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- [00:01]
Cheryl Achison
Hi, everybody, Cheryl Achison here. I hope you enjoy this special from the Archives edition of Full Measure After Hours. Hi, everybody, Cheryl Achison here. Welcome to a special summer edition of Full Measure After Hours. Today we're on the road in Poland where we're reporting on the illegal immigration crisis in Europe, politics and a lot more.
- [00:31]
Daniel Steinberger
Pardon the driving noise, but we are. What highway is this?
- [00:35]
Gregory Sokol
This is highway going northeast of Poland towards Bialystok.
- [00:39]
Daniel Steinberger
Okay.
- [00:39]
Gregory Sokol
It's an S8, I believe.
- [00:42]
Daniel Steinberger
We're on the road again for Full Measure, shooting new stories and researching for the exciting fall season 10. And I'm here with the investigative producer extraordinaire, Daniel Steinberger and the incredible photojournalist Brian Barr. And a special gu you'll hear from in just a moment. But first, this is my first trip to Poland. I think it's all of our first trips to Poland. Daniel, do you have any initial reflections? We're going to be spending more time here, but in the first day and a half.
- [01:12]
Brian Barr
Yeah, very. From what we've seen in Warsaw, very clean, very nice. Good mix of historic buildings and kind of more modern high rise buildings. It seems like most everything in Warsaw though, from what I'm told is built after World War II. So, you know, historic is historic, but not, you know, more than it's, you know, less than 100 years old, obviously, so. And what else? I think the food is pretty good. We had some pierogies. Yeah, we had pierogies for dinner and lunch. It's sort of like a dumpling. We had it with. Yeah, there's a beet soup that our colleagues had here and yeah, so far so good. We haven't been here very long, but people are very friendly and we've been enjoying it and look forward to reporting a bunch more stories while we're here. And here's Brian Barr, our photographer as well, who may have some impressions and thoughts.
- [02:14]
Big fan of Poland so far. Second time here. I was in the countryside. I've never been to Warsaw before. Warsaw is clean and easily easy to move around in. And the weather here is just. It's like New England summer right now. No humidity, powder blue skies. It's absolutely fan. It's lovely. I would spend the rest of my summer here if I could, so. But yeah, I love Poland. It's a fun place.
- [02:47]
Daniel Steinberger
Well, for once Brian isn't having to drive and talk at the same time because we have a local based fixer helping us out. Gregory, what's your last name? If you want to say it, if you don't want to say, you don't have to.
- [03:00]
Gregory Sokol
S O K O L and how.
- [03:02]
Daniel Steinberger
Did you get into the mix as a, what we call a fixer? Help us with the language and the locations and some of the editorial?
- [03:10]
Gregory Sokol
Well, I was put in touch with you through a colleague and friend of mine that I've worked with in the past and I've been in this business for a while. I mean, I'm also an anthropologist and a former journalist in Poland, but now I work at the university. But at the same time I do take jobs and projects on the side as a producer, sometimes a reporter, sometimes a documentary researcher or film maker. So I try to combine all the, all these exciting things when it comes.
- [03:43]
Daniel Steinberger
To what we hired you to do. And we haven't talked much about this before, although I may have interviewed someone else who worked with us in another country, Germany, when we were there. But we often hire people on site to help us out. Can you explain for this particular job what sorts of things you do to help us and to prepare?
- [04:04]
Gregory Sokol
Yes. So for this particular job? Well, most of the preparation and, and has been done by Daniel, to be honest. I mean, he made some great choices with choosing speakers and places to go and visit. So my role on this team is first of all to help you get from place to place to translate during the interviews where translation is needed, but also to provide some context. And Poland is, as most places are, a complicated place. It comes with a lot of recent and deeper history. It is now a place that is characterized by a fair amount of polarization, some conflict. It's been rapidly changing over the last decades and continues to change today. So I hope I can provide some of the context that you will benefit from in shaping and sort of deepening your story.
- [05:06]
Daniel Steinberger
Well, I have some other questions for you, but a few reflections first. Well, we're here in Europe to cover a number of stories for measure coming up this fall. One of them will be energy related. We always try to tie what we find in Europe and our travels, Asia and elsewhere, to things happening in the US because we are far more connected, I think, than most people know because it may not be widely reported. We'll also be reporting on the immigration crisis here, which in many respects mirrors what we've gone through and what we're going through in the United States. We'll be talking about politics and political trends. Again, some of that mirror probably what we're having happen. This is maybe a global trend in some respects. I would call it fatigue with the establishment politicians that we've seen in recent years. So it's fascinating. But one thing I've learned over the years, when I come to Europe and do interviews and Asia as well. Unlike in the US where you ask a question of an economist or an expert and they can pretty much just give you an answer, almost every question comes in Europe with an answ that provides some link to history or historical context. And I think that alone is a fascinating reflection on how things are different in America and Europe. Turmoil here, political turmoil, wars, the Cold War, the Iron Curtain, all of that is not so long ago. So when you ask them about an energy question, first, they will give you an answer, telling you about how their policy relates to something that happened in the past or who used to call the sh or how they're trying to become independent. So first, what are your thoughts about hearing me say that so much here has historical context necessary versus when I conduct interviews in the States and there just doesn't, you know, unless you ask for it, you're not usually going to get that?
- [07:08]
Gregory Sokol
Well, I would say that of all places, Poland is one where history comes into the picture with particular strength. And, you know, I mean, it really does play a role in how people think about who they are and where they come from and where they headed. And a Polish joke says that, you know, that God himself played a joke in Poland and placed it between Russia and Germany. And it's true when you look at this place's history, this country's history, and it is true when you ask about, you know, the current, current events and the future that it envisions for itself. So that's. And it's definitely been coming up in our conversations, in our interview. So that's. And a lot of that history is one of war and trouble. And I think this is a particular tinge that, you know, when Poles think about politics and what they are concerned about is very often sort of colored by that difficult history, by that difficult past. So it is today. You know, we talk about energy. You think about security more even than prices. You think about what Russia can do and what Germany can do and whether the US will continue to play an important role as a sort of, you know, guarantor of security in this region. So all that sort of bigger picture always comes into the small questions.
- [08:37]
Daniel Steinberger
I'm certainly not a geopolitical expert of any kind. I've just covered a lot of stories over the years. And when I was young person, I used to hear people refer to how much America's energy policy, how much America's foreign policy is related to energy and oil and getting the oil and securing the oil. And I used to kind of think that was just a bad rap being applied to. I think at the time it was like Bush, Bush one, Like, oh, that's just some kind of slur that people are accusing that all our decisions are made because of oil. Well, coming to Europe and seeing what's happened the past 10 years, 10 years plus, but particularly the last few years, you do see that much of politics is inextricably intertwined necessarily with the energy and the oil situation. For countries to keep running, they have to have affordable energy, period. So what are your thoughts about that?
- [09:32]
Gregory Sokol
Well, I think there are two things that are happening right now. And one, as you mentioned, is the fact that in Poland, specifically, Poland used to be dependent on Russia, and that's one dependency that has been eagerly waiting and working to break, and it has recently succeeded in doing so. But the other question now is obviously green energy and the green transform. That is also a policy of the European Union. That is going to be a difficult challenge for Poland because when it comes to energy in the economy, it still sees itself as. And in fact, in many ways it is economically behind some of the richer Western European countries, and it's tougher for Poland to make the transition that it is required to make. So in this way, both those old geopolitics with Russia and its sort of imperial ambitions and the new policies of the EU and the united Europe come to play a role in this question.
- [10:45]
Daniel Steinberger
The other thing you come to understand, a lot of people listening have traveled extensively around the world, but many people haven't. Something I've learned is you hear about America's influence in the world, but until you speak to political experts and world leaders around the world, have a good sense, at least of how important it is. It's not just sort of ceremonial, you know, oh, it's nice to have the US Support for this or that policy. It is the most important thing in some respects in many countries to have good, strong support for the United States on whatever it is they're trying to do. And that's why when you ask a foreign leader, you know how they feel. Even not trying to get them to comment on who they support in politics, they are careful to always just say over and over again, whoever's in charge in the United States, we work with. And this relationship is integral and it's, you know, it's just crucial to everything.
- [11:48]
Gregory Sokol
Well, also in this respect, Poland is a very interesting place to visit because it is very strongly connected to and sort of reliant on the United States. It considers itself to be, and it is regarded as the United States greatest sort of friend and advocate in Europe. It's probably the most, or one of the most US Friendly countries in the eu Also, for historical reasons going back to history, this is what an average Polish person will tell you. When World War II broke out, we had alliances with England, with France. No one came to our rescue. This is a lesson. Poland felt left, you know, abandoned, left alone, you know, when attacked by Germany and the Soviet Union in 39. And this is why really only sees the US as the one partner and one ally that can guarantee ultimate security. Even though, of course, the European cooperation is now deepening and there's more and more talk of European, you know, even European defense forces, et cetera, being developed. But Poland is that one country that will always look to the always. I mean, at least now it does. And for years to come, for sure, it will continue to look to the United States for guarantees of security.
- [13:06]
Daniel Steinberger
Now, from the 30,000 foot level, what are your observations as a casual observer as to what's going on with politics in Europe? And you don't have to get into like all the details. I mean, feel free to add some. But what I kind of mean is if people have heard anything about what's happening in Europe, they know there was Brexit some couple years back, and they may have heard that there have been some contentious elections, European elections and then local elections in the past few months. Is there an easy way to kind of give an idea of the texture of politics right now in Europe?
- [13:42]
Gregory Sokol
Well, we just had an important election, election to the European Parliament, and a lot of people were expecting a huge change to the right.
- [13:54]
Daniel Steinberger
Why is that?
- [13:57]
Gregory Sokol
I mean, I think there are different reasons for that. One is perceived there are a lot of changes happening in Europe and not all the changes are such that people are very happy with or feel necessarily that they have agency or they have control over. So there is some fear, I feel, in Western Europe. That's another way in which Poland and the former Eastern bloc stand sort of separate from Western Europe. I feel in Western Europe there's a sense that the good years or several, many decades post World War II of growing wealth and welfare, both in fact, and the welfare state being successful are coming to an end. The welfare state has not been successful at providing all the services at the know, the standards that people are used to. You hear it in France, you hear it in Italy, you hear it in many other places, this. So there is a sense that maybe the future generations won't be as lucky or as comfortable as the past generations. That's a little different in former Eastern Europe that's now part of the eu, like Poland, where this generation, the coming generations are regarded as, you know, having a chance to let, to be better off than the past ones. So that is an important difference, I feel. In the west there is a slight sense or a fear of decline and there are changes that are happening that people don't feel sort of subjects of, but objects. And that makes them, I guess that makes them seek other options. They see that the welfare state is not as effective as it used to be. They understand, and they don't necessarily always want to bear the cost of the effort to make it continuously successful.
- [16:01]
Daniel Steinberger
So there was a thought that in the European elections, you said that it might be a big shift farther right. What happened?
- [16:11]
Gregory Sokol
Well, that shift didn't quite occur. I mean, we do see more conservative and even far right politicians and members of Parliament, but the overall power balance hasn't really changed. I mean, it's still the center, the centrist forces that continue to control politics.
- [16:37]
Daniel Steinberger
And to be clear, tell me if I'm wrong, but my impression from interviewing people over the years, center here is pretty left for us in the United States, when people have helped me describe it, they say they're conservative is not what we maybe identify as conservative.
- [16:53]
Gregory Sokol
I would say the center here has roots in old Christian Democrats, but it is probably more sort of welfare state oriented than in the United States. So we take it for granted that the state has responsibility in providing basic services for people for free based on taxes. And B, I guess Europe is maybe more progressive culturally in certain ways than some of the, you know, parts of the United States, for sure. So in that way, maybe the center here may be farther to the left than the US But I wouldn't say that it's a big difference. Maybe the welfare state is something that the Europeans have and are proud of and want to continue to have. And the United States, I would say, is still farther away from that standard.
- [17:50]
Daniel Steinberger
We have covered on full measure Brexit, the movement which turned out to be successful in the end of the United Kingdom to break away from the rest of Europe, officially the eu. And I think they even had a second bite at the apple because people said, oh, they were sorry they did it, but in the next time they could have had a vote, they chose to just stay as it was with Brexit at the time when I was covering it. There was some discussion that maybe this would be the beginning of a wave. Frexit, maybe France would break away and Brexit, maybe Greece would break away.
- [18:26]
Gregory Sokol
Politics. There was talk of that.
- [18:28]
Daniel Steinberger
Yeah. And I think that was a, again, part of the. What I'll say, fatigue with the establishment politicians. But we haven't seen, Tell me if I'm wrong, a continuing movement of any strong meaning of other countries to pull away from the eu, or am I wrong about that?
- [18:46]
Gregory Sokol
No, I think the push really is to introduce. To change policy and to introduce that change through the EU rather than actually leave it. I mean, people talk about it out of frustration, but the EU is. I mean, there are many benefits with it, but it's also a very powerful tool for policy making. So my understanding is that even those who really want a change, what they want is to make that change through the European institutions and not undo the institutions themselves.
- [19:23]
Daniel Steinberger
One thing we'll be covering is your migrant crisis. That was a driving force behind Brexit, the departure of the United Kingdom, the European Union. And I think most Americans don't know that, like in the United States, there has been. There have been controversy in tensions over migrants or immigration here, either coming legally as refugees or illegally floating over the sea from Turkey to Greece or whatnot. And that's. Is that still a driving force behind a lot of politics here here in.
- [20:00]
Gregory Sokol
Europe or here in Poland? Here in Europe it is. I think there are two. One is that, you know, recent immigration, and even not so recent, you see people, you know, first, second generation people continue to pose a certain challenge to policies because they, you know, because of different forces of exclusion, et cetera, et cetera. That's a challenge to social cohesion. Right? So that continues to be a source of fear and frustration for some that is also quite easily politically exploited. And number two is that we all know and anticipate that immigration is only going to grow and possibly grow at a rapid pace. And that is something that many people fear. If it is true that migration, because of climate change and other social and economic, for other reasons, that migration will significantly increase in the coming years, how are we going to deal with it if it already poses a challenge to the existing policies and social institutions that we have?
- [21:20]
Daniel Steinberger
I didn't know this until I interviewed the president of Poland yesterday. Obviously, this is not. This is old news to y' all. I just didn't know. Tell me, if I describe the strike, correct me where I'm wrong, but there is a belief here, no reason to think it's not true for me that Russia has been systematically inviting people from Middle Eastern countries into Russia, taking them to the border of Poland, Belarus, a Russian friendly country, and trying to send them across the border to destabilize Poland, Europe by the inundation of these people who are, I suppose you'd say, culturally different to create sort of tension and instability. Tell us a little bit about that.
- [22:04]
Gregory Sokol
Yeah, that's correct. I mean that started. It is actually Belarus who plays the key role. But we all understand and presume that this is going, that is happening, happening in collaboration with Russia. Belarus, very friendly with Putin and supporting Putin in war in Ukraine, has since 2021 been conducting a coordinated operation whereby it brings people from the Middle east, mostly from Iraq, Syria, I mean there are, many of them are Syrians, but also Yemeni, Afghanis, I mean northern Africans, all over the world, I mean even India and you know, Cuba. So it's inviting people to come to Belarus to pay a hefty price for a travel package, promising them easy access to Europe to European Union and free stuff. Yes, well, that's the, that's the idea that they can. Well, those are often people who are running away from war torn countries. But you know, there is, it's also people who are eager to get into Europe to have a better life and it lures them into, so Belarus lures them into Minsk and then brings them to the border of Poland or you know, supports them in just getting, you know, renting cars, getting taxis, vans, whatever. They come to the border, they cross the border illegally and they try to get to Germany, most of them, or Western Europe. It's rare that Poland would be their destination. They're looking for, you know, to come to get into Western Europe. There are obviously human traffickers who are involved in this also on the European side and on the Eastern side it's the Belarusian state who is the trafficker typically. So this started in 2021. It was actually a response that Lukashenko, the Belarusian dictator concocted in response to European Union's boycotts because he faked an election, he rigged an election, another one. There were huge protests in Belarus that he crushed with force, causing thousands of people to have to leave the country and jailing many others. The EU imposed sanctions on him and the response was, well, let me mess with Europe then and bring people over, push them to, with the border in order to create chaos and to create political conflict, to destabilize the situations, possibly cause a sort of far right response that will later be met with political Response on the domestic arena, et cetera, et cetera. In the meantime, it's also an easy way for the builders and stake to make money. They're selling these trips and luring people into, but also promising them an easy way to get to Europe. That's much safer than crossing the Mediterranean Sea, where thousands of people drown and die.
- [25:14]
Daniel Steinberger
So Poland has built a fence or a barrier, if my numbers are right. I believe the president said prior to that there were something like 50,000 crossings may not sound like a lot to us in the United States because we have that huge border and all millions of people, but that's a lot for Poland, for this area. And then after the fence went up, I think they still had something like 20,000 in a year crossing that area. So they're taking measures. Again, these discussions sound a little bit like a lot of the discussions we're having in the United States.
- [25:46]
Gregory Sokol
Yes, I mean, the numbers are. You know, we don't have the exact numbers, but it's about the scale that you mentioned. It's the wall. The fence has helped a bit, but practically, you know, didn't make a huge change. I mean, the crossing continues. It's just harder, I guess. It's the smuggling has, you know, getting smuggled is now more expensive probably than it used to be. But, yeah, it does create a bit barrier of sorts. And Poland is determined to keep the border as much under control as possible. But, you know, but as long as Belarus continues to do what they did, what they started and continue with the operation, this will continue because people who. The migrants have very little to lose. But that's. It creates another problem for Poland and the European Union. I mean, the EU is today locked and between two realities that it doesn't know how to reconcile. And one is their commitment to human rights. And the idea that every person comes to Europe and asks for asylum or protection or has the right to have their case reviewed. On the other hand, the reality is that Europe itself has been running pretty harsh policies, pushing people back from its borders, basically violating its own laws and other ideals, and it has to live with this dilemma. We don't see a solution forthcoming. At the same time, there is a palpable sense that large portions of European populations, not necessarily everyone and not necessarily even majorities, but large portions of people, are very unhappy about this state of affairs. And there is political pressure on politicians to do something about it. And we see in many European countries that they are experiencing or trying to come up with a turnaround on how to run immigration policies. We See this in Sweden, for example. So it's a huge challenge in front of Europe. No one quite knows how to deal with it. And the radical solutions are probably not easy to actually introduce if you know.
- [28:03]
Daniel Steinberger
The answer to this question. If you don't, it's fine.
- [28:05]
Gregory Sokol
Of course.
- [28:07]
Daniel Steinberger
When people come here illegally, are they invited by local governments to vote in local elections or national elections or EU elections?
- [28:16]
Gregory Sokol
No, they don't have those such rights.
- [28:19]
Daniel Steinberger
Is there a movement to give them those rights?
- [28:22]
Gregory Sokol
I haven't heard. This is not. This is a conversation to be had much later along, you know, down the line.
- [28:27]
Daniel Steinberger
I say that just because there is an effort in the United States, I wouldn't say a widespread effort, but certainly in some cities or states to. They are allowing illegal immigrants to vote in the local elections, and there's a push to let them have a say in national politics. I don't think any other. I don't think any other country does that in the world.
- [28:47]
Gregory Sokol
Wrong. No, the US Has a very, very different tradition that. And which, you know, has traditionally been very sort of open and welcoming and allowing people, even those who were not documented in the United States to have certain rights. That's. I mean, I honestly sort of myself. I mean, I respect that it's a way to do this policy. I mean, even people who got somewhere in a way that, you know, wasn't legalized or regulated or documented continue to be humans. And they, you know, they. They deserve certain rights. I mean, they need to have, you know, health care and they have an accident. They should, you know, they deserve to have an ambulance and doctor take care of them. I have no question about that. Local elections is a different topic. I don't. This conversation is not happening in Poland. I think the conversation we are having and we need to be having is what kind of rights and protections the people who cross the border unlawfully deserve. And they definitely, and this is what the EU has stated in many of its laws, they deserve. They still under protection of the right to live and the right to health, and they deserve to have their case reviewed if they apply for some kind of status to stay in Europe.
- [30:15]
Daniel Steinberger
Okay, philosophical question. Both countries are probably facing in some regard, even if it's not being asked directly, say there's widespread agreement that people who come to your country, however they get there, have to have basic rights and education and health care and so on. Is there a breaking point at which a country can't afford it? Let's say China, for example, decided to send, you know, a million citizens to make A point to exaggerate, to make a point to the United States that could destabilize the country, that could give potentially foreigners the right to vote in certain elections and take over political power without having to use any tanks or war. And then there's a cost because at some point there could be a limit at which that couldn't be afforded.
- [31:03]
Gregory Sokol
Yeah, no, of course, I mean, one has to be reasonable and change, any change is okay if it happens sort of gradually and organically. And we also have to sort of weigh and measure the costs of any new policy that we introduce. But there's never been a conversation in Poland just to stick to this concrete case of whether we should allow thousands or millions of people to settle here. No, no, the question is how do we treat people who say, cross the border unlawfully and ask to stay in Poland and have their case reviewed? Do we grant them that right or not? We can review the case and deny them that right and, and then deport them back. I mean, there's, you know, if they don't, if this is not at risk of their life, if we're not deporting them into a war zone. I mean that, so that's the level of conversation. I mean, you know, we haven't even started really having the conversation that the United States have had for, you know, generations practically as a nation of immigrants. You know, so we're in a different, we're at a, at a, at a different stage. But I understand your point. I mean, you know, there has to be, first of all, there has to be a wise, informed and applicable immigration policy. And Poland doesn't have one currently, so it's not well prepared to take, to welcome and take significant numbers of immigrants. On the other hand, it really needs one. I feel like, you know, Poland is also an aging society. We need, we have a labor shortage. We need more people. We need people who will work to help us, you know, be able pay pensions to senior citizens, etc. Etc. I mean, it's a regular demographic challenge that, that most European countries have today. So the question is not whether or not we should have an immigration policy. It is a question of what kind of immigration policy we have and how we introduce it. For years, Polish governments one after the other, without feeling immigration pressure because it only started recently, but they just really been burying their heads in the sand on this.
- [33:15]
Daniel Steinberger
Hold on, do you need to focus on this? So an 8/10 of a mile. Should I stop and ask you another question afterwards? Be sure you don't miss your turn 80 a six tenths of a mile. Let's make the turn and then we'll continue the conversation.
- [33:41]
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- [34:42]
Daniel Steinberger
I don't know how close attention you pay to US politics, but you lived in the United States for a while, Gregory, you don't have to. You can weigh in specifically, or you don't have to weigh in specifically on parties and candidates, but just what are your general perceptions? We have had the most amazing, crazy, wild few months in the United States. You might even say a few years, but particularly with what's happened in the last few weeks and few months. What kinds of things are Europeans saying about all this?
- [35:13]
Gregory Sokol
You know what? Yes. Without weighing in, I can tell you one thing. I have been traveling to the US quite regularly again in the last couple years. And when I come back, the question I get the most is like, what's happening in the United States? What's wrong with the US what happened? You know, people used to look up to the US So much. This was the gold standard of democracy, of how to run government, of, you know, a well organized country and a well organized sort of state political entity that is, you know, responsible, respectful, dignified, efficient, etc. I think people are being beginning to see some serious cracks in that image. And I think that's the main response. I mean, people like, you know, whoever wins, you know, the election or whatever happens, there is a sense that there is something going on, there is something is, well, wrong off, different than expected. And there is a, there is, and there is worry in Poland specifically. The main worry is that the US will sort of fail or sort of withdraw from its role as the, you know, the greatest, the most powerful nation in the sort of Democratic West. And that also means for Poland specifically, that the US Will no longer be a counterweight to Russian imperialism and no longer be, you know, stand to sort of secure or provide or guarantee security through NATO to Western Europe and much of the world. So Poland is in this unique position where it's always either benefited or hoped to benefit from the United States, from American foreign policies. And not every country in the world enjoys that position, to be clear. But Poland specifically, always threatened by, you know, Russia or, you know, totalitarian, you know, Nazi Germany was always looking to the United States as, you know, to come in, you know, riding on a white horse. And the sense now is that if that the US Might willingly or not withdraw from that position, give Putin, you know, free reign in Eastern Europe, stop supporting Ukraine, which will only allow Putin to grow and become more self, you know, confident and go farther. There is no question that to most polls that if he gets to have it his way in Ukraine, this will not be the end, but the beginning of Russian, you know, Russia's sort of push in Europe.
- [38:15]
Daniel Steinberger
Do you remember how you first heard that President Trump, former President Trump had been shot?
- [38:22]
Gregory Sokol
Yes. I turned on the news in the morning and heard about what happened and immediately started reading in Polish and American media and was shocked. I mean, you know, it came as a, you know, surprise, to say the least. And my second thought was that this will be a major event in this election, in this campaign. And I was, and I was relieved that he was not hurt more because other sort of general human and humanitarian concerns aside, I thought that this could trigger some quite worrisome processes or chain of events.
- [39:23]
Daniel Steinberger
So just think about sam since COVID and 2020ish, when it really became a world phenomenon from former American president and the Republican nominee getting shot. The five years we have been through in this world, we'll be telling grandkids and hopefully great grandkids about this.
- [39:46]
Gregory Sokol
Well, I can only hope that we'll be telling our grandkids about all this and, you know, a peaceful and comfortable world. But I really am having my doubts and that's going to be the case. And again, I think much of it depends on the United States. I mean, there's again, for this part of Europe, we have the past, the history and the, you know, in mind so much we remember what happened, you know, to our families and to our homeland. So it felt, I'll tell you, I say it differently. When the first, when the annexation of Crimea happened In Ukraine in 2014, there's Maidan, there was a protest in Kyiv. And then we saw the first, still small scale, but Russian invasion and annexation of part of Ukraine. What I felt then, I was then in the US And I would then talk to my friends and family in Poland, and for the first time they would say, you know, don't come back here. There might be war. And I thought, what? What do you mean? And I understood that, you know, Poland was lucky to have left what they felt was the bad, you know, evil 20th century behind in 1989, you know, the wars, communism, everything was over. And since that time, Poland felt that now we're in a, you know, path to a bright future. And the question is only like, when exactly how fast we can catch up with the, you know, the rich Western Europe. But no one doubted that had any doubt that we would live in peace and basically the future would be better than the past. And we enjoyed it for 25 years. I felt in 2014 that ended suddenly. I could see that that past is coming back. We're again in this world where we have an empire that is looking to expand militarily, who is our neigh and who historically has been invading and putting us under their control. So suddenly I understood that this was just a 25 year window that is just closing.
- [42:33]
Daniel Steinberger
So instead of looking like a new future for the rest of time for Poland, it looks like it was maybe just a brief, relatively brief break, worst case scenario.
- [42:43]
Gregory Sokol
Yeah, that was just a brief break. And now we're back in what looks very much like the 20th century that we thought we had successfully put.
- [42:50]
Daniel Steinberger
If I had to force you to try to devise a silver lining or a positive outlook globally, I understand there's not. Maybe you don't see a lot of reasons to be optimistic, but what is a turn we could take or a turn in thought that you have that looks more promising?
- [43:12]
Gregory Sokol
Yeah, I think the silver lining here is that times of hardship and times of challenge actually bring out the best in people. I feel that if, you know, one could hear people say recently, especially like the older generation saying, oh, you know, the people have gotten lazy, they've gotten comfortable. All they think about is their Twitter feeds or their Instagram or, you know, their comfort and their new sneakers. And I think we've been lucky and we've been spoiled by living in times of peace and affluence in Europe at least, and the United States States. I think a challenge until it becomes a tragedy may be a good thing. You can see it in Europe already. Like Europe has kind of like our response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine has been quite good. I was not disappointed by Europe. I was not disappointed by the United States. There's been a clear, you know, no to what happened, which I think came as a surprise to Russia itself. So some challenge and some reminder of that. You know, like we still have to stay sober and reasonable and think about the threats and think about the core sort of values that we stand by. You know, ideally, again, they are in Europe. They are it's democracy, human rights, you know, fairness, a degree of state protection of the, you know, base, basic rights of people like freedom of speech, freedom of expression, political freedoms, civil rights, civil freedoms, all of that, things that are violated. And sorry, I'm truly sad to say it, in places like Russia and many others, those are values that we are lucky to have and that we hold and that we must protect. So in some way I feel that what's happening today could be, you know, salvaged or it could be sort of. That's the silver lining. We could walk away with something good.
- [45:34]
Daniel Steinberger
Thanks.
- [45:41]
Cheryl Achison
I hope you enjoyed today's podcast and that if you did, you'll share it with your friends and leave us a terrific review. My Sunday TV news program, Full Measure resumes for Sunday season 10 in September. Check out my other podcast, the Cheryl Akisson Podcast. And if you'd like to support independent journalism causes like the Brechner center for Freedom of Information, you can visit the Cheryl Akisson Store by going to Cheryl Akison.com and clicking the Store tab for some unique and exciting products designed exclusively for free thinkers like you, with slogans such as I need to find some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones came true, and I hope you'll consider pre ordering my new book, coming out September 3rd. Follow the How Big Pharma Misleads, Obscures, and prevails. You won't be disappointed. Follow the Science digs into the collusion between Big Pharma, the media, political figures and the medical establishment and helps explain why we are growing sicker as a society despite the fact that we've never spent more money on health insurance and health care. Follow the Science also has some helpful tools to help you take back control of your health and the health of your family. Do your own research. Make up your own mind. Think for yourself.