Front Burner – "What did Reagan really believe about tariffs?"

Date: October 30, 2025
Host: Jamie Poisson (CBC)
Guest: Rick Perlstein (historian, author of "Reaganland" and "Reagan: America’s Right Turn, 1976-1980")

Episode Overview

This episode explores the controversy surrounding a recent Ontario government ad quoting Ronald Reagan opposing tariffs, and its explosive fallout in U.S.-Canada trade negotiations. Host Jamie Poisson speaks with historian Rick Perlstein to unravel what Reagan truly believed about tariffs and free trade, the historical context behind his policies, and how his legacy is now being reinterpreted—sometimes inverted—by today's Republican leaders, including Donald Trump. The episode also delves into the political and cultural meaning of invoking Reagan against Trump-era trade policies, and considers how the mythology of Reagan has evolved within the conservative movement.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ontario Ad and Its Fallout

• [00:36–02:31]
  • The Ontario government ran an ad splicing Ronald Reagan’s 1987 address where he warned against tariffs and protectionism. Trump flagged it as “fraudulent,” blamed it for blowing up U.S.-Canada trade negotiations, and accused Canada of foreign interference.
  • Notable quote:
    • Jamie Poisson: “Why does it matter what Ronald Reagan believed or didn’t believe about free trade? How is Reagan’s legacy looming over or at odds with the modern Republican Party?” [01:39]

2. What Did Reagan Actually Say and Believe?

• [02:31–06:25]
  • Reagan’s original words were unequivocal about the long-term dangers of tariffs:
    • Ronald Reagan (archive):

      “Long term high tariffs inevitably lead to retaliation by foreign countries… businesses and industries shut down, and millions of people lose their jobs.” [02:59]

  • Rick Perlstein confirms Reagan was a mainstream economic thinker who believed in free trade, influenced by his experience of the Great Depression and the Smoot-Hawley Tariff’s destructive effects.
    • Perlstein: “Trump can kind of plead ignorance… but it is absolutely, fundamentally true that this is what Ronald Reagan believed.” [03:34]
  • Perlstein contrasts Reagan’s views with Trump’s, highlighting that Trump’s chief trade advisor, Peter Navarro, is considered outside mainstream economic thought.

3. Context: Reagan’s Use of Tariffs

• [06:02–09:45]
  • Reagan did impose tariffs (ex: Japanese semiconductors) as a “necessary evil” in narrowly-defined, unfair trade situations. He considered such measures exceptions, not the rule.
    • Reagan (archive):

      “Imposing such tariffs or trade barriers… are steps that I am loath to take… Japanese semiconductors were a special case.” [06:25]

  • Perlstein draws the crucial distinction:
    • “There are times… tariffs can be useful and called for… but this is very, very different… from how Donald Trump and his policymakers think about tariffs, which is that you can use them all the time…” [08:05]
  • Perlstein describes claims that Reagan’s speech was misleadingly edited as “intellectually irresponsible in the extreme.” [06:59]

4. Reagan’s Rhetoric vs. Policy: The Hypocrisy Question

• [09:53–11:30]
  • Jamie raises that Reagan also used tariffs for Harley Davidson and pressured Japanese companies to build plants in the U.S.—showing a practical, occasionally protectionist streak.
    • Perlstein replies:

      “He was a very practical politician… but this is an argument about what Ronald Reagan believed as an ideal.” [10:33]

    • “If it’s an argument about hypocrisy, that’s a different kind of argument. If it’s an argument that Ronald Reagan’s beliefs are being distorted, that’s just not true.” [10:33]

5. The Reagan Foundation’s Reaction

• [11:30–14:25]
  • The Reagan Foundation denounced the Ontario ad, called it a misrepresentation, and threatened legal action.
  • Perlstein excoriates their response, accusing foundation members of betraying Reagan’s true beliefs for political expediency:
    • “They’re saying he believes something the opposite of what he actually believed in the service of a President… who clearly aspires to be a dictator.” [12:14]
    • He likens it to “something out of George Orwell’s 1984.” [13:43]
  • Perlstein suggests foundation board members, like Ed Meese, are prioritizing loyalty to Trump/MAGA over factual legacy stewardship.

6. Supreme Court Case and 'Foreign Interference' Accusation

• [15:22–17:44]
  • Trump and allies claim the Ontario ad is “foreign interference” aimed at influencing an ongoing Supreme Court case about presidential trade authority.
  • Perlstein clarifies making public arguments is not interference but legitimate speech, highlighting Trump’s disregard for constitutional checks.
    • “Congress has the power to tax… [Trump] is directly defying the spirit of the Constitution.” [16:34]
  • Warns that the conservative Supreme Court has increasingly bent rules to expand Trump’s powers.

7. Why Is Quoting Reagan So Provocative to MAGA?

• [18:09–22:51]
  • Reagan is an iconic conservative figure whose words have been foundational to the Republican Party.
  • Perlstein explains quoting Reagan against “America First” tariffs is so infuriating because it exposes a sharp ideological break:
    • “Reagan has always been, the towering figure… who brought the party back… after Watergate and set the terms for… the next several generations.” [18:37]
    • Perlstein recounts Reagan’s 1979 campaign advocacy for a North American trading bloc with Canada and Mexico, and for freer immigration:
      • Reagan (archive):

        “A North American accord would permit achievement of that potential in each country…” [20:26]

      • “If there had to be city walls, the walls had doors, and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here.” [23:01]

    • Using this rhetoric against Trump’s hardline protectionism and closed-border stance is “precisely the opposite of everything Donald Trump believes.” [22:51]

8. Comparing Reagan and Trump: Points of Continuity and Difference

• [24:15–26:58]
  • Perlstein identifies continuity: Both had “monarchical” views about presidential power and were willing to skirt the Constitution in pursuit of their causes (e.g., Iran-Contra).
  • Differences: Reagan’s conservatism was more outward-looking, less intensely nationalist, with an optimistic, unifying tone versus Trump’s “apocalypticism” and “carnage” narrative.
    • Reagan (archive):

      “Let us begin an era, national renewal. We have every right to dream. Heroic dreams…” [26:16]

    • Trump (archive):

      “We must protect our borders from the ravages of other countries… This American carnage stops right here…” [26:38]

9. How MAGA Reinterprets Reagan in 2025

• [27:56–30:16]
  • The “cult of Reagan” has receded in the GOP, but the myth is still potent. In some circles, his immigration record is now criticized (Reagan granted amnesty to millions of unauthorized immigrants in 1986).
    • Reagan (archive):

      “Rather than making them or talking about putting up a fence, why don’t we work out some recognition of our mutual problems…” [29:24]

  • Some in Trump’s orbit say, “We love Reagan, but that was his biggest mistake.” [30:16]

10. What Would Reagan Think of Trump and MAGA?

• [30:38–33:59]
  • Perlstein speculates Reagan would privately admire Trump’s effectiveness in fulfilling right-wing goals and rolling back welfare programs, despite likely being appalled by Trump’s personal style and cruelty.
    • “He would be disgusted… by Trump’s cruelty and gauchness, but he would kind of admire his ability to achieve aims which were his.” [32:34]
    • Reagan (archive):

      “Government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem.” [33:28]

  • Ultimately, Perlstein suggests that while Reagan and Trump differ temperamentally and rhetorically, their ideological aims—shrinking government, prioritizing power—overlap more than many realize.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the real Reagan:
  • Rick Perlstein:

    “It is absolutely, fundamentally true that this is what Ronald Reagan believed… and it’s not only the case that Ronald Reagan believed it. It’s what, you know, 99% of responsible, you know, economists believe.” [03:34]

• On hypocrisy and political ideals:
  • “He believed that tariffs were a necessary evil… If it’s an argument about hypocrisy, that’s a different kind of argument. If it’s an argument that Ronald Reagan’s beliefs are being distorted, that’s just not true.” [10:33]
• On the Reagan Foundation siding with Trump:
  • “What is fascinating about this is that… they have a fiduciary value as board members. Right. To uphold what Ronald Reagan stood for and believed—are lying.” [12:14]
  • “It really is something out of George Orwell’s 1984.” [13:43]
• On Reagan’s openness:
  • Reagan (archive):

    “If there had to be city walls, the walls had doors, and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here.” [23:01]

• On Reagan vs. Trump’s tone:
  • Perlstein:

    “Ronald Reagan was associated with… bright, shining, smiling optimism… Donald Trump is associated with… apocalypticism… American carnage.” [26:25]

Significant Timestamps

• 00:36–02:31 — Controversy around the Ontario ad and Trump’s reaction
• 02:59–03:28 — Reagan’s historic anti-tariff quote featured in the ad
• 05:17–06:00 — Perlstein on Reagan’s economic thinking and family background
• 06:25–07:50 — Context of Reagan’s tariff action against Japan
• 09:53–10:33 — On Reagan’s policy complexity and practical politics
• 12:14–13:43 — Perlstein on the Reagan Foundation “trimming their sails towards a lie”
• 15:34–16:34 — U.S. Supreme Court case and Trump’s constitutional overreach
• 18:37–22:51 — What makes quoting Reagan especially provocative to the Trump movement
• 24:15–26:25 — Comparing Reagan and Trump’s leadership styles
• 29:24–30:16 — Reagan’s 1986 immigration amnesty
• 32:34–33:59 — Perlstein on what Reagan might think of Trumpism today

Tone & Language

• The discussion is smart, lively, and accessible, blending historical context, policy detail, and sharp political analysis.
• Perlstein brings a passionate, sometimes scathing critique, especially regarding the manipulation of Reagan’s legacy.

For Listeners New to the Episode

This episode offers a rich mix of recent political controversy and historical reflection. It will be especially relevant for anyone interested in how political legacies are used—and abused—in today’s polarized debates. Rick Perlstein’s insights clarify both what Reagan really believed about trade and how those beliefs have been re-shaped—sometimes misrepresented—by Trump-era conservatives.

Advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content segments are omitted for clarity.