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- [00:00]
A
What do you think makes the perfect snack?
- [00:02]
B
Hmm. It's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.
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A
Could you be more specific?
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B
When it's cravenient. Okay, like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at a.m. p.m. Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at a.m. p.m.
- [00:16]
A
I'm seeing a pattern here.
- [00:18]
B
Well, yeah, we're talking about what I.
- [00:19]
A
Crave, which is anything from AM pm.
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B
What more could you want? Stop by AM PM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravenience AM PM Too much. Good stuff.
- [00:30]
C
Foreign.
- [00:35]
A
Hi everybody. Cheryl Akison here. Welcome to another edition of Full Measure After Hours. Today, there's a growing movement to remove fluoride from public drinking water. It's gaining steam, fueled by modern research and safety concerns. I'll be speaking with Surgeon General Dr. Joseph Ladapo of Florida, which has now banned water fluoridation. Water fluoridation dates back to the 1940s, and I learned a lot researching this story, actually first reporting on fluoride a couple of years ago. The chemicals used are potent toxins that, believe it or not, come from industry waste like aluminum and phosphate fertilizer plants. Factories once released the waste into the air and water. But when health concerns put that to a halt and the industry began selling the toxic waste as fluoride components to add to public water, to figure out how to dispose of the toxins but also make money at it. There's a long history linking fluoride to health problems, dismissed as a conspiracy theory for decades by propagandists, which was picked up uncritically by many in the media. Well, things have flipped a little bit. The overwhelming scientific data over the years has become impossible to ignore. Adding to the fire, a judge's order for the EPA to address added fluoride as a toxic substance for the first time and mitigate what the court has found is an unreasonable risk to children's iq. In January, Melbourne, Florida became among the first cities in Florida to stop fluoridating its water supply. I visit that city as part of my report on the controversies Sunday on full measure. November 16th. Not long after Melbourne made its move, the whole state of Florida banned water fluoridation. In today's podcast, I speak with Florida Surgeon General Dr. Joseph Latipo.
- [02:39]
D
If you had a Before we dive in, finish this sentence in just a line or so, what do you think it is that many people don't know about fluoride?
- [02:50]
C
I think it's just how, how harmful it can be in addition to whatever protective effects it has on teeth, just how harmful it can be. It is a poison. And folks don't know that. Most folks don't know that.
- [03:03]
D
And when did you come to learn? You know, is this something you have been thinking about for decades and new as a doctor or is this something you've learned about more recently?
- [03:13]
C
You know, it is a good example of why it's, it's, it's important to pick a good partner. And, and you know, people say behind, you know, every great man there's a great woman and behind every great woman there's a great man. I think there's so much truth to that. So my wife was actually the first person years ago to, to tell me she was concerned about us using fluoride for our kids. And you know, my kids now are 12, 8 and 6. But a few years ago, five years ago, they were smaller. You know, they were, they were much younger. And we were in that period of time too where, you know, for many families, they move from, say, pardon me, fluoride free toothpaste to, okay, we're going to start using a little bit of fluoride and the toothpaste for Junior and we making that, making that transition. And Brianna had concerns about it and you know, and I looked a little bit into it. I was very busy at the time. I think it was actually probably around the time I was starting this job in 2021. I looked a little bit into it and I, I wasn't able to get anywhere. I kind of looked into it, but I, I just really couldn't find anything that, that pushed me one way or the other. So we sort of split the difference. And you know, we had both types of toothpaste in our houses. And you know, I don't remember whether we were using one like for, in the morning and another in the evening. And, but she had this concern about it and she continued to express it and eventually, eventually all we had was she was like, honey, I don't want us to use this for the boys. And so, so, so that was, that's all we, we had for them. And you know, and I'm like, like very busy. They, we take them to the dentist every six months. So I was like, all right, I'll just, you know, well, I, I can't deal with this or engage in this right now. And of course, one of the, one of the, you know, just one of the sinister things about the, the current state of things is how, how Difficult it is to actually get accurate information about scientifically controversial issues. Like, literally, if you were an alien and you just arrived here and you googled COVID 19 vaccine, you know, all these headlines about, you know, how safe it is and how effective it is, that's all you'd see. And heaven knows, that's not the truth. Like, on the ground, the. The fact that it's just widely recognized by many people and still not enough by many people, how terrible, terrible these products are. You can't get that from a surface investigation. And that was the case with fluoride, too. And it's. That's getting better, thanks, thankfully, to the waves that were made in Colorado, the things we've done in the state, the work that other people have done. But, you know, that was my. The issue. I looked a little bit. I wasn't able to dive deeper, and it seemed like, you know, I'm not sure that there's a problem here. And then there was this federal ruling. This judge, this federal judge with this case that I think Michael Conant had been. Had been leading for years, finally reached the conclusion that, hey, epa, you need to exercise your regulatory authority in this area. You're not doing enough with water fluoridation. The risks or even the, you know, I don't remember exactly how he put it, but basically it was something to the effect of even the appearance of risk or, you know, the. What could be reasonably interpreted as being a real risk just has not been met with an equal level of. Of exercise of your authority. So you need to do that. And that was. That was basically his ruling. And, and at that point, I just realized, okay, I can't just sit on the sidelines. Here we have this federal judge who's made a ruling, and here I am still using fluoridated toothpaste, and I just don't. I'm not well enough informed about this. So that led me to look more.
- [07:40]
D
What would you say is the most compelling piece of evidence you saw that turned you around on fluoride and the possible risks.
- [07:47]
C
So I would say, because it's very tough and people who do research, and one of, One of the advantages that I've had is that I actually came from background research. I took care of patients at UCLA and nyu, but I also did a lot of research. I had a. I had a handful of NIH grants. So I've really been. Been, you know, sort of. I've had my development, my, My, My formation in research. And, and, you know, when you look at the studies individually, some of them have very good study designs, but a lot of them have, have weaknesses because we're not talking about randomized clinical trials here. We're talking about study designs that are more vulnerable to bias than the randomized clinical trials. However, still, when looking at them, what is striking is that the, the vast majority line up on this, this side of fluoride potentially being harmful. And the additional piece of information is that not only do you have congruence across many, many studies in different countries, but there's also a presence of a dose response relationship. And that is, you know, you always have to pay attention when you, you see that.
- [09:11]
D
Can you explain in really simple terms what a dose response relationship means when it comes to fluoride?
- [09:16]
C
Absolutely. So let's say if we were doing a randomized clinical trial and we randomized some families to use to drinking fluoridated water and other families to drinking fluoride free water, and you know, we, we showed up five years later and we know, did some tests on their kids, that would be a great study design that does not exist. Not really feasible or practical. However, with observational studies, we sort of have the same thing, except we're not randomizing people. We're looking at people who live in areas where say they fluoridate water or they have higher levels of background fluoride in water, and people who live in areas that don't fluoridate water, who, or have lower levels. And in that case what you see is that when the levels are lower, these harms to like the intelligence as measured by iq, these harms to behavior, stuff like, you know, does the kid have attention deficit hyper, hyperactivity disorder? Does the kid have problems with just focusing schoolwork, things like that. When the, when the doses of fluoride are lower, you have less of that and as the doses fluoride increase, you have more of that. And that's, that's, you do not, I mean, you have to, you gotta be, you have to be crazy to not like pay attention to that. I mean, that's very compelling evidence outside of a clinical trial.
- [10:48]
D
The other side will point to a lot of studies and say what you said, there are weaknesses of them. But then go further and say really none of them are any good or replicable the ones that make these claims. And that there are many studies on the other side saying that there is no risk that comes with fluoride.
- [11:06]
C
Yeah. So the fact is, I know it's, it's the fervid commitment to defending, you know, fluoride is, it's not admirable, actually. It's actually kind of. It's actually sad. But the fact is most. Yes, there are some studies that don't show a relationship. And that's true. And this is why it's important to be able to exercise judgment and to have good judgment. And the majority of studies do show a relationship. The relationship happens to be a dose response relationship. It is poor judgment to ignore that. People can do it like the American Dental Association. They can do that. But it is poor judgment. It's, you know, it would be akin to. I'm trying to think of some other, you know, scenario where someone might, might, might do it. But. But it's. It's poor judgment. It's just poor.
- [12:05]
D
Can you tell us what Florida has done in terms of fluoride added to the water?
- [12:09]
C
Yeah. So most Floridians, until legislation that the governor signed, Governor DeSantis signed, you know, two months ago or so, and, and was part of Commissioner Wilton Simpson's Florida agriculture bill, Most Floridians consumed fluoridated water in Florida. And through the efforts of multiple people, including the work I did with Dr. Ashley Mallon at the University of Florida, to provide some education to county commissioners in different counties in different cities and to answer questions, to be a resource. And frankly, I also have to some, a substantial part of the credit also goes to the county commissioners. It was very interesting to the experience of really going around the state because you saw, you know, you saw these different, you know, these different dynamics. You had some county commissioners and groups that were afraid because they don't want to go against the American Dental association. They don't want to go against the, you know, the American Medical association in the face of data, they don't want to do that. And they would back off. And you saw others who, despite not wanting to go against these authoritative bodies, didn't want to. Didn't want to. You just could not deny or could not just ignore the information that was in front of them. So we got to see all those dynamics and the voting and all that. And so cities and counties, even before legislation was signed, many of them moved to remove fluoride. Miami Dade county was the biggest one. Their commissioner, Roberto Gonzalez, just a great guy. His efforts moved people. I'll just tell you real briefly. One of the most beautiful things there was that it was that, you know, it's Miami dates, everything's fancier. And, you know, the meetings are the meeting halls fancier. Everything's fancier. Lots of cameras, all this crazy stuff. And, and and, and Commissioner Roberto Gonzalez, he, he basically was able to convince enough people, both Republicans and Democrats to vote to remove it. Their, their mayor then overrode their mayor vetoed the commissioners and the commissioners came back to vote again and they were able to be successful by margin of one vote. And that one vote, interestingly enough, I don't want to call the guy out, but he was, he's a Democrat and, and you, you know, and I could see him in the meeting that we were in struggling over the decision and it was just a beautiful thing that he made that change and voted to remove it with the other commissioners. So we've so many cities and counties have made individual decisions to remove it and now at the state level it's gotta be gone for everyone.
- [15:22]
A
Hey, this is Sarah. Look, I'm standing out front of a.m. p.m. Right now and well, you're sweet and all, but I found something more fulfilling, even kind of cheesy, but I like it. Sure you met some of my dietary needs, but they've just got it all, so farewell.
- [15:36]
D
Oatmeal.
- [15:37]
A
So long you strange soggy.
- [15:40]
B
Break up with bland breakfasts and taste AMPM's bacon, egg and cheese biscuits made with cage free eggs, smoked bacon and melty cheese on a buttery biscuit. Am P M Too much. Good stuff.
- [15:52]
D
So as we sit here today, it is not legal for cities and counties in Florida to add fluoride to the water.
- [15:59]
C
It is illegal. That's correct. It is illegal for cities and counties to add fluoride to water.
- [16:04]
D
Currently one of the big arguments the dental, some of the dental experts make is, has to do with what will happen if cavities aren't prevented with fluoride in the drinking water. And they point to photographs of children with terrible infections in their teeth and their mouth that extends to their face and more children they say will be hospitalized and need dental treatments in emergency room and that sort of thing. Are you afraid that that will happen when we look five years down the road we're going to have a sicker population?
- [16:35]
C
Yeah, it's one of the strategies they use. So what they won't tell you is that, you know, even, even before any of these efforts in Florida, something like a third, maybe a quarter of Floridians lived in areas without fluoridated water and their teeth are not falling out over there. So this whole idea that, you know, the floor is just going to come out from underneath this in terms of dental health is not supported by any data. There's no data to support that. None Whatsoever. There's no data in Florida to support that. There's no data from studies that have been done to support that. Dental health is very important. And one of the things that we're doing and I think is very important is really to promote education about dental health, I will tell you, is just as a, as a, you know, as a, as a sort of personal anecdote, if you will. So I was born in Nigeria. My parents. My parents moved here when I was about five years old and. And they, you know, they were really into school, but. But not a lot of dental education. So unfortunately, I developed a mouth full of cavities, by the way, drinking fluoridated water, I'm sure, in Georgia and Louisiana. But I developed a mouth of full. Full of cavities, unfortunately. And the bridge, it was all about education. Like, if, If I, if my parents had had known and taught me to floss and, you know, Joe, you shouldn't have snacks at night and then go to bed, you know, with like all the sugar in your mouth or carbohydrates or whatever. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have a ton of. Ton of cavities. And there are a lot of families out there that don't have that education. So that's something we're working on to boost. But these concerns, they're completely bunk. It's. It's totally bogus. Like, nothing like that is going to happen. The fluoride and water is not the thing that's going to make the difference between good dental health in Florida and bad dental health in Florida.
- [18:35]
D
What do you see on the horizon in the rest of the country as other states and municipalities are looking at this issue? And is there a federal effort? I mean, I know the EPA has been ordered to take a look, but I don't think they've done anything. And there may be some. Some conflict among the agencies up there as to what should be done. So what do you see on the horizon?
- [18:54]
C
Yeah. Yeah. Well, so. So I think we need to keep our pedal to the metal because the American Dental association, other groups, they are. They. I hate the word misinformation, by the way. I just have a reaction to it. But they are spouting a lot of nonsense still. And there was a lot of attention on the issue when we were working on it nationally. There was a lot of attention on it. And now, you know, the battle was won for now, but. And there's not as much of a counter voice, so we definitely need to keep the pedal to the metal. Other states Leaders in those states should absolutely be pushing forward with it. I suspect those efforts are underway. I have not heard much yet, but I suspect that's underway and that needs to keep happening at the federal level. I'm not sure what's happening there because my understanding is that the EPA has actually appealed the ruling of this federal judge to regulate. So I'm not sure what's happening there. I would not have expected that the EPA would have done that. I would expect that they would regulate this, you know, this additive in water. So hopefully that will resolve itself. I'm hopeful that that will resolve itself. But I do anticipate that eventually, on a nationwide level, the APA is not going to be permitting municipalities to add fluoride. It's just, when you look at the totality of the evidence, it's just. It's really insane to continue doing it. It's just far too risky. In populations that are, you know, children, pregnant women, that we. We hold to a higher level of.
- [20:38]
D
Safety, dental groups ideally are looking out for our dental health and if you want to be cynical, would make more money. If what they say is true, people aren't using fluoride and there's worse dental health. More people have to go to the dentist and get work. What do you think is the motivation of dental groups who are saying we have to keep the fluoride?
- [20:59]
C
Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. So we have this indoctrination syndrome in healthcare. And I actually, I wish that they were financially motivated because it's almost easier to work with that. But instead the impression I have is that it, it's. It's really more of a. Of a doctrine. It's really more of a. Almost a. A religious, fervent belief system. In medicine, we have the same things. For example, you could. There are analogous statements one could make about vaccinations, for example, where there's just. People just believe in it. And it transcends financial interests, it transcends common sense, it transcends literally the evidence that is in front of them. It's just this, this, this doctrine, this, this indoctrination and, and this, this. This belief system. And my impression is that that's a component of what's happening. Almost as if, you know, I made a. I made a statement once at one of these, these, these. I think it was a press conference with Governor DeSantis and I. And I described the, the way the dental community, or members of the dental community, not all of them, but many members of the dental community hold on to fluoridation, which like Linus and you know, in, in Charlie Brown and how he holds onto his blanket, it, it really is a similar dynamic and it's just like they're just holding on to it and, and, and that's where that, that is at least a component. I will tell you that the impression I get from the American Dental association is that they are also very concerned about their reputation and their concern that yielding ground on some of these things, some of these practices that they've encouraged for a long time. You know, I mentioned amalgam use, which by the way everyone is mostly mercury. It's actually not so much silver, it's mostly mercury. And yes, yet I'm talking about the same mercury that's a poison. But the way they, they hold on to this, my impression is that, that they're, they're also sort of trying to do reputation protection. But it's sick. You got to take care of people.
- [23:29]
A
For more on this story and to hear what fluoride supporters have to say, you can watch full measure Sunday, November 16th. To find out how, go to cherylakkeson.com and click the Full Measure tab to find a station in time near you. You could also choose instead to go to Fullmeasure News around 11:00 Eastern Time Sunday morning and watch the program live. Or go to FullMeasure News most anytime thereafter and see a replay. You can also, if it's easier for you, go to our unadvertised YouTube channel full measure with Cheryl Akisson and watch not only this program after it posts after Sunday, November 16, but you can watch replays of our other programs. We have so much unique reporting on very important subjects. Good old fashioned news reporting that you don't see enough of anymore. I hope you enjoyed today's podcast and that you'll consider leaving us a fantastic review, sharing this with your friends and subscribing. And check out my other podcast, the Cheryl Achison Podcast. If you haven't already had a chance to read my latest bestseller for Follow the Science How Big Pharma Misleads, Obscures, and Prevails. There's no time like the present. Proceeds support independent reporting causes. The same goes for sales. From my website, go to Cheryl Akisson.com and click the Store tab for some exciting products with great slogans designed for independent thinkers like you, such as I need to find some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones came true. True. And do your own research. Make up your own mind. Think for yourself.