After Hours: El Salvador's Remarkable ‘Tough on Crime' Transformation

Summary

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Full Measure After Hours: El Salvador's Remarkable ‘Tough on Crime’ Transformation

Host: Sharyl Attkisson
Guest: René Merino Monroy, Defense Minister and Head of the Military, El Salvador
Date: September 4, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Sharyl Attkisson reports from El Salvador, exploring the country's seismic reduction in violent crime under President Nayib Bukele’s administration—a once murder-plagued nation now considered the safest in the Western hemisphere. Attkisson presents an in-depth interview with Defense Minister René Merino Monroy, detailing the evolution of El Salvador’s security policy, its social impact, and the global ramifications and controversies surrounding their approach.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Background: From “Murder Capital” to “Safest Country”

• Historical context: El Salvador suffered decades of civil war and dominance by violent gangs, particularly MS-13 and Barrio 18.
• Election of Nayib Bukele (2019) marked a pivotal change: At 37, he became the youngest president in the Western Hemisphere and led a populist movement promising to reclaim the country from gangs.
• Unprecedented crackdown: Approximately 87,000 suspected gang members arrested—an enormous figure for a country the size of Massachusetts.
• Dramatic drop in crime:
  • 2015: 6,656 homicides, over 106 per 100,000 residents.
  • 2025 projection: Fewer than 1 per 100,000 residents (potentially only 3 murders by mid-year).

[00:48 – 04:23]

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Life Before Bukele: Living in Fear and Paralysis

[05:44] Attkisson: "Can you give an example of what life was like? Could you go to the neighborhood grocery store and shop?"

[05:57] Monroy:

• "No, no, it was impossible... there are some places that the MS-13 controlled. In front... the Barrio 18 gangs. For people it was impossible to move from one place to another... if you wanted to go to school, it was impossible."
• Daily life was fragmented, marked by fear; young people couldn’t attend school, go out at night, or even move freely between neighborhoods.

The Generational Trauma of Violence

[06:59] Monroy:

• Recalls growing up during the 1969 war with Honduras and the subsequent civil war: "As a young man... impossible to live freely here. I had to decide to go with the guerrillas or with the army. So I decide for the right side."
• Current youth enjoy freedoms never previously possible: "The young guys right now... are lucky because they can enjoy El Salvador, this beautiful country."

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Eradication of Gangs and National Security Strategy

[08:45] Attkisson: "Would you say that you have MS-13 under control or eradicated?"

[08:50] Monroy:

• "This is the serious state to eradicate the gangs... they don't have any more the control of the country. There are some guys only free right now but we are looking for those guys... the main objective is to eradicate those guys."
• Acknowledges some remnants remain but claims organizational control has been completely dismantled.

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International Interest & Lessons for Other Nations

[09:32] Attkisson: "Have you heard from other countries? Do you think lessons can be learned from El Salvador’s approach?"

[09:39] Monroy:

• "There are many countries who want to have our example... For example, Ecuador, Dominican Republic, Argentina, even some Mexicans say, 'We want to have a president like Mr. Bukele.'"
• Central message: Willpower is key. "If you have a good leader... you can do everything. Our country is small, we don’t have many resources. However, we have the will."

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Human Rights Concerns and Criticisms

[12:17] Attkisson: "There seems to be broad agreement that things are radically safer. However, there are criticisms... human rights violations, people imprisoned without proper hearings. Is that happening?"

[12:35] Monroy:

• Denies systemic abuse: "If we were violating human rights, people would hate us. It’s totally the contrary... some people benefited from the gangs and that’s why they are critical... We respect the law."
• Asserts due process exists, but mass arrests strained the system.

[15:35] Attkisson: "Some people in jail say they haven’t been told what they’re charged with and it’s taking too long, maybe years."

[15:50] Monroy:

• Admits logistical challenges. “We have in jail more than 87,000 guys... How much time do you need for that? In the past, we had just 72 hours to present charges... it was impossible.”
• Law was amended by Congress to allow more time due to the unprecedented scale.

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U.S.-El Salvador Relations and Security Cooperation

[17:29] Attkisson: "What does it mean that the United States sent some prisoners here?"

[17:49] Monroy:

• Highlights deepening U.S.–El Salvador cooperation against transnational crime:
  "Mr. President Trump decided to talk with President Bukele because you have Salvadorian gang members there... we are working together. Maybe that’s why he decided to send the bad guys to this prison."

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Quantifying the Transformation: Crime Statistics

• Pre-crackdown: 48–50 murders per day; 4,000 homicides annually.
• 2019: Homicide rate 37 per 100,000.
• Last year: 1.9 per 100,000.
• Current (2025 projection): "Right now, we have just one homicide in six months."
  [18:48 – 20:33]

[19:40] Monroy:

• "You can see the children playing freely. It was impossible in the past. We are competing around the world, trying to be the safest country... we are right now the safest country in the Western hemisphere."

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Leadership and Personal Commitment

[20:33] Attkisson: "Is there anything else you want to say?"

[20:36] Monroy:

• Praises Bukele's resolve: "We are happy with Mr. President as a citizen... he had the courage to face this problem... I have been supporting him in every single decision... No matter if the decisions are hard, difficult... our country needs a politician like him."

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Media Narratives and Popular Support

[21:31] Attkisson:

• Discusses Western media bias against Bukele and other populist leaders, drawing parallels to Donald Trump:
  "If you hear anything in the media reporting on El Salvador or the president, it will typically be negative... The people in El Salvador love Bukele and support what he’s doing."
• Notes Bukele's continued >90% approval rating (the highest in the world), and the recent change allowing him to run for another term in 2027.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Monroy on transformation:
  "Everything has been changing because people are now happy and they want to live like this, like we are living right now." [04:33]
• On the past:
  "In the past, it was like a big prison or a hell because the gang members, they did what they wanted to do here." [04:33]
• On willpower:
  "If you want, you can do it... The key issue here is a good political leader. Our country is small, we don’t have many resources. However, we have the will." [09:39]
• On human rights criticisms:
  "If we were violating human rights, people would hate us. It’s totally the contrary... We respect the law." [12:35]
• On the new reality:
  "Right now... we have just one homicide in six months. You can see the children playing freely." [18:48]
• On leadership:
  "We are happy with Mr. President... he had the courage to face this problem." [20:36]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:48–04:23] — Background and historic context
• [04:27–07:42] — Personal accounts and life before transformation
• [08:45–09:39] — State of gangs and elimination strategy
• [09:39–12:08] — International interest and lessons for other countries
• [12:17–17:29] — Addressing human rights criticisms and judicial process
• [17:49–18:48] — U.S.-El Salvador cooperation on security and prison transfers
• [18:52–20:33] — Impactful crime statistics and social impact
• [20:36–21:31] — Reflections on leadership, public sentiment, and political prospects

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Summary & Takeaways

Sharyl Attkisson’s interview provides a first-hand look at El Salvador's dramatic transformation, emphasizing the sharp reduction in crime due to highly aggressive, controversial, and widely popular security policies under President Bukele. Defense Minister Monroy asserts that respect for law and human rights remains, while also conceding to logistical strains on the justice system from the scale of arrests. International observers look to El Salvador as either a warning or a model for troubled regions, while the population appears almost unanimously in favor of Bukele’s approach, reflected in extraordinary approval ratings.

The episode exposes the contrast between local realities and international media coverage, and invites deeper reflection on the long-term consequences—social, political, and ethical—of such heavy-handed tactics in the fight against organized crime.

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Transcript

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[Cheryl Akisson]

Hi everybody, Cheryl Akisson here. Welcome to another edition of Full Measure. After Hours. Today, a report from El Salvador on how the most popular president in the world, when measured by domestic approval, got a grip on crime in the murder capital of the world and what we might learn from it. For about a decade on my TV program Full Measure, I've been covering the global populist movement marked by the election of leaders who are disdained by the political establishment on both the left and the right. Nowhere perhaps has this movement had a more dramatic impact than in the small Central American nation of El Salvador with the election of President Nayeb Bukele, then the youngest elected president in the Western Hemisphere. Bukele has led his country through a really stunning transformation under his popular tough on crime policies and other nations are definitely taking note. As it happened shortly after I returned from El Salvador investigating their tough on crime approach and the results. President Trump did something that felt very similar when he took control of Washington D.C. and put national Guard troops on the street. And like the example of Washington, El Salvador also saw dramatic results. As you will hear. This is my cover story on Full Measure as we debut our season 11 Sunday, September 7th as I report from El Salvador and in today's podcast, you're going to hear my interview with El Salvador's Defense Minister, the head of the military, Renee Marino Monroy. First, a little bit of important background. El Salvador historically has been plagued by civil war followed by brutal gang control by MS.13 and other gangs for decades. In 2019, Salvadorans took the step to reclaim their country by electing 37 year old Naya Bukele as president. He took the lead in a movement that arrested 87,000 suspected gang members and other criminals. Now this Is a country about the size of Massachusetts arresting 87,000 people. And as part of this, soldiers deployed alongside police. And still they patrol together like that today. You're going to see that in my report on Sunday. What difference has it made? Well, in 2015, before all of this, El Salvador, this tiny country, recorded 6,656 homicides, earning the title of murder capital of the world. But after this effort and the mass arrests, those numbers plummeted. Seven months into this year, instead of 6,600 murders, there had been about three. The homicide rate dropped from more than 106 per 100,000 people. That's how they track them, basically. Per 100,000. So more than 106 per 100,000 to now below 1 per 100,000 projected for 2025. They have gone from being the most dangerous country in the world by some measures to the safest country in the entire western hemisphere. So now you know why I was so interested in visiting and seeing for myself what the results truly are. And as part of that effort, I sat down with defense minister Marino Monroy.

You said you're 62 years old. You've been in the military your whole career.

[Renee Marino Monroy]

Yes.

[Cheryl Akisson]

How would you describe the changes you've seen in El Salvador since there's been this big crack in down on the gangs?

[Renee Marino Monroy]

There have been a huge change because in the past 10 years ago or 20 years ago, here is about it was like a big prison or a hell because the gangs member, they did what they wanted to do here in El Salvador. So the people were not able to move freely to live in peace. Since Mr. President took over El Salvador, everything was changing. And right now you can live here in El Salvador like any other common country. I think better than in other countries because we are enjoying the peace that another country they wanted to have this peace. So everything have been changing because the people are right now happy and they want to live in this like this, like we are living right now.

[Cheryl Akisson]

Before, as a young person or say you have a family before all of this. Can you give an example of what life was like? Could you go to the neighborhood grocery store and shop or you know, market? Like what was it like then?

[Renee Marino Monroy]

No, no, it was impossible to do that in the past. For example, here we have some communities surrounding this area and there are some places that the MS.13 they took control of this area. And in front of this area they are the Barrio D18 gangs member. So for people were impossible to to move from one place to another place because the the g members were Fighting each other. So if you want to go to the school for example it was impossible. So the teacher they were not able to to teach the the. The student because the gang member they they said what they wanted to have in this area. So for the young young people was impossible to to go to the party at night.

[Cheryl Akisson]

Did you feel that growing up here.

[Renee Marino Monroy]

Right now when you were young? I know when I when I for me was very difficult because when I was a young guy I was born in 1963 and we had like 1969 award with Honduras. So I, I. I was six years old. So then we started with the our internal world. So as a young man it was for me impossible to to live freely here. Because I had to decide if I I had to decide to go with the gorillas with the bad guys or with the army. So I decide for the correct for the right side.

[Cheryl Akisson]

Is that a choice most young men had to make?

[Renee Marino Monroy]

Yeah. So in. So I was living during the. My, My, my. How do you say? Who went to my. When I was younger?

[Cheryl Akisson]

Like adolescents.

[Renee Marino Monroy]

Yeah, like acting. So I I was in the army. And then when the when. When we finish the the war we start with the the guns problems. So for for example, for the guy who were were born during the the guns they have not enjoyed the the free the freedom or the freedom of the our the life. So right now it's totally different. That is in my perspective or in my opinion the the Jones guy right now they are. They are lucky guys cuz they can enjoy El Salvador. This a beautiful country right now. They can enjoy it.

[Cheryl Akisson]

Would you say that you have MS.13 under control or eradicated?

[Renee Marino Monroy]

Yeah yeah. The this is the the serious state to eradicate the GANS members. So we have been successful right now because they don't have any more the control of the country. There are some guys only free right now. But we are looking for those guys because we know that they will be. They will continue being a GUNS member. They know never will resign to this GUNS organization. So this is the main objective to eradicate those guys.

[Cheryl Akisson]

Do you think there are lessons that other countries can learn from El Salvador's approach? And have you heard from other countries?

[Renee Marino Monroy]

Yes, there are many countries who want to give to have our example. To know how we did everything. So every country has its own problems. But being for example in our region in Central America we have similar problem. But every government is different. So what is the experience here or the example here is that if you want you can do it. That is if you want you can do it because here it was impossible. Everybody said that. Even the international organization said that in El Salvador is impossible to defeat the bad guys. So the population were sad because they said it's impossible. But Mr. President said, no, we can do it because we have the will to. To defeat them. And that is the key issue here. Because if you have a good leader, good political leader, you can do everything. Because our country is a small country, we don't have many resources. However, we have the will. Mr. President have the will. And we right now are the example for other countries. For Ecuador, for example, for Dominican Republic, Argentina, also even some Mexicans. They say, we want to have a president like Mr. Bukele here because they understand. The people in other countries understand that if you can, if you want to do, you can do it.

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[Cheryl Akisson]

There seems to be broad agreement that things are radically safer.

[Renee Marino Monroy]

Say it again.

[Cheryl Akisson]

There seems to be broad agreement. Everybody agrees things are radically safer.

[Renee Marino Monroy]

Yes. Yeah.

[Cheryl Akisson]

However, there are criticisms.

[Renee Marino Monroy]

Yeah.

[Cheryl Akisson]

So some people say human rights have been violated. Some people say there are some people in prison who don't belong and they're not getting proper hearings. Maybe the hearing time is extended too long. Is that happening? And is that a tradeoff that you're accepting?

[Renee Marino Monroy]

No. Talking about the human right. So you can see here in the. In the area how the people like the militaries or like the. The police. Why if, if we were violations of the human right, the people will hate us. So it's totally the contrary. What, what happened with those critics. There are some. Some people who has had in the past benefit from the GANS member. So that's why, that's why they, they don't like to. To have this environment right now. So. And they say that we are violating the human right. But it's totally false. You can ask normal people here about that and they say, no, we need a regime. We want to continue doing this in this way. Because they feel, well right now and the issue Here was that in the past the, the NGOs or some bad people here, they protect the bad guys, they protect the human. The human right of the bad guy, but not the right people. So right now have been totally different. So. And even that we don't violate the human right of the bad guys, but there are many law here that the law determines how many rights have the bad guys. And we respect that right. So for me and for most of the people, we are doing the right thing. We respect the law. That was one of the. The requirement of Mr. President when we started this mission. So we respectful. The. The. The guy who are in prison. So Mr. President explained to the population how. How was the. The judiciary system here. And he's. He said, for example, if. If the police captured you, the police captured you because they. They think you make a mistake or make a crime. So but you. You have to go to the court in order to prove that you are innocent or guilty. So during this time you had to be in jail. So. And then the judicial resistance will determine if you are guilty or.

[Cheryl Akisson]

That was one of the criticisms we heard. This is the second one I'll ask. Some people in jail say they haven't been told what they're charged with and it's taking too long, maybe years. They don't understand.

[Renee Marino Monroy]

Our problem is very particular. It's not like a normal problem that you have in other countries because here we have a. Can you imagine we have in jail 7, 87 more than 87,000 guys. They made many crimes. So how many. How much time you need for solve this problem? So in the past, one of the success of the regime was that in the past we as authority we have just 72 hours for present the charges. The charges. So. And there are many guys. So it was impossible.

[Cheryl Akisson]

You don't have the infrastructure to do that.

[Renee Marino Monroy]

Also the corruption of the judicial system. So it was impossible because we captured the guy 72 hours they were frail against and they continuing making crimes. So it was necessary to do an amendment of our law in order to have the time, the necessary time to present the charge of those guys. So it's not because we want to violate anything, but everything is legal because they were to the.

[Cheryl Akisson]

Congress.

[Renee Marino Monroy]

The Congress request of the change and it was approved.

[Cheryl Akisson]

What do you think it says or what comment does it make that the United States sent some prisoners here. That shows some kind of good relationship between America and El Salvador, I suppose. But it also shows a trust on the part of the President Trump and your president. What are your thoughts about that because.

[Renee Marino Monroy]

I think Mr. President had done a very good job in talking about the security. We have the, I think the best prison around the world because it's very safe and very clean. It's impossible for a guy to, to live there. So I think Mr. President Trump, he, he decided to, to talk with the President Bukele because you have a Salvadorian gangs member there. And in, in this way, we, we are talking about transnational crime or transnational terrorism. So we are working together. Yeah. That's why maybe he decided to send the bad guys to this prison.

[Cheryl Akisson]

And how many, how many murders you've had in the past year or months?

[Renee Marino Monroy]

So we have in the past 48, 50 homicide daily. Yeah. And in a year we have 4,000 homicides in a year. And the ratio for every 100,000 habitants, it was 58, for example, in 2019 it was 37. And the last year we got 1.9. 1.9. And right now we are, I think will be the. Almost the half. Right now we have less homicide in comparison with the, the last year. In the same period we have just, we have 41 homicide in six months. And for the, in this moment, we have just one homicide. So with that, the people is free here. You can see the children playing freely. It was impossible in the past. We are competing around the world, trying to be the safest country around the world. We are right now the safest country in the western hemisphere. And with the, the radio that we have right now, we will be. We will finish this year. Very, very good. Yeah, thank you.

[Cheryl Akisson]

Is there anything else you want to say?

[Renee Marino Monroy]

No, just that we are happy with Mr. President as a citizen, as a normal citizen, because he had the chorus of face this problem. And when I, when I met him for the first time, he asked me if I was. If I were. Decide to fight seriously, the GAS member. And I said yes. And he said good. And I have been supporting him in every single decision that he made. No matter if the decisions are hard, difficult. But I think that our country needs a politician like him.

[Cheryl Akisson]

What I think is very interesting, you will typically hear, if you hear anything in the media reporting on all of this or on El Salvador or the President, it will typically be negative. The media tends to treat Bukele much the same way the media treats President Trump and other populist leaders around the world. It's hard to get a balanced view, let alone hear anything potentially positive about what they're doing. But rest assured, the people in El Salvador love Bukele and support what he's doing. After six years in office, President Bukele enjoys approval ratings above 90%, which gives him the highest domestic approval of any head of state in the world. And just about a month ago, El Salvador's legislature lifted the constitutional ban on the president there serving consecutive terms, which will allow Bukele to run again in 2027, when he will only be 45 years old. To see this story and also hear from critics, yes, there are critics who are against what the president is doing, even as they acknowledge the good results in terms of safety and crime. You'll hear from them. This is all going to be Sunday, September 7th on full measure. To find out how to watch on a station near you, you can go to cheryl Atkison.com and click the Full Measure tab for a list of stations and times. If that's not convenient, there are a couple of other ways you can watch around 11 o' clock on Sundays, 11am Eastern Time, you can go to Fullmeasure News and watch the TV program there, and also watch replays later of that program or any other one of our broadcasts by going to our YouTube channel. So go to YouTube and search for Full Measure with Cheryl Eckeson. I'm really proud and delighted and honored that we are coming back for season 11 of Full Measure, having finished season 10 with our biggest audience ever. Well, you keep hearing about maybe other news organizations and TV programs declining in viewership, maybe getting canceled, having trouble staying afloat or attracting enough attention. The opposite is going on at Full Measure. Our viewership is stronger than ever and continues to grow and we hope to continue to expand it on this season 11. I hope you enjoyed this podcast and that if you did, you'll leave us a great review. Consider sharing it with your friends and subscribing. Consider checking out my latest book, follow the How Big Pharma Misleads, Obscures and Prevails. And as always, go to the Cheryl Akison store by visiting cherylakkisson.com and clicking the Store tab for some fun products designed just for people like you. Proceeds from the store as well as from the book go to independent reporting causes. And if you do decide to check out the store, you will find some intriguing slogans and that I'm sure you'll appreciate, such as I need to find some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones came true. And do your own research, make up your own mind, think for yourself.