← Frugal Friends Podcast
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- [00:00]
Host 1
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:05]
Advertiser 1
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- [01:11]
Advertiser 2
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Host 1
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Advertiser 2
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- [01:39]
Tom Brokaw
Apple card.com the NBC Nightly News legacy.
- [01:42]
Lester Holt
Isn'T handed down or NBC News.
- [01:44]
Tom Brokaw
I'm Tom Brokaw.
- [01:45]
Host 1
Hope to see you back here.
- [01:46]
Tom Yamas
I'm Lester Holt.
- [01:47]
Lester Holt
It's carried forward.
- [01:48]
Tom Yamas
Tom Yamaz is there for us.
- [01:50]
Lester Holt
Firefighters are still working around the clock. As the world changes, we look for what endures. We are coming on the air with breaking news right now. We look for a constant and from one era to the next. Trust is the anchor for NBC Nightly News. I'm Tom Yamas. A new chapter begins NBC Nightly News with Tom yamas evenings on NBC.
- [02:10]
Tom Yamas
Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide and and every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn more@discover.com credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report.
- [02:39]
Jen
Getting off the hot girl Hamster Wheel with Katie Gotti Tassen.
- [02:46]
Tom Brokaw
Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast where.
- [02:49]
Tom Yamas
You'Ll learn to save money, embrace simplicity and live a richer life.
- [02:56]
Host 1
Here are your host, Jen and Jill.
- [03:00]
Jen
Welcome to Frugal Friends. My name is Jen.
- [03:02]
Host 1
My name is Jill.
- [03:03]
Jen
And today we are talking with money with Katie Katie Gotti Tassen about getting off the hot girl hamster wheel.
- [03:12]
Host 1
In this episode you will learn about the industries that profit from our insecurities, how to navigate negotiations as a female, and how to do a hot girl detox with your budget.
- [03:24]
Jen
But first, this episode is brought to you by our annual finance planner. We released a budget a few months ago and saw that it was going to be way too big if we included all of the tabs we wanted to include. So we made a separate finance planner for your whole year. So planning out the activities you want to do with your family, the activities you want to do with self care, your travel, your travel rewards, credit cards, all of their benefits, just planning all of the things for your finances in one spreadsheet with like 20 different tabs. So if you want to check out all the tabs that are available, frugalfriendspodcast.com planner and it could be really beneficial to you. I know it has been for me even, maybe even more than the budget because I use an app. But some people love their spreadsheets and.
- [04:20]
Host 1
This will be especially helpful for you after you listen to our conversation with Katie.
- [04:25]
Jen
So for those of you who don't know Katie, she is the voice of money with Katie and she's the author of Rich Girl Nation. Her work focuses on the intersection where our economic, political and cultural context meets the practical money advice that everyone needs to thrive. And that's a long winded way to say she has a really cool podcast. I really like following her on social media and I really like listening to her long form podcast content and I don't listen to a lot of podcasts. I know that might sound hypocritical, but I don't. But I really do love hers. So I'm really excited to introduce you to her. If you've never heard her before, you're going to love her.
- [05:10]
Advertiser 2
Here she is. Katie, welcome to Frugal Friends. We are so excited to have you and talk about your book that I am very excited to read.
- [05:25]
Tom Brokaw
Oh thank you. I'm really excited to be here. So thanks for having me.
- [05:29]
Host 1
We're fangirling, this is fun for us, fun for our audience and you've got some really great things that you Talk about in your book that's coming out. And one of the things that stood out to me that I'm curious to get your perspective on is a hot girl detox. This sounds really fun in the budget. Can you tell us about it?
- [05:49]
Tom Brokaw
Yes. So the hot girl detox is a conceptual offshoot from the hot girl hamster wheel, which is the phrase that I came up with to describe just the absolute litany of recurring expenses that are necessary to uphold what I call the capital A, capital F, acceptable feminine experience or appearance. So I call it a hamster wheel because the nature of these purchases is such that many of them are things you can't really just do once. Like every single dollar that you spend is a commitment to spending more in the future. So I experienced this firsthand when I was in my early 20s and I was getting serious about my finances for the first time. And as you all know, the first thing that you do when you want to get better with money is you have to sit down if you do an audit and you have to understand, where is my money going? And I had been warned by all of the male personal finance gurus that I was following and listening to every day that, oh, housing is a big problem for most people. Transportation is a big problem for most people. You're going to have to watch your restaurant spending. So I go in expecting to find high expenses or high percentages in those areas. That is not what I found. I lived with a roommate in an old building. I had a car that was pretty reasonably priced and within my means. And my restaurant spending was pretty average. But there was a section that really jumped out at me when I did this audit. And it was my personal care and beauty expenses. So I sit down and I start punching the numbers in the calculator on my phone. And I'm like, that can't be right. There's no way that that's right. And then I rerun all the numbers again and it was like, oh, nope, that, that is correct. I am spending over $300 a month on beauty on average. Now, at the time, this represented almost 10% of my take home pay. So I had this horrifying realization that I was working for almost an entire month every year just to be pretty, basically. And I essentially realized at the time, this is not going to work. I can't keep doing this. So I did the hot girl detox. And now if somebody listening at home wants to do a hot girl detox, basically the steps that you take are you sit down, you list every single Beauty or personal care expense that you have, you power rank them. So you're going to go, okay, this is the most important thing to me. It's number one all the way down to like the nice to haves. And then little by little, one by one, starting at the bottom, you are going to pull them out of the budget and you're going to pull them off the calendar. And I bet what you will find is what I found and that is that you are probably going to do this to try to get money back. But what you're going to find is that you're going to get a lot of time back too. And that in some ways can be just as valuable. So now, you know, five to seven years later, I have introduced a couple of the things back. I mean I will still get my hair cut and still still get highlights sometimes or you know, every once in a while have to buy skincare or new mascara. But even now that I can afford those things, I didn't add them back in because doing that detox and experimenting with my spending in that way taught me that even though I thought I valued those things, I really didn't and my life wasn't any poorer without them.
- [09:14]
Host 1
It's such a helpful thing to highlight because yeah, we do have these bigger expenses. We talk about the big three all the time. But these, these other of almost subscription based even if we're not actually subscribed to a nail salon or a hair salon analogy actually. But so much I, I love how you've described. We are signed up for these things and kind of enslaved to them. But I'm curious how you saw this impacting then just like view of self because that could feel really scary for someone to be like am I giving up this 15 step process skin routine? Am I really gonna not get my eyebrows done? Like what, what then happens? Have you found any replacements or. Because we talk about. It's not just about deprivation, it's about finding what works for you. What did that look like in your journey?
- [10:08]
Tom Brokaw
Well, something that I found out after the fact years later is that what I was spending was actually almost exactly what the average was. Your average woman spends as of 2017 around $300 per month on beauty and personal care. So. So I do think it's important to start there because it helps us kind of set the stakes. Obviously listeners of this show will be familiar with the idea of opportunity cost and if you're spending money on something that means you can't be investing it. So if you were to take over a 40 year career, the average monthly beauty spending of around $300. And you were to invest that. Instead you're going to retire with an extra million dollars. Now that is not a cost at the margin. We're not talking about the latte. This is a retirement supporting amount of money. And so I think it's important to get clear on the idea that we have become so comfortable and so adept at discussing beauty standards as psychologically oppressive forces in our lives, but we often don't think about them as economically oppressive forces. So when we talk about, oh, it feels vulnerable or it feels risky to disengage or to divest from these systems, that's because you probably receive signals every single time that you leave your house that the way that you look matters. We know that people who are above average, quote unquote attractiveness, and that's how they, that's how they dictate it in the studies. There's very bleak study methodology that I write about in the book where they basically line up 5,000 women and they go above average, average, below average attractiveness. And then they track their, their grades and in person classes over time. So we know that attractive people tend to have easier lives. Beauty is a real form of capital. It's social capital. We know that. So that's not to say that if it feels risky or vulnerable, that it's all in your head. But the problem with investing in beauty as capital is, is that unlike real capital, it is a depreciating asset. It's an asset that is going to require more and more cash flow as you age to kind of preserve the same benefits. It's a master that will never be satisfied. So I think about that and I go, that is not a good roi. And I am not interested in things that don't offer me a good roi. Now, am I going to get something for looking a little bit nicer? Sure. But what I found when I talked to readers about the hot girl hamster wheel, because this is something that I've been writing about for a long time, I hear interesting things. Some women who were formerly very high maintenance, maybe even more so than I was. And I was very high maintenance. Don't get me wrong. What they'll tell me is not only did I get all this money back, but I noticed that my life actually didn't really change. I still got promoted at work, my partner still loves me. The things that I feared really didn't come to pass. Or they'll tell me, yeah, I let my, I'm not coloring my hair anymore, right. Like I let it go gray. And I actually feel more powerful now because I know that in that decision, not only am I prioritizing something about my future that is a little bit more substantial than like how I look in the moment, but I'm also no longer contributing to a system that is bad for other women. And I think that's the really important thing when we talk about beauty standards that often get swept under the rug or kind of out of the way, which is that, yes, they are individual choices. Yes, these things are up to you, what you want to participate in, what you want to abstain from. But the way that beauty standards and beauty norms work is that the more people that try to embody them, the more expected they become. There's a really great culture critic named Jessica Defino who writes about this and she basically says we, when we all strive to uphold these beauty standards, then that becomes the baseline for what is expected for women to treat them with basic human dignity. So I will hear from women who say, I'm not coloring my hair anymore. I stopped getting Botox. Yeah, it's saving me money. But I also now know that when I walk down the street and another woman looks at me, she's not going to go now feel like she needs to start coloring her hair or she needs to go get Botox. So I really look at this topic as the intersection where individual choice and basically collective action kind of overlap in an interesting way. And that's why I start the book talking about this, because I think it's a really underappreciated and under discussed element of women and their financial futures.
- [14:54]
Host 1
Yeah, there's so much permission giving happening here that is really empowering. I remember seeing Chloe Daniels from, from Clover and she posted recently, although that could have been a month ago at this point about how she stopp getting her eyelashes done. And it was interesting because for me, on my side of things, and maybe some of our listeners too, we are accustomed to going without. And now that maybe we've understood money more and how we can earn more, that then we are faced with what do I do with my money? And this is what society is telling us to do. This is what maybe other women subconsciously or consciously are telling us to do. That I have had the thought in the past, if I could finally afford it, I might get my lashes done, I might get my eyebrows done, I might be able to go get waxed every other month. And then to realize and hear from some of these people who have been there, done that saying, actually, I stopped doing that. And I like how my eyes look more and I like the freedom that I'm experiencing by not doing this anymore. I think it works on both ways to help people detox from the things that they're already doing, but also inform those who might be earning more. You don't have to get onto that route at race.
- [16:11]
Advertiser 2
Yeah. And there's this sense of, like, not everyone knows what these beauty procedures are. So, like, if you're looking with someone like, super full lashes and you don't know that they get their lashes done, and then you just feel insecure and then there's no solution for you, even if you try. So then maybe you're not going to spend money on beauty, but then you're going to spend money on something else because you have this self, like, deprecating, like, feeling all the time. And all the marketing across the board is marketing to our insecurities. So it doesn't matter if it's like, insecurity in features and maybe you're not even going to spend there. Maybe you're going to spend somewhere else. So, like, if I can't be beautiful, then I'll be smart and then you're going to spend money somewhere else or I'm going to go out and spend money and, you know, happy hours and stuff.
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Host 1
So make people like me.
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Advertiser 2
Yeah, it just, it. It doesn't stop. Even if you don't consider yourself to be someone who highly values aesthetics.
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Tom Brokaw
I think the eyelash thing is just a really important example that I want to double down on for a second because one of the more insidious elements of the hamster wheel is not just that you have to keep spending to uphold appearances, but that oftentimes there is like a coercive feel force underlying. Stopping where I used to have fake eyelashes. And let me tell you, when those things come off, when you stop getting the little things adhered to your face, your regular eyelashes, your natural eyelashes, look terrible because they get brittle and broken down. Anybody who's ever gotten acrylic nails knows this game. You get acrylic nails, they look amazing for like two weeks, and then they grow out and you have to get them taken off. And the nails underneath, your natural nails that before were probably perfectly suitable and beautiful are now yellowing and brittle and scratched. Right. So oftentimes these procedures and these services have a tendency to leave, you, quote, worse off than you even were when you started. And so it's. It really does function in many ways like a trap. And so that's why I think it's not that, you know, should disengage with all of it. There very well may be things that you look at that realistically and you go, yes, and I can still afford and still want to do this one particular thing. But knowing the stakes of like, okay, well, what is really going to be the consequences of this, both financially and then, like, upkeep wise, that I think is something worth going into with eyes wide open.
- [18:49]
Advertiser 2
Yeah. And so much of, like, female aesthetics was, like, inherently designed to distract women away from other things. And like, you talk about this in your book how, like, one of the book's central themes is that the financial system wasn't built with women in mind. So, like, what are some of the hidden rules or assumptions baked into this system that more women should be aware of?
- [19:17]
Tom Brokaw
Yeah, so at a high level, I think that personal finance and investment best practices will probably be, generally speaking, the same for everybody. However, the system that we exist in now was largely shaped in subtle and overt ways by men's experiences, men's preferences, men's priorities. And so the reality is that women do statistically face different financial challenges than men do. So we've already talked about at length about the beauty and personal care consumer industries. These are industries that exist almost solely to invent insecurities and then market ways to fix them to one half of the population. You also have to consider the fact that women now negotiate just as often as men do, but they are now 15% less likely to get a raise when they ask for more money. And this is in part because a lot of negotiation advice focuses on teaching women to be aggressive, Demand your worth, ask for what you're worth. Well, that doesn't really work for women the same way it works for men. Because when women are seen as pursuing, quote, unquote, masculine goods, power, money, status, these zero sum ideas that are considered to be inherently belonging to men and therefore, like, could never rightfully belong to a woman, they are more likely to face pushback. So something that I always like to note here too though, is that this road does go both ways. That when men pursue flexibility or other things that are kind of deemed as, like, feminine values, they will also face more pushback. So really we're all trapped in, like, the prison that is the gender binary. But for women, it results in fewer resources. So over time, we see the reality of the gender wage gap worsen for women. This is true because when women become parents, when they become mothers, they are likely to kind of downshift at Work, they're more likely to downshift at work than a male partner or parent would be. And this is true, by the way, for like families where like, the man would like to be more involved or the man would like to be the one downshifting. Often the economics of the household are such that that really doesn't make sense. So you have these systemic forces that are kind of in a, I don't know, not necessarily malevolent, and you could even say it's in a benign way or kind of keeping these structures and these norms in place. So it is true that women spend less time doing paid labor than men do, but it's because they're spending on average roughly twice as much time doing unpaid labor. So I really like the work of Nobel Prize winning economist Claudia Golden. She found that this reality is the primary driver of the gender wage gap, this gap between paid and unpaid labor time effectively. And so if you look at somebody's entire lifetime and you compound those disparities and then you consider the fact that women are just going to frankly live longer, they have average lifespans that are six and a half percent longer. Well, statistically now they're going to be the ones who are going to bear the brunt of any poor long term financial planning. So we look at all these obstacles, we study them longitudinally over the lifetime, and then you can see in the data these discrepancies compound. And women retire with about 57% as much money as men do. So a big part of my work is looking at those realities, looking at that data head on and going, okay, we know if we're being intellectually honest that we're not going to fix these things in our own lives by just like, quote, unquote, making different choices. Countries that are serious about fixing these problems address them with policy. But in the meantime, we are not without agency and there are things that we can do, whether that's negotiating in a way that navigates gender bias successfully, whether that's saving for childcare before you have a baby, and getting really serious about having an egalitarian partnership and really ingesting the knowledge that you need to be in the driver's seat of your financial life, that all of these things really can make a difference. They do make a difference. So I try to marry those two realities in my work.
- [23:35]
Host 1
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Host 1
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Host 1
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Host 1
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Advertiser 2
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Tom Brokaw
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Tom Yamas
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Tom Brokaw
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Host 1
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Tom Brokaw
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- [24:46]
Host 1
See mint mobile.com NBC Nightly News Legacy.
- [24:49]
Lester Holt
Isn'T handed down or NBC News.
- [24:51]
Tom Brokaw
I'm Tom Brokaw.
- [24:51]
Host 1
You hope to see see you back here.
- [24:53]
Tom Yamas
I'm Lester Holt.
- [24:54]
Lester Holt
It's carried forward.
- [24:55]
Tom Yamas
Tom Yamas is there for us.
- [24:56]
Lester Holt
Firefighters are still working around the clock. As the world changes, we look for what endures. We are coming on the air with breaking news right now. We look for a constant and from one era to the next. Trust is the anchor for NBC Nightly News. I'm Tom Yamas. A new chapter begins. NBC Nightly News with Tom Yamas evenings on NBC.
- [25:17]
Tom Yamas
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- [25:48]
Advertiser 2
Yeah, you're so right because my husband would love to be a stay at home dad but the nature of his work is so much more stable than mine that that I am the parent that is doing drop off and pickup and he would love to be doing that. But like finance, it's the risk we can't like, afford to take. So, yeah, that's absolutely. And having having a partnership where both people are investing in each other's retirement, like, equally is so important. And knowing, like, even if you're the one making money and I'm the one staying home with the kids, you can't work without me staying home with the kids or you will be putting this money into childcare if I am not here. So value equaling, like, valuing each other's work equally.
- [26:44]
Host 1
Speaking of gender biases, gender norms, I think one of the things that stands out to me the most in this topic of salary and making money and finances is specifically salary negotiations. And you've already touched on this a bit, and I'm curious to dig in a little more on how it can look different. And I've even experienced this where if I try to implement the strategies of a bro with a podcast with 100 downloads, which I do want to bring that energy to the table.
- [27:19]
Advertiser 2
That's a 25 energy that we are bringing everywhere.
- [27:23]
Host 1
A white man with 100 downloads has all the confidence.
- [27:26]
Advertiser 2
Oh, my gosh, I've never been more successful than when I have brought that energy to the table.
- [27:32]
Host 1
Okay. But truly, when it comes to asking for more advocating for oneself entering into negotiations, it is becoming apparent that our strategies do need to be a little different, for better or worse. What have you found? How can you guide us?
- [27:49]
Tom Brokaw
So? I really love the work of this woman named Katherine Valentine who we have.
- [27:53]
Advertiser 2
Had on the show. We will link that episode.
- [27:56]
Tom Brokaw
I'm glad that you have. So some of this might sound familiar, but I do want to share one of the biggest negotiating tips that she shared with me that I find to be extremely relevant, even beyond the scope of just the very direct ask of more money. And it's to stop talking. Women are socialized to put other people at ease, to make other people feel comfortable, right? So if you're asking somebody for more money or you're. You're really making any sort of ask of them, that's kind of uncomfortable, kind of inherently uncomfortable. And so often what they'll find in this research about gender bias and negotiation is that women will make the ask and then they will immediately begin negotiating against themselves and offering all the reasons why. They totally understand if it's not doable right now. And I know the budgets are tight. So, like, if it's not this time, then maybe you've probably heard this, seen this, and maybe even done this yourself. I know that I have. So the advice is, once you make the ask and in the book, I outline the specific ways to, like, structure that ask for the best results. Stop talking and allow the uncomfortable silence. The other really critical thing to remember that I have found very useful in my own work and in my time in corporate settings is that workplaces are a little bit like glorified high school lunchrooms. And so in many ways, perception is reality. So the best time to begin setting the groundwork for a negotiation is long before you are actually sitting down to have that conversation. There are a couple components of how you approach this. I generally bucket them into two main categories. The first is your perceived value in the company, and the second is your market rate. So aside from upskilling, you have a lot less control over your market rate than you do your perceived value. So there are a couple little tricks that I like to use for really disproportionately shaping that perceived value. Women are extremely hard workers, by and large. That is a generalization I'm very comfortable making. So my advice is these are not ways to work harder. These are ways to work smarter. So the first is socializing your wins. Oftentimes, popular negotiation advice will encourage you to keep a list of your accomplishments. And that is great, but it's actually way better if people know about those accomplishments as they are happening. So this is kind of an art and a science. There was one gal that I worked with at Southwest Airlines back in the day. She got promoted pretty much every time there was a promotion cycle. So I really studied her and what she was doing differently, and she was excellent at this. She would communicate her team's wins and the initiatives that she was driving for them as part of, like, oh, just sharing out learnings that others might find useful. From this, you know, user experience testing session that we were working on. Let me know if you'd like to talk more. I'm attaching a deck of findings. You know, so you're, you're really. It. It's a slippery slope because you don't want it to be a bragging montage. But the bottom line is that if you are doing impressive things, people need to know about it. The next is going the extra yard. So note, we're not talking about the extra mile, just a yard. If your deadline for three factors that are impacting conversion is due on Friday, you're going to hand it over on Thursday, and you're going to throw in a fourth. If you are meeting with someone, particularly somebody who is above you in the organization, you're going to send an agenda ahead of time and you're going to manage up. I think that this is especially important if you are bringing an issue to a manager. Because if you're setting up a meeting with somebody like a manager or a supervisor and you are bringing an issue to them, you're dropping a problem in their lap, that's no good. It's a little bit better to come with an explanation like here's my issue and here's what I think is causing it. But what's even better than that is coming prepared with a few potential solutions and ideally which solution you recommend. And if you have the latitude to do this. Oh, by the way, I've already implemented my recommended solution. I'm just keeping you in the loop now. So that is something that I think goes a really, really long way. Particularly as you kind of get stuck in that quote unquote middle management, oh my gosh, morass with executing at a level that will allow the people that probably have a say over whether you are going to ascend higher, giving them the impression that you are there to make their lives easier effectively and that you are autonomous in your job. I think that that goes a really, really long way. So my approach to negotiation, as you've probably gathered, is yes, specific. Yes, we're going to talk about the semantics. Yes, we're going to talk about how to structure your asking your argument, but we should also widen the aperture and talk about how you're actually approaching the job so that when you sit down to have that conversation, it's just smooth sailing.
- [32:48]
Advertiser 2
Yes. Sharing your wins strategically like that. That is white man with a hundred downloading energy. That is what we mean because they have, we see them sharing these things and we're like, that's it. To me, it's not impressive because I've like done that so long ago. But to other people who you need to impress, they, they don't know that. And they see that person sharing that success and that knowledge that comes with it, but they don't see you sharing it, so they don't know you have it.
- [33:26]
Host 1
Yeah. And it, it can feel braggadocious or whatever you want to say about it, especially for women. But I, I do like the blanketing it in also a way to help other people as well, which is, that's.
- [33:40]
Tom Brokaw
Something that we already expect from women to do. We expect women to act. We expect women to think communally to be helpful. So the more you can, I don't know, man, play into that trope. Now, trust me, I'm the first person to be like, let's Break the glass fourth wall for a second. That's so annoying that we have to think this way. But this is the world we live in. And if you want to be recognized for the good work that you're doing, these are some ways to make sure that that happens.
- [34:07]
Advertiser 2
Yeah. And there is a balance between fighting against the system and playing to your advantages within the system. And you don't have to choose one or the other. You can do both. And I love that you do that. Uh, last question is that you make a strong case for women claiming unapologetic financial autonomy. Uh, so for someone just waking up to how uneven the playing field is, what's the very first mindset, shift or action you'd recommend?
- [34:42]
Tom Brokaw
Oh, the first mindset, shift or action.
- [34:46]
Host 1
Unless you want to jump to step 10.
- [34:48]
Tom Brokaw
But no, I think, I think that that's a good question, because I think that it's a step that every single person is going to have to confront. And before I answer it, I just want to tell you a little bit more about why unapologetic financial autonomy is where I landed. And it was some of the research that I found that bolstered chapter three, which is called Knowledge is Power. It's research from a bank called ubs. And every year they do something called the own your worth report. And what they find consistently is that even high earning, millennial women, so we're talking a young woman, and we're talking women that are making a lot of money, in many cases are the breadwinners in their relationships. They're the primary. They are the primary financial providers in their homes, still have a tendency to outsource their financial decision making to male partners. Something like 70% of men in these surveys will claim, I am the financial decision maker in this home. And there are a lot of reasons for this. I mean, a popular reason for this, to be honest, if we want to link this back to systemic forces, is that women today, even modern high income women, are very overburdened in their homes. To link it back to the time you study data, right? We know that women are within familial relationships, probably spinning a lot more plates just on average. Now, if someone in your relationship is saying, don't worry, babe, I got it, I'll take care of the money they're offering to take something off your plate, and maybe it's something that you don't feel very confident about anyway, you're like, great, yeah, one less thing that I have to worry about. So it makes difference. A perfect sense why we've gotten here. But what jumped out to me in this research is that a lot of women, what they say when asked, why do you do this? Is something to the effect of, well, financial decision making is just, quote, less natural for me. And that phrase jumped out at me immediately because I was like, natural. Well, nothing about managing money and thriving under capitalism is natural. I mean, everyone has to learn how to do that. No one comes out of the womb knowing how to balance a checkbook or diversify a portfolio. So I thought, okay, that's a really good insight. The idea that we feel as though this is something that should come naturally to us is something that we can affect right now. And that's why I called it Knowledge is Power, chapter three, where we really get into some of the granularities around how to plan long term for your finances. But that's why I really wanted to lean into this idea that we need to be unapologetic about this. We need to recognize that this is something that not only are we capable of doing, but we really ought to be doing it. We are the best people to be making these decisions about our future. No one is going to care more about it than we do. Even our spouses, who we may love very much. 84% of widows in America are women, which means even women who are married to wonderful male partners who never get divorced will still need to know how to manage their money on their own. So I think getting out of the mentality that any of this should be coming naturally to you is probably the mindset shift that I would say somebody.
- [38:12]
Advertiser 2
Should start with, which is, it's crazy because as a high performing woman, I think a lot of things do come naturally to us. So like, it's just you catch on to more things more quickly. Right. And so I don't know if there's like a disconnect, obviously, like us being in personal finance, like, that's just something that we live in and comes, you know, more quickly. But I wonder if that's part of it. It's that more things, they do pick up more quickly and just haven't gone into the money part.
- [38:50]
Tom Brokaw
Yeah, I think it probably comes down to interest too, because, I mean, I don't know, I don't know that it's true that money came. Came naturally or easily to me or if it was just that I was so interested in it that learning about it felt easy. And that might have been your experience too, where you were just so enthralled with a topic that like studying it was fun. But if I needed to know physics to manage my life and future, I can promise you I would be like, hey, anyone else in my immediate circle want to handle this for me?
- [39:24]
Host 1
Because I'm.
- [39:24]
Tom Brokaw
Yeah, I could learn it, but I'm not interested in learning it. So it might be a matter of interest as well. But I really think that, that the majority of women, particularly type of women that are being interviewed in surveys like these, they have done and mastered far more complex topics than personal finance, as the two of you probably know. Like, we're not talking about rocket scientists, rocket science here. A lot of this stuff is pretty, pretty manageable once you, like, pull back the curtain or lift up the hood. So that's probably where I would start.
- [40:00]
Advertiser 2
Yeah.
- [40:01]
Host 1
You know, what I'm always interested in, and actually it does come quite naturally to me.
- [40:06]
Advertiser 2
It has truly come probably most natural in anything that we've done in podcasting.
- [40:12]
Host 1
The bill of the week.
- [40:25]
Tom Yamas
That's right. It's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name is William. Maybe you paid off your mortgage, maybe your car died and you're happy to not have to pay that bill anymore. Duck Bills. Buffalo Bills. Bill Clinton.
- [40:41]
Advertiser 2
This is the bill of the week, Katie. Every week, we yell at our listeners and our guests to share with us their bill of the week, and we leave it as vague as possible to give you the freedom to be unapologetically autonomous in your answer.
- [41:03]
Tom Brokaw
Cool. Okay, my bill of the week. I'm gonna. Gonna go the business owner route here. I just invested and I paid part of the invoice, which is why it's my bill of the week this week. Around $15,000 in getting a custom site made. And this is the biggest investment I've ever made personally in the business. So I'm excited about it. It's a lot of money. I hope it pays off. But we're living through the risk reward cycle as we speak.
- [41:37]
Advertiser 2
Your branding upgrade is flawless. It is my favorite branding, at least in personal finance, but, like, really in a lot of other places too.
- [41:50]
Tom Brokaw
So I will pass that very kind compliment along to the designers. Thank you.
- [41:54]
Advertiser 2
It's so good.
- [41:55]
Host 1
Oh, business decisions. We were having a conversation ourselves where to invest money, because there are so many options and everybody wants your money. And figuring out what is going to be the best thing now and long term, what's the opportunity cost here? It is no small thing. And it is a little bit different than maybe some of the ways that we would approach our own personal finances and the choices that we would make. So yeah, we can appreciate that. We feel that so deeply. Well done for making this decision and we are hopeful with you that it turns out yet.
- [42:31]
Tom Brokaw
Yeah, I know. I'm like come back to moneywithkatie.com in August and hopefully you'll be greeted by a much, much improved experience.
- [42:39]
Advertiser 2
Fun.
- [42:40]
Host 1
If you all listening, have a bill that you want to share. If it's about just a full send on a business investment or a bill that you didn't have to pay or your name is Bill, visit frugalfriendspodcast.com Bill, leave it for us. We cannot wait.
- [42:57]
Lester Holt
The NBC Nightly News legacy isn't handed.
- [43:00]
Host 1
Down or NBC News.
- [43:01]
Tom Brokaw
I'm Tom Brokaw.
- [43:02]
Host 1
You hope to see you back.
- [43:03]
Tom Brokaw
I'm Lester Holt.
- [43:04]
Lester Holt
It's carried forward.
- [43:05]
Tom Yamas
Tom Yamas is there for us.
- [43:07]
Lester Holt
Firefighters are still working around the clock. As the world changes, we look for what endures. We are coming on the air with breaking news. Right now, we look for a constant and from one era to the next, trust is the anchor. For NBC Nightly News, I'm Tom Yamas. A new chapter chapter begins NBC Nightly News with Tom Yamas evenings on NBC.
- [43:27]
Tom Yamas
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway, now through June 24. Score hot summer savings and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags on items like General Mills cereal, drumstick, frozen treats, outshine fruit bars, Oreo cookies and Capri sun pouches. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery subject to availability restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.
- [43:57]
Advertiser 1
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Katie Gotti Tassen
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- [45:35]
Host 1
And now it's time for lightning Boom.
- [45:41]
Advertiser 2
All right, let's get real vulnerable right now. What's a recent life experience that made you feel like a rich girl?
- [45:50]
Tom Brokaw
Oh, man. A recent life experience that made me feel like a rich girl. Well, so for my book promotional tour, I'm doing a talk at 92nd Street Y in New York, which is, I learned, I didn't know this because I'm not from there, but is apparently, like, a really, really good venue for that sort of thing. And I kind of have a moment of like, oh, wow, I've made it like, I'm talking about my new book at this, you know, prestigious New York venue. And I am a kind of normal, normal person from Northern Kentucky who had never really set foot in a real city until she was an adult. So I definitely had a moment of, wow. I've really. I've really come a long way.
- [46:42]
Advertiser 2
Yeah.
- [46:42]
Host 1
That is so cool.
- [46:44]
Advertiser 2
That's awesome.
- [46:44]
Host 1
Congratulations. What about for you, Jen?
- [46:48]
Tom Brokaw
Oh.
- [46:50]
Advertiser 2
So I don't. I don't know if it made me feel like a rich girl, but last week we got invited to be on a news segment. And when we get there, like, they reached out to us. And when we get there, we're like, so how did you, like, find us? And the anchor, she's like, my daughter is a huge fan. And I was like, dang, that sounds, like, so fun.
- [47:16]
Jen
Yeah.
- [47:17]
Advertiser 2
So she was, like, begging me to get you guys on, so that was very gratifying.
- [47:23]
Host 1
Yeah, that is cool. And I got to share in that, too, so I won't steal that one.
- [47:29]
Advertiser 2
I'm sorry if that could be yours.
- [47:30]
Host 1
No, that's fine for me. I have been really enjoying figuring out. We have been giving ourselves permission year over year to earn more and recognizing the responsibility that we have to be able to manage money well and not approach it from a scarcity or deprivation mindset. And so that has been happening, and then to have more to be able to make decisions with. And so one of the decisions that I made recently was to pay my friend, who is starting her own business, to pull together a personalized style. She's gotten into style theory and kind of did this whole testing quizzes, measurements on me and is creating a whole style guide for me to feel much more confident in the clothing that I wear as. I also aim at having a minimalist wardrobe that I am able to purchase secondhand. So it feels so values aligned, but also, you know, extra like it's not bare minimum and it's giving to a friend. And I just feel like a rich girl.
- [48:40]
Tom Brokaw
Yeah.
- [48:41]
Advertiser 2
When we got our. Our colors done, that was like. Have you heard of, like, getting your wardrobe colors done?
- [48:49]
Tom Brokaw
I've heard of it. I've never done it. What were. What were yours?
- [48:53]
Advertiser 2
I'm an autumn.
- [48:54]
Host 1
I'm a summer.
- [48:56]
Advertiser 2
So that has been super helpful in understanding why am I holding on to these things in my closet, but I never wear them. And it's like, oh, because the color doesn't look really good, or why do I not have any of this color in my closet? Oh, because I keep looking at this shade when really this is the shade that looks best on me. So that was really eye opening for. For us to. For me to. And then now I can thrift more easily. Like, I just stay away from certain colors and.
- [49:29]
Tom Brokaw
Yeah.
- [49:30]
Host 1
Yeah. Well, so there's your sales pitch.
- [49:32]
Advertiser 2
Katie.
- [49:34]
Host 1
Everyone already knows about you, but in case they. In case they're not fully aware, where can they get more from you?
- [49:42]
Tom Brokaw
Well, if you like podcasts, check out the Money with Katie show. If you like to read, like longer form essays, I send those out nearly every week on the Money with Katie newsletter, which you can find at the imminently remodeled moneywithkatie.com and then on Instagram, you can find me at Moneying with Katie. And of course, if you are interested, you can pick up my new book, Rich Girl Nation.
- [50:06]
Host 1
Excellent. Thanks so much for being here with us.
- [50:09]
Tom Brokaw
Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.
- [50:13]
Host 1
That was a dream come true. Because I don't fan out over many of our guests. Usually I don't know who they are.
- [50:21]
Advertiser 2
Wow.
- [50:22]
Host 1
They come on the show.
- [50:23]
Jen
Sorry. If you've ever been on the show.
- [50:25]
Host 1
And then we became friends and that's great. That's. That's the best way. Organic, authentic. Katie, however, I. I follow. Never thought that we'd be able to wrangle her in for our podcast, but she was so kind and willing and that was very fun for us. And I Loved her concept of the hot girl hamster wheel. Honestly, anytime we can like reframe a situation and look at it from a new angle, it's. That's very fun for me. And anytime we can push back on well established ideas and kind of say, what about if we're a little subversive here? And are we sure that that's actually where we're spending the most money? And are we sure that we really need to cut our rent? If we've already slashed it so far, there might be other areas that we need to be looking at.
- [51:17]
Jen
Yeah, questioning the traditional norms because and personal finance is so different now than even it was five years ago or 10 years ago. It always behooves us to be questioning what was right then. If it's still right now, nine times out of ten it will still be like good advice then is still good advice now. But there's always something that can be improved upon or changed. So I love that I can go to Katie's content to rethink some of the things that I have thought of as normal.
- [51:56]
Host 1
So true. Well, thank you all so much for listening for watching. If you're on YouTube, if you are on YouTube, please hit that subscribe button. It really helps us.
- [52:05]
Jen
If you're not on YouTube, head over to Frugal Friends on YouTube and also.
- [52:09]
Host 1
Hit the subscribe button please. We really love your listening and your watching and we also love your reading because many of you have read our book Buy what you love without going broke that we wrote and published earlier this year. And we've been loving to read some of those kind reviews like this one from Michelle Pavlovich. Five stars. This book was entertaining and easy to digest. I've been a Frugal Friends podcast listener for years now and I still learned new concepts with this book. Jen and Jill offer tangible tips and a call to action at the end of every chapter that was important to us. I'm so glad we did that. I love their simple approach to managing spending and building a life that aligns with your values while still offering grace for our humanity. An easy read and I'll be revisiting on a regular basis. Thank you Michelle so much. We're so glad that those action steps and questions at the end of every chapter was super useful for you.
- [53:08]
Jen
Yeah. If you enjoyed the show, please take a minute to leave a rating and review. It helps potential new listeners and watchers know what the show is all about. And if you've read the book, please take a minute to leave a review wherever you've gotten it. And yeah, if you haven't. Buywhatyoulovebook.com Head over there.
- [53:29]
Host 1
See you next time.
- [53:32]
Advertiser 2
Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni.
- [53:45]
Host 1
Jen, have you ever been on a hot girl hamster wheel?
- [53:51]
Jen
I feel like I never get off as much as I try.
- [54:00]
Advertiser 2
I.
- [54:01]
Host 1
What hot things are you pursuing? Hot things.
- [54:04]
Jen
It's not even hot. It's just like, like minimum standards for being a female.
- [54:11]
Advertiser 2
That's.
- [54:12]
Jen
I mean, honestly, I am not forced to do them, but they do provide confidence and so there's like this balance.
- [54:20]
Advertiser 2
Right.
- [54:21]
Jen
Like I want to feel confident, but what is confidence and what is insecurity? So that is a continual battle. Yeah, in my mind.
- [54:35]
Host 1
Yeah. Because you, you can have both people being like, yeah, be positive about your looks and you're beautiful and whatever makes you feel good. Which that like is also mashed into spending a lot on your hair, makeup, clothing, exercise, nutrition. And sometimes we can cloak it. And I just want to feel good, but a lot of times it is I just want to look good. And yet there's nothing wrong with that. It was like, oh, I could talk myself into all these circles.
- [55:06]
Jen
Episode on skinny talk and GLP1s and the health and wellness industry is coming. Yeah, I have been obsessive about that.
- [55:18]
Advertiser 2
Line.
- [55:20]
Jen
And it's coming.
- [55:22]
Advertiser 2
Subscribe for it.
- [55:25]
Host 1
Stay tuned if you want more of this conversation.
- [55:28]
Tom Brokaw
Yeah.
- [55:28]
Tom Yamas
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway now through June 24th. Score hot summer savings and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags on Items like Pepsi 2 liter bottles, poppy prebiotic sodas, all laundry detergent and Kinder's seasoning blend. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event. Long savings. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online. For easy drive up and go pick up or delivery subject to availability restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.
- [55:58]
Advertiser 1
You're great at protecting your own personal information. You probably even use things like two factor authentication, strong passwords and a vpn. But as much as you try to be in control of how your information is protected, there are lots of places that also have it and they might not be as careful as you are. That's why Lifelock monitors millions of data points every second for identity threats. If your identity is stolen, a LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all Lifelock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning Lifelock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan if you lose money due to identity theft. You might not be able to control how others handle your personal information, but you can help protect it with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code IHEARTRA or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off.
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Host 1
Terms apply behind every successful business is a vision. Bringing it to life takes more than effort. It takes the right financial foundation and support. That's where Chase for Business comes in. With convenient digital tools, helpful resources and personalized guidance, we can help your business forge ahead confidently. Learn more@chase.com business chase for business Make More of what's yours the Chase Mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. JP Morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 JP Morgan Chase & Co.
- [57:28]
Tom Yamas
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Tom Brokaw
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- [57:58]
Host 1
This is an iHeart podcast.