Andy Puzder & Allison Schrager: Should Tips Be Taxed?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Future of Freedom - "Andy Puzder & Allison Schrager: Should Tips Be Taxed?"

Episode Information:

• Title: Future of Freedom
• Host: Scott Bertram
• Guests: Andy Puzder & Allison Schrager
• Release Date: September 16, 2024
• Description: This episode delves into the contentious debate over whether tips should be exempt from federal income tax. Representing opposing viewpoints, Andy Puzder, former CEO of CKE Restaurants, advocates for the policy, while Allison Schrager, Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute, critiques it.

---

Introduction to the Debate

Scott Bertram opens the episode by introducing the central topic: former President Donald Trump's proposal to eliminate federal income tax on tips, a policy later echoed by Vice President Kamala Harris in Nevada. The discussion aims to dissect the proposal's implications from both conservative and libertarian perspectives.

Andy Puzder's Advocacy for Tax-Free Tips

1. Seriousness of the Proposal

Andy Puzder asserts that Trump's proposal is a serious and comprehensive plan aimed at providing tax relief to working-class Americans. He emphasizes that the initiative extends beyond tips, including tax eliminations on overtime pay and Social Security retirement benefits.

Andy Puzder [01:22]: "This is really an attempt by the president to give tax breaks to working class Americans. And it's comprehensive. [...] Harris is just copying President Trump."

2. Economic Incentives and Business Benefits

Puzder argues that removing taxes on tips incentivizes better service, as tips directly reward employees for their performance. He highlights that this approach allows workers to increase their take-home pay without imposing additional costs on business owners.

Andy Puzder [02:24]: "It gives people an incentive to provide better service. [...] it's a way to increase workers take home pay without increasing the cost for the business owners."

He further contends that maintaining lower labor costs helps prevent restaurant closures, especially in states with high minimum wages like California.

3. Potential Economic Growth

Addressing concerns about reduced federal revenue, Puzder challenges the Congressional Budget Office’s (CBO) projections, suggesting that lower taxes can spur economic growth by enabling businesses to expand and create jobs. He references President Kennedy’s advocacy for tax cuts to illustrate the potential for increased prosperity and tax revenue through economic expansion.

Andy Puzder [06:38]: "The CBO has been a disaster when it comes to analyzing the impact on economic growth... President Kennedy was a big advocate of these kinds of tax cuts because they did generate economic growth."

4. Impact on Employment and Business Operations

Puzder envisions the policy making server roles more attractive, addressing staffing shortages in the restaurant industry. He believes that tax-free tips can lead to higher income for servers, making the profession more desirable without burdening businesses financially.

Andy Puzder [09:17]: "Working in a restaurant generally, if the tips are shared, are going to make those restaurant jobs more desirable, more attractive, higher income."

Allison Schrager's Critique of Tax-Free Tips

1. Distortions in the Tipping System

Allison Schrager critiques the existing tipping system, labeling it as a "pretty standard obligation" rather than a true market-driven incentive. She points out that tips create artificial constraints, requiring a significant portion of a restaurant’s revenue to be allocated to servers, which can distort business operations and wage structures.

Allison Schrager [13:21]: "Tipping is actually just a pretty standard obligation. [...] there's this weird constraint in the, in tipped industries where 20% of revenues have to go to servers."

2. Inequitable Compensation Structures

Schrager highlights the imbalance in compensation between servers and other restaurant staff, such as chefs, who often receive less despite the high skill and training required. She argues that making tips tax-free further entrenches these inequities.

Allison Schrager [13:21]: "Chefs end up getting a fraction of what the servers do anyway. [...] it's just a bad way to pay people."

3. Inefficiency and Lack of Business Control

She contends that allowing tips to flow freely creates inefficiencies, as business owners cannot effectively control compensation or allocate resources based on talent and performance. Schrager warns that tax-free tips amplify these issues, leading to greater distortions in the industry.

Allison Schrager [16:37]: "Just as soon as you move to a world where everyone's tipped [...] it's so distortionary."

4. Limited Impact on Tax Revenue and Social Programs

Addressing the potential for increased tip reporting, Schrager remains skeptical. She notes that most servers earning lower incomes may not be significantly impacted by federal income tax changes, and the overall increase in reported tips may not substantially benefit Social Security or Medicare funding.

Allison Schrager [19:35]: "If you're at the low end of the income spectrum, you're probably not paying federal income tax anyway."

5. Alternative Solutions for Supporting Low-Income Workers

Instead of tax exemptions, Schrager advocates for more progressive tax policies or tax credits that do not single out specific income types. She believes these alternatives can better address income inequalities without introducing further distortions into the compensation structures.

Allison Schrager [20:37]: "We could have a tax credit or something like that. [...] that's a better alternative than just all of a sudden declaring a type of income tax free."

6. Challenges in Eliminating Tipping Culture

Schrager acknowledges attempts to move away from tipping, such as those by restaurateur Danny Meyer, but notes the challenges faced when eliminating tips, including decreased server income and operational difficulties.

Allison Schrager [21:28]: "Servers end up getting a lot less money than servers at other high end restaurants. [...] it seems like you're asked for tips constantly for everything though."

Rebuttals and Counterarguments

Impact on Reporting and Tax Compliance

When discussing whether tax-free tips would lead to better reporting of tip income, Schrager remains unconvinced, especially for lower-income servers who may not benefit significantly from increased tax compliance.

Allison Schrager [19:48]: "If you're at the low end of the income spectrum, you're probably not paying federal income tax anyway and you're just paying Social Security tax."

Puzder counters the effectiveness of CBO projections by emphasizing the missed potential for economic growth and increased business incentives.

Andy Puzder [06:38]: "When a business's costs go down, what you want to do is you want to expand your business... create prosperity and abundance."

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The episode presents a clear dichotomy in perspectives on the taxation of tips. Andy Puzder champions the policy as a means to enhance worker income, incentivize better service, and foster economic growth without imposing additional financial burdens on businesses. In contrast, Allison Schrager criticizes the existing tipping system for its inherent distortions and argues that making tips tax-free would exacerbate these issues without delivering meaningful benefits to low-income workers or significantly improving tax revenues.

The dialogue underscores the complexity of balancing economic incentives, business sustainability, and fair compensation within the service industry. While Puzder sees tax-free tips as a pathway to economic vitality and improved worker satisfaction, Schrager warns of deepening inequities and systemic inefficiencies that could arise from such a policy shift.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Andy Puzder [01:22]: "This is really an attempt by the president to give tax breaks to working class Americans. And it's comprehensive."

• Andy Puzder [02:24]: "It gives people an incentive to provide better service. [...] it's a way to increase workers take home pay without increasing the cost for the business owners."

• Andy Puzder [06:38]: "The CBO has been a disaster when it comes to analyzing the impact on economic growth... President Kennedy was a big advocate of these kinds of tax cuts because they did generate economic growth."

• Allison Schrager [13:21]: "Tipping is actually just a pretty standard obligation. [...] there's this weird constraint in the, in tipped industries where 20% of revenues have to go to servers."

• Allison Schrager [16:37]: "Just as soon as you move to a world where everyone's tipped [...] it's so distortionary."

• Allison Schrager [20:37]: "We could have a tax credit or something like that. [...] that's a better alternative than just all of a sudden declaring a type of income tax free."

---

About the Guests:

• Andy Puzder: Former CEO of CKE Restaurants (16 years), Distinguished Visiting Fellow at the Heritage Foundation, Senior Fellow at the America First Policy Institute. Twitter: @AndyPuzder

• Allison Schrager: Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute, Bloomberg columnist. Twitter: @AlisonSchrager

For more insights and discussions, visit americastalking.com to explore additional episodes of the Future of Freedom podcast and other offerings from America's Talking Network.

Transcript

[Allison Schrager]

Foreign.

[Scott Bertram]

Welcome to Future of Freedom. I'm your host, Scott Bertram. Future of Freedom is a production of America's Talking Network. You can check out all of our great [e-mail] to support great podcasts like this one, please donate by clicking the link in the show description. We bring you interviews today from different sides of the debate over a no tax on tips policy. In a little bit we'll be joined by Allison Schrager. She's a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute and a Bloomberg columnist. First we talked to Andy Puzder. He was CEO of CKE Restaurants for more than 16 years, a distinguished visiting fellow at the Heritage foundation and a senior fellow at, at the America First Policy Institute. You can also find him on X Dypuzder. Andy, thanks so much for joining us.

[Andy Puzder]

Great to be here, Scott. My pleasure.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking today about Donald Trump's idea policy plan for no tax on tips, one that now also has been acknowledged and accepted by Kamala Harris as well. I wanna begin by asking, do you feel after examining the proposal, it's a serious plan or is it merely campaign rhetoric?

[Andy Puzder]

Well, from the Trump, from Trump's position, I think it's definitely a serious plan. If you look, he's also proposed to eliminate the tax on overtime pay and the tax on Social Security retirement benefits. This is really an attempt by the president to give tax breaks to working class Americans. And it's comprehensive. I mean he's doing, he's doing it at every, every level he can think of. Harris is just copying President Trump. She didn't want to lose Nevada in the, in the election and so she made the same commitment in Nevada. But for President Trump, this is, this is a serious proposal and something I think is important to him personally.

[Scott Bertram]

So the proposal itself, no federal income tax on tips. Why is this angle more effective, more efficient than a simple minimum wage increase or an increase to the, to the sub minimum wage that covers servers? Why a no tax on tip perspective?

[Andy Puzder]

Well, I think number one, it gives people an incentive to provide better service. So that's the way they can increase their take home pay and tips. You know, there really is no better measure of merit, no better measure of good performance than tips. I mean it's real time. Going home at the end of a shift with a bunch of tips in your pocket is certainly something that's very encouraging, elevating for people who work those jobs. Secondly, it's a way to increase workers take home pay without increasing the cost for the business owners. Let's say a restaurant owner all of a sudden your employees have increased their wages, but your labor costs as a percentage of your overall business expenses hasn't increased at all. And we certainly know that right now, particularly in states like California, where they boosted the minimum wage to $20 an hour, that businesses are being destroyed. We're having restaurants close in numbers we've never seen before. And this would be a way, I think, to help those restaurants make ends meet, stay open and continue to provide jobs. The left always complains that restaurant workers rely on federal benefits to enhance their income. So here's an increase that doesn't have anything. It's not a federal benefit that it's not a cost to the business. It's a way to let people keep more of what they earn. And I think it's a good plan.

[Scott Bertram]

You mentioned employers and certainly your background with CKE restaurants gives you a unique perspective. How do you think employers would view a change like this? Would there be pressure to change the categorization of pay so there are more tipped jobs out there? Would we need a way to prevent a, a quote unquote gaming of the system if the no tax on tip policy went into effect?

[Andy Puzder]

I think there would be a move among employers to increase the number of tipped employees. But I think the pressure to do that's going to come from the employees. They're still going to have to pay taxes on their regular wages. They're not. That's not going to change. But not having to pay tax on tips is going to encourage not only better service, but it's a way for employees to make more money. So I think it will be a benefit for businesses. And of course we want to structure any law that deals with this in a way that they can't kind of game the system, whether it's employees or employers trying to game the system. But I think the pressure to do that's going to come from the employees more than it's going to come from the employers because they're the ones who are going to be getting the benefits of this.

[Scott Bertram]

Why this sector of employees? Why not extend it or do something different for I would say construction workers, other working class professions? Why on surfers? Why on tipped employees?

[Andy Puzder]

As I said, this is the most purely merit based pay you can find. I mean, you get real time input as to how good of a job you've done. And in the past we've managed to keep the hourly wage lower for, for tipped employees and that's nationally and federally. So this is a way that we can benefit this particular segment But I think the president's looking, look, he's cut wages for everybody. I mean, he's got taxes for everybody. He's increased wages when he was president, but he cut taxes for everybody, including construction workers and people who work in manufacturing. He's lowered the tax rates across the board. Now he's looking for targeted tax cuts that can benefit the people that really need it the most. As I said, it's not only taxes on tips, but it's also taxes on overtime pay, which rewards people that work hard. So you've got, you're rewarding people that do a good job, you know, and you're, now you're rewarding people who work hard and for Social Security benefits by not taxing them. You're, you're wording people who work their whole lives. So I think, I think he's looking for ways to award particular segments in addition to the overall tax cuts that affected everybody.

[Scott Bertram]

The initial analysis tends to focus on the direct effect of this, which is no tax on tips, so perhaps less revenue to the federal government. What about the indirect effects and how that might affect the economy, Andy?

[Andy Puzder]

Well, I'd say, number one, yeah, we have to kind of talk about the two together because what we're talking about here in reducing tips, it's the CBO projections that Congressional Budget Office projections that say this will reduce the amount of revenue. But the CBO has been a disaster when it comes to analyzing the impact on economic growth that comes from tax policies that reduce rates or that reduce the facially what you see on the face of these tax cut proposals. In fact, they said that the Trump tax cuts were going to cost the American taxpayers about $1.7 trillion. In fact, they haven't caught the taxpayers anything. The most current projections from the CBO showed that for the 10 year period over which they said these tax cuts would cost 1.7 trillion, they didn't cost anything. They actually may have brought in additional tax revenue. So they're very bad at doing this. What they, what they can't, what they fail to contemplate is the incentive businesses get when their costs go down. When a business's costs go down, what you want to do is you want to expand your business, you want to open more businesses, you want to do the kinds of things that create prosperity and abundance rather than trying to cut back on jobs and cut back on building, which, which end up reducing economic growth. And the projections that say, oh, this is going to cost money, this is going to reduce revenue, don't factor in the benefits of economic growth. This is John Kennedy. President Kennedy was, was a big advocate of these kinds of tax cuts because they did generate economic growth which results in prosperity and increases tax revenue even though you reduce tax rates. So I think the people that are making those projections are ignoring the potential economic impacts on businesses that could come from these reductions in taxes as a way to increase employees income without increasing the business's cost.

[Scott Bertram]

Andy Puzder with us here on Future of Freedom. As we talk about President Trump's tax plans, including this no tax on tips proposal. I do go to restaurants and I see help wanted signs in virtually all of them everywhere. And sometimes there are still restaurants I've visited where certain areas are shut down because they can't handle that amount of business with the amount of staff they have on hand. Would this proposal, could this proposal make the server role a more desired profession, a more desired job and help fill those openings?

[Andy Puzder]

Yeah, absolutely. And you should keep in mind in a lot of businesses, a lot of restaurants for example, or hotels, the, the staff share the tips. So, you know, so working in a restaurant generally, if the tips are shared, are going to make those restaurant jobs more desirable, more attractive, higher income, all of the things that we like to see. So I think that it would definitely have a positive impact.

[Scott Bertram]

What does it mean for a business when revenue goes directly to the server instead of being taken through the business? If it's no tax on tip, perhaps tips increase, that money goes directly to the server. It doesn't go through the business. What does that mean, I guess financially or for the books when that sort of thing occurs with a business?

[Andy Puzder]

Well, it really shouldn't impact the business at all. I mean it actually is a positive for the business because it really eliminates sort of the middleman between the customers, customer and the employee. You want your employees to give really good service so you as a business trying to reward them for good service? Well, in this circumstance as the business, you don't have to reward them for good service. The, the customers reward them directly for their good service. So it, it's a, it's a way that businesses can make sure their best employees are rewarded the most generously because they don't, they're not the ones determining the, the rewards that comes from the consumer, from the customer. So it really doesn't have much of an impact on the business. Now businesses, we'd have to see how this other proposal ends up being implemented. I mean, there wouldn't be payroll taxes withheld on this amount of money. So that would be a benefit to the business and an economic benefit to the business and something that they wouldn't have to spend time calculating and dealing with. But there could be benefits to the business as well. I don't think there's any potential negative consequences from this.

[Scott Bertram]

The IRS estimates somewhere around 45% of tip income is unreported. If a no tax on tip policy is enacted and you'd have to report the revenue, the income to get the benefit, would that improve, do you think, the amount of income that's reported and how might that affect, say, Social Security funding, Medicare funding, things like that?

[Andy Puzder]

Well, certainly could help depending upon how the, upon how this, this exemption for tipped wages is drafted. If you, if, if you still, if there were still contributions to, for example, Social Security, I think it would increase the benefits. I think, by the way, I think you're going to see increased reporting of tipped income in whether you do this or not. Because tips normally now you, you don't give cash tips, right? You put it on. When you sign, you sign and you put on the credit, on the credit card receipt. So I think increasingly people are their tips because there's now documented evidence that they got tips. But I think this would immediately increase, eliminate the problem with cash tips because it would definitely incentivize people to report those tips and get the benefits.

[Scott Bertram]

Andy Puzder was CEO of CKE Restaurants for more than 16 years. He's now Distinguished Visiting Fellow at the Heritage foundation and Senior Fellow at America First Policy Initiative. You can also find him on X@anyypuzder. Andy, thank you so much for joining us today on Future of Freedom.

[Andy Puzder]

My pleasure, Scott, thank you.

[Scott Bertram]

Now, to hear another side of the argument about a no tax on tips policy, we talk with Allison Schrager, senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute. You can find her on X. Alison Schrager, Allison, thanks so much for joining us.

[Allison Schrager]

Thanks for having me.

[Scott Bertram]

Talking about the recent idea floated by former President Donald Trump to make tipped income federal tax free. Federal income tax free. Your piece over at Bloomberg begins by saying tipping is terrible and almost no one likes it. What's so bad about tipping?

[Allison Schrager]

Initially, I was sympathetic to tips because the free market economist in me is like, it's great that you have this economic relationship with your server and they're motivated, but it doesn't really work like that. I mean, as we know, tipping is actually just a pretty standard obligation. And what it actually means is it is the cost of dining, but it means for the restaurant owner that 20% of their revenue has to go to servers. Which, you know, in normal businesses, you know, just, you know, the owner of a business allocates money, you know, his revenues and salaries based on, you know, scarcity and level of talent like normal businesses. But there's this weird constraint in the, in tipped industries where 20% of revenues have to go to servers. And the result has been like these huge distortions in the industry. And it's one of the reasons owning a restaurant and running a restaurant is so hard to be profitable is ends up being chefs end up getting a fraction of what the servers do anyway. You know, arguably has more skill, it required training. So, you know, it's just a bad way to pay people. And that's on the higher end. You know, servers can actually get paid quite a bit while chefs very little. And on the lower end it actually then results in, you know, restaurants that aren't as regular can be sort of a more sort of uncertain pay structure and a more precarious existence. So like really like other than unless you're a high end server, it's not good for anyone else.

[Scott Bertram]

It may be very simple, but what is the definition or what counts as tipped income? Is it just that transfer from consumer directly to employee as opposed to going through the business?

[Allison Schrager]

Yeah, although I mean technically now with credit cards and in some states you can pull tips and then tips that are then allocated somewhat between different parts of the house of the business. But generally, yeah, that's, that's roughly it where it's a discretionary amount that the customer pays.

[Scott Bertram]

Going back to President Trump, before President Trump's idea about eliminating the federal tax on tipped income. We always talk about incentives in economics. What would a definitional change or would there be definitional changes to pay or how do you think businesses would adjust to something like former President Trump's idea?

[Allison Schrager]

Well, it all be paid in tips. I mean, wouldn't you want to be, wouldn't you want a large fraction of your income to be tax free? I mean, I'm not opposed to the idea that servers or service workers, you know, especially lower end service workers, you know, we need more tax relief. I mean, I think that's, that's, that's a viable argument but like as a public finance economist, you just don't want to prioritize certain types of income over the other unless you have like a good reason. Like I think everyone should be paid in tips or you know, or flat or, you know, arguably, you know, the, your employer's contributions to health care is untaxed now. I mean a lot of people would argue that has been the original sin and what's wrong with our entire health system. But let's just assume that for the sake of argument that is so because we think we want employers to provide health insurance. So that explains why there's that tax incentive there. So if you want to say, say something as tax free, you need to effectively having to argue there's something superior about the sort of compensation that we want to encourage. And it's the opposite with tips.

[Scott Bertram]

Right. Is there any particular reason you can think of why normal pay pay through the employer would be taxed differently? Why would it be taxed differently than tip pay? Does it make any sense to you at all?

[Allison Schrager]

No, I mean, as I said originally, I was like, oh, it's nice that, you know, we have this motivating thing and you know, service in Europe is terrible and we don't tip there. So like I used to have that idea, but when I spoke to people in the restauran and then you realize, and I said if we move to a world where everyone's tipped like your financial planner, then all of a sudden you just end up with business owners everywhere not having a lot of control over the compensation or sort of their revenues that they should be going to them and they should be able to allocate more efficiently.

[Scott Bertram]

Alison Traeger with us here on Future Freedom. As we talk about the idea from former President Trump to make tipped income federal income tax free, when I ask about some other potential changes or how incentives would change behavior perhaps if this move forward. I know what the current unemployment rate is, but I also know, at least anecdotally, virtually every restaurant that I go to has help wanted signs up. And I was recently at two restaurants, in fact, that still were sort of limiting rationing the availability of tables because they didn't have enough people to serve. Would a policy, could a policy change like this help drive more people to that industry to help fill vacancies in the restaurant industry?

[Allison Schrager]

Well, I mean, because take home pay would be higher. Yeah, I suppose. Of course, as I said, it is not going to help the restaurant industry for people who aren't servers. Like, they also face a big shortage of chefs. I mean, if we want. I said, I think there's a viable argument to be made that restaurant servers or a lot of low end service workers are not adequately paid or therefore worthy to some sort of tax relief. I mean, by adequately paid, I mean like, you know, they're paid what the market says they should be paid. But you know, as a society we have an expectation, a rich society, particularly what people should be paid to live a decent life. So, okay, let's say that's the argument in that case. I mean, we could do some sort of tax credit for servers or for everyone who works in a restaurant. But the idea of just saying this block of ink income is tax free creates so many distortions. And I said tipping is already a big distortion. So we're just like doubling down on kind of a bad distortion and making it even more distortionary.

[Scott Bertram]

The IRS says around 45% of tipped income ends up being unreported. Right now, again, if a change like this were to move forward, is there a possibility that more of that tipped income becomes reported because there is no federal income tax on it? That would perhaps lead to more Social Security tax revenue, Medicare tax revenue. Could it lead to more compliance and could that do more for those programs that are already looking to run out of funding in the next decade or so?

[Allison Schrager]

What would tipped income be still subject to Social Security taxes?

[Scott Bertram]

Depends on the proposal, of course.

[Allison Schrager]

Federal income taxes.

[Scott Bertram]

But I believe that's, I believe that's the initial proposal, at least without seeing details in legislation form from the former president.

[Allison Schrager]

Well, to be honest, if you're at the low end of the income spectrum, you're probably not paying federal income tax anyway and you're just paying Social Security tax. So I'm not quite sure why you would have an incentive to now report. I mean, I guess for high end servers maybe, but they're. But honestly, I can't even imagine with them because, you know, it's harder to obfuscate what you're being paid in trips if it goes through a credit card.

[Andy Puzder]

Right.

[Allison Schrager]

So I imagine that 45% would be people on the lower end who get cash tips and odds are they're probably not paying much in federal tax anyway.

[Scott Bertram]

You talked about a few of these things earlier. I just want to return if, if there is a desire to help out lower income people who are servers, are there other ideas out there that might get us to the same place without warping the structure for pay in this way?

[Allison Schrager]

Yeah, we could have to get tax credit or something like that. I personally am not a fan of singling out servers, but we could talk about doing things to make the tax code more progressive. So if that's the goal, arguably that should be the goal, but I'm saying that's a better alternative than just all of a sudden declaring a type of income tax free. I mean, I said it's so distortionary.

[Scott Bertram]

Going back to your initial idea or initial thought that tipping is terrible. We have seen some in the restaurant industry move away from tipping and just fold in those prices into the cost on the menu, the cost of the food cost, the beverages themselves, and eliminate tipping in certain restaurants. Is that, do you think, an industry trend and would that change in any way moving forward?

[Allison Schrager]

I mean, I don't think it's a trend, unfortunately. Most notably, Danny Meyer here in New York tried doing it and you can imagine like his servers ended up getting a lot less money than servers at other high end restaurants. So he ended up having to drop it during the pandemic when things just got like really desperate for workers. So the issue with it is I said servers hate it. Everyone else in the restaurant industry likes it. So while it's a bit of a trend, I don't see it going anywhere. In fact, the trend seems to be the opposite. It seems like you're asked for tips constantly for everything though.

[Scott Bertram]

Indeed. Allison Schrager is Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute, also a Bloomberg columnist, and you can find her on X. AlisonSchrager Allison, thank you so much for joining us here on Future of Freedom. We thank both of our guests for joining us. Andy Puzder, CEO of CKE Restaurants for 16 years, distinguished visiting Fellow at Heritage, senior Fellow at America First Policy Institute and on X at Andy Puzder and Alison Schrager, Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute and Bloomberg columnist. [e-mail] for additional episodes of the Future of Freedom podcast and other fine podcasts from America's Talking network, check out americastalking.com or anywhere you find your audio. Thank you for listening to Future of Freedom, presented by America's Talking Network.