Full Measure After Hours: Ivermectin Over-the-Counter

Host: Sharyl Attkisson

Guest: Dr. Mary Talley Bowden

Release Date: October 2, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores the ongoing push to make Ivermectin available over the counter in the United States, set against the backdrop of the COVID-19 pandemic and controversy over prescribing alternative treatments. Dr. Mary Talley Bowden, an ENT and sleep medicine specialist from Houston, discusses her experiences during the pandemic, the backlash she faced for advocating early COVID treatments including Ivermectin, her legal and regulatory battles, and the broader medical and political implications for access to medications.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Dr. Bowden’s Background and COVID Experience

• Pre-pandemic Practice: Dr. Bowden ran a quiet solo ENT practice in Houston.
• COVID Shift: Her practice expanded rapidly due to access to quick COVID saliva tests (01:43–02:29, Dr. Bowden).
• Testing Scale: She estimates her clinic performed about 80,000 COVID tests over the course of the pandemic (02:29–02:31).

Early Treatment Philosophy and Shift to Ivermectin

• Initial Treatments: Early cases were managed with standard respiratory care, antibiotics for secondary infection, and steroids. Ivermectin was not initially on her radar; she was stymied from prescribing hydroxychloroquine due to state restrictions (02:31–03:33).
• Monoclonal Antibodies: Became known for providing monoclonal antibodies until government distribution restricted access, which led her to explore Ivermectin.

Safety Research on Ivermectin

• Independent Review: Dr. Bowden evaluated the safety by reviewing FDA and Merck data, noting a very high safety margin compared to common medications like Tylenol (03:33–04:46).

  "The LD50 of ivermectin is anywhere from 11 to 80 times higher than the dose that we're using to treat Covid....I couldn't find a single [overdose] study, whereas...for Tylenol, you'll find thousands of reports. So I knew it was safe, and then I started using it."
  — Dr. Bowden (03:35–04:46)

• Clinical Outcomes: Treated over 6,000 COVID patients, none of whom died if they received early treatment (04:46–05:31).

Observations on Vaccination and Outcomes

• Noted that vaccinated and unvaccinated patients fell ill at similar rates, challenging prevailing assumptions (05:31–06:53).

  "What I saw was the vaccinated outnumbered the unvaccinated and were just as sick."
  — Dr. Bowden (05:33)

Professional Repercussions for Dissent

• Pushback for Speaking Out: Faced suspension of hospital privileges, media backlash, and was reported to the medical board after publicly criticizing mandates and advocating for patient choice (06:53–09:40).

  "I held a press conference. I sued Methodists twice. Unfortunately, I lost both of those, but they reported me to the medical board....And I have been fighting that for almost four years now."
  — Dr. Bowden (07:58–09:40)

• Legal Battle Over Hospital Ivermectin Use: Attempted to provide Ivermectin to a dying patient in a Texas hospital, resulting in ongoing medical board issues.

Lawsuit Against the FDA and Propaganda Themes

• FDA Critique: Dr. Bowden and others sued the FDA for what she describes as “misinformation” discouraging Ivermectin for COVID, particularly the “You are not a horse” social media campaign (10:07–11:55).

  "The FDA's role is to approve medications and move on. They're not allowed to tell doctors how to use these medications....So they were stepping outside their lane."
  — Dr. Bowden (10:07) “That tweet went viral. It was their most successful tweet ever....They branded it as horse medicine. And it worked. It was very effective.”
  — Dr. Bowden (11:55)

• Lawsuit Outcome: Won the case, forcing the FDA to withdraw some communications. However, stigma persists at both institutional and pharmacy levels (13:10–13:56).

  "If I send a prescription to Walgreens for Ivermectin, there's probably a 75% chance they're not going to fill it. And that's four years later."
  — Dr. Bowden (13:56)

Campaign for Over-the-Counter Ivermectin

• Citizen Petition: American Frontline Doctors have filed a petition with the FDA to make Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine over-the-counter (14:22).
• Evidence Base: Claims more than 100 studies now support Ivermectin efficacy, especially when given early (14:59).

  "There are now 105 studies supporting the efficacy of Ivermectin for Covid."
  — Dr. Bowden (14:59) "Even when used late in the game...it helped anywhere from 30 to 40% decrease in intubation and mortality. And it's so safe and you can use it at incredibly high doses."
  — Dr. Bowden (15:40)

State-level Legislative Efforts

• State Laws: 17 states have proposed bills; 4 (Tennessee, Louisiana, Idaho, Arkansas) now allow over-the-counter sales, though pharmacists can still be a barrier (17:04–17:46).

Personal and Professional Lessons Learned

• Dr. Bowden urges open-mindedness in medicine and challenges the “dogma” that you can’t treat viruses early (17:53–18:44).

  "I encourage other doctors, maybe open your mind up a little bit, do a little of your own research....Even ivermectin can be used for other viruses. It has 20 mechanisms of action. It's anti-inflammatory....and it's super safe."
  — Dr. Bowden (17:53–18:44)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dr. Bowden, on being at the center of controversy:

  "I had cnn, Washington Post. I had people screaming at me from Australia. It was very hard because I'd never been in the media or anything like that before. But I decided to fight back." (07:58)

• On the FDA tweet:

  "That tweet went viral. It was their most successful tweet ever." (11:55)

• On hydroxychloroquine restrictions:

  "The Texas State Board of Pharmacy actually prohibited us from prescribing hydroxychloroquine. So I put that on the back burner, did the best I could using common sense." (02:45)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:43 – Dr. Bowden introduces her practice and initial COVID response
• 02:29 – Discussion of COVID-19 testing capacity
• 03:33 – Shift to monoclonal antibodies and then Ivermectin
• 03:35–04:46 – Dr. Bowden’s safety research on Ivermectin
• 05:31–06:53 – Observations around vaccination and breakthrough cases
• 06:53–09:40 – Professional fallout and legal challenges
• 10:07–11:55 – Lawsuit against the FDA and social media campaigns
• 13:56 – Current challenges with pharmacies and lingering stigma
• 14:22 – Citizen petition to the FDA for over-the-counter status
• 14:59–15:40 – Summary of Ivermectin efficacy studies
• 17:04–17:46 – Progress and challenges with state-level law
• 17:53–18:44 – Dr. Bowden’s takeaways for her profession

Conclusion

The episode provides an inside look at the turbulent journey of doctors who promoted off-label COVID treatments in the face of regulatory, institutional, and public resistance. Through Dr. Bowden’s story, Sharyl Attkisson highlights the intersection of science, politics, and patient care, illuminating ongoing efforts to change how medications like Ivermectin are accessed in the U.S.

Dr. Bowden’s advocacy, legal efforts, and reflections are a microcosm of broader debates over medical autonomy, government oversight, and the evolution of treatment protocols during a global health emergency. Listeners are left with an appreciation for the complexities of trying to correct public narrative and policy after a period of significant crisis and controversy.