← Frugal Friends Podcast
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- [00:00]
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- [00:45]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [01:03]
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- [01:30]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [02:27]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Episode 491 How Marketers Use the Same Tactics as Cults with Dr. Mara Einstein.
- [02:38]
Jen
Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast where you'll learn to save money, embrace simplicity and live a richer life. Here are your hosts, Jen and Jill.
- [02:54]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. My name is Jen.
- [02:57]
Jill
My name is Jill and today we.
- [02:59]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Are bringing you an episode that we are so excited for. This is the most excited I have been about recording an episode in a very long time and I'm so excited for you to hear it.
- [03:10]
Jill
Whenever we have an opportunity to bring on a guest, particularly in kind of a unique niche, very interesting area, bringing a fresh perspective, but with knowledge and resources and tools that will actually really help us in making good spending decisions, then yeah, of course we're going to be super excited. And that's exactly what Dr. Mera is doing today. We've already recorded the interview, so we're now talking about the intro with the level of excitement that we know we should have because it's such a good conversation.
- [03:44]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yeah, and you might recognize her, you might already know her if you watch the documentary Buy now the Shopping Conspiracy on Netflix. It's a documentary about over consumption marketing and its impact on society and the planet. So if you haven't watched it, I highly recommend it, go check it out. But it does leave something to be desired at the end. In terms of what, honestly, it could have talked a lot more about the deceptive marketing, but also action steps on what, how to act upon what you're feeling now after watching it, which is what we always try to do on this show. But first, before we talk to Dr. Mera, this episode is brought to you by being upfront. In today's episode, we are going to talk about deceptive marketing and advertising and we're not going to shy away from the fact that this podcast that you are listening to right now is supported by advertising. We want to do our best to ensure the advertising is as relevant as possible. It is our goal in 2025 to curate that even more. But we want to continue to bring you our content for free. And because exposure does not pay the bills, we will continue to be supported by brand partnerships and advertising. But we want to ensure you that a we will do our best to make sure what we are talking about is most relevant to your needs and that we equip you with the tools necessary to discern if advertising and marketing is something, if the products and services are something you need or not, or want or not, what's best for you. And that's what we hope to do in this episode, is just give you another tool to discern. We don't think marketing is bad. We spent six months marketing our book buy what you love without going broke because we so strongly believe in it helping that it has the capacity to help people. So we don't think marketing is bad. We think deceptive marketing is bad. And we want you to have the tools to discern. And we also talk about it in our friend letter, frugalfriendspodcast.com you can sign up for our three times weekly newsletter where we give even more tips that is also free. And so that is another. We bring our YouTube videos, our podcasts, our newsletter with all of these things to help you. We want to. And we will always continue to bring them to you for free. That is something we stand by. We don't want to have to make you buy an online course or, or pay a subscription every month to get that stuff. And even if you can and would afford it, there are people who can't and we wanna continue to have that free for them. And this is how we do it. So thank you for paying for the show with your time and grace and listening.
- [06:54]
Jill
Yeah. And hopefully you feel more and more equipped to be able to navigate these very murky waters, to be able to make those good decisions for yourself. Because even if we believe in a brand or a that we personally talk about, it still doesn't mean that it's for everybody. And so you need to feel really confident about making those spending decisions that work for you. And this conversation with Dr. Mara is just one more thing that we can provide to be able to help you feel really confident in that.
- [07:23]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yeah. Beyond the Netflix documentary, by now, Dr. Mara Einstein is an internationally recognized expert on deceptive marketing tactics. She's the author of eight books, including her latest, how marketers use the same tactics as cults. And she's after working for a decade in corporate marketing, now she has a PhD and she's in academia talking about deceptive marketing. So you're going to love this interview. I'm so excited for you to hear it.
- [07:55]
Jill
Let's do it.
- [08:02]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Dr. Merrill, welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. We are excited to have you here.
- [08:07]
Jen
I'm so excited for this conversation. I can't wait to dig in.
- [08:11]
Jill
This is exactly up our alley. We talk about this topic a bit in the book, but you've got so much more expertise to bring to the table. So can we just dive right in with all of the juicy goodness that we want to explore today? What do you see as the parallels between the tactics of cults and some common marketing practices?
- [08:34]
Jen
When people talk People who work in marketing, they talk about something called the marketing funnel. And the way that the marketing funnel works is that at the top of the funnel, there's. It's very wide open, right? And that's where awareness happens. So it's like everyone in the world is out there. Marketers want to bring all of their, you know, their information to people, find out who will win, like their product. So they scream and yell about it as much as possible. So that's a very basic part of marketing, that's awareness. The second part is called consideration. So now you've heard about all of these products out in the world, and then you decide, this one's for me, this one's not for me. And so on the third step of the process is what's actually known as conversion. It's when you buy. When you buy something, you are known as a convert. And then the last part is loyalty. And loyalty we now call marketing evangelists. So within a social media space, what has made people not just loyalists, but marketing evangelists is the ability to be able to then talk about the product to thousands, if not millions of people, depending upon what the size of your following is. So cults do the exact same thing that marketers do. They want to grab people in the awareness phase, right? We're going to tell you who we are, but little catch here. They use a bit of deception, right? They don't tell you exactly who they are when they're bringing you into awareness. So a great example for this is ixcon, which used to be called the Hare Krishnas, right? They used to be on the corners in New York City with the orange robes and the ponytails and the whole thing. Now they don't look like that anymore. But what they do is they invite college students and others to have a free dinner. And who doesn't like a free dinner or a free meditation class or a free yoga class? And then they start to bring them into the group, right? This increases their awareness. It increases them knowing about, quote, unquote, knowing what this organization is about. And then they bring them into community. This is a key part of this. And this is what happens in terms of the considerations that step is what brands and cults do is create community around people. So this is something you, you. This is a good, like, bell thing for your listeners to think about. Is somebody trying to make me a part of a group before I know anything about them? Are they trying to tell me how wonderful I am before they know anything about me? And cults and brands both use this, because if what companies started to do in the early 2000s, right, as social media spaces started to grow, is they created brand communities. And these were around things like Nutella, of all things. And actually, Nutella happened because of the brand, not because of the company. You know, people who are fans of Nutella love Nutella, and they created World Nutella Day. It wasn't the brand, it was the fans that did it. And so if fans do it, that's cool. It's when brands start to do it and to start to get you to integrate with them and form a community. Because what forming a community does, whether it's a brand or it's a cult, makes it harder to leave. Because it's not about you leaving just this brand or this group. It's about leaving all the people you made connections with, and that becomes much harder to leave.
- [12:14]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yeah, I've seen this a lot in the body positivity movement, where it has shifted from, like, being okay with yourself and loving yourself in whatever shape or however you are, to being this marketing tactic where people say, like, oh, you're beautiful. You just need this, you know, one product that I have, this one skincare product. And then we create communities around skin care. And I see it even more so, like, this is just in general marketing, but even More so in MLMs, like, which are somehow making a resurgence. I am flabbergasted. But, yeah, you don't think about it until you hear, like, Dr. Mary, you saying, like, this stuff.
- [13:10]
Jen
Well, I talk a lot about MLMs in hoodwinked. I have just long sections. I spent two years researching MLMs and talking with people who are part of MLMs, who left MLMs, talking with regulators, talking with researchers. So I spent a lot of time digging into that. And one of the things that I did was I asked a cult expert and people who had been in mlms, if you were going to do a Venn diagram between an MLM and a cult, what would it look like? And they all said it would look like a circle, because they absolutely are the same thing. Because what happens is. Right, okay, so. So we're talking about the marketing funnel. So that's from the perspective of the marketer, but you're looking at it specifically in terms of cults. Let's parallel this. So the first step in the process is recruiting vulnerable people. And so if you're talking about a cult, one of the places they love to recruit people is college campuses in September, because you have a group of very young people who haven't established social Ties who, who are trying to find people to connect with. And so that's like talk about a rich space where you can find your target audience. That's really key for them. If you want to think about it in terms of consumers or I prefer to call us people. Don't talk about yourself as a consumer. That's probably the first thing to think about. And you'll notice in all of my books I try to avoid the word consumer as much as possible because if we think of ourselves as consumers, that's putting the idea into our head that that's who we are and it's not who we are.
- [14:57]
Jill
Yeah, the language around what you're describing is so important and eye opening to recognize that a lot of the language used within cults and marketing, even on the back end, is similar. Do you think in all of your research and studies and understanding of this that there is an under an awareness of this from a marketing perspective? Like how insidious do you think marketers.
- [15:26]
Jen
From the marketer's perspective or.
- [15:28]
Jill
Yeah, from people from the marketer's perspective, like are they aware? Like we are kind of functioning like we're taking the playbook from the cults?
- [15:34]
Jen
Yes. Because when I interviewed marketers, so just to give people a little bit of background. So I have an MBA and a PhD, so I expected to work in this business forever and I worked as a marketer for a decade and then I switched and became a critic. And so when I go to interview people who are in the industry, I say to them, I'm not doing this to attack you, I'm doing this to help to. I know I'm in this privileged position to be able to understand what you do on a day to day basis, but also to take a bird's eye view to see what is going on more globally in terms of a marketing perspective. And because of that they're willing to talk to me. So like I talked to corporate marketers from MLMs, we can talk about that later. They didn't talk on the record, but they did talk to me. But so when I interviewed them for Hoodwinked, I didn't tell them the subtitle of the book, which is how marketers use the same tactics as cults. Because I didn't want to frame the conversation, I wanted them to just tell me what their ideas were. And so then at the end of the interview I would tell them what the name of the book was. And they all went, yeah, yeah, that's exactly what we do. And for some it was yes, it's exactly what we do. And for some it was like, yeah, yeah, it is what we do.
- [17:04]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yikes. So some got it and some were like yikes.
- [17:09]
Jill
I guess so now that you say.
- [17:11]
Jen
It that way, wow.
- [17:13]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Wow.
- [17:14]
Jen
Because what's happening, right? So going back to this idea of getting people when they're vulnerable, I mean, advertising has done that since the beginning of time. That's not new. And so, you know, to, to your point, Jen, what you were talking about in terms of health and wellness, right. You're, you're not pretty enough, you're not fit enough, you're not thin enough. Right. Use our products. So this, you know, problem solution advertising has always been the most successful kind of advertising out there. And it plays on our psychology. And so what used to exist is this sort of propagandistic idea of advertising, which is you just throw the message out there, you say it over and over and over and over again and people will start to believe it. And this is what existed in the 1950s when mass media and mass marketing first began to come onto the scene. So what you had at that time was something called the unique selling proposition or the usp. And that's what companies would say over and over and over again. So melts in your mouth, not in your hand, Right. So that people would begin to believe it. But what happened in the 1960s and going into 70s and beyond, one what you had is the introduction of psychologists and psychiatrists into advertising and marketing so they could begin to think of the psychology of how to sell and understanding from a communication standpoint. Right. So I teach media studies and marketing and advertising from a communication standpoint. We also begin to understand that not everybody accepts the information is the same way as everybody else. They used to talk about it as the hypodermic needle of communication. You just take a big needle and you send all the information out into the marketplace and everybody's going to believe it. Well, nobody believes that and understands that that's the way the communication works anymore. What they do is try to figure out what your vulnerable and then find the ways to tap into your vulnerabilities and talk to those.
- [19:24]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yes. Okay, so can you give some examples of industries or brands how they will tap into those insecurities?
- [19:35]
Jen
Wow. How do they not?
- [19:40]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Maybe some of the ways people like wouldn't think about.
- [19:42]
Jen
But you're like, let me give you an extreme example. A good extreme example is for profit colleges. So the way that for profit. So nonprofit colleges are probably what people normally think of when they think of Colleges. Harvard is a nonprofit college, but we'll put that to the side for just a second. But when you're thinking of for profit colleges like University of Phoenix, like Trump University, these are specifically working to get people in the door because they want to take advantage of the federal loan system. They don't really care whether or not you get an education. They just want your money or the government's money. And then you have to pay the government back. So what they do is they look for what are known as your pain point. What is that thing that is going to hurt you so much that it's going to get you off your duff and actually pay for this? So it could be something like, you know, you want to do this for your kid. Right. You don't want your kid to go through what you went through. Right. You want to be able to have that job, you want to be able to make more money. Right. And so they push on all of those things until they get you to purchase the way that cults do this. For a previous book, I spent a couple of years researching the Kabbalah Center. What something like the Kabbalah center does is you take an introductory class with them. And part of the introductory class is you get a free session with the teacher. Well, it's not really a free session. So you think you're going in there all night and oh, great, I get a session with the teacher. This is cool. No, it's the hardest sales pitch you have ever seen in your entire life. And it's you and the teacher. So you want to talk about a power position. That person's got power over you, they have information over you, and then they try to sell you on all of the things that, that they have. Most people. And the worst thing that they do, and a lot of cults do this, is if you really cared, if you really cared about your sense of spirituality, you would find a way to pay for this. Put it on your credit card, borrow it from your parents, you know, do whatever it is you need to do, but you need to find a way to pay this money. And it's like. And if you're in enough pain, right. Remember going back to vulnerability, if you're in enough pain, you will do it. Because you think what this person is selling is going to eliminate that pain for you.
- [22:16]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yeah. And you don't even have to be in pain when you walk in the door. They'll create it for you. Like, I think of timeshares. I mean, if you really care about your family and their vacations, you'll do this. It'll force you to take a vacation every year and. Yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh, yeah.
- [22:35]
Jen
Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
- [22:36]
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- [23:04]
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- [24:38]
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- [25:05]
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- [25:12]
Jen
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- [26:06]
Jill
So I'm curious to hear from you. You've described a little bit of the vulnerability and kind of how that draws us into maybe making purchases that we otherwise wouldn't have or beginning to belong to a cult. And I think so many of us, you know, we can watch some of these documentaries and imagine, oh, but I would never. And yet, as you're describing, we are susceptible to these same strategies within marketing and our purchasing and consumption. Why do you think we're so unaware of this? How is it so clouded from our sight that we are just engaging in this and we don't even know?
- [26:47]
Jen
Yeah. What's interesting to me is, and what's hard for me in the work that I do is that everybody thinks they understand marketing. Right? Everybody thinks they know how it all works. But if they begin to, for instance, follow me on TikTok, they're like, oh, I didn't know about that. Geofencing. What's geofencing? Right. So all of these things that are going on that they don't understand and as you begin to pull the threads, then people, people start opening up their eyes. There's also something known as the third person effect. And the third person effect is this idea that, oh, advertising and marketing affects everybody else, but it doesn't impact me, but it does. And so to be aware and to get to the other part of your question, you know, the issue with it right now is that we are engaging with the vast majority of our advertising on social media. Not just on social media, but on our phone. And the technology is designed in such a way to keep, one, to keep us connected for as long as possible, and two, to make us as anxious as possible. And that anxiety creates vulnerability, right? It all becomes part of this circle. And so in terms of the technology, one of the things is that there's no stopping point, right? It's an endless scroll so that you, you know, if you watch a movie, you stop watching a movie, it's done, you walk away and it's over. But there is no set point. So that's why you find yourself, if you're on social media spaces, just endlessly scrolling, because the longer that you say, stay on those spaces, the more likely you will engage with advertising. And the hope is that you will ultimately buy something. Now, remember, going back to the funnel, the whole idea of the funnel is, is that you will go through this whole process. Now, in traditional media, it would take a lot of time to get from the awareness part of the funnel to the marketing evangelist part of it. You had to, you know, maybe you saw a commercial or you saw a billboard or you saw a print ad, and this was happening over time. And then you said, okay, you know what? I want this product. And so you get in your car or you walk down to your town, and then you go buy it, and then you look at it and then you kind of go, you know what? Maybe I don't want to spend $150 on a pair of shoes. Maybe I really don't. The problem with the online space is that the funnel has been collapsed. So there's no time between the awareness phase and the purchase phase. There's almost no time from that to then tell people to go tell everybody else.
- [29:33]
Jill
One of the things we've talked about on the podcast and even in my own mental health background, is that vulnerability without protection leads to exploitation. And I think this is what I'm hearing you describe here. And it's making me wonder if people exit cults, those who are kind of lucky enough to find themselves on the other side of it and begin a healing process. That's exactly what needs to happen, is a healing process. And there is emotional Relational psychological impact. Would you say the same then for marketing? Like what is the exploitation that's happening? What is some of the emotional psychological impact of these marketing tactics that mimic cults?
- [30:19]
Jen
One of the things I talk about is that economists say that we're living in an attention economy, meaning that marketers want our attention for as long a period of time as possible so that we'll engage with the advertising. What I'm suggesting is that we live in an anxiety economy because it's not just enough to get our eyeballs and they want to ramp up our emotions. And so you can see this in social media spaces where the incentives for influencers is to ramp up our emotion, is to be enraged, is to do this sort of rage farming so that we get upset and then we share their content. And so that creates this cycle of anxiety. Doom scrolling anxiety purchase. Right? Because anxiety needs release. It needs to be released. And again the technology is created and it's all about the dopamine hit. And you talk about this, right? It's all about the dopamine hit. So how do you get away from the need, from the dopamine hit? One, you gotta start putting your phone down. Find reasons not to walk around with your phone and certainly with what's going on in our country right now, even more reasons not to walk around with your phone. Turn off your location, don't let people know where you are unless you need it really for safety purposes. There's no reason for you to walk around with your phone 24 7. I know it's hard for people to give up social media, take a one day break, take a two day break, say for the weekend. I'm not going to go on social media for the weekend. And for no other reason, it will shift you and it will enable you to be, to see, oh, I don't need this stuff. I mean, I'm sort of going through this right now because of what happened with the TikTok ban. So that's where I have my biggest following. And I also had a bit of a following on Instagram and Threads. But after what Zuckerberg did, I said, you know what, I can't be on those spaces anymore. So I've deactivated all my meta accounts and it's been an adjustment. But I'm also finding out that I don't need to be on as much as I was. I'm also thinking about, you know, I'm old enough to remember where we engaged with news twice a day. You got up in the morning, you had your Newspaper was delivered to your house, you read the newspaper, you went about your day, you lived your life and you came home at night and you either watched the, the 6:30 news or the 11:00 news and that was it. You don't need to know what's going on in the world 24 hours a day. Nobody does. And it's just not good for you. And it's not for you. What I always say to people is if you are thinking of this thing as anything other than a shopping mall, you're thinking about it the wrong way. The guy who created OkCupid said this is a 24, 7 marketing research piece of equipment and everybody should understand that. And not everybody does understand this. And that was eight years ago. And I think more people have a better idea that their data is being collected and so on, but I don't think people have a full extent of how it is being used against them.
- [34:02]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yep, I like, I can't say anything more than that. That is. Yeah, exactly. So aside from not walking away, like not walking around with your phone or just like putting the phone down more, what other advice would you give people to protect themselves from these tactics to, to protect their vulnerability?
- [34:27]
Jen
There's no way for the FTC to be able to find out if somebody actually is sponsored or not sponsored. So just sort of assume, just go from the assumption that if somebody looks like they're trying to sell you something, they're probably getting paid for it. There's also because we, because we know that we approach advertising with a very different mindset than we do so called editorial content. If somebody's not being paid to say to sell something and it's an influencer that we know, then we come at it with a more relaxed attitude. But the second we see hashtag sponsored then we go, oh, okay, somebody's trying to sell me something. And you pay much more attention to it. Assume, just go in assuming that somebody has an agenda and somebody's trying to sell you something. If they're hold, if they're holding anything in their hand, just assume they're getting paid to do it. Because part of the problem is too is with the more the smaller influencers, you know, mean, you know, the nano influencers who have like 5 to 10,000 followers. A lot of them don't get paid. A lot of them are paid what they call in kind, meaning they are given the product to test and then promote. That is still considered by the FTC to be paid. But a lot of those nano influencers don't Know that. So particularly if you're following somebody that you have come to appreciate, just assume that they're getting paid, and so enter into that conversation with that attitude. I would also say not all influencers are bad people. There's some that legitimately have. Want to provide information, and there's some that are just out there to, you know, rack up their numbers as quickly as possible. And it's been really interesting to see, you know, since TikTok has come back up, that, you know, some of the rage stuff is really off, really off the charts. And I've had to put it down and put it away and block people. You know, you're. The block button is your friend. And so if there's people that are, you know, block it, get rid of it, don't engage with it. And also just, you know, particularly now, get involved with your local community. Know who your neighbors are, interact with your neighbors. Can you help with them? I belong to my local civic association, and, you know, I've gotten to meet wonderful people who are in their 80s and who have lived in my neighborhood for years and know the history and the stories and all. And, you know, one woman was. Came from Germany, she's about to turn 90. The Nazis stole her doll and she stole it back from him, and she lived to tell the tale. Right, right, right. So you don't. You don't find that out by being on social media. You find that out by. By going to talk to your neighbors.
- [37:37]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yeah. Okay. There is one question I'd like to kind of get is, so you were in the Buy now documentary. Is there anything that they did not use that you said that you wish they would have?
- [37:52]
Jen
Oh, gosh, yes. There was a whole second day of shooting that didn't make it into the documentary. And if you notice on the documentary, they chironed me as a former marketing executive, and I think that was because of how they were framing the film as everybody being ex marketing executives, which is true. But they never talk about me being a professor and a marketing critic. So the entire second day was me giving a lecture about greenwashing and how this whole idea of greenwashing and pink washing and so on, the idea of what I call talk about as purpose washing. And that is when companies connect a brand to a cause. And the reason why companies want to do this, particularly for millennials and Gen Z, is because there have been some of the other larger institutions in our society don't have the same impact on us in terms of identity creation as they used to. Things like Our religion, things like our jobs, things like our family. And so what happened in the 1990s and into the 2000s is that the market and brands came in to fill that void. So we're Starbucks or we're Dunkin. Right? Right. So those become identifiers for who we are. And if we're going to make these brands part of our identity, what people said to companies was, well, you better tell me what your values are. If I'm really going to connect with you, you better tell me what your values are. And so a lot of companies began connecting their products to causes. And it could be anything from pink ribbons to greenwashing to Save the animals to the red campaign that Bana was behind. And most of these, quite frankly, are bs. They don't live up to the values that they present, and there's very few that do. What's been interesting to me to see is how many people are talking about Ben and Jerry's right now. And that's one company that really does live up to the values that they talk about, because they've been doing it one. They've been doing it long. So this is what you want to look for to find out whether a company really cares about the cause they are connecting themselves to. Have they been doing it for a long time? Did they do it for a year and then move on? Then? No, forget about it. Is it something that just increases their sales, or are they actually doing something that's going to make a difference? So what I always talk about when I talk about purpose is the difference between purpose and impact. Purpose is a nice name. Impact is making a difference. And so again, Ben and Jerry's becomes a great example for something like that. Mac Cosmetics. Right. They have the lipstick that comes out once a year and all of the money, not the profits. Right. Look and see if they're saying profits. They're saying profits. Are they saying all of it? All of the money from that lipstick goes for AIDS and hiv, either education or assistance for people who suffer with that. So what you see with a lot of companies, though, is that they say something like, breast cancer is a great example. The pink ribbon is not trademarked. So a company can just slap that pink ribbon onto a product and say, oh, I support breast cancer. And there could be absolutely nothing behind it. Nothing.
- [41:41]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yeah, I feel the same thing in June where everything goes rainbow. Like the flag is not trademarked and everybody uses it.
- [41:49]
Jen
It's a great example, man.
- [41:52]
Jill
You are giving us such tangible tips on how to protect ourselves as well as just Awareness items where we can feel a little bit more equipped to make. We're still going to be buying, we're still going to be spending money and there's still going to be products that might actually help to solve a real problem or create a more efficient lifestyle. But to be sure that we are making those decisions and not manipulated into making those decisions.
- [42:19]
Jen
There's nothing wrong with buying. If you need something, buy something. The issue is over consuming and over consuming. Look, if you want to be radical, you know, stop buying stuff you don't need. That is one of the most radical things you can do. Because what it does is it makes it so you don't have to be working all the the time to pay off all of that debt. Which is just crazy because what we have done, what Silicon Valley has done beyond everything else, and I have all kinds of issues with them, is valorize the idea of a side hustle and the gig economy and the fact that everybody can be an entrepreneur. No, you know what? A lot of people would like to go in, work a 9 to 5 and be able to make a salary with that one paycheck and be able to put a roof over their heads, pay for their meals and be able to send their kids to college. But we got sucker punched over the last 20 years by a bunch of adolescent white dudes in the West Coast. And I'll stop there before I say something.
- [43:25]
Dr. Mara Einstein
It stems back to the 2 income trap by Elizabeth Warren. And that would be a whole nother episode that we do not have time for. But basically when we went to two incomes, it didn't help us, it didn't help women as much. It just made everything more expensive and we consume more products. So now we need more money to consume more products and to afford bigger houses. That's what it really did.
- [43:51]
Jen
Right?
- [43:52]
Dr. Mara Einstein
It was under the guise though of equality.
- [43:54]
Jen
Right. And the idea that anybody could be an influencer and that people could make money from this. There are 50 million influencers around and only 2 million of them make any kind of a living at it. So the odds are not in your favor.
- [44:14]
Jill
Do you know what is in our favor and is not a trap and we do believe brings about just such joy.
- [44:21]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Everybody benefits from it.
- [44:23]
Jill
The bill of the week.
- [44:35]
Jen
That's right.
- [44:36]
Ryan Seacrest
It's time for the best minute of your entire week.
- [44:40]
Jen
Maybe a baby was born and his name is William.
- [44:43]
Ryan Seacrest
Maybe you paid off your mortgage, maybe.
- [44:45]
Jen
Your car died and you're happy to.
- [44:47]
Ryan Seacrest
Not have to pay that bill anymore. Duck Bills, Buffalo Bills, Bill Clinton. This is the bill of the week.
- [44:57]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Dr. Mara, every week we yell at our listeners and our guests because we are so excited to hear their bills. And we are just as excited to hear your bill this week.
- [45:13]
Jen
I had to think about this. I really struggled with this. But when I finally got to it, I don't know if people are going to know who he is or not. Do you know who Bill Fagerbaki is?
- [45:25]
Dr. Mara Einstein
No.
- [45:26]
Jill
Sure.
- [45:26]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Don't tell me.
- [45:27]
Jen
Yes, you do. Bill Fagerbaki is the voice of Patrick Starr on SpongeBob SquarePants. And I was many, many, many, many, many years ago. I used to be a commercial talent agent and Bill Fagerbaki was one of our clients. And he is. He's huge. He's like six, six really tall, blocking. He also used to be on the show coach, and he acts like he's. He's not dumb at all. He's really smart. He's just the nicest guy. Truly, truly just the nicest guy. And so when I thought of Bill, I was like, oh, God, Bill Fagerbach. Yeah.
- [46:08]
Jill
That's amazing. That's a new one. We've never had this, but I am a spongebob fan and this is very exciting.
- [46:16]
Jen
So now you have to go. Now you have to go look him up and see what he looks like.
- [46:18]
Jill
Exact. Oh, how Wonderful. Thank you, Dr. Mara, for sharing that incredibly enlightening, very fun bill. If you all listening, have a bill that you want to share. If it's about the voice of a beloved cartoon character or just your name is Bill and you are beloved or anything else Bill related, you know. You know What? We love frugalfriendspodcast.com Bill. Leave it for us. We can't wait to hear it.
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Ryan Seacrest
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- [48:21]
AutoZone Representative
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- [48:27]
Jen
Yeah, I need to change my oil. I want to get a full synthetic oil.
- [48:30]
AutoZone Representative
How about Pennzoil Platinum? It's the only oil made from natural gas.
- [48:34]
Jill
Sounds great. How much for an oil filter?
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AutoZone Representative
Oh, that's free.
- [48:37]
Jen
What?
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AutoZone Representative
The filter is free with the oil.
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Jill
Free.
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AutoZone Representative
Really, really free. It's just part of our A to Free. I mean A to Z savings event at AutoZone. Get in the zone AutoZone restrictions apply.
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- [49:49]
Jill
Nyx.Com and now it's time for the Lightning Round.
- [49:58]
Dr. Mara Einstein
All right, so for this week's Lightning Round question, can you recall a recent ad or marketing tactic that felt cult like to you?
- [50:11]
Jen
The one I've been talking about and I've actually been talking about for three years, but it's back is he gets us the he gets us campaign.
- [50:19]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Oh my gosh.
- [50:23]
Jen
Do you know? Do you know? Yes, I know.
- [50:26]
Jill
I'm wondering who's putting this out. Who's Big Jesus out here putting out ads.
- [50:32]
Jen
You know who's behind it? The Koch brothers. The Koch brothers. The Republican Party. Yes.
- [50:37]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Well, okay, I get that.
- [50:39]
Jen
Yeah. If people want to see. I've done a ton of tiktoks on this. But the short version of it is that it is put out by a consortium of conservatives. There is an organization called Barna Research, which is a conservative research organization which is connected to another company called Glue. G L O O go check out Glue. It's a data marketing firm for conservative Christians and very tied to the Republican Party. They are funded by the Koch brothers. Also, the guy behind Hobby Lobby also gave a lot of money to this.
- [51:17]
Dr. Mara Einstein
So I did hear that one. I did hear that Hobby Lobby was partially behind it.
- [51:21]
Jill
Okay. Yeah.
- [51:22]
Jen
So this was a three year. So wait for it at the Super Bowl. You can be sure it's gonna be part of the Super Bowl. It was a three year campaign. I think a billion dollars. You will see it shown during all the Super Bowls and all of the major sporting events. It's also connected to the Alpha course. If people know the Alpha course.
- [51:42]
Jill
Whoa. That's something that I haven't and maybe I just wasn't paying enough attention to it. Where are they even trying to use a marketing term and a cult term funnel people to. It didn't seem to be connected to any particular church. Do you have an idea of what they're hoping the takeaway or action item is after seeing this ad?
- [52:07]
Jen
And the Barna organization is a marketing company that works with churches. And so the hope is that these tools that are being created by Alpha are then used by these churches and then these churches use them as a way to bring people into their spaces. I took one of the classes that Barna gave in association with. With this campaign. I've been in a lot of evangelical rooms, but that one was particularly uncomfortable. I have.
- [52:44]
Dr. Mara Einstein
That's so sad. Cause I'm usually. I mean, at least I used to be impressed by Barna's like research. It seemed to be more neutral than others.
- [52:56]
Jen
Yeah. But they're now fully connected to Glue, which may be the documentary I would really recommend to people if they wanted understand the connections between Republicans, churches, marketing data, all of that sort of stuff. There's a documentary called People youe May Know People youe May Know and, and the guy who did it was one of the people who testified in front of the UK Parliament about Cambridge Analytica. And so he gets into talking to people about how the data related to that's being gobbled up by these companies are then being funneled to churches. Now why a 200 member church has the Republican Party name list attached to it, I'll never know. But go watch the documentary. I highly recommend it. Yeah.
- [53:54]
Jill
Interesting.
- [53:55]
Dr. Mara Einstein
It is so interesting. It brings up the, the fact that so many institutions that we may have once trusted and felt like we've known have been bought up, like not just in the religious space, but like in the, you know, capitalism space, have been bought up by private equity or other places and are different than what we remember or have gained trust in, in our youth.
- [54:20]
Jen
Right.
- [54:21]
Dr. Mara Einstein
And so they think that's another way that we can fall victim to some deceptive marketing.
- [54:27]
Jen
One of the things I really want to leave people with in terms of what's going on right now is the difference between media, like when I was growing up is yes, there were five companies that basically controlled the media landscape, but they weren't controlling what I was seeing on a day to day basis. And I was seeing the same thing that my neighbor was seeing so we could have a conversation about it. That's not what's going on now. We're all in our individual space and we aren't necessarily seeing the same thing. The other thing is it's the ability of someone like Mark Zuckerberg to control what is going on in that platform is at a level that none of us can understand. And even from the time when I would talk to people who worked in advertising spaces and algorithms, they don't understand it. The people who work in it don't understand it. And so, and if anybody tells you they do, they don't, they're lying. And particularly now with AI. So the best way that you can protect yourself is if you don't need to be on those spaces, deactivate them. You don't have to delete, but deactivate. Because one of the things that we're seeing a lot, for instance now, and this I think helps explain this pretty well, is now that you know who is president, you may be following him on Facebook whether you followed him or not, because the company can decide who gets to follow who. So that's at a level of deceptiveness, I will call it, that we have never seen before. And because he owns the company, there's no way to stop him. So I would say to you, those spaces are no longer safe if you want to connect with your groups. And there's. There's a group that's protecting your cat or there's your local quilting group or whatever, go on. But also make sure you log out every time. Log out every time, off of every space. Because it's not just that they're able to track you on the site. Any website that has the Facebook icon on it can also be used to track you.
- [56:37]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Didn't they learn from when everyone got mad, they put the YouTube album on everybody's iPhone. Did they not learn from that? We don't like that.
- [56:47]
Jill
The. The ipod, wasn't it?
- [56:49]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Oh, ipod.
- [56:49]
Jill
You would open up the ipod and it automatically had YouTube's album downloaded.
- [56:54]
Jen
Yeah.
- [56:54]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Some people will never learn.
- [56:56]
Jill
Yeah. What about for you, Jen?
- [56:58]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Okay, so for me, it was for paper towels, and I can't remember which one, if it was brawny or something like that, but they were saying that it is more hygienic to use paper towels than rags. So you need to buy our paper.
- [57:15]
Jill
Towels if you want to care for your family.
- [57:18]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Right. If you want to protect your family, essentially, you need to use paper towels and not rags. And then I'm there, I'm sitting there thinking, like, I'm not a doctor's office. Like, I'm not a hospital. I can be clean without being sterile. But they're believing. They're making people believe that they need to be sterile. Playing off that.
- [57:36]
Jill
That fear we have in this, like, post Covid era.
- [57:39]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Like, yeah, and I thought that was so sick. Like, no pun intended.
- [57:44]
Jen
Well, if it's Bron, if it's brawny, it's owned by the Koch brothers, too. So that's another reason to avoid that. Wow.
- [57:52]
Dr. Mara Einstein
What isn't?
- [57:54]
Jill
My husband and I recently, over the holidays, watched the Barbie movie, and that was an entire ad for many things, including Chevrolet. I'm just like, we're just watching an entertaining Chevrolet ad, but also trying to get us to be a certain type of person.
- [58:16]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yeah, Barbie movie was an interesting time. Like, it was in every commercial and was a large commercial itself. But it was such a good movie. But she really liked it.
- [58:27]
Jill
I was gobbi smacked that nobody was talking about how much of an ad for Chevrolet. It was. Like, all of the conversation about it, that was not part of it.
- [58:37]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Okay, but this was also 18 months ago. Yeah, 18 months ago they did talk about that.
- [58:41]
Jill
I don't remember it then either, but I don't know. They were just all talking About Ryan Gosling's role and Ken, he was kenuff.
- [58:51]
Jen
Yes.
- [58:52]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Oh, Dr. Mera, thank you so much. And I know that we could talk more, but where can people find your book Hoodwinked and more from you?
- [59:07]
Jen
So Hoodwinked is available wherever books are sold and the full title is How Marketers Use the Same Tactics as Cults. Because there's another book called Hoodwinked that came out a year ago, so don't be. But can I show it's.
- [59:24]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yes.
- [59:25]
Jen
It's a very, very obvious kind of picture, you know, so very red, very black.
- [59:31]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yes.
- [59:32]
Jen
And you can find me because my socials are so in flux right now. My website is dramarainstein.com that's D R M A R-A E I N S T E I N DOT com. I am Dr. Mara Einstein on all socials. If you do go look for me. And to answer the question that everybody wants to know, yes, I am related to that guy.
- [59:56]
Jill
That's amazing. I know we didn't even make that into the questions, but do you want to expound.
- [60:03]
Jen
It's distant. It's distant and it's through marriage, but my daughter got the blood, so. Yeah.
- [60:08]
Jill
Okay, perfect.
- [60:11]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Still counts. Yes, it still counts.
- [60:13]
Jill
It lives on. Thanks so much for being here, Dr. Mera.
- [60:16]
Jen
Thank you so much. This was great.
- [60:21]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yeah, I. So I kept thinking about our friend Amanda Montel. Her book Cultish. She doesn't dive very deeply into consumerism, but she does end the book by saying she makes a very strong stance that the cult of our time is consumerism. Whereas in the 70s it was all the hippie cults and religious cults, and still we do have some of those today. But the really big cult that most of us are going to struggle with is consumerism. It's brand loyalty, all the things that Dr. Marrow was talking about and her book, I highly recommend it. Cultish is all about the language of culture and hearing Dr. Maris say all these words, thinking, yes, this is cult language that marketers are using, have been using, and are going to continue to use.
- [61:24]
Jill
I'm really encouraged by this conversation and just my takeaways of the protective measures that we can put in place. I think so often when it comes to these really lofty ideas of. Of things that are outside of our control and yet so oppressive to us on a day to day basis, it can feel really deflating and overwhelming. But I think what I'm hearing from Dr. Mehra, and even in our conversations, Jen, that there are things that we can be doing that lighten the load for us that make us feel more equipped for these decisions that we're making. We don't have to just say, man, isn't it all just going to crap. We can say, I get to choose how much I engage with this marketing by how often I'm looking at my phone. I get to put the parameters around that. I get to choose what I buy, where my dollars go, how I am making these decisions. And little by little, the more of us that can do that, the more power in those numbers it is. But also, even if nobody else made the same decisions that we did, we still have within our control the ability find some degree of peace and calm and clarity and confidence even in the midst of the mess with how much we choose to engage in this and how equipped we can become. I think once you see it, you can't unsee it, you know, to kind of realize anything I'm looking at, I can look at through a marketing lens of what are they trying to sell me, how are they trying to attach it to my identity? And that makes the nose even easier if it's not something for me.
- [63:04]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yeah, absolutely.
- [63:06]
Jill
Well, thank you all so much for listening. We trust that this was a helpful conversation and if you agree, we would love for you to leave us a kind review like this one. Here's an example comes from Jackie Johnson Donner happens to be five stars and they say buckle up. It's a long one. I had the opportunity to read an advanced copy. Oh no, they reviewed our book.
- [63:30]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Actually, all of our reviews going for.
- [63:33]
Jill
The book are for the book. So yeah, feel free to review our podcast. Definitely. But also if you've read the book, leave us a review of that. Because we also talk about marketing tactics and how we can equip ourselves to make good spending decisions in the book. So here's an example. I had the opportunity to read an advanced copy of this book and it has already been incredibly eye opening and personally beneficial. Unlike traditional personal finance books that focus solely on saving more and spending less, this one takes a refreshing approach. The authors focus on aligning your spending with personal core values. The concept of determining what your values are, what you want to spend your money on, and planning to spend your money on the things that matter seems to seem so simple, but yet it's so impactful. When I appreciate most. What I appreciate most is their non judgmental tone. Jen and Jill walk you through the process step by step to reflect on where you spend money on and get you thinking about what you want to spend money on. Notice I didn't say that you should spend money on because there's no shaming or prescriptive advice here. It's filled with financial empowerment and I've noticed a substantial improvement by following advice from the book. Under the financial mentorship of Jen and Jill, I have reduced our spending by 20% this month. Their personal stories are so relatable and illustrate their lessons with honesty, curiosity and intention. If you are searching for a practical, thoughtful way to improve your finances without feeling overwhelmed and guilty, this is a must read. Be sure to also also check out Frugal Friends podcast too. It's filled with fun and insight.
- [65:08]
Jen
Wow.
- [65:09]
Jill
Jackie Johnson Donner. Thank you.
- [65:11]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yes, thank you so much, Jackie. We've enjoyed making the show for almost seven years at this point and we enjoyed writing this book so much to help people discern marketing and their own impulses and make better spending decisions, not just. Just the decision to not spend money because that's not sustainable. So if you have read the book, please leave us a review on Amazon or wherever you purchased it. If you have not, head to buy what you love book.com and get yourself a copy.
- [65:44]
Jill
Thank you and see you next time.
- [65:47]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni.
- [66:01]
Jill
Okay, Jen, the other day I was scrolling on my phone and I kid you not, every single post, it had to have been 20, 25 posts in a row. Every single one was an ad. Like a very blatant ad where it wasn't even just some influencer trying to sell me something, which is still an ad, but just, just. I'm like, this is even. This isn't even fun anymore. It was very easy to then just like put my phone down and be like, all right, I'm doing something else because this is just ridiculous.
- [66:33]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yeah, no, I've noticed they've been putting more ads in a row. It is so social media is a blessing and a curse, right? Because it has such helpful, fantastic, short form content and it is lovely. We love memes. But it is also full of advertising. And so so much of the solution centers around getting off your phone. But I think there is a lot to be said about conscious consumption of social media. So that's my two cents.
- [67:13]
Jill
What is the first ad? As you scroll, I'm opening up my phone. Mine is for a bank. I'm not even gonna mention the bank because they don' Deserve airtime, right?
- [67:21]
Dr. Mara Einstein
No.
- [67:21]
Jill
Unless they pay me.
- [67:22]
Dr. Mara Einstein
And again, we can bring this to you for free because we get paid by certain brands.
- [67:28]
Jill
Okay. A bank, insurance. You know what's laughable to me is when I get ads for something after I've made a purchase.
- [67:39]
Dr. Mara Einstein
I'm seeing the run. Rundisney just announced the.
- [67:43]
Jill
Oh, no. An ad that's working on her. Oh, no. I shouldn't have had you do this.
- [67:48]
Dr. Mara Einstein
It's native content. I knew they were making announcement for the wine and dine theme. I knew it. It was just the first thing that popped up. That's not even an ad.
- [67:55]
Jen
But the next one is an ad.
- [67:57]
Dr. Mara Einstein
For Walt Disney World.
- [67:58]
Jill
For Walt Disney World. Oh, wow. That is the second thing you want.
- [68:03]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Oh. Then the third is a Frugal Friends podcast post. It is a post of our latest episode that just came out. So now I know what that episode is because we record a month in advance and I have totally forgot. So. Yeah, it's great. I. And then Legoland Florida is the next one. Cause we used to have. Oh. And then a brand that I was doing research on to see if they would want to sponsor the show. See, that's really fun because some of my sponsors are so off the wall because I'm doing brand research and I'm definitely not. I mean, then I can see kind of what they do, what they're doing. Yeah, I can scope it out early.
- [68:42]
Jill
Yeah.
- [68:43]
Jen
Yeah.
- [68:43]
Jill
So it is interesting. Yeah. How curated it is to have like, it's a high yield savings account. Like a bank that offers a high yield savings account insurance, a mental health ad. I mean, I'm not.
- [68:57]
Dr. Mara Einstein
I got a TV show.
- [68:58]
Jill
I'm mad about these.
- [69:00]
Dr. Mara Einstein
I got Universal Studios. They know I love Orlando.
- [69:05]
Jill
That is an investing app.
- [69:08]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yeah.
- [69:10]
Jill
Tell me you work in finance without telling me you work in finance.
- [69:14]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Yeah.
- [69:15]
Jill
So, okay.
- [69:17]
Dr. Mara Einstein
It's, you know, a lot of different things, but I think my biggest thing is I want to stop scrolling so much. I want to be less of a consumer and more of a creator. I think that is my goal because I believe in social media. I believe in its power. And I also know that it is a cesspool as well. So there's confliction within me.
- [69:47]
Jill
But you know what? We need to hold the tension. We can't only allow social media to be TEMU halls.
- [69:54]
Dr. Mara Einstein
Right, Exactly.
- [69:55]
Jill
We also need to be able to talk about what we're talking about.
- [69:59]
Dr. Mara Einstein
I need to be the change I want to see in the world.
- [70:01]
Jen
Exactly.
- [70:02]
Dr. Mara Einstein
And so should you. Not you, Jill, the person listening to this.
- [70:07]
Jill
I'll be the change. I'll change.
- [70:09]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's stock Up Savings time now through March 25th spring in for storewide deals and earn four times a point. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible cleaning items from all and Cottonelle and dinner essentials from Daisy, Skippy, Hellman's and Barilla plus many more. Then clip the offer in our app for automatic event long savings stack up those rewards to save even more restrictions applied. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.
- [70:36]
AutoZone Representative
Get in the zone AutoZone welcome to the A to Z Savings Event at AutoZone. What are you working on today?
- [70:42]
Jen
Yeah, I need to change my oil. I want to get a full synthetic oil.
- [70:45]
AutoZone Representative
How about Pennzoil Platinum? It's the only oil made from natural gas.
- [70:49]
Jill
Sounds great. How much for an oil filter?
- [70:51]
AutoZone Representative
Oh, that's free.
- [70:52]
Jen
What?
- [70:52]
AutoZone Representative
The filter is free with the oil.
- [70:54]
Jill
Free.
- [70:55]
AutoZone Representative
Really really free. It just part of our A to free. I mean A to Z savings event at AutoZone. Get in the zone AutoZone restrictions apply.
- [71:06]
Ryan Seacrest
The Unshakeables podcast is kicking off season two with an episode you won't want to miss. Join host Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business as he welcomes a very special guest, Chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase, Jamie Dimon. Hear about the challenges facing small businesses and some of the oh moments Jamie has overcome. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Chase Mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply JP Morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 JP Morgan Chase & Co. Do you own a business that's ready to thrive? It's time to let Intuit QuickBooks take things like unpaid invoices and tracking expenses off your plate plate so you can take things to the next level. Intuit QuickBooks is an all in one business platform that can help with those day to day tasks like invoicing and expenses. Manage and grow your business all in one place. Intuit QuickBooks your way to Money Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments, Inc. Licensed as a money Transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services.