Klarna, Afterpay, Affirm HORROR STORIES | Buy Now Pay Later RUINS Shopping

Summary

Frugal Friends Podcast – Episode Summary

Podcast: Frugal Friends Podcast

Hosts: Jen Smith & Jill Sirianni
Episode: Klarna, Afterpay, Affirm HORROR STORIES | Buy Now Pay Later RUINS Shopping
Date: October 31, 2025

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Episode Overview

This Halloween-themed episode dives into the “horror stories” behind Buy Now, Pay Later (BNPL) platforms such as Klarna, Afterpay, and Affirm. Jen and Jill explore how these fintech services—promoted as convenient ways to split up purchases—can actually supercharge poor spending habits, lead to unmanageable debt, and ruin credit. They get candid about the behavioral psychology behind these apps, real-life cautionary tales, regulatory gaps, and practical tips for breaking the cycle. There’s also plenty of the duo’s light-hearted banter and relatable humor to balance out the financial scares.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Buy Now, Pay Later? (BNPL) and Why Is It Everywhere?

• BNPL services (Klarna, Affirm, Afterpay): Let you spread out payments for purchases, often with “0% interest” or manageable-looking installments.
• BNPL is now ubiquitous: Offered at nearly every checkout, not just for big-ticket items but also for groceries and trivial products.
• A brief history: The model initially targeted high-value goods but expanded to everyday essentials, especially surging after 2020.

Quote:

"Literally, I cannot go to a checkout for anything without being offered to pay four installments for it." — Jen (04:41)

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2. The Psychology Behind BNPL's Appeal

• Anchoring bias: We focus on the smaller payment (e.g., "just $43 today") rather than the full amount ($170).
• Mental accounting: Installments and subscriptions feel less like “debt” and more like normal bills.
• Present bias & temporal discounting: Immediate rewards are valued higher than the pain of future payments.
• Normalization through social proof: Seeing elsewhere makes it seem safe and smart.

Notable Listener Quote:

"Is anyone else like this with Klarna? ...I have the money to buy said items, but for some reason it just seems easier to Klarna them." — TikTok clip discussed by Jen and Jill (35:48)

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3. Interest Rates, Fees & Hidden Costs

• Zero percent is a trap:
  • Miss a payment? Now you’re facing up to 34% interest with Klarna, 36% with Affirm, or late fees with Afterpay.
  • Fees can add up to as much as 25% of the original purchase!
• Merchants pay hefty BNPL fees: Up to 5%, justified by statistically larger average orders.

Quote:

"Klarna will charge a fee and interest. Affirm up to 36%. Afterpay has late fees of up to $8, up to 25% of the order value. So these companies are making money..." — Jen (05:53)

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4. How Do BNPL Companies Make Money?

• Most of BNPL's income comes from merchant fees, not consumer interest. This creates a perverse incentive for widespread adoption even among vulnerable users (lower-income, lower-credit individuals).
• BNPL companies thrive even as consumer debt mounts.

Quote:

"90% of their total income for Afterpay is made from charging the merchant fees, up to 5%." — Jen (12:31)

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5. BNPL User Demographics & Why It’s Risky

• Targeting lower-income users: 68% of BNPL users have family incomes under $50k.
• Most do not have “good” credit: Only 10% have scores above 720.

Quote:

"They are targeting those with the least amount of means and they are targeting them in the wrong ways..." — Jen (25:39)

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6. Horror Stories: Real World BNPL Consequences

Story 1: $30,000 in Affirm Loans (Guardian, 22:49)

• Homeowner in Pennsylvania used BNPL for home renovations—ended up with $88,000 in credit card debt, plus $30,000 in Affirm loans.
• BNPL made it possible to take out multiple “closed-end loans” simultaneously, despite already being heavily leveraged.

Story 2: From $800 to $6,000 (Sun.com, 26:50)

• Began with an $800 Amazon purchase, snowballed into $6,000 of BNPL debt over different programs.
• Wake-up call was buying a $600 Dyson hair dryer—used just once.

Story 3: $32,000+ Across Klarna and Affirm (TikTok, 29:06)

• User racked up $32,000 since 2022: “I have done groceries, I have purchased concert tickets, Airbnb, gotten my car fixed, all kinds of stuff.”

Story 4: Mortgage Denied for $16 BNPL Debt (Australian case, 31:28)

• Woman had over $100,000 saved but was denied a home loan due to a lingering $16 Afterpay debt.
• The cumulative effect of BNPL balances can trip up even responsible consumers during major transactions (especially with new credit reporting rules).

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7. Why We Fall for BNPL – Behavioral Economics in Action

• Behavioral tricks: Installments, small upfront payments, and in-app marketing all short-circuit financial caution.
• Budgeting ≠ financing: BNPL presents loans as “budgeting tools,” subtly shifting perception away from “debt” to “responsible spending.”

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8. The Growing Regulatory Void and Consumer Risk

• BNPL is largely unregulated: Not subject to the same consumer protections as credit cards.
• The CFPB lacks oversight: Regulatory body’s powers are being cut; enforcement on predatory loan practices and credit reporting errors is weaker than ever.

Quote:

"They have tried to put in a bid to regulate buy now pay later companies, but as of right now, they are not... So they're not answering to anybody." — Jill (42:29)

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9. Frugal Friends’ Actionable Advice

• Avoid BNPL if possible, especially for non-essentials.
• Credit cards + responsible usage (paying off monthly) are safer—offer rewards, greater regulation, and more predictable impact on credit.
• Embrace discomfort:
  • Try saving first, then buying (“What if we save for it now and pay for it later?”)
  • Create a buying pause—wait 24-72 hours before making purchases.
  • Interrupt impulse buys: Remove auto-filled card info, take deep breaths, or ask yourself if you truly value the expense.
• Self-regulation is crucial due to lack of legal protection.
• If you use BNPL in emergencies, ensure you can repay before taking on next week’s groceries.

Quotes:

"Lean into the discomfort of paying for something all at once. And if it feels uncomfortable, listen to that. Maybe it's not what you value, maybe it's not what you truly want." — Jen (44:53)
"Create that pause before we buy ... nothing is so important that you can’t wait 72 hours." — Jen (45:46)

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Notable and Memorable Moments

• Satirical-sounding BNPL fan testimonials reveal how normalized and even "cultish" these programs have become—highlighting self-aware shopping addictions and the psychological tricks in play.

“I am a proud member of the Afterpay community … being someone that has a raging shopping addiction, it just makes me feel better about all the money I'm constantly spending.” — TikTok clip (06:59)

• The $16 BNPL loan that almost destroyed a mortgage deal was cited as especially horrifying—not for the amount, but for the potential to destroy major milestones because of small, lingering debts.

• Hosts’ own purchases, transparency, and humor: The “Lightning Round” (51:25) where Jen and Jill guess each other's last purchases and split them into four “fake” payments adds relatability and levity.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------------|-------------| | Episode Theme & BNPL Overview | 01:01–05:07 | | Psychology of BNPL, Social Proof, User Quotes | 05:07–08:52 | | Interest Rates, Fees, Business Model | 08:52–15:04 | | Pandemic Era BNPL Surge and Social Media Impact | 09:50–15:04 | | Eye-Opening Horror Stories (Guardian, TikTok, Sun)| 19:22–34:11 | | Behavioral Economics Explained | 35:32–40:05 | | Regulatory Gaps in the BNPL Industry | 42:29–44:23 | | Actionable Advice for Listeners | 44:53–46:56 | | Lightning Round – Hosts’ own purchases | 51:25–58:05 |

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Conclusion & Takeaways

Jen and Jill expertly blend advice, anecdotes, and accessible explanations of behavioral economics to highlight why BNPL is so dangerous—particularly for those with the least financial margin for error. Their stories serve as both warnings and motivation for listeners to examine their own spending psychology, resist marketing traps, and self-regulate in a world with less consumer protection than ever.

Bottom line:

• BNPL can seem small and benign, but the risks are very real—even for those who think they're "in control."
• Avoid using BNPL unless absolutely necessary; if you must, use as a last-resort tool with full awareness of the repayment schedule and total cost.
• Embrace saving and delayed gratification—this is true frugality and lasting financial security.

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For Further Listening/Reading:

• [Episode 350: Our Favorite Money Murder Scam](Mentioned at 03:44)
• [Reducing Medical Bills—Episode Link Mentioned at 49:19]
• [Wall Street Journal’s Economics of BNPL video](Referenced multiple times)
• [Frugal Friends Budgeting Tools & Monarch App Discount] (Mentioned at 38:15)

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Frugal Friends Podcast is produced by Eric Sirianni.

Transcript

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[Jen]

Buy Now, Pay later was supposed to make shopping easier. In reality, it has left people in debt with ruined credit and with shopping addictions that are supercharged.

[Jill]

So on this All Hallows Eve, we have three scary Buy Now, Pay later horror stories for you with real people, real scary consequences. And of course we're going to share how to be able to protect yourself if you've already swiped your way into one of these foreign.

[Jen]

Welcome to the.

[Jill]

Frugal Friends podcast where you'll learn to save money, embrace simplicity, and live a richer life. Here are your hosts, Jen and Jill.

[Jen]

Welcome Frugal Friends. I'm Jen. I'm Jill and Happy Halloween if you are listening to this or watching it when it comes out on October 31st. And if you're not watching it, you are totally missing out on Jill and I's super, super insane Halloween costumes. Like just all over the top. Essentially. Cosplay I think you could call it. If there are any cosplayers in the chat, please affirm, affirm, affirm in the comments for us. This is not going to stay on.

[Jill]

Though, so it's all getting a little itchy.

[Jen]

So sorry but well, welcome. This has been an episode I have been excited to do for a while because five years ago I had a channel called Modern Frugality and this is before I went full time with Frugal Friends and I did an episode on the horrors of Buy Now Pay later and it got the most views of any video I had done on the channel and to date. And I am sad to say that in five years that episode aged really well. Yikes. It got so many negative comments and I was still new to video making. So I also like, didn't have, I guess, the empathy that I have now for different situations that Buy Now Pay later would be useful in. And also it did not have the breadth of usefulness that it had five years ago too. So viewing it from a different perspective. But also it's Halloween and every Halloween we love to do if our release date falls on the 31st, a special spooky, scary episode.

[Jill]

Yeah, there was a time when our episode release day fell on Halloween and we did our favorite Money Murder scam. So that's episode 350 in case you're well, the numbers don't mean anything to you, but look up my favorite Money.

[Jen]

Murder scam, the link to it in the description.

[Jill]

And so while Buy Now Pay later services aren't technically scams, they there are some scary stories about how it has impacted people financially who have chosen to use these things. Of course, some of them are extreme examples, but we're seeing it everywhere from Affirm Klarna afterpay. It is an option for us at nearly every point of sale. And so I think it's worth us knowing what, what are these things about? What's the risk? Why might people be utilizing these? What who are they for? So some of like the psychology behind what draws people to use a Buy.

[Jen]

Now pay later even when they have money. And you'll see this a lot like people have the money to spend on the thing and still choose the Buy now pay later because it is everywhere. I don't know if you've noticed it listening to this, but literally I cannot go to a checkout for anything without being offered to pay four installments for it.

[Jill]

No kidding. And it is tempting in, in some regard because we're going to talk about the psychology in a bit. But to see that zero percent interest, right? So immediately my mind's like, okay, well yeah, maybe I'll break it up. However, there are some stats there to this that for Klarna people are paying up to 34% interest. Of course, if you miss a payment and if you miss a payment by 10 days, a late fee could apply up to $7 or. But it won't exceed 25% of the whole value of the order. But obviously they're getting you with the zero percent. But there is a point where they're going to charge even more than a credit card might charge in interest if you do miss those payments.

[Jen]

Yeah, yeah. So Klarna will charge a fee and interest. A Firm up to 36% interest after pay has late fees of up to $8, up to 25% of the order value. So these people, these companies are making money, but they're. There's been a lot of misinformation that we'll talk about in, throughout the episode that this is dangerous for those companies. It's actually not. And so we'll get into that. But there is, there is this like culty following around Buy now pay leaders to where it doesn't matter how much debt you see advertised that these companies are in, the more people using that use them and are dedicated to them, the more they will succeed. I mean, just like, look at the way people talk about them. You know what, I'm just going to say it because I think we need to stop the hate and stigma. I am a proud member of the afterpay community and you know what? I think some people abuse afterpay and.

[Jill]

That'S why it gets a bad rap.

[Jen]

I'm not one of those people that afterpay is things that I couldn't actually pay for in full, you know, but being someone that has a raging shopping addiction, it just makes me feel better about all the money I'm constantly spending. For example, today I placed a Sephora order and it was like $170. You know how much better I felt about myself financially knowing that I was paying $43 today as opposed to paying $170 today. My shelves are full of makeup. I can't really ment justify buying more makeup, but I mean, hey, it's only $43. I think who it's really there for is those of us who are mentally ill and addicted to shopping because it helps us feel better about our poor financial decisions. Thorough math is instead of going to the mall and swiping 250 on items.

[Jill]

Is using Klarna to pay for that.

[Jen]

Because it helps build your credit. You also only pay like 38 to 40amonth, whatever it splits it into.

[Jill]

And then when you look at it and the months pass and you're using the stuff, you've used it and accumulated.

[Jen]

It in a way where it makes.

[Jill]

Sense because, like, you're not spending 200 at once.

[Jen]

I'm addicted to Klarna. It's absolutely terrible. I love a planner. Like, genuinely, you are my best friend. This iPad was not 300 pound it was 100.

[Jill]

All right. It's brilliant.

[Jen]

The pain free, I love you.

[Jill]

It makes me think I have money.

[Jen]

More money than what I have. I'm like, okay, it's fine that you can't. But it's not.

[Jill]

It's like 175. So the.

[Jen]

So the first one, I really thought that one was satire and. But I looked through her account and it's not. It's not satire.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

That is, unless the entire thing is satire. But I'm usually good at like, like picking up on that. And I didn't pick up on that. Yeah.

[Jill]

I mean, I can understand the draw. Right. It feels better to spend less than to spend more. And you still get the thing that you want. But of course there's a darker side to it.

[Jen]

Yeah. And the second one where she was like, you build your credit. It's a common misconception that you'll build your credit with these because they do a soft pull if. If you're doing the pay in four and the zero interest and you do not get any credit reporting on a soft pull. So if you're doing the 0% interest, then you will not build your credit with on time payments. The only time that you would build your credit is if you're on one of their other plans that they all offer. Now it's not just paying for, but they do have actual short term closed end loans where you pay interest over multiple months. Kind of like a credit card. But you'll see that they actually hate credit cards. It's actually kind of weird how much they hate credit cards. And so you don't really build your credit unless you're treating it like a credit card.

[Jill]

Yeah. It seems like it's just come out of nowhere. Almost like one day it wasn't there and then all of a sudden there's this option and they're trying to push.

[Jen]

This option to put your burrit with four payments that it like it wasn't there. And then you could put your burrito 100%.

[Jill]

It's on some of the smallest of things. And really Buy now, pay later did explode in 2020 and it has grown 20 times since 2019. So there was probably something about the pandemic that just made this thing.

[Jen]

Well, yeah, when you have people losing their jobs in 2020, of course this was. And that's why I did that video in 2021, because it was taking off wildly. But you could still only put really higher value consumer goods. So this was very much targeted at, you know, those higher ticket Items, jackets, nice denims, jewelry. Actually the it is not klarna afterpay that was nvent the guy that is the CEO of that started it to increase sales at his jewelry store in Australia. So that was how that came to be. So higher ticket items like that and now it's moved into like groceries and consumables. But the Wall Street Journal has a really great video on the economics of buy now pay later that we watched and got a lot of info from and we will link to that video but, but we learned a lot about why these companies will thrive no matter how like basically no matter how much debt consumers have.

[Jill]

Well and so most of them are arranged by you know, for interest free payments, fee free payments.

[Jen]

That's how they get you. Yes.

[Jill]

And if you can do that, okay like fine kind of then yes. No harm, no foul. In some ways however, the way that they make their money, these companies is primarily from interest but also the stores paying them a percentage. So in that interview that we watched that the Wall Street Journal put out, the CEO of a firm said that 20% of their consumer business is interest free while 80% of it is loans that have interest on them. So most of what they are doing is involving interest even if you're just using the interest free.

[Jen]

Yeah, but more than that, the CEO of Afterpay stated that 90%. Yeah, that made me a little of a clump. 90% of their total income for after pay is made from charging the merchant fees up to 5%. So theoretically when a merchant offers buy now pay later their average transaction value increases. And I, I'm unsure what the studies say but it could be like from 10 to 25% people will spend that much more if they're able to pay in four. So after pay or the BNPL will charge that merchant a fee for making that loan available to them and it behooves the merchant to pay that because they are making more in higher average transactions. So I'll pay after pay a 5% fee because this person is spending 25% more at my store. And so this, that is how these companies make most of their revenue. So when we see these like reports about you know them being in so much debt from the consumers, it doesn't affect them as much as we would think. Like I saw a video being like after payer Karna's going bankrupt because they've got so much debt. Yeah, they got a lot of debt but they got. And we'll look at the revenue later on.

[Jill]

Yeah, I think too the thing that stands out to me. I still can't get over how much people are using this on just the daily necessities. And, and some of your smaller ticket items. I mean, for example, groceries, it's not, it's not a smaller ticket item. It can be depending on what our grocery store purchase is, if we're not shopping, you know, for the entire week. But a quarter of Buy Now, Pay later users have used it to buy groc groceries in this past year, which was up 24% from 2024. So people are using this a lot on regular daily things just to make those payments seem a little bit smaller. And now a lot of these companies have cards that you can use in store as well. And so all of it kind of leads to some, some scary situations that we can get ourselves into.

[Jen]

It was hilarious watching that video from the Wall Street Journal that the CEO of a firm, when he talked about the decimation of revolving credit, which is credit cards, his face just lit up. He's like, we want to see a world without any more revolving credit.

[Jill]

I think that's better.

[Jen]

As if you're an altruist, as if you are just a beacon of hope for humanity. You want to, you want revolving credit gone because you want to give everyone these closed end loans that they're going to be paying you interest on. Sir, come on, you are not doing good for the society. So it was just hilarious. Like he was, you know, that that is his mantle that he wants to bring to the world is the end of revolving credit. And, and they kind of discuss, discussed. Do you think Buy Now, Pay later will replace credit cards? And ultimately most people think no. But for some people, especially younger generations who are seeing people deal with wild credit card debt, like their parents or aunts, uncles, whatever, seeing them deal with this. And like in our home refinance episode that we did, like, people are refinancing from 4% interest rates to 8% interest rates to pay off their credit cards. Like just making wild financial moves. Yeah, if you're seeing that, Buy now, pay later seems like a really good option and some good barriers to draw. But ultimately, I think unless you can see rewards being built in, like the kind of rewards we see with travel rewards, I don't think we're going to see the end of revolving credit in that CEO's lifetime. But I do think it will continue to grow. Like, I don't think it's going anywhere.

[Jill]

Yeah, yeah. And as long as it sticks around, we're going to see some, some consequences that are not so great for some people when it comes to this. Every year during open enrollment, I'm reminded how confusing healthcare can be. Higher premiums, fine print and plans that never seem to fit. It feels like the system is built to keep us stuck.

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Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride Bank NA members. FDIC Spot me Eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Timing depends on submission of payment file fees. Apply it out of network ATMs bank ranking and number of ATMs according to US News and World Report 2023 Chime checking account required like this first one from the Guardian and it's titled how did I get approved for $30,000 is buy now, Pay later, headed for a fall. And so this woman purchased a home in Berwick, Pennsylvania, and the place needed remodeling. So she had to replace the water heater, get new appliances, yada, yada. So by 2023, so in four years, the way that she financed all of this, and because the loans taken out for the home itself, it was impossible for Hartman and her husband to get personal loans to cover the renovation. So normally you would do a, like a home renovation loan. And what we did when we, we bought a home that needed full renovation, and so we did not put all the money down. And I think you guys did this too. We didn't put all the money down that we could have. We put the bare minimum so that we had the money. And then when, when I needed a new car, I didn't need a new car. When I got a minivan, yeah, instead of paying for that car in cash, I took out a loan on it so that I could have that loan for the car and keep the cash for the renovation. Because a car loan has lower interest than a home renovation loan and just harder to get a home renovation loan. But in four years, they maxed out credit cards and used a firm, and they got to $88,000 of credit card debt and $30,000 of debt on a firm alone. How. And how. And they, they tout like being like underwriting each loan. Right. So these are in. Every time you make a transaction on one of these Buy now, pay later, that is an individual loan that you get, unlike a credit card, your revolving credit, that's one credit line, essentially, it's not a loan, but it would, it's one line. And so when you use these Buy now, pay later, you have individual loans for each transaction. They're closed, ended. And so she had almost $30,000 just in one. And that's supposed to be, that should be impossible. They had a household income of $150,000 a year. There's no way that should have been possible if you're under, if you're underwriting, and I say that with, like, air quotes, if you're underwriting each loan, you're also supposed to be looking into the other debt that, that a person has. So, like that $88,000 of credit card debt. So there's some kind of disconnect from what they're advertising, which is these are safe. We're not going to give you more money than you can pay off. This is much safer than a credit card to what is happening in reality.

[Jill]

And I don't think it was $30,000 lump sum. I think over time this is over four years needing to pay and again, higher interest rates than even credit cards. And credit cards have astronomical interest rates. So yeah, this is quite the debt burden that she found herself in. Certainly she made those decisions. But there's also responsibility on the Buy Now Pay later apps end of what is being lent, right? There is, there is both, there's responsibility on both ends of what, what we are allowing this person to get into full well, knowing they probably won't be able to pay this back and we're just going to burden them with this level of interest.

[Jen]

Yeah. And people are using this as a replacement to credit cards that they can't get, they can't get more credit cards. So this article is saying the service is used more by Americans with lower credit scores. So only 10% of those credit scores are above 720, which is considered to be a very good credit score. And so only 10% of those people use Buy Now Pay laters compared with 30% with credit scores below 620. So 68% of buy now Pay later users have family incomes under $50,000 and only 32% of those with family incomes over $100,000. So they are targeting lower income, lower credit score users. And they can say that they're not, they can say that they're a safer alternative to buying on credit. And yes, I will, I will say, like the fact that you can buy groceries on, on this and pay for it interest free over four payments, I think that's, that's really great. Like, I think if you have an emergency come up and you've used your emergency fund and now money is extremely tight like that happens without an emergency fund for people. Like there are people who do all they can financially and still life hits them and there's, there's gotta be something, you know, available to put food on the table. And this is great for that. I fully support that. It's a slippery slope too because most people are not using it for that. Three quarters of people at least are not using that because I'm sure a lot of the people using it for groceries are not having that situation. But they are targeting those with the least amount of means and they are targeting them in the wrong ways because most of them are not essential purchases.

[Jill]

But the scary thing is, even if you're able to utilize this resource to be able to put food on the table, you've got to make sure that you've got that money then next week to pay for that buy now, pay later that you agreed to, as well as the money for next week's groceries. So it really can start to snowball, you know, to have it as a tool for an occasional. I can understand, but that's a circumstance that, you know, we need to look at what other resources are available to us as well than committing ourselves to the possibility of 34% interest if I'm not able to pay this back. If next week happens to be worse than this week.

[Jen]

Yeah. Hartman, this woman, she said it's so eye opening how much interest you're getting charged on for things you don't really need. It helped us when we needed it, but we ended up paying probably twice as much as we needed to.

[Jill]

That hurts. Yeah.

[Jen]

And had I been taught these things in school, I would have had a different outlook. Yeah.

[Jill]

And so almost more realistically still. Scary. There's this other story from the sun.com of a woman who racked up some $6,000 in debt through multiple different Buy now pay later programs. And I think it cited that it began with an $800Amazon purchase. Like, yeah, this is a hefty sum of money. What if I could break it up into four interest repayments? Awesome. And then one thing led to another, and this is just the pattern of how she preferred to shop. Wakes up two years later and has $6,000 worth of debt to repay. Had to make a lot of shifts, which is great that she did make those shows. She talked a lot about eating from home, like cooking at home and meal planning, because that is the way that we can cut our expenses and pay down.

[Jen]

She said the thing that woke her up to her overspending was when she bought a 600. $600 Dyson hair dryer and only used it once.

[Jill]

Ooh.

[Jen]

Yeah. That's what. That's what woke her up. And this was after she had spend $800 on Amazon purchases with a firm. And so she was using all these. So again, these underwriting practices. And so this is a big reason why the soft credit check won't report to your credit bureau. So you could over a bunch of different buy now, pay laters. Because affirm, Karna and afterpay are only the biggest ones. There's others out there too. You've got PayPal all, you know, other ones you wouldn't necessarily. The underwriting that they use wouldn't necessarily see what's going on with these other ones if they're only soft pulls. Yeah. And still, even if they did, it's so yeah, it's still clearly not stopping. That was from 2023. So like not that long ago. They've been around for a while before 2020. They just kind of entered the US in 2019. So they've been around long enough for these underwriting practices to be refined.

[Jill]

And again, these are not isolated experiences.

[Jen]

Yeah. We found another story of a woman on TikTok who also was able to rack up $32,000 of buy now, pay later debt. I have spent $32,196.23 on a firm in Klarna since 2022.

[Jill]

And the big question is, what did I purchase?

[Jen]

If you are new here, hi, my name is Diva and I am $107,000 in debt. And I am the Affirma Klarna girl. Yep. When I started this journey, I had $9,500 in debt to Affirma Klarna. I now have it under $3,000 and.

[Jill]

We are about to pay off eight.

[Jen]

Of those suckers next week. But what did I purchase? This is a question everybody always asks. Honestly, everything under the I have done groceries, I have purchased concert tickets, I have purchased Airbnb, I have gotten my car fixed on a firm in Klarna. All kinds of stuff. I think I've even gotten gift cards for random stuff. You can pretty much purchase anything you want almost on a farm in Klarna.

[Jill]

I did not know that you could get your car fixed.

[Jen]

I mean, so if you can pay online, you essentially. Because it's not even now the businesses that offer it, it's their payment processors. So all of these businesses are using like stripe or square or shop all these. And so the BNPLs work with them to then offer that service to the merchant. And the merchant will, will pay the fee, but not directly. So that's why even these small retailers will have it. But even if you don't pay online, they have cards, they all have cards now. And you can go in there and it sounds a lot, I keep wanting to, to tell the CEO of a firm. It sounds a lot like a credit card. It sounds like it. But you're just. Every transaction you make with that card is another closed end loan that you are taking out with that BNPL and you're pre approved for credit or pre approved for the loans before you go into the stores. That pre approval just sits there until you take the card into the store and you take out that closed end loan.

[Jill]

Yeah, this final story was really surprising to me. I mean There was a quick fix to it, but this woman ended up getting denied for a mortgage even though she had more than $100,000 saved. She had a full time job. They love to say a bright employment future. I don't know what that means. She's young and she has a degree.

[Jen]

She will tell people you have a bright employment future. You do.

[Jill]

Yes, but she was denied a home loan by banks. She did have student loan debt. So that was there. But, but the article states that wasn't the reason why. It had to do with this buy now, pay later amount that she still owed. And it was not a large amount.

[Jen]

So this one, this one is not a horrifying story because of, this is kind of like a bonus story, but it's not horrifying because the amount of debt she had, I think it's horrifying because of how small the debt was and what a big impact it was making in her life.

[Jill]

Yeah, you want to, you want to know how much money she owed? $16 in total. That's, that was the thing keeping her from getting a mortgage to buy her first home was A$16 after pay debt. And they're like, well, if you clear that then, then we'll, we'll affirm that you, not, not to use that word, but you can get this mortgage for $500,000. And so she paid off the $16 and was good to go.

[Jen]

She had to, she had to close that loan was the thing. It wasn't the amount, but it was the having that loan. And it clearly was not a pay in four because pay and fours are soft checks. And they don't go on your credit report. Now. Since the summer of 2025, buy now, pay later loans go on your credit report. And so we're seeing this in the US too, is that you will initially have a hard pull and then you do all the things with the house and then right before close, they do another poll just to make sure everything's copacetic. And that's what got her is she had done that. And I talked to real estate agents all the time where they're like, before they close on a house, they're like, don't buy any furniture, don't prepare for your home. Just don't do anything because like people taking out these furniture loans in the past had got them denied for their mortgage.

[Jill]

And I think a lot of people just don't know that. Right. So they're, you know, they're doing what they're doing.

[Jen]

Yeah. So this was thankfully cleared up. She had had other, other debt and so this kind of just threw her over, over the edge. But it is something to be in consideration of. It's not necessary, especially when you're trying to get a home or a car, something big like that, which are much better things to take out a loan for than whatever that $16 thing was paying for, which is more than, I mean more than a pay in four because it ended up on our credit report. And. But again, this was, this was Australia. So they, they may do credit reporting a smidge differently, but I heard the same stories from agents in the US this year. Wild. So be aware that it is not worth it to then like, because Jill knows that the last couple weeks before a home closing can be stressful.

[Jill]

It's so stressful.

[Jen]

She, she had some sad, sad days.

[Jill]

It was stressful. It's all done now. Whole thing's over.

[Jen]

So why do people do this to themselves? What a, what a great question that you are asking. I'm so glad that you had the foresight to ask this. Kind of like, kind of like this girl I found. Is anyone else like this with Klarna.

[Jill]

Or is it just me? So I'll buy a few things on Klarna, then when I get paid, I like, I'm like, oh, I'll just pay that off, no problem. I owe 100 credit card Klarna, no problem. Yet when I go to physically use my money to buy something, I'm like, oh, 30 quid.

[Jen]

Bit pricey.

[Jill]

I think I'll just wait.

[Jen]

When I say Clara's available, I'm like, oh, boom, six milliliters in the basket. I'll get free postage. It's the same money.

[Jill]

Why is it easier to pay off Kluana than it is to buy a physical item?

[Jen]

Like, what is wrong with me?

[Jill]

I can't be the only one that does this. What's even worse is I've always got.

[Jen]

The money to buy said items, but for some reason it just seems easier to clone of them. Like, yeah, what I think. Stop it.

[Jill]

Yeah, it does seem easy. And there's a lot of behavioral psychology going on to market these Buy now pay later apps to us. And so one of the reasons is certainly present bias. Another term for that would be temporal discounting. So this is the psychological tendency to value immediate rewards more highly than future rewards, even if the future reward is larger. This is like that marshmallow test that we saw going around on Instagram. Like, like you could have one marshmallow now or you can wait five minutes and have five marshmallows. And like a lot of the kids are just like eating the marshmallow that they can currently have. And that's kind of what we're doing with this. That we can get the thing right now for a small amount. And we want to reward ourselves immediately.

[Jen]

In the present and buy now, pay laters market to this. They sell budgeting, not debt. So they allow you to budget for your purchases. And budgeting sounds financially responsible, right? So that's how they're making it not feel like a loan, like not opening 20 closed end loans. If you were, if you were watching the YouTube video earlier, we showed this like on mute. This video of this account going through. God, it looks like a hundred different transactions. And so that's like a hundred different, like closed loans. It's insane.

[Jill]

It's so hard to keep track of the things that you're purchasing when that's happening too. Which can make your actual budgeting a lot more chaotic.

[Jen]

If you actually want to buy budgeting, we have a budgeting spreadsheet that we'll link to like 30% off to in the description or if you like an app. We love Monarch. We also have a discount code to that in the description. If you want to buy budgeting, those are budgeting, not klarna. The next is mental accounting. So people treat money differently depending on how it's framed. So paying in installments, it doesn't feel like debt, it just feels like another bill or subscriptions. And bills and subscriptions are totally normalized. So if we add another bill or subscription, then that's fine, that feels easier and it feels like less guilt and shame than making these impulse purchases.

[Jill]

We are so conditioned to subscriptions at this point. So yeah, when we can just have a small payment monthly, it feels very familiar to us. There's also anchoring happening. So that's when we, as the term would in sight, anchor ourselves to one type or piece of information. So we might see the initial price of $200, but it's broken up into four easy payments of $50. And so we are going to anchor ourselves to that lower number, not the total price. It feels more affordable, it feels more attainable. It's the same principle of something being sold to you for $9.99 instead of $10. Just supercharged that. Oh, it's not, it's. It's $9. We kind of anchor to that lower number, the one that feels less offensive to us when in reality we're going to be paying $200 for that thing and potentially even more if we miss a payment on it.

[Jen]

Yeah. And then lastly, all the videos on it and all this marketing on it yield social proof and normalization. If everybody else is using it, it's safer for me to use it. I'll start with the pay in for 0% interest. I'll just buy a little extra, but I'm not going to pay interest on it. And then inevitably snowballs into okay, it's safe to just pay a little bit of interest on. And it just get worse and worse and worse. And that brings us to the consumer debt piece that these buy now pay later companies take on. And it might lead you to believe that these business models are unsustainable. But like we said, they are supported primarily by merchant fees. And so they may take on more debt. But this is a normal thing in large companies. Look at the US government. We've taken on more debt every single year, the entire time we've been a country. And this is what companies do as well. They take on more debt, but they take on more profit. They take on these, these year over year increases. 20x since 2019, we're seeing 70% year over year, 55%, 46%. These more loans just mean more money for these companies. And they will continue to grow. I believe they will continue to grow. And so where does that leave us? Maybe you haven't used a buy now, pay later. Maybe you have. Where do we move forward as conscious consumers? And I think the biggest thing is to avoid them if you can. I think using a credit card for rewards and paying it off every month is much better. You could use cash, but I think it's impractical. You can still limit the amount that you pay and self budget when you're using a credit card. You know, like you're not going to be using this anchoring bias of being like oh my, you know, $200 purchase is actually only $50. Right. So we're not going to have that bias when we use a credit card. So I do think revolving credit is safer. Sorry, affirm.

[Jill]

Well yeah, because they're not under the same regulations at this point as credit card companies are under.

[Jen]

And that's one of the scariest parts of this.

[Jill]

So there's the cfbp, which stands for the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. This was created after the 2008 housing crisis to protect consumers from predatory financial practices. And they regulate credit card companies. They have tried to put in a bid to regulate buy pay later companies but as of right now, they are not so they're not answering to anybody.

[Jen]

The they had passed something in the last administration and then this administration decided not to enforce it with a lot. And it's also cut about 46% of funding to the CFP. So in addition to not regulating these BNPLs, they're also going to be cutting back their regulations on housing debt collection, like debt collection calls. The errors on your credit report that make it harder to get rent or a job. They're going to police those less the car loan like the sketchy car loan people. And then fees like these companies that charge overkill remittance fees, they're going to take away a lot of that oversight because of the budget cuts. So not to like leave it on like a down like level, but I think it's important to know that there does have to be a lot of self regulation and a lot of self protection when it comes to not just buying buy now, pay laters, which is what we're mainly talking about, but like really all loan and credit products right now.

[Jill]

Yeah, because it can look so helpful, it can look so innocent to us. It can be, you know, getting in on our anchoring and present bias and all of this and it can be easy to be sucked in. But it's important to remember how predatory it can become. And so I think some of the takeaways for us in this is to lean into some of that discomfort that what if we save for it now and pay for it later? That might be a fun little mantra.

[Jen]

What if we did pay for it all at once? Lean into the discomfort of paying for something all at once. And if it feels uncomfortable, listen to that. Maybe it's not what you value, maybe it's not what you truly want.

[Jill]

Maybe it's better to not get that Dyson air dryer, hair dryer that you're.

[Jen]

Only going to use one time into that discomfort for.

[Jill]

And then I think certainly being able to interrupt all of our impulse purchases, not, not perfectly, not every single one, but learning how to rein it in. And some of that includes creating that pause before we buy. Whether that's taking deep breaths or having questions that we're going to ask ourselves, or not having our credit card information auto loaded or not immediately pressing the buy now pay later program. That is like being in front of.

[Jen]

Your face when the person on social media is like, oh my gosh, sis, drop everything and run to Target and get this dress. Don't listen to her. She not really your sis or your bestie. Like stop and wait at least 24 hours, preferably 72 hours. Nothing is so important except for, like, the health and safety of your friends and family. Nothing is so important that you can't wait 72 hours. That's kind of like a rule I have as I say no initially, and then I give myself 72 hours to think about it.

[Jill]

Yeah, you do. You do say no to me all the time. And then you'll come back and be.

[Jen]

Like, actually, a full yes 100% of the time. And this is good for our yes people out there. If you're somebody who just says yes to everything, try this and just say no to everything. Oh, it's so uncomfortable. Lead into the discomfort. It's so refreshing. And then when you come back and you're like, actually, I can do that, or I do want to do that, the person knows it's a real, like, thoughtful yes.

[Jill]

Do you know what's not uncomfortable and is a super easy yes every single time.

[Jen]

100. Yes, initially, all the time.

[Jill]

The bill of the week.

[Jen]

This is the pillowy. That's right. It's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name is William.

[Jill]

Maybe you paid off your mortgage. Maybe your car died and you're happy.

[Jen]

To not have to pay that bill anymore. Duck bills.

[Jill]

Buffalo Bills.

[Jen]

Bill Clinton.

[Jill]

This is the bill of the week.

[Jen]

Hey, Jen and Jill. I literally just got off the phone with a billing department from the hospital. I had two kids that had to go to the ER for two different things in one week.

[Jill]

And we have a lot of medical bills coming in.

[Jen]

And so I called and didn't think that I would qualify for anything. I was just asking for the cash discount since our salary is around $100,000. I didn't think I would qualify for any financial aid. But he said because we have five people in our family, we qualified for financial aid. And from this one bill, that was $1,100, I cut it down to $400 just by a 12 minute phone call. I never would have learned about this stuff besides listening to money podcasts, especially yours. So I just wanted to say thank you because I literally just saved $700 from this bill. So thank you for all that you do. Thanks. Bye. Yes.

[Jill]

Amazing.

[Jen]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jill]

And that was one simple phone call.

[Jen]

12. That was 12 minutes of her time.

[Jill]

And she probably could have been multitasking while doing that, you know, with three kids.

[Jen]

Yeah, probably was. She probably was.

[Jill]

Probably was doing more than just that phone call. But it didn't even take that much time. This is amazing. And I think this is what can be the most shocking to us, is how these minor actions can be the ones that really propel us. Save us money, help us pay off debt, help keep us from going into debt. It's these small things like making the phone call, negotiating the thing, pausing an impulse purchase, whatever it is.

[Jen]

Yes.

[Jill]

And medical bills can be the most daunting. They're scary. They're usually wrapped up in emotion. It can be the number one thing that drives people into bankruptcy. It's overwhelming. Which is also one of the reasons that we did an episode on how to reduce your medical bills. So we will also link that in the description because that's just a good one to have on deck. Hopefully it was that episode that helped you Bill of the Week Caller to do this. But thank you so much for sharing. This is amazing celebrating with you, hoping that your child is doing better now.

[Jen]

Hope your babies are good. Yeah.

[Jill]

If you all are listening, have a bill that you want to share. If it has to do with reducing a medical bill or any type of bill or your name is Bill, you know what to do. Frugal friends podcast.com bill we can't wait for it.

[Jen]

Life insurance is one of those things you don't want to think about. But once I had people depending on me, it became non negotiable. I wanted to know that if something unexpected happened, my family wouldn't have to worry about covering bills or long term expenses.

[Jill]

Same. And honestly, getting life insurance felt intimidating at first. Until I found out about Fabric by Gerber Life. Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done today. Made for busy parents like you all online on your schedule, right from your couch. You could be covered in under 10 minutes with no health exam required.

[Jen]

You can get up to $1 million in coverage for less than a dollar a day. And since it's backed by Gerber Life, a company trusted by families for over 50 years, it gave me a lot of peace of mind.

[Jill]

Join the thousands of parents who trust fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just [e-mail] frugal that's meatfabric.com frugal M E E T fabric.com frugal policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions. And now it's time for the lightning round.

[Jen]

All right, if your last purchase was split into four payments, what would those payments be? You don't have to say what the purchase was but what would the payment.

[Jill]

Why not? Why can't we tell you?

[Jen]

You can.

[Jill]

You don't want to.

[Jen]

I can tell you what mine was. Okay. Yeah.

[Jill]

You go first.

[Jen]

Okay. Mine was Amazon. I'm not going to lie about that.

[Jill]

We don't want lying.

[Jen]

No lying. And let's see, how much did I spend? Oh, it's not going to tell me. It doesn't want me to know because it doesn't want me to. I still have time to cancel the order. All right, let's see. I could have been prepared with this. Divided by four. 2915. Okay, so four payments of 2915. What do you think I bought?

[Jill]

Ah man. This is $120 almost. Food, groceries?

[Jen]

No.

[Jill]

Okay. Something exercise related?

[Jen]

No.

[Jill]

Oh my goodness.

[Jen]

I know, right?

[Jill]

How well do I know you? Pants?

[Jen]

No. I did my clothing shopping last month so it was a refill and I bought the big one of shampoo. What I. Okay, so you see this hair?

[Jill]

I see it.

[Jen]

It's this beautiful. This does not take normal shampoo. Okay, so I got the super big 1000 mil. 3334 ounce. So the big mama jama of Olaplex shampoo. It's because it saves you money per ounce.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And it also has the. Once you get the big one, you get the. And all the other ones you just have to like. So if you're watching.

[Jill]

So it was one, one purchase.

[Jen]

No. It was also a workbook for Kai to practice his writing and then also a replacement airtag holder for Ellie's collar because she. She ate her last one. Not the air tag, just the thing that held it. So a bulk of it, $94 was this. 34 ounces of shampoo.

[Jill]

And just that. No conditioner, no 30. So how long will that last you?

[Jen]

It'll last me the rest of my life. No, it'll last a very long time. Like a year.

[Jill]

Yeah, you think so?

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Okay.

[Jen]

Because the 8 and a half ounce one, this is the first time I've purchased the big one because the smaller one is 376 an ounce while this big one is 278 an ounce. So I'm saving a dollar per ounce.

[Jill]

And it's funny because a lot of times we'll break up that payment by just getting the smaller ones.

[Jen]

Right.

[Jill]

So we are kind of, you know, oh, it would feel better to just get more and more 8 ounces. But you might end up doing the math on it and realize actually better to buy in bulk. It'll last me the whole year.

[Jen]

Yeah. Huh. So that's. That was my last one.

[Jill]

Okay. Mine was also from Amazon because I'm also not a liar. Oh, boy. Sorry, everybody. For 21.39. Well, no, it would have been four payments of 21.39. What do you think I bought? This is fun.

[Jen]

Was it something for work?

[Jill]

You don't get to ask. The questions are just guess. But lol. You're on to something.

[Jen]

Was it the. Was it the external hard drive?

[Jill]

No, I'm not counting stuff we bought on Frugal Friends money.

[Jen]

Okay? It was makeup.

[Jill]

No, I don't spend that much on makeup. Yeah, you're not wearing a lot of.

[Jen]

Makeup these days either.

[Jill]

These days. What did I used to wear? Wait.

[Jen]

She used to be so high maintenance, and now she's just let herself go.

[Jill]

The second we started deciding to do video, I'm like, no, forget about it.

[Jen]

I don't know. Soap.

[Jill]

I just gave you a hard time for spending, like, $100 on shampoo. You think I'm out here spending $85 on soap? No. You done? You done? Yeah, I'm done.

[Jen]

I'm done.

[Jill]

So how do I even describe these things? We are 82 lap tables.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Jill]

So, yeah, it's a cushion on the bottom and a hard table on the top with handles. Because I wanted something that solves this problem. Multiple problems that I have with one product. So, for instance, working at home because I don't go into the office every day, and now that we are in a smaller place, I don't have a dedicated office space. I'm primarily just working on the couch, but needing my computer propped up just a smidge. So having it for that. But then also. And here's where Eric and I are. 82 comes in. We are eating a lot of dinners on the couch. And so, I mean, I think a.

[Jen]

Lot of people do that who are not 82.

[Jill]

And we don't have a coffee table. So just sitting here on the couch. And then the couch is, you know, smooshy.

[Jen]

Also, one of their requirements for every couch is that it. It goes up, it reclines.

[Jill]

Ready? Watch this.

[Jen]

Like a tempur pedicure.

[Jill]

Here's a treat for our YouTube watchers. Watch me go. Wait, here we go.

[Jen]

Go the right way.

[Jill]

Here we go.

[Jen]

Look at her.

[Jill]

Just wait for it.

[Jen]

And just wait until she gets that little table like that she can have. Oh, look at my. This is how she's gonna be recording from now on once she gets that little table.

[Jill]

Happy Halloween, friends.

[Jen]

I am relaxed.

[Jill]

My feet, I think are higher than my heart, which they say is good for you. And this is so relaxing.

[Jen]

Okay. Anyway, that's the episode. You do your job. Okay.

[Jill]

Okay. Oh, my gosh. So.

[Jen]

So we. We got that.

[Jill]

And that's.

[Jen]

That's.

[Jill]

We're gonna be able to eat with it, work with it. Okay. Thanks everyone for being here and for listening. We are really loving reading your reviews. There's. There's a lot of them, but there's not enough of them. We'd love to also read more reviews.

[Jen]

Never enough.

[Jill]

Here's an example of a review that you could leave us. Like this one from Jessica. Five stars.

[Jen]

About the book.

[Jill]

It was an amazing book. I've been following the podcast since I read the book. It's well written and great wealth of information. Exactly what I needed. I started being more mindful of my spending habits and started a Roth IRA and investing. Thank you both for such helpful suggestions.

[Jen]

Oh, my gosh. It's not often that we get a review from somebody who read the book first and then is now listening to the podcast. So he. Thank you.

[Jill]

That's amazing, Jessica. And if you all are listening, watching, reading, whatever it is that you've done that intersects with us, your Frugal friends, please leave us a rating review. Subscribe all the things we're so grateful we're going to read these reviews.

[Jen]

Half of you watching this, we know from our analytics are not subscribed. You might not know you're not subscribed. So hit that subscribe button. It helps us us so much.

[Jill]

And tune into 21 awful money habits that will keep you broke or any of the other or any of the.

[Jen]

Others that we mentioned. Bye. See you next time. Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni.

[Jill]

What's the next thing you think you're gonna buy?

[Jen]

The conditioner you have to put.

[Jill]

You had to space it out.

[Jen]

Yeah, I don't need the conditioner. I actually use more conditioner than I do shampoo. Oh, wow. So I buy them at different times.

[Jill]

I use more shampoo than conditioner, but that's because we have different types of hair.

[Jen]

Yes, we do.

[Jill]

You know, the next thing I buy will probably be food. I need to go to the grocery store. I meant to go yesterday.

[Jen]

Oh, you mean like in general, like in advertising? I was thinking on Amazon.

[Jill]

No. No.

[Jen]

Oh, okay. Yeah, probably food.

[Jill]

Yeah, no, I'm hoping to be done with Amazon. There was quite a few Amazon purchases through this move as we get set up, but otherwise I'm not using it often.

[Jen]

I try not to.

[Jill]

I know.

[Jen]

Somebody told me to watch the Summer I Turned Pretty, and I was like, I can't.

[Jill]

I don't have Amazon Prime.

[Jen]

You don't have Amazon Prime? Sorry.

[Jill]

Yeah, well, it might be too dramatic for you.

[Jen]

I think it probably is. When too much work bogs you down.

[Jill]

Asana helps you handle it. That's because asana is where humans and AI coordinate. Work together.

[Jen]

AI makes it easier.

[Jill]

Easy to hand off routine tasks, streamline workflows, and keep everyone focused on the work that matters most. That's how work gets handled. That's Asana. Visit us at asana. Com. That's Asana. Com.