Mark Carney’s Saudi Arabia reboot

Summary

Front Burner – "Mark Carney’s Saudi Arabia Reboot"

Host: Jayme Poisson | Guest: Dennis Horak (Former Canadian Ambassador to Saudi Arabia)
Date: July 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode focuses on the historic shift in Canada-Saudi Arabia relations, marked by Prime Minister Mark Carney’s visit to Saudi Arabia—the first by a Canadian PM in 26 years. Jayme Poisson explores the significance of this diplomatic reset, the complex trade, geopolitical, and human rights calculations involved, and contrasts it with the previous government’s approach. Former ambassador Dennis Horak shares first-hand insights into the diplomatic rift of 2018 and assesses the current pragmatic approach.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Significance of Prime Minister Carney's Visit

• Importance in the Region:

  • Face-to-face engagement is highly valued in the Middle East—Canada had been conspicuously absent compared to most of its allies and competitors.
  • “Most of our allies, most of our competitors really have recognized that and have a steady stream of senior visitors into Saudi Arabia. And it’s something that we just didn’t do. So I think that was to our detriment and this is a good correction” (Dennis Horak, 02:36).

• Historic Gap:

  • First Canadian PM visit in 26 years, despite Saudi Arabia being Canada’s second largest trading partner in the Gulf.
  • Previous governments, even when relations were warm, failed to prioritize such a visit due to likely scheduling or logistical issues (03:18).

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Motivations for Renewed Engagement

• Geopolitical and Economic Factors:
  • The government's current global economic diversification strategy sees Saudi Arabia's economic clout and regional influence as key assets.
  • “Saudi Arabia is a major economic power…with global significance in terms of its ability to impact the oil markets, for example, its very large investment fund. So it’s a potentially valuable partner for us.” (Dennis Horak, 04:15)
  • Saudi involvement is crucial in addressing regional volatility, the war with Iran, and instability in the Levant (05:30).
  • Opportunities for inward investment and partnerships abound due to Saudi’s desire to diversify away from oil dependency (06:45–08:01).

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Trade and Strategic Interests

• Economic Synergies:

  • Areas highlighted include mining expertise, critical minerals, nuclear energy, AI, and infrastructure investments.
    • “Canada needs to open up new markets for business and investment...where we're looking at new investments in AI and technology.” (Mark Carney, 07:48)
  • Saudi Arabia seeking to leverage Canada’s sectoral expertise in line with Vision 2030 reforms—mutual desire for diversification.

• Defense Sector:

  • Existing defense trade is significant (light armored vehicles), but future deals may hinge less on large contracts and more on emerging tech (e.g., drones).
    • “The Saudis tend to gear a lot of their arms purchases to building relationships. Sometimes it’s not even about the actual arms…” (Dennis Horak, 09:40)

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The 2018 Diplomatic Crisis: Causes and Fallout

• Background:

  • Relations collapsed after a strong tweet from Canada criticizing the arrest of Saudi women’s rights activists.
  • Horak was expelled; economic and educational relations downgraded.
    • “The Trudeau government had no time for Saudi Arabia whatsoever, was highly critical…There was a reluctance to even acknowledge the positive aspects of some of these reforms.” (Dennis Horak, 12:06)
  • Tweet was posted in both English and Arabic, seen as interfering in Saudi affairs.
    • “It was somehow perceived…as a new step we were taking to…influence Saudis, or at least that's how it was being presented, which just not true.” (Dennis Horak, 16:35)

• Diplomatic Missteps:

  • Horak critical of the government’s handling: language in the tweet was unnecessarily harsh, and there was a lack of direct communication from top officials to those affected.
    • “Minister Freeland never picked up the phone and spoke with me…there was no interest in talking with me about this, which I think is also sends a signal.” (Dennis Horak, 18:07)
    • Notable contrast with previous crisis management: “Minister Baird immediately got on the phone to me…to give some sort of reassurance to the staff. That’s what a minister should do.” (Dennis Horak, 19:59)

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Human Rights, Arms Sales, and Policy Contradictions

• Human Rights Rhetoric vs. Policy Decisions:
  • Despite tough stances, Canada maintained lucrative arms deals (notably, $15B deal for light armored vehicles initiated under Harper and honored under Trudeau) and continued arms exports amid the Yemen conflict.
  • “Governments have to make those kinds of compromises based on again, legal, political, reputational risks…” (Dennis Horak, 25:31)
  • Efforts to exit the contracts were hampered by legal and reputational risks, as well as domestic job considerations (26:12).
  • Horak criticizes the efficacy of public human rights advocacy:
    • “The audience for those tweets is to get likes in Canada...It makes you feel good. It does nothing to change the situation.” (Dennis Horak, 27:40)

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The New Pragmatic Approach: Carney Government’s Shift

• “Engagement Gives You Access”

  • The new government pursues a dual policy: deep engagement with Saudi Arabia while reserving the right to raise concerns.
  • “It’s a much more pragmatic, much more…I think, mature…approach…most countries in the world take with Saudi Arabia…” (Dennis Horak, 28:26)
  • “Lecturing countries from afar is an ineffective strategy. It’s satisfying, but it’s ineffective. Engagement can be effective.” (Mark Carney, 29:30)

• Long-term Influence

  • Example: Thousands of Saudis have studied in Canada, gone home as agents of change—a more substantial impact than official statements.
    • “That had much more of an impact on the lives of Saudi women than any number of tweets…” (Dennis Horak, 29:46)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Symbolism of the Visit:

  • “They played an absolutely flawless O Canada. And they have not played O Canada for 26 years because that's when the last Canadian prime minister...” (Mark Carney, 01:18)

• On Diplomacy and Human Rights:

  • “You can maintain normal levels of diplomatic relations with them at the same time. Having full diplomatic relations is not approval of a particular country.” (Dennis Horak, 21:48)

• On Realpolitik:

  • “The audience for those tweets isn’t the country. The audience...is to get likes in Canada and...thumbs up. It makes you feel good. It does nothing to change the situation.” (Dennis Horak, 27:40)

• On the Carney Shift:

  • “Engagement gives you access and access gives you an opportunity for influence. Whether that influence will be effective, who knows.“ (Dennis Horak, 28:26)
  • “Lecturing countries from afar is an ineffective strategy. It's satisfying, but it's ineffective.“ (Mark Carney, 29:30)

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Timestamps for Key Sections

• 00:35–02:25 — Setting the scene: Carney’s visit and context for Canada–Saudi relations
• 02:26–06:29 — Importance of the visit and current strategic rationale
• 06:29–09:40 — Economic opportunities and sectors of interest
• 09:40–10:54 — Defense relations and implications
• 11:27–16:10 — 2018 Diplomatic rupture: causes and diplomatic aftermath
• 16:10–19:59 — Critique of government handling and diplomatic protocol
• 20:35–22:55 — Human rights vs. engagement: Khashoggi and realpolitik
• 22:55–25:31 — Arms sales, Yemen, and policy contradictions
• 26:47–29:46 — Hypocrisy, the limits of rhetoric, and policy rationale
• 28:26–30:59 — Carney’s pragmatic approach and soft power examples

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Summary Conclusion

This episode provides a nuanced exploration of the recent reboot in Canada–Saudi relations, spotlighting the practical and moral tensions. Through Dennis Horak’s candid account, listeners gain rare insight into how domestic priorities, diplomatic style, and international realpolitik collide. The Carney government’s shift marks not just a policy correction but a broader reflection on how Canada balances principles and interests in a complex world.

Transcript

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[Jamie Poisson]

Hey everybody, I'm Jamie Poisson. Mark Carney, coming off his trip to Turkey for the NATO summit, headed to Saudi Arabia at the end of this week. Meeting with Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, he aiming to deepen the relationship between the two countries on things like AI and critical minerals.

[Mark Carney]

I complimented his Royal Highness this afternoon on many things, his leadership, his vision, his attention to execution and action.

[Jamie Poisson]

The Prime Minister also had some praise for the royal household's military band, but

[Mark Carney]

I also complimented him on the quality of the military band of the royal household because they played an absolutely flawless O Canada. And they have not played o Canada for 26 years because that's when the last Canadian prime minister.

[Jamie Poisson]

Yes, it has been 26 years since a Canadian prime minister visited the country despite the fact that they are a major trading partner, our second largest in the Gulf. But that relationship has come with friction over things like Saudi Arabia's war in Yemen, human rights abuses and political repression at home. Canadian Saudi relations hit an all time low during Justin Trudeau's tenure and Dennis Horak was expelled from his post as Canada's ambassador in 2018. Now, almost eight years later, he is applauding this move by the current government to renew the relationship. And he's here to talk about that with me. So let's get straight to it. Dennis, thank you so much for coming back onto Front Burner. It's great to have you.

[Dennis Horak]

My pleasure.

[Jamie Poisson]

Just to start, how significant is it that for the first time in 26 years a Canadian Prime Minister is visiting Saudi Arabia?

[Dennis Horak]

I think it's very important. First of all, in that part of the world in particular, they put a lot of value in face to face engagement, face to face contact, and most of our allies, most of our competitors really have recognized that and have a steady stream of senior visitors into Saudi Arabia. And it's something that we just didn't do. So I think that was to our detriment and this is a good correction

[Jamie Poisson]

and I know we're going to get into this very dramatic break that we had with the kingdom in 2018 in more detail in a little bit. But just why has it taken 26 years even? Stephen Harper had much warmer relations with Saudi than the Trudeau government and he still didn't go.

[Dennis Horak]

Yeah, I'm surprised by that myself, actually. I was surprised at the time. I was in, I was in Ottawa for some of the period that that Harper was prime minister and I was working in the Middle east bureau. So it was something because as you say there, there was a lot of emphasis placed on by the Harper government on relations with the Gulf states. It may have just been scheduling problems or there may have been other issues. It's not clear. I mean, they certainly had good relations with Saudi Arabia. We signed a major defense agreement time. And it was a surprise. I have no particular explanation for. It just may have been circumstances at the time. There was an aging king at the time, et cetera. So there could have been a variety of different logistical factors. It certainly wasn't an ideological concern.

[Jamie Poisson]

Just flesh out for me why the government is saying that it is particularly important for them to strengthen relations with Saudi Arabia right now and why you think it's particularly important for them to do that as well.

[Dennis Horak]

Well, I think there's a couple of factors at play here. Certainly it's part of the government's global economic diversification efforts that we've seen this across across the world, frankly, the prime Minister has gone around trying to develop new economic partnerships with a variety of countries in Asia, Latin America, elsewhere. So I think it's part of that process. And Saudi Arabia is a major economic power certainly in the region and also with global significance in terms of its ability to impact the oil markets, for example, it's very large investment fund. So it's, it's a potentially valuable partner for us. Also, they're opening themselves up more to inward investment and there may be opportunities for Canada there. On top of that, you also have a region, as we've seen over the past four months in particular, that is potentially very volatile with global implications as we've seen since the war in Iran. Saudi Arabia is a key player in this region geopolitically. They have a dependence on the movement of goods through the Strait of Hormuz. And so that's an issue I think that certainly the government will be talking with the Saudis about. But also what they see in terms of where this conflict with Iran is going, what are the longer term implications, what role is Saudi or can other countries play in helping to try and stabilize the region? Additionally, you have the issue of the Levant, if you will, Gaza, Lebanon, all of those issues where Saudi potentially can also be a partner in terms of reconstruction in Gaza, for example, or trying to bolster the Lebanese government as they're trying to face off against Hezbollah. So there are a variety of factors, a variety areas and issues that Saudi Arabia can be and traditionally have been influential players. And I think it's important for Canada to sort of get a sense of that and where they are, what they're doing. Are there synergies in terms of what we can contribute to the pro, these various processes, but also largely just getting information, helping us develop our approach, helping us develop our policy?

[Jamie Poisson]

Just on the trade stuff, I just want to get into a little bit more with you, what it is that we want from Saudi Arabia and what they could give or take from us. Carney was talking about things like mining,

[Mark Carney]

expertise in mining, critical minerals and mining. New Canadian engineering partnerships are working on some of the most ambitious mining projects here, unlocking over $2 trillion of mineral

[Jamie Poisson]

wealth, specifically nuclear energy and expertise in that infrastructure investments on both sides. AI Just talk to me a little bit more about what it is we're talking about here when we're talking about a deepening economic relationship.

[Dennis Horak]

Yeah, there's a variety of opportunities. Saudi since this Vision 2030 came in 2016, part of it has been economic and social reforms focus in large part on also diversification of their own economy to try and lessen their dependence on oil, to look at mining, for example. And there have been efforts over the years, even before that, to try and develop their minds. And Canada has had some cooperation with them on that. And I think there's going to be greater emphasis on that. The Saudis are also looking to get into AI in a big way, and there may be synergies for Canada there.

[Mark Carney]

Prime Minister Carney says Canada needs to open up new markets for business and investment. And that's why we're now here in Saudi Arabia and in Riyadh, where we're looking at new investments in AI and technology.

[Dennis Horak]

And so I think they'll be looking at a broad scope of opportunities to try and take advantage of the diversification efforts that the Saudis are undertaking in a big way and pouring money into domestically. Also, the Saudis have a large public investment fund, and there perhaps are opportunities for Saudis to increase their investments in Canada, infrastructure, various other things. Perhaps they're looking to diversify their partnerships as well, and Canada provides some opportunities for them. They've already invested, for example, they invested years ago in the Canadian Wheat Board. But there may be other opportunities as well for them to invest in, in other areas that are priority for Canada. So I think we're coming to Saudi Arabia at a time building the relationship at a time when both countries are looking to diversify and looking for partners in those diversification efforts.

[Jamie Poisson]

You know, up until now, I mean, even though these, the diplomatic relations between the two countries have been incredibly strained, we have been trading quite a bit with the Saudis. Carney pointed out that this is our

[Mark Carney]

second largest trading relationship in the Gulf. The private sector has kept the relationship alive, the commercial relationship alive, but we barely scratched the potential of the relationship. And today is part of the next

[Jamie Poisson]

phase of building out totaling $3.5 billion last year. And I know that one of our top exports to the kingdom includes these LE light armored vehicles. Will the defense industry be a key part of the relationship moving forward as well?

[Dennis Horak]

It could be. I'm not sure we're going to get the kind of contract, large contract we had with the light armored vehicle contract. We'll see. It depends on what the Saudis are looking to do in terms of their own purchases. The Saudis tend to gear a lot of their arms purchases to building relationships. Sometimes it's not even about the actual arms they're importing. It's about the relationship that that arms deal both supports and underscores. So for example, vast majority of what they've imported has been from the United States reflecting the security partnership they have with the United States, also the quality of American military goods, but also with Britain and France and other countries. Now I don't think they're looking for that sort of strategic partnership with Canada, although perhaps. But they're as they're looking to sort of learn the lessons from this war with Iran. Maybe there are opportunities for Canada on drone technology for example, or counter drone technology, so aviation, that sort of thing. And so there may be opportunities there.

[Podcast Narrator]

Jacqueline Furlan Smith, a 40 year old former Canadian military trainer moves to Costa Rica to follow her dreams. But in the summer of 2021 vanishes without a trace.

[Narrator/Reporter]

How can a woman just go missing and us put out all that effort to find her? And she's still missing.

[Podcast Narrator]

I'm David Ridgeon and this is Someone knows something Season 10, the Jacqueline Furlan Smith Case. Listen ad free on Amazon.

[Jamie Poisson]

So I want to pivot now a little bit to how we got here, to this kind of resetting of the relationship that we're seeing this week. If you think that that's a fair characterization Canada and the Saudis have been moving closer together after they normalized diplomatic relations and appointed ambassadors in 2023. But you were embroiled in this enormous fallout in 2018 when you were expelled from your position as ambassador to Saudi Arabia. And it came after a tweet by Global affairs and then Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland. Remind me about this tweet. And then what ensued.

[Dennis Horak]

The context of the tweet was that the Trudeau government had no time for Saudi Arabia whatsoever, was highly critical of Saudi Arabia.

[Jamie Poisson]

I'm prepared to speak up for Saudi women, and I think our entire government is.

[Dennis Horak]

Even as Saudis started to institute These

[Narrator/Reporter]

reforms, Vision 2030, a massive makeover for the country, aimed at modernizing and diversifying the country's economy and culture. Entertainment options suddenly flourished, including the country's first comic convention, where men and women shared the same space, previously not allowed.

[Dennis Horak]

There was a reluctance on the part of the government to even acknowledge the positive aspects of some of these reforms. And if they did say anything positive, it would always be accompanied by a critique of their broader human rights issue or their broader human rights condition. So the Saudis were not fans, let's put it that way. So in the months leading up to the tweet, there had been a tightening of political space. It's sort of the contrast. You had these important and meaningful and real economic and social reforms dealing with, for example, women's employment and driving and all of that, but at the same time, a tightening of political space for political dialogue or political discussion, dissent, if you will. And that was reflected in the spring of 2018 with the arrest of a number of women's rights activists, many of whom had been very active on trying to promote, for example, women's driving. So they were detained, which was a surprise to many of us there, because we had seen this opening, but perhaps they wanted to send a signal that this was not a political opening. This was not opening a space for political dissent or dialogue or discussion in Saudi Arabia. And then subsequently in the summer, and then we also had issues with the spouse of a Canadian, Raif Badawi, who had been detained, and his sister was also active, and she had been detained.

[Narrator/Reporter]

He is a Saudi blogger and human rights activist who was arrested in 2012 for being critical of the authorities. He's been lashed 50 times. His sister, Samer Badawi, is a women's rights activist who has been internationally recognized for her work.

[Dennis Horak]

So some of the side of the minister decided to issue a tweet condemning both the detention of women's rights activists, but also Raif Badawi's sister.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Very alarmed to learn that Samaira Badawi, Raif Badawi's sister, has been imprisoned in Saudi Arabia. Canada stands together with the Badawi family in this difficult time and we continue to strongly call for the release of both Raif and Samir Bedawi. Now, a Global Affairs Department Twitter account also condemned, more broadly the arrest of civil society and women's rights activists and called for their immediate release.

[Dennis Horak]

This has apparently, and the language was a bit harsher than we had used previously. I was on holiday in Canada, as a matter of fact, at the time, so hadn't seen it. I didn't know what had happened and the Saudis had had enough. I spoke with them the day that the tweet came out and they were very upset about it. They phoned me, actually. I was again in Toronto and I was supposed to go back a couple of days later. And I said, look, when I get back, we'll, you know, we can chat about this, we'll talk about this. In the meantime, I'll talk to Ottawa about it. And then later that day, they, they made the statement that I was being expelled and the relationship was being downgraded on a number of different economic levels and, and education exchanges and that sort of thing. So it was, it was a big surprise. General consensus not only of. Amongst Canadians, but amongst colleagues in the, in the region, other countries, that this was a massive reaction. Whether that was intended as a message to other countries, look, this is what can happen if you cross these lines and with very little cost to the Saudis, since we had had very little political, none, virtually no political engagement with them, we were sort of an easy target, but also a target that was a G7 country that was being punished for this. And there are probably a variety of other factors at play there too, but that's basically what happened. And so I couldn't go back.

[Jamie Poisson]

Yeah, I remember that episode also sparked that kind of wild post from that pro Saudi government Twitter account that depicted like a plane flying into the CN Tower, like a 911 attack with that caption is like sticking one's nose where it doesn't belong. He who interferes with what doesn't concern him finds what doesn't please him. Like it was. It got really.

[Dennis Horak]

Yeah, it was. Again, it was way over the top and there was. There was some discussion that we were interfering in their affairs because we had published this tweet also in Arabic, which is something we always did. We always Translated any tweets that were coming from the government, from the minister. We would translate them into Arabic and send them out through the embassy account. I didn't tweet personally at all. We did it normally, but it was somehow perceived as this was a new step we were taking to. Meant to influence Saudis, or at least that's how it was being presented, which just not true.

[Jamie Poisson]

Yeah. You know, you have been pretty critical of how the Trudeau government handled that, too. And just tell me more about the missteps that you think were made there.

[Dennis Horak]

Well, I thought the language on tweet was a little excessive. Demanding an immediate release, I think, was the different language. And I think the Saudis jumped on that, whether that was an excuse or not. But also I think there was quiet satisfaction, to be perfectly honest, that somehow Canada was being punished for standing up for human rights, which was frankly, the only thing on the Trudeau government's agenda with regards to Saudi Arabia. So it's not something I think the government asked for or particularly wanted, but once it had happened, I think they viewed this as perhaps an opportunity to sort of bolster our credentials as a. As a human rights advocate. I mean, it was also interesting to me that given the importance of this relationship, Minister Freeland never picked up the phone and spoke with me.

[Jamie Poisson]

Interesting.

[Dennis Horak]

Yeah. Never spoke with her. Never spoke with the Prime Minister. There was no interest in talking with me about this, which I think is also sends a signal.

[Jamie Poisson]

What's the signal?

[Dennis Horak]

Well, that's really not an important relationship. That we want to know how to fix it. And whether that was the minister's intention or not, I don't know. But I think certainly that was the perception, because it's important as well. You're not just a minister, you're a manager of a department when you're the minister, and you manage a lot of people. And we had the ambassador, our ambassador, me being kicked out of Saudi Arabia, which would obviously upset the staff or concern the staff in Saudi Arabia, local staff in particular, that, are we going to close the embassy? Is the embassy going to close? Are they going to lose their job? And in Saudi Arabia, none of the staff are Saudi. They lose their job, they lose their status in Saudi Arabia. So this was a big deal for them and for me to be able to send a message back, even though I couldn't go back. I mean, I could have done a. I don't know. They didn't have zoom at that point, but a message in any case, saying, look, I spoke to the minister, blah, blah, Blah, you know, that just sort of to reassure them. Couldn't do that. And I don't think there was any interest in us doing that. And to me that's, it's, it's not the way to run a railroad. And I had a contrast when I was in Iran and I was ahead of mission in Iran and the British Embassy was attacked.

[Protester/Voice in Iran]

What began as a protest outside Britain's diplomatic headquarters in Iran became an assault on what demonstrated called a den of spies. Some officers appear to just look on as protesters smashed the symbols of Britain's presence in Iran. We want to show to the entire world our hatred for the British and the American governments. We are here to close the British Embassy forever, as this place is like the US Embassy, a center for spying and should be shut down.

[Dennis Horak]

Minister Baird immediately got on the phone to me to see what was going on and to also let me know, to tell the staff that they were concerned about us. You know, they were monitoring the situation very closely and to give some sort of reassurance to the staff. That's what a minister should do. And the contrast to me, because I lived both of those experiences was telling,

[Jamie Poisson]

You know, I just want to kind of push the, the other side a little bit here that maybe this was a good stand for them to take. Because it wasn't long after in, in October 2018, that Washington Post journalist Jamal Khashoggi went missing after entering the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul.

[CBC Announcer]

Khashoggi, the one time insider crossing the red line. He'd so skillfully treaded the past, daring to criticize the Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.

[Protester/Voice in Iran]

I still see him as a reformer, but he is gathering all power within his hand.

[Jamie Poisson]

Did you order the murder of Jamal Khashoggi?

[Mark Carney]

Absolutely not. This was a heinous crime, but I take full responsibility as a leader in Saudi Arabia, especially since it was.

[Jamie Poisson]

And then the CIA concluded that he was killed and dismembered in a plot approved by the Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. The declassified report says the prince approved a plan to either capture or kill Khashoggi, who had criticized the Saudi regime. You know, I wonder if that incident kind of changed anything for you.

[Dennis Horak]

No. There are countries all over the world that do horrible things and we object to them. And we, and we rightly so we should object to them. We should voice our concerns and we do. But you can maintain normal levels of diplomatic relations with them. At the same time. The Russian government killed Navalny, we didn't kick out the Russian ambassador, we didn't pull our ambassador out because it's an important relationship. You can do both at the same time. Having full diplomatic relations is not approval of a particular country. It doesn't say we agree with everything. It doesn't mean that we, we, we support everything you do. Diplomatic relations are about, very often about maintaining contact and dialogue with countries over the things you disagree about. So I don't think it served our, our interests at all. I mean, again, I think it, what it did was, again, this sense of satisfaction amongst some within Canada that we did the right thing, that we stood up for human rights and look how horrible this country is and look what horrible things that they do.

[Jamie Poisson]

I want to interrogate with you this idea that human rights was the only thing on the Trudeau government's agenda. Right. Because even after this break with the Saudis, they did continue to send arms and armored vehicles to Saudi Arabia, upholding that 15 billion dollar light armored vehicle deal with Stephen Harper that we talked about. And Saudi Arabia has been embroiled in this war with Yemen. And back then the UN called it the worst humanitarian crisis in the world at the time. And I remember that Global affairs came out in 2020 and said that there was no credible evidence that Canadian rifles and vehicles were being used in Yemen. But experts at Project Plowshares and Amnesty International came out with a report the following year refuting that claim. They presented evidence to the contrary, including multiple images from Yemen that showed Canadian vehicles and rifles. And the Trudeau government said that they were looking for a way to get out of the deal, but they didn't. And why did they ultimately not get out of the deal? And do you see a kind of hypocrisy there?

[Dennis Horak]

Well, a couple things. In terms of the use of Canadian vehicles in Yemen, it's a very complicated issue. Depends what they were used for. Were they used for the purposes that were intended? I mean, there was a war going on. And light armored vehicles are to protect soldiers if they're, if they're fighting Houthis that are firing. And there were projectiles being fired from Yemen into Saudi Arabia, so it wasn't Saudi doing all the pounding. So the Saudis, if they went into Yemen, into the border areas and used light armored vehicles to deal with those rockets and other projectiles, that's a legitimate use of the weapons. The reason they were sold, I mean, when you sell weapons, they're going to get used. I mean, that's the reality. But I take your point. It's a little bit more complicated.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Yeah.

[Jamie Poisson]

Still.

[Dennis Horak]

But in terms of the broader question, of is it hypocrisy?

[Jamie Poisson]

Well, I mean, sorry, I'll add one more point. I mean it's not just the human rights abuses that Saudi Arabia was accused of in Yemen. These light armored vehicles have also been used by the Saudis in their crackdowns on the Shia populated areas.

[Dennis Horak]

Well, again, it's a little more complicated than that. It depends which beer. Because you're talking about, you're talking about the Gurkhas, you're talking about the labs. Because the photos that were shown at the time of the labs heading for the area, there's no indication that those ones, the labs were used. And based on the observations of people that I spoke to that were there, there were very different conclusions that were drawn.

[Jamie Poisson]

Though I'm sure there are people who will, who will make the argument that they shouldn't have been used at all.

[Dennis Horak]

No, absolutely, I understand that. And there are many people that say we shouldn't be selling arms, we shouldn't have an arms industry at all. But the fact of the matter is if you have an arms industry, the weapons you're selling are not going to be just be for parade purposes. They're going to be used in war and that's going to mean anyhow. But the product I want to come back to your broader issue is why didn't they cancel it? Yeah, well, partly because there was a contract in place which had legal implications for Canada where we didn't cancel it because the grounds for cancellation were, I don't think were there. The other question was there was thousands of jobs involved in this in Canada and you were going to close this down and undercut Canada's credibility as a supplier not just to Saudi Arabia but by other countries in the future because not all our purchasers are Western European countries. So there was a reputational risk as well. So I think there was a, at that point there was a recognition that there are legal repercussions here, but also reputational implications for canceling contract and also jobs.

[Jamie Poisson]

Yeah. Do you, do you see ultimately a hypocrisy there with, with their kind of feminist foreign policy, human rights rhetoric and what actually happened?

[Dennis Horak]

Yeah, I think, I mean I could, yeah, I see the point. I see the point. Yes, because it was, it was it, you know, it was all about holding Saudi Arabia to account. But you know, don't pay attention to any of the weapons we're selling over here. Governments have to make those kinds of compromises based on again, legal, political, reputational risks, whether that that meant they should have maybe toned down the rhetoric a little bit or maybe the, the reason they up the rhetoric is to sort of try and you know, draw attention to how they were actually on the side of the angels on this one issue and you know, we're forced to do this other one. So it again, it plays into to what the politics of the moment are and what audience you're trying to hit as well. I mean, when we were issuing tweets about human rights situation inside Arabia, frankly any other country the audience there isn't isn't the country, it isn't Saudi Arabia or isn't China. That audience for those tweets is to get likes in Canada amongst other and amongst other like minded organizations or individuals around the world and to get a thumbs up. And that's great. It makes you feel good. It does nothing to change the situation.

[Jamie Poisson]

So now do the contrast for me of how you see this government, this current government, Carney's government, pursuing a very different track.

[Dennis Horak]

Yeah, it's a much more pragmatic, it's a much more, I think mature. It's the kind of approach that frankly most of the countries in the world take with Saudi Arabia that you can, you can engage them, you can talk with them, you can have a, a productive relationship with them and still have concerns about what's going on. I mean I, I talk a lot about a, a simple basic diplomatic formula that engagement gives you access and access gives you an opportunity for influence. Whether that influence will be effective, who knows. But at least you're talking to the right people because you've engaged with them on a variety of other issues. If you're just going to go in and yell at them about human rights, they're not going to listen to you. It's like yelling at your neighbor, dropping the garbage on the end of your street. And if you don't even know the guy's name, he's not going to listen to you. But if you're friendly with him or you have, you have a rapport with them, a relationship with them, maybe if you're complaining about them making a mess at the end of your, your Dr. Way, maybe they'll listen, maybe they won't, who knows. But it's that sort of a simple basic human interaction.

[Mark Carney]

Lecturing countries from afar is an ineffective strategy. It's satisfying, but it's ineffective. Engagement can be effective. It doesn't mean it's always effective, doesn't mean it's decisive. It can be effective.

[Dennis Horak]

So I think the Carney government, as I said, as do most, most governments in the world have this sort of sense of we can do both. We can have engagement, and we can also raise concerns when we have them because we have the opportunity to do that in a way that's perhaps more effective and to perhaps also have influence on the ground in a way that really affects people's lives. And there were examples when I was there about the kind of relationship we had with Saudi Arabia. The education one piece is a classic example. There were thousands and thousands of Saudis who studied in Canada, not just medicine, but other fields as well, many of whom went back to Saudi Arabia being agents of change came back to Saudi Arabia with a different perspective on things. One guy who was at St. Mary's he went back and started a company solely geared to helping women enter the workforce. And whether he would have done that had he not gone to St. Mary's I don't know. But the fact is he did. And that had much more of an impact on the lives of Saudi women than any number of tweets that could have been issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

[Jamie Poisson]

That feels like a good place for us. And Dennis, thank you as always. It's really great to have you on and to hear your thoughts.

[Dennis Horak]

My pleasure.

[Jamie Poisson]

All right, that is all for today. Front Burner was produced this week by Joytha Shankupta, Matthew Amaha, Kevin Sexton, Mitchell Stewart and MacKenzie Cameron. Our YouTube producer is John Lee. Our music is by Joseph Shabazin. Our senior producers are Elaine Chow and Imogen Burchard. Our executive producer is Nick McCabe. Blocos. I'm JB Puesome. Talk to you next week.

[Podcast Narrator]

For more cbc podcasts, go to cbc ca podcasts.