Full Measure After Hours: After Hours - On the Road in Poland (From the Archives) Release Date: May 22, 2025
Host: Sharyl Attkisson

Introduction

In this special archival edition of Full Measure After Hours, host Sharyl Attkisson joins investigative producer Daniel Steinberger and photojournalist Brian Barr on their first trip to Poland. The team delves deep into the illegal immigration crisis in Europe, explores the intricate political landscape, and examines the historical contexts shaping current events.

Exploring Poland: First Impressions and Local Insights

Initial Impressions of Poland

• Brian Barr shares his positive experiences in Warsaw, highlighting its cleanliness, a blend of historic and modern architecture, and friendly locals. He remarks, "I would spend the rest of my summer here if I could" (02:13).

Local Expertise

• Gregory Sokol, the local fixer, provides essential support by navigating language barriers and offering historical and cultural context. He emphasizes Poland's complex history and its impact on contemporary issues, stating, "Poland... is a complicated place... characterized by a fair amount of polarization, some conflict" (05:06).

Energy Policy and Historical Context

Intertwining of History and Energy Policy

• Daniel Steinberger observes that European experts often link current energy policies to historical events, unlike their American counterparts. He notes, "When you ask them about an energy question, first, they will give you an answer, telling you about how their policy relates to something that happened in the past" (07:08).

• Gregory Sokol agrees, highlighting Poland's shift from Russian dependence to pursuing green energy as a response to both historical dependencies and modern EU policies. He explains, "Poland... has been eagerly working to break [its dependency on Russia]" (09:31).

Political Landscape in Europe

Current Political Trends

• Gregory Sokol discusses recent European political shifts, noting that despite expectations of a rightward surge in the European Parliament elections, centrist forces remain dominant. He states, "It's still the center, the centrist forces that continue to control politics" (16:10).

• He further explains the differences between Eastern and Western Europe, emphasizing that former Eastern Bloc countries like Poland are more optimistic about future generations compared to some Western European nations facing fears of decline and ineffective welfare states.

Immigration Crisis and Its Implications

Belarusian Manipulation of Migration

• The conversation delves into Belarus's role in orchestrating illegal crossings into Poland, with Gregory Sokol detailing how Belarus, in collaboration with Russia, facilitates the movement of migrants from the Middle East to destabilize Europe. He states, "Belarus... has been conducting a coordinated operation whereby it brings people from the Middle East" (22:03).

Poland's Response

• Daniel Steinberger highlights Poland's measures to curb illegal crossings, including the construction of a border fence. Sokol acknowledges the fence's limited effectiveness but underscores Poland's determination to maintain border control: "The crossing continues. It's just harder" (25:45).

EU's Dilemma

• The EU faces a complex challenge balancing human rights commitments with stringent border policies. Sokol comments, "The EU is today locked and between two realities that it doesn't know how to reconcile" (28:02).

US-Poland Relations and Global Perceptions

Perception of the United States

• Gregory Sokol expresses concern over the evolving perception of the United States in Europe. He mentions, "People are being beginning to see some serious cracks in that image" (35:13).

• He fears that any perceived withdrawal of US support could embolden Russian ambitions in Eastern Europe, jeopardizing Poland's security: "Poland is in this unique position where it's always either benefited or hoped to benefit from the United States" (38:15).

Impact of US Political Turmoil

• Reflecting on recent US political events, including the shooting of former President Trump, Sokol links these occurrences to concerns about the stability and future of US leadership, which Poland heavily relies upon for security guarantees.

Looking Ahead: Challenges and Silver Linings

Future of Immigration Policies

• Gregory Sokol emphasizes the need for Poland to develop a comprehensive immigration policy to address current and future challenges. He highlights Poland's demographic issues, such as an aging population and labor shortages, which make effective immigration policies essential: "Poland is also an aging society. We need, we have a labor shortage" (31:03).

Optimism Amidst Challenges

• Despite the grim outlook, Sokol offers a silver lining by suggesting that times of hardship can bring out the best in people. He remains hopeful that Europe and the United States can uphold their core values of democracy and human rights, even in the face of adversity: "Times of hardship and times of challenge actually bring out the best in people" (43:11).

Conclusion

The archival episode of Full Measure After Hours provides a comprehensive exploration of Poland's current socio-political landscape, deeply intertwined with historical contexts and contemporary global challenges. Through insightful discussions with Gregory Sokol, the podcast sheds light on the complexities of immigration, energy policies, and the critical role of international alliances in shaping Poland's future.

Notable Quotes

• Brian Barr on Poland's Appeal: "I would spend the rest of my summer here if I could" (02:13).
• Gregory Sokol on History's Role: "Poland is a complicated place... characterized by a fair amount of polarization, some conflict" (05:06).
• Daniel Steinberger on European vs. American Responses: "When you ask them about an energy question, first, they will give you an answer, telling you about how their policy relates to something that happened in the past" (07:08).
• Gregory Sokol on EU's Immigration Challenge: "The EU is today locked and between two realities that it doesn't know how to reconcile" (28:02).
• Gregory Sokol on US-Poland Relations: "Poland is in this unique position where it's always either benefited or hoped to benefit from the United States" (38:15).
• Gregory Sokol on Silver Linings: "Times of hardship and times of challenge actually bring out the best in people" (43:11).

Timestamp Reference

For ease of navigation, notable quotes include timestamps in the format (MM:SS). For example, [02:13](#timestamp) refers to 2 minutes and 13 seconds into the podcast.

Note: This summary excludes advertisements, introductory remarks, and concluding segments to focus solely on the substantive content of the podcast episode.