Will Dave Ramsey's Baby Steps Work in 2026? (our actual experiences)

Summary

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Frugal Friends Podcast

Episode: Will Dave Ramsey's Baby Steps Work in 2026? (Our Actual Experiences)
Release Date: December 26, 2025
Hosts: Jen Smith & Jill Sirianni

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Overview

This episode takes a deep, nuanced look at Dave Ramsey’s “Baby Steps” for personal finance. Jen and Jill bring humor and real talk as they break down each Baby Step—exploring its origins, why it worked in the early 2000s, and where it now falls short in the reality of 2025 and beyond. They also share alternative approaches and their own experiences, aiming to help listeners make practical, personalized decisions about debt, saving, and investing.

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Main Discussion & Key Insights

1. Setting the Stage—Why Talk About Dave Ramsey?

[01:23 – 03:51]

• Dave Ramsey is a lightning rod in personal finance—people either idolize or vilify him.
• Jen and Jill take a “radical middle” approach, critiquing ideas, not the man.
• “We are not here to clickbait or clout chase. We have what we believe is very valid criticisms about the baby steps in particular.”—Jen [03:51]
• They acknowledge Ramsey’s influence—many have learned fundamental financial principles from him (including both hosts).

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2. The Historical Context of the Baby Steps

[08:52 – 11:19]

• Dave Ramsey’s baby steps developed after his 1988 bankruptcy, gaining popularity through Financial Peace University and The Total Money Makeover (2003).
• The Baby Steps have remained mostly unchanged since then—over 23 years.
• Jen: “People are the same…but technology changes, situations change…operations have to shift with mainly technology, but a lot of other things.” [10:04]

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3. Baby Step 1: Save $1,000 for a Starter Emergency Fund

[11:19 – 16:45]

• In 2000, $1,000 made sense: average rents were $500–650, and emergencies could be cheaper.
• In 2025, $1,000 doesn’t go far—basic car or home repairs almost always exceed that.
  • “Right now, $1,000 can barely cover a basic home or car repair. And that’s typically what you’re going to be using it for.” —Jen [12:12]
  • Cost of living/inflation: $1,000 in 2000 ≈ $1,900 today.
• Recommended update: Minimum $2,000 emergency fund (or up to your health insurance deductible).

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4. Baby Step 2: Pay Off All Debt (Except Mortgage) Using the Debt Snowball

[16:45 – 19:51]

• Debt snowball = pay smallest balances first (for momentum), ignoring interest rates.
• Psychological finance was not mainstream in 2000; now, methods like the debt avalanche (paying highest interest first) are better understood.
• Today: Debts are larger; hybrid approaches make sense (start with small, high-interest debts for quick wins, then pivot based on rates).
  • “Mathematically it doesn’t make sense. Psychologically, it makes the most sense…and money is personal first.”—Jen [18:01]

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5. Baby Step 3: Save 3–6 Months of Expenses

[19:51 – 22:29]

• Not that outdated—still a solid idea.
• Problem: It’s vague. “Six months is literally double three months.” —Jill [20:35]
• Modernization:
  • 3 months: Dual-income, no kids.
  • 6 months: Single income, kids, or both partners in the same field/company.
  • Adjust for health issues, deductibles, etc. Pick your “radical middle.” [20:57–21:25]

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6. Baby Step 4: Invest 15% of Income for Retirement (with a Commissioned Advisor)

[24:10 – 37:36]

Why it made sense in 2000:

• DIY investing was intimidating; internet resources were scarce.
• Index funds weren’t mainstream; mutual funds had high expenses.
• Fiduciary standards didn’t exist; financial education was rare.
• “The way I learned about investing was through podcasts…these avenues were not available in 2000.”—Jen [27:31]

Why it’s outdated in 2025:

• Fees now dramatically lower; commissions unnecessary.
• Index funds available for 0.03% fees (vs. 1%+ in 2000).
• Fiduciary, flat-fee advisors now common.
• Commissioned advisors/smartvestors may cost you six figures over time for no added benefit.
  • “A commissioned advisor over the span of your time investing…could cost you six figures.”—Jill [30:17]
• Dave Ramsey’s network builds by sending “hot leads” to commissioned, not always fiduciary advisors.
  • “Ramsey Solutions is not a personal finance education company. They are a financial services marketing agency…” —Jen [34:47]

Updated Approach:

• Seek a fee-only certified financial planner (fiduciary).
• Use low-cost platforms like Fidelity, Vanguard.
• Learn the basics yourself through books/podcasts (e.g. The Simple Path to Wealth).
• “You can manage your own funds through a Fidelity, through a Vanguard, and that’s the alternative for 2026.”—Jill [37:36]

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7. Baby Step 5: Save for Kids’ College

[37:36 – 40:44]

• Still relevant, especially as 529 plans have modernized:
  • Now cover trade, vocational, apprenticeships, and can be transferred or rolled into a Roth IRA for the beneficiary after 15 years (if not used for education).
• “529s have continued to keep up with the times, even if the baby steps have not, which is saying a lot…” —Jen [38:55]

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8. Baby Step 6: Pay Off Your Home Early

[40:48 – 45:16]

• Made sense when homes were cheap, and mortgage rates fell (early 2000s).
• Much less feasible now: higher prices, higher rates, less disposable income.
• If you must pick a “big goal,” investing will beat early home payoff in today’s environment.
  • “If we’re going to give overarching, large, sweeping recommendations… gotta follow the math. And the math is going to say invest it.” —Jill [44:45]

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9. Baby Step 7: Build Wealth and Give Generously

[45:16 – 50:14]

• The “finish line” of the steps; builds in a psychological payoff.
• Not as clear-cut as it sounds; living aggressively for decades does not translate to suddenly being generous and at ease.
  • “When you haven’t learned how to build a sustainable lifestyle… it must be this and it must be the way I tell you to do it. When we’ve never learned how to make financial decisions for ourselves, we are only following this to the table. What kind of financial person have we become now that we’re dropped off at step seven?”—Jill [49:28]
• The real journey is personalized, finding your own “radical middle.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Both camps are a little out of touch.” —Jen [01:23]
• “It is gold.” —Jill, reacting to Dave Ramsey’s call-in segment [07:46]
• “Money is personal first. It’s personal over finance.” —Jen [18:01]
• “Pick up The Simple Path to Wealth, listen to some podcasts…You can manage your own funds…” —Jill [37:36]
• “You can’t just go up and then take your foot off the gas pedal and go right back down to zero.” —Jen [46:19]
• “We hope you can find a financial journey that makes sense for you…finding your own radical middle.” —Jill [51:21]

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Lightning Round: Personal Finance Rules to Live By

[56:10 – 58:21]

• Jill: “Patience. If I were to think on my whole financial journey, what keeps me anchored…it has to do with patience.” [56:13]
• Jen: “The best way to save money is to spend time making it.” —about side hustling, filling up time so you’re less inclined to spend and more likely to pay down debt. [57:15]

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Listener Bill of the Week

[52:08 – 53:57]

• Anonymous from New Zealand: Shares a clever “bill hack”—using cashback websites for work-related travel expenses paid personally and then reimbursed.
• Jill: “I see no problems. Maybe I’m morally gray…but…if they are having you float the bill and then reimburse you, then yes, you should be getting some version of perks for that.” [53:11]

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The Big Takeaways

• Ramsey’s Baby Steps helped millions, but much is out of date—especially due to inflation, modern investing, and lifestyle shifts.
• Blind adherence to any “one true way” misses the personalization required for real, sustainable financial health.
• Today’s best practice: Learn from diverse sources, seek low-cost/high-quality options, and adjust financial goals for your real life—not someone else’s 2000-era blueprint.
• Find your own “radical middle” and design a financial system that supports your present and future—not just a checklist.

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Want more?
Visit frugalfriendspodcast.com/debtfree to join their upcoming 90-day Debt-Free Fast Track Challenge starting January 1st.

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Produced by Eric Sirianni.

Transcript

[Dave Ramsey]

You hear that?

[Jen]

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[Dave Ramsey]

So why would you ever take a tour? And you could take a detour. Toyota trucks.

[Jill]

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[Jen]

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[Jill]

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[Jen]

Will Dave Ramsey's baby steps work in 2026? Our actual experiences.

[Jill]

Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast, where you'll learn to save money, embrace simplicity, and live a richer life. Here are your hosts, Jen and Jill.

[Jen]

There's nothing that riles a personal finance expert up like talking about Dave Ramsey. They either love him, work for him, he can do nothing wrong, or they hate him and his entire existence is wrong. And I hate to break it to you, but both camps are a little out of touch.

[Jill]

Today we're going to be talking about whether the baby steps are out of touch. Because regardless of what you think about Dave Ramsey, the baby steps are one of the most widely known, widely followed financial advice. And we want you to know the ways that they are still useful and the ways that they need to change. Nothing's the same. I know who to blame.

[Dave Ramsey]

Dave Ramsey ruined Christmas this year.

[Jen]

Welcome Frugal Friends. I'm Jen.

[Jill]

I'm Jill.

[Jen]

And I hope Dave Ramsey didn't ruin your Christmas this year.

[Jill]

He might have maybe been.

[Jen]

I hope it was wonderful. I hope it was fantastic.

[Jill]

Happy New Year.

[Jen]

Happy. It's still December.

[Jill]

We feel like Christmas is over. So it's the new year.

[Jen]

Oh, yeah. So today, regardless of your feelings on Dave Ramsey, we want to talk about his baby steps. Because on Frugal Friends, we critique information and ideas, not people. If you want to hear our criticisms about Dave Ramsey and his company and his culture, not so much Dave Ramsey again, more the company and the culture. We did do an interview on a podcast about it. The podcast is called Sounds like a Cult and we'll link to it in the description below. The Reddit post that I found on it actually agreed that it was a good episode.

[Jill]

Yeah, the thing, it was a great episode. I love doing that episode. And the thing about Dave Ramsey is he is very popular. It's where a lot of people go for personal finance. It's how I first learned some personal finance tenants that I have since kind of reworked. But the thing is, a lot of influencers and experts will gain a lot of clout by being so against Dave Ramsey. It's very clickbaity, it's very, it stirs the emotions. And we think that people who are building their platform by tearing down another person's platform need to be equally as criticized as who they are criticizing.

[Jen]

Amen.

[Jill]

So that's where we're at.

[Jen]

So we are not here to clickbait or clout chase. We have what we believe is very valid criticisms about the baby steps in particular because people are going to turn to financial education, especially at the start of the year. And so I think if you're doing your due diligence to figure out what is valid information and what is not, then that's what we want to be here to do. But first, if you're here because you want to pay off debt, then you've got a particularly good episode because we are hosting a 90 day debt free fast track January 1st through March 31st. And we're doing it for 90 days. Even though all the online education people say don't do anything longer than six weeks, we're doing it for 90 days because we personally have found that doing a long term goal, one that takes more than a couple months, that takes six plus months, the first 90 days are the hardest. They're the ones where yes, six weeks you can stick with something, but beyond that, it's a lot harder to stick with something. And if you can make it through the first three months, if you can build the skills, the habits, rework the mindsets that you currently have that have been getting you off the wagon in the past, then you have a higher likelihood of following through with your debt payoff goal. And so that is why we are hosting the 90 day debt free fast track. And it's going to be three skill building challenges. So we've got a no spend challenge, a meal prep challenge, a side hustle challenge, and we're going to be doing them with you. You're going to get four calls with Jill and I throughout the three months. We've got books, book club, we've got a bunch of stuff and it's at a fraction of the cost that we've seen other podcasters and influencers host their coaching programs. It's not so much a coaching program as it is, we want to be resources for you and we want to talk you off the ledge, so to speak, on the many, many times that you can quit over the first 90 days.

[Jill]

We do believe that any person who goes through these 90 days would be able to pay off an extra $1,000 worth of debt. So our goal is to help our community pay off $100,000 collectively worth of debt, each individual paying off 1,000. We think that the resources we're going to provide for are going to make that possible for you. So if that sounds like a good goal for the new year, let's do it. Let's do it together.

[Jen]

Yes. If you are watching, then the link is in the description. If you're listening, frugalfriendspodcast.com debt free and you only have till January 1st to sign up, so do it right now.

[Jill]

Most of us know Dave Ramsey for stuff like this.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, our next caller up is Stephen from California. Steven, how goes it? I'm good, Dave. How are you? Better than I deserve, thank you. How can I be of assistance today, Dave? I'm more working 60 plus hours a week. I'm making 50, 000 a year and I'm having trouble making this. What sounds like the big problem is you're having trouble making ends meets on $50,000 a year.

[Jen]

Exactly.

[Dave Ramsey]

I don't know how that's possible, my friend. Sounds like you might have a spending problem, but we'll go ahead and dive in. What's your current rent? 2,000amonth. Well, there's your problem out there, Stephen. You're spending $2,000 a month on rent. Why not simply live somewhere that's less expensive? Well, Dave, that was the cheapest area we could find that also had affordable daycare for my daughter. Have a little daughter. She's going to daycare. How much is daycare a month? Fifteen hundred a month? Are you kidding me, Stephen? Fifteen hundred dollars a month in daycare? Oh, I'm trying. I'm trying to be nice. I'm trying to be nice. What are you sending her to daycare on the flipping moon? It's not like that. This is just a classic case of a millennial spending too much money, trying to keep up with the Joneses, when you could simply cut back on your expenses, live somewhere that's cheaper, and just send your daughter to a cheaper daycare. It's that.

[Jill]

It is gold.

[Jen]

Yeah. So you know Dave Ramsey for a lot of stuff like that. And honestly, as people who talk about how to control your spending and talk about how to lower expenses like housing, not so much daycare, because honestly, I spend fifteen hundred dollars a month and.

[Jill]

I think that's a good price on it. Like, that's probably on the more affordable end of things.

[Jen]

Yeah, so, but. So there are a lot of criticisms that Dave Ramsey can draw for being out of touch. And so much of it stems to this inherent, like, inflexibility of holding to the baby steps. They are this core belief, this core principle that cannot be deviated from, because if you. It is so true. If you deviate from this foundation, the whole house starts to crumble. Right. Like, if any deviation comes from it, then what else can change? What else is inaccurate? And so they hold on tightly to this thread.

[Jill]

I think that it could change, and that would be keeping up with the times. It's just not what Ramsey Solutions has chosen to do. But how did we get here? I think it's worth a little history lesson. So Dave Ramsey filed bankruptcy in 1988, and then shortly after started Financial Peace University classes, which still exists today. I personally did do a Financial Peace University, same class.

[Jen]

I have taken one, and I have also taught one.

[Jill]

Oh, nice.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Jill]

And so the baby step framework kind of came out of that. It appeared later in like the mid-1990s and kind of the formal list came together in the early 2000s. And here's the thing, it hasn't been updated since his wildly popular book, the Total Money Makeover, which was published in 2003. So we are roughly 23 years out from what was published then, the advice given then.

[Jen]

But how many things have changed in the last 23 years? How many things have changed in the last six years when it comes to finances, technology, politics, health care, all of these things matter because the world we live in today. Well, I truly believe people are the same. I believe people. We have this common thread that binds us, and I believe all people are 80% the same and with 20% uniqueness. And that if we would listen to each other and get in rooms with each other, we would all figure that out faster. That we are all alike. We are all the same. Right? People are the same. Technology changes, situations change, worlds change, people. Things outside of people change. And that has a great impact on how ideas change, strategies, operations have to shift to shift with mainly technology, but a lot of other things. So that's why we're going to go through all seven baby steps and we're going to first establish why it was a good idea in the year 2000 or the late 90s, why it was Probably a good idea when it was created and what has shifted to potentially make it out of touch now and how we would rewrite them. So let's just start on with the first one to save $1,000 emergency fund.

[Jill]

Yeah, this one definitely made sense back in the late 90s, early 2000s when your average monthly rent was about 500 to 650amonth. And, and I mean I wasn't renting in that time frame, but my first apartment back, back in like the middle, I don't know, or what do they call it, 2000 in 2012. Like I was renting around this, maybe a little bit higher. And so yeah, $1,000 for a repair or emergency could have been covered with that amount of money. When, when, when one of your highest expenses is kind of that low then, then a thousand dollars is a pretty big aim. That could make sense. You know, credit cards were less regulated, they did have higher fees. So even having a small cash buffer prevented some, some of that spiraling debt. So you just didn't need to.

[Jen]

Yeah. And honestly still, I mean even with more regulation we have more interest rates even with lower fees. So again, we can all agree that having a emergency fund is super important. And we can also agree that having a smaller emergency fund while your goal is to pay off debt, can be beneficial. Here's where we deviate from reality. Right now, $1,000 can barely cover a basic home or car repair. And that's typically what you're going to be using it for. You're not even really going to be using it for health care because you typically will get a bill for that health care later on. It's something you can save for. So we're not even talking about health care, but just simple car and home repairs are going to be more than $1,000 in the 2000-20s to 2020, like till now. We also have a higher economic volatility, so we've got a lot of job loss. I think it can be argued whether job loss is higher or lower than it was then. I guess it doesn't have to be argued. I could have just looked at percentages, but I think cost of living is at a, is at an all time high. So even maybe with less job volatility, you still need a higher hedge of protection against job loss. Cause it's happening frequently. You've got higher healthcare deductibles and then inflation adjusted essentials. So it's not again, it's not always an over buying like we've bought $100,000 truck, you know, it's mortgages and rent and daycare, stuff like that is hyper inflated. And so if you're just looking at it mathematically, back in, I would say back in 2000, $1,000, we'll just say the baby steps came from 2000 just for like midpoint ease of math, that would be $1,900 today. So a recommended modern equivalent for a starter emergency fund right now would be at least $2,000. And I think you can go up to whatever your deductible on health insurance is because when you're paying off debt, you're not necessarily building as many sinking funds. So you can't necessarily put those like account for those in your healthcare. So between 2000 and whatever your health.

[Jill]

Insurance deductible, especially because it's worth recognizing that with the baby steps, you, you are only focusing on one goal at a time. And there are parts of that that, yeah, we really love about that you.

[Jen]

Don'T want your goals to compete, but.

[Jill]

It does mean that this is the benchmark amount of money that you are saving until you move on to the debt payoff goal. And you are not revisiting that emergency fund until the debt is paid off. So, yeah, while $1,000 might be a reach for someone to save, if it's not going to cover an emergency for you while you are then in the debt payoff process, it's not enough.

[Jen]

Not doing, you're not ready.

[Jill]

Yeah, you're not ready to move on. So you need, if this is kind of your last ditch effort of savings before we move into throwing money at debt, it needs to be a solid chunk of change that's going to actually cover an emergency.

[Jen]

If you felt, if you've tried to pay off debt over and over and something just keeps going, coming up that derails you every time, it's probably because your starter emergency fund isn't big enough. And I know it can feel like, oh, I'm just like saving and then depleting and then, you know, working on this emergency fund again. If you work it up to $2,000, then maybe replenishing it doesn't have to be as essential of a singular goal. You can then do both at the same time. Because maybe you do have $1,000 emergency, but you have 2,000 in your starter emergency fund, then you can take a little bit more time saving up that thousand than you would if you completely depleted it to zero. Because the chances of having $2,000 emergencies back to back are low. Can happen. But then even better you've got 2,000 in the savings account. So I think if you have experienced this, you know, life keeps coming at me and keeping me from paying it off. You need a higher starter emergency fund to start out.

[Jill]

Baby step number two is to pay off all debt except for the mortgage using the debt snowball. So refresher on the debt snowball, that's paying off your smallest debt first. Just like the balance of the debt, if it's the smallest one, pay off that, then the next one, then the next one, then the next one. So it's not paying any attention to interest rates. One, which made sense at the time, let's call it in 2000. Psychological finance was not mainstream. People didn't totally. People weren't talking about kind of the ways that our emotions and cognitive biases play into how we approach money as much. So it just wasn't as known. And the debt snowball can be a great method for some people. But again, this is kind of touted as the only method for baby step two. And, and it also made sense because the average consumer debt was lower. Credit card balances were about 50 to 70% lower in real terms. Like if all things are equal to today's dollars, that's how much less people were paying off. And so not, not even needing to totally be paying as much attention to interest rates was a part of the equation here.

[Jen]

Today we have a lot more debt, which makes using something like the debt avalanche over the debt snowball a little bit more compelling. Now I will say one of the things I do appreciate appreciate about the baby steps is the behavioral psychology. It does use this one goal at a time method, which when we don't have competing goals, we reach the one goal that we do have faster. I love the book the One Thing by Gary Keller, Jay Papasan. That's what it's all about. And then you have this debt snowball idea where you're seeing quick wins in the beginning so that you build that momentum. Mathematically it doesn't make sense. Psychologically, it makes the most sense. And money is personal first. It's personal over finance. And so we need to be working with our psychology if we want to reach these financial goals. But I think for a modern version, we might use a hybrid. And so we've talked, we did an episode on the best debt payoff method, debt avalanche versus debt snowball. And we'll link that in the description. But ultimately I think using a hybrid. So if you do have credit card debt, that high, high interest credit card debt knocking that out first and you can use a snowball within it. So maybe you have three credit cards of varying balances, all high. I think whether you have like 18, 20, 25, they're all high. It doesn't matter at that point which one you're paying off first. So you start with the lowest one and then work your way up and you get those quick wins that way. And then you're going on to lower interest debt.

[Jill]

Number three, save three to six months of expenses. So why it made sense in the in early 2000s, late 90s was job stability was higher. Layoffs were a little bit less common than they are today. Benefits were offered at more places, they lasted longer. Healthcare deductibles and out of pocket costs were dramatically lower. Just a lot of things were not what they are today. But here's the thing, it's not actually that outdated. We still do recommend 3 to 6 months of living expenses. However, the problem is it's super vague. Yeah, what does that mean? Like six months is literally double three months.

[Jen]

That was always. So when I was taking Financial Peace University and going through the baby steps and teaching it, that was a big question that I had and other people had. How do I know? 3, 6, 4, 5.

[Jill]

Like, like we're literally talking the difference of like 20,000, 45,000. That's a big difference.

[Jen]

What a big jump. And that's before you invest. So I'm spending how many months saving this? 3 to 6 months of ambiguous expenses. So what we have learned and kind of derived out of our own experience is that we've settled on three or six and kind of you can decide if you fall somewhere in the radical middle, that it's up to you. If you are a two income household, no kids, you know, free as a bird, three months. Right. All the way to if you have one income. If you're a single income household with kids, or maybe you have two incomes but they're both from the same company, like even in different departments, like you work in HR and your partner works in IT and it's just for the same company that would same field or even the same field, like you're both in tech. That would be also an instance where you'd want six months, I think depending on how many kids you have, deductibles, stuff like that. If we have any chronic illnesses or disabilities, you know, stuff like that, we can kind of pick our own radical middle there. But I would say that is the General consensus in 2025, 2026 on a full emergency fund, the World is full of tours.

[Dave Ramsey]

But you don't choose a Toyota truck to follow the beaten path.

[Jen]

You choose it to find the places in between.

[Dave Ramsey]

The detours where each adventure pulls you toward the next.

[Jen]

And wrong turns turn out right.

[Dave Ramsey]

So why would you ever take a tour when you could take a detour? Toyota trucks.

[Jill]

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[Jen]

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[Jill]

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[Jen]

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[Jill]

See mintmobile.com all right, number four, here we go. We about to go off on this month.

[Jen]

Come back to me. If you are driving in the car zoning out, you should come back. Like in general, if you're doing that, just zone back in.

[Jill]

The most concerning baby step investors. 15% of household income for retirement with a commissioned financial advisor.

[Jen]

Now I don't have a problem with the 15%.

[Jill]

That's great. That's a great goal, right?

[Jen]

We got people over in the fire movement that are like invest 30 to 50 to 80% of your income. And I'm like please God, no thank you. I've got things to do. I've got iced coffee to buy.

[Jill]

15 I am not a multimillionaire.

[Jen]

I don't need to be a multimillionaire. I need to be caffeinated. Okay? How am I going to get to a million if I don't have caffeine, right? Anyways, so 15 I don't have a problem with. Like if you're starting A little later. Yeah, you'll have to bump that up to 20 or 25. But the percentage doesn't bother me. But what bothers me is the way that Dave Ramsey says to invest 15% of your household income. And we've got bullet points for each. So this is why it made sense. And you've got so many people that will bash on the baby steps specifically for this baby step, without taking into account why it was actually a good idea in 2000. So in 2000, DIY investing was intimidating. You did not have as much Internet affluence or, you know, literacy. Internet literacy as many people. There were no YouTube explainers, there were no podcasts, no robo advisors.

[Jill]

Yeah, we didn't have a computer in 97. Wasn't even.

[Jen]

Yeah, we had one, but all I did was like write papers on it.

[Jill]

In 97, you had a computer.

[Jen]

I was an only child.

[Jill]

Oh, wow.

[Jen]

I know, I know. My parents also didn't save for retirement.

[Jill]

So, you know, the money went to the computer.

[Jen]

The money went to the computer. Right. And so he loves Roth IRAs. We love Roth IRAs. Everybody loves Roth IRAs. Roth IRAs were not invented until 1997. You couldn't get one till 1998. So in 2000 they were only two years old. We kind of take that for granted.

[Jill]

Yeah, it is wild. There's a lot about investing that is like relatively new. New things are being offered, which is why it's so important to stay up to date. So much has changed. For instance, index funds were not mainstream in the 2000s. Actively managed mutual funds were the default choice. And at the time, costs were higher everywhere. Like a 1% expense ratio was not unusual. That just kind of came with the territory of investing. Not the case today. Spoiler. But we'll get there.

[Jen]

Yeah. There were really no fiduciary standards among financial advisors. So a commission based advisor did not have the same red flags because consumers didn't know the difference. There really wasn't a difference.

[Jill]

And financial education was scarce, as we've talked about. Like, I didn't have a computer. Where was I going to? Where was I going to learn my stuff? We like bought encyclopedias from the door to door. Salesman. I am sounding quite old, but it did happen.

[Jen]

The way I learned about investing was through podcasts, Stacking Benjamins and Afford Anything and the Simple Path to Wealth, which was a self published book. It was not published by a traditional publisher.

[Jill]

No way.

[Jen]

These avenues were not available in 2000.

[Jill]

So, I mean, an advisor with one of those kind of teaching mindsets was going to be really helpful to people in avoiding big mistakes. And we still think that that's the case. We still think people can benefit from a helpful financial advisor with a fiduciary responsibility. We did a whole episode on that.

[Jen]

Which is why we are becoming certified financial planners with fiduciary standards.

[Jill]

If we can learn the math, yeah.

[Jen]

We can learn the math.

[Jill]

This is the only realistic way for beginners to be able to invest. And I do love that the baby steps make investing that mainstream. Right. If a lot of people are learning about finances through the baby steps, that's a great thing. Have a benchmark guideline of a percentage of your take home income that you are investing regularly towards retirement. Yes, I'm all here for it, but the breakdown is in paying astronomical fees to people who do not have your best interests at heart.

[Jen]

And so here's why all of that has changed over the last 23 years. Today, fees are dramatically lower and commissions are unnecessary.

[Jill]

So there are some good things happening.

[Jen]

Okay, my friends, things are looking up in some areas. So in 2000, a typical mutual fund expense ratio was one to one and a half. In 2025, technology has made investing more accessible and lower cost than ever. You can invest in a total market index fund for less than 0.03 percent1 versus 0.03, which doesn't sound like a lot, but when you start getting you're thinking retirement, you're hoping to save 500,000 to a million dollars. That becomes significant when we get into big numbers like that. Commissions are zero on nearly every investing platform. Because now we can go straight to the brokerage, we don't need a middleman to invest. And many advisors now offer flat fee or subscription based fiduciary models so that when we do need to consult a financial planner because of insurance, taxes, complicated inheritance, investments, stuff like that, we don't have to seek out somebody who works on commissions and who may offer us a product because it offers them a higher commission. We can go to fiduciaries whose legal obligation is to offer us what is best for us, not just what is suitable.

[Jill]

This advice in the Ramsey method of the baby steps can push you as an investor towards paying 10 to 50 times more in fees for no proven benefit between we've got front end loads, high expense ratios, trailing commissions, underperformance. A commissioned advisor over the span of your time investing, if it's a couple decades, could cost you six figures. Investing in this way and financial planners are not cheap.

[Jen]

You'll pay around 1,000 to $3,000 to see one. But over 20 years that's a maximum of probably $20,000 that you would pay someone like maximum high end versus over 20 years with a commissioned actively managed mutual fund financial planner, six figures. So like where is, where is the benefit for the same amount of help.

[Jill]

Yeah. Because commissioned advisors are not always working in your best interest. It does not mean the same thing as having a fiduciary responsibility to you. There can be a best fit which is not the same thing as what is going to actually be within your best interest or suitable. That's the better word. It's suitable to you but might not be in your best interest. And those could be drastically different things. And for the smart investors, the elps, smartvestor smart vestors.

[Jen]

So you've got endorsed for Dave Ramsey recommends endorsed local providers and smart smartvestors. I don't know what the difference is. It used to just be all ELP but now we've who knows.

[Jill]

Also got SmartVestors 100% of the time, not fiduciaries.

[Jen]

I would say. Okay, I wouldn't say maybe 100% of the time. Maybe that was like a. It's not 100% of the time. Are they fiduciaries.

[Jill]

I like saying it the other way better. It's just throwing out stats.

[Jen]

I have heard and if you've had experiences with this, I would love to know in the comments. I have heard so many people try to meet with a SmartVestor or ELP thinking that they're going to someone who agrees with the baby steps knows what's happening is they're on the same page and that person does not follow Dave Ramsey and they barely know what the baby steps are and they're all they have to do is sign an agreement that the baby steps are good. Right. And then they get to pay Dave Ramsey money to advertise and send them hot leads, not even warm leads. So warm leads are in sales. You've got a cold lead who you're kind of cold calling and they may not be interested. A warm lead kind of sends a informational like I want more information. But they're not committed. Hot leads are like what Dave Ramsey has. You're submitting kind of like an information request from somebody you really deeply trust and are going to listen to like whatever they have to say to you. So when they send you that list of three SmartVestor options, you're already bought in. You are. You're going to go with one of them. You just have to vet out the right one. And I've heard something, so many sad stories from people thinking that they're, you know, going to see somebody who's drink the same koola they have and they're just sorely disappointed.

[Jill]

Yeah, I think when you've built that level of trust and then you're sending people to like potentially charlatans, then it can be really dangerous when you don't recognize that these people in this program are incentivized to sell you products. Whether that's high cost, actively managed funds. It could be variable annuities, proprietary funds. There's like a lot of different terms that are probably going to sound really complicated to you. To me too. And okay, you must know you're coming from a recommended trusted source.

[Jen]

So.

[Jill]

All right, let's go. Not really realizing that this could cost you again hundreds of potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars in the long run.

[Jen]

And herein lies the problem with the baby steps, the systemic problem. The baby steps will not change, even though they could. The baby steps could change, but they will not.

[Jill]

Well then what would we talk about?

[Jen]

But what happens is that Ramsey Solutions and I knew I, I know I said I wouldn't talk about the company or the culture, but this is relevant. Ramsey Solutions is not a personal finance education company. They are a financial services marketing agency and they get hot leads for these financial services people who pay them money through their financial education. It's all a cycle. Right. Dave Ramsey isn't getting rich off $150 financial pace university. Right. And like $99 a year for every dollar. That's not what he's doing. He's in a cycle. So he can get these financial services firms to pay him like $500 a month to market their services to these hot vetted leads. And that herein lies the problem. So this is so yeah, these commission advisors don't work in your best interest and they're not needed anymore because we have things like indexes funds. Which leads us to the next reason. Actively managed funds rarely outp outperform index funds when you account for fees. And they can give you all the data they want about how, how much they've beat the market. And I don't doubt they have. But when you're charging me 1% for assets under management and then I've got a front load fee, a back end fee, I've got a 12B1 fee which is me paying for you to market the fund so other people can also pay the fees. It's just not outperforming when you take into account the fees.

[Jill]

So a better way, if you want to be talking with somebody, knowing that you can trust the person who's giving you the advice, look for a fee only certified financial planner. I mean, that's going to be. They have a fiduciary responsibility to you to work in your best interest, not just what's most suitable for you. You will know the amount of money up front that you're paying them, but also understand that you can understand the basics of investing, particularly when you're just investing for retirement, when you just want your money to grow long term. Pick up the simple path to wealth, listen to some podcasts who will give you some of that introductory knowledge of investing, and certainly talk to somebody who you can feel like, all right, making sure that I'm doing the thing that is going to be good for me long term. But you can manage your own funds through a Fidelity, through a Vanguard, and that's the alternative for 2026.

[Jen]

So baby step five is then to start saving for kids college. And I would say that this is still relevant, but not because the baby steps are so relevant, but because actually the ways to save for college have updated and we'll talk about that in a second. But college tuition was a fraction of what it is today from 2000. So planning early. And more people went to college too. So planning early, genuinely, you could have sent your kids to school debt free and that was an option. And 529 plans were newer and offered large tax advantages. So that was also something that it was more attractive to start to save for your kids college versus just putting more money away for your retirement. And thankfully 529s have continued to keep up with the times, even if the baby steps have not, which is saying a lot, because they're dictated by Congress and Congress has a lot. It's hard for them to get something done unless it benefits them. And 529s genuinely benefit them. So that's why that was able to update.

[Jill]

That happened.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Yeah. And thankfully, 529 plans include things beyond college, which is why we can feel more comfortable investing in them. Because you could use them for trade schools, vocational programs and certificates, apprenticeships. They are registered with the Department of Labor, so you can help the apprenticeships that are.

[Jen]

I should have put it in a bullet form. Sorry.

[Jill]

No, that's all right.

[Jen]

Apprenticeships that are registered with the Department.

[Jill]

Of Labor helps with student loan repayment. And I think after a certain amount of time you can also choose. Let's Say your child doesn't end up using the money like other people in the family can. They can be transferred so it's not to be wasted.

[Jen]

New as of 2024, if your 529 for your child has been open at least 15 years and say they don't go to college, you can then roll that into a Roth IRA for the beneficiary, which is great. So many people have been kind of skirting that because to have a Roth IRA for your child, they have to have earned income. And so they'll be giving their kid, you know, kind of this, giving them a job and then opening a Roth IRA for them. You don't have to do that anymore. Now you can just open a 529 for them, put all the money there. If they go to college, great. They go to a trade school or an apprenticeship, great. If not, then after that is opened for 15 years, it just rolls right into a Roth IRA. Not automatically you have to do it, but it's for that reason. Saving for your kids college, if you can, if you have the resources to, is a great idea. Even if they don't end up going to college.

[Jill]

Yeah, so we do love that one.

[Jen]

Thank you. 529.

[Jill]

Yeah. Number six of the baby steps is to pay off your home early. Okay, here's why it made sense. Back then, mortgage rates were falling from the high rate, high rates of the 80s. So refinancing lump sums did save you like huge amounts of money. But also homes were dramatically cheaper. So a 15 year period, you didn't know that already.

[Jen]

Much more realistic in case you didn't.

[Jill]

Know how much were homes in 1999.

[Jen]

They were cheaper in the 90s. So now you know, the more, you.

[Jill]

Know, 15 year mortgage was. Yeah, you could do that reasonably.

[Jen]

You could pay off 15 year mortgages. I've loved watching all the memes of Dave Ramsey reacting to the 50 year mortgage.

[Jill]

That is very funny.

[Jen]

It has been very funny. But yeah, it was more feasible even Honestly, anything before 2020 I think you could feasibly fit in a 15. Our first home we have in a 15 year mortgage. The home we live in now. 30 year could not handle a 15. Absolutely not. And we started with a 30 year in that home and when we refinanced, when rates were lower, that's when we were able to go into a 15 because we got even lower rates. Yeah. So yeah. But now I don't know if you've noticed home prices are a little cheap, a little more expensive. Almost said Cheaper.

[Jill]

Almost said, we don't say the C word.

[Jen]

We don't. We don't. You know, I try to not say that in front of my children. So we've got much higher home prices. We have much higher interest rates, which I believe interest rates are on the way down. We just did a refinancing your mortgage episode because there's been two. There's already been two rate cuts, and I think there's. There might be one more which will affect mortgage rates not directly, but indirectly. So if you were able to for both reasons, okay, maybe you do have one of those homes from the early 2000, and maybe you got to lock in a lower interest rate with the refinancing in 2020. It just makes more sense to up your investing from 15 to 20%. It just makes more sense. The S&P 500, the total stock market, it's returning. It's 12% over 30 years. And with inflation, that's still around 9%. So that's more than 2 to 3. It makes sense if you can stay disciplined. On the other hand, if you have a higher home price, then it still makes more sense to invest because you have less disposable income. Right.

[Jill]

So a payoff is going to be decades long and could crowd out whatever money that you could then also invest with. And especially because this is often, again, like one track mind with the goal. Like Ramsey Solutions does not love multiple goals at the same time. Right. They don't talk about investing alongside debt payoff. And so, yeah, to be paying off your house while also investing, like, yeah.

[Jen]

That could be really competitive investing as a goal. Investing is not a goal. It's just a step along. Yeah. So the debt payoff, the emergency fund, and the paying off the home, these are the big goals that people seek on the baby steps. And you've got to have those goals to keep people engaged in your ecosystem, to keep them available to be hot leads for your marketing service.

[Jill]

Yeah. So ultimately we would say in today's environment to invest more. If you've got money that. That could be thrown towards home payoff, invest it.

[Jen]

You're have an investing goal. If you need a goal, have an investing goal.

[Jill]

Refinance when rates drop and then invest more. That's not to say if you are a person who this is just a goal of yours. Okay, fine. But if we're going to give overarching, large, sweeping recommendations to people, then we've got to follow the math. And the math is going to say invest it. You're going to Be better off putting that money away towards retirement, not crowding out your money by trying to pay off a mortgage. Hopefully you were able to refinance to a lower rate. You're going to be better off putting the money away.

[Jen]

Yeah. And the last baby step, build wealth and give generously. Which why it made sense in 2000s. Because ain't nobody was given. Everybody selfish. Nobody. I'm just kidding. No.

[Jill]

This is where we disagree.

[Jen]

Yeah. No, people have always been generous. But I do think that this is a cap that kind of sells the baby steps. Right. Because everybody wants to be at baby step seven so that we can give generously. Everybody wants to be able to give generously to the causes that they care about and to the things and the people that they care about. And so that's kind of this deeper why that threads through all of the baby steps is getting to seven and it gives people a clear psychological finish line, which is also very important. Again with the behavioral psychology wrapped up into all this. And we think that's great. But we also see that you don't go from zero to 60, back down to zero as quick. Like, you can't just go up and then take your foot off the gas pedal and go right back down to zero. Right. When I paid off my debt, I didn't reach debt freedom and then be like, okay, I'm cool. Like, I'm chilling, I'm living now. No, I was just as zealous as I was the day before. But then I just wanted to redirect it to a different goal, which is why there are goals in the baby steps. Right. Personally, I chose to put it into investing versus home payoff. The same mindset can thread through here where we will hold on to this build wealth part too closely. And I think that can really make us suffer when it comes to lifestyle design, when it comes to enjoying our family and like taking our foot off the gas. So this is, I think for sure not an end point, but just another step on the journey. You're always going to be learning what's the balance between earning, investing, giving and resting.

[Jill]

Yeah, that's so helpful. I remember when I went through the Financial Peace University that this was such.

[Jen]

A.

[Jill]

Idealized place of arrival. It felt that way. And I remember feeling like I can't wait to get to that place point where I am just building wealth and giving generously. But there wasn't. That was not a long drawn out part of the course. Like, it just kind of assumed, at least from my perspective, that once you get there you, you just understand money and you know what this means and you know how to do it. And now that I'm in a place of investing regularly, having my debt paid off, I'm realizing, oh no, I have not arrived and I don't have a solid handle on what it does mean to give generously. And kind of to your point of, you know, there's all these different goals and you can go so hard at them, especially if you did just do the last goal of paying off your home. Like, you are accustomed to a very aggressive lifestyle, right?

[Jen]

Aggressive. Is that a good word, Gazelle?

[Jill]

Like intensity is aggressive. And how we now just gonna be like, oh yeah, now we're just. Now we're just coasting, we're building wealth and we're giving generously. I don't think the one translates to the other. I think that's the whole to poke here. Not that this shouldn't be happening. Like, I do think I like the idea of it. Build wealth, give generously. That's beautiful. But I don't think there's the like meat and potatoes around those bones enough to kind of like flesh that out of. What does that mean when you've been so aggressive? When you haven't learned how to build a sustainable lifestyle? When it's just been like, do this, do this, do this.

[Jen]

When you've been aggressive for 20 plus.

[Jill]

Years and when big hole again to be poked in the baby steps is don't ever think for yourself or deviate from this. It must be this and it must be the way I tell you to do it. When we've never learned how to make financial decisions for ourselves, we are only following this to the table. What does it mean? What kind of financial person have we become now that we're dropped off at step seven? Granted, a lot of people who have finally make it to step seven are, you know, hopefully there's other life that you've learned along the way to kind of fill in the gaps. But it's like you just kind of get dropped off a cliff then like, where's the exact blueprint to be following? Doesn't exist anymore. Because really we should have been understanding our own rhythms all along the way.

[Jen]

And I think most people will. And I think if you're new, if you're here listening to this because this is new to you, I think you don't have to worry because I think most people do maybe start with this and then transcend it. It's like that Shu Ha Ri that we talk about in our book Buy what yout Love Without Going Broke is you follow a teacher, you know, without question for a little bit, and then you start to look for other teachers and start to question and learn other things. And then once you feel like you have a sense of mastery, then you transcend the rules and you kind of create your own radical middle for yourself and your family. And I think that is what's healthy. And I think you will get there. You're already thinking critically because you're watching this and let us know what you think in the comments. Did you come here because you wanted to hate on us because we don't work for Dave Ramsey? Or did you come here because you wanted us to bash on Dave Ramsey and you're disappointed that we didn't, or you appreciated the radical middleness of the approach? Let us know all of it and.

[Jill]

We hope you can find a financial journey that makes sense for you. Yeah, finding your own radical middle and speaking of things that work for us.

[Jen]

And that we have found that we have yet to find anybody to criticize, even on Reddit.

[Jill]

Oh my gosh. The bill of the week.

[Jen]

The bill of the week. This is the pillow. This is the pillowy. That's right.

[Jill]

It's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name is William. Maybe you paid off your mortgage. Maybe your car died and you're happy to not have to pay that bill anymore.

[Jen]

Duck Bills.

[Jill]

Buffalo Bills. Bill Clinton. This is the bill of the week.

[Jen]

Hi, Jen and Jill. I'm going to call myself Anonymous because I've figured out this little bill hack that I think I could potentially get in trouble for. So I'm Anonymous from New Zealand. I work at a job where I need to travel a little bit, but unfortunately I don't have a company credit card. So all of my travel I have to book on my own personal card and then I get reimbursed by the business. So so I was booking some hotels recently and I realized I was making the bookings through booking.com I was like, hang on, booking.com are on cashback. So I made the bookings through my cashback account through booking.com. so I actually ended up making money from this bill because I expensed the full amount back to my business and I got reimbursed and then I got my cash back on top of that. So yes, Sneaky little hack for anybody who has to pay for their own business travel. Thank you guys. Love the podcast.

[Jill]

Anonymous from New Zealand. I love this. I see no problems Maybe I'm morally gray and I myself am a bit ambiguous on ethics, but I think that this is fine. Because you know what? If you did have a company credit card, that company's getting the perks, they're going to utilize the perks. But if they are having you float the bill and then they reimburse you, then yes, you should be getting some version of perks for that. It's coming out of your pocket.

[Jen]

That's money you could have invested and you're losing time in the market for having to wait to be reimbursed for that expense to then put it in the market. So this cash back is just a reimbursement for the time value of money that you've lost.

[Jill]

Look at her with her CFP terms. This is amazing and well done. Anonymous and enjoy those those perks. If you all are listening, have a bill that you want to submit. If it has to do with things that you think might be illegal or.

[Jen]

Your name is Bill, we would love to hear those.

[Jill]

Call it in as anonymous, but if you are Bill, please tell us that your name is Bill. Frugalfriendspodcast.com Bill we can't wait to hear it.

[Jen]

Life insurance was one of those things I kept putting off. It felt overwhelming and honestly a little uncomfortable to think about. But once we had kids, it stopped feeling optional. I started thinking about things like the mortgage, childcare and everyday expenses and realized this is something I needed to handle for my family's sake.

[Jill]

And that's why Fabric by Gerber Life stood out to us. Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done today made for busy parents like you, all online on your schedule, right from your couch. You could be covered in under 10 minutes with no health exam required.

[Jen]

If you've got life insurance through work, it might not be enough and it doesn't follow you if you change jobs. Fabric offers flexible coverage that fits your family and budget and they partner with Gerber Life, trusted by families for over 50 years. It finally felt like a responsible box.

[Jill]

Checked Join the thousands of parents who trust fabric to help protect their family. Apply today in just [e-mail] frugal that's meetfabric.com frugal M E-E-T fabric.com frugal policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions. Say what you want about AI, but it's here and it's helping businesses get more done in a day. Wix's website builder is infused with AI so you can stay ahead. Create a beautiful, functional website just by describing your idea. Track how your site appears in AI search results, create custom images on demand, or launch an entire campaign in a matter of minutes. WIX gives you AI wherever you need it. Try it now for [e-mail] and now it's time for the lightning round.

[Jen]

What is a financial rule you live by, Jill?

[Jill]

Patience. Patience. Ako.

[Jen]

Anyone? Aladdin? You are Jafar. Jill, you are Jafar. 100%.

[Jill]

I'll take it.

[Jen]

You are Jafar. Yes.

[Jill]

Bird on my shoulder.

[Jen]

And Eric is Princess Jasmine.

[Jill]

Halloween inspiration.

[Jen]

I can't wait.

[Jill]

Yeah. I mean truly, if I were to think on my whole financial journey, what is the thing that keeps me anchored and allows for some like quote unquote successful experiences with money? I think it has to do with patience. I think it is a tenet of frugality.

[Jen]

Yes.

[Jill]

We don't jump on making purchases like the first time we see them. We wait for the deal. We do the research. Sometimes we say no to ourselves and others and it's just patience.

[Jen]

I love that. Mine is for anybody who's paying off debt or wants to pay off debt. This is for you. I used to say this when I was paying off debt and also frugalfriendspodcast.com debt free. Definitely. Check out the debt free fast track. The best way to save money is to spend time making it. And you could also rephrase it. The best way to spend less money is to spend more time making it. I found that to be true when I was side hustling and I had extra jobs. I had far less time to browse Amazon, you know, go to coffee shops, buy stuff at the mall, all that.

[Jill]

Yeah, it especially helped when we made this hobby our jobs.

[Jen]

Just turning hobbies that you love into income generating businesses. But if it works, that I don't believe in.

[Jill]

If the shoe fits.

[Jen]

But if it does work, then do it. But I don't believe every hobby has to be monetized.

[Jill]

It doesn't have to be. It's just what we choose to do. Pretty much every time.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Jill]

Thanks everyone for being here and for your kind reviews on our book Buy what yout Love Without Going Broke. Like this one from Jessica. Five stars. Many personal finance books are lacking the personal aspect and truly identifying what you value and what aligns with you as a person. This book did just that. Loved the constant encouragement and doable ideas to figure out what you love and the best way to manage your money that is personal to you.

[Jen]

Oh, thank you so much, Jessica. We love reading your book or your reviews of the book. BuyWhatYouLoveBook.com if you haven't gotten a chance to read our book, you can get links to buy it there and to reserve it from your library if it's not already available there. And please, if you haven't subscribed to the YouTube channel, even if you're not listening over on YouTube, please take a minute to subscribe. It's so helpful for us. All of the baby steps videos are from people who work for Dave Ramsey, including the one that says addressing the criticisms. So we would like people to see this one because we feel like it's an unbiased criticism of the baby steps. So please like comment, subscribe, help this video reach more people who are doing this research. And thank you so much for being here.

[Jill]

See you next time.

[Jen]

Bye. Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni. I said unfortunately at the end of my like, unfortunately it turned all of our hobbies into money making. And I was like, and I didn't mean the podcast. That's probably the best. But that one didn't feel like a hobby. That one was work related.

[Jill]

It was my hobby.

[Jen]

I guess it was your hobby for me.

[Jill]

It was a marketing arm for you.

[Jen]

Yes, but I think it's unfortunate and we did an episode on this how like TikTok is ruining hobbies. But we didn't like mention really the monetization aspect of like, nobody feels like they can rest. Everyone feels like they need to be productive and doing something even in their rest. And I think that's unfortunate.

[Jill]

How do we get out of it?

[Jen]

By watching the Stranger Things finale? By binging the last four seasons up until now and then watching the finale, which is what I have been doing. And it's worked for me. You can't monetize this tv. I guess you could monetize it. Social media is weird, but I'm not. I'm not doing it.

[Jill]

Watch more tv. Done. I don't know about you, but when I'm using AI for my business, I don't need it to tell me what to do. I know what I want. I just need help making it happen. With wix, I finally have an AI tool that gets things done the way I want. I just have to describe the type of website I need and it's ready. I can even ask it to manage my inventory, plan my next marketing campaign, or help out my customers. Wix gives me AI wherever I need it. Try it [e-mail] if you're the purchasing.

[Dave Ramsey]

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