Full Measure After Hours: Congressman Thomas Massie – A Maverick Nicknamed 'Mr. No'

Release Date: May 15, 2025

In this episode of Full Measure After Hours, host Cheryl Atkinson engages in a candid and in-depth conversation with Congressman Thomas Massie, a Republican representative from Kentucky renowned for his staunch fiscal conservatism and independent streak within Congress. The discussion delves into Massie's ongoing battles against excessive Washington D.C. spending, political corruption, and the pervasive influence of the pharmaceutical industry, among other pressing issues.

1. Standing Alone in Congress

Massie's Lone Dissenting Votes

From the onset (02:03), Massie emphasizes his role as a solitary voice within the Republican Party on several key issues. He recounts his recent votes:

• Speaker of the House: "I was the only dissenting Republican on making Mike Johnson the speaker." (02:18)
• Republican Budget Framework: "I was the only dissenting Republican on our budget, which is also known as the framework for the reconciliation bill." (02:18)
• Continuing Resolution (CR): "I was the lone dissenting Republican on the continuing resolution, which is a cut copy paste of Biden's last 15 months in office." (02:18)

Massie underscores his unwavering commitment to principles, stating, "I don't change my principles or my voting criteria based on who the president is." (02:18)

Reasons Behind the Dissent

He criticizes his colleagues' shifting justifications for budgetary decisions:

• Election Concerns: Initially, the CR was justified to prevent disrupting the election process.
• Post-Election Reasons: After securing electoral victories, the focus shifted to delaying budget decisions until the new administration was in place (03:31).

Massie asserts that these shifting reasons are mere smokescreens masking the true agenda of unchecked spending: "The Freedom Caucus gotten a suicide pact with the president to just keep running up our debt and our deficit." (02:18)

2. Relationship with President Trump

Interactions and Support

Despite occasional disagreements, Massie highlights a generally respectful and supportive relationship with President Trump:

• Personal Support: "He took my call on the second ring." (06:06)
• Endorsements and Cabinet Discussions: Massie discusses his endorsement and conversations about potential cabinet positions (07:15).

Confrontations and Independence

Massie recounts instances where Trump has openly criticized him:

• CARES Act Opposition: In 2020, Trump labeled Massie a "third rate grandstander" for opposing the CARES Act. More recently, Trump accused him of always voting "no," diminishing his stature within the party (08:25; 08:27).

Massie interprets these attacks as strategic moves to discourage other Republicans from following his example: "The attack on me, I think, was to demonstrate to the other horses that were still in the barn who were thinking about coming out of the barn." (08:46)

3. Critique of Executive Orders and Government Spending

Assessment of Trump's Executive Actions

Massie acknowledges Trump's intentions to reduce federal government size but criticizes the approach:

• Executive Orders vs. Legislative Action: "If the Democrats controlled the Senate and the House, but Republicans controlled the Senate and the House, the right approach here... is to press all three levers of government." (13:17)
• Legal Challenges: He foresees legal obstacles, noting that executive orders often face court challenges, which could undermine their effectiveness (10:10).

Budgetary Concerns

Massie vehemently opposes the Republican budget framework, labeling it a "suicide pact to spend us into oblivion." He criticizes the unrealistic economic assumptions underpinning the budget:

• Growth Assumptions: "It assumes 2.5% growth every year for 10 years in a row. We've never had 10 years in a row of positive growth." (15:55)
• Debt Projections: Conflicting estimates place the ten-year debt addition between $20 trillion to $30 trillion (15:55).

4. Influence of Pharmaceutical Companies on Congress

Lobbying and Financial Influence

Massie exposes the deep-rooted influence of pharmaceutical companies in Congress:

• PAC Contributions Limitations: Although individual contributions are capped at $5,000, companies funnel money through employee donations and party super PACs (25:54).
• Speaker's Role as a Gatekeeper: The Speaker of the House wields significant influence over committee assignments, effectively controlling legislative agendas favoring pharmaceutical interests (25:54).

Committee Assignments and Corruption

Massie describes the process of securing prestigious committees, essential for influencing legislation:

• Fundraising as a Prerequisite: "You have to walk across the street to the NRCC and make those phone calls." (32:17)
• Deferred Positions: Due to his refusal to engage in extensive fundraising, Massie remains excluded from key committees like Ways and Means, which oversee tax policies and have significant regulatory power over industries like pharmaceuticals (30:09).

Case Study: Dr. Dave Weldon and FDA Leadership

Massie references the ousting of Dr. Dave Weldon from consideration for FDA leadership, attributing it to pharmaceutical lobbying efforts reacting to Weldon's transparent and accurate statements that clashed with industry interests (24:07).

5. Health Policy and Pharmaceutical Advertising

COVID-19 and Vaccine Promotion

Massie critiques the government's role in pharmaceutical advertising:

• Government-Paid Ads: He points out that government agencies like the CDC and NIH receive substantial funds to promote vaccines, potentially undermining the efficacy and safety narratives surrounding them (22:00).
• Libertarian Perspective: Although advocating for minimal governmental interference, Massie acknowledges issues arising from the synergy between pharmaceutical endorsements and government approvals, complicating accountability for vaccine-related adverse effects (24:19).

Legislative Proposals to Regulate Pharma Ads

Massie discusses proposed measures, inspired by allies like RFK Jr., to restrict pharmaceutical advertising:

• Total Ban on Ads: Suggesting that pharmaceutical companies shouldn't be able to advertise products that have immunity from liability and questioning the necessity of such immunity (22:00).
• Accountability Measures: Proposes halting CDC and NIH promotions of pharmaceuticals to reduce bias and influence (24:19).

6. Future Outlook and Political Collision Course

Impending Political Conflicts

Massie foresees a looming conflict within the Republican Party and between Congress and the executive branch:

• Collision Course: "I think we may get to that collision course in the next six months." (17:39)
• Speaker Mike Johnson's Fragility: He critiques Speaker Johnson's loyalty to Trump as a potential liability, predicting that institutional constraints will eventually clash with Trump's agenda (17:56; 18:59).

Potential Outcomes

Massie speculates on the potential stagnation or warfare that could ensue if unresolved conflicts persist:

• Log Jam Analogy: "Like a traffic jam or a log jam." (17:56)
• Trump's Role: Emphasizes that the resolution of these conflicts heavily depends on Trump's strategic decisions moving forward (17:56).

7. Agricultural Advocacy and Local Markets

Support for Raw Milk and Local Farming

Highlighting another area of legislative interest, Massie champions the raw milk movement and the elimination of barriers for local farmers:

• Market Access: Advocates for farmers to interact locally and have unfettered access to markets, ensuring the availability of healthy, locally-sourced food (20:24).
• Opposition to Established Interests: Criticizes entities like the Farm Bureau for imposing burdensome regulations and subsidies that stifle free-market principles (20:24).

Maha Ball Initiative

Massie references the Maha Ball as a significant event aligning with his agricultural priorities, signaling growing momentum for these initiatives (20:24).

8. Conclusion and Final Insights

Congressman Massie's interview presents a vivid portrait of a legislator deeply committed to fiscal responsibility, transparency, and breaking away from entrenched political practices. His steadfastness in voting against party lines and confronting influential industries underscores his reputation as a maverick within Congress. Massie's insights into the systemic issues plaguing American politics—ranging from budgetary mismanagement to the corrosive influence of lobbyists—offer listeners a critical examination of the current political landscape. As the episode concludes, the anticipation of upcoming political battles and Massie's role in them leaves the audience with a sense of impending change and the hope for greater accountability and integrity in governance.

Notable Quotes:

• "I don't change my principles or my voting criteria based on who the president is." – Thomas Massie (02:18)

• "The Freedom Caucus gotten a suicide pact with the president to just keep running up our debt and our deficit." – Thomas Massie (02:18)

• "The attack on me... was to demonstrate to the other horses that were still in the barn... that you want to stay in the barn." – Thomas Massie (08:23)

• "The Republican budget... is a suicide pact to spend us into oblivion." – Thomas Massie (15:55)

• "Once you get approval from the FDA, if something bad goes wrong, well, they've got the imprimatur of the government." – Thomas Massie (24:19)

• "We're just gonna sit there and spin your wheels." – Thomas Massie (13:17)

For a comprehensive understanding of Congressman Thomas Massie's positions and future legislative endeavors, tune into the full podcast episode or visit Cheryl Attkisson's website for additional resources and coverage.