Why You Keep Self-Sabotaging Your Budget (& How to Stop!)

Summary

Frugal Friends Podcast: Why You Keep Self-Sabotaging Your Budget (& How to Stop!)

Release Date: June 3, 2025
Hosts: Jen Smith & Jill Sirianni
Produced by: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction

In this episode of the Frugal Friends Podcast, hosts Jen Smith and Jill Sirianni delve into the common pitfalls that lead individuals to self-sabotage their budgets. Through a thoughtful exploration of psychological and behavioral factors, they offer actionable strategies to help listeners gain better control over their finances. This summary captures the essence of their discussion, highlighting key points, insights, and practical advice shared during the episode.

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Understanding Self-Sabotage in Budgeting

Jen and Jill begin by addressing the fundamental issue: self-sabotage in budgeting. They emphasize that despite the best intentions, many individuals find themselves derailing their financial plans due to various internal and external factors.

Jen (03:01): "If you have not been with us since episode 273, it's going to be new to you. And if you have, well, then this might be helpful information if you found yourself self-sabotaging."

Six Common Ways to Self-Sabotage Finances

Drawing inspiration from a Motley Fool article, the hosts outline six primary ways individuals sabotage their financial goals:

1. Not Having a Budget (Not Budgeting)

   • Jill (07:00): "The first thing that we can do to sabotage our financial goals and best laid plans is not having best laid plans. You know, it’s called not budgeting."
   • Insight: A significant portion of Americans recognize the importance of budgeting but fail to implement it effectively. Jen and Jill suggest viewing a budget as a flexible spending plan rather than a rigid constraint.

2. Building an Impossible Budget

   • Jen (09:20): "I was trying to create these impossible budgets which just led me to not budget at all."
   • Insight: Setting unrealistic financial goals can lead to frustration and abandonment of budgeting efforts. The hosts advocate for creating adaptable budgets that accommodate life's unpredictabilities.

3. Inability to Say No

   • Jill (11:39): "Another area that we can sabotage ourselves is not saying no."
   • Insight: Difficulty in declining expenses, whether to oneself or others, can disrupt financial plans. Jen and Jill recommend establishing boundaries and finding compromises that align with one's financial goals without sacrificing enjoyment.

4. Caring What Others Think

   • Jill (15:18): "We can fall into this or sabotage ourselves in this way and want things that other people have or want to be perceived in a certain way."
   • Insight: Social pressures and the desire for acceptance often lead to unnecessary spending. The hosts encourage listeners to prioritize personal values over societal expectations to achieve more meaningful financial fulfillment.

5. Making Spending Too Easy (Impulse Spending)

   • Jill (20:00): "Without many barriers in place, it lowers the barrier to entry for impulse purchases."
   • Insight: Easy access to online shopping and lack of spending constraints facilitate impulsive buying. Strategies such as limiting access to shopping apps, introducing spending barriers, and replacing shopping with alternative activities are recommended.

6. Failing to Imagine the Future

   • Jen (24:33): "You need to be putting savings for retirement into your plan."
   • Insight: Neglecting long-term financial planning can result in inadequate savings for retirement. Jen underscores the importance of early and consistent investment to secure future financial stability.

Strategies to Overcome Self-Sabotage

Jen and Jill offer practical solutions to counteract each form of self-sabotage:

• Creating a Flexible Budget: Treating the budget as a dynamic tool that adapts to changing circumstances rather than a strict ledger.

• Setting Realistic Goals: Aligning financial plans with realistic expectations to maintain motivation and reduce frustration.

• Establishing Boundaries: Learning to say no without feeling deprived, and finding balanced compromises that satisfy both financial and personal desires.

• Prioritizing Personal Values: Focusing on what truly matters to the individual rather than succumbing to external pressures.

• Implementing Spending Barriers: Introducing deliberate obstacles to impulsive purchases, such as delayed buying decisions or restricting access to shopping platforms.

• Planning for the Future: Emphasizing the importance of long-term financial planning, including retirement savings, to ensure enduring financial health.

Personal Anecdotes and Examples

Throughout the episode, Jen and Jill share personal experiences to illustrate their points:

• Jen's Struggle with Perfect Budgets: Jen recounts her experience of setting unattainable budget standards, leading to repeated failures and eventual abandonment of budgeting efforts.

Jen (09:20): "This was my problem because I looked at numbers on a screen and said, this is the perfect budget... which just led me to not budget at all."

• Jill's Strategy for Impulse Spending: Jill describes her habit of pausing before making purchases, assessing whether the expenditure aligns with her financial plan.

Jill (54:04): "I regularly check in with myself to determine how I'm feeling about making the purchases... sometimes I realize I shouldn't buy it."

Community and Support

The hosts also highlight the importance of community support and resources:

• Frugal Friends Planner: Jill promotes a mobile-optimized spending planner designed to help listeners track spending, manage debt, and conduct cost-benefit analyses.

Jill (04:03): "It's like the perfect sweatshirt, right? It's no more, it's no less. We're not trying to be super fancy."

• Encouragement to Listen and Engage: Jen and Jill encourage listeners to engage with their content, share personal stories, and utilize available tools to enhance their financial management.

Conclusion

Jen and Jill conclude the episode by reinforcing the significance of self-awareness and intentional financial planning. They remind listeners that overcoming self-sabotage requires continuous effort, adaptability, and a deep understanding of one's personal values and behaviors.

Jill (59:49): "Hope and motivation for curiosity about yourself and how know the makeup of who you are impacts your spending."

By addressing both the psychological and practical aspects of budgeting, this episode of the Frugal Friends Podcast serves as a comprehensive guide for anyone looking to break free from self-sabotaging financial habits and achieve greater financial independence.

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Notable Quotes:

• "It's called not budgeting." — Jill (07:00)
• "This was my problem because I looked at numbers on a screen and said, this is the perfect budget." — Jen (09:20)
• "Another area that we can sabotage ourselves is not saying no." — Jill (11:39)
• "We are always going to be some values and things you love that lose out to higher value things and higher value goals." — Jen (15:18)
• "You need to be putting savings for retirement into your plan." — Jen (24:33)

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Resources Mentioned:

• Frugal Friends Planner: frugalfriendspodcast.com/planner
• Book: Buy What You Love Without Going Broke (available at bookstores and libraries)

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For more insights and practical advice on managing your finances with humor and simplicity, tune into the Frugal Friends Podcast and join the community striving for financial independence and a richer life.

Transcript

[Jill]

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[Jen]

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[Jen]

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[Tom]

We hope to see you back here. I'm Lester Holt. It's carried forward. Tom Yamas is there for us. Firefighters are still working around the clock. As the world changes, we look for what endures. We are coming on the air with breaking news Right now. We look for a constant and from one era to the next, trust is the anchor For NBC Nightly News, I'm Tom Yamas. A new chapter begins NBC Nightly News with Tom Yamas.

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World of favorites for whatever you love, infinite worlds await at the most magical place on earth. Walt Disney World Resort. Why you keep self sabotaging your budget and how to stop.

[Tom]

Welcome to the Frugal Friends Podcast, where.

[Jen]

You'Ll learn to save money, embrace simplicity.

[Tom]

And live a richer life. Here are your hosts, Jen and Jill.

[Jen]

Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. My name is Jen.

[Jill]

My name is Jill.

[Jen]

And today we are sharing a rerun of episode 273. So if you have not been with us since then, it's going to be new to you. And if you have, well, then this might be helpful information if you found yourself self sabotaging. If not, then just turn it off.

[Jill]

What we've learned is nobody scrolls back into the archive. Nope ours or others.

[Jen]

So curating the episodes that you need to hear from two plus years ago so so you don't ever have to scroll back more than two years, we're going to curate the best ups for you and this is one of them.

[Jill]

But first, this episode is brought to you by the perfect sweatshirt. It's got everything you need. It's got the hoodie, it's got the zips. It's oversized and comfy. We're not trying to be more than we are, but we are trying to get exactly what we need. And that's kind of like our budget spreadsheet.

[Jen]

Keep going, keep going. You've got it.

[Jill]

We've got a mobile optimized spending planner spreadsheet that can be all yours. Frugalfriendspodcast.com planner and it's just like the perfect sweatshirt, right? It's no more, it's no less. We're not trying to be super fancy. Where are we actually going? Probably just the grocery store. And yet it has everything we need from debt payment tracking to being able to just see your spending at a glance. It's got a cost benefit analysis opportunity cost calculator. Yeah, yeah, that's another way of saying it. Where you can see. What else could I do with this money? It's a great thing to be able to ask yourself when you're at the store and you can do that in this spreadsheet. Again, because it's mobile optimized, you can access it easily from your phone, just like your sweatshirt is easily accessible and you can keep your phone in that nice sweatshirt. So the perfect sweatshirt, like the Perfect budget planner. Frugalfriendspodcast.com planner in the essence of self.

[Jen]

Sabotage, I told Jill to not write down her sponsor said. And I guess that was outside sabotage.

[Jill]

But I did see what we'd come see what we come up with on the fly.

[Jen]

I also came up with mine on the Fly.

[Jill]

But you often do that the next.

[Jen]

One on the sixth. So.

[Jill]

But we really do believe in that, the spreadsheet. We think it's helpful, it's inexpensive.

[Jen]

We absolutely do. We just don't always believe in ourselves.

[Jill]

And actually we're running a sale on that soon. Get our friend letter frugalfriendspodcast.com and you'll have access to any sale.

[Jen]

We also did not look up. We knew that there would be some kind of discount when we said this the last time. And instead of pausing and going to look up what that was before we hit record on this. Yeah. No, we decided not to.

[Jill]

No. We're going to self sabotage ourselves. We're going to make you sign up for our newsletter so. So you can get the code.

[Jen]

Because if there's anything that you can expect, it's that we're always going to self self sabotage ourselves. Right.

[Jill]

But here's how to stop doing that. Learn from us.

[Jen]

Here's how to stop doing it with your budget.

[Jill]

This first article comes from the Motley fool and titled six ways to stop sabotaging your finances. Although they actually go into six ways that you are sabotaging your finances or we are sabotaging. I'll say we, because I'm not trying to point fingers here. I'm a part of this. I fall victim to the holiday spending. So it's going through. What are some of the things that kind of interrupt our best laid plans? But then what can we replace it with? So we'll go through all six. The first one, the first thing that we can do to sabotage our financial goals and best laid plans is not having best laid plans. You know, it, it's called not budgeting. So. And they reference a Debt.com survey that showed that 33% of Americans do not budget their money, although 93% believe that everyone should. So you've got, you've got a bit of a gap there. And honestly, I would imagine it's higher than that. Although 33%, that's a lot of people. And then even when we do set a budget, whether or not we're looking at it, paying attention to it, following it is a whole other ball game. You know, we also describe budgeting as a spending plan. So if that's a more approachable term for making a plan for your money, then sure, call it whatever you want to call it. But we're not going to do very well if we don't actually know what we're doing. If we've not assigned a task for our Money or know how much is going, coming in or going out. So instead of not budgeting, we could try creating a spending plan. Creating a budget and viewing it as a tool in order to meet our goals. Again, Jen mentioned all the different, well, a few different episodes that you could cue up. If this is your particular area of sabotage to your finances is just like not doing it, not having the motivation, feeling like it's going to be strict and stringent. All of these things that kind of rail against this thing that we know we should be doing. Look at some different alternatives to maybe what you have in mind as what a budget looks like. It does not have to be a strict spreadsheet that details things down to the penny. There is so much freedom and flexibility in this. But having some sort of plan is going to help us, not sabotage.

[Jen]

Yeah. And it doesn't have to be a restrictive plan. You know that we love to make a, you know, a guilt free, values based budget. That's. And I think. So this leads into number two, the second self sabotage is building an impossible budget. I know this was my problem because I looked at numbers on a screen and I said, and I wrote them down and I said, this is the perfect budget. This is what I should be spending on this, this, this is what I have to spend on this, this. And so this is what I should have left over. And this was a budget for an ideal person, not a budget for me, not for where I was at. And so doing that and failing at it month after month led me to stop budgeting. And so I, I was trying to create these impossible budgets which just led me to not budget at all. And so I think those two can go hand in hand more than we think. And the thing to do instead is to create a flexible budget is to, we see them. So like we hear zero based budget and you know, 50, 30, 20 budget. We think we have to stick to these things, these models that other people have made when really you just want to have a plan for your spending. And life always finds a way to interrupt your best laid plans. And so finding ways to navigate that. We had a, I forget which challenge it was that we did in the membership. But like I think it was for goals that we had people identify, like, okay, there are going to be roadblocks for you creating these habits to get to these goals. Think of them now and think of ways you can go around them, like just anticipate them, Think of them now. You know, if you go back and look at your last 90 days of transactions and look at the ones that you wish you hadn't made. That's a roadblock. Look at that and figure out what was something that I could have said or done differently so that I could have avoided spending this money that I really didn't want to spend. So just do that in advance.

[Jill]

Yeah. And this next one is kind of connected to that idea of what you're saying, Jen. Another area that we can sabotage ourselves is not saying no. It's kind of like a double negative. But the inability to say no, usually. Well, to both ourselves and others. I can really identify with this one, particularly when it comes to something that seems really fun. Like, if you throw a fun activity at me, it is very hard to say no to myself or others. And I'm not advocating for deprivation here, but I think this is an area that can really, like, truly sabotage what we've said we wanted to do. And it doesn't have to. I have tried to challenge myself to find a way to be able to say yes to whatever is exciting me, but no. No to the interruption of financial goals that it might mean. So, like, for instance, there have been many times when it's not difficult to try and get me to go out to eat. Cooking sometimes feels overwhelming, and I like going out to eat. But some weeks, it's not in the meal plan, it's not in the spending plan. It's just not there. But there are many times where Eric is very successful and just, hey, let's go hit up a happy hour. Like, let's go, you know, oh, I gotta run to Lowe's. But it, of course, ends up taking, like, two or three hours instead of the 15 minutes he thought. And now I'm hungry. And so, yes, it's easy for me to say, yes, let's go out to eat. But. And I'm not saying that this happens perfectly every time. Sometimes I just do. I give in and I sabotage in some small ways the thing that I said that I wouldn't do. But I have found in some conditions, like this happy medium, where I'm able to kind of create that pause of, ooh, I'm excited about that. I don't have to deprive myself of the entire thing. Thing. But what is a good, like, negotiation here? What's a good compromise? And so there have been times where, okay, yes, I would love to go out, but let's eat the dinner that I've prepared and just go have a drink out. Or, let's eat here, and let's just get out of the House, let's go on a scooter ride, let's go on a walk, let's go do whatever it is. It doesn't have to be that I don't do something or I don't have fun, but it doesn't have to mean that I'm spending a ton of money that I didn't plan or want to spend. And that's also connected to what we talk about regularly of values based spending. And so the kind of what to do instead here in that when we recognize that inability to say no to ourselves. I think the biggest piece, and they referenced this in the article, is creating a pause, just an opportunity to reflect and process. Doesn't have to be very long. We're not talking about getting our journal out and sitting with quiet music for an hour, but thinking, oh, okay, what's happening here? What is it that is causing me to want to spend this money? Is it aligned with my values? Is it actually something I need or want or has been on my radar or priority list for a while or is it not? Is it totally peripheral? I'm going to be really bummed in a week when I look back at this expenditure that this happened and is there an alternative? Is there some way that I can engage in this while not maybe spending as much or spending at all and still get the thing that like the fun piece, the connection with others, you name it.

[Jen]

Yeah, absolutely. It's this hard balance between saying no and not depriving yourself. Right. Like we love no spend challenges, which at their core really seem to be depriving because we're saying actually don't spend money on anything, whether you value it or not, just for a month. But it's in order to get clarity on really the priorities of what you value. If you have an income where you can afford everything you value, that is fantastic. That is the goal is to create that. But not all of us are there yet. And so on the way there, while you are achieving other financial goals, there are always going to be some values and things you love that lose out to higher value things and higher value goals. And I think that's where we say we want, say yes as much as possible. As long as it's within the parameters of that plan.

[Jill]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we have to prioritize that. What else in life can we say yes to every single thing and it actually go well or be beneficial. So there will have to be even in the midst of identifying our values, prioritizing, what am I gonna tackle first? What's gonna Take precedent here.

[Jen]

Yeah. And even in the cases where you can afford everything, eventually everything then becomes less meaningful. I know what I was going to say meaningless, but, like, less meaningful. When you are forced to choose, the thing that you choose automatically becomes more special. And so that's not like, a way that we kind of want to, like, live our lives. But it can be some solace to know that when you choose everything, like when you're in that spending mode, where you're just spending on everything, then nothing is really meaningful. But when you're making these intentional choices, the things you say yes to are more special. Maybe that's somehow encouraging. Probably not in the moment, but just sit with it. We'll see. Number four is caring what other people think. This is. Yeah. Again, I feel personally like I could have written this because one of the things that kept me spending was not so much caring what people think, but just caring about being there. Fomo, honestly, it was like fear of missing out. It wasn't even necessarily what they thought of me, but it did depend. I mean, it was kind of. I didn't want other people having fun experiences and then hear about it later. So it was still, like, other people oriented. So it can be. I think this can go to either way. And it's why. Finding your values. And maybe we should have switched up this week and next week or next episode. The next one's about values.

[Tom]

Whoops.

[Jen]

But it's really important to go on the difficult journey of figuring out who you are and what you want and what you value so that you can know, am I. Is this what I want? Or am I being influenced by somebody else? Or am I, like, kind of quasi trying to impress this person or have the same experiences that make sure they don't experience something fun that I didn't? So that you can get to the point where you stop caring earlier in life.

[Jill]

I'm there. Yeah, I hit that. I'm a little concerned for what the rest of life is gonna look like, because I don't think you're supposed to, like, truly stop caring until you're, like, in your 60s, but it's happened in my 30s, so stay tuned.

[Jen]

There's always more room to care less. I believe that. I truly believe. Believe that.

[Jill]

Yeah. And there's a reason that there's a term for this type of scenario of keeping up with the Joneses. But the reality is that it always will fall flat. If that's the aim, it will never be achieved. Or when it is, when that target is hit, if that's the target, it will quickly shift to a new target and there is very little actual personal fulfillment in that. Again, we all can fall into this or sabotage ourselves in this way and want things that other people have or want to be perceived in a certain way. But I think challenging ourselves to have a deeper aim in the way that we live our life, which connects to how we spend our money, is ultimately what's going to be most fulfilling. We need to have deeper, more anchored aims than just what is the person next to me doing? Yeah, so the next one in the way that we can sabotage ourselves is by making spending easy, really just not having many boundaries or parameters or barriers to spending. And I'm talking primarily impulse spending because we all spend money and no part of us is advocating for never spending and never buying things and never doing fun stuff. So. But when we don't have many barriers in place or tethers on our ability to spend again, it lowers the barrier to entry for some of those impulse purchases. And this can happen to any one of us. And the article kind of references this example. This might not be for everyone, but helpful to kind of understand. When we have our debit cards or credit cards all ready entered into whatever website, whether it's Amazon or a place that we regularly schedule or shop at online, it already has that information. We don't have to go find our credit cards or type it all in again. It's just, yep, put it in the shopping cart and one click buy and done. That can make it really easy for us to late night when all of our decision making fatigue has caught up with us and our guards are down and we're just scrolling and buying and scrolling and buying. And so if that's you, one of the things that can be done is first of all not make it so easy to get to those sites on your phone. So if that's like a late night thing that's happening, instead put a block on those. Maybe don't have those apps downloaded on your phone or find some way to interrupt your habit of picking up your phone after 10pm and scrolling those sites. And all of these habits are going to need to be replaced with something. It's not a matter of just cutting it out, it's what am I going to do instead? And so could there be a game that you play on your phone instead of shopping? Could there be a book that you read instead of shopping, like find other things that are gonna keep you entertained rather than just the shopping piece they also reference in this article paying cash that for me is not the answer it could be for you. So I'm mentioning it because for some it feels like a bigger barrier to have to spend cash on something. They actually feel it coming out of their wallets in that way. For me, when I spend cash, I just feel like, oh, there's no log of this. It's fair game. Spend it however you want to because you're never gonna see it again. So whatever it is for you, identifying how have you potentially made spending easy and in what ways can you create barriers? I know we've talked about even with email, the EnrollMe site that you can sign up for and it kind of compiles all of the different email lists that you're on and so you're not consistently being bombarded with all these ads and marketing techniques that sometimes you might impulse spend on. So there's all sorts of technology and things that we can implement ourselves to interrupt this kind of thoughtless, mindless impulse purchasing.

[Jen]

Yeah, no spending after nine. Just try that rule. Try that rule on for size. Once 9pm hits, we're not buying anything. And then the last one on this list that we will just go through briefly because why do we really have to reiterate? This is your self sabotage number six, failing to imagine the future because you will on average live till 80 something and on average you will only work until 63. So the average person. And I know like mom said you're special but like she was probably average too. And you're probably all average, you know, so like just plan to live into your 80s, plan to retire.

[Jill]

No one's pointing fingers. We are all.

[Jen]

I'm looking at myself like I, I can see myself in the, in the video camera as I say this and I'm looking at myself and saying, you're average, Jen. So stop, stop thinking you're going to die in your 50s. And so just save you, you need to. And the, the point of that is, is that you need to be putting savings for retirement into your plan there. If you are old enough to be able to queue up this podcast and listen to it with the attention span to listen all the way through, then you are old enough to invest for retirement. And that's even. Yeah, no, absolutely you are. Even if you're not 18 yet, there's still ways that you can start doing that. So yeah, it is never too early. You save money on retirement the earlier you start. So if you're really looking for ways to save money from this podcast, here's a good one. Start investing earlier.

[Jill]

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[Jen]

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[Jen]

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[Jill]

Wireless way too much.

[Jen]

Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Tom]

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[Jill]

And now for the next article.

[Jen]

So our next one is from well and Good and it's five sneaky ways your mind sabotages your spending. And these are really short, so we'll go through them quickly because it's more of a less actionable steps and more of like here's some places to give yourself grace or here's some places you might want to dig into too.

[Jill]

Yeah, and my disclaimer is first of all, the word sneaky in this title I have to disagree with like, none of these are that sneaky and you'll kind of see why as we go through them. But also the purpose of well, our intention in talking about this article is to continue to challenge us towards curiosity about self, which can lead to greater understanding of self, which can lead to creating systems, habits, mindsets around the things that we know to be true about who we are and create an individualized plan that is aimed at well being and freedom and helps us in our finances. So a lot of this article, at least when I read it, can come across as just like, oh, and here's a problem. And here's a problem. And here's a problem.

[Jen]

The titles are abrasive. I will say that I felt offended, right?

[Jill]

Without much way of like, okay, but what do we do about this? And so that's where we, your fellow frugal friends, will kind of fill in the blanks. But I think some of these are worth noting because we are whole people and a lot of these mental, emotional, relational things that are identified in this article are accurate. While coming across abrasive, it's worth identifying them so that you could take a deeper dive on the things that feel relevant for you and how understanding that more might help you in your financial decisions.

[Jen]

Yeah, so I'm not even going to read the ones that, the titles that they wrote, I'm just going to write the one. Read the ones that Jill rewrote. So number one is your attachment style impacts your relationship with money. And I was unfamiliar with attachment styles, but apparently they are how you relate to others. So secure, avoidant, anxious, disorganized. If you recognize one of those or multiples in your relationship with others, those have a direct effect on how you relate to money. So this doctor says each attachment style may respond from that desire to avoid discomfort. And I feel like a lot. I mean, even if you don't have what this article calls an insecure attachment style, that's offensive. I'm very secure. I'm very secure in my negative attachment styles. Thank you. Really, some of our spending is to avoid discomfort, I think. And so I found that very eye opening that if you can identify something in your relationships, then it's very likely that it's going to have some impact in your money.

[Jill]

So to fill in the blanks a little bit more, attachment styles, it is research done by psychiatrist and psychoanalyst John Bowlby who identified various attachment styles in children to their parents or caregivers. So the four different attachment styles that you listed, anxious, avoidant, disorganized, secure. Those are the four attachment styles identified by Bowlby that happens and occurs as children. And it is particularly related to the way that we've attached to our parent or caregiver. And it has to do with how they responded to us in childhood and what that instilled in us and our understanding of relationships. And so these different attachment styles, then most research points to the fact that you're really not going to change an attachment style. Whatever was instilled in you as a child is the attachment style that you're living with. Again, I don't want to not have room for hope here or that we can't learn more about ourselves or operate aimed at health within those attachment styles. But whatever is instilled in us as far as attachment to our parent or caregiver can then bear weight and impact on our relationship and behaviors into adulthood. So this isn't like I don't want to say, oh zero, focus in on attachment style and make all of your financial decisions around that or any other aspect of life. But if this sounds curious to you of I wonder what my attachment style is, what was learned for me in response to my parent or caregiver and how does that impact my relationships? Certainly this is the, the curiosity with self, the understanding of ourselves that will help us in the way that we relate. And of course, it bears impact on our behaviors. The article doesn't go into much depth about what that's going to mean. And I would say understanding our attachment style will first and foremost help us in relationships and our relationship with ourselves. But then peripheral impact can be our relationship with money and the decisions and behaviors that occur in us as a result of that. So just a quick side note on.

[Jen]

Attachment styles, thank you for giving that explanation because that's super fascinating. I had never heard of this before.

[Jill]

My clinical licensure is surfacing here in this.

[Jen]

I know. That's why we pay you the big bucks, is because you got those letters.

[Jill]

Okay, number two, this one is so, so true. We've talked about this a lot. Is our emotions, and that includes being dysregulated can impact our money decisions. I don't love how the article only focuses on dysregulated emotions. I think we move in and out of being regulated and dysregulated and both can bear weight and do bear weight on the money decisions that we make. We don't only make poor money decisions when we're dysregulated. We can also make poor money decisions when we're regulated. But. But recognizing what happens for us when we are in either state, whether feeling really kind of lacking control in our emotions or feeling really down or sad or feeling really elated and happy and on top of the world, all of these things can impact what we choose to do with our money. We've talked about this in depth, so I'm not going to say much more than that, other than it's worth looking at and maybe even keeping a journal, keeping a log, recognizing, oh, when I'm feeling this way, here's what I'm likely to do. Is that beneficial for me? Great, let's keep doing that. Is it not? What could I replace that with?

[Jen]

Absolutely. Number three is neurodivergences that need to be considered. So that's an umbrella term for any. All variations, including adhd, autism, Asperger's, dyslexia, epilepsy, hyperlexia, ocd, Tourette. Yeah, So a lot. All right. And there are a lot more people that have neurodivergences, whether even slightly, that do impact how you budget and you don't even realize it. And so I think having that's one of the important parts of really figuring out yourself and doing kind of that deep work. So that if you have kind of tendencies towards one of these, even if it's undiagnosed but maybe you just see something. And I'm mostly talking about adhd. I think there's a lot more people that have that just because of the, you know, environmental, like environmental situation is just so ripe for creating that it look, I think a lot of people kind of can tend towards that. And so. So learning from that and giving yourself grace in the way you budget, it doesn't mean you can't budget. It doesn't mean you are incapable of budgeting. It means you should budget differently. And a lot of that means a little bit more flexibility in your budget. And I think all of us need more flexibility in our budget. But just definitely having more grace for yourself if you do tend towards one of these divergences.

[Jill]

Yeah. Whether neurodivergent or neurotypical, it's important to understand our personal makeup and the way that we make decisions, the way we view the world around us, how that impacts our behaviors. It's important for all of us. And I think giving the permission to create, particularly when we're talking about finances, a system that includes, includes and recognizes those aspects of ourselves. Not trying a one size fits all, because one size does not fit all. I think T shirt companies are recognizing that now.

[Jen]

Amen.

[Jill]

And so whatever you know about yourself, not putting that aside and trying to make a round peg fit into a square hole, but incorporating that, how does my knowledge about whatever it is that I know about myself, whether one of the neurodivergences that Jen listed or something else or not even under that category, whatever, we're all humans. And so what does that inform me about? How I can be kind to myself in my approach to finances while also not ignoring it. Right. Not going to either extreme of, oh, well, because of this I'm not capable at all, or because of this, you name it, it could go in e direction. But utilizing this knowledge and information to inform and create systems that are kind to you around finances. And next, number four is our own manipulation of ourselves is one of the things that can lead to sabotage of money. I don't love this terminology. Like, I don't love the term manipulation. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it sounds quite negative that we're like manipulating ourselves.

[Jen]

I don't think a lot of it is on purpose or is like maniacal or negative.

[Jill]

Yeah. But I think maybe a better way to define this would be what's realistic or not realistic. In what ways are we maybe thinking something is going to happen? This might be like fantastical thinking versus what's Reality or creating something. I know that we mentioned in that first article, creating something that's completely unrealistic, not something that's possible for us or desired. Even this can be. They give some examples of like, oh, I'll do that later, or I'll totally budget when XYZ happens. And I don't think that's manipulation. That might be just like thinking something's going to be true that isn't true. Maybe having a fantastical view of ourselves and what we're going to do or what we're capable of and not actually looking at, well, what are my patterns of behaviors and what could I reasonably expect to get done in the next week? Or is it true that tomorrow I'll do the budget? Or is it better that I'll do it right now? Carve out space as I'm thinking about it. So just kind of of, yeah, I guess that there's a possibility that we kind of like trick ourselves. But I think it's just a matter of looking at what's reasonable, what's realistic, and not continuing to find ourselves in this cycle of telling ourselves something's going to happen when it. When it's not going to happen. And maybe even we know full well it's not going to happen. So just taking a little bit more of a realistic approach with ourselves.

[Jen]

Yeah, it's like selective rationalization. It's. You're saying you're gonna. It's definitely, I'm going to do this tomorrow. I'll just fall asleep tonight. I'll track today's and tomorrow's transactions tomorrow. That's what it sounds like. But I think when it comes to. The first sentence was like, it's important to be aware when someone else is attempting to manipulate you. And I know this is talking about self, but I think a lot of our manipulation is like super well intentioned. Honestly. Most, most manipulation is like just the people around us wanting what they think is best for us. And we can take some of that on and internalize it and kind of create that in ourselves and want what other people think is best for us, when really we should be doing a little more realistic rationalization on, okay, what is best for me. So just a little addition to that. And then the last one is you're still embracing learned behaviors that no longer serve you. This was the only one that I thought was not abrasive. But so this kind of, I think, I guess, ties a little bit into the attachment styles, but it's is focused on things that you can change so they're saying our upbringing around finances and money greatly affects our spending habits in the future. For example, if you were raised by people who had insecure attachment styles, you likely picked up on their spending habits. For me, it was my mom always, every weekend we went to the mall. Like, shopping was a hobby, it was an activity. And so that was the way we bonded. And if we wanted to bond, we went to the mall. And that when I became an adult. And I think about this every Black Friday too, because my favorite part of Thanksgiving was not the meal. It was planning the Black Friday shopping route and sale acquisition of sale items. That was the best part for me. And nobody is surprised if you know me. And that habit, it. That behavior no longer serves me in adulthood. And it was a kind of a little difficult to let go of. It was. It took my job, actually requiring me to work every Black Friday for five years. That broke me of it. So thank you.

[Jill]

Thank you.

[Jen]

Thank you, Greg. Thank you, Greg. So, yeah, like, there are these things and you can accept that. Like, when I was younger, Black Friday, you know, strategic shopping was very fun and it served me in that way. And it no longer serves me today. And so I can be happy about what I did and when I did it and still change and create different behaviors today without feeling guilty about the past and without losing anything in the present or future.

[Jill]

Yeah, I mean, just recognizing cycles and patterns of behavior and where to interrupt them. Sometimes it can help us to even draw it out. Like, literally draw out a circle and identify, like, where does it start? What happens next? What happens next? What happens next? What's the end? How does it then get back into the cycle again? And then once we have that written out around the circle, identifying where can this. This be interrupted? At what point do I want to interrupt it? And with what can I interrupt it and just begin practicing changing and shifting some of those learned behaviors?

[Jen]

Yeah. You know how I love to interrupt you when you are just on this.

[Jill]

Like, rampage of wisdom with something that doesn't need to be shifted or changed. The bill of the week.

[Tom]

That's right. It's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name is William. Maybe you paid off your mortgage. Maybe your car died and you're happy.

[Jen]

To not have to pay that bill anymore. More duck Bills, Buffalo Bills, Bill Clinton.

[Tom]

This is the Bill of the week.

[Jen]

This is Tim from Florida. And a few months ago, I applied.

[Tom]

To have my PMI removed. So my house had gained quite a.

[Jill]

Bit of equity in the last Housing bump.

[Jen]

So this past month was the first month that I didn't have to pay PMI on a fairly new mortgage. And so that's $120 a month, but I'm going to continue to just keep paying it against the principal. So 120 bucks additional onto the principal over the life of the loan will.

[Tom]

Be another 74 grand.

[Jen]

So I'm pretty happy about that. Thanks.

[Jill]

Yes. Tim from Florida, this is amazing. Well done.

[Jen]

Yes.

[Jill]

I mean, that pmi, that's one of those things that once it's rolled into your mortgage, many people can forget about. But the fact that you remembered it and you were able to get rid of sounds like before when you thought you could because the value of your home increased, which is amazing. So that's something. There's just a tip for all of.

[Jen]

Us, hashtag housing in Florida to be everywhere, really.

[Jill]

Yeah. To take a look at. But then how wise of you to keep paying what you were used to paying towards your mortgage and applying what you were paying to PMI to the principal instead. And the difference that's going to make for you in the long run, that's just. You've just hacked some housing right there. Tim from Florida, well done.

[Jen]

Yeah. I love this because pmi, especially right now, when it's not advantageous to refinance, but so many housing values have gone up to where so many people can get PMI off. And you can make the decision. I can either stop buying lattes and save $120 a month, or I can just look at this one simple thing that I didn't even know existed, or that I could remove and just take it off and I can buy all my lattes and save the same amount and not think about it. It's so easy. And I will say that sometimes you will have to pay. Pay for an inspection, not inspection, appraisal to do that if you're not refinancing. Honestly, it's a lot cheaper. It's like $500 versus closing costs for refinancing. But you would, you would make that out, ideally if the interest rates weren't crazy. So if you think your mortgage has gone up, check Zillow and then take a little bit off of that because Zillow is very generous. See, if you have that 20, 20% equity, I think they might require maybe just a smidge over, they'll automatically take it off, I think at 25% of the loan paid off. But that doesn't necessarily mean you have to pay off 20% of the loan to get PMI removed, you have to have that 20% of equity. So if your house price has gone up, check it, you may be able to get PMI off and have those lattes.

[Jill]

Is love that. If you are listening and you're similar to Tim from Florida just hacking housing and getting rid of PMI and paying down principal or you're like Jen who is just concerned about getting her lattes and no one yelling at her. Thank you. Whatever your bill is, send it to us. Really, truly, we've ripped through a lot of our bills now and we need more. So frugalfriendspodcast.com Bill, leave us your bill. You won't be waiting in the wings for six months anymore.

[Jen]

Yeah, this is not something we thought about when we went to two episodes a week. This was an oversight and we need your help. We need your bills.

[Jill]

We do need your bills. And now it's time for the Lightning round.

[Jen]

The Lightning Round.

[Tom]

There's a moment every parent remembers the day their child takes off on two weeks wheels with Guardian bikes. That moment comes as early as 2 years old and with less stress and frustration. These bikes are built just for kids. Lightweight frames, low center of gravity, easy to use brakes. Everything about Guardian is designed to help kids ride confidently, often in just one day. No training wheels needed. And because Guardian bikes are designed and assembled right here in the usa, you know they're built to last with can care in every detail. Their patented SureStop braking system stops both wheels with a single lever helping your child stop safely without tripping forward or losing control. Right now save hundreds when comparing Guardian to its [e-mail] and get a free lock and pump when you join their newsletter. A $50 value. Visit guardianbikes.com today to save and help your child learn an essential life skill safely. Guardian bikes built for your kid and for the memories you'll never forget. The NBC Nightly News legacy isn't handed down or NBC News.

[Jen]

I'm Tom Brokaw.

[Tom]

We hope to see you back here. I'm Lester Holt. It's carried forward. Tom Yamaz is there for us. Firefighters are still working around the clock. As the world changes, we look for what endures.

[Jen]

We are coming on the air with.

[Tom]

Breaking news right now. We look for a constant and from one era to the next, trust is the anchor for NBC Nightly News, I'm Tom Yamas. A new chapter begins NBC Nightly News with Tom Yamas.

[Jen]

Evenings on NBC.

[Tom]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway. Now through June 24th. Score hot summer savings and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags on items like Pringles, Ritz Crackers and chips, sliced soda, Wonder Buns and Bread, and Natural Choice Lunch meet. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery subject to availability restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.

[Jen]

We're leaving today and entering a world.

[Tom]

Of Cinderella, Castle sightseeing Tron Light cycling.

[Jen]

Jungle cruise punning Pirate swashbuckling at Everest climbing Dapper Danning Danning Soaring, soaring fireworks.

[Tom]

Show of I'm not crying, you're crying.

[Jen]

World of Favorites for whatever you love.

[Tom]

Infinite worlds await at the most magical place on earth.

[Jen]

Walt Disney World Resort. All right, so today in the vulnerability lightning vulnerability, light lighting. Pew pew. How do you divert yourself away from self sabotaging behaviors? Let's give the people some real world actionable tips.

[Jill]

Let's give them something to talk about.

[Jen]

Let's give them something to do.

[Jill]

Okay.

[Jen]

And yours is good, Jill.

[Jill]

Ah, this one took a lot of thought for me. I really had to think through like what, what could be my self sabotaging. And I did mention this already, so. But this is true for me.

[Jen]

Bears repeating.

[Jill]

Yeah, I do pause. I have kind of formed so much of a habit of this that I don't truly hardly notice it anymore. But if I think about my behaviors, I pause. When it comes to spending. Whether I'm at home and shopping online or out in a store, I do regularly check check in with myself to determine how I'm feeling about making the purchases, whether I feel like it's a good decision, if it's actually something that is on the list or is truly going to solve a problem, or if it's in the spending plan. And that pause many times that check in is, yep, good to go, keep moving forward. But there are plenty of times too, where that pause makes me realize, yeah, feeling uneasy about this. I'm feeling kind of uncertain about springing for this item that wasn't on the list. It kind of just caught my eye. I don't actually think I'm going to be like thrilled that I bought this when I get home or when it arrives at my doorstep. And okay, let's take it out of the cart. That can still create more pauses of now. How am I feeling now that it's not in my cart anymore? But this, I think has been something. And I can't totally say when this fully solidified for me as a habit. But now that it's kind of just become part of my regular practices, I think it's a huge thing that has helped me in my finances. Maybe in our after show I'll talk about how that can swing the other way. I realized this. I wanted to talk with you about it.

[Jen]

Okay. I can't wait to hear. For me, I think so I have kind of two things. So the first is now that we're doing more home renovations, we're buying a lot more on Amazon. So before like my, the way I diverted myself was I just like didn't go. Like I didn't have the app. I just stayed off and I would, you know, I would play solitaire or something instead. But now I kind of have to be there. And so I have been kind of doing not a 30 day rule, but like putting things in my car and just leaving them there for like a very long time to make sure that I still want them to make sure I can't find them secondhand or for free on the buy nothing group. So that has been kind of my first one. And then the second, I think my most kind of self, my most destructive spending behavior is definitely like fast food. It's just been a habit since. Since I became a mom, honestly that I have picked up like I never did fast food before I had a child and I was a vegetarian was just like not the only place I could really go would was Taco Bell. And that's not fast food, that's fast Mexican. So it doesn't count. And so this is actually my biggest struggle right now is actually this one. And it's the one that I'm really having trouble overcoming. So I am buying more snacks like snack bars because especially in pregnancy, hunger will just come over me. But the will to make food does not come over me at the same time. And so having kind bars or Rx bars. Bars has been something that has been helpful for me. And I'll keep dried fruit in my glove compartment because that can stay in my hot car and not get gross. So yeah, that has been those tactics.

[Jill]

Nice.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Yeah. And here's the thing too, at least for you, Jen, for right now again, I think life is lived in seasons and I think recognizing what that means for you right now and giving some space for it, maybe even starting to put it into the budget for now because not only are you a mom of a toddler, but you're pregnant. So I don't anticipate that what you're describing is gonna Last super long but you're extra tired and you have extra demands on you and your body that. Okay, so like what if more convenience foods are necessary for the next three months? What could that mean for me and how could I make decisions that feel like more healthy for me but still allows room for convenience? I that there's space for this. Like we're not static, you know.

[Jen]

Right. And the bars are kind of my like compromise to be like I really shouldn't be, you know, going to McDonald's and Chick Fil a as frequently as I am. I want to have more like nutritious foods. But I also don't expect myself to meal prep like I once did in my heyday. So you did have a hay day. Oh girl. Yes, I did. And I. That day. That day is over. The golden years of the sun has set on that day.

[Jill]

The sun might rise again when all of your children are like able to wipe themselves.

[Jen]

Oh gosh, what a dream. You've put hope in my heart.

[Jill]

Oh, I'm so glad. I hope we put hope in all of your hearts today and just at least motivation for curiosity about yourself and how know the makeup of who you are impacts your spending and ways in which you can tailor your spending and your money decisions around that.

[Jen]

Well, we are done for the most part with our renovations and I, I'm not buying as much on Amazon anymore for so I think I have gotten a lot better at this. But I got a dog and I don't know a lot about dogs. So I do have to stop myself from buying things that ads say will be good for your dog or that your dog needs because also all dogs are different. So even somebody like tells me like this is really good for my dog. Dog might not be good for my dog. So that is. I'm having to like give myself like pause.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

On that.

[Jill]

That's tough. That and marketing towards parents, I think just preys upon people because it's what you really care about. There are real problems you're trying to solve for some of them, problems that don't actually have a solution, but they're gonna try and make you think that their product does and doesn't matter to them whether or not it actually works. You've already bought. Oh yeah. We gotta be so careful. Yeah. I mean for me, I still do those check ins. I'm not a super spendy person and I really like to think before I make my purchases. I love having that list in my phone of the things that I'm on the hunt for.

[Jen]

And you just updated that list with your new, new style?

[Jill]

I did, yeah.

[Jen]

Whatever it's called. You got your style done.

[Jill]

Yes. I have a friend, Brenna, shout out to her who does helps people create their own style theory and figure out what clothing works best for their body type, their personality. And it felt like doing our colors 2.0 where, okay, now I know what colors are going to work on me. And now I also know what cuts, fabrics, lines, shapes are going to work best on me. And it, it is making shopping so much easier. And now I can know when I buy this thing, it's going to be a staple. I want it to be long lasting so I can spend the money on, you know, a more ethical or sustainable brand for those things. I'm still on the hunt for a summer dress and a skirt that can be like, versatile.

[Jen]

But she comes into the office this morning like a looker, like, where are you going here?

[Jill]

Just to podcast. I, I thought that we were making video for YouTube today. We're not, we're just, we're just on the mic.

[Jen]

My 2 year old got some kind of schmutz on my shirt, so there was no way I already came. Not ready to record.

[Jill]

I mean, you look great. You got earrings on, your hair's done.

[Jen]

Yeah, well, I didn't. I mean, I wanted to take pride in my appearance.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

I'll never be this young again.

[Jill]

Right. I know. I'm really starting to embrace that. Like when I'm in, when I'm in my 70s, I'm going to look back and think I was so young.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Jill]

So I need to live like that.

[Jen]

Right. And if you need to live like that on a budget. Thank you for listening. We hope you'll continue to listen and if you liked the podcast, I think you'll like our book. Buy what you love without going broke. It is available wherever books are sold and, and at your local library. And our friend Sage Comstock, who I recognize, who we've never actually met, but I recognize Sage's name as a longtime listener had this to say. 5 stars. Financial literacy with a mental health spin. This book was so, so refreshing for me. It's a book about finances with a focus on mental well being. This would be a great book for beginners who are just beginning their financial journey and and more experienced money managers that may be feeling ashamed or looking at money from a place of fear. This book really shines compared to other financial books because the authors call out how our own psychology and commonly held beliefs about money can complicate Money management self sabotage.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

The authors give them self give themselves space to discover their journey with finances in a non judgmental way, which encouraged me to do the same with my own journey. Then they provide actionable steps to manage money with the conscious confines of your own psychology in a way that promotes financial and mental well being. I've been listening to Jen and Jill's podcast for years. Their teachings have helped me turn my financial picture around without the guilt or self flopulation that too often comes with managing money. This book is a fantastic culmination of their expertise. Thank you, Sage.

[Jill]

Sage, that's awesome. Thanks for, thanks for getting the book. Thanks for your review. Thanks for being a longtime listener of the podcast. Podcast. We love our longtime listeners and new listeners. I think the community just keeps growing. So if that's you, if you've been either one, if you're a new listener or a longtime listener and you've never left a rating or review of this show, please do that. If you have the book and you've not left a rating or review of the book, please do that. It really, really helps us. And it's free. It's a free activity that you can do to help help us for free. So thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.

[Jen]

Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni. Oh, wow. Okay. So normally we're recording episodes like a month in advance, but the last couple weeks we've been backloading interview interviews. So this episode actually comes out in one week.

[Jill]

We're just one week away.

[Jen]

One week away.

[Jill]

And so much is going to change. You are going to be anything you want. Oh gosh, get it out now. Won't be any more chances.

[Jen]

Well, it'll still be relevant. You hear me say things. By the time they come out, it's like, well, somebody else said that 10 times over.

[Jill]

Other than the big change of you, you're going to be home with Kai for the summer.

[Jen]

So yes, stay at home mom.

[Jill]

No, we're still running the business. But you will be primarily home with him through the summer.

[Jen]

My mom told somebody that I was a stay at home mom and we keep laughing about why I keep saying that somebody. And the only reason I know is she was standing next to her coworker and in new coworker came in and was like, oh, what does your daughter do? And my mom said, she's a stay at home mom. And the person she's standing next to is like, your daughter is a published author and has a podcast and teaches personal finance. And my mom thought that that was funny that she had like come in. She did not think it was funny that she herself thought I was a stay at home mom. That's not what she told me the story for.

[Jill]

Which is wild to be hearing you describe this because your one child is in school, your other child is in daycare and you come to the office five days a week to work on the business that we co own. So like there's nothing about your situation that is stay at home mom. But what also I realized after you told me this story last week, I had a realization while I was combing my hair the other day thinking about this and just like haha, how funny. And then I paused and thought what does that mean about me? Like I don't have kids. We do the same thing and I don't even have kids. Like what would your mom say about what I do?

[Jen]

And she told me that today and I'm about to go out.

[Jill]

Well, Jill runs the business and you stay at home.

[Jen]

Jill's a business owner.

[Jill]

Jill's a stay at home wife, you know, which is what we, we, we all aspire to be.

[Jen]

That's real good for the summer if I'm gonna be honest.

[Jill]

You know what though? Like if we could just drop off the other role though. I mean like I still want to be married but like just to stay at home. I must stay at home. I don't want, I don't want the title to like reference any kind of responsibility. I just want to doing what I do.

[Jen]

Oh wow.

[Jill]

We can dream, you know, in the summer if you wish. Up on a star.

[Tom]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Now through June 24th. Score hot summer savings and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags on items like Starbucks ground coffee, Red Bull energy drinks, Spam Classic Planet oat milk, Charmin bath tissue, Totino's pizza rolls and Frito Lay chips. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long sa shop in store or online for easy drive up and go, pickup or delivery subject to availability restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details. OpenAI is a financial abomination, a thing that should not be an aberration, a symbol of rot at the heart of Silicon Valley. And I'm going to tell you why.

[Jen]

On my show Better Offline, the rudest.

[Tom]

Show in the tech industry where we're breaking down why OpenAI, along with other AI companies are dead set on lying to your boss that they can take your job. I'M also going to be talking with.

[Jill]

The greatest minds in the industry about.

[Jen]

All the other ways the rich and.

[Tom]

Powerful are ruining the computer. Listen to Better offline on the iHeartRadio.

[Jen]

App Apple Podcasts Wherever you happen to get your podcasts. Hi guys, I'm Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to bring you all Season four A Story of a Cop and His Double Life. I wanted to let you know that you can get access to all episodes of betrayal season 1, 2, 3 and betrayal weekly, and every single episode of Betrayal Season four ad free with an iheartrucrime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts plus. You'll get access to all episodes of Betrayal Season four one week ahead of everyone else, available only to I Heart True Crime plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe today.

[Tom]

We love learning about this extraordinary universe.

[Jill]

And we love sharing what we've learned.

[Tom]

And on our podcast, Daniel and Kelly Extraordinary Universe, that's what we're gonna do.

[Jill]

I'm Daniel.

[Tom]

I'm a particle physicist and I think.

[Jen]

Our universe is absolutely extraordinary.

[Tom]

I'm Kelly Wienersmith. I study parasites and there's just endless.

[Jill]

Things about this universe that I find fascinating.

[Jen]

Basically, we're both nerds. Each Tuesday and Thursday we take an.

[Tom]

Hour long dive into some science topic.

[Jen]

Learn all about our amazing and beautiful universe on Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe Every Tuesday and Thursday on the I Heart Race Radio app, Apple Podcasts or.

[Jill]

Wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast.