The Whistleblowers v. The Big Guy

Summary

Full Measure After Hours – Episode Summary

Podcast: Full Measure After Hours
Episode: The Whistleblowers v. The Big Guy
Date: March 19, 2026
Host: Sharyl Attkisson
Guest: Joseph Ziegler (IRS Criminal Investigator, Whistleblower)

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Episode Overview

This episode features a deep-dive update with Joseph Ziegler, one of the IRS whistleblowers who exposed political interference in the Hunter Biden tax investigation. Host Sharyl Attkisson and Ziegler discuss the rarely positive outcomes for whistleblowers, changes in their professional circumstances, and their new book "The Whistleblowers vs. The Big Guy." The conversation details institutional barriers in investigating politically sensitive cases, personal and professional repercussions, and the broader implications for government accountability.

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Key Discussion Points

The Genesis of the Hunter Biden Investigation

• Initiation and Discovery ([01:21]–[04:58])
  • Ziegler recounts how, in 2018, as a regular part of his job, he came across suspicious bank reports mentioning Hunter Biden and potential tax fraud.
  • Initial clues included public records from Hunter’s divorce, unfiled tax returns, questionable earnings, and red flags involving foreign transactions and Russian prostitutes.
  • The case escalated and was assigned to the Delaware U.S. Attorney’s office, where Ziegler became the primary case agent.

Political Roadblocks and Interference

• Barriers to a Full Investigation ([04:58]–[06:58])

  • Evidence surfaced that could have implicated Joe Biden, but investigators were explicitly barred from pursuing leads toward the then-former Vice President.
  • Ziegler describes (with specific examples) how they were prohibited from naming or questioning “political figure one” (Joe Biden) in legal documents or interviews.
  • “It was very apparent from the beginning that they just didn’t want to touch anything related to the former vice president at the time… DOJ had this much control over essentially holding us down from doing a proper investigation related to the Biden family.” — Joseph Ziegler [06:17]

• Turning Whistleblower

  • After being stonewalled and ultimately removed from the investigation (which Ziegler later learned was retaliation), both he and supervisor Gary Shapley opted to blow the whistle.
  • Both testified before Congress; as the investigation unfolded publicly, the original “sweetheart” plea deal for Hunter Biden fell through, leading to charges and a conviction.

Breakthroughs and Uncommon Victories

• Vindication and Settlements ([06:58]–[09:36])
  • Contrary to almost all whistleblower cases, Ziegler and Shapley achieved significant victories:
    • Legal settlements with the Department of Justice and IRS, including mandated future training to protect whistleblowers.
    • Promotions within the IRS, now serving as senior advisors to the Secretary of Treasury.
    • Lawsuit against Hunter Biden’s attorney Abby Lowell, resolved with written acknowledgment that Ziegler and Shapley acted in good faith.
    • Ziegler emphasizes that whistleblowers “almost always get the short end of the stick,” making their positive outcome “groundbreaking.” ([06:58])

Personal Reflections and Government Reform

• A Chance Meeting and Its Impact ([09:36]–[11:21])

  • Ziegler recounts the pivotal moment: at a joint session of Congress after Trump’s election, a brief conversation with the Secretary of the Treasury in Speaker Mike Johnson’s office led directly to their promotions.
  • “It was kind of a sigh of relief. I felt like I’m out from underneath this cloud that’s been over me of being a whistleblower and someone finally recognizes that the sacrifices we put forward in coming forward…” — Joseph Ziegler [10:47]

• The Political Shift and Personal Growth ([11:21]–[13:59])

  • Ziegler credits Donald Trump’s administration with ushering in meaningful government accountability and reforms for whistleblowers.
  • “If Kamala Harris would have won the election, I probably wouldn’t have a job right now. And that’s terrifying to think about… For the first time, I feel like there’s government accountability and that we’re making the government make the government great again.” — Joseph Ziegler [12:29]
  • Ziegler, a former Democrat, discusses his support for the current administration, emphasizing a shift driven by principle, not partisanship.

The New Book and Supporting Future Whistleblowers

• Purpose and Proceeds ([13:00]–[14:51])
  • “The Whistleblowers vs. The Big Guy” is intended both as a historical record and a guidebook for future whistleblowers.
  • Proceeds from sales will support a nonprofit aiding other whistleblowers; neither Ziegler nor Shapley will profit personally.
  • The book includes deeply personal stories, struggles with identity (including Ziegler’s experience coming out as gay), and the emotional toll of whistleblowing.
  • “This book truly is a David and Goliath story. If you’re wanting to read about the triumph over evil in good, this is the story for you.” — Joseph Ziegler [14:41]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Investigative Roadblocks:
  “There was talking to the former Joe Biden’s kids, adult children. We were not allowed to do that… There was asking Rob Walker About 10% held by H for the big guy, which is a reasonable question to ask someone. It was cagey on whether we were allowed to ask something like that. So it was very apparent from the beginning that they just didn’t want to touch anything related to the former vice president at the time.” — Joseph Ziegler [05:35]

• On Positive Outcomes:
  “They had to provide training for people in the future so that what happened to us doesn’t happen against someone else…that’s groundbreaking.” — Joseph Ziegler [07:31]

• On Motivation for Writing the Book:
  “We’re putting our name and whatever you want to call it right out there in front and saying, hey, what we care more is about the story. What we care more is about supporting whistleblowers, this book being a guidebook for them and coming forward.” — Joseph Ziegler [13:18]

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Key Timestamps

• [01:21] – Ziegler recalls launching Hunter Biden investigation.
• [04:58] – Attkisson asks about evidence potentially implicating Joe Biden.
• [05:13] – Ziegler provides details on institutional roadblocks.
• [06:58] – Update on whistleblower aftermath, legal settlements, and promotions.
• [09:36] – The chance meeting leading to their career revival.
• [11:33] – Ziegler reflects on honesty, political shifts, and new perspectives.
• [13:00] – Motivations for the new book and giving back to whistleblowers.
• [14:41] – Ziegler frames the whistleblower saga as a “David and Goliath story.”

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a rare glimpse into the personal and professional complexities facing whistleblowers in politically charged cases. It’s an exemplar of both government challenges and unexpected redemption, highlighting how integrity, persistence, and “doing it the right way” can—on rare occasions—overcome institutional inertia.

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For more, look out for Sharyl Attkisson’s companion TV special and check out “The Whistleblowers vs. The Big Guy,” with all proceeds aiding future whistleblowers.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Hi, everybody, it's Cheryl Akison. Welcome to another edition of Full Measure. After Hours today, the whistleblowers versus the Big Guy. There's an important follow up to the IRS whistleblowers who exposed political interference in the Hunter Biden tax probe. Sunday, March 22, on full measure. I'll be speaking with one of the key figures, Joseph Ziegler, the IRS criminal investigator, who, believe me, had no idea what he was getting into in 2018 when he first uncovered potential tax fraud tied to the Bidens. The saga that followed involves allegations of serious coverups. And once facing retaliation for his disclosure, along with his supervisor, Gary Shapley. Well, the update has to do with some good news. They've managed to turn the tables in a big way. Vindicated now with legal settlements and even promotions. As you'll hear, this is extremely rare for whistleblowers. They almost always get the short end of the stick. Here's my interview and an update with Joseph Ziegler.

[B]

So I was the primary case agent who initiated the case against Hunter Biden. Just normal. Part of doing my job was reviewing bank reports relating to a foreign social media company. And in those bank reports, it mentioned some Russian prostitutes who were involved with Hunter Biden, and they related to the social media company. So started looking into it. There was some prior filings from Hunter's divorce with his ex wife to where she mentioned that Hunter had tax issues. She mentioned a diamond. So there were a lot of things that were in there that in the public record that said, okay, there's, there may be something here. So had no idea who Hunter was at the time, just knew the Biden name. That was it. Started digging into it. He had some unfiled tax returns, was making a significant amount of money. I'm like, there's potentially a case here. So elevated it up, took some time, and ultimately the case was assigned to the Delaware U.S. attorney's office. Started working the case there, primary case agent, tax case, did a bunch of electronic search warrants. But what I had seen that we were running up against issues, they were all always slowing us down. Didn't want us to follow the normal investigative procedures. But this was in the kind of the, the COVID setting. So fast forward a little bit more. We go overt, we actually come up, or we don't come up, but we find evidence that is indicative of some tax crimes. So I write a prosecution report related to Hunter Biden. We bring that forward through the process. So the U.S. attorney in Delaware was David Weiss at the time. And because Venue for the tax charges wasn't in Delaware. It was actually in D.C. and California. We actually had to go to two Biden appointed US attorneys to bring those charges. So when the case started coming to ultimately charging the case, we were seeing a lot of improper conduct on the behalf of Department of Justice irs. We were. We were just had our. Like, we didn't know what to do. So my boss, Gary Shapley, who is also another whistleblower with me, had a meeting with David Weiss to basically where David Weiss said he was not the deciding official in charge in the case. That was Gary's red line meeting. He said that he can't do this anymore, so he decided to become a whistleblower. I stayed as the case agent, and I didn't ultimately make the decision to become a whistleblower until they removed me from the investigation, which we have later found out was specifically retaliation against us for making protected disclosures about their misconduct. And so they removed us. I became a whistleblower, testified in front of Congress, Department of Justice, decided to do a sweetheart plea deal related to Hunter Biden. That plea deal fell through. David Weiss becomes special counsel. David Weiss charges him in Delaware with the gun charge, charges him in California with the tax crimes. Everything that I had put forward that he should have been charged with. And ultimately he was convicted on the gun charge in Delaware, and he pled guilty to the tax crimes in. In California. And then ultimately his father pardoned him. And it's kind of where we're at today. It's kind of that. I can't believe I just did that in two minutes, but that was. Yeah,

[A]

you did a good job. In summary, one little piece of the puzzle that I think is very important, though, is that you are seeing evidence that could potentially have implicated Joe Biden, Hunter's father. And we're not allowed to follow that trail. Is that accurate?

[B]

Yeah. So there were multiple points. I mean, we brought a lot of this forward to the. To the. To the various committees in Congress, but there was the prosecutor on the case. We were drafting a search warrant related to Farah charges against Hunter Biden in Ukraine. And one of the people mentioned in there was political figure one, Joe Biden. And the prosecutor at the time said there can't be any mention to political figure number one in this search warrant. And we're like, that makes. It relates to Ukraine. He's vice president at the time. That's just one example. There was talking to the former Joe Biden's kids, adult children. We were not allowed to do that if there were any questions when we were doing interviews of certain people that led to Joe Biden, we weren't allowed to go and ask those questions. There was asking Rob Walker About 10% held by H for the big guy, which is a reasonable question to ask someone. It was cagey on whether we were allowed to ask something like that. So it was very apparent from the beginning that they just didn't want to touch anything related to the former vice president at the time. Wasn't even the president, Joe Biden. So it was kind of like all hands off and it just didn't seem appropriate. And looking back on everything, when you add it all in totality, it's a lot bigger of a deal than you might think. DOJ had this much control over essentially holding us down from doing a proper investigation related to the Biden family.

[A]

Things rarely turn out well for whistleblowers, as I've learned. But things for you, since we did our last interview for you and Gary have taken a better turn. Can you bring us up to date on what happened since?

[B]

Yeah, so it's actually been so right after we came out as whistleblowers, I mean, we were being retaliated against. We were being woodsheded. We were. A lot of my work wasn't getting approved. I mean, there were multiple, multiple things that we pointed to in our complaint against the IRS that was going on related to us. So we've actually settled our. What would be our lawsuits against Department of Justice and irs? The one against Department of Justice, they had to pay a significant amount of money. The one against Department of Justice, they actually had to provide training for people in the future so that what happened to us doesn't happen against someone else in the future. I mean, that's groundbreaking. So we've written a book, the Whistleblowers versus the Big Guy, that I think is so very important to bring up because it kind of solidifies Gary and my place in history as what we went through, what we went through as whistleblowers, what we went through in our personal lives and the toll that it took on us in conducting the investigation related to Hunter Biden and coming forward and going through the process of becoming whistleblowers. So we have also received promotions at the irs. We've through. Thank God for the Secretary of Treasury. He made us senior advisors to him. I'm trying to think of. There's been. We've settled our lawsuit. So if you remember back, Hunter had sued. He didn't sue us directly, but he had sued our Employer, the irs, for making improper disclosures of his return information. He since dropped that. And then we have, we ended up suing his, his attorney, Abby Lowell, and we have ended up settling that. And he in the settlement said that, that basically we were acting in good faith and basically supporting whistleblowers, which is ultimately, we didn't want a financial gain from that. We just wanted to recognize that what we did was right.

[A]

Can you take me to the moment when you found out you were going to be offered a promotion? Did the, did it come as a cold call or did someone call you before you got a call? Kind of. Tell me about that and how you felt.

[B]

So it finally, it felt it. So the story behind it is Gary and I were going to, we got invited to the joint session of Congress to watch President Trump speak. And we're in the speaker of the House, we're in Mike Johnson's office, and the Secretary of Treasury is there and it's Secretary Bessant. And I go to Gary, I'm like, that's the secretary. Gary gets this look in his face and literally goes up to the secretary and has this two minute elevator speech. And I guess the secretary at the time was so taken aback by kind of what we've been through and hearing our story that he made the decision to put us into the positions that we're at right now. And when I heard that, it was kind of was a sigh of relief. I felt like I'm out from underneath this cloud that's been over me of being a whistleblower and someone finally recognizes that the sacrifices we put forward in

[A]

coming forward, I mean, little detail, but you're talking about the joint session to Congress after Trump was elected.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And who invited you to the

[B]

Congressman? Jim Jordan and Jamie Comer.

[A]

And was Besant, Secretary Besant, already familiar with the story, with your story to some degree?

[B]

I believe so. Yeah, I believe so.

[A]

And then how long after that before you got word and how did you exactly get word that you were getting a promotion?

[B]

I don't remember the exact details, but it was like a couple weeks after and it was through our attorneys that we had found out.

[A]

So life is looking up. I'm only emphasizing that because I can't tell you how many whistleblower stories I've done and how many people I've interviewed. And I don't think anything has ever turned out. So far, so good.

[B]

What I think changed for Gary and I is that we were so honest and so truthful. Like we had stellar records coming forward. And Everything that we had brought forward they tried to test, and everything was truthful and honest. They really couldn't attack us at all. And I think us coming forward in that process with legal representation and doing it the right way really made an impact down the road. Now, if Kamala Harris would have won the election, I probably wouldn't have a job right now. And that's terrifying to think about. But when I saw that Donald Trump was elected as president, I was like, wow, this is okay. Maybe we're actually going to see the change. And what I can tell you, you probably know my history, but I was a Democrat. I don't identify really as a Democrat anymore. And I really support Donald Trump and I support this administration and what they're doing with government reform. For the first time, I feel like there's government accountability and that were making the government make the government great again. So what I think is so important about it is what's so shocking to me is this is such a big story. You think that something like this would be huge. And I don't know why, but it doesn't seem like people want to hear some of this story. So, I mean, what's. So if people, like, understand that any of the profits from this book are going to the nonprofit that is supporting current and future whistleblowers, Gary and I are not going to make a cent off this book. And that, I think, is so very important because we're putting our name and whatever you want to call it right out there in front and saying, hey, what we care more is about the story. What we care more is about supporting whistleblowers, this book being a guidebook for them and coming forward. And the book really goes through our life story. It talks a lot about me and my. Some of the struggles with me being gay and coming out with my dad. It goes through a lot of the things, personal things in our lives that we were going through. It details a lot of the inner workings of what we were dealing with on a daily basis in this investigation. So it really ties a very complex puzzle together from how this family operated, how they operated, and how two measly agents were able to essentially go against the White House and the presidency of the United States. I don't know if that's ever been done before, but Gary and I were successful in doing that, and we won. It truly is. This book truly is a David and Goliath story. If you're wanting to read about the triumph over evil in good, this is the story for you.

[A]

I hope you enjoyed today's podcast and that you will leave us a great review. Subscribe to this podcast and share it with your friends. And check out my other podcast, the Cheryl Akison Podcast. If you'd like to support independent journalism, then pick up a copy of my latest national bestseller, Follow the Science How Big Pharma Misleads, Obscures, and Prevails. Proceed. Support independent reporting causes. Those causes also benefit from sales at the Cheryl Akison Store, so go to cherylakisson.com and click the Store tab. I've designed some really interesting and fun products exclusively for independent thinkers like you, with sayings on them such as I need to find some new conspiracy theories. All my old ones came true. And do your own research, make up your own mind, Think for yourself.