The FBI’s controversial Kash Patel

Summary

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Front Burner (CBC)

Episode: The FBI’s controversial Kash Patel
Host: Aaron Wherry (in for Jayme Poisson)
Date: April 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Front Burner delves into the tumultuous tenure of Kash Patel as FBI Director, examining the controversies and policy changes that have marked his leadership. Through an in-depth interview with Mark Fisher (Washington Post veteran and Trump biographer), the podcast explores Patel’s rapid rise, his divisive management style, his politicization of the Bureau, and recent scandalous allegations including misuse of FBI resources and erratic behavior.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Kash Patel’s Path to FBI Director

• Rise to Power:
  • Started as a public defender, became an aide to Republican congressman Devin Nunez, then a Trump administration official.
  • Built reputation as a zealous Trump loyalist, willing "to follow Trump in whatever direction Trump seemed to want to go" (Mark Fisher, 02:28).
  • Disliked by some Trump officials due to his direct access to Trump, which often bypassed the chain of command (03:31).
• Noteworthy Quote:

  "He would arrange for Trump to get his people, his loyalists in the places where Trump wanted him." (Mark Fisher, 03:31)

2. Patel’s Views on the Deep State and the Media

• Ideology:
  • Promoted controversial theories about a "deep state" working to undermine Trump. • Authored book 'Government Gangsters' listing figures he deemed disloyal or treasonous (05:46).
• Media Strategy:
  • Publicly attacks the press while relying on media platforms to broadcast his message.
  • Frequent podcast appearances, including his own "Kash's Corner," to criticize FBI and Democrats.
• Noteworthy Quote:

  "He bashes reporters left and right...At the same time, he is very much available to them and very much needs and uses them to get his messages across." (Mark Fisher, 04:43)

3. Controversial Beliefs and Statements as Public Figure

• Conspiracy Theories:
  • Claims FBI orchestrated January 6th; FBI is corrupt and weaponized (08:14).
  • Suggested China is intentionally using fentanyl to kill Americans (14:26).
• Noteworthy Quotes:

  "He called the FBI essentially a corrupt and politicized organization...He believed that FBI planned the January 6 assault on the Capitol, or at least he said he believed that." (Mark Fisher, 08:14)
  "Their long-term game is this...why don't we go and take out generations...who might grow up to serve...That's what they're doing when you wipe out tens of thousands of Americans a year." (Kash Patel, 14:26)

4. Confirmation and Early Political Fallout

• Senate Skepticism:
  • Faced hostile confirmation hearing, labeled "least qualified FBI director in history" for lack of direct experience (09:49). • Known for denying and deflecting criticism, often referencing media bias.
• Noteworthy Exchange:

  "But when I say that you are the least qualified FBI director in the history of the FBI, that is real, because you are the only one that never even served with the FBI." (Unknown Senator, 09:49)

5. Policy Shifts and Internal Purges

• Major Reorganization:
  • Fired agents involved in Trump investigations, January 6 cases, and those who protested with George Floyd demonstrators (10:58–12:38). • Dismantled corruption investigation units, shifted FBI focus to immigration enforcement.
• Cultural Impact:
  • Morale plummeted; career agents disheartened by politicization and conspiracy embrace.

  "For them to see someone come in and politicize the Bureau in this way has been tremendously dispiriting to them." (Mark Fisher, 13:23)

6. Personal Conduct and Use of FBI Resources

• Incidents:
  • Provided round-the-clock SWAT security for his girlfriend—unprecedented for a non-official (15:47). • Used FBI jet for Olympics trip, appeared in viral locker room video celebrating with US hockey team, sparking backlash (16:33). • Reports of demanding meetings at Premier League games, jet skiing preferences, and other personal perks.
• Effect:
  • Eroded credibility of the Bureau, with concerns about prioritizing personal and political connections over public duty.
• Noteworthy Analysis:

  "He's presenting the image of someone who's more interested in his celebrity than in the actual work of the FBI." (Mark Fisher, 26:59)

7. Most Recent Allegations and Lawsuit

• Atlantic Report:
  • Alleged excessive drinking, unexplained absences, and the need for security to breach his hotel suite (19:18). • Patel filed a $250 million defamation suit in response, echoing Trump’s litigious media tactics (23:37).
• Response to Reporters:

  "I'm the first one in. I'm the last one out… I've never been intoxicated on the job. And that is why we filed a $250 million defamation lawsuit. And any one of you that wants to participate, bring it on. I'll see you in court." (Kash Patel, 25:10)

8. Broader Implications for FBI and Public Safety

• Reorientation:
  • A quarter of agents reassigned to immigration cases, disrupting terrorism and crime prevention (19:43).
• Risks:

  "They are just waiting, clenching their teeth and waiting for the terrorist activities that they think will now happen, that they believe they could have stopped because they have been redirected away from their work..." (Mark Fisher, 19:43)

9. Political Standing and Future Prospects

• Falling Out of Favor:
  • Trump reportedly disappointed in Patel; his role appears precarious after multiple embarrassing incidents (21:28–23:25). • Mark Fisher: “He certainly doesn't seem to be secure in that position right now...I think Patel has a very keen sense that his job is very much on the line.” (Mark Fisher, 23:37)

10. Historical Comparison and Legacy

• Comparison to Hoover:
  • Both politicized agency power; but Hoover—whatever his faults—stressed, “Don’t embarrass the Bureau,” a dictum Patel is seen as violating.

  "...he has blown a hole through what was really the kind of paramount rule in Hoover's FBI, where agents were trained from the very start: whatever you do, don't embarrass the Bureau." (Mark Fisher, 29:43)

• Uncertain Future:
  • The FBI faces the challenge of restoring its reputation and attracting new talent after "the Patel era."

11. Breaking Development (Post-interview)

• NYT Reporter Allegation:
  • New York Times reported the FBI investigated one of their reporters covering Patel—a sign of potential retaliatory use of FBI powers (31:28).

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Memorable Quotes by Timestamp

• "It's completely effing wild. I mean, I don't even know how to describe it... I'd shut down the FBI Hoover Building on day one and reopening the next day as a museum of the deep state."
  — Kash Patel (00:49)
• "Patel really saw the FBI as a rogue organization that was refusing to do the president's bidding."
  — Mark Fisher (08:14)
• "For them to see someone come in and politicize the Bureau in this way has been tremendously dispiriting to them."
  — Mark Fisher (13:23)
• "He's presenting the image of someone who's more interested in his celebrity than in the actual work of the FBI."
  — Mark Fisher (26:59)
• "[Hoover’s] Bureau's rectitude, the Bureau's reputation, was a key element in its ability to fight crime and prevent crime. And I think that that is something that has been lost under Cash Patel..."
  — Mark Fisher (29:43)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:49: Patel on being FBI Director; radical comments
• 02:28: Mark Fisher on Patel’s rise in Washington
• 04:43: Media strategy and approach
• 05:46: Summary of 'Government Gangsters'
• 08:14: Fisher on Patel’s narrative about the FBI
• 10:58: Discussion of policy shifts: purges and realignment
• 13:23: Agent morale and concerns about conspiracy theorizing
• 14:26: Patel's claims about China and fentanyl
• 15:47–16:48: Controversial use of FBI resources; Olympics locker room incident
• 19:18: Atlantic report on drinking and absences
• 19:43: Impact on Bureau priorities, terrorism prevention
• 23:37: Lawsuit against The Atlantic and media tactics
• 25:10: Patel’s combative response to reporters
• 26:59: Mark Fisher on Patel's priorities and comparison to past abuses
• 29:43: Long-term damage to FBI’s professional reputation and internal culture
• 31:28: After-interview update: FBI investigated Times reporter

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Tone and Language

• Direct, analytical, often critical, reflecting both host and guest’s focus on the unprecedented and controversial nature of Patel’s leadership.
• Patel’s own comments remain brash, combative, unapologetically partisan.
• Fisher approaches with the measured skepticism and depth of a veteran investigative reporter.

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Conclusion

This episode paints a vivid, troubling portrait of Kash Patel’s tenure as FBI Director: a tenure marked by deep partisanship, institutional upheaval, and personal scandal. It raises significant questions about the politicization of law enforcement, the role of loyalty in U.S. governance, and the long-term fate of a cornerstone democratic institution.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Commercial Narrator]

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[Mark Fisher]

Again.

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[Aaron Wary]

This is a CBC podcast. Hi, I'm Aaron Wary in for Jamie. What is it like to be the head of the FBI? How weird is that?

[Kash Patel]

It's completely effing wild. I mean, I don't even know how to describe it. Why is it that we had such an explosion in crime to deal with in the first place? Because the prior administration did not prioritize fighting crime. I'd shut down the FBI Hoover Building on day one and reopening the next day as a museum of the deep state.

[Aaron Wary]

That's just a sampling of FBI Director Kash Patel's podcast appearances. He's been in the job for just over a year, and during that time he's radically transformed the bureau and become the subject of a growing list of controversies. Late last week, the Atlantic magazine published a scathing story containing allegations of erratic behavior, excessive drinking, and unexplained absences. In response, Patel filed a $250 million defamation suit against the magazine. So today, the many controversies surrounding Cash Patel, his transformation of the FBI, and the implications for the future of the bureau. Mark Fisher is a former senior editor with the Washington Post and co author of Trump An American Journey of Ambition, Ego, Money, and Power. He reported and wrote a piece for the New Yorker last fall about Cash Patel. Thanks for joining us, Mark.

[Mark Fisher]

Great to be with you.

[Aaron Wary]

Before we talk about the controversies now surrounding Patel, let's start with how he came to be FBI director. He was a public defender for many years, then went to work for a Republican congressman and eventually ended up holding a number of positions in Trump's first administration. How would you summarize his rise to prominence?

[Mark Fisher]

Ash Patel, very much like his mentors along the way, Congressman Devin Nunez and then President Donald Trump, is someone who is extremely concerned with how he's perceived by his superiors and who will seemingly do almost anything, including change his political perspective in order to curry favor with those who can bring him up the ladder. And that's what happened as he made his way in Washington, from someone who, as you mentioned, was a public defender to an arch Conservative who was willing to follow Trump in whatever direction Trump seemed to want to go. And so he, he really sold himself to Trump as someone who would be the ultimate loyalist, who would be beside the President and carry his water, whether it be at the Justice Department, the National Security Council, or as we've now seen at the FBI.

[Aaron Wary]

And in some cases, if I understand correctly, wasn't always liked very well by some of the people in Trump's first administration.

[Mark Fisher]

That's right. And that was in part because he seemed to have a direct connection to Trump and there kind of did an end run around some of the folks who were actually his superiors, such as John Bolton at the National Security Council. Cash had a knack for just appearing at the White House. He arrived at the Oval Office for a meeting that really everyone else there was, well, superior to him. This is back during the first Trump administration. And there he was kind of acting as Trump's eyes and ears, almost serving as kind of a political commissar who would arrange for Trump to get his people, his loyalists in the places where Trump wanted him. He curried favor not only with the president, but with the President's favorite characters on tv, including people like Sean Hannity, the Fox News pundit. How do you have a 91% increase in such a short period of time? Does that mean that the last FBI was not working or they just work and going after Trump?

[Kash Patel]

It's really simple, Sean. The weaponization of law enforcement is over. The American people gave.

[Mark Fisher]

Like Trump himself, Kash Patel has this love hate relationship with the news media in which he bashes reporters left and right.

[Kash Patel]

The simple answer to your question is you are lying. I can say unequivocally that I never listen to the fake news.

[Mark Fisher]

Mafia threatens to sue them, sues them. At the same time, he is very much available to them and very much needs and uses them to get his messages across to the President and to do the president's bidding.

[Aaron Wary]

In 2023, after the Trump first term, Patel publishes a book called Government Gangsters.

[Kash Patel]

The book is finally here. The Biden administration tried to wormhole this manuscript for 10 plus months. We took him to federal court and won. What we talk about in this book is simply how to destroy the deep state. There's a reason Donald Trump calls this the roadmap to winning in 2024.

[Aaron Wary]

For those of us who haven't read it, what is the basic thrust of that book?

[Mark Fisher]

The basic thrust of that book is summed up in an addendum at the back of the book, which is simply a list of the politicians, the political appointees, the reporters and other journalists who Patel believes are, if not treasonous, at least deeply disloyal people who he believes have the government for their own benefit and who have prevented Trump from getting his way. This is all part of Cash Patel's belief that there is this deep state that is controlling the United States, that is really running the government in lieu of the elected representatives of the people. And Patel has had this belief for some years. It especially took off after Trump came to office. And it all stemmed from an odd circumstance. When Patel was a lawy, a prosecutor at the Justice Department, and he was called to Texas to appear before a judge in a case that he was handling. And the judge reamed him out for showing up to court without a suit and tie because Patel had just come back from a trip in order to make the hearing and didn't have the proper attire with him. The judge blasted Patel in open court, and news organizations such as the Washington Post reported on this about this poor young prosecutor who was just ripped to shreds by a judge. The press coverage of that incident stuck with Patel in a very deep and enduring way, turned him against the news media and gave him this sense that the government was filled with people who were undermining people like him, preventing him from rising and preventing people like Trump from advancing a conservative agenda.

[Aaron Wary]

He also has this podcast during the time after the first Trump administration called Cash's Corner, which was funded by the Epoch Times, a right wing news organization linked to the Falun Gong religious group that's been declared illegal by the Chinese government. And he often talked about the FBI on this podcast.

[Kash Patel]

Multiple levels of failures in duty, intentional or otherwise, by people as high as the director of the FBI, the deputy director of the FBI, the head of counterintelligence for the FBI, Peter Strzok, and others on down.

[Aaron Wary]

What kind of things did he say about the Bureau, both on that podcast and elsewhere?

[Mark Fisher]

He called the FBI essentially a corrupt and politicized organization, especially during the Obama and Biden administrations. He believed that the FBI planned the January 6 assault on the Capitol, or at least he said he believed that. Whether he truly did or not is harder to say. He called the FBI corrupt. He demanded that they investigate Anthony Fauci, who was the leader of the public health campaign to curb the COVID epidemic. Patel took it upon himself to defend President Trump in the case where the FBI was investigating Trump's removal of classified documents to Mar A Lago after he left the presidency. So Patel really saw the FBI as a rogue organization that was refusing to do the president's bidding. And he believed that it should be cut severely and that its special agents should be removed from the kinds of prosecutions of corruption and political misdeeds that it was involved in during the first Trump administration and instead oriented more toward the kinds of things that Patel was interested in, such as going after Trump's critics.

[Aaron Wary]

So there was a lot of skepticism about him from Democrats during his confirmation hearing.

[Commercial Narrator]

But when I say that you are the least qualified FBI director in the history of the FBI, that is real, because you are the only one that never even served with the FBI.

[Kash Patel]

You were asked about the police officers in the Capitol who testified in the January 6th hearings, and you accused them of lying.

[Commercial Narrator]

Is that correct or not correct?

[Kash Patel]

I don't think that's accurate. Okay, Joe, packed podcast, March 2024.

[Mark Fisher]

We'll put it on the record.

[Aaron Wary]

What due diligence did you do, Senator?

[Kash Patel]

I didn't record it myself.

[Aaron Wary]

So you did no due diligence before

[Kash Patel]

you promoted this song by these violent felons?

[Aaron Wary]

Is that what you're telling us?

[Mark Fisher]

While we're talking about your awards, let's talk about the cowards in uniform comment

[Kash Patel]

for a moment, can we please?

[Mark Fisher]

Let me just say, right to the point, Mr. Patel, what are you hiding?

[Aaron Wary]

But he's eventually confirmed in the U.S. senate by a vote of 51 to 49. And some Republicans, you know, picking up on his vision frame. This is a as a shakeup that the FBI needed since his confirmation, how has that vision kind of been put into practice, and what has it meant for the direction and focus of the FBI?

[Mark Fisher]

Ash Patel has redirected the priorities of the FBI in an unprecedented fashion. He has taken agents off their assignments, removed them. He's shut down the unit within the FBI that investigates corruption by elected officials. He has fired agents who have worked on the investigations into the January 6th attack. He's fired agents who looked into President Trump's mishandling of classified documents.

[Commercial Narrator]

Now to FBI Director Kash Patel, who has fired at least six agents tied to the 2022 search, President Trump's Mar a Lago estate. That's what six people familiar with the matter tell NBC News. But three of those sources say at least 10 employees were ultimately dismissed.

[Mark Fisher]

He has fired people for expressly what he promised the Senate he would not fire them for, which is for having been assigned to cases that were critical of Donald Trump. He has fired agents who took a knee during a demonstration after the George Floyd murder back in 2020. These were agents who were to build rapport with protesters on the streets. And as part of that effort, they leaned down onto the ground with the demonstrators to sort of not necessarily show their solidarity, but rather to kind of create a relationship with those demonstrators. Patel simply fired them.

[Kash Patel]

Photos show at least some of them kneeling.

[Commercial Narrator]

As many as 20 agents have been dismissed.

[Mark Fisher]

A number of them worked at the

[Commercial Narrator]

Bureau's Washington field office. At least some were reassigned.

[Mark Fisher]

Earlier he fired an agent trainee who had displayed a gay pride flag on his desk. So in many different ways, he has used his authority over the special agents of the FBI to reorient the work of the Bureau and to take vengeance against agents simply because of the cases they'd been assigned to.

[Aaron Wary]

There was an op ed by a former FBI agent in the New York Times, I believe, last fall. She worked for the Bureau for 25 years. And she made the argument that Patel is, quote, consumed by politically motivated revenge and conspiracy theories, distracting the FBI once again from the danger of terrorism, unquote. Have you heard similar concerns in your reporting?

[Mark Fisher]

Yes, absolutely. The special agents of the FBI, who tend to be extremely well prepared, many of them have come to the FBI with training in regional studies. Different parts of the world where there are threats against the United States, many of them are lawyers. This is not just a high level police organization. It's an organization of real experts doing very sensitive work. And for them to see someone come in and politicize the Bureau in this way has been tremendously dispiriting to them. They are particularly bothered, the agents I've spoken to by Kash Patel's proclivity to embrace conspiracy theories. In his interview last year with Joe Rogan, where Patel sat for hours with Rogan and talked about all kinds of conspiracies, like the idea that the Chinese Communist Party was systematically killing Americans with fentanyl in a sort of concerted effort to wipe out tens of thousands of Americans.

[Kash Patel]

Their long term game is this. How do I, in my opinion, kneecap the United States of America, our largest adversary? Well, why don't we go and take out generations of young men and women who might grow up to serve in the United States military or become a cop or become a teacher? And that's what they're doing. When you wipe out tens of thousands

[Mark Fisher]

of Americans a year, many FBI agents are just astonished that their boss believes this kind of stuff.

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[Aaron Wary]

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App Store and claim your bonus Meanwhile, Patel has generated numerous headlines for his own personal behavior and his use of FBI resources. For instance, he's had FBI officers providing security for his girlfriend. We're talking about around the clock SWAT coverage. A statement from the FBI said that this was because of death threats that she faces due to her relationship with Patel, but even FBI sources have said that kind of security was unheard of. There's also been questions about Patel's own travel. He took the FBI's private jet to Italy for the Olympics and was then seen in that viral locker room video after the US Men's hockey team won the gold medal. He was chugging beers with them and there was tons of backlash coming out of that.

[Commercial Narrator]

Patel dismissing critics who questioned why he was in the locker room for the very concerned media, yes, I love America and was extremely humbled when my friends, the newly minted gold medal winners on Team usa, invited me into the locker room to celebrate this historic moment with the boys.

[Aaron Wary]

This is on top of what reportedly happened last May ahead of a five eyes conference where he is said to have wanted to attend Premier League games and to Jet Ski because he doesn't like office meetings. What kind of cumulative impact did this kind of behavior caught on tape in one case have on the Bureau more widely?

[Mark Fisher]

I think it's had a very deleterious effect in that the FBI certainly has had its problems in the past and during the extremely long reign of J. Edgar Hoover, who was the Bureau's first and most influential director. There were instances certainly in which the FBI failed to do its job and instead was politically oriented, oriented toward investigations that may have helped the current administration. That said, the work of the FBI, both on the crime front and in terms of preventing terrorism, has been deeply respected by Americans, in part because the FBI had a really good PR campaign going for decades in which TV shows dramas gave Americans this sense that the G Men of the FBI got their man and that they would get out there and catch the kidnappers, catch the crooks and all of that. So part of that is Hollywood hype, but part of that was based on truth. Along comes Kash Patel and he's kind of undermining this sense of efficiency and smarts on the part of the G men of the FBI. And when he flies off to Nashville to visit his girlfriend using the FBI jet when he heads to a ranch in Texas to stay at a Republican donors resort when he he is called upon to react to the shooting of Charlie Kirk, the conservative activist, and he has to leave a dinner in Manhattan and rush in and arrive late and then issue an unfounded accusation against a purported criminal in that case. This all undermines the credibility of the FBI in ways that agents are deeply affected by. And certainly I think the American public feels that this is no longer the kind of nonpartisan and efficient law enforcement force that they'd perceived it as earlier.

[Aaron Wary]

And now we have these allegations of excessive drinking, unexplained absences. As reported in the Atlantic, the story

[Commercial Narrator]

claims on multiple occasions the director security detail had difficulty waking Patel and states that a request was made late last year for breaching equipment to gain entry.

[Aaron Wary]

To state the obvious, the FBI handles some of the most sensitive national security files in the United States, if not the world. You know, what are the implications for Patel's behavior on the work of the FBI?

[Mark Fisher]

This is an FBI where fully one quarter of the agents have been redirected away from their previous assignments to work on immigration cases, to work supporting ICE and Homeland Security in the identification, capture and deportation of illegal immigrants. That is not the FBI's job. The agents who have been forced to make this pivot resent it and feel that they are being taken away from vital work preventing terrorism and going after drug dealers and that sort of thing. So it's had a terrible effect within the FBI. And the FBI agents tell me that they believe it's had the effect of making the United States a less safe place. And they are just waiting, clenching their teeth and waiting for the terrorist activities that they think will now happen, that they believe they could have stopped because they have been redirected away from their work to would essentially be support staff for ice.

[Aaron Wary]

You mentioned the investigation into Charlie Kirk's assassination. Patel was heavily criticized during that because he declared on social media minutes before government officials were going to brief on what happened, that there was a suspect in custody, only to be contradicted moments later. How would you describe the Fallout from that. And how significant is it that something like that has happened?

[Mark Fisher]

It's just one and one very large piece of a bigger picture in which Kash Patel has been unreliable as a source of information. He has been quick to make accusations that he then has to either back down from or simply slink away from. And. And all of this has an impact on the credibility of the FBI as well as on Patel himself. And this is something where just in recent days, we've seen more and more reports coming from Trump's inner circle that Patel is in trouble. This goes back some weeks or months, actually, in which the President was said to be disappointed that Patel has not been a better representative of the administration. On tv. We know that the President judges a lot of his Cabinet members and top appointees according to how well they come off on television, how well they represent him and his administration. And he believes that Patel has failed at that. The rashness with which he named a subject in custody after the Kirk shooting is one example. There are others. And certainly these expensive travels and the appearance with the hockey team at the Olympics, all of these incidents in which Patel is appearing in very embarrassing, embarrassing ways, has undermined the President's confidence in Patel. And just before Attorney General Pam Bondi was removed by the President, it looked as if either one of them was next to go. As we start to see Cabinet members removed from this administration after its first year, as it turned out, it was Bondi who was removed. But I think Patel has a very keen sense that his job is very much on the line right now.

[Aaron Wary]

Yeah. Do you think. I mean, these concerns were raised in the Atlantic piece that Patel himself was worried about his job. Do you think it's likely that he will be relieved of his duties?

[Mark Fisher]

He certainly doesn't seem to be secure in that position right now. And that's why I think we're seeing him lashing out at that Atlantic story, filing a $250 million defamation lawsuit. This is something that is very much a page out of the Trump playbook. And Patel sort of followed his mentor in this fashion many times before. He has sued various news organizations. In fact, just today, as a matter of fact, a different federal judge in a different lawsuit, this one that Patel filed against somebody at msnow, the former MSNBC channel, in which they had reported that Patel has been more visible at nightclubs than he has been at the FBI headquarters. The judge dismissed that case, saying that. That any person of reasonable intelligence would not have taken that statement literally, and therefore, it cannot be defamation. But this is classic Trump relations with the press, in which, as Trump once told me, he sues news media not to win those cases. He knows he can't win them, but rather to destroy the reporter, to destroy the news organization, to make them spend larger sums on their legal defense and to try to chip away at their reputation.

[Aaron Wary]

We've also heard him field reporters questions about the allegations in the Atlantic, which led to some pretty heated exchanges.

[Kash Patel]

I'm on the job. I'm the first one in. I'm the last one out. I'm like an everyday American who loves his country, loves the sport of hockey, and champions my friends when they raise a gold medal and invite me in to celebrate. I've never been intoxicated on the job. And that is why we filed a $250 million defamation lawsuit. And any one of you that wants to participate, bring it on. I'll see you in court. The problem with you and your report, don't cut me off. You asked a question, straightforward question. The problem with you and your baseless reporting is that is an absolute lie. It was never said. It never happened. And I will serve in this administration as long as the president, the Attorney General want me to do so.

[Aaron Wary]

Does that fit within what you're referring to, sort of going on the offensive when you're faced with negative media reports?

[Mark Fisher]

Absolutely. This is classic Trump playbook. Patel came out and said, I've never been intoxicated on the job, and that's why I'm filing this lawsuit. And if any one of you wants to have one of these lawsuits, I'm happy to provide that. So he is being aggressive. As Trump always says, the idea is to win at any cost, and when you're criticized, to turn the tables and attack, attack, attack. Trump has these acolytes throughout the administration, Kash Patel being a very premier example of that and very much copying the president's approach.

[Aaron Wary]

In that piece last fall for the New Yorker, you mentioned that case of William Sessions, who, as you write, was fired as FBI director in 93 because he had used FBI aircraft to visit friends and relatives, often with his wife. Was that just a simpler time? Given the Sessions example, are you surprised that Patel hasn't faced greater consequences?

[Mark Fisher]

Well, it's especially ironic since Patel himself criticized Sessions and other members of Democratic administrations who used government jets for their own personal trips. And it's also true that the FBI director is required to travel on the government's jets rather than on commercial airliners for security reasons, so that there's ample justification for Patel to use the FBI's jet. The question then becomes, is it proper for him to be spending all this time going to Ultimate Fighting Championship bouts in Nevada, going to visit his girlfriend in Nashville, going to hang out with the hockey team in Italy, all of these trips, quite frequent trips to Nevada, which is technically Patel's home. This is is all part of the broader picture of Patel seemingly not being terribly devoted to his actual job. There are complaints from a lot of agents at the FBI that he doesn't show up to some of the mandatory meetings, some of the routine jobs of the FBI director. So this is in one sense a perennial issue in the government where one, one party is always accusing the other of abusing the system and taking advantage of the perks of office. But it's also at another level, a step beyond that, in which Patel really does seem to spend an inordinate amount of time heading off to events where he's there for his own entertainment, whether it's sitting cageside with Mel Gibson, the actor, or sitting with Trump at a fight in Miami. He's presenting the image of someone who's more interested in his celebrity than in the actual work of the FBI.

[Aaron Wary]

You mentioned Hoover and his legacy, and I'm wondering if we can sort of end on that, that idea. You know, I think in a lot of ways the FBI is still defined by that first director, J. Edgar Hoover. And he sort of built the idea, as you say, of the FBI as a very professional, very powerful law enforcement agency, maybe the most famous law enforcement agency in the world. But he also used the powers of his agency for political purposes. How does Kash Patel's tenure, however much longer it lasts, fit into that longer history? And where do you think the Bureau, with or without cash, Patel goes from here?

[Mark Fisher]

This is a question that really bedevils a lot of the people who've devoted their lives to the FBI. They are wondering how they can restore their credibility in a post Patel, post Trump environment. They're wondering what it will take to recruit a new collection of agents who have the expertise and the smarts to be the premier law enforcement agency in the country, much as there were abuses under J. Edgar Hoover where he harassed Martin Luther King and where he went after gay people and anti war activists. There was also a period of decades of extraordinary achievements by Hoover's FBI really breaking up the Mafia, decimating the Ku Klux Klan. And what differs, I think, in Patel's time as director is, first of all, he doesn't have that record of accomplishments. And second, he has blown a hole through what was really the kind of paramount rule in Hoover's FBI, where agents were trained from the very start. Whatever you do, don't embarrass the Bureau. The Bureau's rectitude, the Bureau's reputation, was a key element in its ability to fight crime and prevent crime. And I think that that is something that has been lost under Cash Patel and the people who love the FBI are wondering whether they will ever be able to get that back.

[Aaron Wary]

All right, Mark, that's a lot to think about. Thanks very much.

[Mark Fisher]

Thank you.

[Aaron Wary]

Shortly after we recorded this interview, the New York Times reported allegations that the FDA, FBI investigated Times reporter Elizabeth Williamson. Williamson had written about Patel using government resources for his girlfriend's protection and transportation. The Times says the FBI agents interviewed Patel's girlfriend, checked databases for information about the reporter, and recommended moving forward to determine if the reporter had broken stalking laws. The FBI said they were concerned about how the aggressive reporting techniques cross lines of stalking. The agency ultimately decided not to pursue the case. That's all for today. I'm Aaron Wary. Jamie is back tomorrow.

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