← Front Burner
Front Burner
The (former) PM and the pop star
00:34:57
<p>Former prime minister Justin Trudeau is dating the American pop star Katy Perry. He’s been spotted with her on her yacht, singing along at her concerts, and globetrotting with her hand in hand.</p><p>It’s not the kind of post-political life Canadians are used to witnessing. </p><p><br></p><p>So today, a look at the lives of Canadian Prime Ministers once they’ve left office and the post-electoral endeavors of American presidents. </p><p><br></p><p>Are they extensions of who they were as leaders or breaks from the past? </p><p><br></p><p>Susan Delacourt is a longtime political journalist with the Toronto Star, and Gil Troy is a historian of American history and professor at McGill University. They join us to talk about the second acts of many of our most notable leaders.</p><p><br></p><p>For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: <a href="https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.cbc.ca/rad...
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B
Hey, everybody, I'm Jamie Poisson. And before you start yelling at us, I promise this episode isn't just tabloid stuff, but we are talking about former Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's budding romance with an American pop star, Katy Perry. First came the not so clear TMZ video of the two out to dinner in Montreal. And then grainy paparazzi images of the two of them on a yacht in California. Images of them kissing and hugging Trudeau shirtless but in jeans, as one does on a yacht in California. And then finally, confirmation a few weeks ago as the two attended a show hand in hand in Paris. The whole thing is kind of absurd, frankly, and not the kind of post politics life we are necessarily used to in this country. But in a serious way, it brought all of us here at Front Burner to think about the lives of Canadian prime ministers once they've left office, as well as the post presidential lives of American presidents and what we've seen them do as civilians with the prestige and power they built as politicians. Susan Delacourt is a longtime political journalist with the Toronto Star. And Gil Troy is a historian of American history and and professor at McGill University. And both join us today to talk about the second acts of many of our most notable leaders. Hello to you both.
- [02:33]
A
Hi. Great to be with you.
- [02:34]
C
Great to be here, Jamie.
- [02:35]
B
It's great to have you both on the show. Thank you so much for making the time. Why don't we begin with the reason that we are here today, the couple that inspired this episode, and that is of course, the former Prime Minister and pop star Justin Trudeau and Katy Perry. And Susan, you've been reporting on Ottawa for a long Time. You've seen a few prime ministers come and go, you've seen many political afterlives. And was this the kind of headline that you saw coming?
- [03:00]
C
Nope. I would tell you definitely I did not see this one coming. I did not have Katy Perry on my Justin Trudeau bingo card. And in fact, after the early days date, I was predicting it was going to be a one off. And not being a regular reader of the tabloids, I was actually caught unaware when somebody told me about the yacht. So all that's to say, no, I did not see it coming.
- [03:27]
B
Gil, you want to jump in here?
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A
So, first of all, let's put this in historical context. In 1896, a long time ago, William Jennings Bryan goes. He's a 30 year old Congressman and he goes to a national convention and. And all of a sudden he gives this powerful speech about the cross of gold and comes home. The Democratic nominee and his wife, in their memoirs has this amazing line because she talks about, all of a sudden their little home becomes overrun by people. And she says, the public invaded our lives. And I think one of the things we're seeing is that when you go to that level of celebrity and when you go to that level of political leadership, the public invades your life. But also, in some ways, you become part of this group. And sometimes, you know, we've seen Hollywood movies where they imagine kind of all the celebrities are aliens. And they do share a certain kind of understanding of what it is to not to have everything. Every date you take, every time you go out to throw the garbage, potentially be a moment that will go, that will go viral. And so it's, in some ways I get the Canadian dignity thing that it feels a little bit off.
- [04:34]
C
But.
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A
But on the other hand, on a human level, it may not be that surprising.
- [04:37]
B
Yeah. And Trudeau himself, he's a real. Well, he's emblematic of the confluence of these two worlds to me, celebrity and politics. The name Trudeau here is obviously kind of dynastic in this country. He did become this global phenomenon for his looks, really, but also his politics. I remember that Rolling Stone cover which literally read, quote, why can't he be our president? The story was titled the North Star. And just. Susan, how did you see Trudeau navigate this celebrity with the political during his time in office?
- [05:13]
C
It's been a really interesting thing to watch, and I did watch it up close. I actually, I called it a half a book. I wrote an ebook on Trudeau's leadership. And watching him, he was already a celebrity before he was Prime Minister, people thought that they knew him, and that played in his favor for a long time. During the famous blackface episode of the 2019 campaign, we found at the doors and MPs and candidates were saying this, everybody said, we know Trudeau's not a racist because people thought they knew him. There was already an understanding of who Trudeau was, and it played largely in his favor for a long time. And then, you know, people get tired of celebrities again. That's why I didn't think that he would go this route, because as, as Gil was saying, it is kind of privacy invading to be, to be a celebrity. And I, I, I have stayed in touch with Trudeau, by the way, and I thought that he was looking forward to being more of a private figure. I did actually talk to him after the date with Katy Perry too, and he said nothing in his life had prepared him for the paparazzi that was surrounding that. This was a level he'd never seen and he's seen a lot. So I thought again that he would choose a quieter life. But he's in love.
- [06:47]
B
That was such an interesting anecdote to that, that he, that this, that nothing prepared him for that. That's kind of shocking to me to hear that. Or surprising. Right, Gil?
- [06:58]
A
Like, especially given, Sorry. Especially given his background. Right. Like his genes. And I'm not talking about the genes on the yacht. Right.
- [07:05]
B
Why did he do that?
- [07:06]
A
Pierre Elliott. Right. He was, he was, he was raised in public in many ways. The young Trudeau said he doesn't much.
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B
Care what his peers think of his views.
- [07:15]
A
Everyone's got peer pressure that this, I.
- [07:17]
C
Mean, there's pressure to smoke, there's pressure to do all sorts of stuff.
- [07:21]
A
And I've never been affected by peer pressure, never. And the awful death of his brother was a public event in the most beautiful way also.
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B
Now the Trudeau's are trying to put.
- [07:33]
A
Their grief to good use. The family was devastated by the death of Michel, and they're hoping to educate.
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B
A snowbound nation about the risks we're.
- [07:41]
A
Taking in ever growing numbers. If Michel had decided to stay home and play chess and Nintendo, he would have been fine. But he chose to go out there and that's what made the difference. So he's seen the two sides of it. But I think what he's basically saying, if I'm interpreted not knowing him, is that now, in the age of social media, as bad as it was, as intense as it was, as out of control as it seemed back in the 70s with Margaret and the Rolling Stones and Pierre Elliot Trudeau. And this is just a whole other level. And I get it.
- [08:14]
B
Yeah. I mean, idt. I know I'm kind of laughing a little bit, but that must be a lot. It's like an enormous spotlight to put on a single person. And of course, he is a civilian now, and he is entitled to his privacy.
- [08:27]
C
I live in the same neighborhood as Rideau hall, so sounds like a first world problem. I'm accustomed to seeing former prime ministers around here. Jean Chretan was a neighbor after he left. Joe Clark was a neighbor. So you get used to seeing them. And my neighbors tell me they've. I haven't had a spotting like this, but that Trudeau was spotted in the grocery store, in the drugstore, just living his civilian life.
- [09:07]
B
Gil, you know, when I was kind of thinking through this episode, when we were thinking through this episode with our producer Matt, like we were, we were thinking of some parallels here with Barack Obama, who really came into the popular zeitgeist as this young insurgent star that people didn't know all that much about, but very quickly went from party outsider to this generational star and really an international icon. I think about kind of some of the social campaigns around that 202008 election. The song recorded in his yes, we.
- [09:41]
A
Can, it was the call of workers, organized women who reached for the balance. A president who chose the moon as our new frontier.
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B
And how would you describe Barack Obama's relationship with this notion of celebrity? What parallels do you see here? What differences?
- [10:03]
A
It's ironic because during the 2008 campaign, and it was very much. He knew how to build that star power, when John McCain kind of dismissed him as a celebrity, he was deeply, deeply offended.
- [10:14]
B
The latest ad from the John McCain camp is raising a lot of eyebrows.
- [10:18]
A
He's the biggest celebrity in the world, but is he ready to lead?
- [10:24]
B
During a campaign stop in Missouri, reporters asked Obama if he had seen the ad.
- [10:29]
A
I don't pay attention to John McCain, James, although I do notice that he doesn't seem to have anything very positive to say about himself, does he? He does.
- [10:36]
C
He.
- [10:37]
A
He seems to only be talking about me. And yet I would say certainly during his presidency and in the post presidency, he's leaned into it. Former President Barack Obama and music legend superstar Bruce Springsteen have teamed up for.
- [10:51]
B
A podcast to share how they came together, despite being from somewhat different worlds.
- [10:55]
C
Is this what's going on with social.
- [10:57]
A
Media that Oprah and I cannot go on a billionaire's boat to Tahiti with a former President of the States? United, United States and not keep it.
- [11:06]
C
Secret, for God's sake.
- [11:07]
A
We should also note that Justin Trudeau was 53 years old, Obama was 55 when he left office. And so there's, there's two dimensions here. One is simply the kind of, the sheer star power. And, and it's addictive also. In other words, it can be invasive, it can be exhausting. But there also is a. I, I've seen it on a much lower level. I, I moved to Montreal when I was a young assistant professor and I was once at a very fancy event. I won't mention names. And there was this huge donor who was used to being known and I, being myself, just sort of walked in and said, hi, my name is Gil Troy. What's your name? And his face fell. And so there is something addictive about, about the power. There is something addictive about the celebrity, and maybe we'll get to it. There's also something addictive about the money because what also happens is that when you're flying in private jets and you have security and all of a sudden also when you go, you know, certainly for the American President, when the Obamas went to vacation, they went to Martha's Vineyard, to this multimillion dollar estate. And what's really fascinating is that these people have mastered politics, they've mastered maybe the celebrity world, but many of them, unlike our current president, haven't mastered the world of money. And they often have a kind of money envy. And you see Obama, Clinton after the presidency going from having relatively modest bank books to following the money.
- [12:33]
B
Right. I think that Obama's were paid, what, $65 million for their respective memoirs by Penguin Random House. Those were just the memoirs. Right, Right.
- [12:43]
A
And that was just the opening bid. I mean, that was just, you know, teeing it up and all the Netflix deals and the speaking engagements and, and the beautiful estates they building now, God bless them, they've worked hard. And in fact, I love the fact that Barack Obama's memoir is called A Promised Land because he lived the American dream. And at a time when so many people denigrate that, he's not only defending it, but epitomizing it. But sometimes it gets a little bit gross.
- [13:11]
C
That is the big difference between the United States and Canada is they actually presidents leave office with an office to support them, note, staff, money, all of those things in Canada, modest Canada. I'm sure our public prefers this. When you leave as prime minister, that's it, you leave with your pension and it's a good pension, but you don't leave with an office. Over the years, you've wanted sometimes to get in touch with former prime ministers. They usually have the same people who worked with them in the past volunteering to field media calls for them. They don't. They don't come with an office.
- [13:53]
B
So volunteer.
- [13:54]
C
Some of that is volunteering right now. Right now, Trudeau's being staffed by a bunch of volunteers will field media questions for him.
- [14:04]
B
But if you're for me to say there. There are opportunities for former Canadian PMs to cash into books, of course, but also, like, pretty lucrative speaking engagements. I was in an event with John Kretchian last week, and he did joke that he didn't start making money until after he got out of politics. Like, I imagine he' he's getting, like, some pretty big paychecks for coming to speak at, you know, this event or that. Yeah.
- [14:27]
C
Yeah, apparently we're gonna. We're gonna be seeing more of that in the new year. He's done a few. He was in South Korea. Trudeau.
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B
Hey, I'm Paige desorbo, and I'm always thinking about underwear.
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- [16:01]
B
Just to come back to Barack Obama with you, Susan and Trudeau, you know, we've been drawing some comparisons, but.
- [16:11]
C
I.
- [16:11]
B
Also do see some differences, at least at the moment. Right. Obama both as soon as he left office and today remains a pretty popular figure nationally and is probably the most significant cultural voice in the party. Trudeau, I think not so much right at the moment. What do you think the differences are between these two and the way that they have been conceived of in their post political lives? Like, I think if there was a Canadian election tomorrow, it's not clear to me Mark Carney would want Trudeau's endorsement.
- [16:44]
C
You saw that during the campaign. Trudeau stayed more or less out of it. And I think, you know, he campaigned in his old riding of Papineau, very low key and he's keeping low key about this government too, for exactly the reasons you say. He went out rather unpopularly and I think a lot of prime ministers do. Jean Carita wasn't all that popular when he, he left. He's a, you know, hailed now as a liberal demigod. Brian Mulroney certainly didn't go out in any blaze of glory, but they, they acquire a statesmanlike reputation after a while. I don't think we're there yet with Trudeau. I do think he will be more of a celebrity abroad than he will be here in Canada for quite some time.
- [17:37]
A
We saw the quiet power of Barack Obama during the bizarre interregnum when Joe Biden had his debate debacle and everybody was talking about, well, we can't quite have a nominating convention because he was already the nominee, this is last summer. And Kamala Harris, according to news sources, was quite annoyed that Obama was a little bit slow in jumping on the Harris nomination bandwagon. But the underlying power of the story is that you see that Barack Obama and Michelle, by the way, remained among the most important voices in the Democratic Party. I think there also was some resentment on the part of the Bidens that they felt that Obama didn't back them up enough. So he plays the celebrity role, but he also has, and you're right, he is the cultural voice of the Democratic Party, but one also has a sense that he doesn't mind still moving, moving the levers of power when necessary and, and being a bit of a marionette when possible.
- [18:32]
B
And I've actually found it really interesting listening to Obama lately. It feels like he's ramping up in public more, he's taking more swings at the Trump administration. I just found that fascinating.
- [18:45]
C
I think if, if Trump is going to revisit this whole idea of term limits. Okay, let's do it. But bring back Obama.
- [18:51]
B
That would be a really interesting race.
- [18:55]
A
Oh, that would be epic. That's very, that's, that's very clever. Once he breaks, once he breaks the mold, that, that's a campaign.
- [19:11]
B
Susan, you mentioned Stephen Harper earlier. This is someone who I have some difficulty imagining in a celebrity relationship. Justin Trudeau was a product of the Harper years in many ways. And Harper has decided to take a different path post politics. After his 2015 loss, he launched a consulting firm, he joined a global law practice. He chaired a conservative think tank founded by Margaret Thatcher and George H.W. bush. He's also facing criticisms about his dealings with the likes of Hungary's authoritarian leader, Viktor Orban. Generally, he has retained a certain political visibility. What stands out to you about Harper's post pmy?
- [20:00]
C
I, I have another nice little anecdote for you. I don't know if you, you were watching the, the speech when King Charles came, the throne speech earlier this year. And my favorite part of that, I'm exposing myself as totally shallow here, but my favorite part of that wasn't the speech. It was watching who was talking to who and the little interplay between everybody before the speech. And I was blown away when I saw Stephen Harper and Justin Trudeau talking in a very animated fashion, laughing, gesturing. And I thought, wow, I wouldn't have seen that 10 years ago. Apparently what they were talking about was exactly what we're talking about now is how to navigate your visibility, you know, how to resist the temptation to weigh in when you want to and timing when you appear and stuff. I didn't hear how that all came out, but it was Harper giving a bit of advice Trudeau on how to stay low key. I don't think Stephen Harper, as you said, would have counseled him to go on a yacht in a celebrity's yacht. But when I was thinking about this show, I was thinking about how all the past prime ministers in my experience, and I'm not going to date myself by saying how many of them there are, pretty much go back to living the lives they were living before they became pm. You know, Chretien jokes that he only made money after he was a pretty big lawyer. When I first got to Ottawa, he was out of politics and he was, you know, Lang Michener was his firm and he was making some pretty good money and doing lots of business as a high priced lawyer. And that's what he is now. Stephen Harper was a reclusive guy in Calgary and he's become A reclusive guy in Calgary. Again, Paul Martin, we should mention Paul Martin. He was briefly Prime Minister, but he tried a bit to do the sort of Obama like thing. He set up a. I don't know whether it was called a foundation, but he was working a lot on indigenous issues, which was a passion of his, doing lots of that kind of work after he left office too, which I thought was laudable. And that was very much Paul Martin. Paul Martin and Brian Mulroney, incidentally, had places not far from each other in Florida and kept up a friendship that had begun when they were Montreal businessmen, I think continued in their post PM life.
- [22:35]
A
That's a fascinating contrast with presidents because almost every president, except perhaps you could argue George W. Bush, maybe George H.W. bush, revolutionized their lives after the White House. From Donald Trump, who spent the next four years running for office denying the election results, to Obama and Clinton, who just as I said, went into kind of both the celebrity stratosphere and a kind of monetary lifestyle they never had before. And Jimmy Carter, who when he was 56 was an ex president and then launched all his foundations and his humanitarian initiatives. Gerald Ford, who had been a very modest Republican congressman for many years and then he, all of a sudden he's on the corporate board circuit. So the presidency is usually dramatically life changing. I think you have to go back to, maybe Harry Truman also pretty much went back to Independence, Missouri. But on the whole it just changes everything and it's addictive, as I said. It's also. There's a very beautiful memoir by Jimmy Carter and Rosalynn Carter called Everything to Gain, Making the Most of the Rest of youf Life. And they write about, first of all, the blow, because they were one term, he was a one term president. And, and they talk about the blow of losing the White House and then just sort of going back to Plains, Georgia. And in Carter's case, his peanut business had gone billy up because there was a notion back then of the president not doing anything financial and not getting any financial gain during his office and just trying to figure out, we're in our mid-50s, what do we do with the rest of our lives. And the book is Everything to Gain, Making the Most of the Rest of youf Life. It's actually a beautiful book.
- [24:16]
B
Um, you know, I've heard people say or make the argument that Carter's afterlife might actually have eclipsed his presidency. He won the Nobel Peace Prize, ladies and gentlemen.
- [24:30]
A
War may sometimes be a necessary evil, but no matter how necessary, it is always evil, never a good we will not learn how to live together in peace by killing each other's children.
- [24:51]
B
He built homes for the poor and Habitat for Humanity. He mediated global conflicts. He observed elections. What do you make of that argument?
- [24:59]
A
You know, I was at a conference back in the Carter center about 15, 20 years ago, and it was fascinating because first everybody talked about his amazing 1976 presidential election and what a genius he was and how he came from nowhere and he was this unknown Southern governor and all of a sudden, boom became President, United States in the post Watergate era. And then they talked about his post presidency as he was the male Mother Teresa and he was practically an American saint and all the amazing, wonderful things he did. And then they talked about his presidency as this disaster. And I said, are we talking about the same person now? Obviously there are certain values that, that, that, that flow through. Obviously the presidency is a very different kind of job. But it was very funny the degree to which people just sort of, kind of wanted to kind of tell one narrative, then a second narrative, then a third narrative. But indeed, I do have to. I didn't always agree with every position Carter took, but I think, I think he was very much aware of Ford. And while there was a lot of respect for Ford, there was a certain feeling that he had monetized the presidency a little bit too much. And Carter was much more careful. And he said, wow, I have this opportunity now. And indeed, we should add, not only does the President get a staff, but most presidents then get involved in building these presidential libraries, which the presidential libraries are paid for by the National Archives, and they are formal legal bodies that collect all the papers in the White House and all the President's papers. But then there's always a second part of a museum and a foundation and that is basically dedicated to perpetuating the President's legacy and values. And Jimmy Carter, like many of them, used that as the, really the launching pad. And he really turned his life around. And you have to kind of say, again, just sort of on a human level, it's very impressive to see someone who's just devastated. He didn't think he was going to lose, and he lost to somebody whom we have to go back to the 1980s. He looked at Ronald Reagan as a threat to democracy, as a right wing maniac, as a. More on those awards that were thrown around. So it was a double blow. He felt that he had let the American people down and he had lost his office. And from that moment of devastation to then have, first of all, a very long run of it. He only recently died. And do good works, but also find purpose is I think, something that all of us can learn. That Even in your 50s and 60s, you can pivot and you can overcome blows and you can make something about the rest of your life.
- [27:27]
B
The last US President that I wanted to ask you about specifically was George W. Bush. Gill, whose post presidential life might be one of the more surprising reinventions in modern politics. Maybe the man defined by the Iraq war has spent his political afterlife painting portraits. Kind of the opposite of Carter. Right. Often of immigrants and soldiers, although sometimes I think of like animals. And so I hired instructor and the art community wasn't exactly my base of support when I ran for office. And so the instructor was slightly nervous.
- [28:07]
A
She said, your objective.
- [28:08]
B
I said, there's a Rembrandt trapped in this body and your job is to find him. How do you interpret that transformation? Is this an act of personal reckoning or a way of softening or reshaping his legacy in the public imagination, you think?
- [28:23]
A
I think actually it was much more authentic. I think it was much more that, you know, he had a previous life which he quite enjoyed, a non political life. He'd been, he had been a part owner of the Texas Rangers, a baseball team, and he just wanted to go back to the ranch and go back to his life. I think the presidency was extremely stressful for him. I think the storms around it were not his thing. But we should also do a flow through which links, I think both the conversation about Canadian prime ministers and presidents. There's something really powerful and very lowercase d democratic about the conversation we're having that most presidents, most prime ministers have a certain humility, which is not the character trait that gets them into office. And they understand that after the office it's really not for them to politic. And while, as I said, Obama's been behind the scenes and we see many of the and we're still in the public eye, they do have clear red lines about not trying to micromanage their successor and not trying to continue to dominate the news. Again, with Trump, as always, it was a bit of an exception. And I think that's actually. And so when we talk about the story that you told Susan about two prime ministers chatting, when we go and see at presidential funerals, all the presidents and the former first ladies lined up in a row. So a, you get this certain sense of a club, but you also get a certain sense of people who have a certain kind of respect for the sacred nature of their role and the civic virtue involved. And I think at a time when those values are being coarsened and being undermined, it's important to really acknowledge all of them, because any one of them could have used their post presidency to be demagogic and to harm Canada or the United States. And I think on the whole, most of them haven't. And I think it's a, you know, when we sit and look at the list of all of them, they've done much, much more good than harm. And I think that's actually very moving and could be a nice model for all of us to learn from.
- [30:39]
B
I feel like the, the big omission off the, the list that we've run through so far is, is the senior Trudeau, right?
- [30:45]
C
And I was just thinking about it.
- [30:47]
B
It's probably worth us going through him just a little bit before we wrap up today. He was also kind of like a cultural icon Prime Minister for all he did across two terms. Many will also remember him for who he dated, right? Like Barbra Streisand, act actors like Marco Kidder and the classical guitarist Leona Boyd. He was a charismatic bachelor PM that felt larger than the office in some ways. Can you just tell me a little bit more about the senior Trudeau's post politics life and how you might compare him to his son?
- [31:22]
C
That's a really interesting question. And don't think that that hasn't gone through Justin Trudeau's mind, too. You know, I think the famous book about Pierre Trudeau is He Haunts us still. I'm sure he haunts the son who will be either trying to live up to the legacy or do something different. When I first got to Ottawa, Pietro was just recently a former prime minister. I got here in the late 80s and he was famously reclusive. You couldn't get him out on anything. He did go to a law firm. I remember sending, leaving messages because the Constitution was coming up, the big constitutional drama. And then he picked his moments. Then, much to Brian Mulroney's frustration, Pierre Trudeau made a famous speech at Maison Eggrolle after the Meech Lake Accord was signed, trashing it and galvanizing the opposition to it, which eventually did kill the Meech Lake Accord. And he had no small hand in that.
- [32:33]
A
I feel that we're heading for a Canada which will be weaker and provinces which really won't be in the long run better off because I feel strongly about Canada and strongly about Quebec. I feel it's important to speak my mind.
- [32:52]
C
I actually went to a speech when Brian Mulroney was leaving office and he went on for about 70 minutes, I believe, largely about what Pierre Trudeau had done to ruin his time in office. Pierre Trudeau played almost a game of peekaboo with us after he left office.
- [33:09]
A
And boy, did people love in Montreal. Pierre sightings. The most exciting part of your day was if you actually had a moment where you saw him wandering around or you saw him in the law firm. It seemed like everybody, male and female, just had a crush on Pierre Elliot Trudeau when I first moved to Montreal, and it was kind of the thing.
- [33:28]
B
Final question for you both. Since the Second World War War, we haven't seen many former prime ministers make political comebacks. Right. John Diefenmaker and Joe Clark ran again, but most made the decision to leave politics entirely earlier in our history. That wasn't unusual. Leaders like McDonald, MacKenzie King all returned for second or even third acts. And I guess I think the first question is why you think comebacks have become so much rarer today. And then a more fun one is, could we see one day maybe a comeback from Justin Trudeau like his father?
- [34:04]
C
I think this goes to what we were talking about earlier is by the time prime ministers leave office, if they've spent any long amount of time in the public eye, the publicist gets tired. You know, celebrity or political celebrity as they call it. The old saying, politics is show business for ugly people. Never say never. But I think also the job is hugely demanding. And once you know what it's like, I'm not sure you want to dive back in. It is, as Gil says, I'm sure it's addictive, but I don't know that either the former PMs themselves or Canadians have any appetite to see people back in the public arena. Once we're done with them, we're done with them.
- [34:49]
B
Gil, final word to you.
- [34:51]
A
The presidency and the American public chew you up and spit you out. And many of them, after four years, let alone eight years in office, are exhausted. We should also point out the impact that it has on their relationships, both on their spouses and their kids. I think also the American people have much shorter retention span than they used to and much less respect for the power of the office. But we should also again, end on a high note. That beautiful idea, that powerful idea that George Washington injected of the two term tradition has also put limits, which is basically saying that, yes, at that moment, you are the most important person in your mind, but in the mind of the American people, and often in Americans case they see it as the most important person in the world. It is really important for the stability of a democracy for you to also have some limits. And as much as you wield power, like Theodore Roosevelt did, expanding the presidency every single day, he knew also that when it's time to leave, it's time to leave. And he tried to get back in because he had had a kind of a half, two term tradition because he succeeded William McKinley. But that power of the two term tradition is something that I think is really important because in democracies, all democracies, it's very easy for the power to go to your head and to know that there's a limit, to know that it's time sometimes to pass on to your successor is also a way of trying to find the next generation of leaders who are going to come up and replace you.
- [36:16]
C
From your lips to Trump's ears.
- [36:18]
B
I was just thinking the need for.
- [36:21]
A
Those kind of speeches.
- [36:22]
B
I'm thinking the same thing. Just so much of what you said today is such an indication or such an illustration of just how far outside the norms Donald Trump is from all of these other political leaders. This was a tremendous amount of fun, you two. Thank you very much for this.
- [36:38]
C
I had fun, too.
- [36:39]
B
I feel like I knew you were just. Yeah, thank you. All right, that's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow.
- [37:05]
A
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