← Full Measure After Hours
Full Measure After Hours
After Hours: Back to Work or Out of Work Back to Work or Out of Work
00:21:17
Loading summary
Transcript48 lines
- [00:00]
Narrator
This new year, why not let Audible expand your life by listening? Explore over 1 million audiobooks, podcasts and exclusive Audible originals that'll inspire and motivate you. Tap into your well being with advice and insight from leading professionals and experts on better health, relationships, career, finance, investing, and more. Maybe you want to kick a bad habit or start a good one. If you're interested in learning how to master your emotions and hearing scientifically backed advice for using your emotions as a tool, may I suggest Shift by psychologist and bestseller author Dr. Ethan Cross. Trust me, listening on Audible can help you reach the goals you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com wondery that's audible.com wondery.
- [00:54]
Cheryl Atkison
Hi everybody. Cheryl Akison here. Welcome to another edition of Full Measure After Hours. Today we examine the Trump administration pledge to fire federal workers who refuse to come back into the office. When President Trump took office for a second term, there were somewhere in the neighborhood of about 2.3 million civilian federal employees. That's about the size of the population of New Mexico. Never before have they as a group been so shaken up than under this second Trump administration under the direction of the Department of Government Efficiency, or doge. They've been told the party's over, but some insist there never was a party to begin with and that the downsizing is going to have disastrous results. In today's podcast, we will hear a view from Randy Irwin, president of the National Federation of Federal Employees. This is a union representing about 110,000 federal workers nationwide. He is obviously against the idea of downsizing the federal workforce. And I will say up front, some of the facts and numbers that he gives in the interview are disputed by the other side. But here is his take on President Trump's back to work orders and mass firings.
- [02:17]
Randy Irwin
Covid the thing that sparked it, and then people just never came back to work in as great a numbers.
- [02:23]
Expert Speaker
I think that's not the start of the story. The start of the story is when people started having access to laptops and Internet at home. And then after 9 11, telework became a very high priority of the Bush administration, a Republican, so that in case of some national emergency, we could still continue government operations. And that kind of got the ball rolling for telework in the federal government. Certainly, you know, that continued through a couple administrations. We had the COVID pandemic, which was really, really tested our ability to have telework, you know, virtually overnight, the federal workforce was sent home. But it was really a success story because our government continued to operate. There were a few bumps in the road, but overall the continuity of our government continued and vital services to the American people got delivered.
- [03:18]
Randy Irwin
Is it true that after Covid, the number or proportion of workers doing telework increased?
- [03:24]
Expert Speaker
Oh, absolutely, yeah. There was a soft ending to Covid and you know, it varied quite a bit by location. But what's important, the people need to know that they have been misled about the problem of telework in the federal government because they have been said that it was said by Trump, said by members of Congress that only 6% of federal workers are coming to work. That's nonsense. 54% of federal workers are not even eligible for Telework, which means 100% of their time is spent at the federal work site. There's 37% of the federal workforce, a minority of the federal workforce, that both has a federal work site and is eligible for telework. And in that little subset, they're spending 61% of their time at the federal work site. And overall there's less telework in the federal government than in the private sector. So it is very much a made up problem that federal workers aren't coming to work. That's nonsense.
- [04:27]
Randy Irwin
We'll ask them. But do you know where the 6% figure comes from that they're citing?
- [04:31]
Expert Speaker
I do not.
- [04:34]
Randy Irwin
Do you think the heart of some of this is jealousy? People in private industry that maybe aren't allowed to work at home or imagine that federal workers aren't doing as much work when they're at home just don't like that idea.
- [04:48]
Expert Speaker
It's a shame that it's a political issue. I think anytime, you know, there's a lot of talk of how big is government? And that's legitimate debate. How big should our government be? How much should we be spending on these services? There's nothing wrong with that. But you know, for the folks that want less government, less spending, lower taxes also, right. They it turns into just a criticism of federal employees. No matter what, they will not say anything good about federal workers no matter how good a service they provide to people or at good value. And so, you know, any little thing that they can harp onto that makes federal employees seem lazy or what have you, those stories have legs. And so people get the wrong idea. But there are very much people perpetuating these falsehoods to make federal employees, employees seem lazy when overall that is not the truth. They're dedicated workers.
- [05:47]
Randy Irwin
As more federal workers have Worked at home. I know there was no model for this.
- [05:52]
Expert Speaker
Sure.
- [05:52]
Randy Irwin
But we haven't seen a correlated amount of sort of shrinking of real estate, for example, because a lot of there are stats that show office buildings, federal and private real estate is more empty now, spaces are more empty. Certainly where I work that's the case. There hasn't been a commiserate downsizing of the space, which could save money.
- [06:12]
Expert Speaker
Sure.
- [06:13]
Randy Irwin
What are your thoughts about that?
- [06:14]
Expert Speaker
Well, it's funny that people want to bring federal workers back to the work site to save money because that does the exact opposite because it costs money to put somebody in a cubicle and turn on those lights and turn on the air conditioning and everything like that. So what really should have happened is when we learned that so many federal workers could telework effectively, there should have been a reregulation of how much office, you know, federal office space is used. They should downsize those offices and actually save the American taxpayer money while allowing only those who can effectively telework, allowing them to continue.
- [06:50]
Randy Irwin
That's a good point. I think all of us know people who can be effective working at home and we all probably know people who couldn't be right. And we wonder how the federal government discriminates or figures out, are they getting the best and the most of a worker who's not coming into the office regularly?
- [07:07]
Expert Speaker
Absolutely. The American taxpayer deserve to get the services that they're paying for. But again, when they put out statistics like only 6% of the federal workforce is coming to work, it seems like, you know, virtually nobody's coming to work. But 81% of federal work days are spent in the office overall, 81%. So really, those who are not effective at telework have come back into the office, by and large. For those who are more efficient at telework, they're continuing to telework. But what are they doing now? They're saying in the name of efficiency, we're going to say stop being efficient at home, get in your car, drive in here and be less efficient. In a federal workspace where taxpayers are having to pay for that makes no sense.
- [07:53]
Randy Irwin
As we sit here, I believe the number was something like, tell me if you know a different number. 75,000 government employees have taken advantage of an offer, sort of a buyout to leave their jobs and get an eight month paid vacation. What are your thoughts about this whole process?
- [08:11]
Expert Speaker
It's terrible for our country. It was, you know, in our view, a bad deal for federal employees. Our recommendation was people got to decide for themselves. But our recommendation is don't accept it. The way you described it is not really what it was. You know, the offer, the way it was kind of billed publicly was, you know, it's like an early resignation and you essentially get to be home till September 30th. That's not what the contract really said. So people are probably going to have to continue to work to that day. Those people that accepted that, there's also no protection from a reduction in force. So, I mean, the whole thing was a threat. If you don't resign, then there's going to be a reduction in force and you're going to be fired. So they were under duress, under threat of being fired. But even if they accepted it, even if they accepted the deferred resignation, they can still be riffed, they can still be let go. And so it wasn't a good deal. And that's the deal with that.
- [09:12]
Randy Irwin
Could you explain a little more what the contract said that could keep those people who took advantage of it, could make them have to keep working or coming into the office for some time.
- [09:22]
Expert Speaker
I don't have the exact verbiage, but the gist of it is there was no guarantee that, that you're going to be put on administrative leave. Because some people, why would people, some do it? Some people might say, okay, I can get paid for six months. I can go work another job or, you know, go on vacation or whatever. You want to spend more time with your family, whatever it is. But there's a big difference between that and having to continue to work until that resignation date.
- [09:54]
Monster.com Advertiser
Are you feeling stuck in your career or lacking employment at the moment? Experiencing symptoms of job dissatisfaction? You might be suffering from a common condition known as career stagnation. But don't worry, there's a solution. Monster.com Monster.com offers a comprehensive suite of career boosting tools designed just for you. Our free resume review and AI interview prep tool will help you stand out from the crowd. Need more guidance? Dive into our career advice articles for expert tips and insights. And don't forget to check out our salary tools to ensure you're getting paid what you're worth. Side effects may include a new job, increased confidence, and a brighter future. Consult monster.com today and take the first step towards your new career. Ready for your next job opportunity? Visit monster.com now.
- [10:39]
Narrator
Work takes up most of your time. That's why you should use stamps.com to save time with your mailing and shipping and have flexibility to focus on more important things. Stamps.com can handle all your mailing and shipping needs with rates up to 88% off. USPS and UPS. Add flexibility to your day with stamps.com Go to stamps.com program to sign up for a special offer. No contract. Cancel Anytime. That's stamps.com program.
- [11:11]
Randy Irwin
What do you foresee in the next four or even 10 years as a result of what's going to happen in the next four years? If government is significantly downsized, as this administration says it intends to do.
- [11:24]
Cheryl Atkison
It.
- [11:24]
Expert Speaker
Will be an absolute disaster in this country. It really will be. People do not understand the critical services that our federal government provides. You know, we've got 2 million, 2.2 million federal workers. That number has not grown in 50 years. So it's, it's, it's another fallacy that our government is so big in terms of the number of federal employees. It has not grown. Our population has grown. The scope of what government does has grown, but the number of federal workers has not. They've been squeezed and squeezed and squeezed over the years. But, you know, I'm really worried we just can't provide the services. You know, it'll take 10 years to get a passport. You know, the. How long would it take for to. You've heard about length of list to get a VA appointment? It, you know, if we lost 75% of the VA workforce, we would no longer be making good on the promise to care for our veterans in this country. Our military will not be ready. Our homeland security will be compromised. We will not have safe air travel. We will not have clean water, clean safe food, safe air travel. The list goes on and on. You can't have those kind of cuts and have even a semblance of the services that are done for the American people. And even if they change course, they have done permanent damage already by politicizing the federal workforce. I mean, for over a century, we have had an apolitical. A federal workforce swears an oath to the Constitution, you know, to uphold the Constitution and serve the American people. And now they have learned that they can be threatened. And if you can be threatened and you can insert politics into, into the function, into the, the successful functioning of our government, they are no longer safe. People used to think, well, if I get a federal job that comes with some protections, that some comes with some job security, that's another one. Job security is gone in the federal government now. So all those people that would be federal employees, and it's costly to recruit and retain a federal employee. A lot of people are just going to Say, you know, it is not worth it. I don't want to go there because right now they're seeing people be fired for just doing their jobs.
- [13:37]
Randy Irwin
This is not a key point that I was going to focus on. I'll mention it. You're the expert. I'm not. But I thought I heard President Clinton or someone in the Clinton administration in a clip just in the past couple days, sized the workforce at the time, which would have been the 90s at something like 1.8, 1.5 to 1.8 million, which would be smaller than it is today if it's 2.2. But.
- [13:59]
Expert Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, it's been 25 years.
- [14:01]
Randy Irwin
Yeah, you said it hadn't.
- [14:02]
Expert Speaker
You know, there was, I mean, I have seen some clips recently of Clinton and Gore and they're reinventing government initiative. And guess what? They reinvented government. Previously, we didn't have email, we didn't have electronic communications. You had a lot of clerks. You had a lot of paperwork. And that meant a lot of employees. And so that was an important initiative to kind of like move into the electronic era. But there is not a corresponding technological advance that allows us to do that, to do that sort of thing again right now. And so the things that Trump and Musk are doing are hitting at the heart of the surfaces. They are cutting into the bone. There is no fat left to squeeze or cut from from government. There's very little left. The things that they're talking about, 75% of the federal workforce will decimate services. And we're, and it's dangerous for our country.
- [14:53]
Randy Irwin
And I'm not trying to knock. I want to play devil's advocate and give the view that probably you're hearing or a lot of people are saying, I know there are awesome federal employees. Some of them are sources for stories that I do. They're hardworking, they're honest, you know, fantastic. We've all though been through the bureaucracy where we, we've seen inefficiencies. We know how long it takes to do something simple. We can't get things done. The idea, the idol I idealized ideal of all this is we pare down the workforce. Those who are left are the hardest workers who want to be there the most and they're going to be more efficient and the streamlined process makes everything better. Is there any way to say that that's absolutely impossible?
- [15:37]
Expert Speaker
Well, that's definitely not what they're. What we're going to get from these initiatives, I mean, they sent out a deferred resignation offer to over 2 million federal workers of 90% or more. And so you're not keeping the most efficient, the highest producers. Those are the ones who can more easily find work elsewhere. They're just trying to get rid of numbers. They're trying to break our government. They're putting a stick in the spokes. They're pouring sand on the gears. That does not make our government more efficient, and it doesn't help provide those services to the American people.
- [16:13]
Randy Irwin
If there's no way to change this course that it's headed, if there are lawsuits that try to stop it, that don't work, what do you foresee in the next couple of years? What are you going to tell people? Are your predictions?
- [16:24]
Expert Speaker
I don't think that can possibly happen. I mean, we can see a reduction, a little bit of a percentage, you know, but nothing in the neighborhood of 75% because people, it'll change the way we exist in this country. We take so much for granted, but communities will burn to the ground if we don't have enough Wildland firefighters, that's a big one. You know, in the Forest Service, we got layoff notices. There's about 20,000 people in the Forest Service, 3,400 got layoff notices yesterday. And it's just the first round. I was with these people. It was heartbreaking to talk to them and hear their stories. But if you just saw what happened out in California, the wildfire problem in this country is growing. It's the federal government, the U.S. forest Service, that controls wildfire. If we lose 75% of that workforce, communities are going to burn to the ground, and people should be up in arms. They got to get the message that we got to stop it from happening. But once I think they see a few examples of how bad things get with these type of cuts, I think there's going to be outcries, and I think Congress is going to change course. Trump signed a big executive order, you know, just this week, directing people to find, directing federal agencies to go forth and do reductions in force, mass reductions in force. The first ones that they're doing are workers that are on probation. So of the 2.2 million, a little over 200,000 are probationary employees. And those are the first ones being laid off. They have the fewest protections of federal workers because once you get up to one year, you're off your probation, your protections go up. But it doesn't change the fact that this is a mass firing. And so we're going to start to see the effects of these kinds of Policies. But, I mean, we filed a lawsuit. It's completely illegal what they're doing. You know, they're trying to follow Elon Musk and his Twitter firing model. That does not apply in the federal government. We have laws. There's a RIF procedure. It is spelled out in law. It is a regulated thing, and you have to follow that procedure. And, you know, an important thing is the Constitution. Following the Constitution right now, because Trump is, you know, Article 2, Section 3 of the Constitution. He has to faithfully execute the laws of this country, and he is flaunting the laws. He is not executing them at all. And that's why you're seeing so many lawsuits.
- [18:54]
Randy Irwin
Okay, anything else you want to add about this topic that I didn't ask you?
- [18:58]
Expert Speaker
I think that's it.
- [19:00]
Randy Irwin
You're good enough the second time. So you could sit there for just a moment. How long have you had this position?
- [19:07]
Expert Speaker
A little eight and a half years now.
- [19:09]
Randy Irwin
Wow.
- [19:09]
Expert Speaker
And a half years.
- [19:10]
Randy Irwin
Okay.
- [19:10]
Expert Speaker
Yeah.
- [19:11]
Randy Irwin
You've seen a lot of changes. Did you think this, did you see this coming? You know, before he was elected, were you thinking, if he's elected, this will happen, or is this sort of a surprise?
- [19:20]
Expert Speaker
Well, we got a taste of it in the first administration, and then a lot of the things that he's doing right now were spelled out in Project 2025, and they're, you know, during his campaign, he tried to distance himself from Project 2025, but at this point, a lot of things, he is executing that, you know, to. To the T. So we, we had a, you know, we definitely had a sense because we read that. We saw a lot of stories like.
- [19:45]
Randy Irwin
Emergency meetings or anything.
- [19:48]
Expert Speaker
Yeah, it's been nonstop emergency meetings. But, you know, our membership is growing. Our membership, we've had more growth in the last three weeks than at any point in our history because federal employees are feeling threatened. We do feel like we are. We have a righteous cause here because we, you know, our members, they care about the services that they provide. You know, I'll take it back. There is one other thing that I need to talk about. You know, let's. Yeah. One part of the story that needs to be told is the impact on veterans because 30% of the federal workforce are veterans. And if they lay off 75% of the federal workforce, they are going to be firing half a million veterans in this country. And I don't care who you voted for. That is not what the American people want, and it should be completely unacceptable. The other part is, you know, the Department of Veterans affairs is one of the biggest agencies in the federal government after DOD. It's the second biggest. Over 400,000 employees making good on that promise to care for the American veteran. And if we lose 75% of the workforce, we will no longer be making good on that promise. And that's the thing that we just cannot possibly have. And it really does break my heart to be thinking of veterans calling a suicide hotline and there'd be nobody there to answer the phone. And that's what we're going to get if we go down this road.
- [21:26]
Cheryl Atkison
You can see this interview but hear the entire story, which includes the other side and more information on full measure March 30. You will also hear about how there are numbers and studies that do support that 6% figure at some agencies. There was also a self survey that came up with a 6% figure of people who come into the office all the time when they're federal workers. So you'll hear all of those viewpoints and more information on March 30th. To find out where to watch Full Measure, just go to cheryl Atkison.com and click on the Full Measure tab. You can find a station and a time in your area or you can always watch online at FullMeasure News. We feed the program around 9:35am Eastern Time at Fullmeasure News on Sundays and then we post the program there afterwards. So if you happen to be listening to this after March 30th, you can still go to FullMeasure News and look for the story on Telework. Be sure to check out my five star bestseller, Follow the Science How Big Pharma Misleads, Obscures and Prevails. This book has never been more relevant. The information in it, meticulously cited and documented, never been more important to your health and your family's health. Find out why so many people are saying that even though they consider themselves very well informed on the issue of health and the medical establishment corruption, that most of what I have in this book are things that they didn't know anything about. That's Follow the Science How Big Pharma Misleads, Obscures, and Prevails do your own research. Make up your own mind. Think for yourself.