Full Measure After Hours: El Salvador's Remarkable ‘Tough on Crime’ Transformation

Host: Sharyl Attkisson
Guest: René Merino Monroy, Defense Minister and Head of the Military, El Salvador
Date: September 4, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Sharyl Attkisson reports from El Salvador, exploring the country's seismic reduction in violent crime under President Nayib Bukele’s administration—a once murder-plagued nation now considered the safest in the Western hemisphere. Attkisson presents an in-depth interview with Defense Minister René Merino Monroy, detailing the evolution of El Salvador’s security policy, its social impact, and the global ramifications and controversies surrounding their approach.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Background: From “Murder Capital” to “Safest Country”

• Historical context: El Salvador suffered decades of civil war and dominance by violent gangs, particularly MS-13 and Barrio 18.
• Election of Nayib Bukele (2019) marked a pivotal change: At 37, he became the youngest president in the Western Hemisphere and led a populist movement promising to reclaim the country from gangs.
• Unprecedented crackdown: Approximately 87,000 suspected gang members arrested—an enormous figure for a country the size of Massachusetts.
• Dramatic drop in crime:
  • 2015: 6,656 homicides, over 106 per 100,000 residents.
  • 2025 projection: Fewer than 1 per 100,000 residents (potentially only 3 murders by mid-year).

[00:48 – 04:23]

Life Before Bukele: Living in Fear and Paralysis

[05:44] Attkisson: "Can you give an example of what life was like? Could you go to the neighborhood grocery store and shop?"

[05:57] Monroy:

• "No, no, it was impossible... there are some places that the MS-13 controlled. In front... the Barrio 18 gangs. For people it was impossible to move from one place to another... if you wanted to go to school, it was impossible."
• Daily life was fragmented, marked by fear; young people couldn’t attend school, go out at night, or even move freely between neighborhoods.

The Generational Trauma of Violence

[06:59] Monroy:

• Recalls growing up during the 1969 war with Honduras and the subsequent civil war: "As a young man... impossible to live freely here. I had to decide to go with the guerrillas or with the army. So I decide for the right side."
• Current youth enjoy freedoms never previously possible: "The young guys right now... are lucky because they can enjoy El Salvador, this beautiful country."

Eradication of Gangs and National Security Strategy

[08:45] Attkisson: "Would you say that you have MS-13 under control or eradicated?"

[08:50] Monroy:

• "This is the serious state to eradicate the gangs... they don't have any more the control of the country. There are some guys only free right now but we are looking for those guys... the main objective is to eradicate those guys."
• Acknowledges some remnants remain but claims organizational control has been completely dismantled.

International Interest & Lessons for Other Nations

[09:32] Attkisson: "Have you heard from other countries? Do you think lessons can be learned from El Salvador’s approach?"

[09:39] Monroy:

• "There are many countries who want to have our example... For example, Ecuador, Dominican Republic, Argentina, even some Mexicans say, 'We want to have a president like Mr. Bukele.'"
• Central message: Willpower is key. "If you have a good leader... you can do everything. Our country is small, we don’t have many resources. However, we have the will."

Human Rights Concerns and Criticisms

[12:17] Attkisson: "There seems to be broad agreement that things are radically safer. However, there are criticisms... human rights violations, people imprisoned without proper hearings. Is that happening?"

[12:35] Monroy:

• Denies systemic abuse: "If we were violating human rights, people would hate us. It’s totally the contrary... some people benefited from the gangs and that’s why they are critical... We respect the law."
• Asserts due process exists, but mass arrests strained the system.

[15:35] Attkisson: "Some people in jail say they haven’t been told what they’re charged with and it’s taking too long, maybe years."

[15:50] Monroy:

• Admits logistical challenges. “We have in jail more than 87,000 guys... How much time do you need for that? In the past, we had just 72 hours to present charges... it was impossible.”
• Law was amended by Congress to allow more time due to the unprecedented scale.

U.S.-El Salvador Relations and Security Cooperation

[17:29] Attkisson: "What does it mean that the United States sent some prisoners here?"

[17:49] Monroy:

• Highlights deepening U.S.–El Salvador cooperation against transnational crime:
  "Mr. President Trump decided to talk with President Bukele because you have Salvadorian gang members there... we are working together. Maybe that’s why he decided to send the bad guys to this prison."

Quantifying the Transformation: Crime Statistics

• Pre-crackdown: 48–50 murders per day; 4,000 homicides annually.
• 2019: Homicide rate 37 per 100,000.
• Last year: 1.9 per 100,000.
• Current (2025 projection): "Right now, we have just one homicide in six months."
  [18:48 – 20:33]

[19:40] Monroy:

• "You can see the children playing freely. It was impossible in the past. We are competing around the world, trying to be the safest country... we are right now the safest country in the Western hemisphere."

Leadership and Personal Commitment

[20:33] Attkisson: "Is there anything else you want to say?"

[20:36] Monroy:

• Praises Bukele's resolve: "We are happy with Mr. President as a citizen... he had the courage to face this problem... I have been supporting him in every single decision... No matter if the decisions are hard, difficult... our country needs a politician like him."

Media Narratives and Popular Support

[21:31] Attkisson:

• Discusses Western media bias against Bukele and other populist leaders, drawing parallels to Donald Trump:
  "If you hear anything in the media reporting on El Salvador or the president, it will typically be negative... The people in El Salvador love Bukele and support what he’s doing."
• Notes Bukele's continued >90% approval rating (the highest in the world), and the recent change allowing him to run for another term in 2027.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Monroy on transformation:
  "Everything has been changing because people are now happy and they want to live like this, like we are living right now." [04:33]
• On the past:
  "In the past, it was like a big prison or a hell because the gang members, they did what they wanted to do here." [04:33]
• On willpower:
  "If you want, you can do it... The key issue here is a good political leader. Our country is small, we don’t have many resources. However, we have the will." [09:39]
• On human rights criticisms:
  "If we were violating human rights, people would hate us. It’s totally the contrary... We respect the law." [12:35]
• On the new reality:
  "Right now... we have just one homicide in six months. You can see the children playing freely." [18:48]
• On leadership:
  "We are happy with Mr. President... he had the courage to face this problem." [20:36]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:48–04:23] — Background and historic context
• [04:27–07:42] — Personal accounts and life before transformation
• [08:45–09:39] — State of gangs and elimination strategy
• [09:39–12:08] — International interest and lessons for other countries
• [12:17–17:29] — Addressing human rights criticisms and judicial process
• [17:49–18:48] — U.S.-El Salvador cooperation on security and prison transfers
• [18:52–20:33] — Impactful crime statistics and social impact
• [20:36–21:31] — Reflections on leadership, public sentiment, and political prospects

Summary & Takeaways

Sharyl Attkisson’s interview provides a first-hand look at El Salvador's dramatic transformation, emphasizing the sharp reduction in crime due to highly aggressive, controversial, and widely popular security policies under President Bukele. Defense Minister Monroy asserts that respect for law and human rights remains, while also conceding to logistical strains on the justice system from the scale of arrests. International observers look to El Salvador as either a warning or a model for troubled regions, while the population appears almost unanimously in favor of Bukele’s approach, reflected in extraordinary approval ratings.

The episode exposes the contrast between local realities and international media coverage, and invites deeper reflection on the long-term consequences—social, political, and ethical—of such heavy-handed tactics in the fight against organized crime.