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Full Measure After Hours
After Hours: Mexico Misfire: How Mexican Govt Guns are Fueling Cartel Violence
00:25:49
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- [00:00]
A
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B
Hi everybody, it's Cheryl Akisson. Welcome to another edition of Full Measure After Hours. Today, our investigation refutes the longstanding narrative that illegally sold US Guns are responsible for Mexico cartel violence. For years, the narrative has been pretty clear and pretty steady. It's that lax US Gun laws and American gun shops are supposedly flooding Mexico with illegal weapons, arming cartels and fueling the violence south of the border. That narrative is a key point that has long prompted advocates to push for stricter gun control, and Mexican officials too, have pointed fingers north to here in America. But today we expose some hard facts about Mexico gun violence that I think a lot of people are going to find startling, although the data has been there in black and white for more than a decade. In the episode of my TV show Full Measure, Sunday, October 26, John Dodson, a retired senior special agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, flips this whole narrative on its head. Dodson spent nearly 15 years tackling firearms trafficking along the Southwest border and learned a lot. He reveals that it is the US And Mexican governments who are major sources of guns that end up in criminal hands, not guns being illegally sold and trafficked. The US Government is unwittingly a large supplier of weapons to Mexico's killer cartels. So through a legal route, at least it starts out legal. The US Government legally sells these guns to Mexico and then once they reach Mexican government hands, the guns are diverted to violent cartels. You may recognize John Dotson's name because he's the one who blew the Whistle on the government's ill fated Fast and Furious debacle. In an interview he did with me for CBS news back in 2011, the government at the time tried desperately to stop my reporting, tried to stop the whistleblowing that John Dodson was doing, denied the fact that the Department of Justice under Attorney General Eric Holder and President Obama knew full well this was going on despite their denials and in fact, apparently were directing all of it. Ultimately, after months, the truth came out in the wash. The government had to admit that the evidence I presented and others was true. They promised to stop doing it, they apologized. And before we really got to the bottom of exactly why they were doing it and how high this information went, the Obama administration, actually President Obama declared executive privilege, I think, for the only time of his presidency to keep us from getting those White House records that would have told us more. So some things will probably forever remain a mystery about Fast and Furious. And I might add, that was not the only operation in which the US Was ordering its agents to facilitate the sale of weapons secretly to Mexico's drug cartels. It kind of gets forgotten as time has passed. But I uncovered numerous operations that were doing the same thing. Fast and Furious may have been just one of the biggest or the biggest, and certainly the one that got the most attention. And after I began reporting on it with John Dodson's help, Now when we're talking about legally sold guns to the Mexican government and how they're ending up in the hands of Mexico's cartels, here is John Dodson.
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C
Fast and Furious. My job was to hunt firearms, was to stop firearms trafficking to Mexico. So as part of that, I want to know. Okay, well, who's the top source? Dealer of firearms being recovered in Mexico? I used E trace the way I was taught to use it because it's never been a statistical engine. It's a lead generation system is what it is. Right. But ATF uses it for statistics when it benefits whatever agenda they're trying to push. Right. So I'm 2009, I go to, you know, Phoenix, and I'm part of Group 7 on the firearms trafficking strike force. Well, all these guns are being recovered in Mexico. They're all US source. Who's the top source? Dealer. Because that's where I want to go.
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A
Right.
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C
Plug in the data government of Mexico.
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D
When you first saw that, do you remember? Was that like a wow moment for you as well?
- [05:40]
C
Yeah, flabbergast.
- [05:41]
D
So you must have told everybody, including your supervisor. So they knew.
- [05:46]
C
Yes. I've been pounding this drum for what, almost 16 years now. I brought this up to every supervisor I've had with ATF since 2009. I've taken this as far through my chain of command as I can take it. Up until the day I retired. I even spoke, spoke to the highest ranking DOJ official in Mexico City and showed them this data. And nothing has changed. And like, say, my, my biggest problem is now that I think we are truly on the, on the precipice of real change where something could actually change. People don't know what they don't know. So if the current administration doesn't know, they only know what ATF tells them in regards to this. And ATF has a lot of skin in the game. There are talks now about it being abolished, absorbed by FBI and dea. And there's always a funding issue. We need more funding to combat firearms trafficking in Mexico. Oh, firearms trafficking in Mexico is a problem. You have to give us another, you know, $100 million. We need four more groups along the border. We need 50 more agents along the border. When in fact, if you just reported the data the way it actually says that it is, all right, then you realize that the problem is not as big as it's. You could stop a huge part of it by halting and deceiving all direct purchases by the Mexican government. Government. But then you have to ask yourself, well, how are they going to fight the war on drugs in Mexico if they're not getting from arms from us? Where are they getting arms from? Those are echelons above Datsun. I don't know how to answer those questions, but then you at least have to take those firearms out of your statistical numbers or you have to at least qualify. Ever since I was first assigned to work firearms trafficking on the southwest border, it has widely been reported and utilized that the U.S. civilian firearms market is responsible for the majority of crime guns being recovered in Mexico.
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D
So we're to blame for a lot of guns being used to kill people and do cartridge crimes.
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C
We are to blame. Our civilian firearms market, our right to bear arms, is to blame for the violence in Mexico and along the southwest border.
- [08:14]
D
And people want to push that narrative in your opinion and experience because.
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C
Well, in my personal opinion, people want to push that narrative for several different reasons. One, I think some people want to push it to enact gun control, to alarm the American citizenry and to place blame on them and their second amendment rights as the rise of crime rates in Mexico. I think they want to do it to, for, for any number of Reasons like it's.
- [08:54]
D
But it is true, is it not, that a lot of American made guns or American sold guns end up in Mexico at crime scenes?
- [09:02]
C
Well, yes, but this is how you, you need to quantify that data. The tracing system as it exists can only successfully trace firearms with the US nexus. So that nexus includes any firearm that was manufactured in the United States or at one point imported into the United States. Then if it's found at a crime scene in Mexico, be it a homicide, a mass shooting, drug trafficking, or merely just someone in possession that shouldn't be in possession when it's traced, the only way it can successfully be traced by US or by the ATF is if it has that US nexus, You either manufacture or import it in the US So. So US sourced firearms are recovered routinely at crime scenes in Mexico. The difference is the vast majority of those guns do not come from gun dealers along the southwest border, specifically Arizona and Texas. The vast majority of those guns come from direct purchases by the Mexican government or government to government sales from the US Government to the Mexican government of surplus US Firearms.
- [10:10]
D
Why is the US Government selling so many guns to the Mexican government?
- [10:15]
C
Well, part of it goes back to the Murda initiative when we first started telling the Mexicans, you have to do something to stop the drug trafficking coming north of the border. The Mexican authorities needed resources and funds to do that. They needed to get the equipment to combat the Mexican drug cartels. So we started funding these operations, providing them with military surplus equipment, helicopters, firearms, providing them with hundreds of millions of dollars to purchase equipment, much of that firearm. So we would give them money to purchase firearms. And as such, ATF gave or issued the Mexican different entities of the Mexican government and as well as other Central American countries, what we call federal firearms licenses that began with a Z number. So a Z number ffl. So they could purchase directly from US manufacturers, almost a gun shop, almost like a gun shop. They could come in with their ffl, their Z numbered FFL and purchase directly from a manufacturer like Colt, like I'm not picking on Colt, but just as an example. So then these exports are approved and licensed. ATF doesn't handle export. It used to be customs, but now custom is rolled up in hsi. So HSI or State Department authorizes the direct export of the firearms under the Z number FFL the Mexican government purchased directly. There's also direct government to government sales. The US military purchases X number of firearms for its its stockpiles. And once those are surplus or however many are surplus, they would sell a Number of those to the Mexicans.
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D
What kind of guns are we talking about?
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C
Well, you're talking about your AR variant machine guns. You're talking about military grade machine guns, not the stuff that you and I can go into the average gun store and purchase, right? In order for you and I to buy a military grade firearm, we have, it's an NFA weapon, so we have to pay the $200 tax, we have to do the background check, submit our fingerprints and our photographs, wait nine months for the approval, however long it's taken. Now these are military grade firearms. Like these are right out of the gate, right out of the Conex box, ready to go to war.
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D
And we sell those to the Mexican.
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C
Sell them directly to the Mexican government or the Mexican government purchase them directly from the manufacturers here in the US.
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D
And I think I'll go through this if you don't know, because I think we discussed on the phone it's not easy or it's not easy for Mexican citizens to be able to own a gun in Mexico the way their laws work.
- [12:46]
C
No, my, my understanding is the only handgun that a Mexican citizen can own is a.38 special or lower. And it has to be certain circumstances involved in that. And I don't know the situation with rifles and shotguns, but it is in no way AR M4 variant rifles.
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D
Do you know, does Mexico get most of its guns from the United States?
- [13:09]
C
Well see, that's another thing. That data has never been released. It would be interesting to ask when ATF reports the data, if you can go back, look through the archives for years. When ATF reports this data of the firearms successfully traced, we can only successfully trace those of us that have a US nexus. So how many were submitted that have no US nexus, that are either Chinese, Romanian, Pakistani, wherever, that have never set foot in the United States, never imported here, weren't manufactured here. So we have no clue what those firearms are. What we do know is the number of US Sourced firearms. And by US source, I don't mean like it is implied by the agencies. And when they report this data, and this is not just the way they report it to the Mexicans, I firmly believe ATF reports this data to the administration this way as well, that when they report as US source firearm, they do not discard those firearms that were purchased directly by the Mexican government or that were directly sold to the Mexican government by the United States government. Now if you took those out, then what kind of numbers are you talking compared to the total number of firearms recovered and those averages those Numbers are going to be far less concerning than what the narrative is trying to push on what it is.
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D
So the picture we're getting paints a picture that most of the guns used at crime scenes in Mexico to hurt people have been sold to the cartel somehow by American dealers. Yes, but the truth is, and then you can correct me where I'm wrong, but There may be 200 guns found and 150 of them from other countries that aren't traceable in our system. So only 50 are put into the system and all of those come back as US guns because we can only trace US guns with the system. And then of the 50 that come back as US sourced, a lot of those might have been bought legally by the Mexican government, by our government, or with licenses our government issued.
- [15:11]
C
My understanding of the data, 70% of those were purchased. Giving your example, if at any given time period there are 200 firearms recovered at crime scenes in Mexico, say 100 of those, those guns recovered have zero US indexes. They were not manufactured here or ever imported in the United States. So that leaves you with a hundred that are considered US Sourced. All right. Now, of the firearms we can successfully trace, it should be 100% are US source because those are the only ones we can successfully trace. But out of those successful traces, upwards of 75% of that, all right, are direct purchases by the Mexican government from US Manufacturers or direct government to government sales from the US Government to the Mexican government.
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D
And what's the importance of that? What does that tell you about the impression people may have versus what's really happening?
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C
Well, the impression that people have and the impression that the Mexican government is trying to push forward, not only publicly but in their lawsuit against the Arizona dealers, is that the US civilian firearms market is to blame for the violence and the the firearms activity in Mexico. And that is simply not the case. Their narrative, what they say, is that these individuals that go into the local gun shops and try to buy 10 or 15 rifles, AK or AR variants at a time, and the gun shops, knowing that they're going to be transferred or trafficked south of the border, allow these sales to happen because all they care about is the money. And then these individuals come out, hand these weapons off, they're traffic south, they're given to the cartel and they're used in crime. So these gun dealers are turning a blind eye and are to blame for arming the cartels, when in fact it is the very government suing these gun dealers that is responsible for arming the cartels far and away. More than the civilian firearms market.
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D
So explain that piece of the puzzle. Once the Mexican government buys or imports guns from the United States, a lot of them end up in criminal hands somehow.
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C
Yes. And to what, what percentage that is, I don't know. You would have to ask. Like when the data is reported, when ATF reports this to the administration or to the public, why don't you follow that up with the information about how many firearms were purchased under these Z number ffls, how many export licenses were issued by HSI or formerly customs that that allowed these firearms to be trafficked legally through legal means south of the border. So how many firearms during any given period did Mexico purchase? And then how many of those were ultimately recovered in crimes like these are. This is information that I want our negotiators to have, that I want the, the American government and the Mexican government to have. Because if you don't solve this problem, if you don't fix this, it's just going to continue. We're negotiations with Mexico right now over these tariffs. Whoever's handling negotiations, when you hear them say, well, before we do anything, you need to stop the flow of firearms yourself. Like you have to stop the trafficking of arms. He could easily pick up the phone and say, okay, ATF, cancel those FFLZ numbers. HSI, cancel all export licenses, State Department and DoD cancel all direct government to government sales to the Mexican government. There Madam President, I have instantly cut 70% of the firearms being supplied to the Mexican drug cartels in one phone call. Now what are you going to do?
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D
If the Mexican government understands, as they must, that a lot of the guns turning up at crime scenes in Mexico are guns they, the government purchased originally. Should they, should they know about that? I mean, it seems like that's something.
- [18:53]
C
Of course they should. When they trace the firearm, right? Any firearm that's recovered in a crime, when they enter in E Trace, which is ATF's tracing data system, they will get a report from that. That report will say that this firearm was purchased by a foreign government and will list the FFL that purchased it which is one of the Mexican government entities. Or it will say specifically this firearm was involved in a government to government sale. So they will know that either their government purchased it directly from the manufacturer or or that their government purchased it from the US Government.
- [19:28]
D
What are your thoughts about whether the US Government should be selling so many guns to Mexico even if the purchases at the time are legal, when so many of the guns end up in criminal hands?
- [19:41]
C
From what I know, the amount of those Firearms that are ending up being diverted to the black market. I would cease and desist all transactions with the Mexican government when it comes to firearms. And I would ask them for a strict and thorough accounting of everything that they have purchased and where is it, what can they lay their hands on right now? Is it still in their armories in the United States?
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D
Do you think there's an implication without the proper context that we need more stricter gun laws and more gun laws to stop the flow of guns?
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C
That is part of the narrative when everyone is coming out saying that the violence in Mexico and on the US southern border is, is caused by the, the iron river of firearms flowing into Mexico from US civilian firearms market. And yes, the implication there is the only way we can stop this is to restrict those gun sales in the United States. When in fact, and this is, this is, this is the most important part of the issue that people have trouble understanding is the vast majority of that. For the biggest part of that problem is those firearms are purchased legally, exported legally, they're not illegally trafficked and then they're diverted to the black market once south of the border. The US civilian firearms market. Yes, straw purchasing occurs. Firearms trafficking south of the border occurs all right, but it is not to the exponential numbers that they describe it to be. It is not the primary cause of the problem. Hands down, far and away the vast majority of crime guns recovered in Mexico are purchased directly by the Mexican government.
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D
And some of the documents that you have, what would we see on there? How would you sort of decipher what.
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B
Those, what those show?
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C
Well, I can say it's not documents that I have, it's the tracing system. Anyone in the administration can call atf, pick up the phone, don't call headquarters because you don't know what kind of answer you get from that. Call local field agent that has Etrace account and say this is what I.
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B
Want you to do.
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C
You log on to E trace on the right hand side. It's generated statistical report. Click on that, it's going to come up. It's automatically populated with your or what we call an org code your office change that to recovery location. Put in the country of Mexico and do any 12 month time frame that you want, anyone that you want and you will see who the number one source dealer of firearms trace and it will be Mexico.
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D
What does a form like that look like? So we'll see a chart and the number one line will be the most guns.
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C
It will be source dealer of firearms trace.
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D
So number there.
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C
Yes, the number One dealer on that every time is the Mexican government for whatever 12 month period you want to pick between now and when we launch Spanish e trace in 2009.
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D
So the Mexican government, it seems to me if that's true needs to look at itself and how so many of its guns end up in the hands of Mexican drug.
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C
Absolutely, absolutely. But when, when we're not. When the American government isn't being told that American people aren't being told that and you can argue the Mexicans aren't being told that. Should they know it? Of course they should.
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A
Right.
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C
The mere fact that they, if you take them at give them the benefit of the doubt that they don't know that, well that opens a whole nother can of questions. Why in the hell don't they know that? But they should. And then yeah, the vast majority of those guns are purchased by the Mexican government. So what should we do instantly is stop that. You want to stop arming the cartels, you don't need more gun laws. You don't need to make it harder for US citizens to buy a firearm. You cut the direct the ability for the Mexican government to directly purchase firearms either from US manufacturers or from the United States government itself. You can single handedly, I mean one person, whoever's handling these negotiations, whoever's in a position can stop this 70% in no time. Rikki tick. And here's something else. If you're the Secretary of Defense, you now have assets on the southwest border. If you're the Secretary of Homeland Security, right. You have border patrol out there. You have hsi, ICE contacts, ever doj, right. We, I have friends that are now working the border, everything. And I worked the border for almost 15 years when I was with ATF. But now you have all these assets on the border to combat this trafficking, all right? I mean to combat these cartels and the human trafficking and the drug trafficking that they do. Meanwhile, in another ring of the Pentagon, someone is authorizing the direct sales of US surplus military surplus firearms to the Mexican government which you know now is going to be diverted in the hands of the cartel. Somewhere in HSI headquarters, someone on a different floor is authorizing the export licenses for firearms purchased directly by the Mexican government from US manufacturers. So you're sending your people down there and you're arming the people that they're going to war with. And I'm not saying it's intentional. They don't know. They don't know because the only thing that's being told to them is this is US source firearms. And it's not being, it's not being quantified. 200 guns were recovered in crime scenes in Mexico in the past quarter. 150 of them were direct purchases by the Mexican government. 50 of them were, you know, straw purchases. You got to put the truth out there. Speak the truth. Speak the truth to power, whether it's good, bad or ugly. Because these people are doing it for us, man. They're representing us. All these negotiations, all these we have people on the border right now, laid up in op, you know, observation points along the border, risking their lives. And yet we are supplying the cartels with the firearms. It has to stop. It's lunacy.
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B
I hope you enjoy today's podcast and that you will watch for the TV news story on my program Full Measure Sunday, October 26th. You can find a list of stations and times@Cherylakisson.com by clicking the Full Measure tab. Or you can always watch online on Sunday at FullMeasure News. You can look around noon. It should be posted then. And then if you happen to be listening to this after October 26th, you you can always watch replays at Fullmeasure News or on our unadvertised YouTube channel, Full Measure with Cheryl Atkison at YouTube. If you haven't already done so, please check out my latest bestseller, follow the How Big Pharma Misleads, Obscures, and Prevails. And it won't be long before you're looking for some good, original holiday gifts for independent thinkers like you. You can shop for them at the same time, you're helping support independent report reporting causes by going to the Cheryl Akison store. Click Cheryl akison.com and look for the Store tab. You'll find all kinds of products with clever slogans that people you know will appreciate, such as I need to find some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones came true. And do your own research. Make up your own mind. Think for yourself.