How Lack of Purpose Drives Your Impulse Spending with Jordan Grumet

Summary

Frugal Friends Podcast: How Lack of Purpose Drives Your Impulse Spending with Jordan Grumet

Release Date: January 14, 2025
Hosted by Jen Smith & Jill Sirianni
Guest: Jordan Grumman (Author of "The Purpose Code")

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Introduction

In Episode 476 of the Frugal Friends Podcast, hosts Jen Smith and Jill Sirianni delve into the intricate relationship between purpose and impulse spending with their esteemed guest, Jordan Grumman. Known affectionately as "Doc G" in certain circles, Jordan brings a unique perspective as both a hospice doctor and a personal finance advocate. His new book, "The Purpose Code," serves as a cornerstone for today's discussion, exploring how a lack of purpose can lead to unnecessary expenditures and financial disarray.

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Defining Purpose: Big P vs. Little P (09:13 - 16:53)

Jill initiates the conversation by challenging the conventional understanding of purpose. She differentiates between Big P Purpose and Little P purpose, emphasizing that while society often pressures individuals to chase grand, audacious goals (Big P), true fulfillment lies in engaging with everyday purposeful activities (Little P).

Jill [09:13]: "Most people think purpose is this really big, huge thing... But I think little P purpose is very easy to grasp. What could you love doing? And let's start building a life of purpose around it."

Jordan echoes this sentiment, noting his personal struggles with the traditional concept of purpose, especially after switching careers multiple times. He appreciates Jill's breakdown, which makes purpose more attainable and less daunting.

Jordan [12:21]: "It sounds like you're breaking it down even smaller. I'm wondering if you could give some more examples of how we could understand Little P purpose better."

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Finding Purpose Anchors (16:53 - 30:13)

Jill introduces the concept of purpose anchors, foundational elements that inspire and guide one's purposeful activities. She suggests several methods to identify these anchors:

1. Regret Reflection: Considering what one would regret not doing can highlight potential purpose anchors.
2. Childhood Joys: Revisiting activities that brought joy in childhood can uncover innate passions.
3. Art of Subtraction: Focusing on the aspects of activities one loves, while disregarding the disliked parts.
4. Spaghetti Method: Experimenting with various activities to see what resonates.

Jill [16:53]: "Regret is a really great way to start thinking about purpose anchors... So it's really the action specifically and not the spending."

Jordan contemplates how these anchors can be integrated into daily life without monopolizing one's time, raising concerns about balance and flexibility.

Jordan [30:13]: "Does this need to be provisionary for us then? If I think about an anchor for myself, does that mean something that I then am able to engage in pretty regularly?"

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Implications for Personal Finances (30:13 - 38:46)

The discussion pivots to the financial ramifications of understanding and applying Little P purpose. Jill emphasizes that clarity in purpose leads to more intentional spending aligned with personal values, reducing impulse purchases driven by societal pressures.

Jill [38:46]: "When you're really clear on purpose in your life, you start doing these things that light you up first and foremost... You start getting really clear about what feels like purpose to you as opposed to what the world is telling us purpose should look like."

Jen shares a personal anecdote, illustrating how financial goals without internal alignment can lead to unfulfilling pursuits:

Jen [17:41]: "After we paid off debt, I thought being debt-free would solve my problems. Instead, I still felt guilt around spending, which led me to chase early retirement without addressing the underlying issues."

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Cultivating Little P Purpose (38:46 - 40:55)

Jill offers actionable strategies for listeners to cultivate Little P purpose:

1. Align Spending with Values: Prioritize expenditures that enhance purposeful activities.
2. Use Money as a Tool: View money as a means to free up time for what truly matters.
3. Continuous Evaluation: Regularly assess and adjust purpose anchors to stay aligned with evolving passions.

Jill [40:55]: "When you do spend, a lot of times your spending is more in line with your values... You start getting really clear about what feels like purpose to you."

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Practical Applications and Listener Advice (38:46 - 40:55)

Addressing listeners who may be struggling with debt, impulse spending, or limited financial flexibility, Jill underscores the transformative potential of aligning spending with personal purpose:

Jill [38:46]: "We use spending often to soothe ourselves... When we start being clear on purpose, our spending aligns with our values, reducing unnecessary impulse purchases."

Jordan and the hosts reinforce the idea that purpose-driven spending fosters financial discipline and emotional well-being, encouraging listeners to identify and nurture their own purpose anchors.

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Conclusion and Takeaways (54:18 - 59:31)

As the episode wraps up, Jill and Jen invite listeners to explore Jordan Grumman's insights further by visiting his website and engaging with his content. They emphasize the importance of ratings and reviews to help broaden the podcast's reach, ensuring more individuals can benefit from conversations about purposeful living and financial mindfulness.

Jen [55:44]: "If this helped you realign your perspective on purpose, we would love if you would leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or a rating and comment on Spotify."

Jordan expresses gratitude for the collaborative discussion, highlighting the mutual alignment in their approaches to purpose and financial independence.

Jordan [54:26]: "Thank you so much for having me. Your view is so complementary to ours and aligned."

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Key Quotes

• Jill [09:13]: "Little P purpose is very easy to grasp. What could you love doing? And let's start building a life of purpose around it."
• Jordan [12:21]: "I'm wondering if you could give some more examples of how we could understand Little P purpose better."
• Jen [17:41]: "I still had too much guilt to spend money... It was not the nirvana that was promised to me."
• Jill [38:46]: "You start getting really clear about what feels like purpose to you as opposed to what the world is telling us purpose should look like."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of the Frugal Friends Podcast offers a profound exploration of how purpose, both grand and everyday, influences our financial behaviors. By shifting focus from seeking a monumental purpose to embracing daily meaningful actions, listeners are empowered to make more intentional spending choices, fostering both financial health and personal fulfillment.

For more insights and to explore Jordan Grumman's "The Purpose Code," visit jordangrumet.com.

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If you found this summary helpful, consider tuning into the full episode for a deeper dive into managing impulse spending through purposeful living.

Transcript

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[Jen]

Episode 476 how lack of purpose drives your impulse spending with Jordan Grumman.

[Jill]

Welcome to the Frugal Friends Podcast where you'll learn to save money, embrace simplicity and live a spiritual life. Here are your hosts, Jen and Jill.

[Jen]

Welcome to Frugal Friends Podcast. My name is Jen.

[Jordan Grumman]

My name is Jill and today we.

[Jen]

Are talking with our really good friend Jordan. He's known as Doc G in some circles, but he is such a good friend and amazing person and he's got a new book out called the Purpose Code and so we're talking about how lack of purpose plays into our impulse spending.

[Jordan Grumman]

I love his perspective on things and we were even able to chat with him a little bit more after the podcast because his insight has been helpful to me on multiple occasions. Just personally, I think there's so much alignment in our messaging but different words and different ways of getting at it and describing it. So if you've needed some, some fresh perspective. This is definitely a good one.

[Jen]

That's the great thing about language. I especially even in personal finance, but outside of it as well, a lot of it is overused and comes with a connotation that either gets lost in the overuse or misunderstood. And so I think Jordan gives kind of new perspective on old language and refreshes the need and importance for it.

[Jordan Grumman]

But first, this episode is brought to you by today. That's right. There's no time like the present to seize opportunities. Say yes and lean into spontaneity. Like coming to our live and in person event at Tombolo Books in St. Petersburg, Florida tonight at 7:00pm we're talking about our book Buy what yout Love without going broke hanging out with people doing a book signing. We still don't even know what we're going to write in the books when we sign it, but we'll come up with something. Let us know what you want us to write in your book. If you are anywhere near the Tampa Bay area, join us tonight at Tumbelo Books in St. Pete again at 7pm we're going to be doing a Q and A and A signing. It's going to be lots of fun. It feels so exciting for us to get to be live and in person and talking about these things and seeing faces and just hanging out and celebrating. So if you're around, you don't have any plans, come join us tonight today. Seize the opportunity. And also the book is available, so definitely order that thing because it would help us. Thanks. Also, when you hear us reference that this event might be happening tomorrow, January 15th, that is inaccurate information. We originally scheduled it for the 15th, but instead it is now January 15th 14th at Tumbelo Books in St. Petersburg, Florida at 7pm so we probably mention it again at the end of this episode. Just disregard the 15th, replace it with the 14th. Assume that instead of tomorrow, it's today because today's the best. We love it for it to be today instead of tomorrow. So January 14th is the correct date and so sorry for any other mistakes throughout this episode that you pick up on, but we just don't have the time to edit all all of the rest of the audio to make it accurate. So take this nugget of truth with you through the rest of the episode. It's happening on the 14th. Thanks.

[Jen]

All right, so we definitely will link to the last time Jordan was on the show in the show notes, but if you want some other similar episodes, we've got episode 454 how to say no to Impulse Purchases. And then episode 378, psychological reasons why We Impulse Buy. Those are really good. You can either search for those titles in your podcast player with the phrase Frugal Friends, or if you're on our website, you can search the episode number and Jordan, what we love about him is he is a hospice doctor who's pursued financial independence and decided that he didn't love everything about medicine. The only thing he loved about medicine was his hospice work. And so this has impacted him so profoundly. He's written two books as a result. He hosts the Earn and Invest podcast, which we talk about spending and he talks about earning and investing. So the definitely two shows that you should have in your lineup. But his perspective on purpose, with, like, big P purpose and little P purpose, was such a refreshing take on the subject, and I can't wait for you to hear it.

[Jordan Grumman]

Let's do it.

[Jen]

Jordan. Welcome back to the Frugal Friends podcast.

[Jill]

Jen and Jill, I am so happy to be here and have a really great conversation.

[Jordan Grumman]

We're so thrilled to have you. It's always such a good time talking with you. You've got such a plethora of knowledge and experiences that blend together to be so helpful for our whole personhood, certainly our finances. So we're excited to explore that blend today with you.

[Jen]

Yes.

[Jill]

Yeah. People always laugh at me when I say I do personal finance and I'm a hospice doctor. Those two things, most people don't feel they fit together, but in a lot of ways I think they do.

[Jen]

Yeah. Which I love. And I loved how you talked about it in your first book, Taking Stock, which was just an education. And we'll link the. We talked with Jordan prior to his first book. We'll link that episode. But it did it. I. Having my. My father died when I was 16, and we had hospice in there. And it brought up, like, all of the feelings and the thoughts and the considerations that you talked about and really set me on the course to where I am now. And so now I'm so excited to see how you've expanded on that in your new book that just happens to launch on the same day as ours.

[Jill]

It's a good day, I tell you. It's a good day for bestsellers.

[Jordan Grumman]

January.

[Jen]

Good day for bestsellers, I hope. I hope. Yeah. The purpose code. So let's start out with purpose. How do you define purpose and how important is it? Especially, like, with our money, because we talk so much. I mean, you know, we talk about money. Let's bring it back to the money too.

[Jill]

So it's interesting, most people think purpose is this really big, huge thing and either we find it and live a wonderful special life, or we don't find it and everything is lost. So we make it really high stakes. And part of the reason we make it so high stakes is colloquially purpose, people think is the why of doing what we do. And I really try to change that definition. Instead of making purpose the why, what I really say is purpose is about the here and now, it's about the present and future. And it's really just actions. And so when I talk about purpose, I'm talking about filling our life with these actions of doing things that fill us up. And it's that simple. And I think this is one of the issues of why purpose causes so many people anxiety is because we make it this really big, difficult, hard to define thing. And because it's so hard and difficult, we often look other places to try to figure out what our purpose should be. And guess what? And this is the connection to money. Most of the people trying to teach us what purpose should be are trying to make money off us. And so if you look at social media and if you look at TikTok and Instagram and if you look at advertising and marketing, they're trying to show us a version of purpose that might look like six pack abs, it might look like wearing the nicest close, it might look like traveling to all sorts of other countries, it might look like running an eight figure business. But the problem with those versions of purpose is they're asking us to co opt their version of purpose. But they're doing it because they want more followers or they want you to buy what they're selling. And so money plays a huge role and they're trying to convince you you can buy your way into purpose. Like if you just buy the good running shoes, all of a sudden you're going to be a runner. If you just buy the best clothes, all of a sudden you're going to be successful and in corporate America and killing it. And so money is intimately tied to purpose, often because other people want us to tie the two together so they can sell us something.

[Jordan Grumman]

It also seems, at least in my understanding and coming to this word, I do have a visceral reaction to it that I should probably dig into and read your book about. But it also can seem tied to the way that we earn as well. Like I have had trou with this concept of purpose because I have switched careers, not just jobs, but the things that I do in my life, which has kind of thrown me a bit for a whirlwind and okay, well, like, has my purpose changed? Am I not living into what I'm like it seems to be so tied to the way that we've understood it, like our identity and the things that are innate within us we've kind of been born to do, like how you're describing this like pie in the sky concept. So I don't know if any of that is aimed at reality or your understanding of it, but it sounds like you're breaking it down even smaller. I'm wondering if you could give some more examples of like, okay, if it's not such a lofty thing, what is it? How could we understand this better?

[Jill]

So I think the easiest way to understand it, and I break it down in the book, is basically there's studies that show that having a sense of purpose in life is associated with health, happiness and longevity. There are tons of great studies, scientifically proven purposes related to these things. On the other hand, their studies also show that people get up to 91% of people at some point in their life have what's called purpose anxiety, meaning this idea of finding their purpose frustrates them, causes them to be depressed and anxious. And so what I talk about in the book is this idea that we probably get purpose wrong and instead of being one thing, it's probably two things. And one of those things is associated with all that anxiety and the other is probably more associated with the happiness, health and longevity. And so I call them big P purpose and little P purpose. And so most of us through society are told that we are supposed to be searching for big P purpose. This is big audacious purpose. In America we say if you can think it, you can build it. So it's not just becoming a doctor, it's curing cancer, it's not just having a successful business, it's being an eight figure businessman or making a billion dollars. It's not just running for the local school board, it's becoming president of the United States. And the problem with this type of purpose, this big audacious, supposedly life defining purpose, is it's really easy to fail. It's very scarcity mindset oriented because most people don't have the skill set, the genetics, the luck, and they don't happen to be the right people at the right time saying the right things. And if you really want this big audacious purpose, you've got to be all of that. So most of the time we don't have agency over it and it's easy to fail. And so it's very much all or nothing kind of winner takes all. Like if you're running for president, you either win or you lose. We just saw that in this recent election. And so this leaves people feeling bad. What I think is a better version of purpose is what I call little P purpose. So big P purpose is all about the big audacious goal. And so it's very goal focused. Little P purpose is all about the process and not about the goal. So it's just engaging in things that you enjoy the process of doing regardless of what you accomplish. And so instead of being all or nothing, it's kind of all or all. It's very abundance focused. And so I think this is the big difference of why purpose feels so upsetting to us is because a lot of people think it's so big we can't grasp. Whereas I think little P purpose is very easy to grasp. Well, what could you love doing? And let's start building a life of purpose around it. So I often say you don't find purpose, you create it. It is true. You have to have an idea of what some of those inklings, those beckonings in your life are of things that light you up, but then you build a life of purpose around them.

[Jordan Grumman]

Really helpful distinction for the person who might have that big P purpose in mind. This is what they're aiming at. How might that show up then in their finances and the decisions that they make? How can that impact spending if that maybe is more so the aim?

[Jill]

So when it comes to big P purpose, I think a lot of times, first and foremost, people try to buy their way into purpose. So they try to kind of buy all the stuff, right? Because if I'm going to be a number one podcaster, right, or if I'm going to be a major league baseball player, or if I'm going to be, you name it, I've got to buy all the stuff and the accoutrements that go with that. And so a lot of times we spend lots of money because we think we can buy our way into becoming something as opposed to the way we really do these things is we do it. But the other thing is, I think part of that big P purpose is often really false narratives about money. We set up money as a mirage and we make money our big P purpose. So it's like once I get to a million dollars or once I get to financial independ, or once I get to a billion dollars and we spend a lot of time focusing on those things, but they don't really fill us up. And a lot of times, if we're lucky enough to get there, because not everyone can get to a billion dollars, but if we're lucky enough to get there, we realize that it was kind of a mirage, and we don't know our why. What is that money going to do for us? I think a lot of people don't realize that money is a tool, and it's one of many tools, so it can help us free up our time so that we can then pursue this little p. Purpose, but in itself can't be purpose. And I think a lot of people get stuck on that. And then once they get there, if they're lucky enough to hit their goal, a lot of times they feel empty and hollow. And the easiest thing to do is double down and say, well, I'm just going to double that goal, as opposed to thinking more about what would really fill me up.

[Jen]

Yeah, I had that after we paid off debt, and I did it so fast, and I thought, okay, we're debt free now. That's going to be this, you know, solve my problems. Now I'm going to be able to spend money. And like, inside, I still had too much guilt to spend money, so I just transitioned it to trying to retire early. And instead of looking at what is inside me that is causing this guilt and shame around spending and the fear of money that's doing this, like, causing me to hoard. Instead of thinking about that stuff, I just followed what other people on the Internet were doing that we're also not thinking about this stuff. And Jill said this the other day. It was not the nirvana that was promised to me.

[Jill]

What I love about that example is it really actually describes the difference between meaning and purpose. And I always say that happiness is made up of both meaning and purpose. And a lot of people think meaning and purpose are the same thing. But in my definition, meaning is something different. Meaning is about our past, and it's about our thoughts about what we've been through. So meaning is the story we tell ourselves about ourselves. And part of happiness is learning to tell yourself heroic stories about yourself. Like, you had these difficulties, things, these traumas, these worries, and you overcame them, and therefore you got to a better place. So meaning is kind of a journey of being enough. And what you were just describing there is not having a sense or feeling of enough. And it was a meaning problem. But if you think making money is going to fix that, if you think purpose is going to fix that. Like I'm going to make making money or paying off debt or achieving things my purpose. You can't really purpose your way to enough because it's more of a meaning problem. And I bet what you found is you had to go back and look at some of those narratives about your life and look at some of those stories you were telling yourself about yourself and rewrite them and say, okay, I had debt and it was a problem and I had fears of not having enough money. But actually I was just a normal kid growing up and had some stressful situations around me and I reacted this way to protect myself and to feel okay. But now you're older and more comfortable, you don't have to do that anymore.

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[Jen]

So I, I love this, the way that you talk about purpose, because it's very similar to how when we talk about values based spending, we talk about values as higher needs and the highest need on Maslow's hierarchy is self actualization, which we kind of talk about as purpose. But so, so often I think that term is kind of misrepresented as maybe like transcendence or this like big P purpose, right? When really it's. And I had to look this up. It's, it's truly just like knowing one's true self and feeling like you're being able to be creative and innovative and an active participant. So how, how can we cultivate that actively in our life? Like, how can we creatively get after that little P purpose? Can we expect to fill it a hundred percent? Like how, how does that work?

[Jill]

So here's the thing. Little P purpose is very, very, very abundant. It is everywhere. The problem people have is a, they think they're supposed to be shooting for big P purpose, so they don't even look at little P purpose. That's one can get past like those big audacious goals and look for process oriented purpose. A lot of people say, well, how do I find that? And I always say, you don't find it, you build it and create it. But it is true that you need to anchor it on something. And I call these purpose anchors. These are the inklings or the beckonings, the things that light you up that you're going to build a life of purpose or little P purpose around. So the bigger question is, how do I find these purpose anchors? And I talk about this a little bit in the book, but there are really three or four good ways to think about it. Let me go through a few of them. I'm a hospice physician, so at the end of life we talk to patients and a lot of times we do what's called a life review. It's a series of questions we take them through that helps them review and examine their life and ask the big questions what was important to me? What were my biggest successes? What were my biggest failures? Well, one of those questions is, what do you regret never having the energy, courage, or time to do? And here's the thing. Regret in a dying person is really disappointing because you don't have agency to fix it anymore. You're too tired. You don't have enough life left. This is not the time to do that. On the other hand, what about someone like us who's not on our deathbeds, who's healthy? Regret actually can be flipped around and turned into a purpose anchor. So for instance, I knew years ago that if someone gave me a death sentence of a week or a month, the one thing I would have really regretted is not traditionally publishing a book. I knew that years ago. And so it behooved me to turn that into a purpose anchor and then start building a life of purpose around that, which is what I did with my first book. So regret is a really great way to start thinking about purpose anchors. Another great way is to start thinking about the joys of childhood. So I tell people, think about your room when you were a kid. What were the trophies? What were the posters? What were the drawings? A lot of times, kids basically fill most of their time doing really purposeful activities. And no adult has told them they can't anymore. So they go play cops and robbers, or they play basketball, or they do whatever they do. They lose track of time. They don't come home in time for dinner. Right? They're in a state of flow enjoyment. And they're not really even looking towards goals. Like they're not expecting to achieve anything. They just want to enjoy themselves. Kids really get purpose, and then of course, they grow up and take on careers and school and all this important stuff and drop all these things they loved. So a lot of people can think back to their childhood, and it's a great place to search for purpose anchors. For instance, when I was a kid, I loved baseball cards. And I don't have time for it now because I have other purpose anchors, other things in my life. But every time I'm on the Internet and I see something about baseball cards, my eyes light up and I get really excited and I almost always read it. So I know from childhood that baseball cards are a great purpose anchor for me. So we talked about regrets, we talked about joys of childhood. Another really good one is what I talked about in my last book, the Art of Subtraction. A lot of people have jobs that they don't love, but if you really push them, they'll say, I hate 95% of my job, but there's this 5% I love. It's like I work in a restaurant and I'm tired of serving people. But you know what? Every Thursday morning for two hours, I do the stock and I go through all the shelves and I write everything down, and I see what we have and I see what we don't have. And I love that part. Sometimes when you subtract out the things you don't like about something, you're left with what you love. And so for me, I was getting really tired of being a doctor, but I loved hospice medicine. So when I subtracted everything else out, it was the one thing I would do even if I wasn't being paid for it. And so for me, that was a really great purpose anchor. And last but not least, if regret and subtraction and the joys of childhood, if none of that is sparking any version of a purpose anchor in you, then you use the spaghetti method. You basically throw a bunch of things against the wall and see what sticks. You try things you normally wouldn't try. You talk to people you normally wouldn't talk to. Maybe you volunteer for something that makes you a little nervous inside. And if you spend that day and you actually enjoy yourself, that might be the beginning of a purpose anchor. So I think there are a lot of ways to actually build purpose. And what I've actually found is that most people, when you really press them, know what they love. They know what they dream about when they're about to fall asleep in bed, what they think about. Most people actually, really, if they give themselves permission, can identify, but they've been told that that's not serious enough or important enough or not good use of their time or for that matter, not good use of their money. And so they. They don't pursue those things.

[Jordan Grumman]

My mind is going in all sorts of different directions with all these questions you're asking and examples that you're giving. I can think of a couple of things for myself too. But when I think about an anchor and how you're describing something to build off of and make every day I can't get away from. Okay, does this need to be provisionary for us then? If I think about an anchor for myself, it to me means something that I then am able to engage in pretty regularly. But would that then be to the extent exclusion of these other things? Or do I then need to go find work that is aligned with those things? Like how do we Parse out the little p from the way that we earn money, too.

[Jill]

So here's what I'd say. First and foremost, I think we have too many rules around purpose. So purpose can be lifelong, but it can also be something you do for a few weeks. You can have one purpose or many. Your purpose can affect the world and feel like it's bringing great social change, but it certainly doesn't need to. There are really no rules. And what I found is when people identify these purpose anchors, anchors, they might identify 10 or 15, and then it even gets exponential, because each purpose anchor we can actually build purposeful activities around. I call these climbs. So I love baseball cards. Well, I could start collecting baseball cards again. I could go to baseball card conferences. I could start a blog or podcast about baseball cards. I could join the, you know, Willie Mays fan club for people who still love Willie Mays, even though he retired long ago. I mean, there are so many different things I could do, so many different purposeful activities. But here's the thing. It doesn't matter how many purpose anchors you have. You choose one or two of them and you enjoy them until you don't anymore. And then you go find another anchor or do a different climb. But here's what I want to specifically talk about. Because you brought about something important. You're like, okay, I identify these anchors, I start building these climbs, these purposeful activities. But should that take over every aspect of my life or should that just be my free time? Here's my answer to that. And it's a little bit of a long one, so I apologize.

[Jordan Grumman]

Go for it.

[Jill]

This is my version of what it looks like to win the game. Here's what winning the game looks like from the day you're born to the day you die. And I know this because being a doctor and a hospice doctor, I see this all the time. You have a certain amount of time, and you have no idea how much that's going to be. And yes, you can exercise and wear a seatbelt and do some things to increase the amount of that time, but generally it's kind of set. And here's the problem with time. You can't buy it, you can't sell it, you can't trade it. Basically, it can't be commoditized time passes no matter what, and you have zero control over it. But one thing you have control over, the one thing you have control over is what activities you're busy doing as time passes. So I love to look at our lives as a series of time Slots, call them days, months, years, whatever you feel good about. And so winning the game is filling up as many of those time slots as possible with purposeful activity that fills you up and getting rid of as much and as many things as you loathe as possible. And so when we start as adults and we get jobs, we can look at our calendars every month for the rest of our lives. And if we're winning the game, we are slowly increasing the things that we love and getting rid of the things that we loathe. And we have lots of ways to do this. I like to talk about tools and levers. Tools are things like money. Money is a fabulous tool. If I have lots of money, I can pay someone to clean my house, and therefore, Saturday, Sunday, I don't have to clean my house all day. And I can spend that time doing something different. I'm winning the game because I can put some purposeful activity into those time slots that was before, not purposeful activity or activity I loathed. And that's increasing that calculus of your calendar and winning the game. But you have lots more tools besides money. So Even if you're 22 and have very little money, you also have your time, your energy, your youth, your communities, your passions. So there's tons of tools there. But we also have levers. So there are three levers. One is the joy of addition, the other is the art of subtraction, and the last is substitution. And so if you're 22 and you're working 60 hours a week, and you're like, I'm so busy, you're privileged, you're a doctor, you're financially independent. Of course you can talk about purpose. But I'm 22 and working 60 hours a week. There's no way I can talk about purpose. I would say, well, well, you have some tools that I don't have. At 22, you have more energy. You have your youth. You probably don't have a mortgage, you probably don't have kids yet. You might not be married. You probably don't own a home. So you know what? Even though you're working 60 hours a week, probably on Sunday, you can spend three or four hours doing something that lights you up that's exciting to you. Maybe you turn it into a side hustle, maybe you don't. But either way, you've used one of your tools, your youth and energy, and then you've used a lever, which is the joy of addition, to add in three more hours of purposeful activity. And again, you're Winning the game just a little bit more because you've added in something you love, even if you haven't gotten rid of a job you don't like. But if you happen to be lucky and you do that thing that you love for three or four hours on a Sunday, it happens to make a little money, maybe you can start working 40 hours a week instead of 60 hours a week. And so this is our job. It's to use our tools and our levers to look at our calendar every few months and slowly increase the number of things we love that feel purposeful to us, us, and get rid of the things we loathe. And so if you start that in your 20s, it may take you a decade or two decades, but eventually you'll probably transition your job more into something you love because you're going to use the joy of addition and the art of subtraction, right? So let's say I work in that restaurant, and I hate serving customers, but I love doing stock every Thursday morning. Well, maybe one day I go to my boss and say, hey, we've got 10 restaurants, and I love doing stock. And Lily over there hates doing stock, but she loves taking care of customers. Why don't I travel from restaurant to restaurant to restaurant all week and just do stock all day? Because that's something I love. And boom, you've used the art of subtraction, the joy of addition. You've used some other of those levers and tools, and now you're spending more time doing things that feel purposeful. And so this is what I think we have to do. This is how we win the game. But it's not immediate. It's not like, oh, I found my purpose, and I'm going to quit my job and go for a passion play and find a passionate job. You might be lucky, but most of the time, it's not that straightforward. It takes more time. Takes time to figure out what your purpose anchors are and what you love, and then you kind of slowly transition your life to look better and better every year.

[Jordan Grumman]

How often would you say that we'd be auditing this or that even those anchors might shift?

[Jill]

I think the anchors can shift anytime. And here's the thing again, there's no rules. If you get tired of doing something or if that thing doesn't light you up anymore, Maybe I decide baseball cards are a purpose anchor, and I start buying and selling them, and I start going to these conferences and these shows, and I'm doing this, and I'm like, dude, I don't have enough time to write, I'm too busy. I can always ditch that anchor and go to a different purpose anchor, which for me is writing and communicating. The question is, does it fill you up? And so how often should we be doing this and looking at our calendars? I don't know. I think we almost continuously do it anyway because when we're at work and we're deciding we don't like things and we start getting burned out, we're doing that in real time. But I think it's worthwhile every few months to really kind of open up your calendar app and look at four or five weeks and kind of go through and say, love this, hated this, load this, love this, indeterminate. And what I love to see for everybody, especially if they're listening to the financial tips and tricks and learning from people like you or teaching them how to be frugal and good with their money, what I'm hoping that they find is eventually they get so financially good that they start having way more control over the calendar. Like I'm 51 years old, I look at my calendar and everything on it is something I chose and I put there and that I can cancel that day if I decide I don't want to do that. Why? Well, a, I've done a lot of work on my sense of purpose and little P purpose, but the other thing is then I built up my finances next to it. And so I have this really great tool which is money, which helps me not do things that I loathe. And so they work together. And I think that's why it's very important to not only think about purpose but to get really clear on your money and try to understand what it can and can't do for you.

[Jen]

This is so important. I think what you've just like just gone all through and I had like follow up questions, but then I just got like so wrapped up into it.

[Jordan Grumman]

Well, I got the question then and you have touched on this a bit. But I'm wondering if there's more that you have to say about as we do this and we become more clear on little P purpose being what we can go after on a regular basis and we can feel more fulfilled in these kind of meaningful ways. What can we expect to see with kind of our everyday spending behaviors? I know you've kind of talked about the larger pieces of earning and maybe job flexibility. Flexibility. But for our, our listeners who are maybe even still in debt payoff, struggling with impulse spending, maybe some low income feeling like they've got more month than paycheck. Like what? What could this mean? The pursuit of little p purpose mean for them with their money?

[Jill]

I think it could mean actually everything because we use spending often to soothe ourselves. And why are we trying to soothe ourselves? Because things feel disjointed. We're going to these jobs we may not like, but we feel trapped because we need to make the money, because we have to afford our lifestyle. And we are searching for joy. We're searching for the inner sense of doing things that make us feel full. And we don't know what those things are and we don't know how to find them. And we're stressed out and busy. And one of the easiest things to do is to take out your charge card and buy that thing to eat or buy that pair of shoes or buy that car. And what I think happens is when you get really clear on purpose in your life, you start doing these things that light you up first and foremost. You find that you don't have to buy your way into it. You can just show up and do the thing and that's enough, right? So if you want to be a great runner, you don't have to buy great running shoes or a great tracker or have the greatest clothes. You've got to run. You've got to actually do the thing. If you want to be a writer, you don't have to write a big writing coach or take really expensive courses on writing or do any of those things to become a writer. You don't even have to publish a book to become a writer. You have to write. So you realize that it's really the action specifically and not the spending. The other thing is, you find that when you do spend, a lot of times your spending is more in line with your values. Because when you're really clear on what feels purposeful to you, that's when you start saying, well, is spending this money worthwhile or not? I could go out and buy that thing, that watch that really looks good on my arm. But you know what? I love hiking. And my hiking group is going on a hiking trip and it's going to cost me a little extra to take the plane to get there. This is going to be a really great trip with people I love and I'm going to spend five days feeling alive in nature. And you kind of say that aligns a hell of a lot more with me and my lifestyle and what makes me happy than buying that watch or even buying that car or buying that super expensive house in the super expensive neighborhood, you start getting really clear about what feels like purpose to you as opposed to what the world is telling us purpose should look like. And I think that just means that we start aligning our spending much more with our values.

[Jordan Grumman]

We couldn't agree more.

[Jen]

You know, we love that.

[Jordan Grumman]

And you know what else we agree on?

[Jen]

And we love the bill of the week.

[Jill]

That's right. It's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name is William. Maybe you paid off your mortgage, maybe your car died and you're happy to not have to pay that bill anymore. Ducks. Bills. Buffalo Bills. Bill Clinton. This is the bill of the Week.

[Jen]

Jordan. You know, every. Every week, we yell at our guests and our list listeners to share with us their favorite bill for the week, because we know everybody has so many favorite bills all the time. But just what's yours? Just this week.

[Jill]

So this week, my favorite bill is a person. This is a bill in my mastermind group. And Bill does me the favor of calling me out every time I do something he doesn't like. But it is a favor because he's one of the people in my life who is utterly clear. So he listens to every podcast episode, he looks at every piece of content I put out. And if he thinks that I soft pedaled something, if he thinks that I didn't present enough of the sides, he tells me. But he does it. It's funny, he does it in a little bit of an abrupt way, but he's a really loving, caring guy. And so that bill called me out on something this week, but I do believe that if people care enough to criticize and to do it on a regular basis and engage, that those people really do care about you. And so that is my bill of the week bill from my mastermind group.

[Jen]

Yeah, Bill. Wow, Jordan.

[Jordan Grumman]

Accountable Bill sounds like putting in the time. Is this his little p purpose?

[Jen]

Is this his bill in my life?

[Jill]

So Bill is one of those personal finance experts that doesn't put any content out, but he can tell you everything about tax law. He can tell you everything about safe withdrawal rates. He can tell you everything about all this stuff.

[Jen]

Oh, my God.

[Jill]

And so the problem is it's really easy for him to contradict what you say.

[Jen]

I love that people who know it that don't just want to look like they know it, they're so confident that they know it that they don't need to look like they do.

[Jill]

So all of us need a bill like that in our lives.

[Jen]

I know.

[Jordan Grumman]

Wow. If you all are listening. If you have a bill who's putting in the time and giving you the good critique, or a bill you don't mind paying, or a bill that you.

[Jen]

Stopped paying, or your Bill Curtis from.

[Jordan Grumman]

Your Name is Bill. If you're listening frugalfriendspodcast.com bill leave it for us. We can't wait.

[Kisan Patel]

M and A can get chaotic. Between due diligence, integration, and everything in between, it's easy to feel like you're drowning in the details. I'm Kisan Patel, host of M and A Science, the weekly podcast that cuts through the confusion. Every week I sit down with M and A pros who faced it all and the challenges, curveballs and lessons learned the hard way. No buzzwords, no theories, just real, actionable advice from people in the trenches. From keeping deals on track to managing integrations without losing your sanity, each episode is straight up practical insight. What works, what doesn't, and how to simplify your own M and A process. Wherever you are in the deal cycle, want to close the next deal with confidence? Tune in to M and A Science. No fluff, just real talk about what it takes to close deals. Listen on your favorite podcast app. Here's to the deal.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back in the host chair at the Daily show, which means he's also back in our ears on the Daily Show Ears Edition Podcast. The Daily show podcast has everything you need to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment, politics, sports, and more from John and the team of correspondents and contributors. The podcast also has content you can't get anywhere else, like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines. Listen to the Daily Show Ears edition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get get your podcasts.

[Jason Alexander]

I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden, and together on the really Know really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions, like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer, and you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us.

[Jill]

How are you?

[Jason Alexander]

Hello, my friend Wayne Knight About Jurassic Park, Wayne Knight welcome to really no really, sir.

[Jill]

Bless you all.

[Jason Alexander]

Hello Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging.

[Jill]

Really? That's the opening. Really?

[Jason Alexander]

No really?

[Jill]

Yeah, really? No really.

[Jason Alexander]

Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500 a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called really no really and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Osvaldo Shin]

Do you want to understand an invisible force that's shaping your life? I'm Os Veloson, one of the new hosts of the long running podcast Tech Stuff. I'm slightly skeptical but obsessively intrigued.

[Jordan Grumman]

And I'm Cara Price, the other new host and I'm ready to adopt early.

[Osvaldo Shin]

And often on tech stuff. We travel all the way from the mines of Congo to the surface of Mars to the dark corners of TikTok to ask and attempt to answer burning questions about technology.

[Jill]

One of the kind of tricks for surviving Mars is to live there long enough so that people evolve into Martians.

[Jen]

Like data is a very rough proxy for a complex reality.

[Jill]

How is it possible that the world's new energy revolution can be based in this place where there's no electricity at night?

[Jen]

Oz and I will cut through the.

[Jordan Grumman]

Noise to bring you the best conversations and deep dives that will help you understand how tech is changing our world.

[Jen]

And what you need to know to survive the singularity.

[Osvaldo Shin]

So join us, listen to tech stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jordan Grumman]

And now it's time for the lightning round.

[Jill]

Uh oh. Uh oh.

[Jen]

I know, right?

[Jill]

Dancing around, trying not to get hit.

[Jen]

Yeah, I know. There's such realistic sound effects. I'm so sorry we scared you. This is going to be a fun lightning round because this is not. We're not going to make it money related because we both have Books Publishing on January 7th. I can't remember specifically the date this is coming out, but. And so we wanted to know. We're gonna all share what's the most fun thing about book launch? Because a lot of it can be very stressful, but there's got to be some little p purpose parts to it. So what's been your favorite part? Jordan, I think.

[Jill]

And this hasn't happened with this book yet, but it happened with the last one. I think my favorite part is when the publisher sends you the book and it arrives in the mail and you open it up and put Your hands on the actual book the first time. This is something, right? We've been working on for probably two years, maybe more, and we've seen it digitally a million times. We've read it digitally a million times. Maybe we printed it off on our white sheets of paper, but it hasn't really looked like a book. And then you get that box in the mail, and it comes, and you open it up. And of course, nowadays, we, all of us videotape it as we do this, but then you get that box, you open it up, and you hold the thing in your hands, and it's just. It really is. It's a moment.

[Jen]

Oh, I know. We get to do that next week. Our publisher said that she just sent them out, so we have.

[Jordan Grumman]

Same here.

[Jill]

So mine should be coming anytime now.

[Jon Stewart]

Yeah.

[Jordan Grumman]

Yeah. We have gotten, like, an advanced reader copy, but it's not quite the same.

[Jen]

It's like, cheaper printing is coming off the side of the page and.

[Jordan Grumman]

Yeah, but that was a glimpse of that for sure.

[Jill]

So you guys have to answer the same question. Of course.

[Jen]

Yes, go ahead. Okay. So my favorite part has actually been, like, catching up with so many friends, like, podcasting friends. I. That's. It is my favorite thing about podcasting is having an excuse to hang out with people and get to know people and be known. And so there was so much, like, getting to know people, meeting new people. We've met some, like, great podcasters from this and also had an excuse to, like, hang out with old friends for an hour. And that has been so good. That's why we did so many podcast interviews, because it's just, like, my favorite part. The pitching is very hard, but it is worth it for the actual interview.

[Jordan Grumman]

You guys have great answers. I think now that I'm thinking about it, there have been a lot of fun parts, a lot of awful parts, too. But I'm gonna go in the way, way back machine and say that one of the most fun parts of this whole process was pitching our book idea to publishers and going to auction and having them fight over us with money.

[Jen]

I love people fighting with money. That goes to me.

[Jordan Grumman]

Yeah. That was exhilarating.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

That we got. We went to auction on my birthday. Birthday.

[Jordan Grumman]

I have enjoyed when Jen and I choose to celebrate. It's not that often, but we will look for reasons to celebrate and. And usually eat food.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Jordan Grumman]

And that's been fun. So, yeah. The collaborative effort in it.

[Jen]

Oh, yeah. The book deal day was actually so great.

[Jill]

But the problem with that is, then there's the panic you're like, oh, no, I have to actually write this thing now. You're like. Because most people don't understand. What we know intimately is that you usually don't write the book. You write a book proposal in one or two chapters and an outline, et cetera, but then you actually have to write the book once they accept it.

[Jordan Grumman]

Yeah, that is true. We were going to write it either way. So it did feel like you might as well pay us because this thing is going to be.

[Jen]

So I don't think I was going to write it if I didn't get money for it.

[Jordan Grumman]

Wow. Okay. The other thumbs out.

[Jill]

The one thing that I think, think, you know, I definitely went through with my first book, and I'm sure you guys will feel this or are feeling it already, and I even feel it now during the second book, is when you write a book and you put that much time and energy into it, most people who don't write books don't understand this. It becomes exceedingly personal. And so, you know, the launch day is both really exciting and just really terrifying too, because it's like, that is just, just mass vulnerability. And especially if you have, right. An audience, because you're releasing it out to the audience, you're like, oh my God, thousands of people are going to see this and they're, you know, what if they hate it? You know, what if it reflects badly on me? What if I messed it all up?

[Jen]

What if I wrote it and what if I read their review?

[Jordan Grumman]

I haven't totally thought about that. Jordan, I've never gone through a launch day, but thanks for all the.

[Jen]

Well, I self published a few books and so I. Well, and just with our podcast reviews, like, people are gonna hate it. And so it's just trying to not read those reviews and not take them to heart. Thankfully, I think we've talked about it so much that I'm like, I'm obsessed with this. I think this is good still. Like, I'm still. I've. We're doing.

[Jill]

Oh, I've. I've read it and it's good. So this is, this is. This is just a given. I've read your book and it's good. So we're not. There's not any, I think here. And you both have continuously spoken truths that people have wanted to hear. And so reading your book, it's like, this is everything coalesced. All the things you've been saying for years, all the ways you've been framing these issues. And so it's very exciting.

[Jordan Grumman]

Thank you.

[Jen]

And I think you speak on such parallel topics with such a complimentary experience in tone. So let's not bury the lead. Where can people get your book and get more from you in the future?

[Jill]

Easiest place is to go to jordangrummit.com that's J O R D A n G r u m e-t.com there you can see links to both my books Taking Stock and the Purpose Code as well as links to all the places I create content. Currently mostly the Earn and Invest podcast and the Purpose Code substack, but there are some links to my old medical blog as well as my personal finance blog. That's [e-mail] Beautiful.

[Jordan Grumman]

Thanks for being here with us Jordan.

[Jill]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Jen]

I always love talking to Jordan because his view is so complementary to ours and aligned. It really just reminded me so much of how we view the self actualization of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It's not finding this big purpose and living into it, but it's feeling like you know your true self.

[Jordan Grumman]

I think where the rub has come for us in the past too is trying to always have a why at the forefront. Like it feels really similar to that kind of conversation where what's your why? Financial independence for paying down your debt. And not to say that it's not important important to identify the reason you're doing something like the reason you set this aim. But it's not realistic to have that always and forever in front of you on a day to day basis. And so what are the things that sustain us regularly? What is life giving? And we've been talking more and more about the simple things and the ways in which our environment and internally we've been curating to be able to engage in the things that really matter that are most valuable to us. And so it's been cool to put another word to that of like this little P Purpose.

[Jen]

Yes. Well thank you so much. If this helped you kind of realign your perspective on purpose, we would love if you would leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or a rating and comment on Spotify. It helps people figure out what this show is all about and what kind of guests we have on. Kind of like Tracy Bigham Pac did when they said great conversations came from this episode came from the episode on Sounds like a cult to remind you gals you are doing great work offering sound advice and keeping it real when it comes to personal finance, spending and living in alignment with your values and more applause emoji.

[Jordan Grumman]

Wow it's so fun when we read in reviews where people found us through how they came to follow us or listen to us. So thanks for sharing that. That's cool. What a cool crossover that happened there. And thanks for taking the time to leave a rating and review. If you are listening, you haven't done that before. That's a good idea. Tell us how you found the podcast and leave your rating and review because that too will help other people know. Oh, if I liked that show, I have heard of that show. I might like this show too. So it's really, it's helpful for us, it's helpful for the larger community. So thank you. Thank you.

[Jen]

Yeah, we'll see you next time.

[Jordan Grumman]

Bye.

[Jen]

Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni. Jill, are you excited for our very first book event?

[Jordan Grumman]

Yes, I am. I'm very excited. We don't quite know exactly what we're gonna say, but I imagine we're gonna talk about our favorite parts of the book, maybe even some behind the scenes stuff in the writing process. But I think chatting with everybody is going to be my favorite part. Hopefully the bookstore stays open late. And I'm also excited to see what I end up writing in people's books.

[Jen]

I know. I hope people come. I hope people show up and that is what I hope.

[Jordan Grumman]

You know what though, Jen? All along, regardless of what other people choose, we have each other.

[Jen]

We will at least be there, do.

[Jordan Grumman]

This podcast for ourselves and for each other because we keep having fun. So you know what? It's gonna be a party. Even if it's just you and I.

[Jen]

It will be a party. But we do this podcast also because we need to pay bills. And the only way we pay bills is if people download, like listen to.

[Jordan Grumman]

The show and buy the book.

[Jen]

Truly every download and every listen does help us pay our bills. And every book purchase, $25. That's it. And you help us keep doing this and keep having parties, even if they're just the two of us in a bookstore after close.

[Jordan Grumman]

So true.

[Jen]

And we don't even know who's going to be asking us the questions at the Q and A. We don't even know that yet.

[Jordan Grumman]

But I think we will. I really liked that when Jen Ruiz did that at her book signing.

[Jen]

So we'll find someone. Yeah, find someone interesting and it'll be a surprise. It probably won't be the surprise. We'll probably have announced it already. But right now it's a surprise.

[Jordan Grumman]

Yeah. Follow us on Instagram too. To get like an update on it. I'm sure we're posting.

[Jen]

I'm sure we posted it.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Already on Instagram. But Frugal Friends podcast.

[Jordan Grumman]

Yeah, fun. Bye.

[Jon Stewart]

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[Jason Alexander]

I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together our mission on the really Know really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions. Like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum a failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast or a limited edition sign. Jason Bobblehead the Really Noelie Podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Osvaldo Shin]

Do you want to see into the future? Do you want to understand an invisible force that's shaping your life? Do you want to experience the frontiers of what makes makes us human? On tech stuff we travel from the mines of Congo to the surface of Mars, from conversations with Nobel Prize winners to the depths of TikTok to ask burning questions about technology, from high tech to low culture and everywhere in between. Join us Listen to tech stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.