Full Measure After Hours – Episode Summary

Podcast: Full Measure After Hours
Episode: The Whistleblowers v. The Big Guy
Date: March 19, 2026
Host: Sharyl Attkisson
Guest: Joseph Ziegler (IRS Criminal Investigator, Whistleblower)

Episode Overview

This episode features a deep-dive update with Joseph Ziegler, one of the IRS whistleblowers who exposed political interference in the Hunter Biden tax investigation. Host Sharyl Attkisson and Ziegler discuss the rarely positive outcomes for whistleblowers, changes in their professional circumstances, and their new book "The Whistleblowers vs. The Big Guy." The conversation details institutional barriers in investigating politically sensitive cases, personal and professional repercussions, and the broader implications for government accountability.

Key Discussion Points

The Genesis of the Hunter Biden Investigation

• Initiation and Discovery ([01:21]–[04:58])
  • Ziegler recounts how, in 2018, as a regular part of his job, he came across suspicious bank reports mentioning Hunter Biden and potential tax fraud.
  • Initial clues included public records from Hunter’s divorce, unfiled tax returns, questionable earnings, and red flags involving foreign transactions and Russian prostitutes.
  • The case escalated and was assigned to the Delaware U.S. Attorney’s office, where Ziegler became the primary case agent.

Political Roadblocks and Interference

• Barriers to a Full Investigation ([04:58]–[06:58])

  • Evidence surfaced that could have implicated Joe Biden, but investigators were explicitly barred from pursuing leads toward the then-former Vice President.
  • Ziegler describes (with specific examples) how they were prohibited from naming or questioning “political figure one” (Joe Biden) in legal documents or interviews.
  • “It was very apparent from the beginning that they just didn’t want to touch anything related to the former vice president at the time… DOJ had this much control over essentially holding us down from doing a proper investigation related to the Biden family.” — Joseph Ziegler [06:17]

• Turning Whistleblower

  • After being stonewalled and ultimately removed from the investigation (which Ziegler later learned was retaliation), both he and supervisor Gary Shapley opted to blow the whistle.
  • Both testified before Congress; as the investigation unfolded publicly, the original “sweetheart” plea deal for Hunter Biden fell through, leading to charges and a conviction.

Breakthroughs and Uncommon Victories

• Vindication and Settlements ([06:58]–[09:36])
  • Contrary to almost all whistleblower cases, Ziegler and Shapley achieved significant victories:
    • Legal settlements with the Department of Justice and IRS, including mandated future training to protect whistleblowers.
    • Promotions within the IRS, now serving as senior advisors to the Secretary of Treasury.
    • Lawsuit against Hunter Biden’s attorney Abby Lowell, resolved with written acknowledgment that Ziegler and Shapley acted in good faith.
    • Ziegler emphasizes that whistleblowers “almost always get the short end of the stick,” making their positive outcome “groundbreaking.” ([06:58])

Personal Reflections and Government Reform

• A Chance Meeting and Its Impact ([09:36]–[11:21])

  • Ziegler recounts the pivotal moment: at a joint session of Congress after Trump’s election, a brief conversation with the Secretary of the Treasury in Speaker Mike Johnson’s office led directly to their promotions.
  • “It was kind of a sigh of relief. I felt like I’m out from underneath this cloud that’s been over me of being a whistleblower and someone finally recognizes that the sacrifices we put forward in coming forward…” — Joseph Ziegler [10:47]

• The Political Shift and Personal Growth ([11:21]–[13:59])

  • Ziegler credits Donald Trump’s administration with ushering in meaningful government accountability and reforms for whistleblowers.
  • “If Kamala Harris would have won the election, I probably wouldn’t have a job right now. And that’s terrifying to think about… For the first time, I feel like there’s government accountability and that we’re making the government make the government great again.” — Joseph Ziegler [12:29]
  • Ziegler, a former Democrat, discusses his support for the current administration, emphasizing a shift driven by principle, not partisanship.

The New Book and Supporting Future Whistleblowers

• Purpose and Proceeds ([13:00]–[14:51])
  • “The Whistleblowers vs. The Big Guy” is intended both as a historical record and a guidebook for future whistleblowers.
  • Proceeds from sales will support a nonprofit aiding other whistleblowers; neither Ziegler nor Shapley will profit personally.
  • The book includes deeply personal stories, struggles with identity (including Ziegler’s experience coming out as gay), and the emotional toll of whistleblowing.
  • “This book truly is a David and Goliath story. If you’re wanting to read about the triumph over evil in good, this is the story for you.” — Joseph Ziegler [14:41]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Investigative Roadblocks:
  “There was talking to the former Joe Biden’s kids, adult children. We were not allowed to do that… There was asking Rob Walker About 10% held by H for the big guy, which is a reasonable question to ask someone. It was cagey on whether we were allowed to ask something like that. So it was very apparent from the beginning that they just didn’t want to touch anything related to the former vice president at the time.” — Joseph Ziegler [05:35]

• On Positive Outcomes:
  “They had to provide training for people in the future so that what happened to us doesn’t happen against someone else…that’s groundbreaking.” — Joseph Ziegler [07:31]

• On Motivation for Writing the Book:
  “We’re putting our name and whatever you want to call it right out there in front and saying, hey, what we care more is about the story. What we care more is about supporting whistleblowers, this book being a guidebook for them and coming forward.” — Joseph Ziegler [13:18]

Key Timestamps

• [01:21] – Ziegler recalls launching Hunter Biden investigation.
• [04:58] – Attkisson asks about evidence potentially implicating Joe Biden.
• [05:13] – Ziegler provides details on institutional roadblocks.
• [06:58] – Update on whistleblower aftermath, legal settlements, and promotions.
• [09:36] – The chance meeting leading to their career revival.
• [11:33] – Ziegler reflects on honesty, political shifts, and new perspectives.
• [13:00] – Motivations for the new book and giving back to whistleblowers.
• [14:41] – Ziegler frames the whistleblower saga as a “David and Goliath story.”

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a rare glimpse into the personal and professional complexities facing whistleblowers in politically charged cases. It’s an exemplar of both government challenges and unexpected redemption, highlighting how integrity, persistence, and “doing it the right way” can—on rare occasions—overcome institutional inertia.

For more, look out for Sharyl Attkisson’s companion TV special and check out “The Whistleblowers vs. The Big Guy,” with all proceeds aiding future whistleblowers.