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- [00:00]
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- [00:29]
Cheryl Atkison
Hi everybody, Cheryl Atkison here. Welcome to another edition of Full Measure After Hours Today, new insights on long Covid and COVID Vaccine Injuries the government now says that most Americans are being impacted by long Covid illnesses that continue to crop up sometimes days, weeks, months or years after a COVID infection. But it's important to know something they are not advertising. This also includes long vax injuries, vaccine injuries that may occur long after vaccination, even if you have no adverse events at the time. From what I can tell, some public health officials are improperly trying to call all of them Covid related without separating out the ones that are likely related to or exacerbated by vaccines. It's important for several reasons because the vaccine injuries, according to scientists that are treating these things, may need slightly different and sometimes more aggressive treatments than the long Covid injuries. And also it's important to fill in really major blanks that the government has left irresponsibly when it comes to this one time experimental vaccine given to so many people. It has not launched an appropriate and effective campaign to monitor for and pick up adverse events critical with any new medicine, but particularly an experimental vaccine the likes of which nobody had ever received before given to so many people. There should be very meticulous monitoring and required reporting for years and it should have started the day the first vaccine was given. They pretended to have sort of a program that watched out for some immediate adverse events in a limited way. They very loosely collect them through the federal database without really making sure that most of the events are even reported by doctors in the proper way. But we really need to get better at figuring out what the vaccines are doing in the long term to people we know. Not just the heart disorders that it can cause, but many other things being reported such as vision problems, hearing problems, gut problems, muscle problems, paralysis, brain fog, you name it. The vaccines can be linked in some way because of the way vaccines work in our bodies to all kinds of problems in people depending on their other exposures, their genetic predispositions and so on. But anyway, we are checking in today with a doctor who is looking at all of this, Dr. Jordan Vaughn an independent doctor of Medhelp Clinics in Birmingham, Alabama. We did a very popular town hall with him over a year ago on these topics, and we've been checking in with him ever since because he is on the leading edge of figuring out the puzzles that may help us solve what could treat patients who have been told by the likes of Mayo Clinic that they can't figure out what's wrong with them. Well, Dr. Vaughn has been able to help some of these patients. He's treated thousands of them, and he's learning a lot. Today he's going to give us his new insights on long Covid and COVID vaccine injuries and how he's treating them. And this includes emerging treatment of iliac vein compression by putting in stents. One reason you'll want to listen to this is because he's discovered a pretty big subset of his Covid and COVID vaccine injury patients have problems with compression of the iliac vein. This is sort of in the pelvic area. What's fascinating is this compression issue can manifest in all kinds of different ways with symptoms you would not connect to a compressed vein in your pelvis, let alone Covid or COVID vaccine. It can be rigid muscles feeling very sick, brain fog. I mean, you name it. Almost any kind of symptom you can have that could be impacted from ultimately, apparently from what Dr. Jordan says, your blood flow not working right or the oxygen not being transported properly through your body, that can be impacted. And the normal test that you will go to get from a doctor who may say he's testing you for everything Dr. Vaughn says will not reveal this problem or other ones that he's been able to detect. So if you think you're reaching a dead end and you're having issues, don't give up. There are doctors who are looking into this sort of thing, different ways to test for it, successful ways to treat it, if not cure it, but at least to treat it and make patients better. I'll be reporting on all of this, by the way, on my December 8th program, full measure. But here now is the full interview with Dr. Vaughn.
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Dr. Jordan Vaughn
It's been a while since we checked in, and this is the type of thing where you're learning, I guess, day by day, what is the latest thinking and what's the latest. That's new.
- [05:32]
Medical Expert
So, actually, late August, a group at UCSF and the Gladstone Institute came out and actually confirmed, for the most part, what we had already thought, that fibrin was a big driver of a lot of this. And actually the paper states that fibrin actually drives thrombo inflammation. I think you've heard that word before when the last time we talked, and that it causes a lot of, even the neuropathology, a lot of the brain fog, the cognitive dysfunction, those kind of things. The other thing that we're seeing is going back to the veins. Now, the first time we were here, we talked a lot about the small vessels, especially on the arterial side, the ability to get oxygen out to tissues, but not more importantly, just as importantly is to get the sewage away. The veins and the venules have a lot of immunological function, but also the big veins are your waste disposal center. And if there's any kind of impediment to getting venous blood back to the heart, it can cause a lot of these symptoms. And seems like that Covid damages the endothelium, the inside of these vessels, and then makes them where most of these people probably already had veins that were a little bit more pliable and floppy than average. But it makes it even worse and causes them to have issues, especially young runners. Even probably people we've talked to too, got better on anticoagulants. But then the additional thing we found is the venous component of that and had to fix that as well.
- [06:57]
Dr. Jordan Vaughn
How'd you fix that?
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Medical Expert
So medicines are helpful, and we're trying to come up with a lot of what I would call non invasive ways to do it. We have some things that we're trying, especially with the foundation, things that are like ultrasonic and also different modalities like ecp. But the current way to fix it is actually something called a stent. And so a stent meaning something that opens that vessel up. And my kind of partner in crime, I guess, in Colorado, we've done about 200 now in this patient base, anywhere from the ages of 15 to about 72, 73 is the oldest. And the young people definitely do very, very well. The older people, it does take a little longer because their veins are older to begin with. And so a lot of these people already had some kind of venous spider veins or had ablations, and then so they already had kind of stretchable or easy to damage veins. And now all of a sudden it's way worse than it was.
- [07:54]
Dr. Jordan Vaughn
So try to explain just in the simplest of terms what the stent does, what's being caused, and then what the stent does for people. And we're talking about COVID and COVID vaccine.
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Medical Expert
Yeah, both. Yeah, without a doubt. And so the interesting thing will be that Historically, this problem had usually been thought of as something that you're born with, and it is true that it does. People that have kind of iliac vein compressions, they're common within the general population, but they are not necessarily clinically significant. So a lot of these people go from having some, probably some types of lower extremity venous issues, things like they felt better when they ran. If they stood up for a long time or sat for a long time, their legs might go to sleep. Those are things that they had before COVID But then all of a sudden they. They go from that to having basically not able to stand up for a long time, not able to run anymore, and it's just significantly affecting their life. So actually opening up that iliac vein allows that blood to get back to the heart and at the same time drain, in a sense, drain your venous system. Your venous system is passive. It's low pressure, so it's really influenced by gravity. It's also the heart of your venous system is moving your legs. If you don't move your legs, which you don't usually do when you're asleep. A lot of these people wake up feeling awful, feeling like they haven't slept at all, feeling like it takes an hour for them to get going in the morning. And previously they were the exact opposite people that got up at 5am and ran four miles. And they were the crazy friend, you said, can you just not run today? And they're like, no, no, no, I can't, I gotta run. Or I don't feel normal. Those kind of people.
- [09:27]
Dr. Jordan Vaughn
What does it tell you that this is a secondary thing you've learned? I think first of all, we knew some obvious things that were happening from people who had Covid and COVID vaccine problems, but this seems to be a pretty big subset. That was something you discovered later.
- [09:42]
Medical Expert
Yeah. And it really overlaps with, I think, more of a lot of these. A lot of the people are also what we call hyper mobile or more flexible than average. A lot of them have GI dysmotility, they'll have lots of GI issues, and they'll be also super sensitive to every medicine. So they're kind of the last person you want to even try on medicine. So you got to be very, very careful. But it teaches you that there's a lot of overlap in how systems work. And you damage one system and then you cause issues with all kinds of other systems. And I think that's why it's so confusing to a lot of physicians, because it doesn't really follow the siloed medical world that we live in where you have a cart issue and you need to go over there, you have a, you know, a cancer issue, you need.
- [10:25]
Dr. Jordan Vaughn
To go over there, you're doing a lot of conferencing with other medical professionals, sharing what you've learned, kind of spreading the word. What is the status today of what the medical establishment thinks about all this versus what they knew maybe a year ago? Do you feel as though they're starting to get on board with understanding there's something different they may have to look at?
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Medical Expert
So I think there's two things that can happen. One is the medical system currently is trying to solve this issue through the lens of the top down approach, which is gather all this information and then come up with a unique, one probably patentable solution. And the reality is these kind of disease processes, similar to the last time we talked of the kind of MECFs kind of cohort, they're not single issue or siloed kind of disease processes. So there's usually not going to be some monotherapy or monotherapy that actually, that actually proves to be useful. Instead it's a lot of combining understandings of different systems and working with those systems to find ways with medicines that we already have. And so even not too long ago, went up to Washington to talk a little bit about this. But the main thing, the main point was is they actually were asking for help because they're kind of lost in it too. Again, this doesn't really. It's not like some unique cancer diagnosis that they're allowed to get the genetics and the makeup and then, you know, apply all the epidemiology and the, you know, the phenotypes that come instead. It's, it's almost like most of the people that are finding ways to help people are starting from the ground up. And a lot of times it's just asking the patient and figuring out. Sometimes a lot of my patients have tried stuff and it worked. And then when I think through it, I say that makes a lot of sense. I might try that on somebody else. And that's really how medicine is more of an artist to practice than it is something that's just easily prescribed and protocoled.
- [12:16]
Dr. Jordan Vaughn
But that's really not the way I think a lot of doctors are taught to conduct their practices. So they're probably not doing that.
- [12:22]
Medical Expert
Yeah, I think curiosity has been beaten out of every doctor. And I would say most doctors that really went to medical school after the onset of evidence based medicine really don't know how to think about maybe some of the things that you're taught or some of the things that might help. And so they're kind of closed off boxes that are very good at performing procedures. Procedures for things we know about. When it comes to something that we don't know about, we're really a pretty terrible system for doing anything about it.
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- [14:08]
Dr. Jordan Vaughn
What is your thinking today as to what is being caused by people who had Covid, maybe even without symptoms versus what may be caused by people who had Covid vaccines and a problem with that.
- [14:21]
Medical Expert
So the vaccine, I mean I think the more we learn about it and again learn about it as in they didn't know this either. Which is even a a bigger problem that you kind of say that this thing from beforehand is safe and effective and then the next thing you know there's also complications to it. That seems to be the kind of the reverse way that we should be having any preventive therapy entered into society. But a lot of the vaccine injury has much more where it penetrates. So things like lots more neurological issues, stuff that's very disconcerting to the patient but also mystifying to the neurologist. On top of that it seems like immunologically the vaccine makes your immune system in many ways different than it would be if you just had Covid. But I don't discount the fact that many of my patients have never had the vaccine and they have pretty severe long Covid symptoms. Just the same, I've got plenty of people that swear they've never had Covid and their immunological data proves that out. And they've got terrible similar symptoms as well. But the unique thing in that is the spike protein is the spike protein. And in a sense that means that if we kind of understand the pathogen, then the pathogen being exposed to these people, it doesn't matter. In some instances it definitely seems to be worse with vaccine. And then there's other complications with the vaccine that we don't really. Again, it's delivery technology. How? Well, it's where it spreads into different tissues. A lot of that is being discovered after the fact, which is kind of quite disconcerting.
- [15:52]
Dr. Jordan Vaughn
There's a major study the federal government is behind. I think it's a global study called Recover. And I was surprised to learn as I was engaging with them that they don't seem to be separate, separating out with their patient population who had the vaccine and who didn't. Seems to me they're being presented with important data as we try to figure out, as we should be, what vaccine side effects there are. And yet they're blending. They're calling them all long Covid. They're not distinguishing between the patients who may have been exacerbated because they were vaccinated.
- [16:23]
Medical Expert
Yeah, and I think that the patients know, I will tell you that most of them can temporarily tell you when things changed. But yeah, I think that's unfortunately on purpose. I will say in my clinic, the important thing is have you been vaccinated and then what were the symptoms after your vaccine? I would say some people never had any symptoms within that kind of 14 day issue, but then months later started to have interesting kind of cardiovascular problems or new onset brain fog, those kind of things. And it's again, they haven't had Covid in that time period. But I like to make that distinction because it does kind of inform us, you know, what kind of. I'd say the, the amount of damage seems to be more, the more times the spike has been allowed to run through your body.
- [17:11]
Dr. Jordan Vaughn
Would it be important if the government is trying to figure out protocols and what's going on? Do you think it's important that they know this distinction between the patients who had vaccines and those who didn't when you're discussing a course of treatment or is the treatment going to be the same regardless?
- [17:24]
Medical Expert
I definitely think it matters in Terms of what kind of recommendations they blanketly give to every everybody, like go get a repeat booster. I think last time I counted the typical person, I think it's 10 vaccines or 10 total shots they should have had by now. Now I will tell you, I haven't yet to meet probably one person that's had all 10, which makes me think there's a lot of anti vaxxers out there because they didn't follow what the government told them to do. But in the end the government is telling us to continually be exposed to this thing that we now know and, and all agree pretty much within the literature is a pathogen. And at the same time they don't really know the long term consequences and their solution is to just give you another dose. And that in medicine, especially preventive medicine, is absolutely contrary to the way we would design something to help prevent somebody from having issues.
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Dr. Jordan Vaughn
Let's talk about the patients we're going to see today. We already talked to. How is Hannah doing?
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Medical Expert
So Hannah's doing good. So she actually has had, she actually had, had a stent and again going back to that hypermobile, used to be a gymnast. Hannah's very much that way and she basically is able to get along and do the things that she needs to do. And is she back running like Ellen? Probably she's really not. But she is 100% more functional than she was before. But there's still lots of stuff we have to learn. And I think that's the other thing is especially when you throw in how many times she's had Covid and the vaccine exposure, she still has a lot of damage that needs to be repaired.
- [18:56]
Dr. Jordan Vaughn
How many times has she had Covid and how many vaccines?
- [18:58]
Medical Expert
If you know, I don't know.
- [19:00]
Cheryl Atkison
Okay, that's all right, go ahead.
- [19:01]
Medical Expert
But in her, the vasculature itself has been damaged in a way that needs to be repaired. So even one of the things that my colleague in Denver we talk about as well as my colleague at Emory, Alexis Kutchens, is, you know, it's one thing to open up the vessel, it's another to understand that all the vessels are also probably having issues. They're just not as apparently obvious as the one that's compressed. And so we've got to make sure not only that we open it up and allow venous flow to happen, but we've got to heal the rest of the vasculature too. And there's, there's lots of ways that we do that, whether it's with anticoagulants Other kind of supplements that help with the inside of the vessel to heal back to the normal state.
- [19:44]
Dr. Jordan Vaughn
And how is Ellen doing?
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Medical Expert
She's doing good as well.
- [19:47]
Dr. Jordan Vaughn
She's actually, when we first met her, she was really not doing well. So she hadn't gone through the treatments yet.
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Medical Expert
Yeah, and she is actually doing really well. She's actually coaching, I think Sanford track team now, which has been fun for her. And she's not as much of a runner anymore because she's now throughout, you know, through that, through that part of her life.
- [20:06]
Dr. Jordan Vaughn
Did she have a stent?
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Medical Expert
Yes, she did. So.
- [20:08]
Dr. Jordan Vaughn
And what, what difference did it make?
- [20:10]
Medical Expert
A big difference. I mean, you could tell. Actually a lot of these runners have a lot of what we would call physiological data that they collect with these new devices like whoops and those kind of things. And her heart rate variability instantly improved her baseline heart rate all the time. I mean, you could almost see it from when the stent went in. And she actually, because her dad is track coach as well, so they like to keep up data on all of their athletes. You could just see it go, you know, back to normal.
- [20:37]
Dr. Jordan Vaughn
I still have hardly a day go by that I don't run into somebody who's having a problem that nobody can seem to solve. And they've been to the doctors and they wonder if it's something that if only they saw the right doctor, they might be able to figure out because they think it might be Covid or COVID vaccine related. What is your advice to someone? Many people who are looking for answers.
- [20:57]
Medical Expert
So first I think it is to write down all your symptoms and write down things that you're experiencing. I think that really helps a lot of the doctors to put it all together because especially when somebody comes with six months or a year of issues and some of those issues change throughout time. It's really hard, especially in the way our medical system set up to sit there and digest that in 15 minutes. The other thing is coming up with a temporal relationship that either a vaccine or an infection had to your symptoms. And I think that's really helpful to doctors to go, you know what, you're right. You know, I mean, you can't exclude that as an, as an issue. And I think that also helps. A lot of people haven't even thought about it. When I sit and talk to them about their symptoms and then relate it to when they had Covid or the vaccine, they go, no, I never really thought about that. But you're right, it was a week, right, One week after that. And it's not that surprising to go well, the likelihood that it's related to Covid is probably much higher if it has some temporal relationship to that. But that's not to say all the time. It's also to find doctors that will listen, doctors who are reading a lot, and doctors who will try to care for their patients beyond the kind of protocols that most of them are probably, you know, their heads have been hit with multiple times.
- [22:09]
Cheryl Atkison
If you want more information and resources on this topic, I've compiled a resource list. If you go to cherylakisson.com click the health tab and you will see long Covid and Long Vax resources with links to more information and also links to places where doctors are doing telemedicine evaluations for patients. They also have resource links to doctors you can search for in your area who might be Read up on the latest science on this when maybe some other doctors are not. Again, the full story on this will be on the December 8 full measure show. To find out where you can watch, go to cherylakison.com click the full measure tab for a list of stations and times so you can find out when it's playing near you. If it's easier, you can always watch online at FullMeasure News. We will air this episode on December 8th live starting around 9:35am Eastern Time and then it's posted thereafter. So if you happen to be listening to this after December 8th, never fear, you can go to FullMeasure News and watch for free there anytime. I hope you enjoyed today's podcast and you'll leave us a great review and you will share the news with your friends. Check out my other podcast, the Cheryl Atkinson Podcast, and be sure to order a copy of Follow the Science, my new bestseller, How Big Pharma Misleads, Obscures and Prevails. Very eye opening. Read some of the five star reviews on Amazon to understand why this might be a valuable resource to you. That's Follow the Science, do your own research, make up your own mind, think for yourself.