← Frugal Friends Podcast
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- [00:02]
State Farm Representative
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- [00:37]
AT&T Representative
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- [01:06]
Vraylar Representative
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- [02:26]
AT&T Representative
Every day, our world gets a little more connected, but a little further apart. But then there are moments that remind us to be more human.
- [02:39]
Amica Insurance Representative
Thank you for calling Ameca Insurance.
- [02:41]
AT&T Representative
Hey, I was just in an accident.
- [02:43]
Amica Insurance Representative
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- [02:44]
AT&T Representative
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- [02:55]
Dr. Laurie Santos
This is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. Many people have questions about how to improve levels of happiness. Living a healthy lifestyle is one sure way of increasing happiness. And a good place to start is with your oral health. Just a few small changes to your oral care routine, such as changing your toothpaste to Colgate Total, can lead to beneficial changes in your oral health. Colgate Total helps stop oral health problems like gingivitis and cavities before they start, because preventing oral health problems is a lot easier than treating them. Be dentist ready and get colgate total@shop.colgate.com.
- [03:30]
Joel
Total welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel.
- [03:34]
Matt
And I am Matt.
- [03:35]
Joel
And today we're talking about buying what you love without going broke with Jen and Jill from Frugal Friends.
- [03:59]
Matt
Yeah. So, Joel, I don't want to offend our guest today, but Jen and Jill are basically like the girl version of us. It's. They just got longer hair. Just kidding. Uh, they really are friends, though. They talk about money on their podcast, Frugal Friends, which they started right around the same time that we started ours, I think, back in 2018. One big difference, though, they've written books, and specifically they have a new book hitting the shelves in January.
- [04:24]
Joel
Kind of attention span. Do we, Matt?
- [04:26]
Matt
No, no. The name of the book, Buy what yout Love Without Going Broke. And that is exactly what we're talking about today, Spending money. We're going to talk about all the ways that doing it wrong, how to go about spending money in a. In like a healthy, values driven manner, ways to support those new habits. All that and more. Today we've got a lot to discuss. There are four of us here, after all, all of us podcasters. So I think we're gonna have a lot to get through, so we'll cut to the chase. Jen and Jill, thank you so much for joining us today on How To Money.
- [04:56]
Amica Insurance Representative
Thanks for having us. Such a pleasure to be here.
- [04:58]
Jen
Yeah, it's a full house. We love it.
- [05:00]
Joel
Most definitely. We're excited for you, excited for this new book. And. But first question out of the gate that we Gotta ask everybody who comes on is, what's your craft beer equivalent? What do you like to splurge on? We're going to talk about spending here today. What do you like to splurge on while you're still being smart with your money and thinking about your future?
- [05:14]
Jen
So for me I think it's a little weird, but for me it's not weird. I buy pre cut vegetables which in the frugal living space is like a gas. Like why would you spend extra to have your vegetables pre cut?
- [05:30]
Joel
Sounds like heresy, right?
- [05:32]
Jen
But if it's that barrier to entry between me cooking and me getting takeout, that's usually what it is, is the effort that it takes to chop a vegetable. I'm lazy, I embrace it. So pre chopped vegetables, you're efficient, you're not lazy. I love it. I love either way to say it. That's my thing I love.
- [05:49]
Matt
Okay, so my wife, she, she chops her own veggies, not to brag. That being said, she does get the pre peeled garlic from Aldi in the, in the Ziploc resealable bag because that is such a time consuming task. And she. And it gets all in your fingernails and she hates it. So she's like, I'm buying that pre peeled garlic. Living high on the hog.
- [06:11]
Jen
I know I take it a step further and I get minced the pre minced garlic. So yeah, I'm just, I'm there.
- [06:18]
Amica Insurance Representative
Jen, has your wife beat like on every level.
- [06:22]
Jen
The efficiency.
- [06:23]
Matt
Jill, how about you?
- [06:24]
Amica Insurance Representative
For me it's paying for car washes still, the like drive through kind. But then we've got this place near us called Woody's Wash Shack. I'm not paid by them. I should be. And afterwards you can wipe down your car and vacuum it out. Included in the price of the wash itself. And it is a party to me. Could I clean and vacuum my car at home? Absolutely. Do I have the supplies to do it? Sure do. Would I rather go to Woody's Wash.
- [06:58]
Jen
Shack and because they're playing the cool like beach music and they got very strong vacuum and sometimes their employees even come over. It's essential.
- [07:09]
Amica Insurance Representative
Their employees will help you to kind of detail your car and then you try and tip them and they can't accept it.
- [07:17]
Matt
Wow, it's like published, Woody.
- [07:19]
Jen
Yeah. Woody's Wash Shack is a vibe.
- [07:22]
Joel
I think the other thing that is included in that is entertainment for your children. If you. Oh.
- [07:27]
Matt
Cause it got the led, all the colors.
- [07:29]
Joel
Oh yeah. My kids are like dad, please can we go to the car, but then you also get some work out of them. They help you clean the car on the back end. So it's worth it if you can find a cheap enough place because it hits a bunch of those facets.
- [07:40]
Amica Insurance Representative
I don't have kids, but it's entertaining for me.
- [07:43]
Joel
You can borrow mine.
- [07:45]
Amica Insurance Representative
No, thanks.
- [07:46]
Matt
Soon yours will be old enough. Jen. That's when you know you've turned the corner. When you start putting them to work and all of a sudden it's like, wait a minute. Life looks a lot different now than when I used to just do everything for you. You're starting to pull your own weight.
- [07:57]
Jen
I know. I do make my 20 month old bring his own diaper to the trash can. And that's nice.
- [08:02]
Matt
Yeah. See, that's progress.
- [08:03]
Joel
I know you got the drift.
- [08:04]
Amica Insurance Representative
Yeah. Life hack.
- [08:06]
Matt
I'm curious. Okay, so our listeners know that where Joel and I stand when it comes to organization or how nerdy each one of us is when we approach our finances. What's yalls take on budgeting specifically? Cause Joel's like more of a shoot from the hip kind of westerner, like a western movie kind of guy. I'm more like a sniper kind of rifle kind of guy. I'm very exact zero sum budgeting. What about y'all? Do y'all have a similar breakdown?
- [08:33]
Amica Insurance Representative
You've got two of us too.
- [08:34]
Jen
Yeah. So I'm very much like Joel, which is so funny because we both, Joel and I have the specific personal finance backgrounds like pre podcasting.
- [08:45]
Joel
Yeah.
- [08:45]
Jen
But I am very much like go with the flow. And I think the reason I love values based spending so much is because it'll allows me to feel confident in my outgo and income without having a really strict plan. So that's definitely more my vibe and.
- [09:05]
Amica Insurance Representative
I like being in the nitty gritty. It's just fun for me. I have a spreadsheet that I created. I like looking at all of my transactions. However, both of our approaches to budgets are that it's like step four or five in the grand scheme of personal finance. There's so much more that needs to come before putting numbers to paper. The way that we manage money, the decisions that we make about spending are far more nuanced than just math. So it's really not the first step for us.
- [09:37]
Joel
Yeah.
- [09:37]
Matt
So like what in your opinion, what comes first? Because I think for a lot of folks budgeting, like let's say you're trying to get fit, it's like, okay, exercise. I feel like budgeting is sort of like the Exercise equivalent when it comes to physical fitness. But what do you think think should should come first?
- [09:51]
Jen
Well, I think budgeting is actually the like physique plan, right? If you have a plan to get a six pack, you then need to develop the skills of exercising in order to execute that plan, right? So we talk about essentially a plan to develop, developing those skills so that you can actually stick with your budget. That's what so many people are missing.
- [10:17]
Amica Insurance Representative
So both kind of tangible and intangible. Tangibly, it is a lot to do with understanding ourselves and kind of what makes us tick, what are our values? What do we enjoy spending money on? What could we care less to spend money on? And tangibly we talk about a couple of things that you can do before you're even budgeting, including a 90 day transaction inventory. So even knowing first, where is your money going typically, what are you finding yourself spending on can help to inform the plan that we make going forward. So we say doing a 90 day transaction inventory because it kind of captures the typical transactions purchases that we make and can maybe even get some of those outliers, the things that don't happen every month, but they happen occasionally kind of a thing. And compile that all into a spreadsheet to be able to see where am I spending money on most often, what's taking up the majority of my expenses, and might even be informative on some of the habits or impulse purchases that we tend to make. What time of day am I typically spending impulsively? At what location am I typically spending impulsively? How do I feel about where my money is going? So even creating a whole other column of essentially being able to journal about our transactions, not lengthy paragraphs, but being able to identify, oh, do I remember where what came just before I made this purchase? Do I remember was I with anybody? How was I feeling? How did did I feel after I made the purchase? These things can kind of help us to understand how do I feel about the way that I'm spending money? Do I even remember it? Did it fulfill my needs? Did it satisfy whatever it was that I was hoping that it satisfied? Did it solve for the problem that I thought it was going to solve for? Can then help us to understand is this where I still want to be putting my money? Or are there different ways that I can be allocating the way that I spend, which can then help to inform the budget?
- [12:26]
Joel
Yeah, no, I like that. And Joe, one of the things you said kind of at the beginning there was, you talked about knowing ourselves and how that's kind of important, an important first step. And you guys argue in the book that the way you're spending money, it's not necessarily a personality trait. I think we tend to think of it like I am this or my spouse is this. And it is this ingrained thing like, are we spenders or savers because of nature or nurture? Like, yeah, is this a habit that we've accrued over time?
- [12:56]
Jen
I think we, a lot of people in marketing want us to define ourselves as spender or saver because it's a lot easier to define yourself as a spender because everybody spends money. So if I have internalized that I am a spender, it is a lot easier for a marketer to get me to spend money, especially impulsively. So I think that kind of perpetuates it. But we also, we tend to live for better or for worse in extremes because it's a lot easier to look at things in black and white, one end of the spectrum or the other, and that we don't have to process a lot of nuance or a lot of like follow up questions when we look at things in black and white. And so the spender saver idea is that black and white idea. The problem is, is that everyone is a spender and everyone should be and can be a saver. It just depends on where you are at financially, what season you're in, at what capacity you do each of those.
- [14:04]
Matt
Like, what you're pointing to there are like essentially labels, right? And the ability to sort of latch onto to certain labels. And in our sort of modern consumerist culture, I think oftentimes we can tend to let our purchases reflect our chosen identity or the labels that we have adopted. Do you think that that's a part of the problem when it comes to how it is that we're maybe unintentionally or maybe even intentionally spending our money.
- [14:27]
Joel
It's almost like, I'm outdoorsy, I gotta get a new Subaru.
- [14:30]
Jen
Yep.
- [14:31]
Amica Insurance Representative
Yeah. I think that these labels that we take on could even go just beyond how we spend, but how we manage money as a whole, how we think about money, how we approach it and then how we interact with it and spend it. We talk a little bit in the book about kind of these cognitive distortions to say it in a clinical way or just unhelpful thinking styles that can become a part of our daily living that absolutely impacts finances, but aren't just a financial thing, but labeling all or nothing, thinking over generalizing, we can do these things in all aspects of our lives, but especially too when it comes to our finances. Thinking I am a spender or a saver or, you know, everything is all wrong and I'm broke and I'll never be able to make more money. Or labeling our situation, however it is that we might label it, I think really being able to look at what have I believed to be true about my situation, what of that thinking style is helpful? What's not actually serving me? And how can I bring in some reality to the situation? I know for me, I can catastrophize a ton when it comes to my finances. This happened when we paid taxes last year, and it was the first time that the business had shown a profit. And we were an S corp at the time. And I had only had W2s that year, which was also very unusual for me. I'm used to being a 1099 and needing to set my own money aside. But I didn't that year, thinking, oh, it's all getting withdrawn from my paychecks. We're good to go. Until I got hit with a tax bill. And I was so overwhelmed by this and catastrophized. I'm like, this is an insane amount of money. Thank goodness we did have money set aside. Like, it didn't. It didn't cause us to go broke. But I, I then was thinking, if I have another crisis event, this is going to be really awful for us. So I. So my husband and I, we have scooters as, like, our second vehicle. And I put a rule on my husband and I that we couldn't ride our scooters until we, like, put more money back into savings because I was afraid if we got into an accident, then we'd have to pay our medical deductible and that could cause us to go into absolute financial ruin. So I just really went to such an extreme with it.
- [17:07]
Joel
Also, no eating shellfish just in case we have an allergic ration.
- [17:10]
Jen
I know we develop it this year.
- [17:12]
Amica Insurance Representative
It was legit. And I almost had a breakdown in our accountant's office where I'm just like, what? How did I not see this coming? I'm the worst ever. How do I have a personal finance podcast? I can't let anyone find out about this. Here I am talking openly about it.
- [17:28]
Joel
Now in front of tens of millions of people.
- [17:29]
Amica Insurance Representative
Nonetheless, now everybody knows. But it took me pausing to realize and kind of talk myself through this situation of, okay, what made me think that I wasn't going to owe any taxes this year and come to find out. It's a problem a lot of people face where they don't withhold enough. Even as W2 employees. It was the first time ever that I had been fully a W2 employee. So it's just. I just didn't know. I'm not stupid, but I encountered a situation that I had a lack of knowledge about. But I now know and I can move forward. I did have the money. Awesome. I'm not going to have to go into debt for this. I can make changes. I can actually help other people to be able to understand and protect themselves against some crisis event in their tax account in office and stay out of tax prison. But I think for me, knowing this about myself, that, okay, I can tend to overgeneralize and what are the steps that I need to take in order to help myself calm down, bring in some of the reality and start to put action to it, rather than just staying in my head and taking on all of these cognitive distortions, these unhelpful thinking styles that are actually not going to serve me well when it comes to managing my money and then ignoring.
- [18:51]
Jen
It and not paying your taxes and.
- [18:54]
Amica Insurance Representative
Just like, yeah, come get me Uncle Sam, right?
- [18:56]
Joel
Move to some island where they can't. The long arm of the law can't get you, right. Just go out on the lam. Jen. I guess when we're talking about spending, a lot of people think about spending as something that they have to do, right? To put a roof over their head, pay the car note. Although Matt and I say don't ever have a car note or something they get to do. Right now, this is the spending that's kind of fun. I'm buying ice cream with my family or whatever. But you guys talk about spending as a skill, so I don't know, I'm curious to hear why you think it's a skill and then how we can become more skilled at spending.
- [19:29]
Jen
Yeah, it really is a mindset shift because we're not taught how to spend money. We are simply taught. We're barely taught how to earn it. We're taught that you can get a job or you can start a business, and that's pretty much it. And then we're taught you have to spend as little as possible in order to be responsible with money. And if you can make enough, then invest it. But we're not really going to teach you that either. So that's kind of the extent of our financial education growing up. And even as adults, nobody online really talks about how to spend money. A lot of the talk in the frugality space is about how to get as much as possible for as little as possible, how to get good deals, use coupons, bogo. Or just deprive yourself so you can live with nothing. And that's great for some people, I guess, but for me, I love spending money. I just do. I love getting treats, I love treating myself, I love treating my kids. I think they deserve it, I deserve it. But I feel guilty when I treat myself. So what's up with that? Like I definitely deserve it. So there, there is this radical middle between spending all your money because you have it and being really good at spending and then saving all your money, which is the other extreme. And usually that's done out of fear of not having money, because if I spend it, I'll need it as soon as I spend it. So where is this radical middle where we can, yes, spend money, but also save it and not go broke. And that is where we found that spending is a skill. So if you're going to learn how to spend money and build the skills and the practices you need to stick with a budget, then you've got to look at a lot of sub skills. So like any skill or activity to master it, there are a lot of sub skills. So like to be good at communication, you also have to be good at not just talking, but listening. And it's the same with spending. So we talk a lot in the book about these different sub skills to stick with being good at spending.
- [21:53]
Matt
Totally, yes. I think one of those is curiosity. You talk about that in chapter two. How can that be helpful when it comes to folks learning how to spend their money in a more value driven way?
- [22:04]
Amica Insurance Representative
Curiosity is one of those pieces that we say should also come before making a budget. And it can be part of that 90 day transaction inventory process where we understand ourselves more as we take a curious kind of not knowing approach to ourselves, just wondering about what we enjoy, what makes us tick, what we don't like, what we can say, easy no's to and better yeses to. And so when we can approach ourselves with curiosity, it includes asking questions, but avoiding why questions. We've found that the why question can really put us on the defense or that automatic kind of fight mode. It's the difference between why do you want to spend so much with car wash? To what is it about Woody's Wash Shack that is so enjoyable, so much better than washing.
- [23:00]
Joel
I love that we're diving deep on.
- [23:01]
Amica Insurance Representative
The car wash, but yeah, the ones that the one is I need to justify myself and the other is, let me dig deeper, let me think more about what it is that I enjoy so much about this activity, this thing, these items, and can help us learn how can we even go further, deeper into those things and possibly are there ways that we can meet that value without spending money if necessary?
- [23:31]
Jen
Yeah. And a lot of that can result in some false rationalization where we'll say, okay, well, my car needs to be clean, so I need to go to the car wash. And that's how we justify things. And then we don't give space to get creative with how we spend and save money. And so, yeah, maybe going to the car wash, you love it, it's a vibe and you can afford it. Then we say, it's okay to want to go to the car wash. You don't need to justify and rationalize your purchases to be needs. They don't all need to be needs. It can be very empowering to want something and then be able to afford it. And then when we're looking at our expenses more as wants than trying to falsely justify them as needs, it opens up a lot more space to get creative with how we meet needs.
- [24:22]
Joel
Yeah, so I can see that curiosity. Maybe if I'm thinking, all right, should I spend money on a video game system or on some hiking shoes, I could see how do I like to spend my time and saying, oh wait, I like to get on the trails more than I like to stay indoors. That's going to help me make the decision between those two things. What if somebody is saying, my curiosity reveals that I like fancy cars, but I also don't really have the budget to buy the brand new Rivian? How do you help people decipher thinking through value spending when maybe they can't afford the things they're into?
- [24:52]
Jen
It's great, like I said, to want things. It's really great to want things. But what we value really comes down to our needs. So often when we talk about values based spending, the first thing that comes to somebody's mind is like, yeah, I like lattes. And like, that's, that's what I value. And in reality, values are much deeper than that. They are technically human needs. And so it's very, it's very broad. But we have found that we can distill what at least most Americans value most highly into four. Four things. They all start with F. And then we'll talk about like how we found those. It's family, friends, faith, and fulfilling work. So some relationships with your family, romantic relationships, kids, friendships, just feeling of connection, belonging on deep levels and then also just on like recreational or hobby levels, some kind of faith or spirituality and then fulfilling work. So not necessarily like your passion project, but work where you're feeling like you're contributing, that you're using your creativity, you're being able to live in your full potential, just work that you enjoy and then also pays you. So those are kind of the four baselines. Pretty much everything we spend money on is really truly to get one of those things. And if it's not one of those, it can come down to something. On the hierarchy of needs. I don't know if you've heard of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but it's like five levels. The first two are basic needs. So we've got food, shelter, water, and then we've got safety and consistency. Above that we've got psychological. So that's where we get into the family, friends, and then we have self esteem above that, which a lot of that can be found in your work. So it's respect, self confidence, stuff like that. And then at the very top you've got self actualization, passion, creativity, innovation, like feeling like you're living in your full potential. We found a lot of that in fulfilling work and in spiritual practices. So that's how we got to these four Fs is looking at this hierarchy of human needs. And so if one of your values isn't meeting one of those four, it's probably still going to fall somewhere on that hierarchy of needs. So when I say I value a nice car, like a Rivian, like they're beautiful cars, they're great, I would love one. But what I, I truly like, I want that. That's not, it's not a need and it's empowering for me to say like, yes, I want it and if I can afford it, I'll buy it. But actually what I want more is relationships with the people I love flexibility in work and you know, a community of people around me. So those are really the things I want first. And then if I'm fulfilling all those things, then I can double check, I can double back and see if I still want the Rivian and see if it's still an important thing to budget for.
- [28:16]
Matt
Yeah, see if there's, there's slack in the budget. Two things I will say, when you say Rivian, it sounds twice as expensive.
- [28:25]
Jen
Rivian. I got, I got dinged so many times when we were recording our audiobook for saying things normal things in life wrong.
- [28:34]
Matt
They're like, Jen, just say it normally.
- [28:36]
Jen
Like it's really Maslow's hierarchy of need. And I still say Maslow still saying it.
- [28:41]
Joel
She also says tomato. So we've got more to get to with Jen and Jill, including like what do we do in a society that is constantly trying to, especially this time of year, part us from our money? We'll get to some questions about that with them right after this.
- [29:00]
Amica Insurance Representative
Monarch is the modern way to manage your money and can be super helpful when trying to stick to a budget. We especially like it for the ways it can help you collaborate and get on the same page with your partner.
- [29:11]
Jen
Monarch is the top rated all in one personal finance app because Monarch helps you make smart money moves. And right now listeners of this show can get 30% off your first year by going to monarchmoney.com Frugal Monarch is.
- [29:23]
Amica Insurance Representative
Easy to use and allows you to see all your finances in minutes and track your spending patterns at a glance. You can also share your account with your partner or even a financial advisor so you can have the clarity and peace of mind your money deserves.
- [29:36]
Jen
After trying out Monarch for myself, I get why it's the top rated personal finance app and right now listeners of this show will get 30% off your first year when you go to monarchmoney.com frugal that's M-O-N A R C H-M-O-N-E-Y.com frugal to get 30% off your first.
- [29:53]
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- [30:54]
Dr. Laurie Santos
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- [31:54]
AT&T Representative
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- [33:33]
Matt
Alright, we are back from the break talking about how you can basically buy whatever you want without going broke with Jen And Jill, including a Rivian Frugal friends. I'm curious, like, I've got a question, I guess about self control. I'm curious if you think it's harder than ever today to just rein in our spending because it seems like at every turn there's a company out there that are trying to part us from our dollars. Do you think that this is a new challenge or has it always been the case?
- [34:01]
Jen
It has always been a challenge, but never more challenging than it is now. In the 1920s and when like PR and marketing really, you know, after the Industrial revolution, when marketing really came into its own, it was. You had to be at the right place at the right time, listening to the radio or reading the newspaper to get an ad. And now you wake up and you open a device and they are right there. Not just random, but tailored to you. And so, and there are so many options for types of. It's never been easier to start a business or to offer a product or service. So there's so many different types now too. So it can be very confusing to decide, do, oh, do I have this problem? Do I need this product or service to solve the problem? And you just have to ask yourself so many more questions than you used to. So. So yes, it is harder than ever to keep your money to yourself.
- [35:05]
Joel
Yeah, it feels like marketing in the 1960s was like, yeah, I want a new TV. But now, like, the way that they can drill down via algorithms and marketing because of all the data that they have about. You can be so specific and you're like, how did you know? Like, the algorithms know us better than our friends and family, it seems at times. And then that can, I think, trigger impulsive spending. And that is a massive enemy of being able to spend responsibly. So, like, how do we counteract this marketing machine and the influx of kind of like proposals to get us to part with our money on a regular basis, Is it part of just kind of like where we hang out and not hanging out there anymore?
- [35:48]
Amica Insurance Representative
Well, first of all, I think it's important to say that we are not bad or there's something wrong with us because we impulse spend. I think that that will forever and always be something that we face. We see something, it seems to solve a problem that we have and we buy it. That's going to happen. And so in some ways, part of the solution can be to factor that into our spending plan. That I want to create some flexibility month to month, week to week on allowing myself to be able to see something and buy it if I want to and not feel like I have to constantly deprive myself. But from there I think it can be helpful to identify what type of impulse spender are we, because we don't. We're not all the same in the ways in which we make impulsive spending decisions. It could be some of the top five that we identify in the book is spending out of habit, spending as an activity, spending as the result of social influence. The thrill of the hunt can cause us to impulse spend and stress or emotional spending. And so that 90 day transaction inventory can be helpful in identifying what type of impulse spender am I, is it, am I typically buying things that I wasn't planning on when I was feeling sad or celebratory? Or is it it's the same day at the same time at the same location and so it's a habit spending or is it every weekend when I'm out with friends? So maybe it's social influence or shopping as an activity. And so when we can first identify what is it that draws me to spend in this way, then can help to inform how will I then intersect this pattern that's happening. And each one is going to have a different type of solution to it. So for instance, if, let's say for me it's when I'm scrolling on my phone late at night and all these Instagrammers are getting me and my walls are, and I've made too many decisions today and I'm just gonna one click buy that thing because it looks cool. If that's kind of where I tend to be finding myself spending the most money, then there's a couple of things that I could do from there. It's, it could mean that I need to curate who I'm following better that Instagram, social media, the Internet can be a wonderful place and have tremendous resources, but sometimes they don't serve us well. But could I be taking inventory of who I'm following? Could I be following following accounts that are talking about more conscious consumption or lower waste or helping me towards some of the goals that I have like meal planning and prepping more? And I can follow these accounts that have interesting recipes, easy meal prep recipes, or it could be that I need to find another activity that's going to provide me with the dopamine hit that shopping does give us that finding something and being about to purchase it really does release for us. And so for some that could be instead of scrolling, I'm gonna watch funny videos or if you're an animal person, you're gonna watch some cute cats and dogs doing whatever it is that they do online or go play some pickleball. Well, if it's late at night, I don't know if I'm gonna like go out put on my pickleball at midnight.
- [39:14]
Jen
I mean maybe you can, but you shouldn't.
- [39:16]
Amica Insurance Representative
But something to replace that action that is of similar value or similar time commitment or similar, like doesn't require you to get out of bed and put your sneakers on. Finding something else that you can do instead of rather than just completely eliminating it. Finding an alternative solution with your creativity.
- [39:38]
Jen
Yeah, we say similar sizes, like they're small size, you know, like low barrier to entry things and you want to replace those with lower barrier to entry things. And then there's medium size and we've got a list in the book to kind of help you figure out, you know, if this is the size of my trigger, then this is the size of my solution sort of thing.
- [39:56]
Matt
Nice. It's a similar, yeah, it's getting a similar fix for that receptor or whatever it is that you're trying to fill there. But you mentioned social media and I wonder like if even more than the algorithms and sort of the different products were fed because like on one end you've got like TikTok shop and literally you've got folks who are hawking goods and they want you to buy that thing. But I'm curious of your thoughts on social media because I almost feel that the exposure to the different types of lifestyles that are out there, that that could even be more detrimental to our personal finances than a one off buying some tennis shoes. Which literally happened to me because Vans was like, oh you love these shoes. And so I bought those shoes.
- [40:34]
Joel
That's a wanna be skater.
- [40:35]
Matt
But that isn't necessarily gonna wreck me as much as following somebody that has this beautiful home. Oh, they live out in Lake Tahoe or there's like these, you know, like the different mom influencers that live out in like Utah and stuff like that. But like seeing their homes for instance. And I wonder if just that exposure to all that's out there, if that has almost warped our perspective as to what is normal. And even that right there causes us to make like life altering decisions that inevitably leads to like our financial ruin. Does that make sense?
- [41:07]
Jen
Yeah, I think it's more of. So I think it causes less of these big life changes like home purchases. But I, but I think that the grandioseness is intentional because I'm looking at this beautiful home and I'm like, oh, I know I can't have that. I know I can't afford that. But I can afford this coffee maker that's in her video. Like, I can afford a small piece of it.
- [41:33]
Matt
You can get one step closer to their lifestyle.
- [41:35]
Joel
Yeah. A small portion.
- [41:37]
Jen
Or these videos that have, like, feature like 40 different products and everybody rage, hates, like, on it. They don't want you to buy 40 products from their video. They want you to buy one there. And you look at that, you're like, oh, I can't afford all of these things, but I can afford one thing. And that's the goal. If their video was reasonable, like in a normal looking house or with one or two products, you're less likely to feel inadequate enough to make the impulse purchase to try to increase or get closer to that aspiration.
- [42:17]
Joel
Yeah.
- [42:17]
Amica Insurance Representative
Which is why I think it's so important to then understand some of the deeper need that that purchase is tethered to. And that can be a question we ask ourselves, is which of the four Fs might I be trying to get closer to in making this purchase? We talked with a woman recently who said, you know what? I think my recent purchase from a Instagram influencer for these, like, cute dresses actually had to do with my need for belonging and connection. And that's a really vulnerable thing to realize and to name. But how powerful to be able to say, okay, the next time I encounter this, I'm more equipped to know, this isn't actually about me needing another dress. I think I probably have plenty. This might be about me wanting deeper connection with people. How do I get that instead?
- [43:11]
Joel
Yeah. And then there's trade offs when you buy the dress. Yeah. But of not being able to do other things with that money. But you're right. Like, I think we are often spending money in a moment of fatigue or in a desire to fill some sort of other, for lack of a better phrase, hole in our heart. And you guys, you also make the case in the book for getting the biggest financial decisions. Right. Right. You basically talk about if you're able to reduce your housing costs or your transportation costs, it can kind of act as a pressure release valve, which makes some of the smaller purchases less harrowing. Like, you know, the book the Latte Factor was super popular. And then there was this whole thing about, man, if you buy coffee out, you're an idiot and you're ruining your personal finances. And I feel so much more of an ability to not stress about small decisions because I drive a ridiculously old car that cost me almost nothing. How big and important is that for people? And the fact that the expensive recurring car payment is preventing them from being able to feel any sort of bliss in those minor purchases.
- [44:08]
Jen
Yeah. Pressure release valve is such a perfect term for it because when you are focusing on these bigger things then you don't have to stress about the smaller things so much. And I feel like. So as a, you know, as a woman who grew up in early 2000s diet culture and I saw this video recently and I just got a text. We talked about this in an episode recently. I got a text from a friend who listened to it and she was cracking up. But I saw this video of this woman talking about how to save money and she references weight watchers who apparently were saying that the way you lose weight is or the way you gain weight is through BLT's bites, licks and tastes. And they're like, pay attention to all these small tastes. Right. I know, it's so bizarre. But she's. But they're like, you can't. You basically can't eat anything good or you'll gain weight. And so this woman was saying you can't spend on anything fun or you'll be broke. And I'm like, what in the actual heck? Like those, those small pennies and dollars are not what is causing the problem. The two, the biggest problems are the income and your biggest expenses which according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics for Americans is your housing, transportation and food. So if we can get. If we can really unless you chill.
- [45:42]
Joel
And it's the car wash and car.
- [45:44]
Jen
Washes was number four actually investing was number four.
- [45:47]
Amica Insurance Representative
No would wiese is affordable.
- [45:50]
Jen
That's a. What is one of those BLTs? Yeah, y'all let you decide which one. But if you. If we can really hone in on the cost of our housing, the cost of our transportation and the cost of our food, then we don't have to worry as much about all the other things. And it definitely takes the pressure off of getting values based spending 100% right.
- [46:16]
Matt
Let's talk about some of the different external factors that we all deal with. How does our environment impact our different buying decisions? Like for instance, can a messy home, can that really lead to more purchasing mistakes as we are feeling overwhelmed at the end of the day and doom scrolling and get fed something. I don't know, something that we think is gonna like Joel said fill that empty hole.
- [46:37]
Jen
Somebody read the book.
- [46:38]
Amica Insurance Representative
I know. Wow. This is. Thanks for this, Ally. So absolutely. We are living within A context. There's this idea that's talked about in social work. It's kind of a foundational concept of person in environment. Pie for short, because food. And it's this understanding that, yeah, we are individuals with our own stories and experiences, likes and dislikes that exist also in an environment within a context that also informs kind of how they are influencing and being influenced. So our environment certainly includes our immediate physical spaces, but also our larger community and where we are. So everything from who we choose to follow on social media to our friends that we have and how we engage with them, the ways that we enjoy connection to the homes that we have and the types of neighborhoods that we live in to our immediate environment. And maybe even how cluttered or how simplified it may or may not be can absolutely bear weight on what we think is normal, as well as how cluttered our decision making might be, how fatigued we might be, depending on how much stimulation is happening around us. So. So there's obviously now so many different things that could be looked at in that. But if we were to just talk about our immediate physical spaces. Absolutely. Having a simplified environment, and that doesn't mean minimalist. That doesn't mean you only have a couple of things and all of your walls are white. It could just mean that you know what you have, what you have does serve you, and you know where it's located, rather than, I have no idea. And I don't know where my things are, so I'm buying duplicates instead. And now I feel stressed, and so I'm going to purchase things that I probably don't need because I feel overwhelmed. And this is the dopamine hit that I need. So we do certainly talk about how important it can be to simplify our environment and how that act can help us in identifying what is our clutter. Kryptonite. What are we maybe drawn to spending on a lot? Maybe reduce the amounts of duplicates that we purchase. The amount of just decor, the things that we think that we need can help us really open our eyes to, okay, but what do I have already? And start to build some of that contentment and also the repulsion of decluttering. And I never want to have to do that again. So I'm not going to purchase things to refill this house again.
- [49:23]
Joel
Yeah, we've all. I mean, we've all been there where we bought something and we're like, I already have that. I found it, like two months later, right after putting the light bulb in or whatever it is that we ordered A second time. And yeah, I think the more we are organized, clean space, clean brain. But I'm curious too, Jen. What do you think about kind of our overall culture from a self reliance standpoint? Instead of asking your neighbor for a cup of sugar, now we can instacart it yet it's going to cost us a whole lot more. It feels like this is part of it and that maybe we've kind of become so bought into this self reliance thing to such an extreme that we're unwilling to ask our neighbor for something even though it probably actually aids in our relationship and our friendship over time. And it also helps us save money. Is there something I'm getting in that?
- [50:11]
Jen
Well, yeah. Our country was founded on the desire for self reliance. So it is literally ingrained in the foundation of where we live is this desire to not be beholden to essentially a monarchy.
- [50:28]
Joel
Thanks Puritans.
- [50:29]
Jen
You know, so we have just like taken that and everything. So much of technology has gone towards that because it is such an American value that it's very marketable. And I believe that it has been taken to an extreme that has, that is really detrimental not just to our finances, but just to our mental health and how disconnected we can be from each other. And so we are seen like if we're relying on someone that we are not successful or that we're mooching or just, you know, any. We don't want to be seen as a burden yet if somebody asked us for help, we'd be more than happy to help them. Like whether they're in, you know, dire need or just we're willing to ask. Right. But we're not willing to ask. And that's just a cultural thing that has been like ingrained in us and fueled by capitalism. And so I think we really need to fight those feelings of like asking for not help but like connectedness and sharing resources is not a sign of weakness, but it is a sign of wanting to be connected.
- [51:48]
Matt
I like that. Yeah, I think, I think we could all use a little more connection in our lives. And oftentimes instead of reaching out to other people, we tend to consume our way out of any sort of little predicament we might find.
- [52:00]
Joel
It becomes so much easier too. Right. Just to click the button. One click to buy it shows up on my doorstep even in hours instead of days. And so I don't even need to ask my neighbor next door for the butter. It's just going to come to me.
- [52:10]
Matt
Yep. But ladies, we've got more that we want to get to actually we're getting close to Christmas and so we got some, I guess some practical questions to get to. We'll get to all that right after this.
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- [56:23]
Joel
All right, we're back. We're still talking with Jen and Jill from the Frugal Friends podcast. We're talking about buying stuff and hopefully just some good advice about to help us be able to buy the things that we actually want without screwing up our finances in the process. And ladies, we are getting close to Christmas and I don't know, I would be curious to know actually how the how to Money audience is doing as far as like what percentage of the gifts they've planned to buy? Have they actually bought already?
- [56:49]
Matt
They're wrapped under the tree by now.
- [56:51]
Joel
I would hope so. Those planers, right? But like, you know, almost everyone feels compelled to spend to express their love at one time or the other and that's not always bad. Like buying a an engagement ring for my wife. That was like one of the best purchases I've ever made. But how do you think about spending to show affection, especially during the holidays?
- [57:11]
Amica Insurance Representative
I think you do not have to spend money to make the season magical or to tell people that you care about them. That doesn't mean you don't have to spend altogether, but I do. For Jen and I, we've both made lists of the things that we will spend money on that this holiday season and the things that are easy no's for us, we are not going to spend on these things. And that has really helped to free up feeling really confident about spending on the things that are these intentional. We've already made a plan for it. This is actually going to be fulfilling versus the things that maybe everybody else is doing or it's kind of obligatory. But I've learned I don't need to spend on that to really enjoy this time or to tell people that I care about them. I think that a well written letter to somebody encouraging them, telling them what, what they mean to you can be far better than some lackluster cheap, 5, 10$, whatever that you bought because you just thought you had to. So, and, and I probably even no gift is better than a tacky gift. But absolutely being able to identify in what ways could I really encourage this person or build them up. The things that I've kept from friends are the pictures that they sent to me or a letter of encouragement. I can't really tell you any other like small gift that I've been given that I've kept or even remember who gave to me. But absolutely I keep the meaningful cards and notes and again, pictures sent that elicit memories together. So I think being thoughtful this season and considering how can I enjoy the things that make me feel festive without spending where it's not necessary.
- [59:07]
Jen
And I feel similarly to Jill, but I have a mother who wants to give gifts more than she wants to like listen when I say that I don't need one.
- [59:21]
Joel
But she's a mom.
- [59:22]
Jen
Yeah, right. There's a lot of people who gift giving is their love language and they just want to do it. And so for, for them, if that's you, then I think investing in local businesses or organizations is a fantastic way to, to live out that desire and that value for you. And even if you like the person is going to appreciate that you invested in, in something local. So for me, I know I'm going to end up giving a few gifts like white elephant or just random people. And so what I did was I went to a local succulent shop and I bought a couple of their $3 succulents. And then I went to the thrift store and I got a couple, you know, bowls or you know, cute planters and I will plant succulents in thrifted bowls. And so I have, I have invested in two different local like a business and a local organization and I feel good about that. So even if the person may not like love that gift, I feel really good about where my Money has gone in the community.
- [60:34]
Matt
Very cool. Have y'all, either of y'all set, like, hard budget amounts for how much you're looking to spend this Christmas, this holiday season?
- [60:41]
Amica Insurance Representative
Yeah, I every month put aside money for the holidays because I do enjoy it so much and.
- [60:48]
Joel
Of course you do.
- [60:49]
Amica Insurance Representative
And I. Yes, I. Right.
- [60:52]
Matt
You know, I'm guessing Jen just follows her heart.
- [60:54]
Amica Insurance Representative
Oh, I do.
- [60:55]
Jen
I absolutely just follow my heart.
- [60:57]
Matt
It's kind of like, I guess, harkens back to the original budgeting question. But that's. I mean, that's exactly what I did.
- [61:02]
Jen
I feel so seen. And I don't know if that's a good thing.
- [61:06]
Matt
It is good.
- [61:07]
Amica Insurance Representative
It helps me to even look back on years prior. Thankfully, we can do that with the Internet to identify what have I spent on years prior? How much should I maybe anticipate spending this year? What did I enjoy spending on? What did I not this year? My husband and I have decided, even though I put money aside for the holidays, that we are not giving gifts to each other. Last year we did it and we returned, both of us, every single thing that we got for each other that now I'm just like, it's not. We're not doing it. That's not gonna happen. But what we do really love is hosting people in our home and eating good food and maybe going to a concert or an event of some sort. And so that's what our money that I have set aside is going to go to. We're just going to eat really well.
- [61:59]
Joel
All right, last question for you guys. How has value based spending changed your life? And combined with that, what are your biggest spending struggles currently?
- [62:10]
Jen
So it has given me a lot of freedom to spend. I have gone back and forth when, when we were paying off debt, my husband and I, I felt guilty every purchase I made. Even if I'd made a budget and I had but put money in the budget for something I still spent, I felt guilty spending on it because it wasn't the, quote, unquote, best use of the money. And then once we were done, I couldn't get myself to spend money because I was like, now we gotta reach financial independence and invest it all. But then I ended up just reverting to my old ways of, like, mindless spending for a little while. And I was like, I'll just make as much money as possible. And so it was really in that season where I had to decide, like, what is enough? What is enough to earn, what is enough to spend? And once I started asking myself nuanced questions and started rewriting the rules that I had, you know, been reading through all these personal finance books and started innovating and making my own rules. That that was values based spending. Values based spending isn't a set of rules. It is a guideline, essentially a framework to help you make your own rules. And that created a lot of freedom for me to say yes to more things that I value and also to say no to things that, yeah, I may like and I may value, but I know I value something else more. And I don't feel deprived. I just. I want to live the fullest life possible. And I've defined what that is for me.
- [63:55]
Amica Insurance Representative
I'm going to steal the word that Jen just used, but I would agree that it, it is freedom and flexibility for me, not just for myself, but I think for those around me. Recognizing that spending and managing money is not a one size fits all. I think values based spending recognizes that and creates room for everybody to find their own kind of radical middle the things that they want to spend on and feel really confident in their money management and that it's okay if it looks different for me than it does for Jen or anybody else. And I think has really increased my confidence in the money decisions that I make, my intentionality, the way that I consume. To not feel guilty about spending wildly on travel, but being okay with being a 1:1 vehicle household and hardly ever buying new clothes because I've really identified. It's okay if you think it's not frugal for me to have, you know, the most expensive travel plans, but here's where I make it work for our situation. So I have really loved kind of leaning into that and just the confidence that it brings. And I would say the area of spending that is still a sore subject for me, it's always going to be food. I've definitely given myself a lot more freedom in. Okay, this is just the amount of money that I like to spend on food. I think other people would balk at the amount of money that I spend for two people, but it, it is what works for us. But I'm, I'm constantly in this ebb and flow of all right, we got to rein it in.
- [65:41]
Joel
I think it's a sore subject for like, everyone too right now. Like, partly it's inflation we've seen over the past four years especially. Yeah. So like, partly everyone looks at that and they're like, like, man, they're beating themselves up. Even though it's just market conditions to a certain extent.
- [65:52]
Jen
Yeah. I think My biggest struggle is never thinking that I earn enough, even if the income and expenses are aligned. But I've just always been a, like, income is never enough sort of like, mindset. Always growing up, we never make enough money. And so I still struggle with. With that part, which is why I'm not like a earn money online influencer or anything.
- [66:25]
Matt
Well, I think somebody wrote in a book that maybe creativity is the solution, Jen. Yeah, but I don't know if you could find that in buy what you love without going to grant.
- [66:34]
Jen
I mean, my full time job is.
- [66:36]
Matt
Podcaster, so I appreciate y'all sharing and I love what y'all are saying here. And Jill specifically. You talking about y'all being a one car family, having old, old ratty clothes.
- [66:48]
Amica Insurance Representative
No, no, my clothes aren't old and ratty.
- [66:50]
Matt
Oh, I'm sorry.
- [66:51]
Amica Insurance Representative
I know you don't get it.
- [66:53]
Matt
I think I may have overstepped. I apologize. Just speaking about my own clothes.
- [66:57]
Amica Insurance Representative
You showered.
- [66:59]
Joel
It's hard to look at Jill, is.
- [67:00]
Vraylar Representative
What he's trying to say.
- [67:02]
Matt
But we really appreciate y'all coming on. We're gonna make sure to link to the book, which comes out January 7th. Buy what you love without going broken. And Jen and Jill, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast.
- [67:14]
Amica Insurance Representative
Thanks for having us. It's been a blast.
- [67:16]
Jen
So fun.
- [67:17]
Joel
All right, Matt, that was a good convo.
- [67:19]
Matt
It was great, man. And the Joel and Matt equivalents over there. That's right, the Frugal Friends podcast.
- [67:24]
Joel
They're our spirit sisters, that's for sure.
- [67:25]
Matt
Totally.
- [67:26]
Joel
All right, so what was your big takeaway from this combo?
- [67:29]
Matt
Mine, I guess this is a takeaway. It's funny because I'm going to push back the tiniest little bit, which is so contrarian, because literally everything they say. It's funny because, like, last week we talked with somebody who everything she said we kind of disagreed with. At least, you know, when it comes to traditional personal, where we came to.
- [67:47]
Joel
Some of the conclusions from.
- [67:48]
Matt
Yeah, yeah. But like, literally everything Jen and Jill are saying, it's like, I mean, totally within the wheelhouse of what we talk about here on the show. But at one point when we're talking about. I forget the context, but they were hating on the why question. Like, why do you spend money on this? And I don't. And I want to push back just respectfully. And they're not even here to defend themselves. But I think it's okay for us to ask the question why? But it all comes down to, like, the tone and the attitude and the heart behind the exam, the self examination. Or be like, don't call yourself an.
- [68:21]
Joel
Idiot while you're doing it.
- [68:21]
Matt
Yeah. Or like, there's a big difference between thinking through, man, why do I want to spend money on that? Right. Versus why would you spend money on that? Like, there's a massive difference there.
- [68:31]
Joel
You can be a curious or an angry why.
- [68:33]
Matt
Exactly. And so maybe that's what we were talking about. Maybe we were talking about the curiosity aspect, one of the sub skills when it comes to spending money in a healthy way. But I think it's really important for us to ask the question, like, why? Like, what is it about this thing? Because what you're doing is you're peeling back the layers of the onion, trying to get at the root of the thing, as opposed to just being satisfied on the surface with a purchase that may or may not cost you a ton of money. But in reality, maybe there's something a little bit deeper down. Maybe you can get closer to the root of the issue. And maybe that doesn't even cost money. It's totally okay to spend money, but it's, I think, like they were talking about, really important to identify why it is, what it is that we're seeking to modify, to fulfill, to find fulfillment in, you know, with some of these different purchases that we make.
- [69:17]
Joel
Yeah. I think my big takeaway was when Jill talked about PI, she said, person in environment. I love that. I thought it was so good. And she specifically called out clutter kryptonite. And I was like, oh, man, this is so interesting how the environment we find ourselves in and we're humans, right? But you can put yourself in one situation and it's incredibly stressful, and you're going to react in one way and you can put yourself in another situation that's incredibly soothing, and you're going to react in another. If I'm hanging out in a hammock or if I'm in an escape room, I'm going to act differently in both contexts. And so I think where we place ourselves matters. The things that we're putting in front of our eyeballs constantly are attracting our attention, and they're suddenly changing the way that we think about life. What matters what, how our spending is going to impact our happiness. My mom, Matt, always used to say, when I was a kid, garbage in, garbage out. And I think as a culture, we're in. We're putting so much garbage into our lives, into our brains, when it comes to what we're consuming and the people we're following on social media and stuff like that. And then if we were just to reduce the amount of garbage going into our brains, there's a good chance we'd keep more of our money in our wallets, too.
- [70:22]
Matt
Totally agree, man. The beer that you and I enjoyed during this episode was a Tin Fitty, which is an imperial stout by Oscar Blues Brewery. Another one we recently had on. We didn't have on. We enjoyed a Dale's Pale Ale. Yeah, but this is. Yeah, like I said, an imperial stout. What'd you think, man?
- [70:39]
Joel
This is what a classic stout is supposed to taste like. Yeah, it is big, burly. It's roasty. It's not fancy. Like, it doesn't have all these adjuncts and stuff added into it, but it's legit.
- [70:51]
Matt
I like that you said burley. This is like a lumberjack of a stout. Yes.
- [70:55]
Joel
This is what you imagine. Like a 280 pound lumberjack.
- [70:57]
Matt
Like, it only does a couple things, but it does it really well.
- [70:59]
Joel
Right. Wielding a big axe after a long day of chopping down trees. Is the beer he drinks and looking.
- [71:03]
Matt
Awesome while you're at it? No. Yeah, I wrote down dark and oily. Like it was almost kind of slick, which then made me think of, like, not like slick as in weasel y, but like, I don't know, oily. And it also made me think of soy sauce. Like, this beer had almost like a soy sauce kind of undertone, which I think there's a lot more soy sauce in my life than there is in your life, Joel. But you'll just have to take my word for it. But soy sauce in the best kind of way when it comes to a stout.
- [71:31]
Joel
But I like soy sauce, but I don't imbibe it nearly as much as you do.
- [71:34]
Matt
I really don't get through as much of it.
- [71:35]
Joel
You guzzle that stuff.
- [71:36]
Matt
Yeah.
- [71:37]
Joel
Just before we recorded this episode.
- [71:39]
Matt
Took my six ounces. Always do that right after lunch.
- [71:42]
Joel
There you go.
- [71:42]
Matt
No, I don't. But we do go through a good amount soy shots in our household of six. But that is gonna be it for this episode. You can find our show notes up on the website@howtomoney.com and we will be sure to link to Jen and Jill's not only their book, but also their podcast if you want to check it out as well. For sure, buddy. That's gonna be it for this one. Until next time, best friends out. Best friends out.
- [72:19]
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Joel
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Jen
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