After Hours: Donkey Kong: Democrats Scramble for Direction, Leadership

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Full Measure After Hours – “Donkey Kong: Democrats Scramble for Direction, Leadership”

Host: Sharyl Attkisson
Date: May 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Full Measure After Hours, Sharyl Attkisson examines the Democratic Party’s struggle to redefine its identity and leadership as the 2026 midterms approach. The discussion explores behind-the-scenes maneuvering, internal party shifts, the influence of populist movements on both sides, and lessons learned from recent scandals, all with keen insights from figures across the political spectrum. Featured guests include Democrat Seth Magaziner, Republican Congressman Chip Roy, Democrat Senator Ron Wyden, and Independent Senator Angus King.

The central theme is Democrats’ scramble for unity, direction, and fresh leadership in the post-Trump era, set against a backdrop of ideological tensions and a changing political landscape.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. California’s Political Machinations and the Swalwell Scandal

[00:04] – [02:03]

• Attkisson describes how the removal of Eric Swalwell from the California governor’s race—amidst a sex scandal—appeared to benefit Democrats by consolidating party votes and improving their odds in the top-two primary system, which had threatened to shut Democrats out of the general election.
• Attkisson: “Eliminating Democrat Eric Swalwell from the California governor’s race over a sex scandal seems to have been effective in consolidating Democrat votes...” (00:34)

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2. Democratic Party Turnover and the Search for New Leadership

Guest: Seth Magaziner (Democrat, Rhode Island)
[02:03] – [04:47]

• Magaziner frames the current moment as a necessary and healthy generational shift in Democratic leadership, moving away from longstanding figures like Nancy Pelosi toward a diverse set of new leaders from both moderate and progressive wings.
• He notes the “messy and contentious” aspects of this turnover but sees it as ultimately positive for innovation and engagement.
• Quote: “Having some turnover and some change in leadership is a healthy thing. And you’re seeing that happen in the Democratic Party. Now. It can be messy and, and it can be contentious at times, but ultimately it’s a good thing.” – Seth Magaziner (02:54)
• Magaziner draws parallels to voter frustration with Republican “establishment” politics—echoed in the rise of Trump—and acknowledges some Democrats are drifting toward the far left as an alternative to establishment centrism.
• On the subject of party orthodoxy and corruption, he calls for more willingness to call out wrongdoing in both parties, referencing issues such as congressional stock trading and ethics violations:
• Quote: “What I think the American people are hungering for is political figures of both parties who are willing to call out their own parties when it comes to issues of corruption.” – Seth Magaziner (04:16)

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3. Populism, the Radical Left, and Contrasts in Motivation

Guest: Congressman Chip Roy (Republican, Texas)
[04:47] – [08:53]

• Roy discusses the progressive and even “socialist, communist, radical” resurgence among Democrats, seeing it as a reaction distinct from the pro-Trump populist strain among Republicans.
• Roy argues that while both left and right react to “establishment fatigue,” the right’s populism seeks a return to “core American” values—limited government, sovereignty—while the left’s new energy aims to fundamentally alter America’s direction.
• He emphasizes differences in policy focus, especially critiquing single-payer healthcare and warning against a fully “socialist country.”
• Quote: “I think the radical left has an agenda to take America in a different direction. I think the...populist right...is to try to return government...to the people in a more populous way, for better and worse.” – Chip Roy (06:18)
• He warns of gridlock and uninspiring leadership emerging from “the swamp,” yet stresses the need for bold reforms on both sides.

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4. “Best Politics are Good Policy” and Listening to the People

Guest: Senator Ron Wyden (Democrat, Oregon)
[08:53] – [12:09]

• Wyden argues that the best political strategy is rooted in sound, pragmatic policy that directly helps constituents (e.g., organ donation, rural health care).
• He underscores the importance of open town halls, including in heavily Republican (“bright red”) areas, and the need for politicians to actively listen.
• Quote: “The best thing you can do for your politics is do your job and get out and listen, listen, listen, listen.” – Ron Wyden (10:21)
• Wyden senses a growing trend towards political independence and libertarian values and reflects on personal moments where principled, early stances (such as on marriage equality) resonated across the spectrum.

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5. Independents, Growing Frustration, and the Dangers of Polarization

Guest: Senator Angus King (Independent, Maine)
[12:09] – [20:11]

A. Democratic Alignment and Constitutional Concerns ([12:26] – [13:45])

• King acknowledges a closer alignment with Democrats but frames his primary concern as defending constitutional checks and balances.
• Critiques the “cop out” among colleagues who rely on courts to resolve critical questions:
  Quote: “Most of what I am hearing from them is, well, the courts will take care of us. I think that’s a cop out, frankly.” – Angus King (13:38)

B. The “Balkanization” of News, Tyranny of the Primary, and Gridlock ([14:28] – [17:36])

• King laments the media echo chambers dividing the country into “two separate factual universes.” Quote: “Everybody now...they’re looking for affirmation rather than information...our country’s been divided into two separate factual universes.” – Angus King (14:35)
• He critiques low-turnout primaries for empowering ideological extremes within parties, punishing compromise and fueling dysfunction in Congress. Quote: “You can lose your primary if you’re deemed not sufficiently hostile to the other side...That’s dangerous.” – Angus King (16:26)
• King champions reforms like open and ranked-choice primaries to incentivize broader, less polarized representation.

C. Democrats’ Disconnect with Rural America ([17:48] – [19:08])

• Reflects on Democrats’ loss of rural and small-town voters, citing focus on “exotic issues” and a lack of attention to working-class concerns like inflation and immigration.
• Cites the Biden administration’s mishandling of the immigration issue as a key error:
  Quote: “One of the great mistakes of the Biden administration was not attending to the immigration issue when it was obvious that it was a major issue…there was never any czarring going on.” – Angus King (19:08)

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Notable Quotes by Timestamp

• Seth Magaziner:
  “Having some turnover and some change in leadership is a healthy thing...” (02:54)
  “...Political figures of both parties who are willing to call out their own parties when it comes to issues of corruption.” (04:16)

• Chip Roy:
  “I think the radical left has an agenda to take America in a different direction...” (06:18)

• Ron Wyden:
  “The best thing you can do for your politics is do your job and get out and listen, listen, listen, listen.” (10:21)

• Angus King:
  “Everybody now...they’re looking for affirmation rather than information...our country’s been divided into two separate factual universes.” (14:35)
  “You can lose your primary if you’re deemed not sufficiently hostile to the other side...That’s dangerous.” (16:26)
  “One of the great mistakes of the Biden administration was not attending to the immigration issue when it was obvious that it was a major issue…there was never any czarring going on.” (19:08)

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Memorable Moments & Takeaways

• Attkisson’s recounting of Eric Swalwell’s scandal as a piece of political strategy is a sharp window into realpolitik.
• Bipartisan agreement on the American public’s desire for authentic anti-corruption reform.
• King’s extended lament about the “tyranny of the primary” and media “Balkanization” stands out as a structural critique.
• Wyden’s mantra—“listen, listen, listen”—serves as a unifying call for political renewal.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:04 – Host’s introduction; California political context
• 02:03 – Seth Magaziner on Democratic leadership turnover
• 04:47 – Chip Roy on populism and the radical left
• 08:53 – Ron Wyden on good politics as good policy and listening
• 12:09 – Angus King on independence, polarization, and rural disconnect

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Conclusion

This episode provides a candid, multi-perspective account of the Democratic Party’s internal turbulence as it seeks to captivate voters in a fractured and rapidly changing political environment. It’s a must-listen for those interested in the deep-rooted challenges shaping American political dynamics ahead of the 2026 midterms.

Transcript

[Senator Angus King]

Foreign.

[Cheryl Akisson]

Hi, everybody, it's Cheryl Akisson. Welcome to another edition of Full Measure after hours today, Donkey Kong. Democrats are scrambling for a direction and leader for the midterms and beyond. Democrats are scrambling to find the identity and leader that are most likely to win them control of Congress and the next seat in the Oval Office. Eliminating Democrat Eric Swalwell from the California governor's race over a sex scandal seems to have been effective in consolidating Democrat votes there to ensure at least one Democrat gets enough support in the upcoming primary to make it to the general election. When Swalwell was in the race, the top vote getters were Republicans. And the way it works in California, only the top two advanced to the general election. That would have meant there was no chance for a Democrat to win. That was a big deal. Well, all of a sudden, up bubbles a sex scandal with years old allegations against Eric Swalwell. But it conveniently works, as I said, to consolidate Democrat votes and change that dynamic in California. On Sunday, May 17, I'll be talking about the Democrats search for a real leader that can take them beyond the Trump era. And I'll also be talking about the Democrats hard turn to the left, in many cases even embracing socialism and communism. In today's podcast, you will hear some thoughts from both Democrats and Republicans as we count down to the midterms that will decide which party controls Congress and largely the Washington agenda. First, Democrat Seth Magaziner of Rhode Island. What do you see is happening in terms of the direction and how that could impact or pull at the Democrat Party as a whole group? That can have impact.

[Democrat Seth Magaziner]

You know, I think what you're seeing in the Democratic Party now is a real turnover in leadership. Right. You know, Speaker Pelosi, who was the leader for Democrats in the House for two decades, is stepping back. We have a new leadership team with Hakeem Jeffries and Catherine Clark. You have newer faces emerging in the Democratic Party, both in the more moderate camp and in the more progressive camp. And that's a healthy thing. I think it is a healthy thing to have some generational turnover and some new faces and new ideas emerge. There will always be a moderate and a progressive wing of the Democratic Party, just like there will always be a more moderate and more far right wing of the Republican Party. But having some turnover and some change in leadership is a healthy thing. And you're seeing that happen in the Democratic Party. Now. It can be messy and, and it can be contentious at times, but ultimately it's a good thing.

[Cheryl Akisson]

If the answer to this is no, no worries. I just, I see what I think are a little bit of parallels between the establishment Republicans that were just weary of. I'm sorry, the population, which was weary of establishment Republicans and establishment politics and went for Trump.

[Republican Congressman Chip Roy]

Yeah.

[Cheryl Akisson]

And then I think there's also, there are Democrats who are weary of the establishment Democrats, but they're not going to go for Trump. And maybe some of those are seeking this, the socialist and the far left.

[Democrat Seth Magaziner]

I think they're seeking new faces, for sure. And by the way, I mean, Trump, even though he's someone who I disagree with on almost everything, you know, there are certain issues where, you know, he moderated himself compared to the prior establishment Republicans. Right.

[Cheryl Akisson]

Like, he is not far right on a lot of stuff. In fact, he's more like a Democrat on some issues.

[Democrat Seth Magaziner]

Oh, right. I mean, like, he, look, he's, he's, you know, far right. Too far right for me on a lot of things, and particularly on rule of law issues, which concern me deeply. But he doesn't talk about cutting Social Security the way even Mitt Romney or Paul Ryan did. Right. And so similarly, on the Democratic side, I think you will see new leaders emerge, and they already are emerging. And again, it's not about moving to the left, to the center. It's about new faces, it's about new voices, and it's about having the courage to break from the orthodoxy. But crucially to our conversation, you have to be willing to call out the corruption in Washington because the American people know it's there, and it's not just in Congress. Right. I mean, what I say is I am against corruption, whether it is stock trading in Congress, cryptocurrency being sold out of the Oval Office, or Supreme Court justices taking gifts from people who have business before the court. All of it is wrong, and we need to address all of it. And what I think the American people are hungering for is political figures of both parties who are willing to call out their own parties when it comes to issues of corruption.

[Cheryl Akisson]

Next up, Republican Congressman Chip Roy of Texas. It's almost like this far left, socialist, communist, radical element is a mirror image of the populist movement for Trump. In that I feel like there are a lot of Democrats who are discouraged with their establishment. And to the extent that they're not moderate, they're not going to go toward Trump or the Republican side, but they're looking for something, you know, kind of like Bernie Sanders was. And he was very popular, as you know, when he was running the last couple terms and got the party really didn't want him to be as popular as he was and engineered against him in the primaries. Do you just have any overarching thoughts about the future of the Democrat Party? What we're going to see, what's behind it?

[Republican Congressman Chip Roy]

I certainly think that we've seen some fairly extreme left candidates popping into the front of the Democrat Party. We saw it obviously in New York with Mamdani. We saw it in the recent congressional election. Even in Nashville, Tennessee. There was no real gray area about whether either of those candidates are coming from. I think we've seen some of it coming out of, and this gets into some of the Islamification issue and looking in Dearborn and looking in Minnesota, and there's a clear move in that radical direction. And I get what you're trying to say to draw parallels. I don't, I don't totally accept the parallels there. I think at the core of the, of the populist slash conservative resistance to the swamp is a reflection of the mass of the people. That's why it's kind of more populous who just want their country back. I think the radical left has an agenda to take America in a different direction. I think the, the agenda of the, of the populist right, if you will, for the most part, is to try to return government, you know, to the people in a more populous way, for better and worse. Right. I mean, there are pros and cons to a populist movement. But I do think that's a different, it's a different motivation. And I think that's a fair characterization. And I think we should recognize that characterization, that if you've got a strong Islamification wing, well, there's a motivation to that. If you got a strong socialist wing, well, we're not a socialist country. We've got a massive social welfare state. We've got a big government, but we're not a socialist country. We certainly don't advocate socialism. Whereas what you're hearing out of President Trump, out of the populist right, Freedom Caucus, conservatives, whatever you want to say is, hey, we want to get to the core of our limited government constitution, a sovereign nation, who we are as Americans and protect this country. So I do think there's different motivations there, but I do think they're certainly moving to a hard left position in their core leadership. And that if you're kind of going through the story and you're thinking through it from the context of frustrations with the swap, I might accept some degree of a parallel in only that this place, the swamp the institutions here has been stuck so long just churning the same kind of vanilla garbage that this town produces that no one's inspired by it. We've been moving the needle, I think, with some inspirational things that people are excited about, but we got a long way to go. We talked about healthcare a minute ago. If you want to inspire people to make healthcare affordable, right. And if you're a radical leftist, you want single payer health care, well, that's going to be your motivation against the sort of swamp driven issue. And they're going to have an argument for single payer health care. And I reject it because I think that's going to make health care much less effective for poor and hardworking middle class Americans alike. But if you're a conservative, then you better start saying insurance companies shouldn't choose your health care either. And we ought to be honest about that and say a doctor and a patient are the ones that get to control their health care. I know that was in the weeds, but I just think it goes to the core of it.

[Cheryl Akisson]

And now Democrat Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon. Do you have any thoughts just about where the party's headed and where the party's going to?

[Democrat Senator Ron Wyden]

I do the best politics are good policy. Just think about what we've done today. We're helping people who more than anything are hoping that a family member can get an organ and give them life. That's something that families really care about. And I think if somebody does it right and fixes it, they'll say that's the kind of person I want, you know, in office. Then we're talking about Mr. Epstein and I said that I thought following the money, I mean, hell, that's how we caught Al Capone is, you know, with taxes, not with all these other kinds of approaches. I think the American people, and I hear it in my town hall meetings. I've had more than 1100 open to all town hall meetings that people want to see elected officials stand up. I do a few things that are different. For example, at those town hall meetings, I just finished five in areas where Donald Trump got more than 70% of the vote. So they're very red, bright red. And I talk to them or really listen to them talk about health care because they're seeing that their rural hospitals are going to get flattened. So my counsel to everybody who's thinking about the politics of 2026, the best thing you can do for your politics is do your job and get out and listen, listen, listen, listen.

[Cheryl Akisson]

Is there any similarity? You see? And it's fine if the answer is no. But to this movement of Republicans that is weary of the establishment that elevated toward Trump, and is there a population of Democrats wary of the establishment, or they're thinking the establishment's not doing enough, that's going to, you know, making people popular that are in the socialist or farther progressive?

[Democrat Senator Ron Wyden]

I think independence in both parts of the spectrum are growing. I also think the sleeper area to watch is those who are moving towards the libertarian space. And you followed me in technology. I got a good stroke of DNA in my system. I was the first to come out for marriage equality back in 1995, years and years before anybody else. And I uttered one sentence. If you don't like gay marriage, don't get one. And I can walk into any part of America today and people say, that's right.

[Cheryl Akisson]

And how does that apply to what you're seeing today?

[Democrat Senator Ron Wyden]

Well, I think these independents are saying, I hear all the time about, you know, government getting off my back and getting out of my private affairs. I don't see them doing it. So again, when you put up specific approaches and all my advisors, I had the chance to become Oregon's first Democratic person to get the win in an election in 30 years, and all my advisors said, don't do that now. It's too early. Even folks in the gay community said it's too early. And I said, I believe it. And I believe, particularly if I'm saying that I've got a solution to it. I want to hear about the role of government. I said it, what I said with respect to gay marriage. And now I can have people applaud in the most conservative area and the most liberal area.

[Cheryl Akisson]

Last but not least, independent Senator Angus King of Maine. You are an independent. Is it fair to say you're more in line, if you had to pick one, you're more in line with the Democrat Party than the Republican Party.

[Senator Angus King]

Yes, I would be disingenuous if I didn't answer that question.

[Cheryl Akisson]

What are some the conversations you're having with your Democrat and maybe even some of your Republican colleagues in the Senate as these things are developing and decisions are being made about what to do?

[Senator Angus King]

Well, I think there's a lot of concern, and a lot of the concern is sort of immediate. You know, we don't want to lose the Department of Education or we're worried about funding for drug treatment programs or whatever. So there's kind of a. That's the sort of on the ground effort. But there are people that are starting to talk about this Whole larger constitutional issue, which frankly, I don't think should be partisan. This is what I'm giving you is a profoundly conservative position. It's going back to the original understanding and meaning of the Constitution and how it was designed. And they designed it in this herky jerky, you know, checks and balances for a reason. Again, to protect our liberty. Because that's a thousand years of human history tells us power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Now my Republican colleagues are starting to be a little uncomfortable about this. But as I said, most of what I am hearing from them is, well, the courts will take care of us. I think that's a cop out, frankly.

[Cheryl Akisson]

How long have you been in the Senate?

[Senator Angus King]

I'm starting my third term. I was elected in 2013. I was governor of Maine in the late 90s. And then I had 10 years back in the private sector. I'd had 25 years in the private sector before. I'm a kind of accidental politician. I didn't run for governor till I was 50 years old. I'd never run for anything before then. I had 10 years where I worked in the private sector, was on boards and did some entrepreneurial work and then was elected to the Senate in 2012.

[Cheryl Akisson]

From the 30,000 foot level view, not just as a senator. What do you think about everything that's going on with politics and the Trump presidency, the second term and so on?

[Senator Angus King]

Well, I think there are developments again outside of Donald Trump. One of the things that I've observed since I've been Here, which is 12 years, is two things. One is what I call the Balkanization of the news media. Everybody now, everybody, somebody said the other day they're looking for affirmation rather than information. And people choose the news media that sort of fits where they're coming from. If you're conservative, you watch Fox News. If you're a liberal, you watch msnbc. And the problem with that is we end up with people. Our country's been divided into two separate factual universes. And in my experience in public policy, if you can agree on the facts, it's pretty easy to solve, to figure out what the solution is. If you can't agree on the facts, it's practically impossible. And we have people that are walking around, as I say, in different factual universes. That's problem one. The other problem that I observed is what I call the tyranny of the primary, where primaries were came into being in the 50s and 60s to democratize selection of candidates. The problem is the national average of turnout in a primary is about 21% of the party. Who's that? 21% in the Republican Party today it's going to be the most passionate Trump, MAGA people in the Democratic Party. It tends to be the furthest to the left. And so you end up with people coming here with no interest whatsoever in talking to one another. And not only that, what's really dangerous, and I haven't seen it, I'm the only one, this is my idea. So who knows. But what I've seen is you can now lose your primary. Not because of your position on immigration or abortion or whatever it is, you can lose your primary if you're deemed not sufficiently hostile to the other side. In other words, you're a dead duck if you're viewed as somebody who's willing to listen to the other side and try to find a compromise solution. That's dangerous if you think about it, because people come here. None of these major problems can be solved without compromise. Nobody has all the right ideas. But if you come here afraid to talk, think about what does that do to the Congress. Paralysis can't solve problems. And that has nothing to do with Donald Trump. That's just where our politics have gone. And I think we need to be thinking about opening up primaries, letting independents vote in primaries, having systems of ranked choice voting and other open primaries. Because right now we're in a situation where it's sort of an institutional guarantee of gridlock. And I think that's a problem. Again, it has nothing to do with the current administration. There are problems like I outlined.

[Cheryl Akisson]

What reflections do you as an independent, kind of. What are your thoughts on?

[Senator Angus King]

Well, it's not my job to tell the Democrats how to run their plan.

[Cheryl Akisson]

But what are your observations? Not telling them what to do. But just what are some of your thoughts on all of that?

[Senator Angus King]

Well, let me back up a little. When I first came to the Senate, which is a dozen years ago, not all that long ago, just off the top of my head, there were Democratic senators from Indiana, South Dakota, North Dakota, Nebraska, West Virginia, two from Montana, Iowa. None of those states are in, are very much gettable by the Democrats today. Why is that? And I think it's a failure to have paid attention to rural voters, to small town voters. And I think that it's a mistake. I mean, I think there's been a, you know, a focus on sort of exotic issues from one side to the other. And I guess, you know, I'm not a profound commentator, but it's, it's, it's an alienation of particularly rural and small town voters. I mean, you look at the map and Donald Trump will tell you he carried, you know, five times the counties that Kamala Harris, but the counties he carried were small. A lot of counties, but not, you

[Cheryl Akisson]

know, a lot of space, but not concentration of people.

[Senator Angus King]

Exactly. But I, I think, and I, I feel very awkward because I don't, I don't feel like I'm, it's my job to advise the Democrats or anybody else for that matter. But I think a kind of return to the, to the working class roots of the Democratic Party, common sense issues that are of concern, whether it's inflation or, you know, the concerns about immigration. I think, I think one of the great mistakes of the Biden administration was not attending to the immigration issue when it was obvious that it was a major issue. Remember, they said Kamala Harris will be the border czar, but there was never any czarring going on. And I think that was a case where the Democrats were preoccupied with other issues and not really realizing how powerful that was and how concerning it was to people all over the country.

[Cheryl Akisson]

Sunday, May 17th on full measure, the Big Picture with more from all of these players. But I'm also going to dive into the history of socialism and communism in the United States. I think you'll find it very interesting. I hope you enjoyed today's podcast and that you'll consider sharing it with your friends. And if you leaving me a great review and subscribing, don't forget my other podcast, the Cheryl Akisson Podcast. And if you would like to find some fascinating, exclusive, original gifts for people you know who are independent thinkers while at the same time supporting independent reporting causes, you can go to cherylakkeson.com and click the store tab for some exciting products you'll only find there. Do your own research. Make up your own mind. Think for yourself.