Jamie Poisson (3:05)

It's a pleasure actually to have you both here. I've been looking forward to this conversation. I wonder, before we get into this leadership race and the specific candidates, I wanted to get both of your diagnoses of where the NDP is right now. And what do you think is the most important lesson coming out of that crushing defeat last election? Martin, maybe we'll start with you.

Martin Lukac (3:30)

Well, I think the truth is the NDP always gets clobbered when they participate in minority liberal governments that happen in the 60s and the 70s. And even when they win important concessions like, like they did this time around, dental care, pharmacare, anti scab legislation, voters still abandoned them. I think the platform is actually quite good. But for many people, because of the threat of Trump, the threat of poiev, the NDP wasn't even an option. And I think there's also elements that the NDP is responsible for. There's been years of, you know, overly emphasizing the personality of the leader, watering down their political program, maybe treating Canada's social movements with a bit too much suspicion. And it meant that that pivot was too little too late. And I think people now only have the vaguest sense of what the NDP stands for.

Jamie Poisson (4:17)

When you say treating Canada's social movements with a bit too much suspicion, what do you mean by that?

Martin Lukac (4:22)

I mean that over the, you know, the last few decades, the party has become increasingly, you know, centralized in terms of who runs the party. There's a layer of, you know, consultants that make most of the decisions. And movements like indigenous rights, Palestinian solidarity, tenants rights, they, they don't have the kind of welcome in the party that they might once upon a time have. It basically means that the NDP can harness that energy and enthusiasm that exists at the grassroots. And so you don't really see thousands of people knocking on doors for the party at elections.

Jamie Poisson (5:00)

Cheryl, can I bring you in here? Would you agree with Martin's diagnosis there?

Cheryl Oates (5:05)

I agree with some of it. I think some of the issues, I mean, if we look at the last election and the election result, the issues that led to that come way before the red dropped. And when I see the party and, you know, obviously see it from a Western Canadian perspective, I think we failed to have an offer for Canadians. And I mean the context of the election didn't help with that. Obviously it was very difficult for the NDP to position itself as the answer to who is best to take on Donald Trump. But even outside of that. But I agree with what Martin said that we just, we failed to show that we were different than the Liberals, but also failing to position ourselves as a credible alternative and a government in waiting. And, you know, that comes, I think, sometimes from chasing issues and talking in a way that people, regular people in Canada who are not inside the party structure don't care about. And so, you know, part of that is the NDP didn't have a message on the things that people care about most in the language that people were using to talk about those issues.

Jamie Poisson (6:05)

And just tell me, like, what would that be?

Cheryl Oates (6:08)

Well, I mean, if you've spent any time inside the ndp, it is a party of policy wonks. Like, I put myself in that category as well. The party loves to, you know, introduce resolutions and debate them on the floor. And that is really fun internally. It's. It's good for the party. There's a lot of value in it and sometimes it can be really consequential. But for the majority of people in Canada, it's not the way they talk and it's not like they're not invested in the resolutions on the debate floor of an NDP convention, they want to hear a party put forward. You don't have a job today. Groceries are too expensive for you today day you're worried about, you know, your kids in school today. We have solutions for those problems in language that you're using in your Tim Hortons or around the water cooler. And sometimes our policy wonk language replaces that and people find it really hard.

Martin Lukac (6:50)

To connect with us.

Jamie Poisson (7:03)

Let's talk about the main candidates that we have right now. Right. Avi Lewis, longtime climate activist, former broadcaster with the CBC and Al Jazeera. He has deep NDP roots. His father was the leader of the Ontario NDP. His grandfather led the federal NDP in the 1970s.

Avi Lewis (7:22)

My grandfather, David Lewis, one of the founders of the ndp, said it well, the government and big business both hold hands in your pocket. His generation refused.

Jamie Poisson (7:33)

Martin, what is the vision that Avi is putting forward for the NDP in your view? Does it fill in some of the gaps that you mentioned earlier?

Martin Lukac (7:45)

I'd say there's the three exciting elements about Avi Lewis's, you know, vision. One is the laser focus on that everyday emergency of just getting by that Cheryl mentioned.

Avi Lewis (7:59)

Whether you're taking care of loved ones, hustling with multiple gig jobs, or punching the clock nine to five. Working hard doesn't earn you a living. 100 bucks for a cell phone plan, 300 bucks for a cart of groceries, several thousand a month for rent or a mortgage payment.

Martin Lukac (8:15)

And also forthrightly naming the culprits behind the crisis. So, you know, the grocery giants, the big banks, the tech roligarchs, the mega landlords, the oil barons, all of them enabled by a, you know, liberal conservative alliance in Ottawa who are raking in record profits while working people can afford a basic dignified life. So I think that forthright naming is crucial. And then the second thing is that I think he's proposing bold policies that actually meet the measure of the moment. So that includes major tax hikes on the ultra rich and a government that actually improves people's lives materially. So whether that's, you know, providing affordable options for food, homes, phones, a massive build out of public housing, you know, free and functional public transit, and a Green New Deal which takes those climate solutions and actually embeds them in how we materially improve people's everyday lives.

Avi Lewis (9:16)

And by that we don't just mean renewable energy, we mean a green industrial strategy embedding climate justice in the way we improve the everyday life of Canadians. From heat pumps for all.

Jamie Poisson (9:31)

To deep.

Avi Lewis (9:32)

Energy retrofits, to union jobs in clean manufacturing of high efficiency domestic appliances.

Martin Lukac (9:39)

The last thing that I think is important and really distinguishes his campaign is that, yeah, he wants to open the party to the energy of the grassroots and social movements. And that's, I think, because he understands that the only way a party can actually hope to realize this kind of bold program is by building a movement of people who can take on, you know, the entrenched power of the political and economic elite in this country.

Jamie Poisson (10:05)

Sheryl, I don't know if you want to add anything to what Martin said there about Avi, but, you know, I'm also hoping that you can take a stab at Heather McPherson. What kind of vision do you think she is going to be putting forward? This is an NDP MP for Edmonton, Strathcona, since 2019. She was foreign affairs critic the last couple of years. And how do you think it's going to differ from what we've seen or what we're likely to see from Avi?

Cheryl Oates (10:30)

I think Heather will bring a healthy dose of pragmatism to this campaign. And you know, we've seen the NDP provincial sections in Western Canada have a ton of success recently. We have an NDP government in bc, we have an NDP government in Manitoba. We have very strong NDP oppositions in Alberta and Saskatchewan. Like something is going right in the west and a lot of that has been sort of dropped. Stopping the emotionally infused rhetoric and looking for pragmatic solutions that, you know, don't pit one side against the other. But look for ways to work together to build the tent, to make it bigger, to get rid of the purity test, to say, everybody has a place in the ndp, like, you belong here and we don't have to sacrifice our values in order to do that.

Jamie Poisson (11:12)

Better is possible. So, so join us. Show up, bring a chair, bring a story, bring a neighbor, and let's build this bigger table together. Let's get to work.

Cheryl Oates (11:26)

And I think that Heather has been immersed in that, both as an elected official, but also as an Albertan for many, many years now, and brings that perspective to the party. Obviously, you know, you can't just focus on Western Canada, but having that vision of finding practical solutions to some of the hardest challenges that Canada is facing right now, I think Heather brings that and is very focused on, you know, getting back to church basements and union halls and find ways to bring people who wouldn't traditionally feel comfortable in the ndp, helping them see that their values are our values.

Jamie Poisson (11:59)

How is she different, you think, from Avi?

Cheryl Oates (12:02)

Just very simply, I think that Heather's vision of the party is making it bigger, is saying, you know, maybe we don't use the same language when we talk about what we want for the future of Canada. And that's okay. You can still have a place here because we're trying to achieve the same things. It's possible that Canada is in incredibly successful, incredibly prosperous, and we also have a socially just society. When you have a campaign that demonizes specific pieces of the Canadian landscape and calls out villains and makes them clear, Martin, saying that's a strength, I think that risks making the party narrower and the party smaller and telling people that they don't have a place in the party. And that is really tough to position yourself as a credible alternative to government and eventually seek majority if your coalition remains so narrow.

Jamie Poisson (12:47)

Martin, do you want to respond to that?

Martin Lukac (12:49)

I don't think it necessarily is because I think that what Avi Lewis is saying is actually in tune with where most Canadians are at. I think that the kind of political program that he's advocating is not idealistic or hairy fairy by any means. It's where super majorities of Canadians are at. So whether we're talking about a wealth tax or a Green New Deal or major investments in public services, that's actually where Canadians are at. Canadians are hungry for it. And I think we're overdue parties actually having the courage to fight for that.

Jamie Poisson (13:22)

Let me ask you a follow up question. You know, when you talk about something like a Green New Deal, do you think the majority of Canadians are focused on climate policies right now. That's not, that's not clear to me.

Martin Lukac (13:35)

I think what's, what's really important about the Green New Deal is that it doesn't lead with climate solutions. It tries to embed climate solutions in how we fix the everyday economic hardships of working people. And we've seen Storm Mamdani and AOC advocate for that with some success. It has its roots in the Leap Manifesto. It is all about creating the kind of good jobs we need. Building, building up our local manufacturing again, investing in public farms and food production, electrifying the country's grid. All things which would massively improve people's standard of living while simultaneously staving off climate catastrophe.

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Cheryl Oates (14:58)

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Jamie Poisson (15:30)

I remember when the Leap Manifesto came out which was co written by Evie Lewis and Martin, I know you worked on it too. Alberta NDP Premier Rachel Notley called supporters of the manifesto naive. They are ill informed and they are tone deaf. She felt that what it said about not building more pipelines, for example, and phasing out the oil patch, those would be things that are disastrous for Alberta. That's what she said. And you know Sheryl, like what do you make of those comments today?

Cheryl Oates (16:02)

I think that's still true. I think there are, I mean there are NDP governments in this country who are still going down the path that Rachel Notley went down. And if you remember at the time that the Leap Manifesto was introduced, yes, the NDP government in Alberta was fighting for the Trans Mountain expansion, fighting for more product to Tidewater because Alberta's economy was Dependent and still is dependent on it. And at the same time introduced for an energy producing jurisdiction, one of the leading climate change plans in the world. And we paired those things together basically to say, like, you can't have a climate plan and leave working people behind. This isn't a dichotomy. You have to do these things hand in hand. And I think that's still what a lot of people believe, and it's certainly where the NDP governments in western Canada have had success is to say it's possible to do these things at the same time. I mean, if you look at British Columbia, which is now leaning into LNG production while still maintaining an almost 100% clean grid domestically and saying we can, we can lean into our resource development, we can use it to pay for social programs, we can use it to balance our books and we can also help the rest of the world decarbonize. I think that is a practical solution to say we need to, you know, two things at once. We need to protect our climate, we need to fight climate change, and we also need to protect our good jobs and protect our economy.

Jamie Poisson (17:24)

Can I give you guys a very possible scenario, let's say in the next couple of weeks there is a pipeline on one of those infrastructure lists. How should the federal NDP leader respond.

Cheryl Oates (17:40)

To it at this point? That is such a hypothetical discussion. We're at a point where there's not a proponent for a pipeline project and so that's why it's not on the list. And I think you've heard Western leaders, both in opposition and in government say, you know, pushing forward with a project that doesn't have a proponent, that doesn't have agreement from local communities really does jeopardize projects that are actually moving forward that have, you know, huge success for the bottom line. So just to say, like, how should the party respond to a pipeline on that list? I don't even think it's a real conversation to be had right now, Martin.

Martin Lukac (18:16)

I think it's far from a hypothetical. I think it's going to happen. And I think we finally need an NDP with the moral clarity to say no more pipelines. Not in a moment when the western part of the country this summer again was burning raging wildfires that all the way in Montreal over here poisoned the air. So we can't take our children outside after daycare. And the thing is that when it comes down to it, the kind of provincial NDP governments and parties that, you know, Cheryl and I think also Heather have affinity for, they also don't at the end of the day really deliver for working people. And I think one reason for that is that governments like BCS and Alberta's previous previously can only pass policy that's acceptable to the corporate powers that be. And that's partly, I think, because NDP officials are often working for those powers when they aren't working for the party. Like, you have a revolving door today between the NDP and the corporate lobby class. And it's no longer a party that can really advocate for the solutions we need precisely because those solutions have to come at the expense of the corporate elite. So, and for instance, I don't mean this as a personal attack, but kind of as an illustration of a pattern. Like, Cheryl, you yourself have worked as a lobbyist. You've lobbied for Uber in bc, which is, you know, destroying the taxi industry. You've also lobbied for a coal company that you know, has been fined massively in B.C. for polluting rivers. So if we want to fight for the bold solutions that working people in this country need, it's harder to do that when you're lobbying for those same corporate powers. And I think the NDP's membership, as well as Canadians broadly want government to be regulating and reining in these corporate interests, not rewarding them.

Jamie Poisson (20:04)

Cheryl, let you respond to that, what Martin put to you personally, but. But also to this critique that a more pragmatic NDP can't actually deliver real change for people.

Cheryl Oates (20:14)

Okay, I'll start with Martin's comments about me being a lobbyist first, because that's true. I am a lobbyist. I've also worked on the last three Alberta campaigns, last Manitoba campaign, I ran the last Saskatchewan campaign. And I am. I'm a registered lobbyist. But I think, for what it's worth, I have never worked on any files that I don't think that work against my values as a New Democrat and work against the values of what I think NDP governments are trying to achieve. I do think that when we take these positions, and Martin's not the first person to raise this point, when we demonize professional campaign staffers, which, you know, when I'm joining a campaign, that's what I am, it is just another way of dividing the party against itself. I think the NDP should be a big tent rooted in labor, rooted in activists, rooted with indigenous voices and social justice advocates, and yes, hopefully some professionals who know how to win elections. So when we turn campaign staffers into villains, we are not making the party stronger. We're not making the party more authentic. We are just making the tent smaller and we end up pushing out people who bring really valuable skills and experience and we create false enemies inside our house instead of focusing on the real ones outside. So I think this sort of path to say anybody who has a professional career that overlaps with politics or overlaps with campaigns is very self defeating.

Jamie Poisson (21:45)

Martin, I would love to hear your response to that because this is a criticism I've heard quite a lot, right. Like what this is going to result in is just you guys all screaming at each other on a convention floor and then that becoming the story and then this party just kind of not being able to pick itself back up and move forward. Right. And so could you speak to that kind of criticism that this is not inclusive enough?

Martin Lukac (22:13)

To me, it's not demonization and I don't hold anything personally against Sheryl doing that kind of work or the many NDP officials who do do that work when they're not, you know, working for the party. But I do think it's something that's become normalized and I think it's something indicative about the kind of political priorities and perspectives that the NDP and its current status quo orientation has. I think the way to build a big tent is not by including, you know, perspectives that are favorable to the very corporations that are price gouging and price fixing and ensuring that the large majority of Canadians struggle day to day. I, There is a big tent to be built and I think the NDP can be a voice for that, but it needs to be a voice for working class interests and it needs to speak with laser focus and moral clarity about the skyrocketing profits, the awning inequality that exists in this country. And it needs to put on the table the kind of solutions that a broad 10 of people in this country would be up for. But that has to come at the expense of, of the corporate elite who are doing obscenely well.

Jamie Poisson (23:33)

Why do you think this, Amy?

Cheryl Oates (23:34)

Can I, yeah, can I, can I jump in on that? I just, I just want to offer, and it's not a complete disagreement with Martin, but I just want to talk about it in a few different words because I do not think 99% of Canadians are sitting in Tim Hortons saying we need to take on the tech oligarchs and the oil barons for a Green New Deal. I do not think that's how people are talking. I do not think that's how 99% of Canadians feel. And I think that when we attack big corporations, that is the simplest move in politics. Like I've, I've done it myself when I was in opposition. It gives you a villain. It gives you a sound bite. It gets, gives you an instant cheer from the base of people who turn out for your party events. But painting every business as an enemy ignores the complexity, especially now, of our economy, where millions of Canadians are employed by those same companies directly or through supply chains. And if your entire frame is just about punishing corporations, you are risking punishing workers, too. So a family in Fort McMurray, a family in Regina, can't feed their kids with slogans like let's take on the tech oligarchs. They need their paychecks. They need their benefits. They need stability. And a politics that demonizes businesses risks cutting that support out right from under them.

Martin Lukac (24:48)

But those, those same workers in Fort McMurray are not being screwed over by radical environmentalists. They're being screwed over by big oil, which in this country made $200 billion over the last few years. There is obscene amounts of money that fossil fuel corporations are making off with in broad daylight. And it's not about punishing those corporations. It's about ensuring that they pay a fair share of taxes so that people in Fort McMurray and working class people across this country can have what they need to live a good, dignified life.

Jamie Poisson (25:35)

Martin, one question I have for you is why do you think this pragmatic approach is working well, so well for some of the provincial leaders? I believe Wab Canoe is the most popular premier in the country right now. He has the highest approval rating. Right. Like there seems like a bit of a disconnect there because it is working right for him.

Martin Lukac (25:58)

Well, I mean, one simpler explanation is that, you know, in all these provinces you have two party systems, so there's no Liberal Party. So centrist, you know, leaning NDP parties can win and be more pragmatic because they have a much bigger tent. Federal Liberals are in that tent at the federal level. At the, you know, the federal level, we have a liberal political machine whose core competency is pretending to be progressive and then governing economically like conservatives. And so I think that the NDP has to develop and articulate a much clearer and more distinct progressive alternative, which is, you know, the point that we kind of agreed on at the beginning.

Jamie Poisson (26:43)

Okay. We haven't yet talked about these kind of so called culture war issues, but I did want to get both of your thoughts on that. For example, there was just a book ban, this whole book ban saga in Alberta, this directive from the province to take books off the shelves with sexual content in them. The government kind of backed down, but One of the main criticisms was that this was disproportionately targeting LGBTQ content. Right. And so, you know, this is just one kind of example of a. Of a culture war issue. If you are the federal leader of the NDP right now, do you weigh it into that? Like, Cheryl, would you want Heather to wade into that?

Cheryl Oates (27:25)

I actually had a friend, and I never forget it. I had a friend when we were working in government in Alberta, and she called some of these issues, not all of them. I'm not saying all of them should be dismissed dipnip, because it's like catnip. Like, the NDP just cannot resist. We have to go after it. We feel like some, like, moral draw to make sure that everybody knows where we stand on something. And I do think in some cases, it really does work against us. The book ban is ridiculous. The government should have never brought it in. But the more time we spend talking about the book ban, the less time we spend talking about the much bigger problems that exist in Alberta, which is like the underfunding of education overall or the. The dismantling of the public health care system. So I think in most cases, it is not. It's not politically helpful for us to get distracted by sort of culture wars. But when we talk about a culture war, the general public, for the most part, is not paying attention and wants to talk about, you know, good jobs, affording groceries, affording housing. They want to talk about the bread and butter things. And every time, every day that we're talking about culture wars is a day that we're not talking about that.

Jamie Poisson (28:33)

Martin.

Martin Lukac (28:34)

I think a bit differently, and I. And I. I do believe that the NDP needs to have the moral courage to call out these kinds of tactics of divide and rule. When the Conservatives, and increasingly the Liberals blame immigrants or drug users or trans kids, they are doing that to keep us divided and distracted from the harm that their decisions cause all of us.

Jamie Poisson (29:01)

Similarly, I wanted to ask you about how much space you think something like Israel's military campaign in Gaza should be taking up. You know, I. I know this is an issue that. That does seem very close to Avi's heart. I mean, Heather's as well. And. And so how much attention do you think an issue like that should be garnering throughout the campaign?

Martin Lukac (29:22)

It's a horrifying genocide that is unfolding in front of our eyes. And I actually think it's an admirable overlap between Avi and Heather that both of them have the moral clarity to denounce Canada's backing of Israel. And both of them have been crystal clear in calling for Canada to do whatever it can in its power to rein in Israel's impunity. And I think that there are many people across this country who feel similarly. And so I do hope and expect that they will talk about it during the campaign.

Cheryl Oates (30:01)

CHERYL yeah, I agree with what Martin said. I think there's a place for it on the campaign. I think there's a place for leadership candidates to weigh in in terms of their position on Canada's involvement. But I think that for the most part, Canadians want to know what the NDP is going to do for them today in their lives are on the kitchen table. And for many, this issue crosses into that. But we can't forget about, you know, the, the jobs, the economy, the food costs in that process.

Jamie Poisson (30:40)

And final question for you both, Martin, I'll start with you. I know Avi has talked about how the ndp, or he believes the NDP has a real chance to be a real alternative here. And just do you agree with that, that the party is in the wilderness here, but do you see a real opportunity for it to not just kind of recover and become an opposition, like a viable opposition, but, but as an, as a real governing force? Is that even in the near or medium future for it?

Martin Lukac (31:11)

At the moment, I actually think it's an exciting time for the ndp. There is so much potential in this political moment when Mark Carney has been pilfering Pierre Poliev's playbook. We have a Conservative and Liberal de facto alliance in Ottawa. So I think there's a huge opportunity for an NDP to, that can articulate a progressive alternative to come roaring back. Mark Carney, unlike Justin Trudeau, does not have any skill, I think, at pretending to be progressive. He's a central banker who seems constitutionally incapable of serving anyone but his core constituency, the bankers, the wealthy, Bay Street. And so I think the terrain is wide open for an NDP that can speak to working people in this country.

Jamie Poisson (32:08)

Cheryl, final word to you.

Cheryl Oates (32:09)

Yes, on this I think we completely agree. I do think as the Liberals govern to the right, there is a lane wide open for the NDP to do what we didn't do in the lead up to the last election, which is position ourselves as a governing party and position ourselves as a real alternative in contrast to what's currently on the table. I'll just take the opportunity to say something about something Martin said earlier that, you know, where we've seen this in the west be really successful. He said, well, you haven't delivered for working people I wish I had brought a list with me, you know, but in, you know, Alberta specifically, I mean, there's lots more in bc, but, I mean, Rachel Notley raised the minimum wage, brought in rights for workers that had been long overdue for years, did a royalty review, cut child poverty in half. Like, yes, there's so much more work to do in Alberta, and I hope in the near future the NDP gets a chance to do it again. But I think it is a demonstration that we don't have to move wildly to the left and that we don't have to use bombastic language or demonize parts of our coalition or demonize, demonize corporations to be able to make really consequential movement in jurisdictions and in this case, in Canada. So that's what I hope for, for the NDP in this next iteration is that we take those lessons from our success and we talk to people the way that normal people talk, and we're able to implement a really pragmatic plan to position ourselves as a government in waiting.

Jamie Poisson (33:30)

Okay, guys, thank you so much for this. This is really interesting. I. I enjoyed listening to you both so much.

Cheryl Oates (33:36)

Thanks for having us.

Martin Lukac (33:37)

Thanks, Jamie.

Jamie Poisson (33:46)

All right, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thank you so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow.

Martin Lukac (34:01)

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