Loading summary
Transcript192 lines
- [00:01]
Savannah Guthrie
Hi everyone, it's Savannah Guthrie and Hoda Cotney from the Today Show.
- [00:03]
Hoda Kotb
Nobody does the holidays like today.
- [00:06]
Cara Lowenthal
From festive performances and great gift ideas to tips for the perfect holiday feast.
- [00:10]
Savannah Guthrie
Join us every morning on NBC and make today your home for the holidays.
- [00:15]
Hoda Kotb
This is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. Many people have questions about how to improve levels of happiness. Living a healthy lifestyle is one sure way of increasing happiness, and a good.
- [00:25]
Savannah Guthrie
Place to start is with your oral health.
- [00:28]
Hoda Kotb
Just a few small changes to your oral care routine, such as changing your toothpaste to Colgate Total, can lead to beneficial changes in your oral health. Colgate Total helps stop oral health problems like gingivitis and cavities before they start because preventing oral health problems is a lot easier than treating them. Be dentist ready and get colgate total@shop.colgate.com total the holidays are here at the Home Depot, so let's get to decorating. Find your perfect tree in our huge assortment of shapes, sizes and styles. Like the easy to assemble Jackson Noble fir with pre lit branches perfect for styling with all your favorite ornaments or the flocked starry light Frasier fir with over 1900 pre lit memory wire branches that keep their shape so it's ready right out of the box. Find the perfect tree now at the Home Depot and enjoy free delivery on most holiday decor subject to availability. See home depot.comdelivery for details at Navy Federal Credit Union every day is Veterans Day. Navy Federal serves more than 2 million veterans by providing the support they need to succeed financially. They offer members exclusive rates, discounts and perks. 45% of their employees are directly tied.
- [01:37]
Jen
To the military so Navy Federal understands.
- [01:39]
Hoda Kotb
The needs of the veterans they serve. That's right and Navy Federal donates to not for profits focused on veterans like the mission continues and rebuilding together. And remember that active duty veterans and their families can join Navy Federal. Learn more@navyfederal.org Veterans Navy Federal is insured by NCUA after investing billions to light up our network. T Mobile is America's largest 5G network. Plus right now you can switch keep your phone and we'll pay it off up to $800. See how you can save on every plan vs Verizon and at&t@t mobile.com Keep and switch up to four lines via virtual prepaid card. Allow 15 days qualifying unlocked device credit service ported 90 plus days with device and eligible carrier and timely redemption. Required card has no cash access and expires in six months.
- [02:29]
Jen
Episode 464 Money Lies Women believe with Cara Lowenthal.
- [02:39]
Hoda Kotb
Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast where you'll learn to save money, embrace simplicity, and live a richer life.
- [02:48]
Savannah Guthrie
Here are your hosts, Jen and Jill.
- [02:53]
Jen
Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. My name is Jen.
- [02:56]
Savannah Guthrie
My name is Jill.
- [02:57]
Jen
And today we are sharing an interview that we did with Carl Lowenthal, who is the creator of UNF your mind. Your brain. Your brain, yes. UNF your brain. That is not the full way to say it, but there is an asterisk if you read it. And I was so excited for this interview because Cara studies history. And the history of why we believe what we believe, not because it's normal, but because it is, has been carefully crafted, which when I'm saying it out loud, kind of sounds conspiracy theory is. But it's not this intentional, devious plan. It's just the way culture has assimilated so that we. There are things that we as women believe about money that are untrue because we've felt that way or been conditioned that way over 400 years.
- [04:05]
Savannah Guthrie
And there could be some more malicious, devious planning by those most in power. But we are primarily looking, with Cara, at the ways in which this has then impacted us both implicitly and explicitly. Some of the lies that. And you'll hear me as we go through, like, realizing where I even find myself. I think it brought a lot to the surface for me as well. But then what to do from there? As always, we don't want to just leave you with problems without ever looking at the solutions. So you can also expect that as well.
- [04:39]
Jen
But first, this episode is brought to you by December 29th. We're already looking ahead to after Christmas. Don't get me wrong, I'm still going to be looking in your houses, at your Christmas tree, looking at your lights. I'm here for it. But let's plan for a couple weeks ahead. On December 29th, Jill and I will be hosting a free live meal planning class that is only free for people who preorder our new book buy what you love without going broke. So for all of our pre orders, we will so essentially 25 bucks, right? So we are going to be sitting down with you and over an hour, we are going to help you craft and form a one year meal plan. And we're not just talking dinners, we're talking snack, snacks, lunches, breakfast. We're going to be talking about it all as well as incorporating the meal prep component to it. So if you want us to help you come up with a 1 year 20, 25 meal plan for the year, head to buy what you love book.com, preorder the book and then submit the form on Buy what you love book.com and you will get access to that free class.
- [05:53]
Savannah Guthrie
Oh, it's going to be a perfect thing just before the new year. You're going to be so glad and thankful to yourself. Your future self will be so grateful that you not only have a book coming in the mail that's going to help you with your spending decisions and your money, but you're also going to have this class just ahead of the new year to get you ready for everything you're going to eat. And that's going to save you money.
- [06:17]
Jen
We love that.
- [06:18]
Hoda Kotb
Woo.
- [06:19]
Savannah Guthrie
Buy what you love book.
- [06:20]
Jen
Com so Cara Lowenthal. She is a New York Times bestselling author of Take Back youk Brain. She is an Ivy League women's rights lawyer turned master feminist coach and the founder of the New School of Feminist Thought. And she has a completely well rounded look that is based on fact and not opinion on the way that we look at money and really just things in general as women. She's not so many. When I hear the word feminist, sometimes I can think abrasive. And that is not Cara at all. It is. You're just going to love everything she says and it's going to make you think about, yes, there are differences that are in my life because of my gender, but that empowers me to take that knowledge and make the changes that are right for me, not the changes that maybe somebody else thinks I should. So it's a fantastic interview.
- [07:30]
Savannah Guthrie
Yeah, just greater understanding of ourselves and the environment in which we operate in which, you know, that's kind of the whole goal of this whole podcast. The book we just wrote is to just help us understand ourselves better and then make more informed decisions as a result. So let's get into it.
- [07:51]
Jen
Cara, welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. I am so excited for this conversation. We're so excited to have you on.
- [07:58]
Cara Lowenthal
I'm so excited to be here and to have learned that you can get a hot pink cover for your microphone, which I'm doing immediately after this call.
- [08:05]
Savannah Guthrie
We don't often utilize video, so people don't know this is mostly for us, but we do.
- [08:11]
Cara Lowenthal
We've got a neon hot pink microphone.
- [08:13]
Savannah Guthrie
Frugal Friend screen behind us, hot pink windscreen, and we are ready for this conversation. I'm so very excited to talk with you, learn from you, introduce you to our audience. So to kick us off, you know, just the real softball here. Can you share from your own research, your years of kind of understanding this kind of topic? What are some of the differences that you see between men and women when it comes to both having and wanting money?
- [08:44]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah, I think that's, that's like 12 questions. That's kind of the whole thing.
- [08:48]
Savannah Guthrie
There you go. And buckle up.
- [08:50]
Jen
Yeah, we're here for it.
- [08:51]
Cara Lowenthal
Start where it began. With what? Well, I guess. Let me ask you. I'm gonna ask you the question. I can still. We could start with socialization. We could start with history. Which one would you like to start with?
- [09:00]
Savannah Guthrie
Oh, history.
- [09:01]
Jen
Yeah, history. Let's start with history.
- [09:03]
Savannah Guthrie
Begin at the beginning, okay.
- [09:05]
Cara Lowenthal
At the beginning of time, there was no currency. And then Adam Smith came along and invented capitalism. So obviously this can vary depending on where you live. But we are broadcasting from America. Probably most of our listeners are people who live in the US or maybe in Western Europe. And so the legal regime in Europe, England, then the US in the last four to 600 years hasn't been around quite as long were legal and economic regimes in which most of the time, for most of that history, women did not have full financial rights. Right. So things could vary country to country a little bit. And there are two kind of big picture types of, kind of, types of legal systems that were used. But regardless, in a lot of places, if you were a woman, for most of our kind of modern and pre modern history, in the last couple of thousands of years, you couldn't own your own property, right? You could not have a job except potentially with the permission of your husband or your father. You could not make a legal contract by yourself. You were not a legal entity, especially if you were married. And almost everybody was married. So in some places there were kind of carve outs. Like maybe if you were a widow, you could then like own your inheritance if you didn't have male sons who owned it instead. Right. Maybe you could inherit from your father if you had no brothers. But these were like the exceptions, right? Most people had a lot of siblings. Most almost, you know, marriage was fairly compulsory for most people. So most women just didn't have full legal and economic rights. You couldn't, you know, you didn't have the right to your own money, you didn't have a legal right to it. You didn't have the right to make contracts, you didn't have the right to start a business, you know, the right to start a job. So in that system, the way women interact with money is your father or your brother or your husband or whoever, like if you have any money, gives it to you, right? And so what you are responsible for is just managing that little bit of money, right? So this is a sort of like, you know, a thrifty housewife, like you are responsible for the purse of the house, which obviously could be almost nothing if you are a medieval peasant and you don't really have any money. Or it could be quite a lot if you're a member of the aristocracy and you are given a large allowance by your husband to manage an estate. But either way you're not earning, keeping the money, you're not in charge of the money, right? This is obviously, you know, if you have historians listening to this, this is a 70,000 foot view. But it's important because what we see now in the way that men and women are socialized around money still has echoes of all of that conditioning, right? If you. There are media studies done that I talk about in my book Take Back youk Brain that, that demonstrate that, you know, media, financial literacy, media aimed at women is all about budgeting, being thrifty, right? Very similar to dieting, like restrict and don't be such a, you know, spendthrift, frivolous lady. And don't buy so many shiny things. Don't buy your avocado toast and your lattes. Like that stuff's gendered. Are we talking to men when we say don't spend money on lattes and avocado toast? Like not mostly, right? We're really talking about women. So we still get this emphasis on like being good with money for a woman is being thrifty, being responsible, saving, budgeting and then financial literacy media aimed at men is about building wealth, investing, making money, you know, taking appropriate risk. And so I think we see like that history is not far behind us, right? We're still getting socialized in it. And I think people are shocked to hear this sometimes. Like until 1974, which is my mother was alive and well, you could not, as a woman get a credit card in every state in the country without a man co signing it and guaranteeing it. And until 1983, I think for business loans.
- [12:59]
Savannah Guthrie
88, 88, 1988, it was even sooner.
- [13:03]
Cara Lowenthal
I was seven.
- [13:03]
Savannah Guthrie
Just one year before we were born.
- [13:05]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah, I was seven years old. So like I am the breadwinner in my family. I own a business, I'm an entrepreneur. I retired my husband, the idea that he, who has never even looked at a spreadsheet, probably he was a lawyer, would have to like come to the bank with me. To approve that I could have a loan for my multimillion dollar business is completely bananas. Right?
- [13:25]
Savannah Guthrie
Like bananas. What a beautiful word to choose.
- [13:27]
Cara Lowenthal
Yes, but that's so recent. Right. And so we. I see that a lot in my work as a coach that women are. Women's thoughts about money are usually like, I don't understand it. It's too complicated. I'm irresponsible with money. I hear that all the time. And when I ask what that means, it just means, oh, if I were responsible, I'd be saving more. I wouldn't be spending. That's not how men are taught to think about money. Right. And that's not their big concern. Usually it's like that I'm irresponsible with it. It's like, I should make more of it. Maybe it's not. Patriarchy's not good for anybody. Like, this gender split isn't great for men either, but I think particularly for women. And that's why I love the title of your book. It's like, yes, frugal friends, but you're talking about how to buy what you love without going broke. Like, it's not just being frugal, like, in and of itself to prove you're virtuous enough is not. You're not going to get a gold star from the universe that you've finally been an abstemious enough woman.
- [14:23]
Savannah Guthrie
It's a sell them what they want, give them what they need kind of situation over here with both of our podcast title and our book.
- [14:32]
Jen
Yeah, it is so, like, crazy when you're saying all this stuff. It's like, yes, we see it. And then we kind of see some people shifting, right. Where women are trying to be like in the socially male dominated, make more money, invest. And then there's also like mindset things that come up with that, that these women are like, what do you see when. What are the difficulties when women try to like, shift that narrative?
- [15:06]
Cara Lowenthal
Well, I think women in general are not socialized to take risks, Right. So women are socialized into something that I call over responsibility, which means we are socialized to consider ourselves responsible for anything and everyone around us and to think that we need to control everything and everyone around us and always be getting good outcomes or we've done something wrong. And so this makes women often quite risk averse because if you take a risk, then you might not be able to control the outcome and get the correct outcome and be perfect at it. And so it seems safer to not even try. So it's like, you know, Unwillingness to invest because it feels safer, quote, unquote, to just put the money in a savings account because at least then there's no risk that you'll lose it. But of course, you are passing up a huge risk of building it right, of it, of it growing. And men are not socialized the same way around risk. Now, we also know that there's studies showing that women actually make better investment managers than men. And one of the rationales is that they are better risk judgers of risk. Which I think shows that like women can, if they are, if they can shift their mindset enough to allow for some risk, it's like you're going to get the best of both worlds. But the best investment managers aren't the people who are like, I'm taking no risks, I'm just putting the money in a savings account. Which is like how I think women are socialized. And it ties into also the socialization that women still get around math and numbers, right? Being more like men. Boys are better at math, men are better at math. And so, and because women are socialized to be such kind of perfectionists and to always think that like, they're not smart enough, they don't understand things, anything that's at all challenging. Which like, yeah, math sometimes is. So are a lot of things, like learning about the invest investments in the stock market. It's a whole area of knowledge. It can be intimidating at first, but women are much more likely to internalize that. And so they have that feeling that anyone might feel of like, oh, this is complicated and I gotta learn a bunch of stuff. And they internalize that as like, oh, there's something wrong with me, I'm dumb, I don't understand this. It's too hard. It makes me feel anxious and bad about myself, so I'm just gonna ignore it.
- [17:11]
Savannah Guthrie
This is really helpful, I think, the distinction that you made between managing versus earning and kind of the history behind that, because we do still see, and I think this in some ways has been a bit of a shocker to people as we've talked about personal financ, that women do primarily manage the finances of the household. But you're kind of connecting the dots there on why that is and potentially even why we might have a bit more of a scarcity mindset when it comes to money because we're just managing this amount and maybe not necessarily focusing on where can we earn. That's not to say that. I mean, a lot of the women who listen to our podcasts are earners for their Families, but yet kind of helps to understand why maybe this connection to how much can I get for how little and how can I stretch this dollar and how can I be as traditionally frugal as possible, maybe even borderline cheap? So I think that connection is really helpful and I think potentially could blend into something. I know you've talked about a bit, just like the lies that women might be believing around money. What are you seeing with that?
- [18:30]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah, so I want to talk about the lies, but I think what you're saying is important. Like, women have always historically managed the household budget, right? But the question is, like, what about the rest of the money decisions? Like, who's making the decisions about the investments? Who's making the decisions about how much you spend on a house, who's making the decisions about the big picture expenses, the car, the school tuition, whatever, right? Are you having an equal say in conversation about those things or are you assuming, assuming, you know, my husband probably has our retirement taken care of. Like, and that's not, you know, even feminists can, can be in this headspace because of that socialization we get and because we're so socialized to always know the right answer and always do things perfectly. And I see like, even among entrepreneurs, but especially obviously among people who have more salary jobs, women are socialized to like, do a good job and you'll be rewarded and someone will give you the money and then like, you manage it, right? And like, that's the mindset shift we have to switch, which is like, you're responsible for creating whatever amount of wealth or money you want to have, whether you're in a salary position or you're an entrepreneur or you're managing a household budget and you're a stay at home mom. Like, whatever it is, you have to have, you know, create an empowerment around that so that you aren't kind of emotionally in the state of like, oh, somebody else decides what I get and then I just get to manage it. Which is kind of how women are socialized. Be grateful for what you have, don't want more. Right? So that's one of the three money lies, actually, is that wanting money or wanting to build wealth or caring about money is morally wrong and means something bad about you. And this is not just gender. This is really actually more of a like religious puritan kind of influence on our culture. But I think since women are socialized to kind of generally believe that they are always doing something wrong and always suspect and always probably being bad, it just, like, I think it hits us harder you know, and we see a lot more criticism of women who are financially ambitious than we do of men who are financially ambitious. Right. The studies showing that having children. Right. Will decrease a woman's earning and increase a man's earnings because now he's seen as, like, a provider and he'll get a raise without even trying. So that is. So one of the money lies is that it means something bad about you. And I always just like to. This is where I also like to go to history, because I just like to be like, let's think about where this came from. From, like in Western culture was a bunch of lavishly, ridiculously wealthy Christian cardinals and popes living in palaces, telling all the peasants that wanting money meant that they were bad, that that was sinful. Like, meanwhile, they are like wearing velvet, living in marble with, you know, a sumptuous lifestyle. So, but this is just in the water. Like, it's all around us. And we just assume that it's true. And we don't look at where does it come from. Right. Who told you that that was bad and how do they benefit from it? Right. If the rich men in society are telling everybody else, women, other marginalized people, people of color, that like, wanting money is bad and sinful, but they seem to want and have a lot of money, like, something's not adding up here. Right?
- [21:46]
Savannah Guthrie
Right. These two don't go together.
- [21:48]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah, right. Like, who benefits from this? So that's a lie. Well, that's one lie. One of we kind of spoke a bit about is the idea that money is men's business, that men are somehow more capable or more knowledgeable or more informed about it. And I mean, it may be true that men are receiving more useful instruction from their family or colleagues about it, but that's an accident of socialization. It's not inherent. And any, you know, woman with a brain can read a book and learn about it, too. So it's that, but that sort of idea, right? And we link money, masculinity, Right. Why would we think it's emasculating for a woman to earn more than her man, than her husband? Because we've somehow connected these two things that it would be that somehow virility and money go together, masculinity and money. So it's like very deeply integrated. Right. You may not think that you think money's for men, but do you feel comfortable out earning your husband? Do you feel comfortable, right, being the primary breadwinner, retiring your husband? Do people say to you, like, oh, is he. Is he comfortable with that. Is it weird for him? Why are we asking that? Right? Nobody ever asked a woman who's staying home with the kids, is it weird for you that your husband makes more money than you? But people ask men that ask me how? I know as the primary breadwinner in.
- [22:57]
Jen
My relationship, oh dang.
- [22:59]
Cara Lowenthal
And my husband's like, anytime somebody at a hotel or a restaurant talks to him, he's like, she's the bank. I'm just here to like carry her bags. Like, he is not at all bothered, but people think he will be. And like that tells us something, right? So that's two and then the third.
- [23:14]
Savannah Guthrie
One is Monarch is the modern way to manage your money and can be super helpful when trying to stick to a budget. We especially like it for the ways it can help you collaborate and get on the same page with your partner.
- [23:26]
Jen
Monarch is the top rated all in one personal finance app because Monarch helps you make smart money moves. And right now, listeners of this show can get 30% off your first year by going to monarchmoney.com Frugal Monarch is.
- [23:39]
Savannah Guthrie
Easy to use and allows you to see all your finances in minutes and track your spending patterns at a glance. You can also share your account with your partner or even a financial advisor so you can have the clarity and peace of mind your money deserves.
- [23:51]
Jen
After trying out Monarch for myself, I get why it's the top rated personal finance app and right now listeners of this show will get 30% off your first year when you go to monarchmoney.com frugal that's M O N A R C H M o n e y.com frugal to get 30% off your first.
- [24:09]
Hoda Kotb
Year even if you think it's a bit overhyped. AI is suddenly everywhere from self driving cars to molecular medicine business efficiency if it's not in your industry yet, it is coming fast. But AI needs a lot of speed and computing power, so how do you compete without costs spiraling out of control? Time to upgrade to the next generation of the cloud, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, or oci. OCI is a blazing, fast and secure platform for your infrastructure, database and application development, plus all your AI and machine learning workloads. OCI costs 50% less for compute and 80% less for networking, so you're saving a pile of money. Thousands of businesses have already upgraded to oci, including MGM Resorts, Specialized Bikes and Fireworks AI. Right now, Oracle is offering to cut your current cloud bill in half if you move to OCI. For new US customers with minimum financial commitment, offer ends December 31, 2024 see if your company qualifies for this special offer@oracle.com strategic that's oracle.com strategic it's better over here now. @t mobile get four 5G phones on us and four lines for 25 a line per month when you switch with eligible trade ins, all on America's largest 5G network. Minimum of 4 lines for 25 per line per month with auto pay discount using debit or bank account, $5 more per line without autopay plus taxes and fees and 10 device connection charge phones via 24 monthly bill credits for well qualified customers. Contact us before canceling entire account to continue bill credits or credit stop and balance on a required finance agreement due bill credits end if you pay off devices early. CT mobile.com proving trust is more important than ever, especially when it comes to your security program. Vanta helps centralize program requirements and automate evidence collection for frameworks like SoC2, ISO 27001, HIPAA and more. So you save time and money and build customer trust. And with Vanta, you get continuous visibility into the state of your controls. Join more than 8,000 global companies like Atlassian Flow Health and Quora who trust Vanta to manage risk and prove security in real time. Now that's a new way to GRC. Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta.comspecial. that's vanta.comspecial for $1,000 off the holidays are officially here at the Home Depot, which means it's time to deck the halls and your home with festive cheer. If you're on the hunt for the perfect tree, we've got you covered. Explore our huge assortment of trees in all shapes, sizes and styles designed to fit any holiday vibe and every holiday budget. Like the Jackson Noble Fir, it's not only super easy to assemble, but it also comes Pre lit with 1200 color changing bulbs and multiple lighting functions. Or maybe the flocked starry light Frasier fur is more your style. With over 1900 pre lit memory wire branches that hold their shape, this tree's ready to shine right out of the box. Whether it's trees, wreaths or twinkling lights, we've got everything you need to make your home holiday ready. So shop now@home depot.com and enjoy free delivery on most holiday decor subject to availability. See home depot.comdelivery for details.
- [27:39]
Cara Lowenthal
The deck is stacked and so you may as well not even try. So in a It's sort of like the first two or more, I think, believed by women who aren't aware of this like conditioning. But then the third one, I actually see more come up in women who have some awareness of the conditioning which is sort of like, oh wow, I see how messed up all this is. And so I'm not going to be able to get ahead or succeed. It is an old boys network. People don't believe that women can be their financial advisor and manage their money or you know, I'm not going to be able to find a, you know, men are socialized this way. So I'm not going to be able to find a partner who will be comfortable with this or whatever. Right. And this is really a through line in all my work, not just about money. That one of the most insidious ways that socialization makes us passive is by making us believe that kind of everyone, everywhere has these sexist beliefs. So there's sort of no point, right? It's like if your boss is sexually harassing you, there's like no point in trying to get another job because not only are you probably bad and stupid at an imposter and can't get one, but all the bosses will be like this. If you're in a relationship and someone is, you know, with somebody who's very in a toxic masculine mindset and is treating you badly, well, what can you expect from straight men? They're all socialized this way. They're all terrible. There's no point. Find the best, settle for the best you can get. So you actually see this come up a lot. And I think that that's the, in some ways the biggest lie because that's not true. Like there are bosses who won't promote you if you're a working mom and there are bosses who will. And you have to work on your belief that there's better spaces out there for you. There are partners who are going to be emasculated if you make more money. There are partners who won't. But you have to believe that in order to believe that you can end that relationship and find someone like my husband who's thrilled to be retired and travel around with you, like if that's what you want, right? So I think that is like one of the sneakiest. I will say I didn't put this in the book, but I think it's really relevant for this conversation. Especially if you have more high earning women and women who are focused on building wealth. There's and you know, when we split things up in this binary gendered way, it's bad for everybody. And one of the ways That I think it is detrimental that even like feminist or high performing women don't really think about is they don't question their own socialization, that if they're straight women specifically, that a man needs to be ambitious and high earning and like match them in order to be a legitimate partner. So I coach a lot of high powered women who have trouble, quote unquote in dating because they're traveling the world and being the CEO or speaking at the conferences, whatever, and then they're like, well, I mean, my partner has to make at least as much money as I do. Why? Why does he need to make at least as much money as you do? Is it to afford your lifestyle? Oh, no, I can afford my lifestyle. I can support him and a whole family. Okay, why does he need to do that? Well, you know, so like that I want someone I can really respect. Like, okay, that's, that's patriarchy right there. Like, why does a man have to make a certain amount of money for you to respect him, see him as an equal, see him as worthy enough? I think other people will see him as valuable enough as your partner. So there's like internalized sexism that, you know, high earning, high achieving, financially literate, financially savvy women have to do too. It's not. If that's really what you want, fine, there's nothing wrong with that. But I just want you to like question that for yourself. Like, I specifically did not want someone like that. I have a very demanding job. I work a lot, I've got, we have step kids. Like, I need my husband to be able to be the primary caregiver for his kids and I want him to be able to have a more flexible schedule because I work a lot and I have to travel. And that's, I'm not saying that's the right way, but I do think there's a lot of internalized sexism that high powered women don't see in themselves around their financial choices. And any, you know, financial expert will tell you that who you marry your partner with is one of the biggest financial decisions you're ever going to make in your life. So yeah, like looking at your own thought process matters.
- [31:33]
Jen
I don't think it's the same. But something that we have always said on the show is marry rich or marry capable.
- [31:41]
Savannah Guthrie
One or the other.
- [31:42]
Jen
Both are good, both are fine.
- [31:45]
Savannah Guthrie
Make sure it benefits you in some.
- [31:47]
Jen
Way, but don't marry somebody who is neither.
- [31:50]
Cara Lowenthal
I think is our someone who you are not interested in or has nothing.
- [31:55]
Savannah Guthrie
Yeah, I can appreciate all that you're describing with these lies. And honestly, I'm getting a little bit sweaty because I am noticing some of these things in myself. And, Cara, I am a licensed clinical social worker. I am supposed to know a ton about socialization and how that happens. And I think you are kind of unveiling even more. And I think, you know, we talk about money mindset all the time. And I think what you're describing here with exploring the ways in which we've been socialized as women and men as it relates to money is another layer of our money mindset. I think I, alongside my husband, we both earn money for our household, and yet I will still. And sometimes it's in jest, but obviously it's still there. I will say how, like, Eric bought this and he bought that. Even though we make about an equal amount in many years, I have made more, and I still will, like, give him the credit for having, like, bought these different things. Again, some of it is I'm being funny about it, but obviously it's there for me. And I will still, I guess, behave and think in some of the ways that you are describing because of where we've come from in history that I'm not even fully aware of. And I think this kind of then leads to one of the questions and you've touched on this. But I'm curious if there's more that you would have to say about it in regards to when we find ourselves operating out of these socialized ideas that aren't even true for us individually, like believing that men are the ones who earn and we're the ones who manage. Even when we are both earning and managing, like, some of the lies you're talking about, I see them in myself. Even though they're not actually true for me on an individual level, they're not actually my experiences. Any ideas on how we can kind of bring some congruence there and how that might help our finances?
- [34:00]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah, so I love congruence. Totally a licensed social worker therapist word. But. And I think this is totally. I mean, I have a. We just finished doing a beta round of a program for therapists, because this kind of socialization, deep socialization stuff is just not covered in a lot of places. So it's, like, completely normal. I just want to say, like, just being a. Being a therapist, being a social worker, being a coach, doesn't mean that you, you know, have uncovered all this stuff. And I'm always uncovering still, like, becoming a stepmom. I thought I had done all this Work. And I didn't originally want children. I thought I'd really divested from that. And then I'm like, all these, all thoughts about like parenting are coming up that are totally from my socialization. So I focus a lot on kind of cognitive mindset work. So my advice on this is always about coming up with thoughts. You can believe now that you're going to practice to rewire your thought patterns. That's something I get into a lot. In my book take back your brain, I have a podcast called unf your brain. We can't say the whole word here, but you can all fill that in. There is an asterisk in the title when you type it in. And so I talk a lot there about how to do this. But I think the thing that's really different about my approach from maybe other money coaches people may have heard from. Well, number one, I'm not just a money coach, but is that I don't believe in like manifestation and affirmation. So I am not going to say like what you do is you look in the mirror every morning, you say, I am a gazillionaire until you manifest it. I really, I just, like, that's like, that's like telling people what you do if you want to run a marathon is you just walk out your door and run 26 miles and believe you can do it. Like that's not what happens. You have to train your body for a marathon and you have to train your brain to think differently. Your brain is part of your body.
- [35:44]
Savannah Guthrie
Thank you.
- [35:45]
Jen
Yes.
- [35:46]
Cara Lowenthal
So when you're starting, it might be thoughts that are like, it's possible that I am sometimes irresponsible with money and sometimes responsible with money. Like really, even though I don't personally even believe there's such a thing as irresponsible with money. That's a made up word and analysis. You get to decide what that means. When we're talk, when we're talking about like building a new belief, we just gotta start really small. So it might look like that. It might look like it's possible that I can learn about the stock market or. You know, I used to think that I couldn't understand criminal procedure law, and now I do. So I can probably understand the stock market also, like whatever. It's very individualized to the person. But the way we create that congruence is just shifting the way that we think. But I think that the reason that I love the historical and anthropological perspective that I think is missing from other kind of coaching frameworks Is that it just helps you understand where these thoughts came from. I think a lot of when I came into the coaching world, the message was sort of like, it doesn't matter where the thoughts came from. You just need to change them. And that's true. But the human mind just has its own weird biases. And one of them, I think, is that in the absence of another credible explanation, it will just tend to believe that something is true. So, like, it's like, I must be having this thought because it's true. Nobody can give me another explanation, so it must be true. That's why I'm thinking it. But when you can look at it and be like, oh, I was specifically taught that explicitly, implicitly, by the whole culture around me. Oh, now I. You just. You get that little bit of distance that, you know, as a therapist is like, the first step to any shift.
- [37:17]
Savannah Guthrie
Right.
- [37:17]
Cara Lowenthal
It's like not being so identified with your thought as true. So all the kind of usual cognitive techniques you might use, like, looking for evidence that's contrary to what you believe, looking for examples in your life of shifts or skills that you can apply to this. Like, it's just cognitive work to, like, change it little bit by little bit.
- [37:36]
Jen
Yeah. I have found that in looking for that replacement belief, like, to change how I feel about anything, really. Like, it does take time to train myself to look for it. Like, that's the biggest thing. Like, I'm sitting in this negative thought about how much money I make and then ignoring the fact that, oh, somebody just said that they would pay me to, like, write this. Right. Like, and, like, coming the same day. So clearly there are other things on other days that are coming that I'm just not paying attention to. So, yeah, like, it is such a. Like a training.
- [38:20]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah. Your brain is a selection bias. Right. So your brain or confirmation bias, really. So your brain will only bring to your attention what matches what it already believes. Right. This is why, like, your partner can get their haircut and you don't notice for three weeks because your brain is, like, filling in the gaps until you happen to, like, all of a sudden get it. Yeah, same thing. Like, your brain will look for what. And yeah, you're right. It has nothing to do with money. If I coach somebody who thinks, like, I'm too old to find a partner. Right. They will constantly see all the people finding partners when they're young and see all the people who are older and single, and they will, like, not even register the newspaper article about so and so finding love at 80. Right. Your brain just filters it out. So that's why looking for. I mean, I'm often given people giving people coaching homework that's like, okay, go home and make a list of all the times that you made a decision with money that did work out. Because people. Because people come in and they're like, I'm so irresponsible with money. Here's my list of evidence of how I've made bad financial choices. And yes, we're going to work on changing that thought. But also, let's at least get a real picture. Like, what are all the good financial choices you made, quote, unquote good. So, yeah, absolutely. It's like that slow retraining of your brains, gathering of additional evidence. Like, you're literally. I mean, just think about how hard it was to, like, learn to read. You're like, literally teaching your brain how to think a new way. It takes a minute.
- [39:34]
Jen
Yeah. What? So when women come to you and they have this, like, third lie, like, I feel like that's more where I lean, where I feel like the chips are truly, like, stacked against us as women. Like, where's the. What are, like, some tips or advice that you give the, you know, people lying on the other side?
- [39:59]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah. So I think there's two important pieces of it. One is exact what we just talked about in terms of evidence gathering. Like, okay, is it impossible for a female entrepreneur to succeed? Like, go home and Google, right? There are obviously women entrepreneurs who succeed. And you can find stories of people who succeeded. Yes. Some of them had trust funds and some of them had $10 in their bank account. That's true. Regardless of gender. Right. So part of it is like, what I find is that looking for evidence is important, even if it's true that it's a minority. Because what I find, what I have found anecdotally, I don't have a name for this phenomenon. Maybe there is one is that people, well, people who are really resilient and want to go out and do something, don't have to believe that it's easy or that it's guaranteed even. They just have to believe that's not impossible. Where people get stuck is when it's like, well, it's hopeless or it's impossible. So I can't do anything. I think that humans, like, the most poisonous thought to humans is sort of, I can't do anything about this. Like, I'm, you know, I'm powerless. That's what creates that, like, freeze and overwhelm response. When the story is like, oh, this can be done. It might be hard, but I'm up for the challenge. That's a very different kind of reaction. So part of it is that the other important piece though is the kind of traditional mindset piece of like, why do you want this thing anyway? Right. If you're telling yourself, well, I need to make this amount of money to feel good about myself, then yes, it's going to feel like very overwhelming and your brain is going to fixate on how it might not be possible. It's like you've made the stakes way too high. And so we have to understand why we're trying to get to a goal and why it matters and what meaning we're making of it. But if you've cleaned all that up, then I think just the evidence that it is possible is all you really need to train your brain on. But you have to do that first step as long as you're trying to get. You know, if you associate money with emotional safety, with acceptance, with self pride, with proving yourself to your parents, with whatever, that's going to stymie you more times than that. Not everybody, some people are able to run on revenge and shame, but those people don't. Constant doses Elon Musk like that works for. But I always say to people in coaching, it's like, well, you came to coaching, so obviously that doesn't work for you.
- [42:14]
Jen
Yeah.
- [42:15]
Cara Lowenthal
Need some other kind of fuel for you.
- [42:17]
Jen
Yeah. I mean, and those things what you just listed off, I was like, that sounds like a whole lifetime of navigating like those things because they are just so deep seated.
- [42:30]
Cara Lowenthal
And we live in a capitalist society in which there are ways in which your physical safety is financially related. So that part is true. And that still won't. Doesn't determine your feelings. Like, there are people with what. Usually there are people with way less of their bank account than you who feel fine about what's there. And your thought is, I'm about to die. Right. Because of like your expectations, your assumptions, your, you know, attachment to a specific standard of living or whatever. Right. It'll often turn out when I coach people that I'm like, okay, if you did lose your job, like, let's literally go all the way through, then what? And often most of the time the answer is like, well, yeah, of course I could go stay on my mother's couch and look for a new job and build it back. Right. So it's the sort of you have to like play it all the way out. Because I think one of the reasons people get stuck with money stuff and stay in this panic state is that they're catastrophizing but not far enough. They don't like go all the way to like, what would actually happen. Like, how have I dealt with hard things before? So they don't really. So they just stop at the catastrophe and then they don't look at the aftermath.
- [43:37]
Savannah Guthrie
Yeah, yeah, yeah, take it all the way. And then what? And then what?
- [43:40]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah, let's catastrophize strategically. We gotta go all the way. Then what? And most of the time, if you had the wherewithal to get on a coaching call, all that stuff, you also have the wherewithal to figure out what you would do after that. Obviously, like, some people don't have those resources and we need social policy for that reason. But many, most of us, especially people, if you're listening to a podcast on a coaching call, you do have some support in your life. So what would that look like?
- [44:05]
Savannah Guthrie
Oh, beautiful. Do you know what else is the opposite of catastrophizing? Completely full of power. Something that I love to engage in.
- [44:16]
Jen
Every week same the bill of the week.
- [44:23]
Cara Lowenthal
This is the bill of the week.
- [44:30]
Hoda Kotb
That's right. It's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name is William. Maybe you paid off your mortgage, maybe your car died and you're happy to not have to pay that bill anymore.
- [44:44]
Jen
Duck bills. Buffalo Bills, Bill Clinton. This is the bill of the week, Cara. Every week we yell at our guests and our listeners and we ask them to share with us their bill of the week and we would love to hear yours.
- [45:03]
Cara Lowenthal
Absolutely. So I just bought a house and this is like, I was about to say my husband and I bought a house, but that's not true. I bought a house.
- [45:10]
Savannah Guthrie
Yes. Make sure the language is accurate.
- [45:13]
Cara Lowenthal
I bought a house and upstate and I noticed like even now, even though I'm the person who makes the money, even though I run a multi seven figure business, like all these things I still in my brain am like, is a grownup going to say that this is a good idea or not? Like, how do I. Right, like, is this, is it responsible? Is this a good idea? Is this the right amount for a house? Like, right. I'm still like in my mind, sort of have I still have that. Like, is somebody going to check my work or I'm just going to be allowed, which is like, I'm 43 years old. You're like, I could have an adult child by now. But. But I think that women have More of that socialization. Because we're so socialized to like, always be looking to an authority for approval, right? And so being in this situation, I'll ask my husband sometime. He's like, it's your money. I don't know. I like the house, but like, you gotta decide. And so I, like, that was a very fun and big bill to pay, but also an opportunity for me to be like, oh, this is so interesting. Like, and this is what I think is useful for everybody. When your brain is like, I don't know, maybe this was irresponsible, right? Like, how would you know? Like, what could the, what are the conditions in which I think my brain would say 100%, I absolutely feel good. This is a responsible, excellent choice. No other approval necessary. Like, there are none. There are no circumstances in which my brain is going to spit that out on the first try. So I can't let that stop me. I just have to do what I can think of to decide if it seems reasonable. And then most importantly, which is what I teach all women about risk, Like, I have to decide ahead of time what I'm going to say to myself if there's a problem down the line. What if we do end up wanting to sell the house and we lose a little money on it? Like, then what am I going to say to myself, right? I got to decide ahead of time. That's not going to be, see, women shouldn't have money or whatever it is that I imagine.
- [47:05]
Jen
I'm going to think, yeah, there's space to make mistakes, right? So, and I, yeah, that's something as perfectionists, we don't want to do. And we think that other people, namely men, get it right the first time. But I think they just don't talk about the mistakes.
- [47:25]
Cara Lowenthal
Like, they don't see them in that same way. Like, yeah, I mean, when people ask me what's my biggest failure, I actually have to be like, wait, what? Because I don't think of them as failures in that same way. But I have a whole podcast about like choosing the amount of mistakes you're willing to make. And so because we, I think we all think that the amount is zero, ideally we will make zero mistakes. And I had this conversation actually with my husband who, despite being socialized as a man, hasn't done 10 years of thought work and is like more risk averse than I am because he was sort of like, well, I don't know, like, shouldn't we look at like 100 houses first? Or like, how do we know you know, and I was like, I'm actually just willing to make 80% mistakes to get the kind of life and experiences and creativity and growth that I will get from the 20 that end up working out. Like, I'm willing to make more mistakes than I make good decisions because I'll still at least be. I'll have gotten all of the growth from that 20. As opposed to people who are like, I'm only gonna make two decisions in my life and they both need to be 100% right.
- [48:25]
Jen
Yeah.
- [48:25]
Cara Lowenthal
It's like, what is your acceptable error rate? What is your acceptable mistake rate? What's your acceptable risk rate?
- [48:30]
Savannah Guthrie
Mm, I love that permission. That is so helpful. You know, we talk about defining our enough on the one hand, but I think also being able to define. Yeah. Permissible errors on the other. And even on a much smaller scale I think we've talked about in the past, feeling like I have felt myself, I need every single purchase to be as wise and the best possible efficient deal I could find. Or who am I to have frugal friends Podcasts, like, they all need to be just like, killer spending decisions. And in reality, it can't. It cannot be like that. And I think giving myself the permission to, like, let go of that idea that sometimes I might be spendy, sometimes I might have bought something that I should have returned or I shouldn't have even gotten in the first place. But this is how I'm learning. And sometimes it's just okay to buy the thing that you needed in the moment, and it's okay that a better deal came up a few a few weeks later.
- [49:36]
Cara Lowenthal
But the other, it's a much smaller scale, it will keep you. But it's. No, I think that's crucial because if you think about it this way, if. What if your thought is if you get too attached to having to always have been right about your financial decisions, then you actually are not able to grow or make new decisions. Right. So if I decide, like, when we moved into, we live in a rental and when we moved in, I spend a bunch of money, like, decorating it, making nice. I care a lot about, like, what my living place looks like. I work from home. I really am, like, not agoraphobic, but I am a homebody. Like, I just wanted to look. So. And I spent money on that where a lot of other people would not have because it's a rental and we didn't know how long we'd be there. And now we're going to move and I have zero regret about that. But I also would not want to be someone, would not want to live my life in such a way where I was like, well, even though it would make a lot more sense for us to move because I can save on taxes if we move because we can take that money and put it into an investment, because I can build more wealth with this move, I'm not going to do that because that would make like the expenses I spent on the rental a waste. Right. I have to justify that decision. So I have to stick with this decision and to justify that sunk cost. I think that's an error a lot of people make if they don't want to admit that, like, oh, maybe I quote unquote wasted money. Maybe I bought a dress. I mean, you can do it with a simple purchase. Maybe I bought a dress and I don't actually in two years. My style is different and I don't actually like it and I would like to just get rid of it, but I won't let myself change my style or like evolve because then that makes this a waste.
- [51:02]
Savannah Guthrie
Oh, such a good point.
- [51:03]
Cara Lowenthal
And when you actually penny wise, pound foolish. Yeah.
- [51:06]
Jen
When you actually are defining your style and not just being at the whim of influence, when you're buying that stuff, you can feel more confident about the purchase and the giving up of it because you know you're not wasting. You didn't. There's not like 10 dresses because you were influenced by an Instagram influencer call.
- [51:28]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah, right. That's not saying like act on every impulse.
- [51:30]
Jen
Right. But you can make these decisions that you might internalize as like a mistake or a sunk cost, but it's really an informed, intentional decision. So there's just like grow, right.
- [51:46]
Cara Lowenthal
If you're not gonna ever. You can't grow if your number one priority is making sure that you never think differently about as decision you made in the past.
- [51:56]
Savannah Guthrie
This has been a jam packed bill of the week. Cara, thank you so much. No, no apologies needed here. I love you all listening. Have a bill. You want to share if it's about how you're working through some of your mind mindsets or socialization around money and the ways in which you're responding to thinking that you need some authority figure to come in and tell you if you're making right decisions or if you too are finding the permission to just buy what you love and it's okay if you make mistakes or your name is bill frugalfriendspodcast.com Bill, leave us your bill. We can't wait for it.
- [52:29]
Hoda Kotb
It's better over here at&T customers Switching to T Mobile has never been easier. We'll pay off your existing phone and give you a new one free. All on America's largest 5G network. Visit t mobile.com carrier freedom to switch today. Pay off up to 650 via virtual prepaid MasterCard in 15 days. Free phone up to 830 via 24 monthly bill credits plus tax qualifying port and trade in service on go 5G next and credit required. Contact us before canceling entire account to continue bill credits or credit stop and balance and required finance agreement is due the holidays are officially here at the Home Depot, which means it's time to deck the halls and your home with festive cheer. If you're on the hunt for the perfect tree, we've got you covered. Explore our huge assortment of trees in all shapes, sizes and styles designed to fit any holiday vibe and every holiday budget. Like the Jackson Noble fir, it's not only super easy to assemble, but it also comes Pre lit with 1200 color changing bulbs and multiple light lighting functions. Or maybe the flocked starry light Frasier fir is more your style. With over 1900 pre lit memory wire branches that hold their shape, this tree's ready to shine right out of the box. Whether it's trees, wreaths or twinkling lights, we've got everything you need to make your home holiday ready. So shop now@home depot.com and enjoy free delivery on most holiday decorations subject to availability. See homedepot.com delivery for details. You guys know I'm always up for a good MVP story and one of the best is the story of Wasabi Technologies. Wasabi is purpose built to free businesses from skyrocketing storage costs and unpredictable egress fees from old and top heavy legacy providers. You know the big guys Wasabi is the world's hottest cloud storage company, becoming the go to provider for professional and collegiate sports teams in leagues around the world. And here's why. From Wasabi's AI enabled intelligent media storage, Wasabi Air to the industry's only cloud storage service with triple protection against cybercriminals, data deletion and ransomware, Wasabi's taken the lead in driving innovation and data storage, eliminating overhead wear. It matters to deliver you results you can count on and won't break the bank. In fact, Wasabi is up to 80% less than those other guys and doesn't charge a cent for businesses to access their own data. Wasabi Another championship story. Check them out for free@wasabi.com Ever wonder why top financial advisors from your firm choose ubs? The Advisors on the Move why UBS Report uncovers just that and more. In these reports, you'll learn the key reasons why advisors move and choose UBS, their motivations behind it and their experiences transitioning to UBS. Download your free copy now at ubs.com y, UBS Financial Services, Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Are lingering depression symptoms affecting you? If you're on an antidepressant and still struggling with lingering depression symptoms, ask your doctor about a lift in relief with Vraylar Cariprazine Vraylar is a prescription medicine approved for use with antidepressant medicines to treat major depressive disorder in adults. Adding Ralar to an antidepressant is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms better than an antidepressant alone. Results may vary. Vraylar is not approved in elderly patients with dementia related psychosis or for people under 18. Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke Report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. Antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. Report fever, stiff muscles or confusion as these may be life threatening or uncontrolled muscle movements which may be permanent High blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death Weight gain and high cholesterol may occur Difficulty moving, tremors, slow or uncontrolled body movements, restlessness, feeling like you need to move around, nausea, constipation, insomnia, dizziness, increased appetite and fatigue are common side effects. Side effects may not appear for several weeks. For a lift in relief, ask about adding Braylar V R A Y L A R. Visit Braylar.com or call 1-877-6-BRAYLAR to learn more.
- [56:47]
Savannah Guthrie
And now it's time for the Lightning round shoes.
- [56:51]
Jen
You feel Pew. Yes, we do all our own sound effects.
- [56:56]
Cara Lowenthal
That's amazing. Yeah, I didn't know that was going to happen. I like it. Okay, so frugal. You don't have to pay music or anything.
- [57:03]
Savannah Guthrie
We save money.
- [57:04]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah.
- [57:05]
Jen
Okay, so this is our vulnerability around and we all share. But Carl, we'll have you go first. What's one money belief you've personally had to unlearn as a woman? And how did that shift the impact or shift impact your financial decisions?
- [57:22]
Cara Lowenthal
My God, I could have a whole podcast that was about this. I grew up. Oh my God, there's so many. Okay, I need to do two really fast because they're both ones I've talked about, so it's really just. Here's how these I Experienced these. So, number one, I thought money was bad, and people wanted money was bad. I grew up in a family with a. One parent was entrepreneur, One parent was a social justice lawyer. So, like, very different situations. And I definitely thought, like, yeah, people care about money or bad. Money's bad. That means something bad about you. And then I decided to start a business. It's very hard to run a business when you have that thought. People try. I coach them. It's very difficult. So I really had to change that whole mindset in order to create a business. And, of course, the irony is that I was working as a nonprofit lawyer and academic, and I think I was doing important work. But I have now helped literally millions of people who listen to my podcast and read my book and have come through my programs because I was willing to change that thought and have a business and pursue a profit in addition to my mission. So that was a huge one. And the second one was like, I've definitely had many variations of the, like, I'm not good with money thought I can't understand spreadsheets. I can't. You know, I had no business background. I didn't have an mba. I went to law school. I was a reproductive rights attorney. So I had to undo a lot of that, like, socialization of, like. And it's still only this year have I truly embraced spreadsheets and, like, really am willing to be sent a spreadsheet and look at it and be like, I can understand this. This year I've gotten really deep into, like, my. The business finances in a different way. So I'm, like, still undoing that work and seeing myself as, like, an authority and able to make those good decisions and make investment decisions in my business. Like, I think that's ongoing work.
- [58:58]
Savannah Guthrie
Lovely.
- [58:59]
Jen
Yes. All right, Jill.
- [59:02]
Savannah Guthrie
Investing. I have totally internalized that. Investing is not for me. Leave it with the finance bros. They know what they're talking about, and I am continuing to unwork this. I have now begun to invest, but and have understood more and more that most of these finance pros actually have no idea what they're talking about.
- [59:26]
Cara Lowenthal
27Th named Chad, who went to Bowdoin, does not know more about investing than you can figure out.
- [59:32]
Savannah Guthrie
Yes. And that's been so helpful. So there's, like, been extra little gifts and treasures for me along the way when I can understand and then I can know that you are talking out the side of your face, but everyone's, like, fallen for it, and I just get to smile.
- [59:50]
Jen
I love that for you. For me, it was actually this unlearning of I have to be the breadwinner in order to be worthy. For a while, I was the breadwinner. And then when we got the book deal, I stopped freelance writing. And so I didn't have that main source of my income because I really felt passionate about this book and putting everything into it and putting the marketing in. And also I, like, I had a baby too last year, so like that was part of it. But I, for the last, for last year and this year have made less than my husband. And it has been hard for me. Like, he doesn't care. He doesn't care if I make more than him, less than him.
- [60:48]
Savannah Guthrie
He's detached from his.
- [60:50]
Jen
He's detached from that. Right. It's me. And I feel like I am less worthy because I make less money. Like my worth is tied to my income. And so I've really had to work through the past two years just saying like, yes, we have always had enough. We have never missed a bill. Right. It's. We are okay with me, you know, doing less work, making less money and also being able to like drop off my kids and pick them up every day and doing this kind of traditional housewife thing that I didn't see myself ever doing.
- [61:32]
Savannah Guthrie
You are not a traditional housewife.
- [61:34]
Jen
I know this, but I love that.
- [61:35]
Savannah Guthrie
That came out of your mouth.
- [61:36]
Cara Lowenthal
I see this in entrepreneurs too. It's like you're actually making an investment in a longer term wealth building project, which is writing your book, presumably. We all hope that's what our books will do on some level. Yeah, I've just been through this. Whether they do or don't like, but that's one of those risks, right? With mine, I was like, this is like, I'm building a factory. Like I'm spending all this time and money creating this thing and not doing as much of my business. But when we're so socialized to be like, no, the money this year is what determines my worth. Like we actually, that's another like pennywise pound foolish thing where we hold ourselves back from a way we could be even aside from all the non financial reasons, just even financially. Right. If we're too tied to the like, what's happening today, what's happening this week, what's happening this year, what's happening right now, that's what matters. Then we hold ourselves back from investing in like longer term projects that take longer to pay off.
- [62:25]
Savannah Guthrie
Yeah.
- [62:26]
Jen
Yep, that's. That's where I'm at.
- [62:28]
Savannah Guthrie
Oh, Cara, this has been so life giving. For me personally, it's one of them, our main goals.
- [62:37]
Jen
Excited for this?
- [62:38]
Savannah Guthrie
Yeah. So thank you so much for sharing all. Not even all of your wisdom. A smidgen of it. If people do want more from you, where can they get that?
- [62:47]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah. Well, first of all, you guys are going to come on my podcast and we're talking about dieting and budgeting, so I'm very excited about that. Come subscribe to UNF your brain so you get that conversation and then you can find me at school of new. SchoolOfNewFeministThought.com is our website. My podcast is on F your brain or just search my name. There's no one else named Carl Lowenthal and I will come up.
- [63:10]
Savannah Guthrie
Yes, absolutely.
- [63:10]
Jen
And your book.
- [63:11]
Cara Lowenthal
And my book. Go.
- [63:12]
Jen
Yes.
- [63:13]
Cara Lowenthal
Right. I have a book. Go get your book. That is the easiest, cheapest, fastest way anywhere books are sold.
- [63:19]
Savannah Guthrie
Lovely. Thanks so much, Cara.
- [63:21]
Cara Lowenthal
Thanks for having me.
- [63:25]
Jen
I truly love and feel seen when I can hear somebody talking about these things that we are thinking and feeling and where their roots come from. That I didn't just make all this stuff up in my head, but this is because of the culture that we live in. And that's not an excuse, but it is an opportunity to learn and build based on the knowledge that we now have.
- [63:59]
Savannah Guthrie
Yeah. It gives voice and context to our experiences, which I think can always help us in moving forward. I think to know where we currently are and where we're going, it's important to know where we've come from. Again, not to put all of our experiences hang it on the coat rack of oh because of everything that happened in the past. But it does shed light on where we find ourselves now and can help give us the tools that we need to be able to respond in ways that make sense for us. That is person in environment to a T and my social work heart loves it. You know what I also love is when you all listen to our podcast and give us reviews like this one from M in Florida who says say no to impulse buys. 5 stars. Loved this podcast. You girls were spot on about combating impulse buying with hobbies. I used to be a shopaholic, but hobbies have now taken over the shop till you drop urge. Currently filling that shopping void. Calligraphy, embroidery, adult coloring, puzzles, Scrabble, baking, juicing, journaling, weightlifting, hoopla. All done with bare minimal supplies and self taught thanks to IG, YouTube and TikTok. So looking forward to your upcoming book.
- [65:22]
Jen
Oh my Lord. Em, you're also going to love our Next episode, it's all about Impulse Shopp. This is fantastic. And I love the caveat you made all done with bare minimal supplies and self taught. Because this is. We love trying new things, right? You've got to try a lot of things to figure out what works for you. The mistake people make is they'll go out and buy all the supplies before they know if it works for them. You start like, m with self taught, all the bare minimalist things, and then whichever ones really stick with you, those are the ones you invest in. So great job, Em.
- [66:00]
Savannah Guthrie
You listed off quite a lot of ideas for the rest of us I.
- [66:05]
Jen
Want to get into in the new year.
- [66:06]
Savannah Guthrie
Ooh, fun.
- [66:07]
Jen
Yeah, I'm excited about it.
- [66:09]
Savannah Guthrie
Well, thank you all so much for listening. And if this is inspiring you to leave a review just for the show altogether, or if there's a specific episode that resonated with you, that's another great way to be able to leave a review. It'll help new listeners know where they should start, which episode is a real banger, and that helps them and it helps us. Thanks so much. See you next time.
- [66:32]
Jen
Bye. Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni.
- [66:48]
Savannah Guthrie
So this is challenging me to change my language about who pays for things.
- [66:57]
Jen
That's so interesting. I didn't realize, like, that was a joke that you made, like, that you say he paid for it because he makes money.
- [67:05]
Savannah Guthrie
Yeah, I guess so.
- [67:07]
Jen
I think.
- [67:10]
Savannah Guthrie
Oh, man, this is really interesting to kind of get into the weeds of my psyche. I feel like I've even kind of made comments maybe even less jokey to Eric, like, I don't know, like, thanks for buying that, or thanks for, like, this or that. And while I appreciate what he brings to the table, I do think in some ways it might kind of take away from how I also contribute financially. And so, yeah, I still want mutual respect. I feel like we totally have that in our relationship. But I think it's causing me to think through, well, in what ways can I kind of challenge some of these things where I might be giving it an unequal measure or maybe even like an uncollaborative measure? And in what ways am I almost pressuring him? Ooh. By saying that. That, like, ooh, he is the 1 resp for the different things. It's almost like negating that I work, but also then potentially putting more pressure on him that these things do need to be provided for by him.
- [68:27]
Jen
Yeah, that's an interesting thought.
- [68:29]
Savannah Guthrie
Like she said, like, these ideas hurt both of us.
- [68:32]
Jen
Yeah. Yeah. I know, Travis and I have had a lot of conversations about my feelings of, of like being not good enough because I had to take a pay cut or I chose to take a pay cut.
- [68:49]
Cara Lowenthal
Yeah.
- [68:49]
Savannah Guthrie
That's a tough one.
- [68:50]
Jen
Yeah. And he's always been like, so supportive, but it's really just a mind bend for me. I think Trish trying, like having like moved out of my childhood home at 16 and being, well, I just turned 17 and having to like be on my own and providing for myself since then, I think that is where a lot of that has come from. And for the first time in my life, I can, I don't have to contribute. So that makes me feel like, what am I doing? And I know what I'm doing. I'm, you know, I'm creating something I think will have a longer lasting effect than I will. But it's hard.
- [69:41]
Savannah Guthrie
Yeah.
- [69:42]
Jen
Because I believe those money lies.
- [69:45]
Savannah Guthrie
Yeah. Yeah. This is a whole other vulnerability round vulnerabilities. The guest episode.
- [69:52]
Cara Lowenthal
Episode.
- [69:53]
Jen
Get on it.
- [69:55]
Savannah Guthrie
I feel that too. That's. We could talk for probably so much longer, but I'm going to not do that. I'm going to save my voice.
- [70:05]
Jen
I am going to just be thankful that it's just another validation to release those maybe socialized thoughts well, understand where.
- [70:18]
Savannah Guthrie
They came from first. I think that's one of the things too when people say, change your mindset, change the way you think. I think it's really hard to do that until we really understand where is this thinking pattern coming from. To help. I think knowledge can help us to then reframe and shift when we're really able to get to the root of. Here's why it's inaccurate.
- [70:41]
Jen
Yeah.
- [70:42]
Savannah Guthrie
Oh, okay.
- [70:43]
Jen
Yeah. This holiday season, surprise everyone on your.
- [70:47]
Savannah Guthrie
List with the best gifts.
- [70:48]
Jen
Tickets to see their favorite artists live.
- [70:50]
Savannah Guthrie
Choose from thousands of concerts and comedy shows, including Mariah Carey, Mary J. Blige, Matt Matthews, Metallica, Thomas Rhett, Trans Siberian Orchestra, Sarah Silverman, and so many more.
- [71:03]
Jen
Share a memory together or give a gift they'll never forget.
- [71:07]
Hoda Kotb
Find the most exciting gift for every fan@livenation.com gifts.
- [71:11]
Jen
That's livenation.com gifts.
- [71:14]
Hoda Kotb
Once upon a time, Amazon music met audiobooks, and listeners everywhere rejoiced.
- [71:20]
Cara Lowenthal
Oh, yeah.
- [71:21]
Hoda Kotb
Because now they could listen to one audiobook title a month from an enormous library of popular audiobook titles, including Romantasy, Autobiographies, True Crime, and more. Suddenly, listeners didn't mind sitting in traffic or even missing their flight. Amazon Music Unlimited now includes Audible Download, the Amazon Music app. Now to start Listening terms apply. Gifting is hard, but here's a hint. Give the gift of connection from US Cellular. Not sure what that means? Here's a slightly more specific hint. You can choose four free phones and get four lines for $90 a month from US Cellular. Your family wants new phones?
- [72:00]
Cara Lowenthal
How do we know?
- [72:01]
Hoda Kotb
They told us.
- [72:02]
Savannah Guthrie
The good news is that compared to.
- [72:04]
Hoda Kotb
Wrapping presents, you're great at getting hints.
- [72:06]
Savannah Guthrie
So take the hint and get them.
- [72:08]
Hoda Kotb
Four free phones and four lines for $90 a month. US Cellular built for us.
- [72:14]
Savannah Guthrie
The holidays are here, and so is the Ikea Winter Sale.
- [72:17]
Cara Lowenthal
Now's your chance to make the holidays a little more magical and less expensive. Save up to 50% off on select.
- [72:24]
Savannah Guthrie
Items in store and online now through January 7th.
- [72:26]
Cara Lowenthal
Plus IKEA loyalty members get an extra.
- [72:28]
Hoda Kotb
10% off on sale items.
- [72:30]
Cara Lowenthal
And if you spend $2.99 or more.
- [72:32]
Savannah Guthrie
On a single order before December 10th, enjoy free delivery offer valid in the.
- [72:36]
Cara Lowenthal
US through One7 Mall Supplies. Last selection may vary by store and online.
- [72:39]
Savannah Guthrie
C store in ikea-usa.com wintersale for complete terms. Restrictions apply.
- [72:44]
Hoda Kotb
This is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. Many people have questions about how to improve levels of happiness. Living a healthy lifestyle is one sure way of increasing happiness, and a good.
- [72:55]
Savannah Guthrie
Place to start is with your oral health.
- [72:57]
Hoda Kotb
Just a few small changes to your oral care routine, such as changing your toothpaste to Colgate Total, can lead to beneficial changes in your oral health. Colgate Total helps stop oral health problems like gingivitis and cavities before they start, because preventing oral health problems is a lot easier than treating them. Be dentist ready and get colgate total@shop.colgate.com total.