Women Are IGNORING These 5 Levels of Wealth And It’s Doing More Harm Than Good

Summary

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Frugal Friends Podcast

Episode: Women Are IGNORING These 5 Levels of Wealth And It’s Doing More Harm Than Good
Hosts: Jen Smith & Jill Sirianni
Release Date: September 26, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles a subject often overlooked in personal finance conversations—how women move through five distinct levels of wealth beyond just “net worth." Jen and Jill explore why focusing solely on contentment and gratitude can limit potential, and why failing to recognize, pursue, or talk about these levels can actually harm long-term wellbeing for women and their loved ones. The hosts advocate for holistic wealth, where financial progress should meaningfully unlock time, social, mental, and physical resources—not just a big bank account.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Challenging the Standard Narrative of Wealth

• Contentment vs. Potential:
  [01:22] Jen poses a core question—are contentment and gratitude key to a rich life or do they sometimes hold us back?

  • “Am I fulfilling my potential or have I stopped short to maintain sanity, relationships, societal, cultural norms?” (Jen, 01:22)

• Women and Under-discussed Wealth Stages:
  [02:15] Jill argues that women, in particular, are harmed by not understanding wealth's stages—without these conversations, it’s easy to get stuck, not know where you are or where you’re heading.

2. Their Approach to Wealth: Beyond Numbers

• Rejecting Net Worth Brackets:
  [06:17] The hosts dislike attaching wealth to arbitrary dollar amounts.

  • “It’s not so much about the number... but about what each level allows you to pursue.” (Jill, 06:17)

• Inspiration from Sahil Bloom’s ‘Five Types of Wealth’:
  [06:53] Only one of Bloom’s types is financial, but Jen points out you need financial stability first to pursue the others.

• Holistic Wealth:
  [09:38] Jill summarizes the five “types”—financial, time, social, mental, physical—and emphasizes their interconnectedness.

3. The 5 Levels of Wealth (and What Each Unlocks)

1. Survival ([12:44])

• Focus: Meeting immediate needs—food, shelter, bills.
• Energy is spent reacting, not planning.
• Capacity for other forms of wealth (mental, social, time) is minimal.
• Key Insight: It's okay to focus on finances alone at this stage—ignore social media pressure to do more.
• Quote:
  “Forget all of it and just focus on this one thing, like earning enough to move to the next level of wealth.” (Jen, 15:43)

2. Stability ([16:44])

• Needs are consistently met.
• Savings/basic budgeting on autopilot; may have small emergency fund.
• Still vulnerable to major unexpected expenses.
• Now able to invest in relationships ("social wealth") and community.
• Quote:
  “When we know the electric bill is going to be covered... it frees me up to be able to say, how can I invest in my friendships?” (Jill, 18:43)

3. Security ([24:08])

• Fully funded emergency fund (3-6 months), retirement and other savings goals on autopilot.
• Financial “acumen” and means present; sense of control.
• Focus can shift to mental and emotional growth (“mental wealth” – curiosity, resilience, creativity).
• Quote:
  “This is a really blossoming time.” (Jill, 26:03)
  “A rich mind sees possibilities, reframes challenges, and enables continuous learning.” (Jen quoting Bloom, 26:28)

4. Independence ([29:32])

• Have resources to cover expenses and make work/life choices without dependence on a paycheck.
• Not full retirement, but strong “nest egg.”
• Greater job flexibility or ability to weather job changes, caregiving needs, or pursue business/hobbies.
• Now can prioritize physical health ("physical wealth").
• Important Note: Especially significant for women, who are more likely to be caregivers and may need flexibility.
• Quote:
  “You could leave an unhealthy job to pursue another. You don’t have to be worried about a layoff or taking time to be a caregiver.” (Jen, 33:31)

5. Freedom ([35:40])

• Total financial autonomy—invested wealth generates enough passive income to live on.
• Pursue passions/interests without financial restraint.
• Classical “financial independence” or FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early).
• Maximum time wealth: spend time however you please (health permitting).
• Hosts note: This level is rare and takes decades—but striving for it is worthwhile.
• Quote:
  “Once you get to freedom, you want to be at freedom.” (Jen, 35:40)

4. Barriers & Mindset Blocks for Women

• “Ickiness” in Pursuit:
  [11:33] Jill and Jen dig into why women hesitate to pursue higher levels of financial or life wealth.

  • “It feels icky when it’s only attached to money... for what purpose? Why are we doing that?” (Jill, 11:49)

• Cultural/Social Pressures:
  [14:09] Fear of “outgrowing” social circles, feeling selfish, or striving for more than comfort.

• Permission to Pursue:
  [28:41] Both emphasize that it’s not selfish to pursue more, or to move ahead of where your social or family group has historically been.

5. Strategies and Practical Tips

• Progress is Stage-Based:
  Progression isn’t always about continuous income increases; sometimes it’s about reducing or managing expenses.
• Short-Term Sacrifices:
  Get creative: side hustles, investing “spurts,” or strategic drops in cost of living can catapult you to new levels.
• Networks Matter:
  Social wealth (building strong relationships) can help with job changes, mental health, and more.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Defining Your Own Wealth Journey:
  "We're not attaching numbers because we want to just attach it to what is available for me to focus on." (Jen, 14:09)

• On Social Wealth & Relationships:
  "There will never be a better time in your life to build relationships. Life will only get more complex." (Jen, 19:37)

• On The Power of Security:
  "You have a sense of control over your financial situation and the people around you." (Jill, 24:08)

• On Independence—Why It’s Vital for Women:
  “The average year people say they want to retire is 67, and I think the actual is like 62, 63. So you need to plan that you’re going to have to leave work at least a couple years earlier than you want.” (Jen, 33:31)

• On Holistic Approach:
  “If we want to have and collect all of these different forms of wealth, it is going to take some financial capital.” (Jill, 40:39)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------------| | 01:22 | Contentment vs. Potential—Key Host Question | | 06:53 | Introduction to Sahil Bloom’s Framework & Types | | 12:44 | Level 1: Survival | | 16:44 | Level 2: Stability | | 24:08 | Level 3: Security | | 29:32 | Level 4: Independence | | 35:40 | Level 5: Freedom | | 40:39 | Why Holistic Wealth Requires Financial Capital | | 44:34 | Bill of the Week Community Segment | | 48:11 | Lightning Round: Hosts Share Their Own Level | | 50:35 | Real-Life Examples: How the Hosts Got to Independence |

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Host Tone & Style

Friendly, encouraging, and candid. Jen and Jill blend actionable financial advice with relatable humor and empathy—especially in normalizing the discomfort or “ickiness” women feel when pursuing more than just “enough.” They use personal stories, challenge cultural narratives, and root for their listeners to reach their full holistic wealth potential.

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Summary Takeaways

• Wealth Is More Than Money: True wealth encompasses financial, social, time, mental, and physical components. You need to progress in finances to fully thrive holistically.
• Define Wealth on Your Own Terms: Avoid comparisons to net worth “standards”—measure progress by how life-enriching options open at each level.
• Women: Give Yourself Permission to Ascend: Don’t let social norms, guilt, or contentment keep you from aiming higher for the benefit of yourself and those you care for.
• Stage-Appropriate Focus: Each level allows for new opportunities—know what to focus on now, so you don’t get stuck.
• Keep Moving Forward: None of these levels is forever—there’s always growth ahead, and sometimes your social circles will need to evolve with you.

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“We can be wealthy in relationships, wealthy in physical health, mental health and financial health, but if we want to have and collect all of these different forms of wealth, it is going to take some financial capital.”
(Jill, 40:39)

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For more tools and community support, visit frugalfriendspodcast.com or subscribe to their channels.

Transcript

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[Host Introduction/Announcer]

Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast where you'll learn to save money, embrace simplicity, and live a richer life. Here are your hosts, Jen and Jill.

[Jen]

Welcome Frugal Friends. I'm Jen and I'm Jill and I want to ask you a question. Are contentment and gratitude the keys to living a rich life or can they hold us back from our full potential? So as someone who is not a six figure earner, this is a question that I contemplate a lot. Am I fulfilling my potential or have I stopped short to maintain sanity, relationships, societal, cultural norms? And it comes directly from talking about frugality so much and by proxy contentment and gratitude that that leads us away from over consumption.

[Jill]

I think in the personal finance space we talk a lot about saving, investing, building wealth, but we don't often talk about how to kind of move through these different levels of wealth. And there is something that can feel a little bit even icky about it. But not having these conversations I think can be really detrimental to us, especially women that we don't know how to we don't exactly know where we are or where we want to be going if we kind of don't have a foundational understanding of what what are these different levels? Provide to me what are the benefits of it?

[Jen]

Yeah. And I think it's easy to just focus on living on less because you can be very successful as a creator who talks about saving money. But I think that ignores the foundational layers that actually make wealth and generosity sustainable. And in the end we want to be people who are rich in a lot of places in our lives. But in order to do that we need fine financial security, we need financial capital that that comes in. And so in this episode we are walking through these five levels of wealth that most women are skipping or ignoring and, and kind of explaining why bypassing them or ignoring them. It doesn't just slow you down or limit you. It can cause long term harm not just for us, but for our children or whoever our loved ones are. And I think level five is probably the least talked about and one that we really want to hit home. But first, this episode is brought to you by pie. It is not easy nor simple. Why do people say that? Easy as pie. Simplest pie. That's wrong. If you've ever eaten pie.

[Jill]

Maybe that's what they mean.

[Jen]

Well then they need to clarify because if you've ever made an apple pie, you know that it is so complex. Any you have to like bake something with like marbles or something like stuff to keep the crust down. Pre bake, par bake, whatever that is. That's a, that's a word I don't want to know. But you know what is simple? Having a meal plan. They don't need to be complex, but it can feel like making a meal plan can get very complex. Like there's some par baking involved. But we've tried to make meal planning, meal prepping and overall grocery shopping a little easier by creating something we're calling the ultimate meal planner. In this spreadsheet with, with about 10 tabs you get everything you need to keep your meal planning and prepping organized. There's a favorite recipe tracker, pantry fridge and freezer trackers for inventory measurement conversion sheet so you don't have to google again how many teaspoons are in a tablespoon or what milliliters is to pounds. And our pride and joy the thousand meal ideas. There are 1,000 meal ideas. I can tell you specifically there's 250 chicken and turkey ideas, 250 beef and pork ideas, 250 grab bag lunch vegetarian ideas and then 250 breakfast ideas. So that's how it's broken down and math.

[Jill]

Four times two fifty equals a thousand.

[Jen]

Yeah Y so go check it out. It'[e-mail] meal planner or if you're watching on YouTube, head to the description. You can click the link there and there's a 30% off code.

[Jill]

I love, I love meal planning. I think everyone should do it.

[Jen]

So, so true.

[Jill]

So this is an interesting conversation that we're about to have. And there's a lot of different ideas across the Internet, depending on who you ask. There's anywhere from four to 10 different levels of wealth going to be defined in different ways. Some people are attaching net worth to it. And all of that is not necessarily necessary for the type of conversation that we want to have about what these levels actually can purchase for you or allow you to pursue. It's not so much about the number. And that's what we want to talk about.

[Jen]

Yeah. So we recognize that what we've been talking about for seven and a half years on Frugal Friends is that true wealth is holistic. And so we kind of wanted to take, but, but also recognizing that you cannot have all the things that you love in life. You know, you can have a lot of them, you can't have all of them without some kind of financial component. And so we are trying to marry this wealth of life with financial wealth. Where do they line up? Where, where are we being complacent or maybe undervaluing ourselves, which is limiting our financial growth and therefore hindering our, our life wealth for lack of a life richness. And then where can we know that we are at a good place financially and that we don't need to move on? So a lot of people will give these levels of wealth, you know, zero to a hundred thousand a year is this and 100 to 500 is this. And that is not what we're doing. We want to give like life giving gauges so that you can determine which level of wealth you're at and also be consistently pursuing bettering yourself. So we've used a book by Sahil Bloom and it's called the Five Types of Wealth. It's a transformative guide to design your dream life. And only one of these wealths is financial. And the, the issue is that, that that chapter is at the end of the book saying that all these other types of wealth are more important. But in reality you need that wealth first in order to pursue the other ones. And in media there are people who will go like money, money, money. And then there are people who go like, experiences, life, love, and ne' er the two shall meet. But in reality they need to Meet, they need to find a radical middle. And that is what we are going to attach to each of these levels of wealth is one of the levels Bloom talks about in his book. Because essentially as you ascend these levels of wealth, you open yourself up to experiencing more life and maybe you can. The way you can figure out you, you're ascending these financial ladders is by your capacity to pursue different things on the life wealth ladder.

[Jill]

So the other, the other ones, right, there's financial wealth, but there's also time wealth, social wealth, mental wealth, and physical wealth. And you know us, we love to take that holistic perspective to say they're all interconnected. And especially like you've just highlighted, you need financial wealth in order to have, have more of all of those other categories. And I think again, the concept of moving into higher levels of wealth can just sound icky to me. But I think that's why we're not attaching a monetary amount because that's just arbitrary. But to know what comes alongside each of these life stages, it's actually reminding me a little bit of. So my background is in mental health and as a licensed clinical social worker. And we talk about this when it comes to the diagnostic statistical manual, like love it or hate it. Right. It's kind of the guide for us to be able to put terms to the behavior, symptoms, experiences that, that a person's going to have. And for some individuals it's really helpful. They want to have that diagnosis because it can guide treatment and others don't really want to fully embrace the diagnosis. Right. Like it doesn't define me. And I think both can be true. And I'm approaching this a little bit in that way that it doesn't have to be a total definition of somebody, but they can be terms that help us to kind of know where are we at, what are we experiencing, what are some of the symptoms of this and what's the quote unquote treatment plan going forward? What do we want to do about this to, to, to be able to live within this reality well. Or pursue different kind of experiences. So that's my little kind of.

[Jen]

Tell me about the ickiness. What is icky? Because I feel that too. Yeah. And I think that's part of the sticking point that keeps especially women like down from reaching our full potentials.

[Jill]

I think it's when it feels as though it's only attached to money. Like if we were just be having a conversation of how to go from $100,000 to $200,000, it's not attached to anything. And so I think that's what feels like it feels if I were to dig deeper, for what purpose? Why are we doing that?

[Jen]

Arbitrary number.

[Jill]

And it's also kind of setting this goal of shoulds for others that you should be. And I think I always struggle to tell other people what their lives should be looking like and ascending the ladder because I think for some of us it is okay to be where we're at. We found a livable thing, but that's that push and pull of the contentment without complacency. So it is a good conversation to have, but there's uncomfortability in it.

[Jen]

Yeah. So let's get uncomfortable with our first level. And so I've just taken from other videos their kind of wealth level names. So the first one is survival, which at this level you're basically, you're focused on meeting immediate needs like food and shelter and managing finances is often reactive and focused on staying afloat. And so at this level you can only focus on financial wealth. You know, we, we want to make a point that there none of these like life wealth levels are mutually exclusive to their levels of wealth. But there is a point at certain financial levels of wealth that opens you up to focus on one more than another. And so we'll talk about the focus.

[Jill]

And I think too the. One of the reasons we're not attaching an exact number to this is because I think there could be people who have enough money to be able to cover more than just survival needs could find themselves feeling as though they're in this survival state and kind of only focusing on these bare minimum. Of course it can be people who just are low income earning and, and so this is the state that we're in. But we could find ourselves here for a variety of reasons.

[Jen]

I think that's an important point because we can think that we're at a lower level than we actually are and that can hold us back too. And so I think having these clearly defined, so you're like, oh, maybe I'm not at survival, maybe I am a little bit. And like, does that feel icky? Because these cultural and societal norms, if you're around a bunch of people who are at survival level, or at least think they are, or say that they are, you naturally will want to be too, because you don't want to buck against that because that makes you an outsider. And so it can feel uncomfortable to maybe be ahead of the people around you. But I think that's another reason why we're not Attaching numbers to this because we want to just attach it to what is available for me to focus on. And the more wealth we attain, the more generous we can be as well, which is another great benefit.

[Jill]

Yeah. So if you're just in survival, there's probably not going to be as much capacity to be focused on mental wealth, social wealth, time wealth. If most of the focus is on I just need to get food, I need to keep this roof over my head, I'm really living paycheck, paycheck to paycheck, and it's not our hope that anybody would be here. I think usually when we find ourselves in survival, it's extremely uncomfortable, it lacks sustainability, and we want to find ourselves in a different place.

[Jen]

And maybe this can be a little freeing. If you do find yourself in survival and you're seeing all these things on social media that tell you you need to be focused on your weight, you need to be focused on your mental health, you need to be like, bucking the nine to five because entrepreneurship is where it's at. Like, forget all of it and just focus on this one thing, like earning enough to move to the next level of wealth. Honestly, I hate the people that are like the buck tonight. The nine to five. Like nine to fives are great.

[Jill]

And that's what most of us, that's.

[Jen]

What most, most millionaires are. Millionaires that, because they had a 9 to 5 and they have, you know, like, that's just the fact the 9 to 5 can.

[Jill]

Is what creates the ability for some time wealth.

[Jen]

You know, like entrepreneurship creates more multimillionaires and billionaires. Yes. But when we're looking at millionaires, which is what most of us, you know, strive to become, that's the nine to five, baby. So let's focus. You just focus on this one simple thing until we get to the next.

[Jill]

Level, which is stability. So to define what this level looks and feels like, this is where basic needs are, are consistently being met. There is a degree of predictability in your financial life. So savings and basic budgeting are on autopilot, but there's still a lack of a financial cushion for any unexpected events. So you might have your starter emergency fund at this stage and you may be in a debt payoff or saving to fully fund an emergency fund, but in general, you kind of got the money that you need month to months.

[Jen]

Yeah, you, you wouldn't move on to the next level of wealth until you have your fully funded emergency fund and maybe like most of your debt paid off or at a manageable rate where you're like, okay, I'm no longer at a. You know, you paid off all your credit card debt and you're not really worried about your, your mortgage or your student loan debt. So.

[Jill]

But a big financial cr. Like, like an unexpected large expense could, could feel really derailing in this.

[Jen]

Yes. Yeah.

[Jill]

At this point in life.

[Jen]

Yeah. So this being here, so, you know, we've got our finances. This is kind of like I picture me during our debt payoff journey, for sure. This is, this is where we were at in stability. We had the stability in order to focus on the debt payoff. So this really focuses you up to that next one I think we could focus on is social wealth. So like strengthening your inner circle, your communities, even your earned social position, which that's just good for increasing financial wealth, having a really strong network, strong mentorship, potentially mentoring. Like all of that is super important and can be done for free. Yeah.

[Jill]

And this is, I mean, this is Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So too, which we also talk about in the book, that once our basic needs are accounted for, that we are able to move up to some of our higher needs of love and belonging and esteem and self actualization. And so that's kind of what we're saying here, that when we know, yeah, the electric bill is going to be covered. I am working towards building that emergency fund. It frees me up to be able to say, how can I invest in my friendships? What do I want to do with maybe a little bit of time margin in my life? How can I care for myself mentally and emotionally and to be able to do those things at this stage. Like again, we don't only have to be focused on what can I be doing to build wealth and get to another number, but being able to embrace what this stage is allowing for, for personal growth.

[Jen]

Yeah, I remember. So this was before I had kids and had a lot of free time and was not spending a lot because we were paying off debt. And so it was just a really sweet time of inviting people over to my house and filtering out the people who just wanted me to be there so they could justify doing something out versus really wanted to spend time with me. There will never be a better time in your life to build relationships. Life will only get more complex. Life will only get busier the older and older we get that we always put off to be like, I'll have more time, you know, later.

[Jill]

I mean, when I'm 80, I do anticipate having a ton of free time. So true to Be fair.

[Jen]

Who are you gonna hang out with when you're 80?

[Jill]

All my ladies. You, hopefully.

[Jen]

Right. The people who you've spent time investing. Yeah. Right now. So, like, this is it. Don't put this off. There is a really a reason relationships are just above foundational basic needs. On the hierarchy of needs. Like, we need each other. And there's a. That's the reason this is called Frugal Friends podcast. Like, we need each other like just as much as we need to be like conscious consumers. Yeah.

[Jill]

Yeah. I need you so good.

[Jen]

So, yeah.

[Jill]

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[Jen]

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[Jill]

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[Jen]

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[Jill]

Quince.comfrugal this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. We can get caught up taking life advice from the weirdest places like social media or even reality tv. They can sound so compelling. But it's probably not the best move to be taking direction from parasocial relationships.

[Jen]

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[Jill]

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[Jen]

Find the one with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com frugal that's betterhelp.com frugal so next we go, and this may be a place that may feel comfortable to stay. Now that all of your basic needs are met. You've got a little savings and sometimes it's hard to get that three to six months saved. It's like always one of those things where you're like, you save it and then something comes up and you spend it and it's one of those back and forth things and there needs to be like a deeper why in order to get over that. And there just needs to be some natural barriers like keeping that in a high yield savings account that you don't look at that's just auto saved every month until it hits its target goal. Right? But there also needs to be some like deeper incentive for getting to the next level of wealth. And that next level of wealth is security.

[Jill]

So when you're here, you have most likely a fully funded three to six month emergency fund. You've got a clear plan mapped out for your future. You kind of really are understanding your finances at this point. You're now putting sinking funds and retirement savings on autopilot. So you have not just the financial acumen to do this, but also the means to be able to do this. And this does not mean that you are so uber rich and you're making so much money. It's that you've discovered, discovered potentially how to do this with what you're earning potentially, you've figured out ways to earn more, you've negotiated that pay increase, you've pursued that different career, that kind of a thing. But you have a sense of control over your financial situation and the people around you. A lot of times this can come with just safety, right? When, when you're experiencing security financially, a lot of times you can also experience security more and more. So relationally and I think this is somewhat attached to having that confidence and knowledge with your money. And being able to do this builds confidence in other areas, right? It's all attached. And so as you understand yourself and your money to the point where you've been able to accomplish these things, you can understand yourself, your mental health, emotional health, relational needs even better as well. And you understand what's life giving, what's not, who you want to be around, what depletes you, what's Actually going to meet the need and what's, What's a fake and you can push off to the side. And so with that, you're, You're. You might be experiencing more security in relationships with others. Um, your mental health might have experienced that, that cultivation of curiosity and emotional intelligence. So this is like, this is a really, like, blossoming time.

[Jen]

I think this is a good, like. So this one and the next one are places where we'll spend, I think, a lot of time in our 30s, maybe.

[Jill]

I was gonna say this feels very much like your 30s and 40s. And you hear so many people say, like, these have been the best years. Like, sometimes you can mourn the 20s being over, and then you remember, like, I just. That was just.

[Jen]

Yeah, so. So being here then, like Jill said, can open you up to focus more on your mental wealth. This is a great time to. Now that you've kind of delved into relationships and you might be seeing how you act in certain relationships, you can now invest in your mental health and your mental wealth. So this is not just like what I think we would normally think of mental health there. He definitely says mental wealth for a reason. So this is like cultivating curiosity, which we talk about all the time here on the podcast, about how one of the benefits of frugality is giving barriers with which to get creative and cultivate curiosity, emotional intelligence, resilience, and positive mindset. And so Bloom says a rich mind sees possibilities, reframes challenges, and enables continuous learning and growth. And those are all things that are super important to building wealth. To go, like getting promotions in your job, to earning more and building stronger relationships. If you want to build deep, lifelong relationships, you need, you know, to reframe challenges. You need emotional intelligence and all that.

[Jill]

This is a great place, right? Being at a place of security is excellent. And I think, particularly on this topic of this episode of, you know, where women can get stuck, if we're not looking at this, this can just feel really good. And we could stay here, not even aware that there's actually more that we could be pursuing. And that's not to say that you need to get to each of these stages immediately. What we're describing takes decades, and most people are not going to get to that fifth place, if ever. But towards the end of life, for the majority of us, this takes time to build and discover how to. How to expand and grow in this way.

[Jen]

But it doesn't mean that we shouldn't pursue it or that we don't deserve to pursue it or that we are not capable of attaining it.

[Jill]

Yeah. Or that we shouldn't know that there is more to pursue again or feel.

[Jen]

Selfish for wanting to pursue it. Or like we're going to be seen as one of these skeezy cheese balls on the Internet for trying to, you know, be more wealthy. Like.

[Jill]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen]

Or to be judged by our social circles who are not embracing these wealth levels and want to stay at, you know, just stability.

[Jill]

Uhhuh. Yeah, yeah. So security is a great place to be. We can be here for a while. We can utilize what it affords to us to be able grow these other areas of wealth that aren't just financial. But know that there is a fourth level here and it's called independence.

[Jen]

Ooh, yes.

[Jill]

I kind of want to spell it, but I won't. You know how it's spelled? So in when you are experiencing independence within your financial landscape, this is when you have the resources to cover living expenses and make choices about work and lifestyle without being solely dependent on a paycheck. So you've got a solid nest egg. Probably isn't going to cover your entire retirement. Like you're not, you're not retired yet, but you've, you've been focusing on retirement for a bit of time. You've had it on autopilot. It has built to a great point where compound interest is doing its thing. And, and this is also a point where you have that flexibility where if you are in a dead end job or a job that is burning you out, you could have the ability to make a different choice, even be able to take off for a bit of time to pursue something else, to build another type of business, whatever it may be. Some of that job flexibility. And again, I want to highlight, yes, this does mean that there's access to some financial means, but it, it doesn't mean that you're a millionaire at this point. Like you and I have had job flexibility. Neither one of us. Six figures.

[Jen]

Right.

[Jill]

So a lot of this does have to do with other decisions and choices that have been made and what we choose to spend on. So just know that like even reaching this stage, while it sounds super lofty, it's, it isn't incredibly unattainable. You don't have to in the 1% to experience.

[Jen]

Absolutely not. This is, this is, these are all attainable because they're not attached to a certain level of number. Right. So they're all attainable. But so this one, if you're familiar with the fire movement, there's like 38 types of Phi now at this point.

[Jill]

Because so many holes have been poked right in the fire movement that they're like, well, then we'll just come up with another name for it.

[Jen]

Yeah, but we still don't want to sacrifice the community. So it'll just be a different type of phi, which I love.

[Jill]

Yeah. This one, a lot of friends in five.

[Jen]

This one I think would be kind of like barista fy, which is, I have enough money, it won't retire me, but I can take a major pay cut. Still got to get paid. I could take a major pay cut to do something I love, or I can go down to part time to pursue hobbies I love for a period of time because I've built a solid nest egg. It's. There's 38 different types of fine now. So correct me in the comments if I'm wrong. Yeah, but that's kind of where this is. You could leave an unhealthy job to pursue another. You don't have to be worried about a layoff or taking time to be a caregiver. That is super underrated because so many women will have to leave their jobs early to become caregivers. The average, and I'm not sure if it's woman or man, but the average year people say they want to retire is 67. And I think the average retirement age is like 62, 63. So you need to plan that you're going to have to leave work at least a couple years earlier than you plan or want. And so that's why reaching this level is so important, because women are predominantly caregivers in their family and we suffer financially because of it, especially with Social Security being your highest level of income for, you know, the certain top years of your working, all that. And just like if an unhealthy job may not be unhealthy when you're younger, but you get to a certain age and it does become an unhealthy environment. Maybe everybody in the office is younger. Maybe a new CEO comes in and has different ideas. So just because it's good now and you don't foresee it changing in the future, don't rely on it to not change in the future. It's so important that we get to this level and getting back to our, our life wealth levels. This one I think can allow us more focus on our physical health. So this includes movement, nutrition, sleep, preventative care. This is also when we get to the age where we need to start focusing. We may not have wanted to, but we inevitably will have to so let's just plan for it.

[Jill]

All these influencers start going, our backs start going. 30s, early 40s are the ones out here, just like pedaling the supplements.

[Jen]

Right.

[Jill]

And so we're not here for that.

[Jen]

But this, this will inevitably become the place where you have to, to put some more time into your physical health. Whether you have the financial, like wealth to do it or not, you're going to have to. So why don't we keep pursuing more so that when that time does come, we have the capacity to do it and not be stressed about it?

[Jill]

Yeah. And again, you probably are here at midpoint to slightly past midpoint of life. And so you've got kids are at least sleeping through the night if they're.

[Jen]

Not out of the house.

[Jill]

So you, you've got the ability to, to focus for a lot of different reasons on different things can create some more time, wealth for you. And this is a great place to be for a long time. This, this is super, super sustainable. We love to be independent, but again, you don't have to be here for forever. You don't have to be barista fire. You could just be absolutely, I don't need to be working anymore. And that is freedom. Once you get to freedom, you want.

[Jen]

To be at freedom, like around your 60s, definitely your 70s, because then you ain't moving so fast anymore as fast as you used to be. And you're like, actually, freedom sounded nice in my 30s and 40s, and now I need it. So this level represents a high degree of financial autonomy where wealth generates income to cover all expenses and then you can pursue your passions and interests without financial restraints. This is that traditional fire, but it doesn't have to be early. It's just you have invested enough in your retirement accounts where the growth each year on those accounts is all you need to spend for the year. So you're basically not touching your nest egg and you're just living on that stuff. And some years might be a little worse and you might have to dip into that nest egg. But that's why we go for that goal is so that, you know, we have, we don't necessarily need to touch the nest egg, but if we do, that's good.

[Jill]

Personally, I'm not trying to have this stage come too quickly for me, I mean, it'd be fine if I didn't have to work. Sure, I, I'll take that. But I am gonna keep setting my hands to something. And that's the number one hole that people poke in fire that people who are retiring in their 30s or 40s in the traditional sense are often reenter the workforce in some way, shape or form or they're selling some product or they're building some business like it.

[Jen]

They are starting personal finance podcast.

[Jill]

Yeah. Something not us, something has happened, but.

[Jen]

Most of them are.

[Jill]

Yeah. So I think that having this in our sights is what we want, but it doesn't mean that we've got to break our backs to get to freedom financially. It's not going to be super realistic for most of us. Even if we get there, we're still going to want to do something that probably could earn us money. So why break our backs to get there? And might as well just pursue the type of work that you enjoy that's going to make you money. But of course, when we do get here, time, wealth is what we have. We don't have to be working. All of the money is set aside. We are living off of the interest made on our money. And so whatever we want to do with our time, assuming that we have the health to be able to pursue some of these activities. So it's also why it's important to have some of that margin financially earlier on in our lives to be doing some of this preventative care so that by the time we get to this point of freedom, we are able to then be able to be the caregivers that we need to be or we're able to do some of the things that we had always hoped for in retirement, that we're able to pursue some of our hobbies and just be the awesome older person that we want to be.

[Jen]

Oh, I want to be such a cool old person.

[Jill]

I'll probably just be crotchety, but I want to be cool, to be cool.

[Jen]

I want to be the old person that all the young people want to hang out with or just think they want to hang out with. I want to be like viewed as that. That is what I want. But I, I think that we are. We listen to like all these people on the Internet talk about one thing, right? Everyone's got their niche. So you've got your financial niche, you got your wellness, you know, your mental health people, you've got your fitness people, you've got your entrepreneurs over here saying retire in your 30s and have the time off. And in reality, none of them are right. It's a, a radical middle of every, of everything that they're saying. But I think once we break it down into levels, it can, it can take so much pressure off the need to pursue everything at once or to Feel like we're failing because we're not successful in any of them. If we can just using finances as a lens on how much to be investing in each of these levels. And when we're confused about like, okay, what should I be focusing on? Just using these as a gauge to kind of help simplify but still move us forward in the hopes of. I do want to pursue more physical wellness. I want to have that capacity when the time comes. I do want to be able to pursue more time wealth when that time comes. Continually being motivated to move forward and realize our full potential.

[Jill]

I do want to reemphasize that wealth is holistic, that we can be wealthy in relationships, wealthy in physical health, mental health and financial health, but that if we want to have and collect all of these different forms of wealth, it is going to take some financial capital. And so that's where we do want to encourage women especially to be looking for the ways to earn more so that you have the ability to pursue your own investment and care for yourself in all of these other areas. And that's what makes this an important conversation and I think a positive, beneficial thing thing to pursue not just for the sake of a number in a bank account, but for what it buys us. It buys us time. It buys us the ability to be with our friends. It buys us the ability to care for ourselves in the way that we need to be. So that's what we are mostly pursuing here and what we want to be a resource for. In providing you with the tools to be able to reach some of these goals, maybe sooner than you would have anticipated to find yourself at a point of security or independence, even though you might not consider yourself a super high income earner. I think a lot of the tenets that we teach and explain here is what allows us to be able to find ourselves in a bracket that we might associate with a certain number, but doesn't have to be because of the decisions that we make and how confident and wise we can be with our money decisions.

[Jen]

Yeah. And I hope this also encourages you in the ways that we ascend these levels. So typically you just think, oh, I just have to earn more and more and more. And yeah, that is a part of it. You definitely want to be increasing your income, negotiating your salary, moving jobs if you're, you know, in a dead end one. Right. That that's a part of it. But sometimes it's going to come down to, okay, I have the short term goal of saving an emergency fund. So I'm just going to Get a side hustle and do that until I finish that. And. And I keep going. Because we value these jobs that are not traditionally hiring, too. Like, we love our librarians. We love our teachers. We love all. You know, earning as much as possible every year is not the ultimate goal. The goal is to. Is what we've been saying the whole episode. So sometimes it just means doing something to save more or decreasing something, you know, to save a little extra so that you can meet an investing goal on time. So. So think about it creatively. Get creative with how you are achieving, reaching each of these levels of wealth and know that none of them are forever. None of them should be forever. We're always trying to move forward to that holistic wealth and not be afraid of maybe ascending faster than the people around us and recognizing that. And it's where the social wealth comes in, is that we sometimes need to evolve in our social network, too. People who are a little more gracious with where we're headed versus stuck in where we've been.

[Jill]

Do you know what else? We're super creative with, both us and.

[Jen]

Our listeners, but it's always stuck in where we started.

[Jill]

The bill of the week.

[Host Introduction/Announcer]

That's right. It's time for. For the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name is William. Maybe you paid off your mortgage. Maybe your car died and you're happy to not have to pay that bill anymore. Duck bills. Buffalo Bills.

[Jen]

Bill Clinton.

[Host Introduction/Announcer]

This is the bill of the week.

[Riley]

Jen and Jill, I have some news for you. This is Riley, the one whose daughter ate a screw and the tree crashed into the yard and all the fish died. So most recently, we had a flood in the house, and I was like, you know what? This is kind of ridiculous at this point, and I'm kind of funny, so I'm gonna try this whole TikTok thing out. And so I got on TikTok just a couple months ago, and I have almost 20,000 followers, and I'm in the creator fund, and I just checked it this morning, and I have made almost $700 in the last two weeks. So that will be going towards paying.

[Jill]

The bill for the fl.

[Riley]

Our upstairs bathroom. So if anyone is considering TikTok, I would recommend that you just go for it, because you never know. All right, bye.

[Jill]

This is fun. And, Riley, tell us who you are on TikTok.

[Jen]

Riley, you need to stop, but keep going.

[Jill]

I'm so sorry for what's happening to you.

[Jen]

All these things need to stop happening to you.

[Jill]

All the fish died and then I flooded. But, but, but she is making lemonade out of lemons out here saying, I'm going to tell other people about all of my woes and making money. I don't think that that's a super realistic experience, but you just are extra funny.

[Jen]

If you've got stories to tell and you tell them well, then that is the place to be for sure.

[Jill]

$700 in two weeks is not bad.

[Jen]

No. We started a TikTok for the podcast and the book talkers came for us. But I'm, but we're not mad about it because we just, we do want book talkers to buy fewer books and to rent more of them from the library or on Kindle. Okay.

[Jill]

Okay.

[Jen]

But doesn't mean you don't have. You can't buy any books you can have. You can still buy your special editions that you really love. We'll keep those from. You know, I would never.

[Jill]

That's just a special note for which is apparently now like our new. Our new like side segment Nemesis. Our little our side conversations with book talk community.

[Jen]

Are you okay? Are you okay? Book talk.

[Jill]

So well, thanks. Thanks, Riley, for your bill. And if you all are listening, have a bill that you want to submit. If it's, if it's about a book talk. If you're, if you're out here, book talk bills and you want to come at us in the bill of the week. I mean, go for it.

[Jen]

Please come.

[Jill]

Or if you started at TikTok and you made money off of it or you flooded and now you're going to be able to pay for it because of your income from being funny, or your name is Bill. Leave it for [e-mail] Bill.

[Jen]

And Doug.

[Host Introduction/Announcer]

Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug Limu.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Is that guy with the binoculars watching us?

[Host Introduction/Announcer]

Cut the camera.

[Jen]

They see us. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty. Liberty.

[Jill]

Liberty. Liberty Savings.

[Jen]

Very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.

[Jill]

And now it's time for lightning round.

[Jen]

Jill, you answered this question for me. Wow. It's.

[Jill]

We both said the same thing.

[Jen]

Yeah. Did I write that or did you write that?

[Jill]

You wrote it.

[Jen]

Oh. Time's a construct. Okay. What level are you at? What level of wealth are you at right now? And we're both at independence.

[Jill]

I wrote Transcendence. No, I didn't. That'd be funny.

[Jen]

What is it?

[Jill]

We don't know. It's outside of the levels.

[Jen]

This is the pyramid. And I'm over here. Well, you get a pyramid scheme.

[Jill]

You can't attach a number to me.

[Jen]

And you're all in the pyramid scheme.

[Jill]

Yeah. I was at security like a couple months ago.

[Jen]

Yeah. Amen. Sell your house.

[Jill]

And then we sold our house. And now I'm independent from home ownership. But it actually did give us a nice nest egg because we did not roll it into. It is invested for retirement. And so here we are. That can happen too. You can make those types of decisions. It's not. Might not be for everybody. Don't come at me.

[Jen]

Do come at me.

[Jill]

But I mean, come at me because I do. I stand by this. This opinion.

[Jen]

Yeah. If you've decided to be a renter after being a homeowner, let us know. It's a good story. Mine is an independence. I own two homes and rent out two of them because we rent out the back of our home and we could not afford to not do that.

[Jill]

But what helped you to get to independent? So for me, it was selling my home. Okay, what did it for you?

[Jen]

For me, it was in the time after paying off our debt and having our first child, we invested for those three years hyper aggressively. And even after having Kai, we were still. So maybe for like four or five years. In our late 20s, early 30s, we invested aggressively, maxing out 401ks, Roth IRAs, investing in taxable brokerage.

[Jill]

And what were the types of jobs that you and Travis held at the time? Because I just, I. I'm not. I just feel like it's important for people to know, like, who this is possible for.

[Jen]

I was freelance writing for financial websites and I did about, at my height, I think I did 80,000 a year. I've never broken six figures, like, of income. That just came to me. And then Travis was working at an airline.

[Jill]

He's an airline mechanic.

[Jen]

He's an aircraft mechanic. Yeah. And airlines pay the most. But he had to work nights. So he only did that for two years.

[Jill]

Yeah. So it sounds like you rolled over the tenants and things that you had learned from debt payoff into investing. And. And yet you're not still investing that aggressively. You just really focused on it for that period of time while you could.

[Jen]

Because.

[Jill]

And it's paying off now.

[Jen]

Because we knew time in the market is more important than timing the market.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

So we knew investing in our 20s as much as we could would pay off dividends versus waiting or just investing a little bit throughout the rest of our lives. So we were front loading our investing while we still had the flexibility to do so. It always had an end date which was having kids.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

So we talk a lot about what.

[Jill]

To be able to do in order to kind of reach the things that we're talking about in order to get to independence. So certainly keep watching more of these videos to learn those tips and but also this one on what not to do to be frugal so that you can know what to do.

[Jen]

Yeah. Don't focus on the wrong things like in that video.

[Jill]

Well, thank you all so, so much for listening and for being here with us. We don't take it lightly that you've chosen to give us some of your time wealth and to spend it here.

[Jen]

With us tying it all back in.

[Jill]

We hope that by being here we can help you gain even more wealth in all of these different areas of your personhood. And one of the things we love the most is your reviews of our book Buy what yout Love Without Going Broke. Like this one from Patty S. It's five stars. She says Chapter nine is my fave. Mine too.

[Jen]

Patty. Yes, that is Jill's favorite.

[Jill]

I love this book. I think the information and ideas are delivered in a very entertaining and casual way that is appealing. And chapter nine was my favorite and very validating that what I am doing is on the right track for my happiness. I enjoy the writers podcast as well and YouTube channel. Here we are. And newsletter. So much free content. The book's not free so that you could get it at the library.

[Jen]

You can ascend the ladders of wealth faster from all the free knowledge.

[Jill]

And if we're helping you or just making you laugh, please leave us a Review. Subscribe on YouTube.

[Jen]

Yes, please subscribe on YouTube. Every subscription helps. Even if you don't listen over there, you don't have to. Just a subscription. Hit that subscribe button. It'll help. There's a lot of people that watch the videos on YouTube but aren't subscribed. So if you could just hit that button, that would be so helpful and we will see you wherever you're listening or watching next time.

[Jill]

Bye.

[Jen]

Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni.

[Jill]

Did the tea help?

[Jen]

It's cold now. I drink like half of it.

[Jill]

They call that iced tea.

[Jen]

It's got no ice in it. It's just got little particles of loose tea.

[Jill]

Yeah, thankfully. I don't mind when it gets lukewarm.

[Jen]

It's not bad. I'm Just not a tea girl. I like coffee. All these. We were talking about how all these energy drinks are getting so popular, but I prefer getting my caffeine the old fashioned way through. Copious amounts of coffee. Hot, iced, lukewarm. When it. When the ice melts.

[Jill]

Yeah. I don't think I've really ever had an energy drink. Espresso, fried Red Bull. Once, like, tried a sip of it, but otherwise, same. It's just not for me because I.

[Jen]

Don'T want to have too much caffeine in the day because it doesn't affect me. I don't. I would, because caffeine doesn't really affect me. I could just. I, in, you know, previous iterations of myself would just drink it all day and then I would become, like, ill. Right. But not awake. Just.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

I'm living a normal life, but I'm shaking. Right. So, like, I can't tell. I don't get super hyperactive where I'm like, oh, the coffee kicked in. I just enjoy the taste.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And I don't want to have too much caffeine. So there would be no way I would drink an energy drink.

[Jill]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, why? What for?

[Jen]

Right.

[Jill]

My toxic trait is that I have enough energy, which is. I don't know. I guess I'm just like a little. Like a little middle schooler, you know?

[Jen]

Yeah. Like, I don't.

[Jill]

I don't need coffee. I shouldn't have coffee. I don't need an energy drink. I just wake up ready to go.

[Jen]

That's why I never imbibed in illegal substances in high school. I was like, I am so chill.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

This is either gonna do nothing for me or make me really anxious.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

So, like, I'm just gonna drink coffee.

[Jill]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And that does nothing for me either. So you know what? I don't know what's going on with my body.

[Jill]

Do you hope it does something for you or you're just. You truly are. Like, some days, like, how this tastes.

[Jen]

Is truly a taste thing, but some days I am like, this needs to save me because I was up half the night.

[Jill]

Placebo works. That's the thing you can say, this is energizing me and let it energize.

[Jen]

I let you energize me. That's what energizes me, is you.

[Jill]

I am asking one of my friends to help me learn how to exercise at the gym. And she sent me this questionnaire and they're on a scale of 1 to 10. One of the questions was, what are your. What's Your like, energy levels. And I'm like, I might put a 10, but like, I couldn't. I'm like, I know I can't put a 10. Like, I'm not. And you're not answering these things compared to other people. But it still felt like, no. I know people who are far more energetic than I am. But I did put a nine because I'm like, yeah, no, I, I buzz around. Yeah, I'm a little buzzer.

[Jen]

You, you consistently get full nights of sleep.

[Jill]

So I can 9 is that might be it?

[Jen]

Yeah. If you did it, I think you'd be closer to a seven.

[Jill]

But yeah, I don't always sleep fantastic. But it doesn't seem to really affect me during the day. And Eric's just like, I mean, he'll, he'll sit at night like he's got energy, but he's just like, are you gonna stop? Like, what are. What are you just gonna, like, stop?

[Jen]

Oh, I get in bed. I get in bed, I'm like, oh. I have never been excited to do anything else more than sleep. I've there nothing has excited me more in my life. Not even publishing a book or having a baby.

[Jill]

Whereas lately, sometimes I'm like, sure, I'll go to bed.

[Jen]

Yeah, that's my, that's my children. That's what my children say. Yeah. Like, I don't want to sleep. It's so boring.

[Jill]

Yeah, right. I am like your toddler.

[Jen]

Yeah, my six year old too. Both of them. So fun for me.