Podcast Summary

Podcast: Full Measure After Hours
Episode: Back to Work or Out of Work (From the Archives)
Host: Sharyl Attkisson
Guest: Randy Irwin, President of the National Federation of Federal Employees
Release Date: November 27, 2025

Overview

This episode explores the Trump administration’s hardline stance on federal telework and mass workforce reductions. Sharyl Attkisson interviews Randy Irwin, president of the National Federation of Federal Employees, for an insider’s perspective on the political, operational, and human impacts of bringing federal employees back to in-person work and implementing large-scale layoffs. The conversation highlights competing narratives, dispels misconceptions, and raises serious concerns about the repercussions of rapidly downsizing government.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Evolution of Federal Telework

• Irwin debunks the idea that COVID-19 was the true beginning of federal telework. Telework started with the Bush administration’s post-9/11 push for government continuity in emergencies, enabled by advancements in laptops and home internet.

  • “The start of the story is when people started having access to laptops and Internet at home...after 9/11 telework became a very high priority.” (Randy Irwin, 02:31)

• The COVID pandemic significantly expanded telework, and Irwin calls it a “success story”:

  • “Virtually overnight, the federal workforce was sent home, but it was really a success story because our government continued to operate.” (Randy Irwin, 02:56)

2. The Telework ‘Crisis’ Narrative

• Clarification of Telework Data:

  • Misquoted statistic: Trump and other critics claim “only 6% of federal workers are coming to work.”
    • Irwin counters:
      • 54% of workers aren’t eligible for telework and already work in-person full time.
      • Only 37% are eligible, and even those spend 61% of their time onsite.
      • Overall, federal telework is less prevalent than in the private sector.
        • “It is very much a made-up problem that federal workers aren’t coming to work. That’s nonsense.” (Randy Irwin, 03:32-04:34)

• Cause of Resentment:

  • Irwin notes the politicization of telework and suggests public jealousy/perceptions about “lazy” federal workers are fueled by opponents of big government.
    • “People perpetuating these falsehoods...makes federal employees seem lazy when overall that is not the truth.” (Randy Irwin, 04:56-05:54)

3. Office Space, Costs, and Efficiency

• No Real Estate Savings:

  • Irwin argues that bringing workers back actually increases costs (utilities, space), and federal agencies have missed an opportunity to downsize physical office space to save taxpayer money.
    • “What really should have happened is ...downsize those offices and actually save the American taxpayer money.” (Randy Irwin, 06:22)

• Effectiveness of Telework:

  • 81% of federal workdays are, in fact, spent in the office.
    • “So really, those who are not effective at telework have come back into the office, by and large.” (Randy Irwin, 07:15-07:45)

4. The Voluntary Buyout & Mass Firings

• Buyout Offers:
  • Approx. 75,000 federal employees accepted a buyout/resignation program, but Irwin says it’s “a bad deal”—no guarantee of leave, threat of firing still present, and some recipients must continue working until resignation date.
    • “The whole thing was a threat. If you don’t resign, then there’s going to be a reduction in force and you’re going to be fired.” (Randy Irwin, 08:19-09:19)

5. Impacts of Large-Scale Federal Downsizing

• Irwin predicts “absolute disaster” if the workforce is reduced by 75% as planned:

  • Essential services will collapse: longer waits for passports and VA appointments, threats to military readiness, public safety, and disaster response.
    • “You can’t have those kind of cuts and have even a semblance of the services...” (Randy Irwin, 10:18-12:28)

• The U.S. federal workforce has not grown in 50 years (while population and service scope have).

• The process has undermined the tradition of a nonpartisan, apolitical federal workforce with job protections.

  • “Job security is gone in the federal government now...It’s costly to recruit and retain a federal employee. A lot of people are just going to say, you know, it is not worth it.” (Randy Irwin, 11:39-12:30)

6. Technology, Bureaucracy, and Efficiency Arguments

• Clinton/Gore-era workforce reductions were aided by digitization; Irwin notes no such transformation exists now to justify further cuts.

  • “There is not a corresponding technological advance...They are cutting into the bone. There is no fat left to ...cut from government.” (Randy Irwin, 12:57-13:47)

• Responding to the “leaner, meaner” argument, Irwin says the mass layoff approach disproportionately harms high performers who can more easily find other employment, and “puts a stick in the spokes” of good government.

  • “They’re just trying to get rid of numbers. They’re trying to break our government. They’re putting a stick in the spokes, they’re pouring sand on the gears. That does not make our government more efficient.” (Randy Irwin, 14:30)

7. Predictions & Immediate Consequences

• Scale of Impact: Irwin doubts the full extent of proposed cuts will go through, but partial cuts are already causing pain—wildfire fighting capacity, veteran services, and frontline agencies see immediate effects.

  • “Communities will burn to the ground if we don’t have enough wildland firefighters...It was heartbreaking to talk to them and hear their stories.” (Randy Irwin, 15:17-16:38)

• 200,000+ probationary federal employees are first to be terminated, and more will follow unless there is congressional intervention after public backlash.

  • “We filed a lawsuit. It’s completely illegal what they’re doing. They’re trying to follow Elon Musk and his Twitter firing model. That does not apply in the federal government.” (Randy Irwin, 17:07-17:47)

8. Project 2025 and Union Response

• Much of what’s happening was outlined in Project 2025 (conservative blueprint for government overhaul), which Trump is now executing.

  • “A lot of the things that he’s doing right now were spelled out in Project 2025...So we definitely had a sense.” (Randy Irwin, 17:56-18:23)

• Union membership is rapidly rising due to workers feeling threatened.

• High percent of federal employees are veterans—layoffs would mean firing half a million veterans and drastically undercutting the VA’s ability to serve.

  • “If they lay off 75% of the federal workforce, they are going to be firing half a million veterans in this country...if we lose 75% of the [VA] workforce, we will no longer be making good on that promise [to veterans].” (Randy Irwin, 18:24-19:52)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It is very much a made up problem that federal workers aren’t coming to work. That’s nonsense.”
  — Randy Irwin (04:34)

• “What really should have happened is ...downsized those offices and actually save the American taxpayer money.”
  — Randy Irwin (06:22)

• “It will be an absolute disaster in this country. It really will be. People do not understand the critical services that our federal government provides.”
  — Randy Irwin (10:18)

• “They’re trying to break our government. They’re putting a stick in the spokes, they’re pouring sand on the gears. That does not make our government more efficient.”
  — Randy Irwin (14:30)

• “Communities will burn to the ground if we don’t have enough wildland firefighters...It was heartbreaking to talk to them and hear their stories.”
  — Randy Irwin (15:18)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:31] – Irwin explains the real beginnings of federal telework
• [03:32] – Telework statistics and debunking the “6%” myth
• [06:22] – Argues bringing workers back increases costs
• [08:19] – Details and criticisms of the buyout program
• [10:18] – Predicts consequences of massive federal downsizing
• [12:57] – The Clinton/Gore “reinventing government” compared to today
• [14:30] – Response to claims of increased efficiency through layoffs
• [15:17] – Specific impacts on services such as wildfire response
• [17:56] – Project 2025’s role and union emergency response
• [18:24] – Layoffs’ impact on veterans and the Department of Veterans Affairs

Conclusion

This episode offers an impassioned critique of the Trump administration’s push to reduce federal telework and workforce size, highlighting the political, social, and operational complexity of such changes. The interview with Randy Irwin provides a union leader’s view—challenging prevailing media narratives and warning of immediate and lasting damage to essential government services, especially for veterans and vulnerable communities. Listeners are prompted to look for more comprehensive coverage—including opposing views and supporting data—on Full Measure’s March 30 TV program.