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Front Burner
Pete Hegseth: the Iran war’s chief promoter
00:30:14
<p>U.S. Secretary of War Pete Hegseth is one of the figures central to the ongoing war in Iran. Critics say that the former Fox News host is both dangerous and completely out of his depth. He has made headlines recently for promising “death and destruction," picking fights with the media, and using Christian rhetoric to justify war.</p><p><br></p><p>The Guardian's Washington bureau chief David Smith joins us to talk about the man who heads the world’s most powerful military. What is Hegseth’s worldview? How does his past shape what we are seeing from him now? And just how much influence does he wield?</p><p><br></p><p>For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: <a href="https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts</a></p>
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, I'm Darina, co founder of Quo. If you run a business, you know the team that responds first wins the customer. You've probably opened your phone to a bunch of missed calls and no voicemails. Those are missed opportunities and exactly why we built Quo. Cuo is the business phone system that helps your team handle every call and text right away. Join over 90,000 businesses that win more customers with Quo. Try Quo for free@quo.com tech. That's quo.com tech.
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B
This is a CBC podcast.
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C
Hi, everyone. I'm Jamie Poisson.
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B
Today we gather to recognize that our rights here in this great country come from a loving and benevolent God, not government. America was founded as a Christian nation. It remains a Christian nation in our DNA, if we can keep it.
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C
This is Pete Hegseth, the newly rebranded Secretary of war, speaking at a national prayer breakfast in Washington last month. The former Fox News host, who critics say is both dangerous and completely out of his depth, has become one of the central figures in the war with Iran. Today on the show, we're going to dig into the man who now heads the world's most powerful military. What is his worldview? How does his past shape what we're seeing from him now? Importantly, his embrace of Christian nationalism? And just how much influence does he actually wield? With me now is David Smith, the Guardian's Washington bureau chief. David, hi. Thanks so much for coming on.
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D
Hi. Great to be here.
- [01:53]
C
It's really great to have you. So let's start with the way Hegseth has been talking about the war. He's promised, for example, death and destruction
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B
from the sky all day long. He said last week, we will keep pushing, keep advancing. No quarter, no mercy for our enemies.
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C
I've seen experts say no quarter essentially means take no prisoner. So just like kill, shoot to kill. And just what kind of message is he sending with language like this?
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D
Yeah, Pete Hexith is brash and belligerent and bellicose, and he's really sending a message that might is right, that America is all powerful, has the most powerful military the world has ever seen, and intends to use it without mercy and just grind enemies into the ground. All the guardrails, all the rules of engagement, all the hesitation that other commanders in chief might have had about using that awesome firepower put aside, Hegseth is very much red blooded, red meat. We are the most powerful nation on earth and we're going to impose our will on the planet. And anybody who stands in our way will be blasted aside.
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C
Just a few more lines. I had written down no stupid rules
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B
of engagement, no nation building quagmire. Maximum lethality, not tepid legality, violent effect, not politically correct.
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C
You mentioned, like past commanders in chief, just how is it different from how we have heard other commanders in chief, but also secretaries of defense talking about war in the past?
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D
I think one illustration of that is the name of this operation, because sometimes these wars are framed with names such as Operation Enduring Freedom. There's that notion that this is about defending democracy and human rights, even though some would raise questions over how true that was in many cases. But this one is called Operation Epic Fury.
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B
I stand before you today with one unmistakable message about Operation Epic Fury. America is winning decisively, devastatingly, and without mercy.
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D
And that, I think, speaks to the rage that it embodies in many ways. And Peter Hexif himself personifies a break from that past. We've seen past defense secretaries being much more somber statesmen with some gravitas and measuring their words and being careful at press briefings to, first of all, pay tribute to American servicemen and women who've died and show at least some sensitivity to those critics who say America is a global bully sometimes and uses its force crudely. Exith is very much, his critics would say, a cartoon version, a Fox News personality. It's all about showmanship and displaying that American firepower and, you know, owning the libs, as in sort of winding up political foes.
- [05:14]
C
Yeah. Just on your point about American lives, he received quite a lot of criticism recently. Right. For being too flippant about US Casualties. Can you tell me a bit more about that?
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D
Yes. I mean, we've obviously got more than a dozen American servicemen and women killed so far in this conflict. And there was a Pentagon press briefing, and when the issue was raised, Hexus basically attacked the messenger and said, where's the effect of this?
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B
Is what the fake news misses. We've taken control of Iran's airspace and waterways without boots on the ground, we control their fate. But when a few drones get through or tragic things happen, it's front page news. I get it. The press only wants to make the president look bad, but try for once to report the reality.
- [06:09]
D
That was in contrast to the military general standing at his side, who was much more traditional in opening his remarks honoring the war dead. And there was a lot of criticism of Hegseth for that. And there has been of Trump as well for really playing down US Losses and trying to make it all about the media.
- [06:29]
B
For example, a banner or a headline Mideast war intensifies splashing on the screen the last couple of days alongside visuals of civilian or energy targets that Iran has hit, because that's what they do. What should the banner read instead? How about Iran? Increasingly desperate because they are. They know it and so do you.
- [07:03]
C
One thing that has really stood out to me is just how visible Hagseth has been in all of this. Press conferences, interviews. And would it be fair to say that he has effectively become the public salesman for the war?
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D
Yes, I think alongside Trump himself, of course is. Is always talking and doing phone interviews with reporters. But Exith, again, I think he was chosen for this role by Trump because of his history as a host on, on Fox News. He, he fits Trump's idea of what is telegenic or what Trump would call central casting. And he's been doing these 8am Press briefings at the Pentagon with this bellicose, macho, muscular language about the operation, you know, saying that our enemies are toast and they know it and using phrases like that. And certainly celebrating, as you mentioned, this idea that we no longer shackled by rules of engagement. And yes, Hegseth is very prominent publicly and does, I think, personify does embody what this operation is about in terms of attack first, ask questions later. You never apologize. And he's of a piece with these lurid glossy videos that have been released by the White House that are intercutting actual war footage with movie clips and video games and pictures of Hykset himself.
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C
I'm here to fight for truth and
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B
justice in the American way. I am the danger time to find out.
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D
Maximum effort.
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C
I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on behind the scenes. Do we know whether he's actually shaping strategy or whether he's just really been tasked with amplifying decisions being made by others?
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D
That's interesting. I think it's more the latter. I think he's an amplifier and a public face and a spokesperson. Hegseth is hugely inexperienced for a government role and I think quite light on political ideology. He's not a deep thinker about these issues and what views he does have perhaps were shaped by his own experience serving Afghanistan and Iraq. But there's very little sense, I think, certainly from what I'm hearing, that he is leading Trump into this. He's more reflecting what Trump wants to do. I think it's a notable contrast, for example, from when Donald Rumsfeld was the defense secretary during the 2003 war in Iraq.
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E
Iraq belongs to the Iraqis and we do not aspire to own it or run it. We hope to eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and to help liberate the Iraqi people from oppression. If the United States were to lead an international coalition in Iraq, and let there be no doubt, it would be a very large one, we would be guided by two commitments, to stay as long as necessary and to leave as soon as possible.
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D
There was a sense then that he was one of the neoconservatives who had a very clear ideological view about nation building, about imposing democracy on the Middle east, and was leading George W. Bush in that direction, with Bush himself. Perhaps not being a great ideological intellect, some would say, but in this instance, I think Hegseth is more reflective, more of an enforcer, more of a spokesperson.
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C
Yeah, I mean, to that point, people might remember that big speech that Hegseth gave when he. I think it was when he hard launched the Department of War where he called out like, fat generals.
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B
It's tiring to look out at combat formations or really any formation and see fat troops. Likewise, it's completely unacceptable to see fat generals and admirals in the halls of the Pentagon and leading commands around the country and the world. It's a bad look. It is bad. And it's not who we are.
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C
Male level standards for physical fitness for women.
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B
Any job that requires physical power to perform in combat, those physical standards must be high and gender neutral. If women can make it, excellent. If not, it is what it is. If that means no women qualify for some combat jobs, so be it.
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C
He's been on this anti DEI crusade.
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B
No more identity months. DEI offices, dudes in dresses. No more climate change worship. No more division distraction or gender delusions.
- [11:44]
C
But when it comes, he's talked about, as we just said, things like not engaging with stupid rules of engagement. And, you know, would you say that this is mostly kind of symbolic culture war stuff, or have there been real structural changes happening inside the military that might actually have an impact on this war?
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D
Yeah, a bit of both, I think. I mean, yeah, first and foremost, Hexith is a culture warrior. And even at university he was writing about abortion and homosexuality from a very right wing viewpoint. And all his years on Fox News, so much of it is about throwing red meat to the Trump base and no less importantly, just saying things that will provoke and rile up liberals and make them tear their hair out. And he's certainly said dispatching things about women in the military in the past, for example. But there have been important changes at the Pentagon as well in terms of people who've been fired, and that includes some of those who might have brought expertise to the Iran situation. Also some who are more perhaps moderate figures who might have put the brakes on such as there has been restructuring there. It's been in a hexus leaning direction and that certainly alarms some military veterans watching this from afar.
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C
He complains a lot about press coverage in general, but he's been complaining a lot about press coverage of this war. But I think importantly early on in his tenure, he changed the rules for reporting on the Pentagon. And nearly all traditional outlets gave up their press credentials rather than sign a pledge agreeing to restrictions on their journalism. Now the press corps is made up mostly of these kind of right wing outlets, right? Including former MAGA affiliated congressman Matt Gaetz, conspiracy theorists, lawyers or a loomer. This Lindell TV run by the MyPillow guy. The new York Times has sued the Pentagon arguing these rules violate the First Amendment. And just what does all of this tell you about how Hegseth views the media and I guess accountability in wartime?
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D
Yeah, it speaks volumes. I think many historians and political commentators are watching this and saying it's another sign of America's slide into authoritarianism. It's fundamentally a view that the media exists as an official government mouthpiece, that it should be cheering on our troops overseas and any kind of negative reporting or dissent is somehow intrinsically unpatriotic and should be banished.
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B
Another example of a fake headline that I saw yesterday, war Widening. Here's a real headline for you. For an actual patriotic press. How about Iran Shrinking, going Underground.
- [14:36]
D
And even in the last few days, there's been another incident where some photographers were denied access to the Pentagon because supposedly they've been taking pictures of Hexith that were unflattering. It's straight out of a satire such as Joseph Heller's Catch 22. And there've been again the last few days also some dangerous warnings to the media about their coverage. It does to some observers smack of Russia or North Korea or those kind of regimes. And I will say some of these Pentagon press briefings, there have been more traditional independent outlets allowed in. From what I gather, they've generally been at the back of the room and not getting many questions in with Hegseth. But even so, it's pretty clear that the Trump Hegseth approach is is one of everybody should be on message with this war and not asking too many questions.
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F
Mom, I saw Dylan's dad make dinner, like actually cook and it was straight fire. He said it was Blue Apron assemble and Bake. All the ingredients showed up pre chopped. And he just laid it out on a baking sheet and no cap. Dinner was on the table in like 25 minutes. Apparently it's just chef design and it has like over 40 grams of protein. That's a lot, right? So maybe we try it.
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C
Just saying.
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F
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A
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- [16:44]
C
I want to spend a bit more time with you today trying to understand Hagseth a little bit more. Because, you know, even if he's not making all the strategic decisions behind the scenes, he clearly has one of the most important jobs in the US Administration right now and an enormous amount of power. And this is a guy who almost didn't get confirmed. JD Vance had to break the tie during his confirmation. And you write that his rise to secretary of Defense would have been unthinkable under any other administration.
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D
And why a huge lack of experience for running such an important organization. I think the Pentagon's often described as the world's biggest bureaucracy. And then also Hegseth has a very checkered history that I think under any other administration, this person would not have been nominated in the first place. And if they had, it would have been very quickly dismissed by the Senate as just having too many skeletons in their cupboard. So, yeah, I can talk a bit about the Hexith backstory. He's originally from Minneapolis. He went to Princeton University. He was editor of a conservative student paper there. Obviously an important point in his favor as defence secretary is he is a military veteran. He spent time at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. He went on tours of Iraq and Afghanistan. There's just today a New York Times report, people praising his service in Iraq and Afghanistan, you know, his dedication to the job. But when he came home, things went downhill somewhat and he was involved in two veterans nonprofit organizations where he, he left under a cloud. And people have said he really ran those organizations into the ground. All sorts of allegations against him surfaced of drinking too much alcohol, allegations of sexual misconduct. Even his Own mother wrote an email that was pretty disparaging about his behavior and a severe lack of the right kind of CV or resume required to run such a massive organization as the Pentagon.
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C
Right. And, I mean, even there was an accusation of rape. Right. A woman accused him of raping her in 2017, which, of course, he denied. He did settle with that woman civilly. And you mentioned that email from his mother. I just have a portion of it here. I might read it for people listening. This is from his mother in 2018. You are an abuser of women. That is the ugly truth. And I have no respect for any man that belittles, lies, cheats, sleeps around, and uses women for his own power and ego. You are that man and have been for years. And as your mother, it pains me and embarrasses me to say that, but it is the sad, sad truth. I know that his mom has taken, like, umbrage with it being used widely, but she did write that normally these kind of allegations during a confirmation would sink a nomination like this. And I just. How do you think ultimately Hegseth survived that process politically?
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D
Oh, I think the Donald Trump cult of personality, especially in Trump's second term, he utterly dominates the Republican Party. They are fiercely loyal to him on everything. And, of course, this paradox has been set up now where the more allegations like that surface and the more outcry there is from Democrats and the media, then the more Republicans dig in on their own side for their person. This is Trump's guy, and the media hate him, and the Democrats hate him. Therefore, we're gonna defend him twice. As.
- [21:02]
C
We talked about Hegseth as a soldier, as a media personality, as someone who's had quite a bit of personal turmoil. But a lot of people say that to really understand him, you also need to understand another central thing in his life, and that is religion. And I think it's around the time that Hegseth is having all of this life turmoil that we talked about that he really starts to embrace Christianity.
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B
I grew up as a Christian. My mom was on Fox and Friends. She's wonderful Christian parents. I intellectually was associated with it and understood it, but never really lived it. And it was those moments in those places in my relationship with Jen, as we grew together in Christ, that I become a changed man. Am I a perfect man? No.
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C
Can you tell me more about that and the type of Christianity that he ultimately embraces?
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D
Yeah. Hecseth has repeatedly expressed sympathy for Christianity, nationalism, and this is even written on his body. We've seen photos of him with two tattoos associated with imagery of the Crusaders. One of them is a Jerusalem cross on his chest. Nearby, there's an image of a sword along with the Latin phrase Deus vult, meaning God wills it. This has been historically linked to the Crusades and more recently linked to far right groups. We saw it surface of the January 6, 2021 attack on the US Capitol, for example. And Hegseth has also spoken frequently about these issues. He's written about them. He's got a book that came out in 2020 called American Crusade. He says those who benefit from, quote, Western civilization should thank a crusader. And in various other incidents as well, including a report in the New Yorker magazine that he was once heard drunkenly shouting, kill the Muslims. He really comes over as a hardline Christian nationalist who right now potentially regards America as embarked on a holy war against Islam smiting the Muslims.
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C
And he's previously endorsed the doctrine of sphere sovereignty. And he's been linked to this really well known pastor, Doug Wilson. I wonder if you could tell me more about that.
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D
Yeah. Exodus has spoken of so called sphere sovereignty. This is a worldview that comes from Christian Reconstructionism and some of its more extremist beliefs. It calls for capital punishment for homosexuality and strictly patriarchal families and churches wives being subservient to their husbands. A crucial aspect now to look at this is Hegseth's relationship with a pastor called Doug Wilson, who's at the communion of reformed evangelical churches. Wilson also has this very theocratic vision of society with again, wives being subservient. And it was noted just recently there was a worship service at the Pentagon. Doug Wilson was there.
- [24:18]
B
First of all, thank you for being here.
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D
Thank you.
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B
Thank you for your leadership, for your mentorship, for the things you've started, the truth you've told, your willingness to be bold. It's the type of thing that we're trying to exercise here too, with the monthly worship service.
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D
Hegseth is very open about these somewhat regressive beliefs.
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C
Is there evidence that this worldview is influencing any kind of changes in the Department of War and also influencing how this war right now is being framed and justified?
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D
Organization called the Military Religious Freedom foundation said it's already had more than 200 complaints from members of the military about commanders invoking some of this extremist Christian rhetoric, even about the end times as some kind of justification for this Iran war.
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C
Wow.
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D
Yeah. And I think as well as what's happening internally, this being a potential motive for the battle. It's also, of course, a great propaganda win for Iran, because the Iranian regime can point to these sort of reports and EXIF's embrace of Christian nationalism and say, look, we told you all along America is interested in holy wars. This is about Christian versus Muslims. This is about crushing us.
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C
That seems to me like it could be a problem internally in the military, like, for morale. And in addition to that, I was recently reading this New York Times piece that dove into how this war wasn't being waged with a moral purpose, like democracy or nation building. And of course, we can debate whether that has ever been the case, but in the past, that has been sort of the raison d'. Etre. This war also does not have much public support. And given all of this, how do you think that this, this war could be viewed in the military? Like, how popular is Hegseth and these ideas? And could that be a real problem in terms of, like, morale for the people who actually have to wage a war?
- [26:48]
D
Yes, it could be. I mean, I think a couple of quick points. One is the military, of course, is not a monolith. You know, there's thousands of people there with very divergent views from all sorts of different backgrounds, I think probably running the gamut from fierce Trump supporters to those who are much more skeptical. Second thing I would say, based on my past reporting as an embed with the US Military in Iraq, for example, is there is a very strong bond between the soldiers fighting these missions. They're looking out for their mates and very dedicated, and that tends to take priority over everything else, and that can be exploited by governments. These men and women will do anything for each other, including running into danger and, you know, not necessarily be questioning the bigger, broader purpose of why we're here in the first place. That is open to some exploitation, perhaps. And in this particular context, I have spoken to veterans groups who are in touch with soldiers who are fighting this war, and certainly some of them are questioning it and do not like the approach from Trump and Hegseth, from the rhetoric to the apparent lack of compassion for the Americans who die, to the unwillingness to discuss and own up to the killing, for example, of schoolgirls at an Iranian school on the first day, and certainly object to some of those lurid videos. And so, yes, I think in some cases, it could be terrible for morale to not have a clear framework, not have a clear sort of purpose, not understand why they are there in the first place. But that's one section. There'll be others who are focused on their comrades and fighting for them, others perhaps who do believe that the military should be used in this way and perhaps are even grateful that Heksith, as he says, is taking off the shackles, is not telling them just to stay on some military base for the next decade doing nothing. They perhaps find it exhilarating to be in action with a sense of purpose.
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C
Just as a final question for you today, we've discussed this secretary of war, who rose to power through tv, who has a deeply ideological view of the military, who openly is talking about America in religious terms. But when historians look back at this moment, what role do you think ultimately Hegseth will play?
- [29:35]
D
I think many historians will regard him as a somewhat shameful character in the Trump cinematic universe, so to speak, and a symbol of the chaos and some would say depravity of the Trump era. Just this authoritarian flexing, this projection of US Military power, this failure to engage the public, this very cavalier attitude to civilian casualties. But perhaps one important legacy and reflection for historians will be the muscular, hyper masculine sort of macho posturing that we've seen from Hegseth. And, you know, he feels like a figure from the manosphere, just to use that term that we heard a lot about in the 2024 election. These bros with this new version of masculinity that is denigrating towards women that seems to be seducing a lot of young men who are lacking purpose in their lives, fueled by the Internet and podcasters. And influencers. All of that was seen as pretty significant in Donald Trump's election victory, notably over a woman, of course, in Kamala Harris. And those trends continue. And Hegseth, with his very sort of aggressive, macho language, with his troubling asked regarding women, the allegations he's faced, he really embodies that aspect of Trumpism.
- [31:11]
C
David, thank you for this. Really appreciate it.
- [31:13]
D
Thank you.
- [31:24]
C
All right, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow.
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B
For more cbc podcasts, go to cbc ca podcasts.