Future of Freedom – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Simon Hankinson & Brent Orrell: Should the U.S. Rethink the H-1B Visa Program?
Host: Scot Bertram
Guests:

• Simon Hankinson, Senior Research Fellow, Border Security and Immigration Center, Heritage Foundation
• Brent Orell, Senior Fellow, American Enterprise Institute (AEI)
  Release Date: November 12, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of Future of Freedom tackles the contentious issue of the H-1B visa program in the United States. Host Scot Bertram facilitates a civil, in-depth exchange between Simon Hankinson, a critic of the current H-1B system, and Brent Orell, who supports a more open policy. Covering recent policy changes, labor market impacts, and the broader innovation economy, the conversation draws out key areas of agreement and contention about the program's future.

Key Discussion Points

1. Purpose and Evolution of the H-1B Visa Program

• Simon Hankinson’s Perspective
  • Originally designed in 1990 to supply a “fairly limited number of highly skilled specialty workers” at a time of tech boom and supposed lack of qualified Americans ([01:08]).
  • Over time, the program has “expanded far beyond what it was intended to be and largely become an immigrant visa program” ([01:25]).
  • Critiques the program's shift: “The numbers have blown out of proportion and... it’s become a permanent visa,” replacing American workers with cheaper foreign labor ([02:40]).

2. How Outsourcing Companies Exploit the H-1B System

• Many top H-1B employers are foreign-based outsourcers who use the system to staff US companies with contract workers, often undercutting wages ([03:34]).
• Hankinson: “There will be a middleman company which will petition for an H1B and then, when they get to America, farm them out to go work at Google. So they take a cut... like a labor broker.” ([04:07])

3. Debating the Tech Labor Shortage Narrative

• Hankinson challenges the claim that there is a shortage: “No, I think that's just what they've been saying... their job is to make money and they want to do that by hiring the cheapest possible labor they can get” ([04:56]).
• Presents data: “71% of the jobs in Silicon Valley… have gone to foreign workers… at the same time, 74%... of Americans who have STEM degrees… haven't taken a job in a STEM field” ([05:18]).
• Points to layoffs and underemployment for STEM grads: “Three out of four Americans with STEM degrees can’t get a job in a STEM field” ([05:22]).

4. Effectiveness of New Policy Penalties

• Bertram asks if the Trump administration’s $100,000 H-1B application fee will dissuade companies ([06:12]).
• Hankinson: “No, that's the short answer… They have such huge, huge profits… $100,000 disappears pretty quickly when you average it out” ([06:39]).
• Notes loopholes: Fee does not apply to those already in the US on other visas.

5. Policy Reform Ideas

• Hankinson suggests:
  • Use O-1 visas (“Einstein visa”) for true top talent ([08:12]).
  • Raise H-1B minimum wage from outdated $60,000 to reflect current market ([08:30]).
  • Implement competitive bidding for visas to prevent wage suppression.
  • “What they object to is taking an American… and saying hey, sorry, you gotta train your replacement because we're bringing in a cheap foreign worker to save money, good luck finding a job” ([09:15]).

6. Labor Market Realities and AI Uncertainties

• “Half of kids who graduated in the last year have not found a job… We've got a weird economy right now” ([10:21]).
• AI is creating uncertainty in hiring: “I think artificial intelligence has thrown up a giant question mark that no one really understands” ([10:51]).

7. Risks to Innovation vs. Protecting Domestic Workers

• Hankinson dismisses concerns about stifling innovation: “What this program largely does is bring in average workers… 80% are actually paid below the average wage in their field” ([11:41]).
• Asserts existing channels suffice for “the geniuses.”

8. Political and Institutional Barriers to Reform

• “There are interest groups… employers, ethnic lobbies, politicians with local concerns. H1B has some lobbying muscle behind it” ([13:07]).
• Hankinson points to fraud in the transition from H-1B to green card (“perm process”) and notes the DOJ is starting to prosecute abuses ([13:46]).

9. Brent Orell’s Counterperspective: The Need for Global Talent

America’s Talent Shortage and Economic Demands

• Orell sees both supply and demand challenges: “We have an enormous and vibrant highly productive high tech sector… It's not a question of can we fill it or not. It's a question of what are we leaving on the table” ([15:15]).
• Argues, “There’s no such thing as having too many people with advanced STEM degrees” ([16:34]).

On Wage Suppression Concerns

• Disputes wage suppression claims: “The talent is so scarce globally that I don't think anybody's getting away with anything” ([17:12]).
• Emphasizes the difficulty of STEM work: “There’s only so many people who... have the skills, the educational background, and frankly, intelligence... to fill these, what are mainly research jobs” ([16:57]).

Impact of the $100,000 H-1B Surcharge

• Orell: “$100,000 for Nvidia or Google or Meta is like the money they lose in their couch cushions… It's really in the area of startups… who have to scrape and scramble… They don't have $100,000 laying around” ([18:18]).
• Predicts the fee will entrench large firms' advantages and suppress innovation from startups.

Risk of Losing Talent to Other Countries

• US may lose appeal relative to countries like Canada and Europe, which are both advanced and “very welcoming to outsiders” ([19:47]).
• “We have given up one of our main advantages for attracting high tech workforce: freedom, freedom to create and freedom to be integrated into our society” ([20:58]).
• Not just about money; it’s about opportunity, stability, and rights.

Political Dynamics in Tech Industry

• Tech leaders try to avoid political backlash: “They were trying to say two diametrically opposed things... we support tougher immigration laws and we support H1B visas for the tech industry” ([22:25]).
• Orell suggests, “In their heart of hearts… it’s a huge advantage for them and their businesses and a major loss in terms of brain power for the United States” ([23:19]).

Domestic Talent Development

• Sees limits to building all needed talent in-house: “Demand is unlimited... supply, for whatever reason, is limited among Americans. It goes to just how difficult this kind of work is and how rare it is to find the skill sets” ([24:00]).

Potential Consequences of Tougher Policy

• Orell: “We could be sending talent to foreign adversaries… We are the technology giant… but that’s not like a birthright. That is something the US has to continually cultivate. So... we're narrowing the margin of our own lead through policies that discourage immigration for H1B workers” ([26:26]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Simon Hankinson:

  • “We've got girls who code, minorities who code. Everyone's being shoved into this supposed pipeline to prosperity, but when they graduate, they're not finding jobs.” ([05:22])
  • “If you find me 25 cents for speeding, it's not going to make much difference because I can afford it.” ([06:51])
  • “Amongst the millions of H1B workers, there might be a few gems that get screened out. But by and large, tightening up on H1Bs will protect American workers.” ([12:14])

• Brent Orell:

  • “There’s no such thing as having too many people with advanced STEM degrees… they contribute a disproportionately high amount… of our total economic activity.” ([16:34])
  • “$100,000 for Nvidia or Google or Meta is like the money they lose in their couch cushions.” ([18:22])
  • “One of our main advantages for attracting high tech workforce is freedom… I definitely think it's not just money… It's also about the stability and the rights and the freedom that we enjoy.” ([20:56])
  • “We are the technology giant… But that’s not like a birthright. That is something the US has to continually cultivate.” ([26:38])

Key Timestamps

| Segment | Content | Timestamp | |---------|---------|-----------| | Introduction & Simon Hankinson Interview | Background on H-1B, program’s history, critique | 00:08 – 14:31 | | What’s Changed About H-1B | Expansion, cap increases, permanent status | 01:08 – 03:20 | | Outsourcers’ Use of H-1B | Middlemen staffing big tech | 03:34 – 04:36 | | Tech Labor Market Dynamics | Challenging the “shortage” argument | 04:56 – 06:12 | | Impact of Trump EO, Penalties | Effectiveness of new $100,000 fee | 06:12 – 07:54 | | Policy Solutions | O-1 visas, salary increases | 08:12 – 09:42 | | Labor Market & AI | Unemployed grads, AI uncertainty | 10:01 – 11:18 | | Innovation Risks | Balance of job protection vs. talent | 11:18 – 12:43 | | Barriers to Reform | Lobbying, fraud in green card process | 13:07 – 14:17 | | Brent Orell Interview | Counterpoint, economic and policy concerns | 14:32 – 27:39 | | US STEM Talent Shortage | Structural limits | 15:15 – 16:34 | | Wage Suppression? | Disputes evidence | 16:34 – 17:59 | | $100K Fee’s Impact | Large vs. small firms | 18:18 – 19:30 | | Competition for Global Talent | Other countries’ openness | 19:47 – 21:39 | | Tech Industry Politics | Messaging on H-1B | 21:39 – 23:44 | | Training Domestic Talent | Structural difficulty | 24:00 – 25:11 | | Policy Consequences | Eroding America’s lead | 26:08 – 27:39 |

Conclusion

This episode offers a substantive, multifaceted look at the H-1B visa debate. Scot Bertram’s guests represent divergent philosophies: Simon Hankinson argues the US should recalibrate the system to preserve jobs and wages for American citizens, tightening loopholes and raising standards; Brent Orell insists the program feeds the US innovation engine and that turning away high-skilled immigrants is an own goal that will erode America’s global tech leadership.

Ideal for listeners who want:

• A nuanced, fact-driven overview of H-1B policy debates
• Insight into the economic, political, and human sides of skilled immigration
• Perspective from both conservative (Heritage) and market-oriented (AEI) think tanks

Memorable Takeaway:

“We are the technology giant… but that’s not like a birthright. That is something the US has to continually cultivate.”
— Brent Orell ([26:38])