Weekend Listen: Hunting the Suicide Salesman

Summary

Front Burner – Weekend Listen: Hunting the Suicide Salesman (June 6, 2026)

Overview

This special episode features the first installment of CBC’s investigative series Hunting the Suicide Salesman, hosted by Damon Fairless. The episode dives into the harrowing story of Kenneth Law, a Canadian man who shipped suicide kits to vulnerable people around the world, and the online communities where he was able to peddle his deadly wares. Through deeply personal interviews with bereaved families and firsthand testimonies from those who narrowly survived, Fairless plunges into the unsettling intersection of mental health crises and the Internet’s darkest forums—a space few dare to report on.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Kenneth Law Case and Online Suicide Commerce

• Kenneth Law pleaded guilty to aiding 14 suicides and is linked to nearly 80 other deaths. Law ran an international operation, shipping over 1200 packages to 41 countries, targeting vulnerable individuals through suicide forums.

  "Using an online alias, Law targeted vulnerable people on a suicide forum, directing them to his products and teaching them how to die." (Jamie, 00:35)

2. The Death of Joe – A Family’s Story

• The episode centers much of its narrative on Joe, a young man in England who died by suicide using sodium nitrite, a substance promoted and facilitated via an online forum. His mother Catherine and daughter-in-law Melanie share their experience:
  • Discovery: Detailed account of the morning Joe died and the chaos that followed.
  • Joe's online activity: Catherine and Melanie discovered posts Joe had made, including how he was guided toward sodium nitrite by other forum users.
  • Impact of the forum: Both women express the belief that Joe’s death was directly connected to information and support from the forum.

  "Joe wouldn't have done it if he hadn't found out about that method. He took his life because that was a simple solution to him." (Melanie, 22:34) "It wasn't anywhere else." (Catherine, 22:51)

  • Joe’s final note: Left a letter to police urging them to close the website that facilitated his suicide.

  "Please do your best in closing that website for anyone else." (Catherine quoting Joe, 24:11)

3. The Online Suicide Forum Experience

• The episode features 'Tina' (a pseudonym), a long-term sufferer of depression who found the forum the same way Joe did.
  • Initial Impressions: The site provides an uncensored space to discuss suicide, with thousands seeking support or information—but also a dangerous normalization and even encouragement of suicide.

  "You don't offer help to people because you know someone's about to take their lives. You just wish them well and happy travels, safe travels and be done with it." (Tina, 31:20)

  • Ethos and Content: Graphic instructions, methods, and even links to distressing content.

  "It was really weird to find such information so easily...the detail and the level of detail...so graphic...things you can't unsee." (Tina, 30:03)

  • Addictive pull: The forum can become a fixation, feeling like an addictive space.

  "It kind of was almost like an addiction for me...I needed to know there were other people like me." (Tina, 35:21)

4. Forum Culture: “Goodbye Threads” and the Dangers of Normalization

• Explanation of the site’s “Goodbye Threads,” which essentially function as digital suicide notes posted in real time; there is often little intervention from other users.
  • Discussion about the moral conflicts and inner turmoil for those lurking or engaging in these communities.

  "If the last cry had help, what ifs you could save them..." (Tina, 34:50)

  • The inherent danger comes from both the detailed guidance and the group’s encouragement and normalization of suicide.

5. The Modus Operandi of Suicide Sellers

• Introduction of “Greenberg,” a prominent forum user who privately messages vulnerable users and directs them to external websites selling lethal substances, most notably the Canadian supplier (connected to Kenneth Law).
  • Tina describes how “Greenberg” offered her the link to buy sodium nitrite, and how easily the transaction could occur online.

  "He said, I think I can help. And then just the Time Cuisine website...This is great. How easy was that to get hold of?" (Tina, 38:05)

6. Family Member Interventions and Legal Gaps

• Catherine and Melanie stepped in multiple times to prevent further deaths, demonstrating the tangible impact of intervention.
  • Though sodium nitrite is legal, there’s little recourse for authorities or shippers, revealing regulatory blind spots.

  "We'd got in touch with Royal Mail to try and stop the parcel...they said they couldn't intercept any parcels." (Catherine, 39:11)

  • Police can only intervene when there’s imminent danger.

7. Moral & Emotional Complexity of Intervening

• Families describe the bittersweet aftermath of saving someone from suicide—Tina feeling betrayed but ultimately grateful as she recovered.

  "Because she didn't need to today. It was a temporary crisis she was in...with a bit of time, you can get there." (Melanie, 42:43) "I just felt so betrayed and so hurt...but that's what she does. She saves people." (Tina, 42:00)

8. International Law Enforcement Response

• After multiple deaths, global police coordinate wellness checks and investigations, with Tina and others providing evidence on sellers like Greenberg.

  "As Tina answered their questions, the same scene was playing out with hundreds of other people across the world." (Damon, 46:16)

9. Closing Reflections on Responsibility and the Need for Reporting

• The episode ends on the chilling scale of the operation and the unfinished search for those behind these deaths.
• Quotes characterizing Kenneth Law as a new kind of mass murderer.

  "He's one of the worst mass murderers we've ever seen. Just because you're using the Internet doesn't mean you get away with murder." (Tina, 47:44)

• A call for more compassionate coverage and investigation of suicide, not mere avoidance.

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Memorable Quotes

• "This isn’t your fault...You are all amazing and did everything you could for me. I just got tired of fighting and trying to act normal."
  — Joe’s letter (read by Catherine, 03:09)
• "Suicide is not an issue you can tackle without taking some kind of risk. And I'm going to be talking about it more openly...This is an invitation to a difficult conversation."
  — Damon Fairless, 04:32
• "It changed me as a person. It changed me."
  — Tina, 31:20
• "If you loved me, you'd help me die."
  — Joe to his family, recounted by Melanie, 19:03
• "Please do your best in closing that website for anyone else."
  — Joe’s note to police, 24:11
• "Honestly, I don't know. It kind of was almost like an addiction for me...I needed to know there were other people like me."
  — Tina, 35:21
• "Because she didn't need to today. It was a temporary crisis she was in."
  — Melanie, 42:43
• "The help does come."
  — Tina, direct message to listeners, 45:07

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Timeline & Important Segments

• [00:35] – Introduction: Kenneth Law’s arrest and the global scale of the crime
• [02:13] – Scene: Joe’s family at the dining table, handling evidence
• [04:32] – Damon Fairless’s discussion of the taboos and risks in reporting on suicide
• [06:14] – Recounting the morning Joe died: family perspective
• [11:15] – Discovery and online research into sodium nitrite
• [13:16] – Joe as a person: memories from Catherine and Melanie
• [16:33] – Joe’s suicidal crisis and family interventions
• [19:26] – Joe’s presence and posts on the forum
• [22:34] – Family reflections on the forum’s direct impact
• [24:11] – Joe’s note to police calling for the closure of the website
• [27:25] – Tina’s initial experience with the forum culture
• [30:03] – Tina on graphic, detailed instructions found on the site
• [31:20] – Site’s ethos: non-intervention in “goodbye threads”
• [35:21] – The forum’s addiction-like pull
• [37:27] – Greenberg’s role in directly supplying methods and means
• [39:11] – Catherine & Melanie’s attempt to intercept Tina’s package
• [42:43] – Ethical justification for intervention
• [45:07] – Tina’s message of hope to others
• [46:16] – Global unfolding of the police investigation
• [47:44] – Final reflections on culpability and scale

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Tone and Style

The episode is unflinching, sensitive, and deeply personal. The tone is empathetic without sensationalizing, and the narrative structure weaves between investigative journalism and raw, emotional storytelling. Damon Fairless sets the expectation for honest and difficult conversation, and the participants’ voices—those of bereaved family and vulnerable forum users—are given respectful space and context.

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Conclusion

This episode exposes the urgent, multifaceted dangers of online suicide forums—as both meeting places for people in crisis and hunting grounds for those who exploit despair. It illustrates the real-world consequences of online policy and legal inaction, as well as the power of empathy and direct intervention. Hunting the Suicide Salesman challenges listeners to grapple with the ethics of reporting—and intervening—in suicide, and points toward the need for vigilance, compassion, and accountability in the digital age.

Transcript

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

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[CBC Promo Announcer]

This is a CBC podcast.

[Jamie (Narrator)]

Hey, everybody. Jamie here. Last week in a hearing watched around the world, a Canadian man named Kenneth Law pleaded guilty to aiding in 14 suicides and admitted his role in nearly 80 other deaths. Using an online alias, Law targeted vulnerable people on a suicide forum, directing them to his products and teaching them how to die. The scale of the operation was staggering. More than 1200 packages shipped to people in 41 countries. It is a case that my colleague Damon Fairless has been following for years. Damon is no stranger to the darkest corners of the Internet. He hosted Hunting Warhead, CBC's award winning podcast that followed an international police investigation into one of the world's largest child abuse sites on the dark web. Now Damon is back with a long awaited follow up series. Hunting the Suicide Salesman investigates the shadowy online world where Kenneth Law operated. Preying on people, searching for a way to end their lives. Like Hunting Warhead, this is a global story, one that connects victims across countries and communities through an online world few people want to confront or even report on. Here's the first episode of Hunting the Suicide Salesman. If you get hooked like I did, there's a link in the show notes to episode two.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Are these the evidence bags that they were in?

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

Yeah.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Are you guys comfortable talking about that stuff or reading them or.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

Yep.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

Yeah.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

I'm at a cluttered dining room table in northern England. There are papers everywhere, stacks of file folders, empty teacups, an ashtray full of spent cigarettes. It's not much of a dining room, not anymore. What it is now is a makeshift war room. Are these different drafts or like each separate?

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

Each. Separate.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Okay, so he left three of them? Yes.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

He left two to me and one to all of us.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

That's Catherine. Catherine's showing me three handwritten letters. Lushbere's son Joe, each in a clear plastic bag.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

This was in the envelope on the sofa along with this one and the one for the police in a separate envelope.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Catherine's here with Melanie, her daughter in law. Melanie's married to Joe's eldest brother.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

So there's the one that he left for us. All this has been planned for a while now and I know it's selfish of me to do this, but I had no choice. I know I'll never get better with what's going on in my head. This isn't your fault. You are all amazing and did everything you could for me. I just got tired of fighting and trying to act normal. I love you all so much. I hope you do forgive me. I really do. I'm truly sorry. I'm sorry I'm not as strong as you all. And I'm sorry I've let you down. Give the kids a big kiss and a hug from me. I love you all so much. I mean that. I'm sorry. Lots of love, too. My babe.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

This is the story of a deadly corner of the Internet. At least that's how it started. But really, it's a series about suicide. So depending on how you're feeling, this might not be what you want to listen to right now. Especially if you tend to struggle with depression or suicidal thoughts. I get it. These are things I've dealt with from time to time. So have a lot of people in this series. So do a lot of people, period. Suicide is one of the leading causes of death worldwide. But for all our efforts trying to destigmatize mental health issues, it's still not something we talk about. Not really. Not directly. Honestly, unflinchingly. So why not? One of the reasons journalists don't cover it in much detail is because we're afraid. What if we do more harm than good? That's something I've been wrestling with a lot. But not talking about suicide, really talking about it, that's risky, too. It can push us towards dark places and dangerous people. Suicide is not an issue you can tackle without taking some kind of risk. And I'm going to be talking about it more openly than what's traditionally recommended. But I'm not going to warn you away. That's not what this is. It's not a trigger warning. This is an invitation to a difficult conversation. And I'm hoping you'll choose to stick around.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

It was like that morning, Damon. It was awful. It was awful. It was like a crime scene.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Can you go back to that morning and, you know, tell me what you remember. Tell me what you want to.

[Tina (Site User)]

That.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

You don't have to go into details if you don't feel comfortable. But tell me what you remember.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

It was the same kind of setup as this one at the stairs. Yeah.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Catherine's talking about the morning of April 4, 2020. Her son Joe was living with her then in a house Katherine's moved out of since he'd come home again after Being out on his own for a few months. Catherine woke up just before 8:30. She came down the stairs and she noticed the living room door was open slightly. She could hear music playing softly. She and Joe had been watching Grey's Anatomy on the couch until about midnight. He said he was going to stay up and watch a movie and Catherine went to bed. She assumed he'd fallen asleep with the TV on.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

I came down as I was going in to make a coffee, I shouted, yo, you up? Nothing. Think I made a coffee. Moved it in the kitchen, started going and getting. And I just opened the door and I just remember that music.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

It wasn't the tv, it was Joe's phone. He'd left a song playing on an endless loop.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

And I looked and there he was.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

My phone rang and Catherine was just screaming down the phone at me, he's dead, he's dead, Joe's dead, he's dead. And that's all she was saying. I just remember blasting the car around the corners. And I got there and I ran up the driveway. Catherine was in the hall by the front door, crying, screaming. I walked into the living room and I saw Joe on the sofa. His fingertips had gone blue and the tip of his nose was blue as well. And I remember I put my hand onto his hand and yeah,

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

On the floor near Joe, there was an empty glass sitting on a sheet of paper. And on it, in big block letters, a warning.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

Don't touch the glass. Don't touch me. Call the police.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Then Melanie noticed the stack of notes on the arm of the sofa. Three of them were for the family and a fourth in an envelope addressed to the police, along with the remains of a small bag of white granular powder.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

And with that, two police officers turned up. And I led them in and they said, right, we need to evacuate the house. And I said, what do we need to evacuate the house for? I was probably a bit shitty with them, really thinking, why have we all got to get out of the house? There's no need. Because they didn't know how he had died. They had to make sure that nobody else was at harm or there was any risk to anybody else in the area because more police just kept coming. And then the fire brigade turned up, paramedics turned up. And all in all, I think there were seven police cars, two fire engines, two paramedics, and this big appliance vehicle turned up about 45 minutes later. The next minute, the glasses. I could see this officer carrying the glasses.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Joe had actually left two glasses, the empty one on the sheet of paper with the warning and another one partly full of a clear liquid.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

I said, what are they doing with them? We need to test them. Test them for what? For what he's taken.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

One of the vehicles that had shown up was a mobile lab.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

So they tested the glasses and said, it's sodium nitrite. I remember thinking, what is it? What is sodium nitrite and how does it kill somebody?

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Melanie's immediately on Google.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

And then I came across some sort of medical document. I think it was some sort of research or something like that was actually had pictures on it and it was explaining the effects of sodium nitrate toxicity.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

They were post mortem photos, pictures of bodies with bluish skin like Joe's.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

It was just blowing my mind, working it out, thinking, what is this? And nothing was becoming clear as to what. What it's actual intended use was.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Sodium nitrite's intended use is as a food preservative. It's used in low concentrations to cure meat and prevent botulism, and more rarely as a cure for cyanide poisoning. But the stuff Melanie was seeing online was being sold at extremely high concentrations, over 99.9% pure.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

I searched on the Internet, how do you kill yourself with sodium nitrite? And it just kept bringing up this

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

site, a site that came up with simple Google search, nothing, tucked away on the dark web. A simple web form like Reddit, but devoted entirely to suicide.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

It was probably less than 12 hours after Joe had been found that I found it. I think the more I went on it over the rest of that day, because I kept coming back. There was just something luring me back to it every time I thought, no, he couldn't have. He couldn't have been on something like this. That's not Joe. And the more and more I looked on there, I found him.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Melanie had inadvertently stumbled onto the path Joe had taken in his final days. He ended up in a place a lot of people do after searching for something they can't find in the real world. Okay, so I want to. Can you tell me about Joe? Like that's. I want to know who he is as a human, who he was as a human.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

He would just. He was a proper comedian. He was the one. No matter what was happening. It'd make you laugh. He. That's him there. He had a thing for zebras.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Catherine's showing me a framed photo. Joe's hamming it up. His thing for zebras included a full size black and white striped onesie.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

He was kind, he was caring he did have attitude as well when he wanted. He definitely had a mind of his own. It was just lovely. Just like a normal 23 year old. He'd go out and go out with his mates. He'd then tell you all about girls he'd met and we got the full story, trust me on that one.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Like how much?

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

Everything.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

First times I met him, I'd only been going out with Aaron at this point about six weeks.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Aaron's Joe's older brother, Melanie's husband.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

It was a Christmas, the first Christmas I was with him. That's when he got his thong. I love his thong. And he modeled the thong for me. And I'd literally only just met them.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

That was Joe, it was just. I suppose he's like me anyway, it was just an open book. Not that I'd do anything like that.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

This is how Joe grew up. Fun, loving, tight with his family, happy. Until he was about 19. Right, okay. So I think it's important too to talk about because you guys as your family had like a hellish stretch.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

Yeah, big blow.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

In the last few years of his life, Joe was dealing with a lot. Both of Catherine's parents had passed away after prolonged illnesses. And then his stepfather, Catherine's husband, died suddenly. Joe was close to them all. In the midst of all this, one night Joe was getting off the bus after work. He had a part time job at a fish and chips place. A group of guys swarmed him and mugged him. One of them had a knife and stabbed Joe in the liver and one of his lungs. He recovered but the grief and the pain started to weigh him down. He started a course of antidepressants. He'd been studying it security at university. But it all started to feel like too much. So he decided he needed a break. Then he met a girl. It was intense, all consuming and tumultuous. Joe moved in with her and he sort of went dark and stopped communicating with his family for a bit. And then a few months later it was over.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

When he came home, I knew there was something. We knew there was something not right with him. And he just kept saying that because he'd broke up with her. But when he came back from her, I never saw my Jo again.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

How he was Joe's zebra onesie thong. Worrying sense of fun had evaporated. He was quiet and withdrawn. He wasn't eating or sleeping.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

And then in the January, he called me.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

This was a week or two after Joe's breakup and he said he'd gone

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

into town from work. So I Said, okay, what you doing? And he went, I'm actually on the top of a car park. I'm gonna jump. Oh God.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Katherine eventually talks him down from the roof of the car park.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

And I just said, let me come for you. And he said, no. So I said, I promise I'll get you the help you need. Either I come for you or get in a taxi. And he got in a taxi and he came home.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

After this, Katherine and Melanie pull into a tight orbit around Joe. There are countless doctor's appointments, countless prescriptions, attempts to get him daily therapy sessions. But Joe still wants to die, and Melanie and Catherine are terrified. From what you're saying, he's got this patchy help that he's getting from mental health workers. He's on medication or should be on medication. Like how long does that go on before he ends his life?

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

It wasn't even four months, was it? Three. January, February, March, beginning of April. Three months.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Some people live with suicidal urges for years and some for much of their lives. But most people experience crises that are more like Joe's. They're acute and relatively short lived and complex. It's usually a combination of a whole bunch of things. During the three months that Joe was suicidal, he made a few attempts. He swallowed a fistful of sleeping pills with no lasting effect. Another time, he wandered into a pocket park with a noose. He had even picked the tree. Before Melanie found him, Joe went missing one last time. Catherine called the police and they found Joe in the cemetery where his grandmother was buried. He had plans to die at her grave.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

That was the time Katherine said to me, I'm grieving for a son that I've not lost yet. And she said, I can already picture him dead.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

It was awful.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

We were battling with the mental health. We were always on the phone to them saying, he needs help, he needs help. He's asking us to help him die.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

He'd asked me and he'd asked Mel different occasions. He said to me, if you loved me, you'd help me die.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

It's not clear exactly when Joe found the online suicide form.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

We'd found the post with his username on there.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Remind me how you knew it was him.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

Yeah, he used Yo Yo Jojo as his username and call him Yo Yo. And that's when the dates, as soon as you see the name. I just knew that it was him

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

at first. He just lurked and read other people's posts. But six days before he died, he began posting. What did you find on those posts?

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

The first one was how he was talking about hanging and how to hang yourself or electrocute. How could he electrocute himself?

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

At home, he wrote about wanting to avoid pain and fear. He inquired about household items he might use. And in one post he uploaded a photo of a rope and the knot he intended to use, hoping for feedback.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

And someone said, well, you don't sound quite sure about that method, so why don't you try the sodium nitrite method as it's, it's easier, it's easier to get hold of.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Towards the end of that message there was a link to a 3300 word instruction manual detailing exactly how to use it. And another user told him where he could order it for about 8 pounds from quote, a popular auction site.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

And he said, well, I think I've found it, can you confirm it for me to make sure I've got the right stuff? The conversation then moved to private message.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Joe bought it from a UK supplier and he posted about how excited he was to get his order, how happy he was that he'd soon be out of pain. One of his last posts reads, I've been a member for a few days and I must say everyone seems so supportive and helpful whether to decide to catch the bus or don't. Honestly, the people on here are actually amazing and so supportive to one another. Catch the bus is how users refer to suicide. It sounds flippin and it is kind of, but there's more to it. The idea is that the form is kind of like a bus stop, a place where people gather, where they keep one another company for a time and then move on. A few days after Joe made that post, a slim courier envelope landed on Catherine's doorstep. April 3, 2020. Joe died in the early hours the next morning. So after Joe's death, you've now spent a bunch of time on this site and you were saying like you were kind of obsessed with it, right?

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

Morning, night, lunch, breakfast. Go on.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

Still, still, it's normal.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

It's normal every day.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

So what role do you think it played in Joe's death?

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

Joe wouldn't have done it if he hadn't found out about that method. He took his life because that was a simple solution to him. That wouldn't hurt him and it wouldn't take long.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Do you not think he'd find that through some other means eventually or.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

No, because it wasn't anywhere else.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

Where else do you find it? And it wasn't very common in 2020, like in any of the coroner's reports or the paper

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

in the uk. Any unnatural death is followed up by a coroner's inquest. And if there's an ongoing public health risk, they'll send a report to whatever authority they feel can do something about it. In Joe's case, the coroner issued reports to the police and to the government ministry in charge of health policy in the uk. The coroner was concerned about the sale of the substance. Those supplying relatively small amounts of sodium nitrate should be made aware of the implications of their trade. But his bigger concern was what was happening on the website. Websites may be actively promoting a particular method of committing suicide and hence breaking the criminal law by assisting suicide. Consideration should be given to blocking their availability in the uk. In the lead up to the coroner's inquest, the police interviewed Catherine and Melanie, as well as Joe's two older brothers and younger sister. It gave the family a chance to ask a lingering question. What was in Joe's fourth note, the one he had addressed to the police?

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

A police officer that worked within the coroner's office, that Annette said at some point, can you read that note out that he left for the police? Because we never knew what it said. And she did, and she did one for the police. And it's, this is a suicide, please, this isn't my family. I've struggled with mental health for a long time. You'll find nothing was touched, helped or anything by anyone. If you get my phone, you'll see a website. It has all the details and methods on suicide. And then you put the bottom, please do your best in closing that website. For anyone else.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

You've been on this site, you know it now fairly well, but what's going through your mind when you read Joe saying like, stop, this site has to be shut down. What's going through your mind?

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

We see it as, that was his final ask, that was his final wish.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Joe found exactly what he was looking for on the site. The method he used, a sense of support. So what was it about the site that made him think it ought to be shut down?

[CBC Promo Announcer]

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[Tina (Site User)]

Jacqueline Furlin Smith, a 40 year old former Canadian military trainer, moves to Costa Rica to follow her dreams. But in the summer of 2021 vanishes without a trace.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

How can a woman just go missing and us put out all that effort to find her and she's still missing?

[Tina (Site User)]

I'm David Ridgeon and this is Someone knows something Season 10 the Jacqueline Furlan

[CBC Promo Announcer]

Smith Case Listen ad free on Amazon.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Can you remember back? Like take me back to that point when you first became aware of the site and understood what this place was.

[Tina (Site User)]

Yeah, initially it was almost like finding somewhere where you could sort of speak with like minded individuals who were also going through similar thought processes.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Tina came to the site in the same way Jo did, searching for ways to kill herself. Tina, which isn't her real name, is in her early 50s now. She struggled with depression for most of

[Tina (Site User)]

her life, I'd say from about 16, 17. I've struggled with sores all the way through just due to various traumas.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

In her early 20s she was prescribed meds, which she eventually tried overdosing on. And then because she felt she couldn't really talk to anyone about how she was feeling, she spent most of the next three decades not talking about it until she found the site. We provide a safe space to discuss the topic of suicide without the censorship of other places as well. As a community that can understand you and let you be yourself without judging you or forcing you to do anything. The site draws tens of thousands of members, hundreds of thousands of casual visitors. Every time I feel anxious or uncomfortable, I'd think of suicide. Has anyone else experienced something similar? People from around the world looking for information.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

I'm new to this forum and this is my first post.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

I just have a question sharing the resolve their methods.

[Anonymous Site User]

Here are pictures of the setup I ended up using. I ended up in a cozy hotel with a surreal feel to it.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Their pain.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Everyone. I am so sorry. I tried. I've tried for years. After nine attempts, two hospital admissions, 15 hospital visits and a whole lot of pain, I'm done with this world.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

There are nearly 3 million posts on the site's public facing message boards. There's one devoted to recovery, one devoted to random discussions, movies, games, hobbies, that sort of thing. But the most popular one, by at least an order of magnitude is the suicide board, where users are invited to, quote, ask the questions you can't ask anywhere else. You were there, I guess, initially to understand more methods about how to kill yourself. Can you tell me what was your experience exploring those? What was that like initially?

[Tina (Site User)]

It was really weird to find such information so easily. Sound and the detail and the level of detail rather, that goes into what they give you. On any different method that you want, people posting, like things that you could click on a link that sort of would take you to where someone's actually harmed themselves. This is almost like they'll say, this is how somebody hangs themselves. And then they'll show a link of somebody who's done that. And some of it was just so gory, just so detailed, so graphic. It's things you can't unsee. It's things you can't just can't unsee them.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

There's no reliable way of predicting who will try to kill themselves, not at an individual level. And there's generally no single trigger. But there are some ways of reducing the overall risk. Don't share new methods, let alone step by step. Suicide guides don't make it easy for people to get their hands on those methods. Don't promote them as especially painless or easy. And more generally don't normalize the act of suicide, let alone romanticize it. The site did all these things and that started to make Tina feel sort of uneasy

[Tina (Site User)]

after being there a couple of days, it was different. It was almost like an unspoken ethos really. You don't offer help to people because you know someone's about to take their lives. You just wish them well and happy travels, safe travels and be done with it. And that's what I was witnessing, like, constantly. And I. I joined in with that on one occasion, just thinking, oh, this is how we've got to be. But it was a bizarre feeling in the sense of the Daxalta somewhere that we've. I could just chat to people. He knew what it felt like. And it turned out for me not to be that at all. Just became something different, completely different, and started changing me as a person. It changed me.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Okay, can you tell me about that change? What do you mean?

[Tina (Site User)]

Well, initially, when I was joining in with them, sort of wishing people well, knew they were dying and did nothing about it because she did try and help anybody, people didn't like it at all, especially on what they called someone's Goodbye thread.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

A goodbye thread is a specific kind of post. Generally it's the last one someone makes. They're all over the site and they're the toughest ones to read.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Committing suicide is so lonely because you want to say goodbye, but you can't. So strangers on an Internet forum are my alternative. Thank you for being here with me before I go.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

They're basically digital suicide notes. But often they're more than that. Some users fastidiously chronicle the last days and hours of their lives. Sometimes they start posting just as they're making an attempt.

[Anonymous Site User]

I took the snow. My heart is beating fast. It feels like I've been on a run. I feel like I need to breathe really hard.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

And sometimes other users talk them through.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

Will be alright. Just please take it one breath at a time.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

See you on the other side.

[Anonymous Site User]

My head is making a slightly screeching noise. I don't feel as bad. Now we are here with you. I hope you are calm.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Are you sure about it?

[Jamie (Narrator)]

You can still call for an ambulance.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

It's your choice.

[Anonymous Site User]

My finger feels numb, like I can barely move it.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

That was the last post this user made.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

Safe travels. Let's meet on the other side soon

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

with your report. You gave me more strength to do

[Anonymous Site User]

it the same way.

[Tina (Site User)]

Thank you. A lot of us are in similar boats. But still, to witness someone actually leaving, wondering what else they're thinking, remembering. I broke down reading their final words. It was almost traumatizing to a point. Knowing exactly what people were doing and nobody was stuck in it, or at least trying.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

It's interesting to hear this because on one hand, clearly you must have been empathetic towards people who wanted to kill themselves, right? And you'd gone to this place because, you know, for that same reason. It sounds to me like there's an inner conflict going on.

[Tina (Site User)]

It's complete conflict. Because I know sometimes I didn't try and offer help or anything either, which makes me feel. Would make me feel horrendous. But I was just too scared to do so. I didn't want to be kicked off the site. I still wanted to stay on there. But the other side of it is just from a humane point of view, really. It's just like thinking, what is this? If the last cry had help, what ifs you could save them.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Why did it feel so important for you to remain part of this site?

[Tina (Site User)]

Honestly, I don't know. It kind of was almost like an addiction for me. It became an addiction. I needed to sort of be there. I needed to read things. I needed to know there were other people like me just reading about other people's deaths and refining what they're doing and people making sure it's going to be, you know, that it's going to work. It's just. Just mind blowing. Absolutely mind blowing.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

By this time, it was November 2020, six months after Joe's death. Catherine and Melanie were on the war path. They'd taken to Facebook and what was back then, Twitter, trying to raise awareness about the site. And they were feuding with some of the site's supporters and they were starting to get noticed by the British press.

[Tina (Site User)]

I'd seen a story about another young person who had taken their lives, who had been on the website, which then led to another story, which then led to me finding Catherine on Twitter. And I just reached out to her and just started talking. But she made herself available all the time to talk and she kept in contact and told me basically that the site is bad, which I could see for myself. I could see the damage it was doing to me and the person. With her help, I came off the site.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Though she wasn't off the site for long.

[Tina (Site User)]

I started struggling again. I got really, really bad. But then I went back on the site. Not just because I wanted to learn more. I'd already learned what I needed to learn. I just went back on. I wanted to look at methods again just to make sure I'd got everything I needed.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Her plan was to use the same method Jo had, but it was very

[Tina (Site User)]

difficult to find out where to get it from. When someone had made a comment about where to get it, I kind of thought, oh, this would be interesting to know.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Tina posted something to that effect on the site. Shortly after that, another user sent her a direct message.

[Tina (Site User)]

The DM just came from nowhere. I'd never interacted with a person before, never spoken to them. And he just came in and said that he can offer some help and just said sl and the website. And that was from someone called Greenberg.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Greenberg. Tina could see from his profile that he had been a member for a few years. Greenberg had made hundreds of posts, and not just as a casual user. He was touted as a resident expert in some of the most popular suicide methods, someone members regularly turned to for advice.

[Tina (Site User)]

He said, I think I can help. And then just the Time Cuisine website,

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

imtime, or imtime Cuisine. It was an external site for a company based just west of Toronto. It sold a handful of items, all it seemed, for preparing cured meat, a couple of fancy sea salts, some liquid smoke, and 50 gram packets of 99. 999% pure sodium nitrite for just under 60 bucks Canadian.

[Tina (Site User)]

So I just went to the website and saw and, oh, this is great. How easy was that to get hold of? And, yeah, I didn't post it immediately, but the website reminded me I had something in my shopping cart. So at that point I was really low and I just horses when I purchased it. I told Catherine.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Catherine had been so sympathetic and so understanding, Tina was convinced she wouldn't actually stop her. And because Tina trusted them so much, Catherine and Melanie were able to wheedle the tracking number out of her.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

We'd got in touch with Royal Mail to try and stop the parcel from getting delivered, explained what it was, what it was in it, what it was going to be used for, and they said that they couldn't intercept any parcels. Says what? Even though someone's going to kill themselves with it when they receive it? Yeah, we can't do anything about that. And we had to just wait.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

The substance isn't illegal, so the only thing Catherine and Melanie could do was to keep an eye on where the package was.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

Mel checked it and it still said it was in Canada, but it wasn't.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

The tracking info had lagged. The package was in the UK already. It was actually in Tina's hands and

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

she messaged me and she said, don't be alarmed, just want to tell you it's arrived.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

When she said it arrived, we rang the police straight away, but because she wasn't in imminent danger at that point, they said, oh, well, yeah, we'll pop in at some point, but she has something that has got delivered to her, she is going to kill herself with it.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

So I called her, we were talking and I just knew how she was, that she was going to do it there and then.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

How did you know that?

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

By advice, by how she was talking.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Catherine kept Tina talking while Melanie called the police. She told them time was running out. She could tell that Katherine was having trouble keeping Tina on the phone.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

She started crying, didn't she, on the phone, and said, I really love you and thank you for everything you've done. And. And she just said I love you and put the phone down.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Before Tina could do anything, there was a knock on her door and when she opened it, she was met by a half dozen policemen.

[Tina (Site User)]

They questioned me a bit. I wouldn't let them in the house. They did sort of threaten a little bit if I had this stuff still, if I don't give it to them, they're going to come in the house. To find it. So I had no choice but to give up the stuff. So they confiscated it from me. That was that.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

If that hadn't happened, would you have followed through with this? Were you at that point?

[Tina (Site User)]

I believe so, yes. Yeah.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Once the police left, Tina called Katherine back.

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

She said, did you ring them? And we said, yeah, and you're probably gonna be really mad, but yes, we did. And if you don't want to talk to us ever again, that's fine, but at least we know you safe.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

How did you feel towards Katherine at that point?

[Tina (Site User)]

Honestly, I felt quite angry. Well, not angry, but I felt betrayed because I didn't think she would do that. I don't know why I didn't think that. Because that's what she does. She saves people. I don't know why I thought that. Yeah, I just felt so betrayed and so hurt. Yeah, it just really hurt that she'd done that.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Catherine and Melanie have actually done this a few times, prevented active suicide attempts. You feel that you have the right to interfere with someone's plans to kill themselves, clearly, because you did so. Why?

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

Because she didn't need to today. It was a temporary crisis she was in. Every person we've spoken with that we've intervened, the reasons were not valid. To take your life,

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

according to you

[Melanie (Daughter-in-law of Catherine)]

guys and according to them, after they've all said it is a temporary crisis and with a bit of time, you can get there. And I can't sit and know that somebody's doing it if I know where they are. A nut tag.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

The vast majority of people who survive a suicide attempt or who are prevented from killing themselves are grateful. One of the defining characteristics of suicidal thinking is that it distorts our decision making. It makes the most destructive choice you can make seem in the moment, like the only choice. Which is why one of the most effective ways of preventing suicide is simply to convince someone to wait it out, like bad weather. How were you coping after this?

[Tina (Site User)]

Immediately, I wasn't being great, but I was on the same as Catherine a lot at that point. Even though I felt betrayed, I trust her.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

What prevented you from trying to kill yourself again? At that point, I had no access.

[Tina (Site User)]

But then I did get to a point of, okay, no, this is. This is not what I want to do.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

How have you been?

[Tina (Site User)]

Since I've had my moments, I've had very darn times that I did actually reach out for help again. And this time around, I've actually been heard and have been given the help.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

Presumably, people listening to this series, you know, some of those folks are going to be struggling with some of the thoughts that you've had, some of the feelings you've had. Do you want to give anyone who's listening a direct message?

[Tina (Site User)]

The only thing I can say is just keep looking for help. Keep asking. Just keep asking. Especially if they just want the pain to end, because it does come. The help does come.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

A few weeks after police came to Tina's door, they were back. But this time it was more than a wellness check. They needed Tina's help in an investigation. Police around the world had connected more than a hundred deaths in what was starting to look like an entirely unprecedented crime.

[Tina (Site User)]

I had detectors come to my door as well. And then I gave a statement to the police and any evidence that I had.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

And did they ask for evidence about Greenberg?

[Tina (Site User)]

Yeah, they did, yeah.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

As Tina answered their questions, the same scene was playing out with hundreds of other people across the world. I'm in western Canada and got a 1am Wellness check.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

I had the police come over to take it away from me. I live in Finland, I live in Japan. And the police came today, got a

[Tina (Site User)]

visit in the uk.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

I'm afraid they'll be back.

[Tina (Site User)]

It seems like this investigation is really big. One officer told me that Canada might contact me and ask me questions.

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

As the police knocked on doors, they weren't sure if the people who had ordered the substance would still be alive. And in a lot of cases, they weren't. This is the story of people desperate to end their own suffering. People who are precariously close to the edge. And it's the hunt for those helping them, perhaps pushing them to take that final leap. I'm Damon Fairless. This is Hunting the suicide salesman.

[Tina (Site User)]

In my opinion, he's one of the worst mass murderers we've ever seen. Just because you're using the Internet doesn't mean you get away with murder. Your fault, right? But that's all I can say. I don't want to incriminate myself.

[Catherine (Mother of Joe)]

This name just keeps coming up.

[Tina (Site User)]

Greenberg. Greenberg Greenburn is like, who is Greenberg? If you press this button this time, you will die. We just press the button straight away.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

We would just, like, wake up in the middle of the night and send their opposing counsel an email being like, why the fuck are you still selling it? We lost the humanity in it. You're over there and I'm over here, and you're the crazy one. And as opposed to just like, oh, you're a person suffering. He gave somebody a product, but they still get a choice to use it. Why are we choosing it? Why are all of these people going to seek this guy?

[Damon Fairless (Investigator/Host)]

If you're feeling suicidal or going through a hard time, there are resources that can help, including some that are meant to help. If you're in the midst of a suicidal crisis, you can find them@cbcca hunting. You've been listening to Hunting the Suicide Salesman from cbc. The show is written and produced by Lena Ghosh and me, Damon Fairless. Original music and sound design by Julia Whitman. Emily Cannell is our coordinating producer. Our contributing producer is Michelle Shepard. Additional reporting and audio from Thomas Degla with CBC News. Executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tanya Springer is the senior manager and Arif Narrani is the director of CBC Podcast. If you're looking for more series like this one and you haven't listened already, check out the first season of this series, Hunting Warhead. I take you into some of the darkest corners of the Internet following an international team working to rescue child abuse victims from their anonymous abusers.

[Jamie (Narrator)]

All right, that was the first episode of Hunting the Suicide Salesman. Episode two is waiting for you now and takes you even deeper into the investigation. Find and follow Hunting the Suicide Salesman to keep listening.

[CBC Promo Announcer]

For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.