Full Measure After Hours

The (Bitcoin) World According to Jeffrey Wernick (From the Archives)

Host: Sharyl Attkisson
Guest: Jeffrey Wernick, Early Bitcoin Investor & Advocate
Date: November 6, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode centers around a rare, in-depth conversation with Jeffrey Wernick—veteran investor, early Bitcoin adopter, and outspoken advocate for decentralization and free speech. Wernick discusses not just the technical or economic facets of Bitcoin, but situates his advocacy within a broader critique of centralized monetary systems, the decline of the US dollar, and the erosion of American founding principles. The episode also explores Bitcoin’s role as an ethical investment, its evolution, future risks from government regulation, and practical advice for newcomers.

Key Topics & Insights

1. Wernick’s Background & Philosophical Stance

• Early Adopter & OG Advocate:
  Wernick highlights his early entry into Bitcoin and his reputation for principled advocacy.
  • Quote: “If it’s not Bitcoin, assume it’s a shitcoin.” (01:39)
  • Unlike prominent figures (e.g., Michael Saylor), Wernick opposes any government partnership or requirement for third-party custody.
  • Quote: “If it’s not your wallet, it’s not your money. Possession is 9/10 of the law.” (02:18)
  • He is deeply motivated by decentralization, self-custody, and resistance to censorship.
• Commitment to Free Speech:
  • He has financially supported Parler, Gab, and BitChute, platforms noted for their stance on free expression.
  • Quote: “I don’t embrace any form of content moderation... we have a First Amendment not to protect the speech we like, but to give as much protection to the speech we don’t like as speech we like.” (03:19)
• From Profiteer to Principle:
  • Wernick acknowledges earlier investments in centralized, lucrative companies like Uber and Airbnb but now focuses on supporting decentralized, liberty-advancing ventures.
  • Quote: “I’m investing in a movement, not a business...the principal thing is I want us to remind the people of how foundational principles.” (06:52)

2. American Exceptionalism & Critique of Centralization

• Wernick laments the current state of government intervention in the economy:
  • Notes government spending at 40%+ of GDP and pervasive regulatory barriers.
  • Quote: “Free market capitalism is available to people like Elon Musk and no one else...We have capitalism for the few, not for the many.” (07:55)
  • Advocates a return to constitutional republicanism and historic American principles.

3. Bitcoin as an 'Ethical Investment' (10:08)

• Immutable, Decentralized, Transparent:
  • Bitcoin’s code and ledger are unchangeable, incorruptible, and accessible to all.
  • Quote: “What could be more ethical than a protocol, an uncorruptible protocol?...The ledger never lies.” (10:27)
• Voluntary Exchange, Censorship Resistance:
  • Transactions are peer-to-peer, permissionless, and censorship-resistant.
  • Quote: “What could be more ethical than two consenting parties agreeing to do a transaction and leaving a public record of that transaction...always an honest, truthful recognition?” (11:52)

4. Bitcoin’s Evolution, Community, and Wall Street’s Influence

• Philosophical Roots vs. Current Mainstream:
  • Early Bitcoin community focused on philosophical lectures (e.g., Andreas Antonopoulos), not speculation.
  • Wernick notes disappointment in the move towards financialization/Wall Street dominance.
  • Quote: “Now...the influential people are the Michael Saylors...the only value of bitcoin they really embrace is its scarcity value.” (13:35)
• Bitcoin’s Price and Store-of-Value Transition:
  • Since Wernick’s last interview, Bitcoin price has multiplied 10x.
  • He sees this as a response to global fiscal irresponsibility and fiat currency decline.

5. Predictions: Valuation, Role vs. Gold, Possibility of $750K+/BTC (16:29)

• Wernick estimates that as Bitcoin gains ‘second-best money’ status (after the US dollar), surpassing gold in market cap is plausible:
  • Potential price range: $500,000–$750,000 (17:23)
• He expresses mixed feelings about institutional adoption:
  • Quote: “In some respects, I could say I’m happy...this will drive up the price of bitcoin. On the other, I’m not happy...I want to see individuals, not companies, adopt bitcoin.” (18:12)

6. Personal Example: Real Estate Transaction in Mexico

• Wernick describes purchasing property using Tether (USDT) to eliminate banks from the process:
  • Quote: “I want to do a transaction that a bank is not involved in… The cost...is cheaper than at the bank. So it’s cheaper and faster and more convenient.” (19:28)
• Wernick remains wary of stablecoins due to their centralization and surveillance risk.

7. Government Regulation: Limits, Likelihoods, and Dangers

• Bitcoin’s Unique Immunity:
  • Quote: “The government can’t regulate bitcoin. Okay, Bitcoin is a protocol...” (23:03)
  • Contrasts Bitcoin (truly decentralized, permissionless) with “shitcoins” (centralized, pre-mined, regulatory liabilities).
• Real Regulatory Threats:
  • The primary risk is regulation of Bitcoin ‘onramps’, intermediaries, and miners.
  • For example: requirement of third-party wallets, classifying miners as intermediaries.
  • Quote: “There are regulatory threats but the regulatory threat is not the bitcoin in and of itself. It’s to those who are part of the ecosystem...” (26:30)
  • He sees a "great risk" of the US moving to restrict self-custody and impose third-party controls (27:45).

8. US Dollar Hegemony and Geopolitics

• Wernick sees hostility to Bitcoin as a response to threats against dollar supremacy.
  • Quote: “The more the market cap of Bitcoin grows, the more threat there is to the dollar as the reserve currency...the more likely that the US Government will take action and hostile action against it.” (28:00)
• Notes the bipartisan recognition in US government of the risks from overuse of sanctions and the potential for alternatives to the dollar to emerge.
  • Quote: "We use dollar hegemony very aggressively...For me, it’s a violent act of war." (29:22)

9. What Happens if the Government Acts Against Bitcoin?

• Impact on Value:
  • Wernick believes panic from hostile government acts would create buying opportunities, but that Bitcoin would ultimately prevail.
  • Quote: “Hostile actions are actions that occurred from a sense of weakness, not of strength...the more hostile the government gets against bitcoin, for those that would be panic selling, I’d be buying.” (29:56)
• Congressional Ownership:
  • Many in Congress already own Bitcoin as a hedge against US fiscal irresponsibility.
  • Quote: “I know a number of people that own bitcoin.” (32:07)

10. Practical Advice to Ordinary Americans (32:19)

• Bitcoin is highly volatile; invest only what you can afford to lose.
• Quote: “If they feel compelled to look at the price every day and then when they see a 10%, 20% move…that’s going to give them a heart attack…then they shouldn’t own it.” (32:29)
• Calls Bitcoin “the best hedge against the collapse of the fiat money regime,” not merely an inflation hedge.
• Expects the collapse of the fiat system is inevitable, invoking historical examples (British pound, Roman empire, etc.).
• Quote: “It begins with the debasement of money. That’s the beginning of the end. So we’re at the beginning of the end. I think the last token, the last money, the last coin standing, you know, will be Bitcoin...” (37:17)
• Bitcoin currently offers privacy and limited reporting, but regulatory change is always possible; should the US government become hostile, both Bitcoiners and mining may simply migrate to more welcoming countries.

Additional Context & Memorable Moments

• Bitcoin Mining & Security (41:59)
  • According to Wernick, 90% of all Bitcoins have been mined; the last will be mined in 2140 due to scheduled “halvings.”
  • The process is intentionally resource-intensive (“ingenious design”) to ensure network security.
• Personal Anecdote: Lost Early Bitcoin (43:15)
  • Sharyl recalls her daughter receiving (and losing) early Bitcoins earned through gaming, underlining one of the practical and emotional risks of self-custody: if you lose your wallet/password, your funds are gone forever.
• Mining Evolution
  • Mining has evolved from solo efforts on home computers to industrial-scale operations using specialized chips, requiring vast computational power.

Notable Quotes by Timestamp

• On Self Custody: “If it’s not your wallet, it’s not your money. Possession is 9/10 of the law.” – Jeffrey Wernick (02:18)
• On Free Speech: “We have a First Amendment not to protect the speech we like, but… the speech we don’t like as speech we like.” – Wernick (03:19)
• On Decentralization: “I want to live in a permissionless world. I want to live in a decentralized world where there are no authorities.” – Wernick (02:41)
• On Capitalism: “Free market capitalism is available to people like Elon Musk and no one else...We have capitalism for the few, not for the many.” – Wernick (07:55)
• On Bitcoin’s Ethics: “The ledger never lies. Whatever the ledger records… is always the truth… What could be more ethical than that?” – Wernick (10:27)
• On Bitcoin Price Potential: “Bitcoin could easily go 500, $750,000.” – Wernick (17:23)
• On Government Hostility: “The more hostile the government gets against bitcoin, for those that would be panic selling, I’d be buying.” – Wernick (29:56)
• On Historic Decline: “It begins with the debasement of money. That’s the beginning of the end.” – Wernick (37:17)
• On Allegiance: “My loyalty [is] to my ideas and my ideals, and I could be anywhere.” – Wernick (41:43)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:26 – Wernick’s introduction and his Bitcoin/OG background & advocacy
• 06:52 – His shift from anonymous investing to activism for freedom
• 10:08 – Why Bitcoin is “the most ethical investment”
• 13:09 – Evolution of Bitcoin & community; Wall Street’s influence
• 16:44 – Bitcoin price projections: $500K–$750K scenario
• 19:27 – Example of P2P real estate purchase with Tether in Mexico
• 22:50 – On the limits of government regulation on Bitcoin
• 27:48 – Regulatory threats and self-custody risks
• 28:00 – Dollar hegemony, geopolitics, and Bitcoin
• 29:56 – Government hostility: Effects, bullishness, and political adoption
• 32:29 – Advice for new Bitcoiners & risks of fiat collapse
• 41:59 – Explanation of Bitcoin mining, halving, and security
• 43:15 – Sharyl’s personal story: her daughter’s lost Bitcoin

Summary

This episode offers a rich, uncompromising exploration of Bitcoin’s ethos, its present and future risks, and its potential as both a technological revolution and a vehicle for reclaiming individual liberty. Wernick’s personal journey—from investing anonymity to movement advocacy—underscores his belief that Bitcoin’s true value lies beyond price or profit, anchored instead in unyielding principles against centralization, censorship, and government overreach. The podcast serves as a both a primer and a manifesto for those seeking to understand not only how Bitcoin works, but why it matters in the struggle for economic and philosophical freedom.