← Frugal Friends Podcast
Loading summary
Transcript215 lines
- [00:02]
State Farm Representative
Sometimes life can seem hard and tough to navigate, but what may seem like the smallest tasks, such as getting out of bed or even brushing your teeth, should be celebrated as a win. And State Farm is here to help you celebrate all your wins. The State Farm Personal Price Plan helps you create an affordable price just for you. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can bundle and save with the Personal Price Plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability of the amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. It's better over here at&T customers switching to T Mobile has never been easier. We'll pay off your existing phone and give you a new one free. All on America's largest 5G network. Visit t mobile.com carrierfreedom to switch today. Pay off up to $650 via virtual prepaid MasterCard in 15 days. Free phone up to $830 via 24 monthly bill credits plus tax qualifying porting trade in service on Go 5G next and credit required. Contact us before canceling entire to continue bill credit to credit stop and balance and required finance agreement is due.
- [01:07]
Dr. Laurie Santos
This is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. Many people have questions about how to improve levels of happiness. Living a healthy lifestyle is one sure way of increasing happiness, and a good place to start is with your oral health. Just a few small changes to your oral care routine, such as changing your toothpaste to Colgate Total, can lead to beneficial changes in your oral health. Colgate Total helps stop oral health problems like gingivitis and cavities before they start, because preventing oral health problems is a lot easier than treating them. Be dentist ready and get colgate total@shop.colgate.com.
- [01:42]
Vraylar Representative
Total are your lingering depression symptoms getting in your way? If you're on an antidepressant for major depressive disorder and you've made some progress but your unresolved symptoms leave you feeling stuck, it may be time to ask your doctor about Vraylar Cariprazine. Vralar is a prescription medicine approved for use with antidepressant medicines to treat MDD in adults. Adding Vralar to an antidepressant is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms better than an antidepressant alone. Results may vary. Build on the progress you've already made. Ask your doctor if adding on Vralar to your current antidepressant could help give you a lift in relief. Vralar is not approved in elderly patients with dementia related psychosis or for people under 18. Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. Antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. Report fever, stiff muscles or confusion, as these may be life threatening or uncontrolled muscle movements which may be permanent High blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death. Weight gain and high cholesterol may occur. Difficulty moving tremors, slow or uncontrolled body movements, restlessness, feeling like you need to move around nausea, constipation, insomnia, dizziness, increased appetite and fatigue are common side effects. Side effects may not appear for several weeks. For a lift in relief, ask about adding VRALAR V R A Y L A R. Visit vralar.com or call 1-877-6-Bralar to learn more.
- [03:11]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Holiday magic is in the air and.
- [03:13]
Jen
DSW's got all the shoes to make your season extra merry. Believe you've got parties to attend and.
- [03:19]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Lists to check twice.
- [03:20]
Jen
So DSW is taking care of the details. Gifts to make their eyes all aglow. Styles that bring joy to your world. Brands everyone wants like Ugg, Nike, Birkenstock and more and deals to make your budget bright. Find the perfect shoes for you and yours at a DSW store near you or dsw.com Episode 470 is Episode 230 negotiating medical bills with Dr. Virgie Bright Elling.
- [03:52]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Welcome to the Frugal Friends Podcast.
- [03:54]
State Farm Representative
Where you'll learn to save money, embrace simplicity and live a richer life. Here are your hosts, Jen and Jill.
- [04:08]
Jen
Welcome to the Frugal Friends Podcast. Happy Christmas Eve. Happy Hanukkah Eve. My name is Jen.
- [04:14]
Jill
My name is Jill and we are.
- [04:16]
Jen
Re airing our probably this year our most recommended episode. It's the one we personally have told so many people about in the last, I guess two years. Cause that's when it aired was two years ago and it's definitely been the one that we've recommended the most on negotiating medical bills.
- [04:37]
Jill
It's such a practical need that we all have faced, are currently facing or will face. This is one of the episodes that I've recommended to just personal friends of mine. I'll be like, you don't have to listen to my podcast on an ongoing basis, but here's a really helpful one when people have questions about it. I just think it's so, so tangible useful. So we're putting it at the top of the list again so you don't have to dig through the archives. But first, this episode is brought to you by Gold. G O L D baby. Pure unadulterated gold like previous podcast episodes that just crushed and the book that is probably being printed as we speak. You know our book, Buy what yout Love Without Going Broke. If you want all the golden nuggets and even a few golden bricks right at your doorstep in your hands, pre order that book. BuyWhatYouLoveBook.com there's still it is the day before Christmas if you want to give.
- [05:45]
Jen
Yourself a little extra something yourself a gift.
- [05:48]
Jill
Yes, pre order that book baby, and it'll be to you. It releases on the 7th.
- [05:55]
Jen
Here's the best gift if you pre order before the 29th. So if you're listening to this on the 24th or maybe the 26th, on December 29th we are doing a live class for only pre orderers on creating a one year meal plan. So if you are struggling with food costs, if you are a human being, then you're definitely gonna wanna be there for our live class on creating a practical doable one year meal plan. And that is exclusive to pre orderers of the book. So head to buywhatyoulovebook.com and once you purchase the book, that same page is where you would submit your proof of purchase to get access to that live class. And then on January 29th we are doing one more on making a one.
- [06:44]
Jill
Year spending plan and we are recording those too. So if you can't join live but you've pre ordered the book and you filled out the form on that same website, buywhatyoulovebook.com, you'd still have access to the content. So if having a full year meal plan and having a walkthrough of making a full year spending plan feels useful for you this time of year turning into a new year, then then at least, at least buy the book for that receipt.
- [07:09]
Jen
Both of those things and a book for $25. That feels like a good gift. So speaking of saving money and ways to lower your expenses, medical bills, we have done several episodes on negotiating because it is a really effective way to lower what you pay and also increase what you earn. Uh, we've got episode 449, how women can Negotiate Better with Katherine Valentine. And then episode 339, how to negotiate and Save Lots of Money. Those are two of our most recent negotiation episodes. But you can search Negotiate Frugal Friends on your podcast player. Find different episodes also on our website frugalfriends podcast.com but this is such a Great episode, full of great facts and tips and I can't wait for you to hear it.
- [08:02]
Jill
Let's get into it.
- [08:08]
Jen
Dr. Virjee, welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. It is a honor and pleasure to have you on.
- [08:15]
Dr. Laurie Santos
You know what, ladies? It is my honor and pleasure and I've been following you guys for a few years. I've been on your listserv. I'm trying to think of how many years it's been, but I know it was like way before the pandemic. So when I saw you guys have a podcast, I'm like, hey, the world is small. This is awesome. Life is good.
- [08:34]
Jill
So we're just fanning on each other, but mostly we are here to highlight you, Dr. Virji, your knowledge and experience and what you have to share with our listeners today. So thanks for being here and sharing what you know.
- [08:47]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Thank you so much for having me.
- [08:50]
Jen
Yeah. So let's dive in. You are an expert on medical billing and medical debt. So I know the first thing people will usually get is a surprise charge on their bills. That's happened so often. How should people handle surprise charges on their medical bills?
- [09:09]
Dr. Laurie Santos
So surprise charge, we call surprise billing is actually a formal description. There's an actual. The term surprise bill or surprise billing refers in actuality to cases in which you have insurance and you go to get care at a facility and maybe you had the option, it was an elective thing and you had knee surgery, had planned, or unfortunately, if you had an emergency and you go to a facility, you know that they take your insurance. When you don't have any choice of the physicians that are involved with your care, physicians that you have no choice in choosing, like the ER doc, the anesthesiologist, the radiologist who reads the X ray of your broken to determine if your bone is broken. If you had the elective surgery, they take tissue, they send it off. Anything that's taken from the human body, they'll send it off to pathology for a physician to look at it under the microscope to make sure it's not. It's always benign, meaning non cancerous versus they don't see any cancer cells. Those are all folks. Those are all physicians that you don't have any choice in picking. And if they are out of network, that means that they'll send you a bill for their whole full retail price and you're stuck with it. So this has been an issue because there are business models, there are, there's private equity, there are corporations whose business model is to say, okay, we're going to hire all these docs who you have no choice in picking when you go to the hospital or you need care. And we're going to charge them full price, which is often tens and tens. And I can't explain how outrageous the numbers are. When they don't take insurance, they take no insurances. That's their business model. And you go in thinking that you've done all of your research to make sure that you're in network with this facility, but they hire physicians who are not. That results in a surprise bill.
- [11:17]
Jen
So how do we, when we do we have any power over that either before or after?
- [11:24]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Yep. The great news is as of January 1st of this year, a bill was passed. It's now federal law where if you have insurance and you go to an in network provider and you are given sent a bill by other physicians that are involved with your care who do not accept your insurance, they have to negotiate directly with the insurance company to work out a payment. You know, work out. Is it going to be the in network rate that they usually pay? Are they going to pay a little bit of a premium? Whatever it is, the patient is out of the middle. So until now, until January 1st of this year, there were a few states that had, you know, bills were in that state that you could not get a surprise bill. Well, it was illegal in that state to charge patients who you, if they're out of network, if you charge them out of network prices. But now it's a federal law. So that's how you protect yourself. You make sure that if you've gotten a bill from you go to get care and you've gotten a bill where it says, you know what, we're not in network with your provider. Well, with your insurance rather. Well, not my problem anymore. As of January 1, 2022, you're going to put them in touch then they know this, the providers know this. They have to deal with your insurance directly and leave the patient out instead of having the patient holding the bag, which is been the case for eons until now.
- [12:54]
Jill
So if you get that bill, if we get that bill in the mail and we realize this, we've now listened to Dr. Virjee and we know a bill has passed and we're not responsible for this. Would that just be us reminding the provider of that law? Please talk to my insurance company.
- [13:10]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Yeah, talk to my insurance company. You know, they say talk to the hand. Talk to my insurance company. I'm out. So, you know, I, I really like to use this as an opportunity to talk about. There's a reason why. This is the reason why there's only one right way to pay a medical bill. And that's because usually, unfortunately, I would say nine times out of 10, a medical care facility will send you a bill that's not a real bill. And they do that because they know it works. We panic and we'll figure out how to pay this off. So I'm going to take you through the one right way to pay a medical bill. There's three steps. And in this process, Jillian, we're going to say, okay, you know what? By doing this process of the one right way of paying a medical bill, going through the three steps, we're not going to get caught by any tricks like surprise billing. So it's the one right way to pay a medical bill, will protect you from, among other things, surprise billing. So the one thing you want to do when you get up any medical bill is to look to make sure that it's an accurate or itemized bill. And what I'm calling now, a real bill, a real bill has what's called CPT codes. CPT codes are just like barcodes. When you go into a store, every product has a barcode, right? You take that product, you run it through the scanner and it'll tell you, it'll identify, you know, some description of the product and the price that the facility is charging for that particular product. Same thing with CPT codes. Every single medical service in the United States has a CPT code. And I won't bore you with what CPT stands for. There are people who work in the insurance company I know for years, and they can't remember what CPT stands for.
- [15:00]
Jill
It's amazing.
- [15:00]
Dr. Laurie Santos
And you know, it has a long name, you know, common procedural terminology, which is why we don't use, we just call it CPT codes. I was talking to a radio host a couple of months ago and he says, you know what we should call it? Can't pay this. That's what CPT should anyway.
- [15:16]
Jen
So. Oh, yeah, right.
- [15:20]
Dr. Laurie Santos
So you get a medical bill and you make sure it has CPT codes at the top. You'll see CPT at the top. And under it, CPT codes are usually like a five digit number describing a service. So that's what you're going to do. You're going to first step is call your provider and get a real bill. So what I've been talking about this and one of those things that's been bugging me this week, I'm realizing, you know, These bills that we often get, that consumers, the American patient, the public gets, are just not bills. They're kind of like wishful thinking. They're like, oh, maybe they'll pay it if we send them this with no CPT codes and it has a description and that's it. You know, they think that it's a real bill, but it's not. So first step, always call to make sure you get a real bill, which is an itemized bill, basically. Fancy name for a bill with CPT codes. And that takes you to the second step. When you get that bill with CPT codes, you're going to take it and Google the codes to make sure that each of the codes describes the service that you think you got or services that you think you received during your stay or during your visit. Great. Once you get those codes, what will come up as a description? Awesome. And you're making sure that that makes sense in terms of what you got, making sure you're not getting double bill, that kind of thing, or bill for something you know, that you didn't get. Then you're going to take those codes and you're going to continue to Google, but this time you're going to Google what Medicare pays for each of those codes for each of those services. So Medicare is federal government care, healthcare. And cms, which stands for Centers for Medicaid and Medicare Services, has a standard list of things that they pay for each CPT code. Right. The thing is, is that I consider Medicare the basic flat rate. So there are a lot of people who do this kind of work, meaning trying to help people with, who are struggling with medical bills, educating the American public in terms of medical financial literacy. And they say, well, okay, we look this up, but we're going to agree to pay two times the Medicare rate. That takes us down to step three. I disagree. I think start at Medicare, start at the Medicare price. That's the point where you're going to negotiate. Don't go straight to negotiation without doing the first two steps because you're being overcharged. Their retail rates are often 300 to 500% more than what Medicare pays. And so when I say, you know what? I started the Medicare rate. When I say step three, that's the number you're going to start when you call back the medical billing department or the patient accounts department of the facility and say, you know what? This is what I can afford. These are the services I got. This is what I'm able to pay. I think this is fair from my research and the Care that I received. Now, some folks, like I was saying, think that two times Medicare rate is a good place to start. And that's because if you call some of these facilities, you're going to get pushback. And the general thought is, the general pushback is, well, if everybody paid Medicare rates or paid the Medicare prices, we wouldn't be able to stay in business. We wouldn't be able to provide care to everyone. I'm not so sure about that. And even so, not my problem. Not my problem. If I have a budget, which takes me to step three. You're going to call back the provider's office, billing department, patient accounts office, and ask for, number one, an interest free payment plan that fits your budget. And this is really important because people get upset when they think about how long it's going to take them to pay off a bill. They said, oh my gosh, it's going to take me five years, seven years, 10 years. And so what? Right? So the reason why you make, you're going to get probably pushback when you call back the department, building department and say, hey, this is what I'm willing to pay. You know, I need an interest free payment plan. They're going to say, you know, well, this is a $10,000 bill and you know, you paying US$250 a month is just going to take us forever to pay it off. Can you do, you know, we just, that's just too, that's just too little and it'll take us too long to get paid. Can you do 350? No, I can only do 250. And the reason why you want to stick with that is because if you make an agreement with the care facility, it doesn't get reported to credit agencies. Right? It's, it's blind. It doesn't impact your credit report at all, which is awesome. But if you agree to any payment plan and you can't make a payment, they will automatically really quickly. I'm surprised how fast they do it. They'll send it right to collections to debt. They'll sell it to a debt collections for pennies on the dollar. So you may say, okay, well, why would they agree to take so little over a long period of time? And I say the reasons why you want to stick with your budget when you're calling the facility and talking about the payment plan that you need is because as they say, a little bit of something is better than all of nothing. Right? They know it's cheaper to, you know, to take it. You know, instead of having to chase you potentially and, or have to sell it if they have to chase you long enough for pennies on the dollar, you know, to a collections agency. So those are the three steps for the one right way to pay a medical bill.
- [21:15]
Jill
That's so helpful. And at the end of the day, you have already gone through the first two steps where you are equipped with knowledge. You've been able to get rid of any bills or itemized line pieces that you are not actually obligated to pay. You've lowered the rate. And then if it is still too much for you to be able to pay outright that interest free portion, of course none of us like having those payments. But if it's interest free, that makes a big difference, especially as it concerns health care, things that we need to stay alive. We're not just talking about some luxury item.
- [21:54]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Exactly. It's not consumer debt. And you know, the current administration is realizing, hey, you know what, we need to treat it as such. Medical debt. Medical bills are not a choice. Student loans at the end of the day is a choice. But you know, none of us asked to get here, right? None of us has to be born. And once we get here, we're living creatures and we get sick, things happen, we have accidents. And so it's not consumer debt. And I'm glad that the administration is trying to teach folks that, hey, we need to treat medical bills differently than consumer bills. Medical debt different than consumer debt.
- [22:34]
Jill
Well, and it carries so much anxiety because not only are you managing physical health problems, but also financial difficulties too, depending on the amount of money that's owed and whether or not insurance is covering it or you're able to pay. And so I think we've got a couple of layers here of just receiving a bill that might be overwhelming, that we can't really pay, but then that can stack up to medical debt as you're describing here. And I know even before we got on you were even beginning to talk about preventative measures. So talking about preventative but as well as maybe even reactive because sometimes we find ourselves there. What are some of your tips when we are deep into some medical debt, what can be done?
- [23:24]
Dr. Laurie Santos
One of the things you know, I like to remind folks about is that, you know, it's not your fault and you think that, oh my gosh, it's scary, it's complicated, you know, I'm screwed. What am I going to do? I'm going to have to declare bankruptcy. I can't pay this. And many people have. So the first thing I tell folks is that it's not your fault and yes, there are things you can do. So yes, go through and. Well, let me just say one more thing. The reason why we also panic is because, and often panic in addition to all of this is that this happens to us when we're at our most vulnerable, when we're sick, in pain, scared, afraid, unable to work. Whether we have insurance or not, most of us get over our insurance or employers. If we miss enough work because of the illness or the accident, we'll lose our job and therefore our insurance. There's so multiple many reasons why folks in this country get taken advantage of by the system, this health care industry in our country, for profit healthcare industry in our country. So what I tell people, number one is to, to step back and if you're able to pull all of your bills, don't ignore the bills. You know, if you can be ahead of it and call them first, the billing department first, as I explained, and go back and ask for real bills. And a real bill has a CPT code. The other thing I tell folks is to make sure that you're not confusing a real bill with because you're not confusing a real bill with if you have insurance, an explanation of benefits or an eob. And I've gotten multiple calls and examples of where folks I got this bill from my insurance company. No, you're not going to get a bill from your insurance company. What you received is a notice of what they paid and or what they're saying they're not going to pay and what you're going to be responsible for and you're going to have to deal with the provider yourself. So I make sure that I ask folks to pull out anything that says usually it'll say it right across on the front page and subsequent pages. This is not a bill. Those are EOBs or exclamation of benefits. So pull that out and then pull out the actual bills that don't have that at the top. That's not from your insurance company. If you have insurance and call the provider, ask for the real bill with CPT codes. And then if it's less than I tell people this all the time. If it's less than six months out from the services that you received, you can still go back and apply for financial assistance and in some cases even Medicaid, depending on the state that you're in, you can go back and apply for Medicaid if your income is low enough for bills that are six months less than six months old. So that's One option, often we're kind of in between that. We're not at the point where we have to say, okay, you know what, I have zero income, I need to consider applying for Medicaid. Most of us are in the position where we've gone to a health care facility that is nonprofit. Most of the majority of healthcare facilities, hospital medical systems in this country are nonprofit. And I stopped calling it nonprofit. I call it tax exempt because they really have a lot of surplus, let's put it that way. 65% of nonprofit.
- [26:57]
Jill
Right?
- [26:58]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Exactly right. So 65% of hospitals in the United States are tax exempt, aka nonprofit. And in exchange for the by federal law for tax exempt nonprofit status, they provide sliding scale income based discounts to the public and the community that they serve. So what this means is many bills that you get, if you just go to them and say look, call up the office and say look, this is the research. I got the real bill with CPT codes, I've researched it. This is what I can afford to pay and for how long. You call them up and say, yeah, you know, this is what I can do. You'd be surprised that although by law they're supposed to make it post it publicly nonprofit facilities, that of what the process is to apply for financial aid. And a lot of people don't like that term financial aid, you know, but you know, they think of it as charity care has different euphemisms. Right? Charity care, financial assistance, financial aid, it's all income based discounts. And if you have, you'd be surprised at the high income you can have. If your bill is high enough, you may able to get it completely wiped off just based on your income. I've seen a bill as little as I think it was like $13,000. I don't mean little, but compared to their income, the person had like $150,000 gross income that they showed on, you know, they're there, you're going to be asked to show documents and things. And based on their income and the bill, the bill was so large in relationship to their income, the whole thing, the whole bill was wiped away.
- [28:47]
Jill
Wow. Wow.
- [28:48]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Now if you had not right, if you had not been aware that you have rights as if you went to a non profit facility, tax exempt facility. Yeah, you have, you have options. So just because majority of healthcare facilities in our country are nonprofit, 65% of them, this is an option. Now someone brought something to my attention. They say that even for profit facilities have financial assistance programs. You know, if you don't ask you don't get right. So always, always ask, even if you.
- [29:22]
State Farm Representative
Think it's a bit overhyped. AI is suddenly everywhere from self driving cars to molecular medicine to business efficiency. If it's not in your industry yet, it is coming fast. But AI needs a lot of speed and computing power, so how do you compete without costs spiraling out of control? Time to upgrade to the next generation of the cloud Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, or oci. OCI is a blazing, fast and secure platform for your infrastructure, database and application development, plus all your AI and machine learning workloads. OCI costs 50% less for compute and 80% less for networking, so you're saving a pile of money. Thousands of businesses have already upgraded to oci, including MGM Resorts, Specialized Bikes and Fireworks AI. Right now, Oracle is offering to cut your current cloud bill in half if you move to oci for new US customers with minimum financial commitment. Offer ends December 31, 2024. See if your company qualifies for this special offer@oracle.com strategic that's oracle.com strategic Proving Trust is more important than ever, especially when it comes to your security program. Vanta helps centralize program requirements and automate evidence collection for frameworks like SoC2, ISO 27001, HIPAA and more. So you save time and money and build customer trust. And with Vanta, you get continuous visibility into the state of your controls. Join more than 8,000 global companies like Atlassian Flow Health and Quora who trust Vanta to manage risk and prove security in real time. Now that's a new way to GRC. Get $1,000 off Vanta when you go to vanta.comspecial. that's vanta.comspecial for $1,000 off with Navy Federal Credit Union's new Cash Rewards plus card, you'll earn unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase, such as things like groceries, gas and everything in between. Another great thing about the new Cash Rewards plus card is you never have to pay attention to changing spend categories so you can use that 2% cash back on the things you love most, not just everyday purchases. And with a 2K spend, you'll receive $200 cash back and a Walmart plus annual membership. They also so never limit how much you can earn from your spending. Wondering what the catch is? There isn't one. Learn more at navyfederal.org Navy Federal is insured by NCUA now @t mobile. Get four 5G phones on us and four lines for $25 a line per month. When you switch with eligible trade ins, all on America's largest 5G network. Minimum of 4 lines for $25 per line per month with autopay discount using debit or bank account, $5 more per line without autopay plus taxes and fees and $10 device connection charge phones via 24 monthly bill credits for well qualified customers. Contact us before canceling entire account to continue bill credits or credit stop and balance on a required finance agreement due bill credits end if you pay off devices early. CT mobile.com wow.
- [32:51]
Jill
What is this place? Welcome to Cloud 9. How exactly did I get here? You're a Toyota, a Crown driver, and.
- [32:58]
State Farm Representative
Only Crown drivers ever reach this level of pure bliss.
- [33:02]
Jill
The refined but elegant design makes you.
- [33:04]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Sit up a little straighter. It gives you a rush of confidence.
- [33:07]
Jill
As soon as you're behind the wheel.
- [33:09]
Dr. Laurie Santos
And a feeling of all eyes on you. That's how the Crown transports you here.
- [33:13]
Jill
It's pretty awesome, right?
- [33:15]
State Farm Representative
The captivating Toyota Crown Family Toyota let's go places.
- [33:21]
Jill
A few things are standing out to me in what you're describing here. First of all, knowing what you can pay, of course once you've realized what you are actually responsible for, because sometimes they might charge you for things you're not responsible for. But then once you figure out this is what I actually owe, going to them with a number, which is classic negotiation tip for any type of thing that we're trying to negotiate, having that number, not just going and saying I don't know what can you do and then going from there, but also recognizing that number, this is available to us and there is no shame in pushing for lower rates because you might not actually have to pay that high rate. And why would you, if you're not able to, if the organization, the company, the hospital has ability to give it to you at a discounted rate. I think the thing that stands out to me is just the time and energy that all of this takes. The know how of going through the paperwork, of finding the phone numbers, of sitting on hold, of doing the research and it's worth it. And we've seen that it's worth it. But especially when you might be going through a time that is physically demanding or exhausting and you've got various medical concerns. I think it's a big deal and I don't know if there's much that can be said or a magic wand that we can wave over that. But, but community, hopefully someone to sit by your side as you're going through all this paperwork. But yeah, there's, there's a couple of layers here yeah.
- [34:59]
Dr. Laurie Santos
The most difficult about this is that this happens to us. This is done to us not by accident, just because they know they can get away with it, frankly. And in addition, they know they can get away with it more likely because it's when we're at our most vulnerable. You know, we're sick, we're tired, we're scared, we're in pain, we're grieving, you know. And why do they do it? Well, it works. It works. I was talking actually with my husband, who's a 35 year law enforcement veteran, and you know, we talk about, you know, laws, federal laws versus state laws, that kind of thing. And I said to him, I said, you know what? I've been going through a lot of medical bill mistakes and going through, you know, looking at bills and saying, well, this is a mistake. And if you can imagine, 80 to 90% of every medical bill generated in this country has mistakes. And if you can imagine, they're not going to be in the favor of the patient. Right. They're going to be in the favor of the provider and, or the insurance company. I was talking to them and I said, you know, it just hit me. Why should consumers, patients be given bills that don't have CPT codes? If there is zero insurance company in this country that would ever, ever even consider a bill, submit it from the provider that doesn't have CPT codes, then why do they generate them and send them to the patient? Why do they generate two different kinds of bills? One that's not a real bill. I call it a summary bill. Sometimes I'll call it a detailed summary bill. It doesn't matter. It doesn't have CPT codes. It's not a real bill. Why generate something separate that you just send the patients if it's not the same thing that you send the insurance companies, the insurance companies you always send. If you want to get paid as a provider, you're going to send the insurance companies bills with CPT codes, Right? So why do we generate, why do providers, healthcare facilities, generate bills that have no CPT codes to patients? Because it works and because by law there's no law requiring them to do it. I thought, you know what, there needs to be a federal law to have the same bill that is sent to insurance companies sent to the patient, just so there's no confusion, Right?
- [37:26]
Jen
Yeah.
- [37:26]
Dr. Laurie Santos
And my husband's like, oh, good luck with that virgin on the political climb. He says, you may be able to do it state by state. He says, you can start somewhere. But I love that these are the.
- [37:35]
Jill
Conversations you're having at home with your husband.
- [37:37]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Don't have a conversation for another day.
- [37:40]
Jill
Go ahead and try it years down.
- [37:42]
Dr. Laurie Santos
The road, you know, something else to work on in my spare time. Right, right.
- [37:46]
Jen
But it is smart to realize these things because as consumers, we don't know. We don't see a ton of bills. Like, if you don't work in the healthcare industry, you have no idea, you know, that what CPT codes are or the huge book full of CPT codes. Like, there's so many of them.
- [38:06]
Dr. Laurie Santos
There's exactly. There's more than 300,000 CPT codes. And you don't have to remember, you don't have to know any of them. You just have to know where to find it. You know, it's not, you know, how does it go? It's not what you know. It's, you know, who you know. Right? Well, you know, Dr. Google. You'll take a CPT code and you'll Google it. You don't need to remember, you don't need to memorize any of them. So I use the analogy, Jen, of going to a car mechanic, right? So your car doesn't work. It's not doing something it's supposed to do. You take it to the mechanic. Well, you don't have to know fancy mechanic words and how the car runs and that kind of thing to know, number one, what you're able to pay for it. Right. You don't need to know fancy medical words and CPT codes. You don't have to have them memorized and know what they are to be able to understand what fits in your budget when you have to pay for your career.
- [39:02]
Jen
I know I can go to a car dealership and be like, I can't afford a car that's more than $20,000. And they will do, you know, they will tell me what I need to compromise on to stay in my budget. And it's just not the same with health care.
- [39:18]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Exactly. That's, you know, Jen, that's the exact, that's the exact analogy I use. I say, you know what, when you go to a car dealership, we know personal financial literacy. We know that if you're buying a new car or old car, you are expected to negotiate. There's just basic things you're supposed to know. And you don't think that. Well, I don't know anything about how cars work. I don't know any fancy car terms, but I know that I want, like a big car with a big engine. So I know I want a V8. You don't have to know how the V8 works and all the little fancy things connected to it to know how much you can afford to pay to stay in your budget, to stay in your spending plan for you and your family.
- [39:59]
Jill
And some of us just want good cup holders. That's all I need.
- [40:03]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Hey, you know what? I didn't want to, but I had to buy a new car. My baby, my favorite. Bella. I was diagnosed with a terminal disease, so I had to let her go. So I had to get a replacement. I call her Bella Junior. So when I was checking out Bella Junior at the dealership, the guy was like, hey. And showing me all the features, everything he says. And it has a sunglass holder for your sunglasses. I was like, ah, sold, done. I kept playing with the sun glass holder.
- [40:33]
Jill
It's the little things.
- [40:34]
Dr. Laurie Santos
It's the little things. I'm with you. I'm with you, Jillian.
- [40:39]
Jen
So say somebody has a medical debt that's been. It's been longer than six months, and you know, they've already sent it off to collections. What is a person's move then? Should they, you know, it's on their credit report. How do they get it off their credit report? How do they deal with it? What's. What's the next. What's the move there?
- [41:00]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Okay, so this, I'm going to talk about the old number. So as of July 1, as of last week, it's less than a week old. The three credit reporting agencies have to. They have to wipe off, remove, and not report any medical bill or debt that's been paid off that's already in collections, that was in collections. They can't report it anymore. Once you pay it off, it doesn't stay on for seven years like other consumer debt. It gets wiped off as soon as you pay it off. The other thing is that the facilities have to wait now 12 months instead of six months before reporting it to collections or selling it to collections. So that's awesome news. I just wanted to remind us of, you know, this is something that's new.
- [41:51]
Jen
Yeah, I had no idea.
- [41:52]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff, right?
- [41:55]
Jen
Yeah.
- [41:55]
Dr. Laurie Santos
So this next thing, to answer your question, Jen refers to prior to any bills that came up before July 1, 2022, before last week. So what you would do is you really want to call and make sure that you owe that. Let me back up. If they call you, when they call, you say, hey, you owe this. It's in collections. You want to make sure you really owe it. So they have to prove by Law. There's a federal law that's been in effect since the late 70s. It's called the Fair Debt Practices, Fair Debt Collection Practices act that says that if you get called by a debt collector they have to show send you documentation that you signed for the service or product. So you're gonna have to, you're gonna have to go just OG on them, just old school and say, hey look, I don't know anything about that. You need to send that to me in writing, show me my signature where I agree to pay for this, that I received the service, show me that. So if they don't show you that, they don't send it to you in writing, you don't know it. The second thing is, okay, so let's say they send it to you and you owe it. There are credit repair agencies that say, you know what, you're better off just working with. Let me back up their consumer journalists and folks that have experience in doing this work in consumer debt to say, you know what, instead of paying it off with the debt collector, just work with a credit repair service business company because your credit has already been dinged. So they suggest, you know what, maybe I'm even going to pay it off because it's already hit your report, your credit report and dinged your credit number, your FICO score. So some people suggest doing that. Others say, you know what, work out a payment plan, you negotiate with them and you know they bought it for pennies so you know they're going to get a little bit of something. And again, a little bit of something is better than nothing. If you found out you did, you went through the steps, you found out you did owe it, you really, if you can, if you can. This is more difficult to do. To get the real bill with your signature with CPT codes that that's ideal. But if they have a signature from you and it looks like okay, yes, this documentation I signed for these medical, these care services. If you can, I go back to step three, applying the three steps again. If they can't give you CPT codes, then you know, with the, you know, the documentation that they have that you think that you really do owe, you receive those services. Take it down. Step two, what the services you receive, what prices Medicare pays for it or you can go up to two times Medicare rate if you're so inclined to start there with your step three negotiation, say okay, I'm able to do this interest free because you're already ding my credit interest free payment plan and it doesn't matter how long it takes you stay in your budget. Don't let them wipe out your. Frankly, you know, Americans want to. We love our nurses and we appreciate our docs. You know, they save, they can save our lives and we're grateful. But just because the facility and or the provider saved your life doesn't mean that you should destroy your financial life and give up your life to pay them. Right. So don't give up your, don't compromise or risk your ability to get to work the roof over your head. So make sure you can make your mortgage, you have a budget, your spending plan that includes your budget. I mean your mortgage or your rent, your car payment, your ability to get back and forth to work. Medical bills come last, frankly, you've got to make sure that you stay with your ability to stay healthy. And if you're financially stressed, you're going to, you're not going to stay healthy. So protect your ability to keep a roof over your head, your ability to get to and from work, pay those bills first and then work out something that you can cover those. That medical debt collection is saying that you owe, but some people say if you've already got, if it's already gone to collections, it's already dinged your credit score considered. Now I'm not an expert in this and I'm not suggesting one or another, but some folks say once it's gone to debt collectors, consider working with a credit repair agency or business company.
- [46:39]
Jen
Just yeah, definitely. If you're going to go that route, make sure it's a non not for profit like company.
- [46:44]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Oh that, yeah, big deal. Thank you for bringing that up. That's important.
- [46:49]
Jen
So I've heard and I've experienced getting like a pay in full discount. Do you recommend the interest free payment plan over possibly getting a pay in full discount for either a bill or a debt?
- [47:03]
Dr. Laurie Santos
That's up to you. Once only. Only, only. Only after you've gone through the three steps. If you've done the first two steps, sure, you know, whatever works for you. So yeah, okay, I've done the three steps. First step, I got the CPT codes describing the services that I received. Number two, I took those codes and found out what Medicare pays for those services. And so this is a fair price. So you go to three. Okay, this is what I'm willing to pay. So let's say that you got sent a bill and this is not unusual, you got sent a bill for $10,000 and you worked out the numbers, you know, did the three steps, the first two steps and you googled, actually, Medicare pays, you know, $3,000 for these services. Well, you call them back and you say, you know what, if I pay you in full, 3,000, will you take it? This is what Medicare pays. Will you take it? If you don't ask, you don't get. And then if you believe that that's what you've done the research, meaning you googled the CPT codes of what Medicare pays for them, then, and you believe that the actual fair number is $3,000. Say, look, this is all I'm willing to pay. Take it or leave it. And you'll give me a 70% discount if I pay you in full now?
- [48:25]
Jill
Yeah. For someone at that. Step two of comparing to Medicare prices, where can they go to find that information? To go back to the car illustration, is there, like, a healthcare Blue Book?
- [48:38]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Actually, there is a Healthcare Blue book. You can start there. But the Healthcare Blue Book looks at the prices that are paid or charged and paid in that particular region where you live. Medicare does a little bit of tweaking based on regions, but not a whole lot. So I usually tell people to go to healthcare.gov is the big one where I tell people they can start their search for the actual prices that Medicare pays for certain services. CPT codes. Services.
- [49:17]
Jill
Yeah. So that's where having that code comes in handy.
- [49:21]
Dr. Laurie Santos
That's why step one, call them. You know, the first step is easy. Just a phone call. Yeah. You know, you're gonna be on hold, you know, while you're in front of the tv, just put the TV on mute in a commercial and call, you know, just. And then watch. And then when they come, they pick up, you know, 10 minutes later, 15, 20 minutes later, however long it is, you can put your TV on mute and talk to them and say, I need a real bill of CPT codes.
- [49:46]
Jen
Nice.
- [49:46]
Jill
Yeah.
- [49:47]
Jen
You know what else I need? Every week, it's on the same level as this conversation.
- [49:54]
Jill
The bill of the week.
- [50:06]
State Farm Representative
That's right. It's time for the best minute of your entire week.
- [50:11]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Maybe a baby was born and his name is William.
- [50:14]
State Farm Representative
Maybe you paid off your mortgage.
- [50:16]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Maybe your car died and you're happy.
- [50:18]
State Farm Representative
To not have to pay that bill anymore. Duck bills.
- [50:21]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Buffalo Bills. Bill Clinton.
- [50:23]
Jen
This is the bill of the week, Dr. Virgy. Every week we invite our listeners and our guests to share with us their bill of the week. And we, as a billing expert, we are very excited to hear what your bill is for the week.
- [50:45]
Dr. Laurie Santos
So my bill, actually, I talk about it in my book, how to Crush Medical Debt, or I call it just crush medical debt.
- [50:53]
Jill
What?
- [50:53]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Your doctor wants you to crush medical debt. And I talk about it because it is a subset, a great example of what we talked about at the beginning of our conversation, which is surprise bills. So surprise bills, as I said, is when you go to an in network provider and our hospital facility, but they have out of network docs taking care of you, providing the service. Okay? So that's a subset of balance billing. Balance billing is when you go to an in network provider, meaning they accept your insurance and they send you a bill for the real. I call mrsp. Right? As we were talking about cars, full manufacturer, retail sticker price. They send you a bill for the balance between what their retail, their full price. I laugh, so I don't cry, really. And they send you a bill for. The provider sends you a bill for their full price, even though they're a network of your provider. So let's say that just to keep the math simple, say that I go get care and the insurance pays $10 for this particular CPT code, right? This particular service, but the provider's full price is $100. So instead of saying, oh, we're a network, we've agreed to accept whatever they pay for their members as payment in full. We accept that $10 and it is what it is, right? They send you a bill for the balance, which is $90, right? That is balance billing. So the reason why that's important is. And we talked about the surprise billing is a type of balance billing. The reason why that's important is because we can imagine it's. If it's just, you know, $100 or 200, never say, never put. Just in front of money, right? If it's just, you know, 100 or $200, okay. You know, it's gonna. You're not gonna be happy about it, but if it's thousands of dollars for the services, that's. That'll put you in bankruptcy land, debt land really quick, right? So anyway, so my medical bill mistake of I went to a hospital for emergency surgery and I got a balance bill. They tried to balance bill me. They said my. I always laugh, really. I laugh so I don't cry. They sent me a bill six months later that had one CPT code and the rest was like general. So it wasn't a real bill because it only had like one CPT code describing, you know, an inpatient stay, surgery, all this stuff, right? So I was like, okay, this is, this is interesting. This is going to be entertaining for me. So they send me a bill for 300 that said, well, our charges for your surgery and all this, and the inpatient stay is $351,000. But he put a second line in that said, this is quote, unquote, insurance adjustments, slash payments of like $260,000 or something. And then it says, patient third line, patient responsibility. And up at the top, same number, patient due within like, 30 days or something. You know, low, low price of, like, almost $90,000. Right. Oh, my gosh.
- [54:35]
Jen
So manageable, right? We just help you out.
- [54:37]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Yeah, exactly. Right. So I have to say, you know, I was. I was laughing because they didn't realize, you know, they're putting one over on the author of what your doctor wants you to crush medical debt. Right, Debt. And I was cracking up, and I had to. I was. I was working from home that day, and I had to just let it out. I had to talk to someone. So I call my best friend and I tell her the story. I said, I just got a balance bill for $90,000 from this facility that was in network, that is in network with my insurance. And I'm telling her the story and just cracking up, laughing. And she finally says, you know, Virgie, you're the only person I know who laughs when everybody else would be curled up in the fetal position in the corner crying. And, you know, I tell this story because it is a perfect example of why we have to educate ourselves. We have to have medical financial literacy, just basic three steps, and it'll save you literally sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars. If I'd gone back and applied the three steps, I would have called the provider, asked for cp, a real bill with CPT codes for everything. And not just like. I think they gave me a CPT code for, like, the tissue they took during my surgery and send it to the lab. They sent me a CPT code. They broke it out with or services and stay. 351,000. No, 350,900. And then CPT code for lab service, pathology service. $44. That was just like.
- [56:21]
Jen
That is rich.
- [56:23]
Dr. Laurie Santos
So, yeah, if I'd applied, you know, all three steps to that, I would have gotten a real bill. And then I would have figured out that, hey, when I've gotten the EOB for my insurance, that the number they were actually charging me that $90,000 was the same number that they sent the insurance company to pay. The insurance company only paid $90,000, probably less. But, you know, they figured like, nine times out of ten, it works.
- [56:49]
Jill
Wow.
- [56:50]
Dr. Laurie Santos
And they were Going to. I was sent a bill for $90,000 that I didn't owe, and they sent the same claim, the same bill to my insurance company.
- [57:01]
Jill
So you didn't actually owe any of that?
- [57:03]
Dr. Laurie Santos
No, I owed nothing. So, yeah, that's a great question. So a year later, I was talking to my best friend again about something, and I said, you know, well, yeah, that's why, you know, I. You know, I call myself the lady that got out of paying the $90,000 medical bill, and you can, too. Let me show you how. And she says, well, Virgie, by the way, she says, you didn't pay that, right? I was like, of course not. I told you I wasn't going to pay that. And she says, well, are you sure? Like, it didn't get sent to collections. Have you checked your credit report? Your credit number, your FICO score? I'm like, who are you talking to? Like what? You know you're talking to the author of Crush Medical debt, right? I said, you know, dude, I just refinance my mortgage. Last month, my credit score, my FICO score was. They said it went down from the month prior. It was now 841. And I was like, what? I mean, I missed the snapshot. I got a screenshot and sent it to her. But apparently the month prior, it was 850. So I said, there's no. They didn't. It's about. That's what balance billing is. It is. She's a lawyer. She won't let me use the word contract fraud. But let's say it is. It is not. It is not. In contract. You're. If they said when they send you a balance bill. When they send a balance bill, they. The provider send a balance bill to members of insurance companies who they contracted with to accept their insurance. Sending a balance bill is breach of contract.
- [58:50]
Jill
Yeah. I mean, recognizing that what is happening here with medical billing is not always ethical. And sometimes we think what's illegal is the same thing as unethical, and it's not the same thing.
- [59:04]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Thank you so much for saying that. And I tell folks this all the time, Jillian. It's like, you know what? The. These insurance companies and the providers know it's immoral and unethical, but they also know it's not illegal.
- [59:22]
Jen
And they spend a lot of money every year making sure it never becomes illegal. And it's your money they're spending.
- [59:30]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Exactly. Lobbyists, you know, hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. Yes, ma'am. Jen, you hit it right on the head.
- [59:38]
Jill
Thanks to Dr. Virgie we are one step closer to being educated and armed with knowledge. And we don't have to pay that $90,000 medical bill. If you all listening have a similar story to getting out of a $90,000 bill. I mean definitely call us frugalfriendspodcast.com bill but if it's anything, if it's a wrong bill, it's a double bill. It's a double double bill that you like. Whatever it is, it's the right bill. Leave us your bill. Frugalfriendspodcast.com bill.
- [60:13]
State Farm Representative
With Navy Federal Credit Union's new cash rewards plus card, you'll earn unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase, such as things like groceries, gas and everything in between. Another great thing about the new Cash Rewards plus card is you never have to pay attention to changing spend categories so you can use that 2% cash back on the things you love most, not just everyday purchases. And with a 2K spend, you'll receive $200 cash back and a Walmart plus annual membership. They also never limit how much you can earn from your spending. Wondering what the catch is? There isn't one. Learn more at navy federal.org Navy Federal is insured by NCUA now at T Mobile get four 5G phones on us and four lines for $25 a line per month when you switch with eligible trade ins, all on America's largest 5G network. Work minimum of 4 lines for $25 per line per month with autopay discount using debit or bank account, $5 more per line without auto pay plus taxes and fees and $10 device connection. Charge phones via 24 monthly bill credits for well qualified customers. Contact us before canceling entire account to continue build credits or credit stop and balance on a required finance agreement. Do bill credits and if you pay off devices early ct mobile.com Dear Toyota, I need a word with you about your Crown family. I started driving one and so suddenly I love traffic. No really, rush hour is my happy place. Intentional wrong turns feel so right. I could sit in the comfort of my crown forever, basking in its elegance, feeling on top of the world. But you see how this is strange for me, right? Who gets excited about traffic? This is on you Toyota.
- [62:03]
Dr. Laurie Santos
And send the captivating Toyota Crown family Toyota let's go places. There's joy to be had in finding the perfect gifts for the ones You.
- [62:12]
Jen
Love and Saks.com's holiday gift guide can make it easy.
- [62:16]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Whether it's surprising your hard to shop.
- [62:18]
Jill
For sister with a Chloe bracelet bag.
- [62:20]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Or gifting your partner a memorable scent from Gucci that matches their personality. Saks.com's hand picked guide can help take the stress out of the holidays, like adding instant cheer to your home with bright decor or giving yourself some comfort by bundling up in a scarf coat from ttem. Find gifts guaranteed to bring joy to.
- [62:37]
Vraylar Representative
Everyone this season@saks.com are your lingering depression symptoms getting in your way? If you're on an antidepressant for major depressive disorder and you've made some progress but your unresolved symptoms leave you feeling stuck, it may be time to ask your doctor about Vralar Cariprazine Vralar is a prescription medicine approved for use with antidepressant medicines to treat MDD in adults. Adding Vralar to an antidepressant is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms better than an antidepressant alone. Results may vary vary. Build on the progress you've already made. Ask your doctor if adding on Vralar to your current antidepressant could help give you a lift in relief. Vralar is not approved in elderly patients with dementia related psychosis or for people under 18. Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke Report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. Antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. Report fever, stiff muscles or confusion as these may be life threatening or uncontrolled muscle movements which may be permanent High blood sugar which can lead to coma or death Weight gain and high cholesterol may occur Difficulty moving, tremors, slow or uncontrolled body movements, restlessness, feeling like you need to move around nausea, constipation, insomnia, dizziness, increased appetite and fatigue are common side effects. Side effects may not appear for several weeks. For a lift in relief, ask about adding Vraylar V R A Y L A R. Visit bralar.com or call 1-877-6-Bralar to learn more.
- [64:08]
Jill
Now it's time for the Lightning round.
- [64:11]
Jen
The Lightning Round. So we are playing this is a little bit of wait, wait, don't tell me style. We're talking about negotiating medical bills and debt. For the lightning round, we want to know what's your best negotiation except experience in general. It can be medically related, but it doesn't have to be. So Dr. Virgie, we will let you go first. What was your best negotiation?
- [64:37]
Dr. Laurie Santos
My best negotiation is probably, and this is so nothing to do with medical bills because I just described my best negotiation saying no, I'm not paying any of It, Yeah, this is very funny. This will, this, oh, this will be a great story for my book. But no, you're not getting a dime because you don't owe it. Nice try, but no cigars.
- [65:03]
Jill
My brother used to say.
- [65:04]
Dr. Laurie Santos
But probably my best negotiation is being at a tax sale, a yard sale and getting. They were giving away or you know, selling a plant or something. And I was just talking with them and gave them, you know, a beautiful smile and they just said, hey, just take it. I was willing to pay 25th. I would have paid whatever it was a gorgeous little plant to kind of, you know, like a small tree kind of thing. And I'm like, oh, you know what, you've been here before. They had a sale, you know, prior, a couple months prior. And I bought something. They were like, you know what, just take it.
- [65:43]
Jill
Dr. Virgie. I don't know if that's negotiating. I think that just might be the beautiful, just the being beautiful discount that you got. I don't know that you had to put in much work for that.
- [65:54]
Jen
I would, if I could smile and get a discount, I would. That would be my favorite.
- [65:59]
Dr. Laurie Santos
If I had my old mile, you know, the 12 year old Virgie smile. That wasn't so beautiful then. Yeah, I'd have to come up with another negotiation, I think, just being kind. So there you go. Just no negotiation necessary and talking with them and you know, creating relationships.
- [66:17]
Jen
So that's fantastic. Negotiation tip is be kind and be friendly.
- [66:25]
Jill
Sometimes it doesn't even need to get to the combative stage. You just flash a smile and walk home with a free plan.
- [66:33]
Dr. Laurie Santos
So my husband says that, he says, you know, when you're at tag sales and yard sales and that kind of thing, you know, bundle it, you know. Well, I bought something already. Can you throw in this or. Okay, well how much is this? You already have a couple of things in your hand. And we just did this this past weekend. And he says, well, will you do. I think it was like she wanted $3 or $5 or done something. The third item. And he already had two items in his hand that he didn't. Hadn't asked her about the prices for. And he says, well, will you take $10 for all three? She's like, yeah, so that's my negotiation tip. Be kind relationships. And yeah, bundle.
- [67:14]
Jill
What about for you, Jen? You love negotiating.
- [67:17]
Jen
Yes, I will say my biggest one has a little bit to do with relationships. Also slightly stalking. Uh oh, you be the judge. It was our first house and I wanted that thing so bad. And our realtor at. At the time very much helped us negotiate. But when we got under contract, they still had an open house. And I went to the open house, and I, like, stocked it and just made sure that nobody else wanted it. And I talked with the flippers, who were also the sellers, and just found things we had in common. One of them had went to school with my old boss, good old Greg, and they. And so I just made sure that once the negotiation was, like, done, that I really had it on lock. That was. That was my favorite negotiation experience. And it. It ended up being. Well, we had no money at the time. We were being kind of forced out of our rental, so we had saved nothing. So we had to figure out how to get the house with little to no money.
- [68:28]
Jill
I mean, that's great when your best negotiation is on your biggest asset, your biggest expense.
- [68:33]
Jen
Yeah, yeah. And we thought we paid more, but we actually made out really good being like, two kids in their 20s getting this, like, fully flipped house. So that was. That was my favorite. My favorite negotiation experience of Travis's. And this is really the best story is that Travis sat on the phone with Sprint for six hours one time to end up with two free iPhones.
- [69:06]
Jill
That's amazing.
- [69:07]
Jen
That was money. I was time well spent for the money that was saved.
- [69:10]
Jill
Right, but who wants to sit on a phone for six hours?
- [69:14]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Yeah, but think about it. At the hourly rate, how much are those two phones worth? And divide six into what is he. So think about his job, what he gets paid. You know, break it down, divide it up his annual salary, divide it monthly. Then you can divide it into his hourly rate. Right. And then, you know, take that number, compare it to what, two iPhones together? At least $700 just to make the math easy. $600. So $600 he saved. Right. Or got product services worth $600 over six hours. That was $100. He made $100 an hour.
- [69:52]
Jen
Yep, yep. So it's crazy. And he wouldn't want to do it again, but it's. It's a story probably I tell the most about negotiating bills and stuff, because he just. I. I got home, he was on the phone. I left for a girls night and came back. He was still on the phone. It was an early girls night. Yeah, it was. It was mom's.
- [70:15]
Jill
Clearly, I wasn't with you on that girl's night.
- [70:17]
Jen
No, no. So, yeah, it was. That's the best negotiation experience. It just wasn't my experience.
- [70:26]
Jill
Wow.
- [70:27]
Dr. Laurie Santos
You learned from it, Jill. You learned the knee of the master. That's awesome.
- [70:32]
Jen
I do learn from the master.
- [70:34]
Jill
This was something for both Eric and I. We were living in 170 square feet, a tiny little trailer camper and working from home, like working remotely. So you can imagine what that looked like for both of us to be working in 170 square feet. So we needed an office space. So we were looking at rentals and ended up finding this amazing renovated barn at a very reasonable rate for us to be able to work there. Well, it was also on lots of acreage and it looked like a perfect place to also park our rv. So we negotiated for them to allow us to park our RV on the property, use the barn, the renovated barn for our co working space for the same price that they were hoping to get out of renting out the space. Just like will you let us also live there at no cost? And they did. And you know what, Dr. Virgie, it might have been some extra smiles that got us that long term relationship.
- [71:43]
Dr. Laurie Santos
We're renting your office space so why don't you throw in a place for us to live too? There you go.
- [71:50]
Jill
Yes. It was bundling and really they needed someone really specific to be able to rent because they had young kids who were playing in the driveway so they didn't want a company renting who was in and out of the driveway a lot. We were really quiet. We kept to ourselves. It's what allowed us to be able to afford the office space and still live in the trailer. So that was probably our best negotiation. Yeah, we'll rent this space from you. Can we also live here in our RV right next door for no extra cost. They were awesome. Became friends, which was great. So.
- [72:25]
Jen
Oh, I love it. I love these stories. Dr. Vir, thank you so much for joining us. Where can people get more from you and get your fantastic book?
- [72:35]
Dr. Laurie Santos
You can go to crushmedical debt.com and on Thursdays on voiceamerica.com at 5pm Eastern, 2pm Pacific. You can find me at the ask a doctor what your doctor wants you to know with Dr. Virgie show.
- [72:51]
Jen
Awesome. Yes. And definitely check out your book Crush Medical Debt. It's available on Amazon and and it's going to help so many people really escape this, this crushing medical debt. So thank you again, Dr. Virji.
- [73:07]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Now thank you so much for having me. It's been so much fun talking with you ladies. I really appreciate all that you guys do likewise.
- [73:14]
Jill
Dr. Virji, thanks for being here.
- [73:21]
Jen
I'm so glad that you got to hear that one. And again, you can get more from Dr. Ellington's website, crushmedical debt.com she has we've referred several of our listeners to her that had have had specific questions in the past and she's been so generous in answering those. So crushmedical debt.com and yeah I I hope it's it is definitely rough. I've recently been and we've both this year been inundated with some medical bills that we have had to navigate and it is crushing.
- [74:05]
Jill
Yeah. But having had recorded this interview I was much more equipped to face some of those things. I think we are better off if the medical things can be scheduled. Like that was my circumstance. I had a surgery this past year that I was able to see coming and schedule and ask the questions ahead of time. You faced some things that were just emergency situations and now you're receiving the bills afterwards. But in both scenarios knowing about asking for CPT codes and breaking down the costs and comparing it to you know what what those things are supposed to cost.
- [74:43]
Jen
Being as annoying as possible has been my honest my real takeaway is if you are not annoying you don't get hurt persistent. And I don't yeah I don't want to be annoying. I want to assume that people are doing the most for me and they just can't. They don't have the capacity to so to be as annoying as possible but with kind not to make somebody intentionally not want to help you.
- [75:09]
Jill
Again my strength, space, perspective on that is just being persistent.
- [75:13]
Jen
Yeah well we have different words for the same thing. Thank you so much for listening. We love love love reading your kind reviews. Kind of like this one from Lori T10. It's titled millennial and teacher friendly happens to be five stars. It says Jen and Jill have done an incredible job of taking money topics and making them understandable and applicable for any person of any income. I am a teacher who has been struggling with debt payoff and saving and these girls take away the shame of not being financially savvy and truly feel like I'm just chatting with the most non judgmental friends.
- [75:50]
Jill
I love that that's coming across because we're not out here judging or telling you exactly how to do it, but hopefully giving you the tools and resources to be able to implement beneficial money decisions that make sense for you. So thank you so much. Lori T10 for for those words. If you all are listening and you've not left words for us in the form of a rating and review wherever you're listening, that'd be so, so helpful. Not only does it provide us more content for every episode that we record because we read them during our episodes, but it also helps other people find this podcast, know whether or not it's right for them. So thanks for doing that.
- [76:30]
Jen
Yeah. And we will see you next time and next year. No, we'll see you before, but we will not see you before the holidays. So I hope you have a fantastic holiday tomorrow. And if you've already had it, I hope it was really special and you.
- [76:53]
Jill
Can make it even more special.
- [76:53]
Jen
BuyWhatYouLoveBook.com Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Sears Biryani.
- [77:10]
Jill
Okay, Jen, I had a medical event this week where first of all, I Woke up at 4:50am oh gosh.
- [77:24]
Jen
Yeah, Okay. I was like, oh, this is worrisome.
- [77:26]
Jill
I, I went to exercise publicly, which, you know me. This is again, Jill speaking. I don't do that. I exercise in the privacy of my own home.
- [77:38]
Jen
I was really shocked. I was really shocked by this.
- [77:41]
Jill
Everyone's surprised, surprised that I went and worked out. So a friend invited me. It was a free class because it was the first time that I was visiting. And she goes regularly. She's like, hey, you want to join me? And for whatever reason, it was just like, yeah, you know what? I want to try something new, different. I want to do something that scares me. I did ask her, like, is it going to be scary? Because it is one of those kind of crossfit adjacent type of gyms. But I did it. I did something that scared me. It worked out. No one was paying attention to me, which is great, except for the trainer. A couple of times she came over, she was like, you good?
- [78:22]
Jen
You good?
- [78:22]
Jill
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm good.
- [78:23]
Dr. Laurie Santos
I'm good.
- [78:24]
Jill
I'm just out of breath. So anyways, what I'm about to say really has nothing to do with that. Well, but I will tie it in. So I get home, I get home at like 7:15. It's still so early. The sun has just now come up and I'm like, awesome. So much more time in the day for activities. I'm going to put the dishes away. Well, a few days before, I had made sourdough bread and I do have a razor scorer, a thing to score my sourdough bread with. That's very, very sharp. And I was pulling out one utensil and that one fell and sliced my fingie, my middle finger, the one that I realized I use the most for all sorts of stuff. That middle finger is putting in some overtime. Sliced it real good. Like, it is a. It's a sharp razor. And I think it, like, went to the bone. Thankfully, just, like, kind of on a knuckle.
- [79:20]
Jen
It did not go to the bone on a knuckle.
- [79:22]
Jill
I think it's bruised it, like. Like, was that the bone? Anyways, Eric heard me. He came out, and it was a lot of gushing that was happening, but tried to dry it up as quick as possible while it's still actively bleeding. Super glued it together. Because that's what we do in the Sirianni household. We have super glue in our first aid kit. When we slice our. We slice ourselves real good. And we're not trying to get ourselves into a situation where we have to spend persistent time negotiating medical bills.
- [79:59]
Jen
Did you put super glue in your first aid kit because of the dishwashing incident when you were renovating that house?
- [80:06]
Jill
Mm. Eric had used super glue before too. So this was just like a super.
- [80:13]
Jen
Glue on your finger?
- [80:16]
Jill
Yeah, it's on that same hand. Can you see those scars?
- [80:19]
Jen
Your poor fingers?
- [80:21]
Jill
My fangies. Yeah, they're gonna look a little gnarly because we just do our own stitching with glue.
- [80:26]
Jen
They're great, though. They're fantastic.
- [80:29]
Jill
So my takeaway here's how I'm tying it in is I shouldn't have been up so early.
- [80:32]
Jen
Well, agreed. I did a 6am class once when I did CrossFit and I was doing a push press, I had a barbell over my head and I brought it back, back down.
- [80:45]
Jill
You did?
- [80:46]
Jen
And no, no, it was when I was lifting it up.
- [80:49]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Oh.
- [80:50]
Jen
I totally, like, caught my chin and I started bleeding. Like, I bled.
- [80:55]
Jill
Bleeding from your chin?
- [80:56]
Jen
From the bottom of my chest.
- [80:57]
Jill
Did you also, like, bite a lip or a tongue while you.
- [81:00]
Jen
No, not that time. That could have been bad, but I. And I also brought it down on.
- [81:05]
Jill
My head with the same motion.
- [81:07]
Jen
I don't remember. But I just remember after I brought it down on my head, I was like, never again. And I have never worked out at 6am again.
- [81:20]
Jill
See, I didn't do barbells. And my friend who goes there, she was even like, CrossFit traumatized me on the barbell. I'm only doing dumbbells. And I was just following suit. I'm like, if the barbell's not for you, it's not for me.
- [81:33]
Jen
I will use barbells. Like, I still use barbells. I love barbells. That's fine. I just don't use them before the sun comes up. That's a rule now. That I have the before the sun comes up is if I'm doing a Disney race. That's it. Like even when I ask you to run, it's free and it's at 6:30 in the evening. I just invited you to one that have free cookies.
- [81:58]
Jill
Are you going to that?
- [81:59]
Jen
Yeah, probably.
- [82:01]
Jill
When is it again?
- [82:02]
Jen
I don't remember, but 14. There are cookies and you still always say no.
- [82:07]
Jill
I might do a mile. I might take you up on the invitation to a mile.
- [82:12]
Jen
You could even do. You could even push the stroller if you don't want to run.
- [82:16]
Jill
Who's in the stroller?
- [82:17]
Jen
Atlas and Kai.
- [82:19]
Jill
Oh, they would be like there. You should push them. Okay.
- [82:22]
Jen
Where are we going to take them?
- [82:24]
Jill
I don't know. I'm not thinking through the logistics of how you're going to join a cookie run. I don't know. Do you normally push your kids on 5Ks and marathons and stuff?
- [82:39]
Jen
Well, not marathons, but like a cookie run at the running company. Yeah, we did it. We took him to the turkey trot on Thanksgiving.
- [82:47]
Jill
You think Travis is gonna do the run with you?
- [82:50]
Jen
I don't know. He's having a thing with his ear. This is a little too much information for the podcast.
- [82:55]
Jill
We are talking medical stuff, Jen.
- [82:56]
Dr. Laurie Santos
So.
- [82:57]
Jen
Yeah, I don't know. He's got like a clicking in his ear, so he's been walking. But I don't know. He would love to not push a stroller. We would love. I mean, you were talking about your friend Adam and I don't even know him and we were talking about giving our kids to him.
- [83:10]
Jill
It sounds like it'd be more work to run a mile while pushing a stroller. Is that not true?
- [83:15]
Jen
I guess you'll have to find out.
- [83:19]
Jill
It's your responsibility to find out.
- [83:22]
Dr. Laurie Santos
This is Dr. Laurie Santos from the Happiness Lab. Many people have questions about how to improve levels of happiness. Living a healthy lifestyle is one sure way of increasing happiness. Penis. And a good place to start is with your oral health. Just a few small changes to your oral care routine, such as changing your toothpaste to Colgate Total, can lead to beneficial changes in your oral health. Colgate Total helps stop oral health problems like gingivitis and cavities before they start. Because preventing oral health problems is a lot easier than treating them. Be dentist ready and get colgate total@shop.colgate.com total.
- [83:58]
State Farm Representative
Hey there. Scott Patterson from I Am all in Again Podcast Life Short Talk, Fast Stream, Gilmore Girls on Hulu. That's right. Grab your coffee. And get cozy because all seven seasons of Gilmore Girls are now on Hulu Stream. All the witty, banner, heartwarming moments and awkward Friday night dinners with Lorelei, Rory and the eclectic mix of characters. Whether you're rewatching or going Gilmore for the first time, Hulu has you covered. It's a show. It's a lifestyle. It's now streaming on Hulu.
- [84:34]
Dr. Laurie Santos
When you're with Amex Business Platinum, you get five times membership rewards points on flights and prepaid hotels booked on amextravel.com so going the extra mile for your business is even more rewarding.
- [84:44]
Jen
That's the powerful backing of American Express Turn Supply.
- [84:47]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Learn more@american express.com AmExBusiness did you know.
- [84:50]
Jen
That parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult lesson life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids instantly, set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending. With real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money. With guardrails in place, sign up for Greenlight today@Greenlight.com Iheartra Wasabi Technologies is purpose.
- [85:22]
State Farm Representative
Built to free businesses from skyrocketing storage costs and unpredictable egress fees from those old and top heavy legacy providers. You know the big guys. Wasabi is the go to provider for professional and collegiate sports teams around the world. From Wasabi's AI enabled intelligent media storage, Wasabi Air, to the industry's only cloud storage service with triple protection against cybercriminals, Wasabi is driving innovation in data storage, all for up to 80% less than those other guys. Try them out for free@wasabi.com.