After Hours: The Surprising Truth About Post-Castro Cuba (From the Archives)

Summary

Full Measure After Hours: The Surprising Truth About Post-Castro Cuba

Episode Release Date: December 12, 2024

Host: Sharyl Attkisson

Guest: Carlos Fernando DiCosio, Vice Minister of Foreign Affairs, Cuba

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Introduction

In this special Archives Edition of Full Measure After Hours, host Sharyl Attkisson explores the intricate and enduring relationship between the United States and Cuba. The episode, titled "The Surprising Truth About Post-Castro Cuba," features an in-depth interview with Carlos Fernando DiCosio, Cuba’s Vice Minister of Foreign Affairs. DiCosio provides a comprehensive perspective on the longstanding US embargo, Cuba's international relations, human rights discussions, and the island nation's future trajectory.

US Embargo on Cuba

A central theme of the episode is the US embargo against Cuba, a policy that has significantly impacted the Cuban economy and its people for over six decades. DiCosio criticizes the United States for its inconsistent justifications for maintaining the embargo:

"The US has had a changing goalpost during the years. Many years ago it was our presence in Africa and solidarity with the peoples of Africa, then that we supported countries in Central America... The real aim seems to be a failure by powerful groups in the United States to accept or to understand that Cuba is and has the right to be an independent country."
– Carlos Fernando DiCosio [02:15]

He explains that the US has shifted its reasons for the embargo over time, never addressing the core issue of Cuban sovereignty and economic independence.

Post-Castro Cuban Government

DiCosio addresses misconceptions about the Castro family's current role in Cuban governance:

"Fidel Castro passed away seven years ago, but he has been out of the government for 17 years... Raul Castro is not president since 2018, and he doesn't even lead the party since 2021."
– Carlos Fernando DiCosio [04:55]

He emphasizes that the Castros no longer hold executive power, challenging the US narrative that ties the embargo to their leadership.

Relationship with the Soviet Union and China

The discussion transitions to Cuba's historical and present international alliances. DiCosio recounts Cuba's dependence on the Soviet Union during the Cold War and the subsequent shift after its dissolution:

"It began when the US said that they would not buy Cuban sugar anymore... The Soviet Union said, 'We'll buy it,' and 'We'll sell you oil.'"
– Carlos Fernando DiCosio [07:01]

He further elaborates on Cuba's relationship with China, stating:

"We buy a lot of products from China... It's a normal relationship, as we've had with Canada, as we have with European countries."
– Carlos Fernando DiCosio [17:58]

DiCosio dismisses allegations of Cuba hosting Chinese military bases, labeling them as unfounded:

"It's totally untrue. We've told the US Government... it's a fabrication."
– Carlos Fernando DiCosio [16:55]

Human Rights and Protests

Addressing US critiques regarding human rights, particularly referencing the July 11 protests in Cuba, DiCosio provides a counter-narrative:

"Most of them did it peacefully... Only a small group, maybe about a thousand, practiced vandalism and violence."
– Carlos Fernando DiCosio [14:48]

He draws parallels to US events, questioning the consistency of US criticism:

"In the US on January 6, many people went to protest... some have been prosecuted, some with sentences as large as 18 years without any violence or critical violence being committed."
– Carlos Fernando DiCosio [14:48]

US Designation of Cuba as a Terrorist State

The episode delves into the contentious issue of Cuba’s inclusion on US terrorism lists. DiCosio explains the origins and implications of this designation:

"Cuba was hiding a group of representatives of the ELN... The list is totally arbitrary and has no legitimacy."
– Carlos Fernando DiCosio [11:36] & [12:45]

He highlights the negative economic repercussions of this designation, noting that it discourages international financial institutions from engaging with Cuba.

Economic Impact of the Embargo

DiCosio underscores the embargo's crippling effect on Cuba's economy despite the nation's achievements in various sectors:

"The US embargo... is the main hurdle that we need to overcome for our development and the progress of our country."
– Carlos Fernando DiCosio [07:52]

He advocates for lifting the embargo, suggesting that a two-year suspension could allow Cuba to demonstrate significant economic progress, as partially seen during the Obama administration’s limited exceptions:

"In 2015 and 16, the Obama government introduced very limited exceptions... private investment began to grow, activity in the country, that the standard of living in the population grew."
– Carlos Fernando DiCosio [07:52]

Conclusion and Final Insights

In his closing remarks, DiCosio reflects on the broader implications of US policies and internal American issues:

"I am very concerned with the lack of information that Americans receive about Cuba... I think there’s a level of contempt in the capacity of US public opinion in interpreting by themselves."
– Carlos Fernando DiCosio [19:25]

He criticizes the polarization and wealth concentration in the United States, suggesting these factors contribute to the strained US-Cuba relations:

"With the increased concentration of wealth in just 1 or 2% of Americans that have grown dramatically since 1980... that’s a huge problem."
– Carlos Fernando DiCosio [19:25]

DiCosio calls for Americans to experience Cuba firsthand to form their own opinions, advocating for the removal of travel prohibitions:

"Americans should ask their government to allow them to freely travel to Cuba and allow them for themselves to judge reality."
– Carlos Fernando DiCosio [20:35]

Notable Quotes

• On Shifting US Justifications:

  "The real aim seems to be a failure by powerful groups in the United States to accept or to understand that Cuba is and has the right to be an independent country."
  – Carlos Fernando DiCosio [02:15]

• On Post-Castro Leadership:

  "Raul Castro is not president since 2018, and he doesn't even lead the party since 2021."
  – Carlos Fernando DiCosio [04:55]

• On Alleged Terrorist Activities:

  "It's totally untrue. We've told the US Government... it's a fabrication."
  – Carlos Fernando DiCosio [16:55]

• On Human Rights Criticism:

  "Why does the United States feel it has the authority to condemn Cuba and not look inside? What is happening in the United States?"
  – Carlos Fernando DiCosio [14:48]

• On the Economic Embargo:

  "The US embargo... is the main hurdle that we need to overcome for our development and the progress of our country."
  – Carlos Fernando DiCosio [07:52]

Final Thoughts

Host Sharyl Attkisson concludes the episode by highlighting the critical insights shared by DiCosio. She emphasizes the importance of understanding the Cuban perspective and encourages listeners to seek out the full report airing on November 19th. Attkisson also promotes her platform for supporting independent journalism, inviting listeners to engage further through reviews, subscriptions, and merchandise.

This episode of Full Measure After Hours provides a thorough examination of the multifaceted US-Cuba relationship, challenging prevailing narratives and offering a Cuban governmental viewpoint on enduring diplomatic tensions. By presenting DiCosio’s perspectives, Attkisson fosters a deeper understanding of the complexities surrounding post-Castro Cuba and its quest for economic and political autonomy.

Transcript

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[Cheryl Atkison]

Hi everybody, Cheryl Atkison here. I hope you enjoy this special from the Archives edition of Full Measure After Hours. Hi everybody, Cheryl Atkison here. Welcome to another edition of Full Measure After Hours. You know Cuba is America's closest adversary in terms of sheer proximity. Today a visit to the Communist island nation to hear their government's view of the long standing US Embargo. How it really came about, Cuba's relationship with China, threats to the US and what happens next Sunday, November 19th is my cover story on Cuba Post Castro and the rocky relationship between Cuba and the US and what it's done to Cuba and the Cuban people. Why is it we still have an embargo against Cuba that cripples the communist island and the people who live there? Why do they get the tough treatment that we don't give to Communist China or Communist Vietnam even after Castro is long gone from Cuba? In today's podcast you're going to get to hear the modern Cuban government viewpoint from Carlos Fernando Dicosio, Vice Minister of Foreign Affairs. I begin by asking him what's his understanding of what the US says would have to change in Cuba for the embargo to be lifted or for there to be a different economic relationship? Here is Carlos Fernando DiCosio.

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

The US has had a changing goalpost during the years. Many years ago it was our presence in Africa and solidarity with the peoples of Africa, then that we supported countries in Central America. At another moment that we had a relationship with the Soviet Union that doesn't exist. It has been changing the goal post then because we didn't have enough Internet, then because we didn't have enough of a private sector. So they changed the goalpost. The real aim seems to be a failure by powerful groups in the United States to accept or to understand that Cuba is and has the right to be an independent country. And there's an aim to control our economy.

[Interviewer]

Can you explain that in sort of a summarized version? Prior to the change and the revolution and so on, Cuba was almost a satellite of the United States for a time. Is that accurate?

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

Yes. We were a neocolon in the United States. They owned most of the land, most of the wealth, most of the utilities. They had the capacity to put and take out whichever government they existed. And they were the ones who legitimized what government could exist or perform in Cuba.

[Interviewer]

What time period did it change where the Cuban people decided to make it, where they weren't really such an a satellite of the United States, but more independent.

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

There was a growing the spirit or motivation by the population to change that reality. But at the end of the 50s, and there was a dictator called Fulencio Batista put in place by the US that dramatized things, it made it critical. And that led to a rebellion that introduced a new government set to transform the reality of the country.

[Interviewer]

Is it fair to say you think that the United States was dramatically impacted by the change in Cuba? Because a lot of private companies had a lot of business going on here, and as a result, the companies were shut down and operations were totally changed.

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

The commitment to achieve full independence, to regain the wealth of the country, to ensure social justice for the population, led us to redistribute wealth and to redistribute property in the country. Inevitably, it put us in a collision course with the US not because of design, but because the United States was over most of the wealth in the country, including the casinos, hotels and other facilities that were owned by the mob in the United States. And that put us in a collision course.

[Interviewer]

It seemed to me over the years a lot of discussion was over Fidel Castro and the Castros. But are the Castros entirely gone from government now?

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

Fidel Castro passed away seven years ago, but he has been out of the government for 17 years, since 2006. And Raul Castro, who replaced him, is not president since 2018, and he doesn't even lead the party since 2021. So even though Raul Castro is recognized as a leading figure in the country, he doesn't have a role in the government beyond being a legislator, but he has no active role in the thing. So the excuse of the United States that the Fidel capstone first and the capstors in pro were the obstacle for the relationship again has been proven to be pretext because they're not in government anymore and they continue to have the same kind of economic warfare against Cuba.

[Interviewer]

What do you suspect, if you don't think the true reasons are the reasons given. What do you suspect are the true reasons? The United States has the policies that.

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

It does an aim to control the fate and the destination of Cuba and as I said at the beginning, the failure to recognize that we have the right to have our own government in the way we feel and to carry out a system of economy and policy which ensures social justice, which we call socialism. We don't do it against the United States. We do it for the benefit of the people of Cuba.

[Interviewer]

Do you see any merit to the argument that in the United States there may be concern with Cuba so very close to our shores, that Cuba has close relationships with countries that are considered adversaries, such as Russia and China?

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

There's no evidence to prove that the US Government, the people in the government have raised it, but there's no evidence of any hostile or offensive activity by the Russia, China or any country that the United States would think is an adversary against the United States. The United States would have it. They would have taken action on it. It hasn't occurred, but it serves as an excuse for those that do not want any progress in the bilateral relationship.

[Interviewer]

Can you explain how the Soviet relationship came to be when the United States relationship changed?

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

It began when the. So the US Said that they would not buy Cuban sugar anymore. We didn't know where to sell it. It was the only crop that Cuba could export. And the Soviet Union says, we'll buy it. So we sold it. Then the US Refused to sell oil, and the Soviets said, we'll sell you oil. Then the US Companies said, we won't refine the refineries that owned by the US And Cuba refused to refine. So we always said, okay, we'll intervene them. And so we came to help. So it was a relationship that helped Cuba at a moment where we had nowhere to turn. And they expressed a lot of solidarity with our country at the time, and they became quite a good partner. And that lasted during the Soviet Union. And that kind of relationship ended in 1990 with the former Soviet Union.

[Interviewer]

How do you suspect Cuba would look today if not for the embargo?

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

That's what we would like to see. The U.S. embargo, or U.S. blockade, as we call it, is today. The main hurdle that we need to overcome for our development and for the progress of our country. In spite of it existing in with an overwhelming impact. For the past 60 years, Cuba has been able to excel in areas that other countries haven't in terms of scientific development, transformation of the economy. Wellbeing, of the population. Even though Cubans, anyone who would visit a country would know that we live a very modest life, that our infrastructure needs a lot of investment in it, that we have lots of problems or economy. What I would put to a test, allow the US to lift the embargo for just two years, just two years and measure where Cuba can be done that. In 2015 and 16, the Obama government introduced very limited exceptions to the US economic blockade. And nobody would argue that at the time the Cuba Cuban economy flourished, that private investment began to grow, activity in the country, that the standard of living in the population grew. And that was just two years with very, very limited exceptions. So I would put that to a test.

[Interviewer]

So you started to touch on it. But can you just, can you describe the relationship with Cuba under Obama, Trump and Biden?

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

At the end of his administration, the Obama government introduced changes. The most important one was that it formalized diplomatic relations that continue to exist today. The Trump government didn't change that, but then introduced very mild exceptions in the overwhelming economic embargo that had a positive impact and also progressed in the area of cooperation, of areas of mutual interest. The Trump administration set back those exceptions, reduced the amount the level of dialogue between the two countries, and practically shut down any cooperation between the two governments. The Biden administration has continued to apply the economic measures of Donald Trump. In other words, it has not reintroduced the exceptions of the Obama government. I would say that it has rather applied with a lot of loyalty the measures taken by the Trump government. But it has reintroduced a level of diplomatic dialogue and the channels of communication which are important, and restored some of the areas of cooperation, basically migration, which is of interest to both countries, law enforcement, environment, including terrorism, which is paradoxical because the United States has Cuba in the list of countries that allegedly sponsor tourism.

[Interviewer]

When did that go into effect?

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

It went into effect 11 days before the Trump administration left the government and refused the pressure. It resisted the pressure to do so until the end. But the one that has been applying the impact and the consequences of being that list is a democratic government, even though it shouted very loudly when Trump reintroduced us in that list.

[Interviewer]

Does Cuba support terrorist states or terrorist activities?

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

We do not. We condemn terrorism in all its forms by whoever practices, for whatever reason, in whatever way. We have been a victim of terrorism. We know what it means. We have thousands of deaths and people have been mutilated and damaged to our country as a victim of terrorism. So we condemn it. We are very active, cooperating in all the forms, international forms, and we have signed any international instrument linked to terrorism.

[Interviewer]

Was a reason given for the appearance of Cuba on the terrorist list and was a goalpost set for how to get off of it?

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

Yes, it was because Cuba was hiding Cuba. A group of representatives of the eln, which is a guerrilla group for Colombia, that were in Cuba upon a request of the Colombian government for peace cooperation and on the basis of protocols that needed to be met. Cuba was a grantor of that process, so we had to respect them. When the government of Colombia decided to suspend the dialogues, they demanded for those people to be returned. We said, there are international protocols that we signed that we cannot go back on, that we received the support of Norway as a partner of anyone who participated in the process, supported Cuba's position, and thanks to that position, the new governor of Colombia reintroduced a dialogue and they're going on now. Thanks to Cuba's position, the Colombian government has requested, the European Union has requested, all of the governments of Latin America and the Caribbean have requested the US Government to take Cuba out of that list. And yet, because the excuse that was used was proven false, yet we continue to be there and there's no excuse.

[Interviewer]

Today, how does that further limit things beyond what they were already limited?

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

It has a huge impact in Cuban economic activity in every country around the world. Because no bank institution, no financial institution would like to be accused of being cooperating with a country that is in the list of allegedly sponsoring terrorism, that would have for them an impact in the US Economy or the threat of having an impact. And that has a because the list is totally arbitrary and has no legitimacy. But the US Economy has a huge impact around the world. It has a capacity to threaten and to punish and others don't want to run that risk.

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[Interviewer]

Democrats and Republicans alike have joined to criticize Cuba on a number of fronts, including alleged human rights abuses. One example they give is the July 11 protests. They say there are still many people imprisoned unjustifiably.

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

It is difficult to gauge how many people went out on the street to protest that day. Some say 15, 20, let's say 25,000. Most of them did it peacefully. A small group, maybe about a thousand, practicing vandalism, violence, inciting violence, attacking police stations, burning cars. Those were prosecuted. Most of them went to jail. Not all. Most of them went to jail because some receive other type of sanctions. Of those, perhaps about half have already been released. But it is not true to claim that people were put in prison because they went peacefully out to protest or because of what they thought, because the great majority of those never saw policemen, were never interrogated, never saw a police station. It is a claim used to try to punish Cuba and to justify actions against Cuba. Some of them remain in prison because the sentence have not been have gone through. But in the US on January 6, many people went to protest in the United States. I would suspect the great majority of them peacefully that were protesting the government, and many have been prosecuted, some being sent to jail, some with sentences as large as 18 years without any violence or critical violence being committed. So why does the United States feel it has the authority to condemn Cuba and not look inside? What is happening in the United States?

[Interviewer]

And then on the issue, I have just a couple more questions and then if you want to add anything I didn't touch upon, you can add it in the news in the United States. There is a lot about China and concerns and allegations that China has already been operating some sort of base or surveillance operation out of Cuba and plans to have some sort of larger operation out of Cuba. Is that true?

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

That came out in a story that was published by the Wall Street Journal and that has been repeated. No evidence has been put in place.

[Interviewer]

I mean, no evidence. But is it true?

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

It is totally untrue. We've told the US Government, we've spoken with them. We said more. We said that Cuba is a country under aggression from the United States, that we have the right to defend ourselves, that we have the right to establish defense cooperation with other governments. And we don't have to give excuses for that. Now, that being understood, what has been proclaimed, it's totally untrue. It's a fabrication. Again, as others that have happened, the many that have happened in History to try to make it impossible for the progress in the relationship between our two governments.

[Interviewer]

Aside from a defense cooperation or a supposed spy base of some kind or military base, is there increasing cooperation between Cuba and China? Cuba has really. I'm sorry, China has really made a lot of inroads in many countries where the United States has perhaps stepped back economically and China has come in and provided infrastructure, help and all kinds of things. Is that happening in Cuba as well?

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

It's happening perhaps in a lesser level than other countries in Latin America and. But it's a good relationship. Most of our relationship is trade. We buy a lot of products for industry in China. If we couldn't buy them in the United States, it's much closer and perhaps cheaper. But the US Laws prohibited we have to buy a lot in China. They give us financing and they have invested in some infrastructure, for example, in an important plant for addition, for news addition and printing, I think in the rail in some industries. But it's a normal relationship, as we've had with Canada, as we have with European countries, as we would have with the United States if it were to be possible. I just say Cuba is not a threat to the United States. Cuba is not by far an enemy of the United States. There's no animosity. You can walk the streets of Cuba, talk with our people. And in spite of the difficult relationship, despite all the hostility that we have been, that's where we have suffered for many years. You will not find animosity or ill feeling from the people of Cuba to Americas. Our two countries could have a respectful relationship in spite of our differences. And I would think it would be beneficial for Cuba, without a doubt. And we think it would be beneficial for Americans too.

[Interviewer]

What do you think when you watch what you know of what's going on in America? What are your reflections today?

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

I was thinking with my mindset in Cuba, I am very concerned with the lack of information that Americans receive about Cuba, how much distorted information they receive, what's being packaged toward them. And I think that there's a level of contempt in the capacity of US public opinion in interpreting by themselves. And that is a huge concern for us. It's difficult for us to overcome that barrier. And sometimes I see in the US a society that is polarization and violence is increasing and a lot has to do, in my opinion. But this is a personal opinion. With the increased concentration of wealth in just 1 or 2% of Americans that have grown dramatically since 1980 until today, and that's a huge problem that will have consequences socially, politically, in different terms.

[Interviewer]

Americans will hear you say one thing and the United States government say something else. What are they to make of the two entirely different pictures being portrayed?

[Carlos Fernando DiCosio]

They would have to look at it for themselves. Cubans are not prohibited to travel to the U.S. americans are prohibited to travel to Cuba. Americans should ask their government to allow them to freely travel to Cuba and allow them for themselves to judge reality, not to have to ask for permission to see if it's granted or run the risk of being punished for exercising the wish to visit another country and learn by themselves.

[Cheryl Atkison]

That was Carlos Fernando Dicosio, Vice Minister of Foreign affairs, who I met with on a recent trip to Cuba. We waited a couple of years for the visa to be issued from Cuba. As a journalist doing work there, you have to have their permission to come in and do news stories. We finally got it. The United States does not allow tourists to visit Cuba openly. Cuba allows it, but it's forbidden by the United States under the current rules. If you'd like to see my full report on Cuba, post Castro and some of the color and flavor that we saw and experienced, you can watch Full measure on a TV station near you on Sunday, November 19th. For a station list, go to cherylakison.com and click the Full Measure page. Or if you don't have a station near you, you can always go to FullMeasure News online. FullMeasure News and about 9:30 9:32 Eastern Time, the program will be posted there and replays anytime. So let's say Sunday night you remember this or you're listening to this. Some days later you can still go to FullMeasure News and watch the Cuba Story. I hope you enjoyed today's podcast and that if you did, you'll leave a great review. Subscribe to this podcast and share it with your friends. And if you like this sort of material, check out my other podcast, the Cheryl Atkinson Podcast. The holidays will be here before you know it, and I have a great way that you can support independent journalism and find cool gifts for independent thinkers like you. Go to cherylakison.com and click on the Store tab. You'll see products with clever slogans that show people where you stand, such as I need to find some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones came true and do your own research, make up your own mind, think for yourself.