Start Healing Your Money Trauma with Shannah Game

Summary

Frugal Friends Podcast: Start Healing Your Money Trauma with Shauna Game

Release Date: February 25, 2025
Hosts: Jen Smith & Jill Sirianni
Guest: Shauna Game, Financial Planner and Money Trauma Specialist

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Introduction

In Episode 488 of the Frugal Friends Podcast, hosts Jen Smith and Jill Sirianni delve into the intricate and often overlooked topic of money trauma with expert guest Shauna Game. The episode, titled "Start Healing Your Money Trauma with Shauna Game," provides listeners with profound insights into how financial experiences, both big and small, can leave lasting emotional scars and affect one's relationship with money.

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Understanding Money Trauma

Shauna Game opens the discussion by redefining money trauma, emphasizing that it doesn't solely stem from significant financial hardships like growing up in poverty or experiencing severe financial stress within a family. Instead, she highlights that even minor financial mishaps—such as accidentally missing a bill payment leading to a drop in credit score—can trigger a traumatic response (Shauna Game, [00:08:23]).

Notable Quote:
"Money trauma can arise from anything that causes emotional pain and distress related to finances, whether it's major hardships or seemingly small incidents."
— Shauna Game, [00:08:23]

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Signs and Symptoms of Money Trauma

The conversation shifts to identifying signs of unresolved money trauma. Shauna outlines several indicators, including:

• Avoidance: Steering clear of financial tasks or avoiding checking bank statements.
• Bodily Sensations: Experiencing anxiety, stress, shame, or nervousness when dealing with money.
• Spending Patterns: Engaging in overspending or underspending as coping mechanisms.
• Difficulty Setting Goals: Struggling to establish and achieve financial objectives.

She introduces the analogy of being "stuck on one side of a bridge," unable to reach financial goals due to underlying money traumas.

Notable Quote:
"Recognizing these signs is the first step in understanding and addressing the root causes of your money trauma."
— Shauna Game, [00:10:47]

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Impact of Money Trauma on Personal Life

Jill shares her personal experience to illustrate how money trauma can persist even after achieving financial success. She recounts paying off $78,000 in debt over two years, only to later experience guilt and PTSD-like symptoms when attempting to spend money post-debt. This underscores that financial trauma isn't solely about debt but also about the emotional connections and identity tied to financial actions.

Notable Quote:
"Even after clearing debt and achieving financial goals, unresolved trauma can lead to feelings of guilt and fear when handling money."
— Jill Sirianni, [00:13:42]

Shauna echoes this sentiment, emphasizing that acknowledging and validating one's feelings about money is crucial for healing.

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Healing from Money Trauma

Shauna outlines a step-by-step approach to healing money trauma:

1. Acknowledgment and Validation: Recognize and validate your feelings around money without judgment.
2. Identify the Root Causes: Determine the origins of your money trauma, whether they stem from past experiences, relationships, or ingrained beliefs.
3. Practical Exercises:
   • Financial Forgiveness: Allocate time to write down financial regrets or negative feelings, revisit them after 24 hours, and then dispose of the writings to release emotional baggage.
   • Money Hero Story: Craft a narrative that defines your desired relationship with money, focusing on values, goals, and healthy habits.

Notable Quote:
"Healing from money trauma involves both emotional acknowledgment and practical steps to redefine your relationship with money."
— Shauna Game, [00:20:28]

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Money Trauma in Relationships

The discussion extends to how money trauma affects personal relationships, particularly among couples. Shauna highlights common dynamics, such as:

• Separate Accounts: Couples may keep finances separate to avoid arguments, which can lead to deeper misunderstandings.
• Defensiveness and Conflict: Without understanding each other's financial traumas, disagreements over money can escalate.
• Strengths and Blind Spots: Recognizing each partner's financial strengths and weaknesses can foster a supportive environment.

Notable Quote:
"Understanding your own and your partner's money personalities can transform financial conflicts into collaborative solutions."
— Shauna Game, [00:34:10]

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Personal Stories and Experiences

Throughout the episode, both hosts and Shauna share personal anecdotes that illustrate the pervasive nature of money trauma:

• Jen's Identity with Money: Jen discusses how tying her identity to her financial success led to anxiety when she couldn't continue achieving the same goals, prompting her to shift her focus toward more meaningful pursuits like the FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) movement.

• Jill's Career Regrets: Jill reflects on her decision to pursue a lower-paying career in social work, initially feeling financial regret, but later finding gratitude in the personal growth and fulfillment it provided.

Notable Quote:
"By reframing financial decisions through gratitude, we can transform regret into a foundation for healthier money relationships."
— Jill Sirianni, [00:25:35]

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Practical Steps for Healing

Shauna provides actionable advice for listeners seeking to heal from money trauma:

• Journaling: Encourage listeners to engage in free writing about their financial fears and regrets without self-judgment.
• Incremental Exposure: Gradually increase the time spent on financial tasks to reduce anxiety.
• Reward Systems: Implement small rewards after completing financial exercises to reinforce positive behavior.
• Reframing Finance: Shift the narrative around financial setbacks by identifying unintended benefits and learning opportunities.

Notable Quote:
"Small, consistent steps can lead to significant breakthroughs in how we engage with money."
— Shauna Game, [00:32:49]

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Lightning Round: Personal Money Decisions

In a lighter segment, the hosts engage in a lightning round, sharing recent money decisions that initially caused shame but led to personal growth:

• Shauna's Overspending: Shauna admits to spending beyond her means on unnecessary items as a cathartic release, acknowledging the ongoing challenge of balancing expertise with personal behavior.

• Jen's Roth IRA Adjustment: Jen shares her decision to pause contributions to her Roth IRA to prioritize family time, reflecting on the need to sometimes forsake optimal financial strategies for present happiness.

• Jill's Guilt-Free Vacation: Jill discusses a recent European vacation funded by dedicated savings, highlighting the importance of allocating funds for personal enjoyment without guilt.

Notable Quote:
"Allowing ourselves the freedom to make less-than-perfect financial decisions is essential for holistic well-being."
— Jill Sirianni, [00:49:47]

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Conclusion and Resources

The episode wraps up with Shauna promoting her book, "Unraveling Your Relationship with Money," and her extensive podcast, offering listeners further resources to explore their financial traumas. Jen and Jill also mention their own book, "Buy What You Love Without Going Broke," inviting listeners to leave reviews and engage with their content for continued financial empowerment.

Notable Quote:
"Understanding and healing our relationship with money is an ongoing journey that empowers us to lead richer, more fulfilling lives."
— Jen Smith, [00:54:09]

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Final Thoughts

Episode 488 of the Frugal Friends Podcast serves as a comprehensive guide to recognizing and healing money trauma. Through expert insights, personal stories, and practical exercises, listeners are equipped to transform their financial anxieties into empowered, healthier relationships with money. Shauna Game's contributions provide invaluable tools for anyone seeking to navigate the emotional complexities of their financial lives.

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For more information, visit FrugalFriendsPodcast.com and subscribe to the podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Shauna Game]

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[Jen]

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[Shauna Game]

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[Jen]

Come hungry for season four, episode 488. Start healing your money trauma with Shawna Game.

[Shauna Game]

Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast where you'll learn to save money, embrace simplicity and live a richer life.

[Jill]

Here are your hosts, Jen and Jill.

[Jen]

Welcome to the Frugal friends podcast. My name is Jen.

[Jill]

My name is Jill.

[Jen]

And today we are talking about money traumas. Not just big ones, but small ones as well.

[Jill]

Yeah, big T, little T. How to even identify if you've experienced money trauma, how to heal from it. So really, really great conversation that I think we'll all get a lot out of. But first, this episode is brought to you by people in your corner. The ones cheering you on, providing encouragement, creating a distraction so no one sees that embarrassing near fall. Need some more people like this. It us. It us, Jen and Jill giving you the friend letter to your inbox weekly with updates on freebies and deals, tips on how to spend better, ways to improve your relationship with money. So get us in your corner. Frugalfriendspodcast. Com. Sign up for the friend letter.

[Jen]

Yes. All right, so before I wanna just preface this by saying, like, sometimes money trauma, sometimes the word trauma can be like a heavy word. But this really does encompass all of our Shauna says it money icks. If trauma feels too heavy of a word, you can also describe it as an ick ick. And I think even like, I got to learn some language to talk about some of the things that I've felt about money in the past. So I think this is a really good interview. If you are encouraged by this episode and you want to queue up a couple others for later, we've got episode 482, how our nervous system impacts our spending, and episode 473, how to become a better financial decision maker. That's with Jessica Morehouse. And those are two really, really good ones to queue up for later. So let's get into it. Shauna is a financial planner. She's a certified trauma of money specialist and author of the upcoming book unraveling your relationship with money, all about money traumas and the things she's talking about today. She has over 20 years of expertise in the industry and she just, she doesn't let give her jargon. She really does have a relatable, no nonsense approach to money. So her book is already out, already available, and we just hope that if this is something that you feel like you need more on, that is definitely where to go. So without further ado, let's get into it.

[Jill]

Let's talk to Shauna.

[Jen]

Shauna, welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. We're so excited to have you.

[Shauna Game]

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[Jill]

This is a conversation I'm surprised we.

[Jen]

Haven'T really had, especially with Jill, on this show for almost 500 episodes.

[Jill]

I mean, we touch on these types of conversations, but we've never had an episode titled something like this. So it absolutely makes sense that we would have you on Shauna to help us through this conversation as well. So glad that you're here.

[Jen]

Yes. Okay, so let's start out with what kinds of life events or experiences can cause money trauma?

[Shauna Game]

This is what's really interesting because I think a lot of times people think that it has to be something big, right? Like that maybe you grew up in poverty or there was a lot of financial stress in your family. And those things for sure are indicators of money trauma. But it could also be something that is seemingly small. For instance, let's say you forgot to pay a bill and then it went to collections or your credit score dropped, right? And it was just a complete accident. But every time you look at your bank statement or your phone app, you feel these somatic, like, inner body experiences. Like your hands start, you know, your palms get sweaty and your heart starts racing and your shoulders get tight and there's something going on, right? It's causing this traumatic response in you from this seemingly small event. So it could be, you know, both of those things on, on either spectrum and anything in between. It could be maybe you were in a relationship with someone and maybe there was some level of financial abuse or even they just made you feel really terrible, horrible for how you spent your money or, you know, debt you might have been in or your student loan. Any of those things that, that cause this emotional kind of pain and distress inside of you is trauma, money trauma showing up. So it could be so many different situations. And that's why I think, taking a moment of having awareness. So when you go to look at your app, the next time of your bank, or you're in a conversation with someone, or maybe you're out with your friends and you start to feel those bodily sensations or something going on inside that feels anxiety, shame, judgment, nervousness, that's your cue to go, huh? Okay, what is actually going on here? And where is this even coming from?

[Jill]

Yep. Money situations can cause a disruption to our sense of safety and security and put us in this kind of hyper vigilant mode of almost fight flight, freeze. I've experienced this at times with, you know, unexpected, really large bills of, oh, no, what is going to happen to me? And, you know, over time, you know, the bodily remembrance of that experience and, you know, what that then did to me and my way of thinking and then what kind of actions that caused. And then kind of how we might end up living out of that place too, is, you know, if we don't kind of recognize it as a trauma, which I think you're kind of helping us to identify, like, these are disruptive experiences and can, yeah, really cause us a bit of chaos inside of ourselves. And if we don't acknowledge that, then how. What kinds of habits and behaviors then form as a result of that?

[Shauna Game]

Yeah. This is also another really interesting one. We all talk about emergency funds and how important emergency funds are. A lot of people actually experience a sense of trauma around spending or needing to spend their emergency fund. They feel a lot of shame, a lot of guilt, and their brain goes into that fight or flight mode of, what if I need this money down line? What if another emergency comes up and it creates this trauma where it's in fact, so difficult to even move money from emergency fund to checking account. And a lot of people will then just turn to credit cards. The. The idea of being in credit card debt actually feels better to them is less of a traumatic response than spending money from a savings account. So there's all these really sneaky ways, which is, I think, what makes this so difficult to, like, put a container around. And that's why I really suggest just paying attention to what's going on in your body and where you are and who you're around and, you know, kind of the whole environment of what's happening in those situations?

[Jill]

Yeah. Speaking of paying attention, what would you say are some of the signs that someone might be struggling with some unresolved money trauma?

[Shauna Game]

Obviously avoidance. Right. So if we're avoiding looking at our money or we're avoiding doing some of the tasks around money that we know are important, we've talked about the bodily sensations, so anxiety, stress, shame, judgment, fear, nervousness, any of those things. But then also something that, you know, kind of correlates with your show. Patterns of overspending or underspending could be signs that, you know, there's some sort of money trauma going on there that needs to be investigated, and then also a difficulty of setting and achieving money goals. So I often tell people that, you know, think of money trauma this way. You're on one side of a bridge and you really want to get to the other. Side of the bridge, you've got these things you want to do with money, but you just. You can't figure out how to get there. Whether it's paying off debt or saving to buy a house or whatever it is, or it's your, Your spending or, you know, relationship around money with your partner. There's something that's keeping you stuck on one side of the bridge that's a good indication that there's some. Some sort of money trap. There's something underneath the onion layers there that's worth looking into that is stopping you from being able to get to the place that you really want to get to.

[Jen]

Yeah, I. I see this. I think even when people are financially successful, I. I see a lot of money trauma, and sometimes the success is a result of it, and people don't think about that. Like, even after we paid off our debt, we paid off, my husband and I paid off $78,000 in two years. And afterwards, I thought, okay, all of my problems are solved. My money is fine. I'm at, like, net zero. I own a house. I'm fine. And now when I go to spend, I feel guilty because for two years, my money had this ultimate purpose and I had nothing else to focus on but this one financial goal. And now I have some, like, PTSD from not having. From overvaluing that financial goal too much for those two years and not having a one to, like, fall back on as seriously. And so that's what led me to the fire movement. I wasn't dealing with that. I just transferred it to another good financial goal. And it wasn't till I got laid off that I actually was forced to deal with it because then I could no longer afford to be, quote, unquote, financially successful anymore. Like, to me, that is, I. Nobody was talking about that kind of trauma.

[Shauna Game]

Absolutely. How did you. I'm just curious, like, how did you. What did you do to work through it? Like, once you had that kind of aha moment, this is what's happening.

[Jen]

Well, and a lot of it. So a lot of that working through it is. Is made it into our book. And it was. I placed my value and my identity in how good I was at saving. And before. I didn't have a money identity before. I was just spending and I was making budgets and not sticking to them. And then I. I succeeded at something financially. So then, okay, I've succeeded in this. So now my identity is in this. So now I have to keep succeeding in it. And so then I couldn't have that as my identity anymore. So then I would love to say that I dealt with it, but then I just started freelance writing and being my own boss and I put my identity and my success there. And it was when I got burnt out there very quickly with a newborn that I had to be like, oh my gosh, I'm just transferring my identity from success to success. I have to figure out who I truly am and what I truly value and what my enough is and put my identity there. If I really want to use money as a tool and not an identity.

[Shauna Game]

I love that you shared that story because that is the, that is the whole package, right? And, and, and I think a real part of when we recognize these bodies, bodily sensations, or these things that might be causing trauma, a really important piece is just the acknowledgment and the validation of these feelings that these exist. And that again, that doesn't make me a terrible, horrible person. It's just I experienced something or my money story from growing up. These were beliefs and values that I've transferred over from my parents or that I saw and heard. And they're playing out in my money, in my interactions with money. So I think we tend to overlook that really important piece that you're talking about of acknowledging and validating how you're feeling, because that's the first place of going. Okay, well, now what do we do from here?

[Jen]

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[Jill]

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[Jen]

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[Jill]

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[Shauna Game]

Hey y'all, I'm Maria Fernanda Diaz. My podcast when youn're Invisible is my love letter to the working class people and immigrants who shaped my life. I get to talk to a lot of people who form the backbone of our society but who have never been interviewed before. Season 2 is all about community organizing and being underestimated. All the greatest changes have happened when a couple of people said, this sucks. Let's do something something about it. I can't have more than $2,000 in.

[Jen]

My bank account or else I can't get disability benefits. They won't let you succeed. I know we get paid to serve.

[Shauna Game]

You guys, but like be respectful.

[Jen]

We're made out of the same things.

[Shauna Game]

Bone, body, blood. It's rare to have black male teachers. Sometimes I am the lesson and I'm also the testament. Listen to when you're invisible as part of the my Cultura program Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mark Seale. And I'm Nathan King. This is Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli. The five families did not want us to shoot that picture. Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli is based on my co host Mark's best selling book of the same title. And on this show we call upon his years of research to help unpack the story behind the Godfather's birthday. From start to finish, this is really the first interview I've done in bed. We sift through innumerable accounts. 35 pages isn't very much, many of them conflicting. That's nonsense. There were 60 pages. And try to get to the truth of what really happened. And they said we're finished. This is over.

[Jen]

It's not going to work.

[Shauna Game]

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[Jen]

I'm a little nervous. I'm excited. I'm excited nervous. You know, I'm very spiritual person, so I'm like, I'm ready and Open. That was amazing. I feel so grateful right now. I got to speak to my great grandmother Abuela, and she gave me a lot of really good advice that I'm going to have to really think about. Wow.

[Shauna Game]

Okay.

[Jen]

That's crazy. Yes, that is accurate.

[Shauna Game]

Listen to the Ghost therapy podcast as part of the My Cultura Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jen]

Okay, so what do we do from here? Like, what can someone do to start healing from money traumas? Whether they're successes or maybe quote unquote, you know, failures or. Or whatever you would define them as.

[Shauna Game]

We've talked about the piece of. Of acknowledging what's going on in my body, who I'm around, all of that, that is absolutely, like ground zero. Step one here. Once we recognize that that's happening, I think then there is a. What you're. What you just described, your process is thinking about, where does this come from? Can I identify any root, any foundation of what this is? Is it a person? Is it a place? Is it a thing that happened to me? Is it a belief? Like, you know, I love journaling, so I think this might be a great if. If somebody listening is into journaling of just kind of free writing without. Without judging yourself of thinking about, you know, from that curiosity, perspective. You talked about that on my show of investigating it almost, if you were an outside person and you were kind of looking at the set of facts and trying to decipher where they came from. So doing that. And then I think once you have this understanding of where this came from, there's a lot of different exercises depending on the type of person that you are. There's an exercise I talk about in my book, unraveling your relationship with money, which is financial forgiveness. So it's pretty simple, but it actually is pretty powerful. And there are scientific studies behind exercises like this, but it's setting a timer on your phone, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, it doesn't matter. Whatever feels good to you, and writing out all of the things that you feel really bad about money, maybe things that you spent money on or mistakes that you made or, gosh, my parents did this around money, and now I'm doing the same thing. Like, just write it all out without any judgment. Step away from that assignment. When the timer goes off for 24 hours, come back, reread this with a fresh brain perspective. And then the last step is, we got to get rid of it. Shred it, burn it, throw it in the trash. I don't care what you do with it, whatever feels cathartic to you. But there's a lot of scientific studies behind getting stuff that's in our brain that we just rumorate on getting it out onto paper and letting some of these things go. And then another thing I talk about is, you know, when we're dealing with money trauma, we're talking about events and situations that happened in the past, things that we have, we have been through. So that stuff we cannot change. But going forward, we have a lot of self control over what we do going forward. And so if you are somebody who's a journaler, I love creating what I call your money hero story. So this is writing the story for yourself of what it looks like in your relationship with money, what it looks like for you to define enoughness, to define wealth, to figure out what you value spending money on all of these things, write that story and be your own hero of what this journey looks like going forward.

[Jill]

I so appreciate how you're acknowledging that in the midst of trauma we can also come across shame and regret and maybe even mistakes or failure. Although we don't view those things as negative things, but the weight that they can cause for us, that there's so much wrapped up here, but that they need to be acknowledged and ventilated and looked at and then dealt with whether by like, we're going to turn a new leaf, we're going to move forward. But I think I realized this even in writing the book that, that we just put out kind of some of the financial regret that I have. I don't know that with this particular piece I would call it a money trauma. But sometimes I wish that I had chosen a career path that would have been a little bit more lucrative for me instead of the social work career that, you know, paid me $24,000 a year. And yet also being able to. I think it wasn't until I said that like, oh man, this kind of stinks. Sometimes I wish I had chosen something different to then like you're saying, give myself that space, come back to it and say, but what did it provide? And almost this new gratitude to I was able to do work and engage with people and be a support and help truly help people in difficult situations as a result of this. And so yes, there was sacrifice, but there was also a becoming that happened inside of me as part of that. And so I think I'm just kind of underscoring the process that you're describing to say that when this happens, new perspective can come and Gratitude can even be paired with what we might have previously thought was poor decision making or financial regret or things we were previously ashamed of. We can bring new lenses to that and a new narrative to it and then have like a healthier foundation to be able to move forward from.

[Shauna Game]

And I think that's such a great perspective because, you know, a couple of things I want to say. If money trauma feels for a lot of people, that feels like a very heavy word, right? When we're talking about trauma, it feels like, so I tell people just think of it as like, you know, financial ick. Like when you get those ick ick feelings, right, if the word trauma feels too big for you. But I think the, you know, we've been so trained, especially around money to think negatively of ourselves, to think that we have made mistakes and that that's the worst thing ever. And our brain is really trained to, to act out every day in that perspective. So it takes some heavy lifting. It's like training for a marathon. We don't just go out and run, you know, 26 miles. The same thing with trying to re regulate our nervous system around money and also our brain around money and our interactions, our habits, all of those things, they're going to take time. So when we, when we notice these, these areas, I think it's important to focus on tiny little wins. So when you're talking about, you know, renaming things, a way that money trauma shows up a lot of times is debt. People have debt. And that obviously is a very traumatic, heavy experience. Jen, you were sharing your story around debt, but I think we can get stuck in the, the, the trauma feeling of that. And Jill, you're talking about gratitude piece. Like what if, you know, and I know this is crazy for most people to think this way, but what if we looked at our debt and said, okay, I don't like it, I don't want it, I want to figure out how to get a way out of it. But look at what it actually has provided. Like maybe it provided a roof or it started my business or it paid for my kids childcare or even though that's not how I wanted that to happen, it happened, right? So I can choose how I'm framing that and that starts to take away some of that emotional just power and starts to change the narrative around things that feel really big and heavy around money.

[Jill]

I love how you're describing our relationship with money. And this is such an interesting concept to me because in typical relationships, if something is not healthy, we can kind of choose to Opt out and remove ourselves from that situation and find relationships that are healthy and aren't traumatizing us. But when it comes to money, we still have to engage in it. And so it's this reworking that I'm hearing you describe of. Here's how I used to relate to money. But how can I help to make this relationship more healthy? The way that I view and engage with money? Can you describe a little bit, kind of for yourself or maybe people that you've worked with, what that shift can look like or what you've seen for people as they go from I had a toxic relationship with money. Money's still there, I have to engage with it. But now I've got a healthy relations with money. Like what that shift looks like.

[Shauna Game]

Well, you know, as I talk about my book, our relationship with money, I believe is the longest relationship you're going to have outside of your relationship with yourself. Because our whole lives we're, we're having to deal with this thing called money. So just what you're saying, Jill, like we would just opt out, right? If we were dating somebody and they said terrible things to us and they treated us horribly, we would just say bye, bye, like this is not working. Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully. But we can't do that with money. So we owe ourselves a permission slip to try to do this thing differently. And a story I talk about in my book. This is a personal story. I am a 20 year money expert. But just because I am does not mean that I don't have these hang ups around money that everyone else does. It's probably why I actually went into the career, to be honest with you. But I used to hate looking at ATM receipts because what would happen is I would look at the numbers and I would start, my brain is one of those just super analytical, overactive. I would start subtracting all of the things that I knew I needed to pay. And in a nanosecond I had myself broke, homeless. You know, everything was going to be repossessed. Like that's how irrational we can be around money. And because we don't walk around sharing this stuff with anyone else, right, we think we're our own little container. So I got divorced in my early 30s and as I left my house and the only thing I had to my name was a car with a really expensive car payment and a blue suitcase. That was all I had. I went to the ATM because I needed to take some money out. And it was that moment where I thought, okay, instead of taking these ATM receipts and Turning them into origami and shoving them into my wallet. I need to actually look. And so I thought, well, what if I. I'm a big, like, phone timer person? Like, what if I set my timer for a minute and I looked at the receipt for a minute and that was. That was the most exposure I could have, you know, that I could humanly possibly handle at that time period. So I did that, and I thought, okay, that wasn't so bad. What if I set the timer for five minutes next time? And I tell myself, you only have five minutes where you can think whatever thoughts are running crazy in your brain. Once that timer's off, we're going to let this go. And so I started to then work on these little, like, incremental exposure habits around things that felt really scary about money. And I started them teaching those to clients, like, well, what if you did this? Or, what if it was, you know, only this little time period or you had a money date, but it was 10 minutes and that was it, you know, And I started noticing that when the. The human brain could say, okay, this is my. My time frame for doing some of these things that feel really scary. And then on the other end, I would tell people, give yourself a tiny little reward. Something. Something really, you know, inexpensive, but something that you super love, because we love that aspect as humans. And so I started to see people like, oh, they're starting to cross the bridge now with just these little shifts and how they're interacting with these. These big topics around money that feel super heavy, super traumatizing to them. And so everything that I talk about in the book, the book's super personal, and I have other people's stories comes from my experience. And then me saying, okay, I have to change my relationship with money. Let me try it on other people and see if it works for other people. And, you know, whether somebody was making a million dollars or somebody was just starting out, I would see, oh, these same aha moments happen. There has to be something here that we're not taught about when we're taught traditional personal finance.

[Jen]

Yeah, it is. It is so crazy. Like, because I also, having been, like, in personal finance writing for, like, eight years, still deal with a lot of these money traumas. Like, they don't just go away. I. When you were like, I think I got into this because of them. And I was like, yeah, I think I did, too, because I was miserable paying off debt. And so I started writing about it to help people that wanted to do what I was doing, which is pay off debt but not be as miserable. So, like, they don't just go away. It. No matter how much you know about money, no matter how many podcasts you listen to or books you read, knowing more does not solve the problem. It's actually like taking these steps to learn about yourself.

[Jill]

Ooh, gotta do the work.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Speaking of relationships, and you talked about relationship, our relationship with money, but I also imagine that money trauma impacts just our actual relationships with the people around us. What have you seen with that? And what does healing look like in that regard when we do notice that these money traumas are impacting the way that we're relating with other people?

[Shauna Game]

Almost every single couple that I've either coached or are in my life have, you know, a very interesting dynamic around money. For a lot of people. There is a very, very charged feelings around this. A lot of times people will say, well, we're just going to keep our accounts separate because that way we'll never argue about money. And I'm like, no, doesn't work that way. There, there is stuff that's going to come up or what happens if one of you are disabled or lose your job. Like, we cannot avoid those situations. And I think that we feel so charged mainly because we don't understand our own money traumas or our own relationship with money or our own money story. We don't really want to think about those things because for a lot of us, that's scary. Money is already scary, so we do not want to hyper focus on those sorts of things. So if we don't know that about ourselves or we're not willing to be honest, and we've got two people involved, that's two people having the same kind of human response to money. And so that's what leads to, you know, defensiveness, arguments, divorce, breaking up, all sorts of things around money. And I really think the way to heal this with couples is coming from a place of non judgment and coming from that place of curiosity and being super interested in. Tell me about how money was talked about when you grew up. Tell me about like some of those beliefs that you carried over from, from childhood. Tell me about the things that get you really nervous or you're scared about around money. And also I think it's, you know, I talk in the book about For Money personalities. I think it's important to understand what your strengths are around money, what your partner's strengths and then what your blind spots are, because often we choose a partner that's different than us and so we can actually borrow our Strengths to help their blind spots and vice versa. But we can't do that if we're just stuck and judging the other person about a myriad of things. So I think it's really gotta come from this place of being curious, Whether that's playing a game or just having casual conversations around money when it's not so stressed is really important because this shows up in how we sleep. It shows up in our intimacy with a partner. It shows. I mean, it shows up in, in every area.

[Jill]

I am loving this exposure or looking into kind of understanding ourselves, our own relationship with money, our relationship with other people, how it's impacted. And I think just underscoring the need to give ourselves the time and space to know who we are better. And so, yeah, so grateful for how you've highlighted all of that. And you know what else I'm grateful for and so curious about?

[Jen]

I borrow from frequently. And it does strengthened me.

[Jill]

The bill of the week.

[Shauna Game]

That's right. It's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name is William. Maybe you paid off your mortgage, maybe your car died and you're happy to not have to pay that bill anymore. Duck Bills. Buffalo Bills, Bill Clinton.

[Jen]

This is the bill of the week, Shauna. Every week we yell at our listeners and our guests and we invite them to share their bill with us. And we would love to hear yours today.

[Shauna Game]

Mine actually isn't a bill, but it's a check that I received that is so fascinating. It was for 38 cents from a job I did five years ago that they forgot to pay me the extra 38 cents. And I thought it was so humorous that I actually just pasted it on the wall and thought, I am never going to spend this. I'm just gonna look at it because it just, it's like one of those things that just makes me crack up about money. And so when I feel stressful, I love having those things that are just totally laughable.

[Jill]

Oh my gosh, how ridiculous. I mean, it's very justice oriented and very mathematical.

[Jen]

What kind of job was it? Was it like freelance or something?

[Shauna Game]

It was, yes. It was a freelance job where I was an on camera host for a couple of money teaching videos. And you know what they paid me out was actually like a fairly large sum. And so with this 38 cent check was just a. Sorry. We were doing our, our records and we realized that we underpaid you. And so I thought reading the letter, like, oh, this is going to be like, this is gonna be A big check, right? And then I get to open the check and I'm just like, I said to my husband, I'm like, it's 38 cents.

[Jill]

Oh, man, what a letdown. That is crazy.

[Shauna Game]

I actually wrote them a thank you for, you know, thank you for making sure that I, I received that 38 cents.

[Jill]

Could you imagine? Yeah. If you were just fuming. These last years. They owe me.

[Jen]

I mean, there's. In finance, there's not a lot of ethics. And so what a, what a dream.

[Shauna Game]

It was such a dream. I'm like, can you actually look back in your records? Is there more money that you potentially owe me? Like, if we're going on this treasure hunt, like, can we really dig here?

[Jill]

Yes. Are you sure it was only 38 cents?

[Shauna Game]

Is the period in the wrong position? Is that. I want to know, like, could it.

[Jen]

Move it over $3 and 80 cents?

[Shauna Game]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Could it be $38?

[Shauna Game]

Could it. Let's just keep moving it to the right.

[Jen]

Yeah, let's keep moving it.

[Jill]

Could it be 3 million dol. That'd be lovely. Wow. If you all listening, have a bill that you want to share. If it's about a non bill, it's about just change that you have been owed for years. Or if your name is billfrugalfriendspodcast.com Bill, leave it for us. We can't wait. Hey, y'all.

[Shauna Game]

I'm Maria Fernanda Diaz. My podcast when youn're Invisible is my love letter to the working class people in immigrants, immigrants who shaped my life. I get to talk to a lot of people who form the backbone of our society, but who have never been interviewed before. Season 2 is all about community organizing and being underestimated. All the greatest changes have happened. When a couple of people said, this sucks, let's do something about it. I can't have more than $2,000 in.

[Jen]

My bank account or else I can't get disability benefits. They won't let you succeed.

[Shauna Game]

I know we get paid to serve you guys, but like, be respectful. We're made out of the same things. Bone, body, blood. It's rare to have black male teachers. Sometimes I am the lesson and I'm also the testament. Listen to when youn're Invisible as part of the My Cultura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome. My name is Paola Pedrosa, a medium and the host of the Ghost Therapy podcast, where it's not just about connecting with deceased loved ones. It's about learning through them and their new perspective. Join me on the Ghost Therapy podcast. Whoa. My lights in my living room just flickered.

[Jen]

I'm a little nervous. I'm excited. I'm excited nervous. You know, I'm a very spiritual person, so I'm like, I'm ready and open. That was amazing. I feel so grateful right now. I got to speak to my great grandmother Abuela, and she gave me a lot of really good advice that I'm gonna have to really think about. Wow.

[Shauna Game]

Okay. That's crazy.

[Jen]

Yes, that is accurate.

[Shauna Game]

Listen to the Ghost Therapy podcast as part of the My Cultura Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mark Seale. And I'm Nathan King. This is Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli. The five families did not want us to shoot that picture. Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli is based on my co host Mark's best selling book of the same title. And on this show we call upon his years of research to help unpack the story behind the Godfather's birthday. From start to finish, this is really the first interview I've done in bed. We sift through innumerable accounts. 35 pages isn't very much, many of them conflicting. That's nonsense. There were 60 pages. And try to get to the truth of what really happened. And they said, we're finished. This is over.

[Jen]

It's not going to work.

[Shauna Game]

You gotta get rid of those guys. Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli features new and archival interviews with Francis Ford Coppola, Robert Evans, James Caan, Talia Shire, and many others. Yes, that was a real horse's head. Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something about Mary Poppins. Something about Mary Poppins. Exactly. Oh, man, this is fun. I'm AJ Jacobs and I am an author and a journalist and I tend to get obsessed with stuff. And my current obsession is puzzles. And that has given birth to my podcast, the Puzzler.

[Jen]

Dressing.

[Shauna Game]

Dressing.

[Jen]

French dressing.

[Shauna Game]

Exactly.

[Jill]

Oh, that's good.

[Shauna Game]

Now you can get your daily puzzle nuggets delivered straight to your ears. I thought to myself, I bet I know what this is. And now I definitely know what this is.

[Jill]

This is so weird. This is fun. Let's try this one.

[Shauna Game]

Our brand new season features special guests like Chuck Bryant, Mayim Bialik, Julie Bowen, Sam Sanders, Joseph Gordon Levitt, and lots more. Listen to the Puzzler every day on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That's awful. And I should have seen it coming.

[Jill]

And now it's time for the lightning round.

[Jen]

All right, I don't know what the lightning round question is.

[Jill]

Okay, I'm gonna read it. Okay, here we go. We're all gonna answer in this vulnerability round. What's a money decision you've made recently that your younger self would have felt bad about or ashamed of? I'll let you go first, Shawna.

[Shauna Game]

So many choices here to go with, if I'm going to be super honest. I had a certain amount of money that I could have put in investing, but instead I took that check and I went out and spent it on all sorts of things that I probably didn't need. But I'm in this process of putting out my book right now. And there was something so cathartic outspending an amount of money that I probably should have invested and done something much better for and spent it on a myriad of things that I'm sure in a week I will recognize that I don't need, but I'll probably keep them because I hate the process of actually going out and returning things.

[Jill]

But now, are you ashamed of it now, like, or do you feel a sense of freedom because of the healing you've experienced?

[Shauna Game]

There's still like a little bit of a shame there. Like, oh, don't plug that number into a compound interest calculator and see what that could turn into in five or 10 years. So yeah, there's. There's a little shame there. I mean, that's the tough part about being a money expert, is you know what you should do and when you don't do what you know you should do, you really have to talk yourself off a little ledge.

[Jen]

When you're a financial expert, you're always plugging in an amount of money into a compound interest calculator. I did that yesterday.

[Jill]

I think that's the double edged sword of knowing so much about money. Or even if you're not talking about money every day, if you're getting better with your money and recognizing opportunity costs. But I think we also need to have some freedom and permission to not do the most optimized, efficient right thing with our money. Because we are human and sometimes we also need to just enjoy life in the here and now. We can't invest every single dollar or always get the best possible deal or hold out until it drops to its lowest price. Like there are just real needs in the here and now. And yeah, I think there's room for that. If I can help to de shame some of this for you, Shauna, I'm here for it. Thank you.

[Shauna Game]

I'm, I'm, I'm gonna accept it. Take me off that ledge.

[Jill]

Yes. What about you, Jen?

[Jen]

Okay, so for me, we are not going to max out our 2024 Roth IRAs. I don't know if we will invest at all in our 2024 Roth IRA. And what shame that I, I am getting over it. I. For somebody who has maxed out their Roth IRA. Two Roth IRAs every year for a while. Not well, because my husband took a lower paying job at the end of 2023 because he was overworking himself and he was miserable. And we decided, hey, we made a lot of good financial decisions before we had kids and in our early years with kids so that we could spend more time with our kids so that we could live full lives now and not once they are in college and out of our house. And so that was the decision we made. We made a literal, like a $14,000 a year cut, which is what we were basically putting into retirement. And we didn't invest last year and compound interest is still working for us. Definitely I will have to invest again. This is not a long term solution, but we gave ourselves a year to figure it out and we'll see what 2025 holds. But gosh, a few years ago I would. Oh man, I would have been a lot more scared about what the future would hold.

[Jill]

So, yeah, yeah, I have a similar answer to all of you. It just in the way that it's going to sound, but we spent money on a European vacation recently. Within the, like a couple months ago we went away and bought some lodging and some activities that actually, I will say I truly felt guilt free about. And part of that was because I did have money set aside for this very thing. But I think even to that thing of. But is this as optimized as I could have been with my money? I think I was truly able to let go of that and say, I have this money set aside for this purpose. It is to spend on this thing and I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna enjoy it. And it was so fun.

[Shauna Game]

Where did you go? I mean, now I have to ask.

[Jill]

We went to London, Switzerland and Portugal.

[Shauna Game]

Please tell me you ate some good food and of course had some delicious chocolate and indulged, of course.

[Jill]

Oh, and so much sangria. In Portugal they make some good sangria. Yeah, that was awesome. Well, thanks so much, Shauna, for being here. If people want more from you, they want to dig a little bit deeper into healing from money trauma, understanding this a little bit better. Where can they get that from you?

[Shauna Game]

You can get my book Unraveling your relationship with money. Absolutely. Everywhere books are sold. You can also check out my podcast. I have over 1200 episodes. Everyonestalkinmoney.com yes.

[Jen]

Another OG podcaster. Yeah. And you've got us beat. Like, we've got almost 500, that is. And you.

[Shauna Game]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Amazing. So much wisdom to dig in on with you. Awesome. Thanks for being here with us.

[Shauna Game]

Thanks for having me.

[Jen]

I really like that I always say that I have budget ptsd and it's a little bit of a joke, but it's also kind of what Shanna describes as one of these icks. Like, it does cause avoidance in me. I have a natural propensity to avoid keeping track of my money because of this ick that I have with budgeting and the past. Like icks that I've had with finding my identity or finding my value in my identity, in my success with money and business. I still struggle with all of that, but it is definitely to a lesser extent. And when I see it, I recognize it earlier. I can catch it earlier. And I think that's the difference. As we're going down this journey with money traumas, it's not necessarily possible to get rid of all of them, but it is possible to quickly identify and like, you know, make a shift.

[Jill]

Yeah, I think it's recognizing that our money experiences can cause a negative association and degrees of hypervigilance and degrees of experiencing kind of threat to our livelihood and our lives and our stability and security. And so, you know, I think that there can be a way to use the word trauma lightly, but then there's also a way to use it correctly. And so I think, you know, there's definitely a spectrum of what it means to have experienced trauma, but then there's also just non beneficial experiences, scary experiences, difficult experiences. And so kind of wherever we find ourselves on the spectrum, there, I think what Shauna has talked about about can be helpful in naming it, validating it, and then being able to move forward and heal from it, which in many ways is just experiencing the opposite. What can we do now that is different from the difficult experience that I've had in the past? So really, really appreciate these kind of deeper conversations that recognize, yeah, money is more than just pieces of paper in our pocket or numbers in our bank. Accounts. But yeah, there's so many other layers.

[Jen]

Absolutely. So thank you so much for listening. As you know, we have a book called Buy what yout Love Without Going Broke that is available now and we love reading your kind reviews about the podcast, but we've loved getting to read them about the book as well. We especially loved this one from Adam Harding. It says practical, simple and realistic financial advice. 5 stars. This book is a wonderful guide on how to tailor your finances to fit your ideal life. It provides easy to follow tips, a customizable framework, and helpful personal stories from the authors. Their concept of the radical middle is so helpful for your finances and so many other matters in life. Definitely recommend this book. For people who don't like budgets or constantly overspend and stress over the small expenses of life, this book proves finances don't have to be a painful slog to avoid, but can be a fun, easy to implement way to empower the life you want to lead with confidence.

[Jill]

Oh, that's awesome. Thank you.

[Shauna Game]

Adam.

[Jen]

Wow, great, great review of the book.

[Jill]

What a good summary. We really appreciate that. If you've read the book and you haven't reviewed it yet, please do so wherever you purchased it, Amazon is a great place to be able to review the book. If you don't have the book yet, go get it wherever you buy books or buy what you love. Book.com.

[Jen]

Until then, see you next time.

[Jill]

Bye.

[Jen]

Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni. So I did my nails, and I don't typically do my nails. I typically just let them be free. But.

[Jill]

Oh, are you gonna tell the story again? I just have to prepare myself.

[Jen]

Prepare.

[Jill]

Prepare the audience. Prepare yourself.

[Jen]

Prepare a story.

[Jill]

Yeah. For, like, why you decided to do your nails.

[Jen]

Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, okay, maybe. All right, I can see that it's not weird, but I was. I have been enjoying kind of longer nails. Usually I don't keep them long because I'm writing so much. I saw this, one of my friends who was one of my old editors, she was letting her nails grow out and broke one. And she then cut all her nails, which is typically what I do. And she's like, I'll be typing at least 40 words per minute faster now without the slowdown. I was like, oh man. Yes, that's it. That is. That's the struggle.

[Shauna Game]

Right?

[Jen]

But I'm not doing as much writing now. And so I was like, oh, I like to keep my nails a little long. But so I was grabbing Kai's backpack and one of my nails, like, flipped back and, like, really hurt. And I was like, oh, well, I'm not gonna keep my. I'm not gonna be able to have long nails and natural at the same time, but I'm also not gonna go to the salon. So I actually have had this powder dip system for, like, three years.

[Jill]

Yeah, you never tried it?

[Jen]

I had tried it once and I wasn't great at it. It does have a learning curve and I'm still not great at it, but I picked a very neutral color, so you can't really tell. That is the secret. Right. But my nails now are very hard and still long, and I think I'm going to practice it and try to get better. I think part of it comes down to having the right tools. Like, I think I need, like a battery operated file, like one of those things. I believe that that is the key to really getting. But I'm gonna try it a few more times and see if that is.

[Jill]

The solution so that your nail doesn't flip back.

[Jen]

Right. If I. And this is just. If I wanna have longer nails. If I don't wanna have longer nails, then I won't keep trying this. But yeah, I just. I don't want Elphaba nails, but like, something in the middle.

[Jill]

Yeah, they look nice. I can't tell that you're not good at the dip system.

[Jen]

Thank you. Yeah, they're from afar. They look good. It looks like I don't have nails actually, because I chose a new flesh color. Yeah. So it is super neutral.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Yeah. Almost too neutral.

[Jill]

Can you be too much too neutral? It's like putting makeup over your eyebrows.

[Jen]

Is what it is. It's a sad beige hand.

[Jill]

But hard, long nail.

[Jen]

But hard, long nail.

[Jill]

Well, that was fun.

[Shauna Game]

In a world of economic uncertainty and workplace transformation, learn to lead by example. From visionary C suite executives like Shannon Schuyler of PwC and Will Pearson of.

[Jen]

Iheartmedia, the Good Teacher explains the great teacher inspires.

[Jill]

Don't always leave your team to do the work.

[Shauna Game]

That's been the most important part of how to lead by example. Listen to Leading by Example executives making an impact on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, y'all. I'm Maria Fernanda Diaz. When youn're Invisible is my love letter to the working class people and immigrants who shaped me. Season 2 shares stories about community and being underestimated. All the greatest changes have happened. When a couple of people said, this sucks, let's do something about it. We get paid to serve you, but we're made out of the same things. It's rare to have black male teachers. Sometimes I am the testament. Listen to when you're Invisible on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Are you hungry? Colleen Witt here and Eating While Broke is back for season four every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network. This season we've got a legendary lineup serving up broke dishes and even better stories on the menu. We have Tony Baker, Nick Cannon, Melissa Ford, October London and Carrie Harper. Howie turning Big Macs into big moves. Catch Eating While Broke every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts. Wherever you get your favorite shows, come hungry for season four. I'm Mark Seale. And I'm Nathan King. This is Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli. The five families did not want us to shoot that picture. This podcast is based on my co host Mark Seals best selling book of the same title. Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli features new and archival interview interviews with Francis Ford Coppola, Robert Evans, James Caan, Talia Shire and many others. Yes, that was a real horse's head. Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.