After Hours: The Devil and the TVA (From the Archives)

Summary

Full Measure After Hours

Episode: The Devil and the TVA (From the Archives)

Host: Sharyl Attkisson
Date: December 25, 2025
Main Guest: John Rich (country music star and citizen activist)

---

Episode Overview

This episode centers on a modern “Grapes of Wrath” scenario unfolding in Tennessee, where country singer John Rich became a citizen advocate against the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA). Rich joined local farmers and residents in Cheatham County in their fight against a massive new power plant project planned by the TVA, a powerful and secretive federal agency. The episode provides an inside look at how ordinary people, with the help of high-profile allies, successfully pushed back against what Rich describes as governmental overreach, culminating in the TVA abandoning its preferred site.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background on TVA and the Controversy

• TVA Origins & Structure
  • Founded in 1933 under FDR to build infrastructure and generate power in the South.
  • Answers only to the President, not Congress or local governments.
  • CEO’s salary recently as high as $10.5 million annually—26 times the President’s salary.
• TVA Today
  • A hybrid entity: not funded by tax dollars, but through electricity bills.
  • $13 billion in profits last year; operates across seven states.
  • Has the authority to bypass local zoning laws, making it unaccountable to local or even state politicians.

Quote:

“They don’t have to listen to governors, senators, congressmen. They only have to listen to the President.” — John Rich (04:42)

2. Cheatham County: The Local Impact

• Community Fabric:

  • Cheatham County consists of small, micro-farms and tight-knit families; several “Century Farms” (owned by same families for generations).
  • TVA targeted a site that would impact nearly 6,000 acres of farmland, five or six Century Farms, five school districts, water supplies, and about 450 homes.

• Government Overreach and Lack of Accountability:

  • TVA staff and contractors allegedly entered private properties with guns and bulletproof vests, without local warrants.
  • Local and even federal politicians were frustrated by their inability to hold TVA accountable.

Quote:

“You cannot show up on old ladies’ properties with guns and bulletproof vests demanding to come on their property. That’s Fourth Amendment…” — John Rich (12:20)

3. Why Here? The TVA’s Lack of Transparency

• Existing, more suitable sites (like the massive, decommissioned New Johnsonville coal plant with full infrastructure) were ignored for reasons TVA refused to explain.
• Even state and local officials couldn’t get answers, fueling suspicion.

Quote:

“Why are they coming to Cheatham county and trying to tear this place to smithereens?... TVA won’t answer that question.” — John Rich (08:45)

4. The Role of Advocacy and Citizen Power

• Rich began documenting and sharing the community’s plight via social media (X/Twitter), acting as an ad-hoc investigative journalist.
• Social media activism caught the attention of officials like Secretary Brooke Rollins (USDA) and eventually President Trump.
• As pressure mounted, President Trump took action to halt the plant project.

Key Moment (10:30):

“Secretary Rollins replied to one of my posts on X… and said, ‘I’m on it.’ That began a conversation… She said, ‘yeah, this can’t happen. We can’t lose all this farmland.’ That then got on the radar of President Trump.” — John Rich

5. Confronting TVA Leadership

• John Rich relates a tense but civil conversation with Justin Meyerhofer, senior VP of Government Relations at TVA, objecting to TVA’s approach and tactics.

Quote:

“Why don’t you show up with a cold can of Coca Cola and a hamburger… Treat people like Americans.” — John Rich (12:51)

• Rich decried “lip service and double talk” from TVA officials and stressed the need for persistent public scrutiny.

6. Outcome and Looking Forward

• TVA announced, “based upon feedback received” during public scoping, they were abandoning the Cheatham County site as the preferred alternative.
• Attkisson notes the decision only changed after Rich and Trump intervened—not after years of public protest.

7. The Power of Music and Protest

• Inspired by the events, Rich wrote “The Devil and the TVA,” echoing “Paradise (Muhlenberg County)” by John Prine.
• Lyrics drawn from actual community testimonies, including a striking line from Mrs. Nicholson, a local resident.

Quote (16:08):

“You think you own something, but you don’t own nothing when the government man comes around…” — John Rich, quoting from his new song

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On TVA’s Unique Power:

  “The authority that TVA was given is really different than any other government agency… You don’t have to adhere to local zoning laws.” — John Rich (04:03)

• On How Bureaucracy Disconnects From the People:

  “That’s where the leverage to the citizen has… when it comes to TVA, they do not have to adhere to zoning.” — John Rich (05:21)

• On Activism:

  “I became an investigative journalist. Kind of like what you do.” — John Rich (09:36)

• On the Song’s Message:

  “You think you own something, but you don’t own nothing when the government man comes around… the devil ain’t got nothing on the TVA.” — John Rich (16:08)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Background on TVA: 02:03–05:21
• Local Impact & TVA’s Irresponsibility: 05:21–08:57
• Involvement of Trump Administration: 09:36–12:51
• Personal Encounters with TVA Leadership: 12:51–13:31
• Call for Reform & Citizen Advocacy: 13:31–15:06
• Writing “The Devil and the TVA” Song: 15:12–17:16
• Host’s Wrap-up and Episode Impact: 17:25–end

---

Tone and Closing Thoughts

The tone is passionate, down-to-earth, and defiant—channeling both John Rich’s “country boy” roots and Attkisson’s investigative rigor. The episode frames the story as a blueprint for citizen action against powerful but unaccountable government agencies, highlighting the unique American tradition of local resistance and public advocacy.

Final Note:
The TVA ultimately backed off its Cheatham County plans after years of community struggle, but the hosts make clear that persistent citizen engagement—amplified by public figures—was the key to success. As Rich asserts, the American citizen must always “be the boss.”

Transcript

[VRBO Announcer]

With savings over $390 this shopping season, VRBO helps you swap gift wrap time for quality time with those you love most. From snow on the roof to sand between your toes. We have all the vacation rental options covered. Go to VRBO now and book a last minute week long stay. Save over $390 this holiday season and book your next vacation rental home on VRBO. Average savings $396. Select homes only.

[Cheryl Akeson]

Hi everybody, Cheryl Acheson here. Welcome to another edition of Full Measure After Hours. Today, a true Grapes of Wrath playing out in Tennessee and how country music star John Rich stepped in to save the day. I started covering the story a couple of months back on my podcast interviewing country music star John Rich about how he'd inserted himself into a controversy in Tennessee in order to stand up for residents and farm owners against the government agency, the tva. I think I learned a little bit about the TVA at elementary school or maybe junior high and then never really thought much about it after that. But it has stirred up a lot of scandal over the years. It's a secretive multi billion dollar federal agency, a power company servicing seven states that answers only to the President, led by a CEO who was making 26 times more than the President of the United States. That salary was $10.5 million a year, making the recent former CEO of the Tennessee Valley Authority likely the highest paid government employee in the US this will be the topic of my cover story this week on Full Measure. But today in this podcast I the full interview with John Rich.

[John Rich]

John Rich J O H N R I C H and then just can.

[Interviewer]

You summarize how you got interested in this issue?

[John Rich]

So I've been a resident in Cheatham county for a very long time. I actually went to high school in Cheatham County, 9th, 10th and 11th grade when we moved here from Texas. I grew up in Amarillo, Texas, but my family originated a lot of them in the middle Tennessee area. So my teenage years right here in Cheatham county and knowing the neighbors, knowing the culture around here, these are blue collar, hard working farm, lower to middle income type farmer communities. And my brother's a farmer here. My younger brother, he has a farm. My dad has a blueberry farm here, small one. These are not like your big rich farmers. These are, these are micro farms and smaller farms. So just having a love for the county and a love for the people and roots down in here. When I learned the story of the treachery that was going on with tva, it got my attention very quickly.

[Interviewer]

For people who have no introduction into what the Tennessee Valley Authority does. And what's going on here? What is this? What is a simple and concise way you would summarize it?

[John Rich]

Tennessee Valley Authority was started 1933 by Franklin Delano Roosevelt. It was started. It's got the word authority attached to it. So it was started where they really only answered to the president. The president hires that board. He's the only one that can really fire that board. And what they did was they were tasked with building dams. They were building roads and infrastructure, all kinds of stuff. This is, you know, right after. And actually kind of still during the Great Depression. So there was a lot of things in the south that needed to be done. So TVA was put together to improve the land and create more power generation so the south could expand and grow.

[Interviewer]

And then what does it become today? What would you say is the heart of the issue now?

[John Rich]

So the authority that TVA was given is really different than any other government agency. So they're not even really technically a government agency, even though they are federal. They're also private. So, for instance, TVA makes their money not through tax dollars, but through electric bills. So when you're in Tennessee and you pay your electric bill, that money is finding its way back to the TVA. TVA last year profited about $13 billion. I mean, they are a massive, massive thing, but they're also federal. So it's this real hybrid kind of a situation that nobody really knows how to influence them or how to. How to get them to listen or get them to not do something or to do something. Including U.S. senators. Senior U.S. senators that I've been friends with a long time on this Cheatham county situation told me we were begging them to pull out of this project in Cheatham County. And they just said, sorry. I mean, they don't have to listen to governors, they don't have to listen to senators, congressmen. They only have to listen to the president.

[Interviewer]

States, ideally, this agency, I would guess, is formulated to serve the public and do things in the public interest. Are you saying you feel as though over the decades this has become a different animal and kind of gone rogue? And to what end? What purpose does it serve now?

[John Rich]

Yeah, there are things TVA has done over the decades that have helped. And then there's things they've done that have been absolute disasters and destruction. The rogue part comes into the fact that they don't have to adhere, for instance, to local zoning laws. So if you take a private energy company, let's say Duke Energy, which is a really big one. If Duke Energy wanted to come into Cheatham county and build something like a methane plant, like what TVA wanted to do, Duke would have to come before the city council. They would have to abide by the zoning laws in that county. And then that city council could decide, you know what, we're going to let you do it, or you know what? We're not. Now why does that give leverage to the citizen? Because that city council and those mayors were voted in by their constituents. So if they do something that the constituents absolutely don't want, what happens to the politician? They're out. And so that's the leverage that the citizen has when it comes to tva. They do not have to adhere to zoning. That's where that federal part comes in. The eminent domain control that they have, the levers they have to pull are really unlike any other energy company in America.

[Interviewer]

Some people perhaps would say, well, we need energy, they have to build plants. Nobody's going to be happy in general where they build a plant. What is your answer to that?

[John Rich]

Well, that's patently not true because we've already identified places. For instance, there's two coal plants in Tennessee right now that TVA is trying to convert into what they would refer to as green energy. So the TVA is really still operating under the Obama and Biden directives, not Trump. And I think that's one reason why the President is now weighing in so heavily against the tva. They are still carrying out the mission that was given prior to Trump being in office. There's a place in New Johnsonville, Tennessee which is out on the Tennessee River. And I heard about this place. It was a massive coal fired plant. When I say massive, I mean one of the biggest ones ever built in American history was out there sending power across not only Tennessee, but it was, you know, they're in seven different states. The tva. Obama ordered that coal fire plant to not only be shuttered, but to be erased. I mean, they tore the whole thing down and hauled it off. And I asked the guys, the mayors and the counties out there, I said, well, why on earth would TVA not just go build something massive over there? If they want methane plants, I mean, you could build a hundred times the infrastructure is what they want to do in Cheatham County. Why wouldn't TVA just do it over there? And every single time I asked that to any politician, local politician, they said, TVA won't answer that question. I said, well, I want to go see it myself. So there's a friend of mine named Jody Barrett who is represents District 69 here in Tennessee. He's a state representative. And I asked Jody, can you get me over to that spot in New Johnsonville? He said yes. We drove my truck out there, got on a boat, went up the river, and I'm looking at this massive piece of land. Cheryl and I asked the mayors, I said, how big is that where the coal plant was? They said, it's almost 800 acres. And I said, isn't there 640 acres in a square mile? They said, yeah, I think it's about that. I said, so that's over a square mile of property that already has transmission lines, already has gas lines running to Nashville. All this infrastructure is there. Why on earth would TVA not do that? Why are they coming to Cheatham county and trying to tear this place the smithereens? And they said they won't answer that question.

[Shopify Announcer]

Shopify's point of sale system helps you sell at every stage of your business. Need a fast and secure way to take payments in person. We've got you covered. How about card readers you can rely on anywhere you sell.

[Interviewer]

Thanks.

[Shopify Announcer]

Have a good one. Yep, that too. Want one place to manage all your online and in person sales? That's kind of our thing. Wherever you sell. Businesses that grow grow with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 a month [e-mail] Listen. Shopify.com Listen.

[Interviewer]

What is your understanding of what's happened since you've drawn attention to this? Is the plant now not going to be built here?

[John Rich]

So as I began to interview neighbors, I came here to Nanette's house, I went to George Wade's house. I started just really showing up with a selfie stick and a, an iPhone. I became an investigative journalist. Kind of like what you do. And I just wanted to get their stories and just put it on X and let people just see what's going on. Hoping that the citizens could push back against TVA without the help of President Trump and be able to make the TVA just say, okay, it's not worth it. We'll go somewhere else that we actually should be. Well, by doing that, Secretary Rollins of the USDA saw one of my posts, reached out to me and said, hey, how much farmland is involved in this site? Like when they start running these lines, how much farmland is that going to tear up? Well, the neighbors here in Cheatham county had those maps and it was close to 6,000 acres of farmland. In those, in those acres were five or six. What we call Century Farms. So these are farms that have been in the same family for over a century. As that started to progress, Brooke Rollins, Secretary Rollins replied to one of my posts on X and something to the effect of, I'm on it. And I went, oh, what does that mean, I'm on it? Well, that began a conversation with she and I, and she said, yeah, this can't happen. We can't lose all this farmland. This is a really bad idea. That then got on the radar of President Trump. That's when he started to weigh in.

[Interviewer]

And did you call him or he called you and what did he say?

[John Rich]

I texted the President and I said, we've got a real problem going on with TVA down here. You should probably speak to Secretary Rollins about it. She's up to speed. Or give me a call. Well, you know, he's trying to stop World War iii. He's got a lot of things going on. So he, he said, you got it. And then he, he consulted with Secretary Rawlin, said, what's going on? And then within about two weeks of that, I get word President Trump's going to stop this. He's not going to allow them to go forward with this. You're correct. That is a horrible idea. There are other places to do it. There's two other coal plants in Tennessee right now. Like I said, TVA is trying to turn into green energy. Why are they shuttering those? Those don't need to be shuttered. I've now connected with the Secretary of Energy's office. Secretary Wright's office had zoom calls with them. They go, yeah, this whole thing is a debacle. We want. Why are we shutting down coal plants? That's part of the war on coal that's left over from former administrations. This is the Trump administration. That's not how we're doing it. So I think this little Cheatham county story really represents a much bigger picture for American energy, for how citizens get treated. That's the big thing for me is you don't treat citizens like that in the United States of America. I remember asking the senior Vice President of Government Relations, Justin Meyerhofer for the tva. He came to my house to have a talk with me and we talked for about 30 minutes. And I said, justin, you can't treat people like that. You cannot show up on old ladies properties with guns and bulletproof vests demanding to come on their property. I said, that's Fourth Amendment we've got. You have to have a warrant and probable cause. The atf, the FBI, Anybody would have. The local sheriff would have to have probable cause and a warrant to do what you guys are doing every single day.

[Interviewer]

What did he say?

[John Rich]

He said, well, I mean, you know, sometimes we get people that resist a little bit. We just got to make sure everybody's safe. I said, yeah, I bet they do resist. When you, when you show up with guns and bulletproof vests. I said, why don't you show up with a cold can of Coca Cola and a hamburger and some popcorn and sit down and go, hey, let's talk about what we might need to build like, treat people like Americans. Well, he was nothing but lip service and double talk, which just angered me further. And I decided, listen, this has to be done. It's bigger than Cheatham county, probably won't win. They're probably going to do it anyway. But we have got to put up a fight, and everybody in this county put up a fight.

[Interviewer]

What do you see as the future for you when we're looking at the bigger picture on the Tennessee Valley Authority?

[John Rich]

You know, the thing that fires me up the most are American citizens and not a big fan of the federal government. It's doing better with Trump as the president. But in general, the American citizen is the boss. You don't get to treat people like that. You know, I'd love to be considered for some type of role as, like a citizen advocate when it comes to this. When it comes to tva, I think, you know, X, an iPhone and a selfie stick, that's all I had. But what they were doing was so egregious and rubbed against the grain of the, of the general Americans so hard that they had no way to defend it, no way to comment on it. They knew how bad that was and they had to back up. There was nothing they could do. They can only do things like that if it's done in private and down in the shadows. So I would like a big spotlight to be able just to keep it on them, keep it on them. Everything they're doing. If it's wrong, it's wrong. If they do something good, put a spotlight on that. I really think that the new board that's coming into the TVA that's being currently appointed by President Trump, if those men and women decide to, they can change the charter of the TVA for the first time since 1933. They can put a heart and soul into the TVA for the first time ever in its existence. They can build the infrastructure that needs to be built for this country. With our growing country and Treat the American citizen fairly. They can both be done at the same time.

[Interviewer]

And lastly, tell me about the song that you wrote and hopefully we'll be able to use a piece of that in our story.

[John Rich]

Music is my weapon of choice and I decided there needs to be a song written about this. To me, it's like Muhlenberg county when you hear that old song, Daddy, won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County? John Prine. I said we need a modern day version of that. And this Cheatham county story, this David and Goliath story, it's a song. And so I wrote a song called the Devil and the TVA because that's how they operate and that's how they're thought of. By the way, if you ask a citizen down through here what's your thoughts on the tva, they won't say anything you could show on television, put it that way. So the song's coming out. There's a whole music video I've already shot for it. And it's. Yeah, it's me performing and driving these back roads. But a lot of it is content that Nanette put together that she just went out and took videos of farmers and families and people. There's houses everywhere out here. They were getting ready to drop this bomb right in the middle of five school districts, a water supply at about 450 houses. So she's got all that footage. So it's been really cool to work with neighbors, like locals on a music video. How cool is. I've never done that. So it's about as authentic as it gets. And I hope that it leads to big changes at the tva. The lyrics of the chorus start off with the words that Mrs. Nicholson said into the camera when she snapped out of her dementia for about 10 seconds. She looked in the camera when she realized what they were about to do to her property and said, you think you own something, you don't know nothing. The first line of the chorus to the Devil in the TVA is, you think you own something but you don't own nothing when the government man comes around Puts his dirty old boots on your ground and laughs at your protest With a gun and a bulletproof vest he don't care what you have to say he's just gonna do it anyway and he'll smile and grin and then take your farm away he'll tear it all to hell right in your face. Yeah, the devil ain't got nothing on the TVA that's the chorus.

[Cheryl Akeson]

Good.

[John Rich]

That's how country boys like to fight.

[Cheryl Akeson]

So to be clear, the tva, after John Rich's intervention and Donald Trump's intervention, announced a sudden, huge change. They issued a statement saying that based upon feedback received in response to TVA's public scoping process and at board listening sessions with input from the TVA Board of directors, the site off Lockersville Road is no longer TVA's preferred alternative. Now, they say that was a result of this recent feedback or something. But really, this controversy had been going on for years with neighbors pushing back and kind of yelling and screaming in lawsuits to no avail until John Rich got involved. So it looks like that was really the determining factor in all of this. It really is a fascinating story. And this Sunday on Full Measure in the report, you'll also hear from neighbors who fought or who John Rich fought alongside. We'll also hear the TVA's position more about that, although they wouldn't agree to an interview. And you'll get to see the pretty land in the rolling hills of Tennessee. So I hope you'll tune in and watch it that Sunday. You can go to cherylakkeson.com and click the Full Measure tab for a list of stations and times, or go to FullMeasure News online around 11 in the morning Sundays, that's Eastern Time to watch a live feed of the program or replays at FullMeasure News anytime. And now our YouTube channel, FullMeasure is there. If that's an easier place for you to watch replays of this program or any of our other programs over the past 10 seasons. We're now in season 11. I hope you enjoyed today's podcast and that you will consider leaving us a great review, subscribing and sharing it with your friends. Check out my other podcast, the Cheryl Akisson Podcast, and to support independent journalism while getting some really crucial information, I hope you will check out my latest bestseller, follow the How Big Pharma Misleads, Obscures, and Prevails and you can pick up some selections at the Cheryl Akisson Store. Again, proceeds supporting independent journalism. Go to Cheryl Akkeson.com and click the Store tab for some clever products designed exclusively for independent thinkers like you, with slogans such as I need to find some new conspiracy theories, all my old ones came true and do your own research, make up your own mind, think for yourself.