The Financial Management Skill No One Taught Us with Carl Richards

Summary

Frugal Friends Podcast: The Financial Management Skill No One Taught Us

With Carl Richards

Hosts: Jen Smith & Jill Sirianni | Guest: Carl Richards
Release Date: October 24, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode tackles an under-discussed but transformative financial skill: talking about money. With behavioral finance expert Carl Richards, Jen and Jill dive deep into why open money conversations are life-changing, how discussing finances benefits not only our financial well-being but also our relationships, and action steps to help listeners break the taboo. The tone is warm, humorous, and practical, offering plenty of encouragement and real-life examples throughout.

---

Main Themes & Purpose

• Unpacking the real "missing link" financial skill that's rarely taught—honest conversations about money.
• Destigmatizing money talk by exploring its emotional roots and practical benefits.
• Practical strategies and conversation starters to help listeners build this essential skill with loved ones, friends, and even themselves.
• Featuring ideas and prompts from Carl Richards’ new book to encourage transformative self-reflection and dialogue.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Money Conversations Matter (01:26–07:50)

• Not budgeting, not investing—the game-changer is simply talking about money.
• Wealthy people routinely talk about money, benefiting from shared advice, networking, and mutual learning, which, as Jen notes, “is one of the reasons that the rich get richer… because they're talking about it and they're learning from one another and what would happen if we did too.” (03:04)
• Taboo and stigma surround money discussions, fueling avoidance and missed opportunities for growth, learning, support, and improved financial health.

The Social and Emotional Barriers (06:17–11:32)

• Most of us were actively told not to discuss money; money talk is wrapped in “identity and power and control,” explains Jill.
• Money arguments in relationships are common and often fueled by deeper concerns about fairness and responsibility, not just figures.
  • Jill: “Disagreements over spending, debt, or other financial goals were one of the most common sources of conflict—not just within money—just any type of conflict...” (06:53)

The Research is Clear: It Works (08:15–11:32)

• Sharing financial circumstances (especially aspects within our control) lowers anxiety and improves financial health (citing Cornell and National Library of Medicine studies).
• Talking about money as parents correlates with better money attitudes in kids and less anxiety in adulthood.
• Jen: “Having parents or caregivers who are relatively transparent about their family finances is correlated with lower financial anxiety, better financial literacy, and healthier money attitudes.” (10:21)

---

Interview with Carl Richards (17:36–40:18)

Why We Avoid Money Conversations (18:17–22:35)

• We approach money talks as “a conversation around math, spreadsheets, numbers,” but real discussions are emotional minefields.
• Carl: “It's sort of like touching an electric fence that you didn't know was electric… The one thing I've noticed about people who have these conversations is they've gotten clear about the idea that…I'm going to have some feelings.” (19:47–20:37)
• Tips:
  • Acknowledge up front: “No one ever taught me how to do this, so it’s going to be clumsy. Can I have permission to be clumsy?” (21:25)
  • Timeout rule: Anyone can pause the conversation if it gets heated.

Making Money Conversations Safe and Effective (22:56–27:38)

• With friends (not just partners!), start by not sharing numbers to keep the focus on experiences and feelings.

• Carl’s go-to question: “What’s your earliest memory of money?” (24:30)

  • It opens a nonjudgmental path for meaningful dialogue and is a great tool for all relationships.
  • Examples: Sharing stories about childhood, feelings around money, and family attitudes rather than specifics about income or savings.

• Carl: “You can acknowledge it and move on and call it a win. You could just be like, ‘I just had a conversation about money and nobody fought.’” (27:15)

Building Empathy and Compassion (28:39–32:45)

• The goal is not to “fix” but to understand. Empathy can reveal the real why behind behaviors—even ones that seem irrational.
• Example: A spouse’s insistence on a reliable car tracked back to childhood trauma, not superficial preference.
• Carl: “...you may fire me as a friend for what I’m about to say, but you should definitely fire me if I don’t at least ask the question…” (29:47)

The Real Payoff for Doing the Work (33:04–36:03)

• These conversations are hard but worth it:
  • They remove shame and blame, get you “unstuck,” and make budgeting easier and “fun.”
• Carl: “You are not bad with money, that doesn’t exist. You’re just asking the wrong question. You’re giving it the wrong job.” (35:01)

---

Self Reflection & Action Steps (36:20–40:18)

• Jen asks Carl to share a few practical prompts from his new book.

• Spending Practice (Number 30 in Carl’s book): Treat spending as a mindful activity—just notice your behavior without judgment.

  • “Isn’t that interesting—I just spent $9.72 at Jimmy John’s.” (38:00)

• “If you just engaged in that for 30 days of just noticing… your behavior will change, especially if your goal is not behavior change. Simple awareness will drive behavior change.”

• Redirecting Spending to Values: Align your spending with what gives you joy and meaning, not just what feels urgent or externally validated.

  • Example: Swapping noisy dinners and movies for home-cooked dinners with friends.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Emotional Triggers in Money Talk

• “Money equals feelings.” (40:35 —Jen referencing Carl’s book)
• “Two plus two never equals envy or greed or worry…” (19:18 —Carl Richards)
• “If we can kind of get over that hump and recognize that through this discomfort, I will find more comfort and peace on the other side of this.” (12:22 —Jill)

On Breaking the Taboo

• “What if you engaged in the spend—I want you to become a world class spender, right? Like, better than anybody else on the planet is spending your money in an aligned way.” (38:37 —Carl Richards)

On Empathy & Safe Conversations

• “Empathy can help unlock what’s really behind those financial decisions.” (28:33 —Jill)
• “I have a belief that we don’t have to understand somebody in order to value them.” (27:38 —Jill)

On Social Media and Financial Perception

• Jen: “The less we are talking with real people around us, the more we start to believe that what we are being served is actual reality...” (42:01)
• “We think we’re choosing what we’re being served, because of what we’re interacting with, but it is most likely that we are not.” (41:51 —Jen)

---

Practical Tips & Takeaways

• Start small and safe: Use open-ended questions (“What’s your first memory of money?”) to spark meaningful dialogue, not debates over numbers.
• Acknowledge emotions: It’s normal and important to feel things when talking money.
• Practice curiosity instead of criticism: If something doesn’t add up in someone’s money behavior, ask “I can’t make sense of this—can you help me understand?”
• Redefine your relationship with spending: Track spending mindfully, not judgmentally. Simple observation leads to better alignment and less shame.
• Let conversations evolve: You don’t have to solve or fix everything in one talk—celebrate just having the conversation.

---

Listener Engagement

• Bill of the Week Segment (46:29–48:44): Listener Taylor celebrates finding a cheaper flight and reframes a spending win as a values-focused celebration.
• Hosts’ Money Memories (51:13–56:03): Jen and Jill share their earliest memories about money—arguments overheard, the realization of scarcity, hand-me-downs.
• The episode closes with heartfelt gratitude and a relatable encouragement for listeners to keep engaging in real-life, judgment-free money conversations.

---

Key Timestamps

• 01:26–07:50 Introduction to the importance and stigma of talking about money
• 17:36–40:18 Interview with Carl Richards: Emotional roots, practical strategies, and book prompts
• 46:29–48:44 Listener “Bill of the Week” segment
• 51:13–56:03 Hosts reflect on their first money memories

---

Summary in a Nutshell

The episode reframes “talking about money” from a forbidden or uncomfortable task into a transformational life skill crucial for personal and relational growth. Through Carl Richards’ insights and heartfelt stories, listeners learn that open, safe, and emotionally honest money conversations can break generational patterns, lower anxiety, and build genuine confidence in managing money—no spreadsheets required.

---

“You are not bad with money—that doesn’t exist. You’re just asking the wrong question…”
—Carl Richards (35:01)

Transcript

[Jill]

We're spending more than ever. I hate my job. The price of everything has gone up. AI is threatening my job. It's crisis after crisis.

[Carl Richards]

Nothing is working out.

[Jen]

I can't find a We're one disaster.

[Carl Richards]

Take control of change.

[Jen]

I need a change.

[Carl Richards]

Disruption is the force of change. Stop the chaos. Stop the madness. Take control. Read James Patterson's Disrupt Everything and Win.

[Jen]

This message comes from Capital One. The Capital One Venture X Business Card has no preset spending limit, so the card's purchasing power can adapt to meet business needs. Plus, the card earns unlimited double miles on every purchase, so the more a business spends, the more miles earned. And when traveling, the VentureX business card grants access to over a thousand airport lounges. The venturex Business Card what's in your wallet? Terms and conditions apply. Find out [e-mail] venturexbusiness the financial management Skill no One Taught Us with Carl Richards.

[Carl Richards]

Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast where you'll learn to save money, embrace.

[Jill]

Simplicity, and live a richer life. Here are your hosts, Jen and Jill.

[Jen]

There's one financial management topic that almost no one was taught yet. It's the one thing that separates people who feel confident about money from those who are always feeling behind.

[Jill]

And it's not budgeting, investing, or tracking expenses. We've all tried that, and it wasn't until we learned this that it actually stuck.

[Jen]

And we are so passionate about this skill that we invited behavioral finance expert Carl Richards to unpack what this missing link is and why it changes everything about how we manage money.

[Jill]

So we're going to explore why we never learned it, how it impacts every financial decision that we make, and what small habits you can make that will help you finally feel in control. This is a part of money management that nobody talks about, but today you'll never see it the same way again.

[Jen]

Welcome, Frugal Friends. I'm Jen.

[Jill]

I'm Jill.

[Jen]

And today we're not just talking about the money management skill that no one taught us, but we were actively told not to learn it. And that is talking about money. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Don't click away. I know you were expecting something investing related or something money, like numbers. I promise if you stick with us and learn something and listen, this skill will change your life.

[Jill]

Here's the thing. Wealthy people do talk about money. I think that we often see it as something. And it is. It's very taboo. It's taught that it's taboo, stigmatized. There's a lot wrapped up in, you know, having money conversations. But the reality is that the wealthiest of the wealthy do talk about it. And I gotta believe that it's one of the reasons that the, the rich get richer, I mean, stay wealthy because they're talking about it and they're learning from one another and what would happen if we did too.

[Jen]

But when we think about talking about money, we think about like numbers. Like, it's very braggy, like this is my net worth, this is how much I'm saving and pay off debt. I have been there when we were paying off $78,000 of debt over those two years and after it, I was so obsessed with it and I was so in it that it's kind of the only thing I wanted to talk about. And I was talking about these numbers because they were top of mind and people would get a little annoyed. They never told me, but like you could just tell.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And it now looking back on it, I can see how it wasn't. I wasn't meant to be bragging. It started this, like talking about this so much is what led me to what we are doing now. Talking about money on the Internet. And, and I have realized that the way I was doing it was not the right way.

[Jill]

Well, it's how we became friends. Anytime we talk about our origin story, a lot of times it's we found somebody who we could have money conversations with and it wasn't taboo to talk about it. You were in your debt payoff journey, so was Eric and I. And to be able to find that comfort, that place of safety with a friend, I think it's one of the things that made us fast friends. So yeah, this is kind of like our episode. It is our episode, but it's ours.

[Jen]

It's our episode. And whether you want to be considered in that wealthy category or not, like, the fact is, is that there are definitely like situations in which wealthy people have the have more opportunities to talk about money. So there are investor clubs that are specifically for ultra wealthy individuals to facilitate like sharing of deals and investment strategies and stuff like that. There are conferences that are specifically for business leaders, like high net worth financial elite people where they go to network and you know, forge financial partnerships and stuff. And so maybe we're not doing those types of things right, because that's not in our income bracket. It does not absolve us from the responsibility and the benefit that comes with learning how to talk about money in our close, intimate social circles, in our friend social circles, even in our more acquaintance social circles. But in different ways.

[Jill]

Yeah. And I mean, it Is a skill to be built. Because most of us, most of us weren't taught to have money conversations. Most of us didn't grow up having extensive money conversations. And it is a sensitive topic. We talk all the time about how to tie money into our values, but it is also wrapped up in identity and power and control. And so a lot of these conversations can trigger uncomfortable emotions. And I think that's also one of the reasons that we avoid it. There were a couple of different research studies and articles that have been written that we read through as we prepared for this. And there was one study on couples that was done where they described how disagreements over spending, debt, or other financial goals were one of the most common sources of conflict. Like amongst anything, not just, oh, within money, just any type of conflict that you experience. It was around these types of things. And I found it interesting, the two general themes that emerged in all the different types of things that would come up in these arguments, they could all be centered around concerns about fairness and concerns about responsibility, which you do see a lot in relationships, right? Like, I'm taking on more. You're not doing as much. Is this fair? Whose responsibility is this?

[Jen]

I deserve to be able to buy this.

[Jill]

Like, yeah, yeah, but like chores, household management tasks, all of that. And so you can see how money is also going to touch on some of those other issues that if, if there's anything else going on regarding concerns of fairness or responsibility, this little thing is going to weasel its way into those conflicts as well.

[Jen]

And another reason I feel like this is the financial management skill that is just one of the most important skills is because there are so many influencers out there that will tell you what to do. They will tell you how to manage money, how you should manage money as a couple, how you should deviate or, you know, dictate whatever your dollars. When you are talking about money with your partner, when you're talking about money with your friends and others, then you can decide what's right for you. If you're not having open and honest conversations, then you end up listening to somebody who doesn't know you. And their advice may not be the best for you. But when you're absorbing information from multiple places and talking to your people, then you can make that decision for yourself. And ultimately the decision you make for yourself is the right one, not what somebody else has told you is right. So we looked at a couple of studies to figure out. Is, is this a skill worth learning? Is it is important of a skill as we think it is? And Study after study showed that it is. So there's one from Cornell that's found sharing one's financial situation, especially aspects that are within one's control, that's a very important distinction.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Such as spending or saving rather than things like job loss. Talking about stuff like this that are in your control lowers financial anxiety. And who doesn't have financial anxiety right now in this economy? An empirical review of six studies focused on romantic relationships found that more frequent and higher quality financial communication is associated with better financial health. And stick with us because Carl Richards has so many good tips for having those conversations. It was so good. And then the National Library of Medicine, there was a study in there about how people develop financial habits and having parents or caregivers who relative who are relatively transparent about their family finances is correlated with lower financial anxiety, better financial literacy, and healthier money attitudes in emerging adulthoods. So again, that's where I think that piece of what's in our control is important. Because you don't you want to have transparency with kids about money? I think that's one of the reason, like wealthy children, affluent children are set apart is because parents are having those conversations openly with people in front of them. But about things that are in your control. What I'm doing to save, what I'm doing to spend, how I'm making spending decisions. So clutch. Yeah.

[Jill]

And we do best whenever we can focus the majority of our time, energy and attention on the things that are within our control. So often anxiety becomes so big when we're focusing on the things that we actually don't have any kind of control or influence over. And that's a lot of things.

[Jen]

So many.

[Jill]

But if we can bring it a little bit smaller to what is within my control, what do I have room to make decisions about? Even if the decision is just, I'm going to talk about this with somebody else. That can be huge for decreasing the level of overwhelm that we feel about these things. It can feel counterintuitive because we don't want to look at it, we don't want to talk about it. But if we can kind of get over that hump and recognize that through this discomfort, I will find more comfort and peace on the other side of this when I find some of those safe people to have those conversations and when I learn the right questions to be asking. And so how do we talk about money in a way that can make us feel more confident about money, that can build our financial knowledge and acumen and to feel just more confident in what we're doing with our money. And that makes other people feel seen and confident because I think, yeah, there's a lot of benefit in this for us, but how can it benefit other people too? You know, going back to our origin story, that was a big piece of it that, yeah, you are comfortable talking about it. I'm comfortable talking about it. But what does it provide to the other person to create that sense space as well and to recognize that we all don't have to be in the same place to be having these conversations and the help that can be provided and the things that we're going to learn that we didn't even know we didn't know can surface in this and just make all of finances feel a whole lot more approachable just because we found those safe people that we can talk to, ask questions with, learn together.

[Jen]

Yeah, I think when we have that mindset, we're going into these conversations where I'm not just here to like teach you something because I think you don't know enough, but having this, like, how can I learn? What can I take away from this? And how can I leave what I say? Leave somebody feeling more confident or more encouraged in what they know? Because that's what we're trying to take away from all of these money conversations. Not what we try to take away from every conversation about anything. But when we're think when we're talking about money, something that has been taught to us to be taboo, I think that's a really good foundational mindset to start with. And while we've talked about this a lot, we really wanted to talk with someone who has talked about it even longer than us. So we asked one of our favorite people, Carl Richards, to come on and talk with us. Carl is a certified financial planner and he's a former columnist for the New York Times. And he is the author of two books that I believe should be required reading for anybody getting any knowledge about personal finance. The first is the Behavior Gap and we'll link these in the description because truly you should look them up and read them if you haven't. The Behavior Gap and the one Page Financial Plan. And we actually, last time we had Carl on was to talk about both of those books and we've done an episode on how to make a one page financial Plan. So those, those two books I think make personal finance way more accessible. If maybe you've read some other books and still aren't feeling, maybe felt encouraged at first and now you're like, out of that, I just believe These books are it. And he's the author of a new book titled, you, Money Reimagining wealth in 101 Simple Sketches. Because, spoiler alert, his column for the New York Times was actually just sketches. He just wrote these sketches to inspire people to have conversations about money. And so he has described this book not as a book, but as a conversation grenade. So we are super excited.

[Ad Reader]

It's wild.

[Jen]

This was such a good, Scary. Yes.

[Jill]

Such a good interview though. And let's get into it.

[Jen]

Do you think you could name all of your financial accounts right now? Like every 401k investment savings account? Even that random HSA from your old job?

[Jill]

Honestly, most people can't. And that's where Monarch Money comes in. It's an all in one personal finance tool that pulls your entire financial life into one clean dashboard on your phone or laptop.

[Jen]

Yeah, that's what sold me. I started using Monarch and within minutes I could see everything our checking, savings, investments, credit cards all in one place. It's so much easier than hopping between apps or spreadsheets and now I can actually understand our full financial picture at a glance.

[Jill]

Monarch really does the heavy lifting. Linking accounts in minutes, categorizing your spending, showing smart visuals of where your money's going to, and even letting you share a dashboard with your partner. Don't let financial opportunities slip through the cracks. Use code [e-mail] for 50% off your first year. That's half off your first [e-mail] with.

[Jen]

Code Frugal introducing your new Dell PC. Powered by the Intel Core Ultra processor, it helps you handle a lot even when your holiday to do list gets to be a lot because it's built with all day battery life plus powerful AI features that help you do it all with ease, from editing images to drafting emails to summarizing large documents to.

[Jill]

Multitasking so you can organize your holiday shopping and make custom holiday decor and search for great holiday deals and respond to holiday requests and customer questions and customers requesting custom things. And plan the perfect holiday dinner for vegans, vegetarians, pescatarians and Uncle Mike's carnivore diet.

[Jen]

Luckily, you can get a PC that helps you do it all faster so you can get it all done.

[Jill]

That's the power of Dell PC with Intel inside, backed by Dell's Price match guarantee. Get yours [e-mail] deals, terms and conditions apply. See Dell.com for details.

[Jen]

All right, Carl, so we've been talking about this area of personal finance that not only does no one talk about. But we are actively told, literally, not to talk about it. And in your experience as a certified financial planner, talking to so many people over your career, what differences do you see in individuals who have the skill of being able to talk about money in a healthy way with loved ones, friends, strangers, et cetera, versus those who will not talk about it?

[Carl Richards]

That's such a good question. One thing I think that's important as context for the answer is to understand that when we think about talking about money, we typically think we're going to engage in a conversation around math, right? Like, we think it should be. It should be a conversation around math, spreadsheets, you know, numbers. And I think what happens to us early on is we go to make an attempt to talk about it with a spouse, a partner, a friend, a coworker, and we enter it thinking, oh, this will be a nice discount. Like, two plus two always equals four, right? Like, this will just be a, A. And then we suddenly find ourselves in an argument and we're surprised by it. It's like two plus two always equals four. But two plus two never equals envy or greed or worry, right? And we kind of don't know what to make to make of the idea that we're suddenly feeling something like anger or shame, and we just opened the American Express bill. You know what I mean? Like, these things feel like they're. I sometimes think about it as, like, it's. It's sort of like touching an electric fence that you didn't know was electric. Like, it's one thing to touch an electric fence that you expected to be electric. That's no fun. But it's.

[Jen]

It's.

[Carl Richards]

It's a different experience than being completely surprised. So the one thing I've. I've noticed about people who have been able to have these conversations is they've gotten clear about the idea that, like, I'm going to have some feelings, right? This. This conversation is going to involve feelings, and the other person's gonna have some feelings. And if I can learn to. I mean, I'm always, like, sort of grabbing my chest when I do this, because that's where I feel it, right? Like, if I can learn to feel the difference between shoulders rolled forward and a little bit open, I can learn to feel. So, like. And the way that would show up with a spouse or partner or friend or kid would be, like an open acknowledgment, like, maybe even before you have the conversation, hey, I wanna have a conversation about our budget this month, right? And I Wanna do it a little differently than we've done in the past. Like, in the past, we start this conversation, I get mad, you get mad. There's an angry, there's a fight. We don't talk about it for three more weeks. How could we do it a little differently this time? Cause I'm just curious what you're feeling, right? Like, when it comes up, how does it feel to you? And I love to also establish, I've seen this be really successful a timeout rule that either party can call timeout at any time and the other party has to respect that. Like, hey, you know what? This is getting a little heated. I'm gonna just go take a walk real quick. Sort of timeout, right? Like, and if we, if we can just start introducing some of that. Because the only thing we can't do is quit. I mean, of course you can. But if we, like, give up on these things, then we'll never. So I also love, like, disclaimers like, hey, I'd like to have a conversation about this, but no one ever taught me how to do it. So this is going to be clumsy. Can I have permission to be clumsy? And if it's clumsy in a way that, like, makes you want to punch me, can we just call timeout? And I, by punch it, I mean that metaphorically, of course. But, like, if it's clumsy in a way that, that feels like it's gonna lead to the same thing we've done 25 times in a row, that shame, blame thing that you and I that I often do to you. Like, I also like taking responsibility for it. So it'd be like if I miscommunicate instead of if you misunderstand, right? Like, if I miscommunicate something, can we just be clumsy for a minute and then we'll go on a walk? You know, Like, I. There's a bunch of stuff you can do to make this more successful. But the most important thing to me is pay attention to how you're feeling, right? And talk about it. Expect it to be emotional. Expect there. Your mom said something to you when you were 8, your dad when you were 12. The neighbor kid said, what, do you only have one pair of pants? Why are they grass stained? Or why can't we wear it? Like, whatever. Like, that stuff's obviously gonna come up and you've never had a chance to talk about it, so don't be surprised when it does.

[Jill]

Oh, Carl, what you're describing is so crucial. I think the piece about the recognizing that these conversations are Going to be layered. That there is more under the surface than just, hey, let's talk about the bank statement, or let's talk about, you know, what. What two plus two equals our net worth.

[Jen]

Our early retirement number.

[Jill]

Yeah. And. And I think that's so helpful, even some of the prompts that you've given. If we were to have these conversations with partners, with significant others. And I'm also wondering if we were to kind of zoom out a little bit for either those who don't have partners or want to be having these types of conversations with friends just to make it more accessible to talk about money, how might we know whether or not those relationships are safe to even enter into those conversations? And if we do identify that, what are some of those good conversation starters?

[Carl Richards]

Yeah, that's interesting. I've never. The safe piece is really interesting. Um, I think I would probably start with the idea of, like, what. What am I trying to. Okay, so if I. If I'm thinking about having a conversation with a friend, for instance, what am I trying to solve for? Like, what's the goal? Right. And if the goal is, like, I just want to get somebody else's perspective or I want to. Just for once in my life, can I just feel seen and heard about these experiences I'm having with money. Like, that level of where I'm going with this is like, the level of detail that needs to be shared about specific numbers. I always find as soon as you mention numbers, people miss. They want to argue about the number, and they miss the point. And so if you're thinking carefully about what the goal is, I would sort of ask yourself a question like, does it. Is any number. Like, how much I make, how much I spend, is any number important? And it's not that I would avoid conversations where a number is important. Not at all. I'm just saying it's a different conversation. Because if numbers aren't important, you can be asking questions just like, gosh, how do you deal with. Have you ever had this experience where your neighbor shows up with a new car and you know better than to feel like, oh, I can't believe they haven't. Like, of course I would never fall prey to the keep up with the Joneses. Like, this is a conversation you could have with somebody. Right. I'd never fall prey to that. But I did find myself wondering, you know, like, I did find myself slipping. Like, you could have a conversation like that without mentioning any numbers. Right. Here's one way, I think, to sort of test the water, which I just Think is, I've done this hundreds of times. Now. The first memory of money is a really interesting question, right? And you can blame me, you can blame Jen and Jill. We saw these crazy people on the Internet. And you could just say something like, hey, I have a question for you. Because I was thinking about this the other day for myself. What's your earliest memory of money? I love that question with spouse, partner, significant other or friend, because it's really easy to enter, right? I hadn't had that conversation. We've been married 30 years, 25 years in, 27 years in. I asked my wife that question and I was totally blown away by the answer. Like, I could have never told. I asked my kids that question. I was shocked by their answers. So that's insane. The reason I love that question is you can just. You can. And I love this idea of calling it a win. If somebody was like, oh, yeah, I remember I had a paper out and I lost a dollar and I went digging for it and I never found it. And I remember being so disappointed or something, you'd just be like, oh, tell me more about how that felt. Or if somebody says something like, around our house, money was always stressful. A very interesting follow up is, how did you know? Like, how did you become aware of that? Is this just with hindsight or can you remember? And then I love asking people, like. Because you might get something like, no, I remember sitting on the stairs and listening to my parents argue about it downstairs. And I love. And right there you could just go, wow, man, that's so interesting. Right? I'm sorry about that. And you could go deeper or you could just go, gosh, what are your plans for the rest of the day? You could acknowledge it and move on and call it a win. And you could just be like, I just had a conversation about money. And nobody fought, right? Nobody went away angry. And so I love that first memory of money. And that thing can go as deep as you want it to. By, like, how did it feel? What do you remember? What do you remember your parents saying? But I love, I love that as a place to sort of scope out the terrain of whether or not I want to have more conversations like this with this person.

[Jill]

I have a belief that we don't have to understand somebody in order to value them. But I do think that having these types of conversations, what you're describing, does give us more context and can help to create some more of that empathy around how we approach these types of conversations. And just to know there's background to this. And so the way that I come to this conversation, the way. The way in which I form my questions and utilizing some of the tools that you've already given us to frame the conversation and lay the foundation, I think it helps us to value the other person more and probably our own story as well, that if we're asking these questions of other people, I would imagine it means we're probably asking them of ourselves too.

[Jen]

Yeah, I. I loved your rule to not start with the numbers. Like, I love that one.

[Carl Richards]

Can I just mention one thing real quick that I just think is really important? That empathy piece is really important. And back to, let's say a friend. You know, if you're seeing behavior financially that you're like. Because we all have blind spots. So if. If you're the type of friend who happens to notice a blind spot, behavior in somebody, somebody's behavior that's causing suboptimal results, let's call it that, right? Like, it's caught and it's really. And you could see this in again, a spouse, a partner, a child, a friend. It's really interesting to try to understand what's behind the behavior because there's deep empathy there. Right? And I think you can say, like, I have. Actually, one of my favorite lines for these more sensitive conversations is, and I've literally said this last week to a friend, I was like, you may fire me as a friend for what I'm about to say, but you should definitely fire me if I don't at least ask the question, right? And then just say, like, I see this thing you keep saying, this is really important to you. And then I see this behavior over here with the money, and I can't make sense of it. Like, it's. So you're generous in your assumption about it. Like, I can't make sense of it. I'm just wondering if you could help me. Is it useful at all for the two of us to talk about just sort of understanding? Because I kind of. I can't make sense of it. You say this, and then I see this behavior popping up. Like, what's happening there? Right? Like, and, and. And imagine that with this. I could tell you hundreds of stories about this with significant other spouse conversations where somebody's just like, I don't get it. We've been married 15 years. Cars have never mattered to her. And then you ask the question and you find out, oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean. I need a new car. And they'll tell you this story. Like, when I was 12. My dad had a car that would always break down. We pulled up in front. This is a real story. I know. I can see the person in my mind right now. I know their names. They're like, I'm so sorry. They've been fighting over cars. And the. The one spouse was like, I don't get it. Can you please explain this to me? You don't like why it's going to blow our budget, so. And she's like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe you. I'm so sorry. I must have miscommunicated. I didn't mean new. She was like. Then tells the story. When I was 12, pulled up in front of middle school getting out of my dad's car, and it backfires. All the kids are getting out of the bus. Like, he couldn't start the car. Everybody's looking at me. He's like, in middle school, there couldn't be a worse time for that to happen. And then she's like, I remember the car breaking down two miles from the nearest payphone and us having to walk and my dad being pissed about it. So it wasn't like an adventure. Like you could turn that into if you were really on it as a dad. I guess I could see myself just complaining and being mad. And she's like, sorry, sorry. I won't mention their name. Sorry, Mark, we'll make up a name. Sorry, Mark. I didn't mean new. I meant reliable. And you're suddenly like, oh, oh. Like, that changes the whole texture of the conversation.

[Jill]

And what a shift. I hear what you're describing going from a slight assumption to curiosity. And I think we can. When we can do that both for ourselves and for other people, then it does bring a lot more value to the conversation and a way forward rather than just kind of staying stuck or experiencing further compounding shame.

[Carl Richards]

Totally. Please. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

[Jen]

I. I love. I love that question and, like, the reframing of it. Because what you said when you, like, thought about the couple, I'm like, yes, I can think of, like, a couple in my head that are not seeing eye to eye. And it's. It has nothing to do with the numbers and everything to do about how the way they're communicating is just, like, not lining up.

[Carl Richards]

Yeah. And you can get to the bottom of that and find irreconcilable differences. That's possible. Right. But you could also start getting to the bottom of that and go, oh, hey, what if I adjusted here? Suddenly there's, like, empathy and cooperation Instead of, you're not at war anymore, you're in conversation. Right. And I love that.

[Jill]

A lot of this, though, does sound like work because it's intentionality. It's a shift. It's different than maybe how we've approached things in the past. And so that can feel like a heavy lift in this. What would be the hope that you would say someone might experience or can expect to experience through having these types of conversations? Like, what is building this skill set of having better money conversations lead to?

[Carl Richards]

Yeah. So first, it is a lot of work. We just recently had a family trip where I was with. In the car with my wife and my oldest daughter and my youngest daughter, and a conversation came up there that would take too long to explain, but it was. It was the hardest conversation around money I've had in a very long time. And I wanted to check out, like, three times. I almost did. I felt the words coming out of my mouth and was able to. Luckily, I was driving and had my sunglasses on, and I could sort of like, hide emotionally for a minute. But then we got there. No one checked out. We stayed there. We, like, had a little timeout moment. We, everybody. I was so proud of My youngest daughter, 21, and my oldest, 28, and my wife and I, we all stayed there. It turned into the highlight of my year, but it was the hardest conversation I've ever had about because they were asking questions about, like, wait, isn't this your job? And it was bringing up shame and blame. And so it's hard. It's hard. And what can you hope for? I believe this is at the root of the reason you can't keep your budget. This is at the root of the reason why you're not like, I think we can talk all day long about the slightly better budgeting app or the tactics. And they're incredible. I don't want to be dismissive in any way. They're incredibly important, the tactics. But I'm more interested in the part of you that has all the tactics and is still not doing them. The part of all of us that has all the tactics. I would submit to all of your. Everybody listening to this because of who you two are. They're not bad with money. They're just asking the wrong questions. Right. They're not. You are. I just want everybody to hear this really carefully. Like, you are not bad with money that doesn't exist. You're just asking the wrong question. You're giving it the wrong job. You're giving it a job. It can't do. And so what could you hope if you started to get to the bottom of this? The budgeting thing suddenly becomes. My wife calls it fun and easy because I was like, oh, this budgeting thing is so hard. And like beast of burden like this. She's like, wait, wait, wait, what if it was fun and easy? I was like, what are you talking about? And 10 years later, now I'm understanding it's fun and easy if we get alignment up here. So that's what I think you can expect. You already have all the tools.

[Listener/Taylor]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Oh, what a piece of hope and encouragement for sure. So if we were to then turn it inward, if some of this work does begin with us, if I can be so bold to say, what is a question that you think we could be asking ourselves today?

[Jen]

And I would love if you would pick from your new book because you have like 101 examples, right? So if you were thinking about like one or two, what would you think would be like a good one or two to start with.

[Carl Richards]

In answer to your question, Jen, like I would point you to number 30, the spending practice. And then there's a couple under section four in action. Like spend better. Number 36. It's one of my favorite. Number 37, spend the money. Here's what they all get down to, is a practice to me, the spending practice. Imagine you had a friend, it was the first friend you ever met. Like imagine you guys met in preschool. You're still friends, you see them more frequently than anybody else in your life. But every time you interact with that friend, you feel bad about yourself, you feel guilty or shame or blame. That is spending to money, right? Like the first interaction you have with money is spending. The most frequent interaction you have with money is spending. And every time you do it, you feel bad. Like we designed like flip yourself with a rubber band style. Feel bad. Like what if instead we just started asking a question? What if we just started observing? Like, so I. The phrase I use is, isn't that interesting? So instead of shame or blame, it takes a long time to unwire this because it's just wired into us to feel shame or blame. But what if you engaged in the spend? I want you to become a world class spender, right? Like better than anybody else on the planet is spending your money in an aligned way. So we want spending to be a fantastic experience. And the way to get there is so that you start saying like, oh, isn't that interesting? I just spent $9 and 72 cents at Jimmy John's, like end no More shame, blame? No. Why no change. If you just engaged in that for 30 days of just noticing. Every time you spend just noticing, your behavior will change, especially if your goal is not behavior change. Simple awareness will drive behavior change. And the kind of behavior change we're looking for is alignment. You're spending more as a percentage on the things that bring you value. Value includes all your future goals. You're spending more on things that you feel good about and less on things that you unnecessary plastic crap that you didn't want in the first place. And you just start getting. And for you, that might mean coffee. For me, that might mean time outside with my family. But you just start noticing what brings me joy. Can I spend a little bit more on that? What doesn't do it for me? Like, here's my last bit. My example is my wife and I used to. We made a commitment to develop more relationships with friends. And we thought, because it's what Instagram told us, that the way to do that would be movie, dinner, and movie, right? Let's. Let's meet at a restaurant, let's go to a movie. But our goal, the value we were investing in was connection and friendship. And we realized after like seven or eight reps of this, we were like, that's odd. Like, why are we investing in community and friendship by going to a noisy restaurant and then sitting in a movie theater? So instead we, like, how about you come to our house, we'll buy all the ingredients, we'll prep the meal together. We'll spend two or three hours, like, cooking, eating, hanging out, having a conversation. It turns out it was cheaper, but that wasn't the goal. Turns out it was cheaper, but we invested in the value of connection and friendship in a much better way. So that's what I'm talking about. The way to get there is just notice, notice, notice, notice. And that's the spending practice.

[Jill]

So grateful to Carl for sharing those tidbits of wisdom with, I think so many good questions that we all can be writing down and pulling out at random with our friends that we feel comfortable with and certainly with our partners. I think it's so important.

[Jen]

Let me tell you, you want to be the life of the party this holiday season? Pull out that new book from Carl and just ask people about money, but don't mention numbers. I think that was the key takeaway for me was the not mentioning numbers that money is feelings. And that's actually, I think, the first sketch in his book. Money equals feelings. Feelings. That is really what we're trying to get across and viewing a healthy financial conversation from that lens, I think is so important. I was on YouTube, as I am a lot nowadays, and I was watching a stand up from Josh Johnson, who is one of my favorite comedians. He always, like, wraps up his, like, stand up with something so profound, like, I don't know how he does it. It's new every week and it just ends with something that I would think he would be ruminating on for decades, but literally probably just thought of it the day before, but he was doing one. And I'll link to the video in the description, but it wrapped up with this whole, like, I don't know, sermon on communicate, like how we communicate with each other and how if we are not communicating with each other, the small bubbles and the small slivers of the algorithms in which we live in make it feel like that that is what the whole world is like. When we are being served. We think we're choosing what we're being served because of what we're interacting with, but it is most likely that we are not. We are truly being served. And we can do that so often. And the less we are talking with real people around us, the more we start to believe that what we are being served is actual reality, whether we want to or not. It's. It is the human condition. When you are being served a thing. Thousand videos that are all very similar and all play to your confirmation bias, the bias that we will look for information that confirms our beliefs about things. When you're inundated with that, that's how you believe the world is. And the only solution for it is to get out there and talk to other people and hear their experience, experiences about the world around them.

[Jill]

One of the things that's been most sobering for me with that concept is also that what I consume is what is forming me. And so, you know, we, we've heard a lot about how, you know, being on Instagram can increase anxiety. And it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know that that's not real life, but eventually, if we're seeing the same thing over and over and over again like you're describing, and if our. And screen time is just going up and up and up, it is the world that we're living in then, and it shapes the way that we think, the way we view the world, the way that we then interact with the world, it forms us. It's not no longer something we're just being entertained by and controlling. It's something that we then are becoming. It's a part of our becoming process. And I think that was really. It just kind of made me realize how do I want to be formed? What are the pieces and the inputs that I want so that I can kind of make sure that my becoming process is growth and not like stagnation or, or the other direction of growth.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Jill]

And, and I think it is too. It's people, it's being around other people, choosing who those are finding, you know, more safe than unsafe, safe people, but having real life interactions and allow that to be our real world, not this kind of fake world.

[Listener/Taylor]

Yeah.

[Jen]

So I just wanted to, I just looked this up because I wanted to know, like, so users upload more than 95 million photos and videos to Instagram daily. 95 million. And if you're on Instagram for four hours a day, seven days a week, you'll see around 1600. If, if videos are a minute long, you'll. You'll see at least 1600-62nd videos. So that doesn't count, like carousels and stuff. So you could see anywhere from like 1600 to like 3200 pieces of content a week. A week. And there are 95 million pieces of content uploaded to Instagram daily. So, like, I think that should put in perspective, hey, that's a, that's a lot of content for one person. B, in the scope of things. Tiny.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Tiny are the, the things that we see on social media are minuscule in comparison to what is really out there. And that's just people uploading content. That's not people not uploading content.

[Jill]

Do you know what content, though, I'm really okay with and I never want it to go away.

[Jen]

If you, if you did this every single week, you would, you would do this twice a week, every week.

[Jill]

I love the way this forms me.

[Jen]

Yeah, the bill of the week.

[Carl Richards]

That's right. It's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name is William. Maybe you paid off your mortgage, maybe.

[Jill]

Your car died and you're happy to.

[Carl Richards]

Not have to pay that bill anymore.

[Listener/Taylor]

Duck.

[Carl Richards]

Bills, Buffalo Bills, Bill Clinton. This is the bill of the week.

[Listener/Taylor]

Hey, Gin and Jill. This is Taylor from Fairfax County, Virginia. And my bill of the week is that I just saved $50 on a flight that I am booking. I'll be going on vacation to Portugal. Flights is one of my areas of spending where I usually spend guilt free. So usually after I set a budget, as long as I'm within that budget, I don't typically. I'm not typically Too concerned about how much I'm actually spending, but I figured, why not just check? So I actually checked for my flight, and I realized that the price had actually changed, and it was so simple and so easy, and I should probably just do that so much more often with things like Google flights and all the other travel hacking things. Yeah. But that was super exciting that I just kind of, on a whim, looked up the same flight that I was already taking and found that it was $50 cheaper. So that is my bill of the week. Keep doing what y' all are doing. I love listening to your show. I share it with all my friends, and I'm so excited to listen to y' all show. All right, bye.

[Jen]

Oh, my gosh. So that is 50 more dollars you can spend on Portuguese wine. We did a. We did a wine tasting of Portugal wine. It was so good.

[Jill]

Yes.

[Jen]

So good. And so. Oh, I want to say so, so old. But the wineries are so old.

[Jill]

No, actual wine is so old. So good.

[Jen]

So good. So more. So much more money for old wine.

[Jill]

This is amazing. Portugal was one of my favorite places that I've ever been. You've probably already. You're probably already back from this vacation. Probably.

[Jen]

They're coming right now.

[Jill]

Maybe. But this is wonderful and an excellent tip, too. I know that even some credit cards will flag. Like, if a price goes down on something within a certain amount of time from you purchasing that item, they'll just automatically reimburse you. That happened to us with one of our flights that we purchased through our credit card.

[Listener/Taylor]

Oh, wow.

[Jen]

Do you remember which card it was?

[Jill]

I think it was the Capital one.

[Jen]

Venture X. Yeah, the pricey one.

[Jill]

Yeah. Travel. So she do. I'm with you, Taylor. This is what I like to do and spend my money on. So, yeah, wonderful. So happy for you. I hope it was a great trip. And if any of you all are listening and you have a bill about saving that money while you're spending on things you love and value, or your name isbillforgirlfriendspodcast.com Bill. Leave it for us. We can't wait to hear it.

[Ad Reader]

Audible's romance collection has something to satisfy every side of you when it comes to what kind of romance you're into. You don't have to choose just one fancy a dalliance with a duke or maybe a steamy billionaire. You could find a book boyfriend in the city and another one tearing it up on the hockey field. And if nothing on this earth satisfies, you can always find love in another realm. Discover modern rom coms from authors like Lily Chu and Ali Hazelwood. The latest romantasy series from Sarah J. Maas and Rebecca Yarros, plus Regency favorites like Bridgerton and Outlander, and of course, all the really steamy stuff. Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com wondery that's audible.com wondery I think we're in for.

[Jen]

A tough couple of years.

[Carl Richards]

There's no sugar coating it.

[Jill]

I'm Phil Buchanan, the president of the.

[Carl Richards]

Center for Effective Philanthropy. My co host Grace Nicolette and I are excited to bring you a new season of Giving Done Right the show.

[Jill]

Exploring what it takes to be an effective donor in this time of unprecedented challenge.

[Ad Reader]

This season we're excited to bring you.

[Jill]

Conversations that will help you navigate the.

[Ad Reader]

Current difficult context for nonprofits and donors alike.

[Carl Richards]

A new season begins on September 4th, so be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jill]

And now it's time for the White Background. Pew, pew, pew, pew.

[Jen]

Okay, I know.

[Jill]

Why was I alone on that?

[Jen]

Oh, pew, pew. I know we have one question down here, but I was wondering, would you want to answer the Carl's question? What's your earliest memory about money?

[Jill]

Oh, that's cute. That's very cute. Okay.

[Jen]

Do you have one? I actually do have one.

[Jill]

Go for it.

[Jen]

Okay. So I remember listening to my parents argue about money and being in the other room, like, hiding behind the corner, and they're in the kitchen and I, they, they see me and they're like, you know, can help you. I don't remember what they said. And they're like, why are you fighting? And they're like, we're not fighting. We're having a discussion, a loud discussion. And I remember that's my earliest memory about money. And I don't know how it affected me, except from, like, then on, I knew that we did not have a lot of money. Like, money was tight. And it became very important to me as quickly as possible to start making my own money. Like, I got a job in high school as soon as I could. My mom demanded that I not work my first year of college because I actually was getting Social Security money from my dad's death. So she's like, you have money coming in. Do not work. And then. But as soon as I turned 18, I worked again. And so it's always been very important to me to make my own money as a result of that upbringing.

[Jill]

Yeah. Wow, that's good to make that connection. Like, to recognize here was the earlier memory. Here's what it means for me now.

[Jen]

I mean, I've had a lot of time to think on it.

[Jill]

Sure.

[Jen]

So now I didn't immediately.

[Jill]

It's not our first time talking about money.

[Jen]

It wasn't a quick connection, but I do have connected it.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Listener/Taylor]

Wow.

[Jill]

I mean, so much could be said for me. It's hard to know the timeline of things. You know, I've got these little blips of memory that form my money story. But I think probably my earliest type of understanding of money was just around like, we can't afford it. Like, here's hand me down clothing from your sister. No, we can't get that thing at the grocery store. Let me see if I have a coupon. Just like, we can't afford it.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Not affordable.

[Jen]

Yeah. Because you had three kids, so if somebody wanted something.

[Jill]

I didn't have three children, but I was part of a family of three.

[Jen]

Yeah, it was like that times three. I had that, but it was less because there was only one of me.

[Jill]

Right.

[Listener/Taylor]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Well, there's always only one of me, but only one. I was an only child is what I'm trying to say. Man, words are so hard for me. And I notice that more now that we're doing video and I hear myself back more often that, like, shoot, Jen has trouble talking and this is a bad profession for her. That's why when I was a writer, I was like, I'm a writer, not an editor. Because I relied on my editors to fix. I, like, knew what I wanted to say, and they, like, made it coherent with punctuation and correct vocabulary.

[Jill]

It's all right.

[Jen]

You know, I have ideas.

[Jill]

Anyone can be on the Internet now, so it's great.

[Jen]

Thank God. Anyone can be on the Internet, you know? You know what I'm saying? Is that how we all feel.

[Jill]

Wow. Thanks, everyone, for listening. Thanks for being here and, like, supporting the fact that we're on the Internet. And thank you also for reading the book that we had an editor for.

[Jen]

Oh, we had several editors and proofreaders for. It's called Buy what yout Love Without Going Broke. We had so many people on that.

[Jill]

And some of you, actually, many of you, nearly millions, have read it. Not really. Not really.

[Jen]

I'm manifesting thousands upon thousands, for sure.

[Jill]

Thousands of you have read it and reviewed it. Not all of you have reviewed it, but this person, Christine, reviewed it and said, advice that anyone can use and feel accomplished. Five stars. What I like about this book and the authors is that they give practical advice. They can apply to everyone. You can begin to feel like you're understanding how to manage your money, get out of debt, make plans for the future and not like you threw away everything or wasted your time. You also get the sets that is written by real people every day, which is exactly what Jen and Jill are. We are real people. I highly recommend checking this book out. Thank you, Christine. That's amazing.

[Jen]

So glad it was helpful for recognizing our real everydayness.

[Jill]

That's. That's the comment that keeps coming up the most. Like, you're so relatable. You're very every day.

[Jen]

You are so average. I love your Jen.

[Jill]

I want to be right here. Right here.

[Jen]

See, you are so mid, which I assume is average. And I assume that that's good. Let me know if I'm. Don't let me know if I'm wrong. Anyways, please keep subscribing to the YouTube channel. If you're watching this and you're not subscribed, please do. We come out with episodes twice a week that are very similar to this. And if you're looking for a good book to read, buy what you love book dot com. You can get it from bookshop. Org, Amazon, anywhere. Books are sold and instructions to request at the library if you don't see it at your local one. And we will see you next week. Bye. Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni.

[Jill]

Okay, what. Who's the next person you're going to ask a money question to? And what's the question going to be?

[Jen]

It's probably you. And it's probably, can I buy this?

[Jill]

Oh, funny.

[Jen]

Maybe I don't do a lot of purchases.

[Jill]

But what do you want to buy?

[Jen]

I don't know. Oh, I don't know yet. But that's probably gonna be the next money question I ask.

[Jill]

Oh, wow. Like, so you think that's gonna happen before you have any kind of money conversation with Travis or your children?

[Jen]

We did just talk about what? We wanna get a new dining table because we just found out yesterday that we're hosting Thanksgiving and I've been wanting a bigger dining table for a while, but haven't, like, had the motivation to look for one. And so we talked about that yesterday. We didn't talk about cost, but we're, like, committed to getting it from Facebook Marketplace. Like, we're not gonna buy it new, so. Yeah. No.

[Jill]

Yeah. Well, I don't know. It'll probably be you just begging for money from me.

[Jen]

It's usually me begging for money from you. Yeah.

[Jill]

Honestly, going on marketplace right now, seeing what's out there.

[Jen]

Can you end the episode first?

[Jill]

They're gonna be here for this.

[Jen]

It's what they.

[Jill]

It's what they signed up for.

[Jen]

No, it's not.

[Jill]

No, it's not. Wow. There's options, right?

[Jen]

See?

[Jill]

Wow.

[Listener/Taylor]

Yeah.

[Jill]

West Elm. That's cute. It's not very big, though.

[Jen]

No, I need a bigger one.

[Jill]

I was really hoping that I'd find it, like, in 10 seconds, while on this episode.

[Jen]

He's found one in Tampa that. That we're considering.

[Jill]

Okay. So few. We don't want to leave the people hanging.

[Jen]

No. We'll see what the ending result is.