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Gaelic – Conversations about Indigenous Languages, Culture, and Identity in the 21st Century
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Language activists, elders & teachers from the Atlantic to the Pacific
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On Globalization
Sep 28, 2011Tap to summarizeClick here to listen to conversations in English on Globalization with Maori and Gaelic speakers involved with indigenous language revitalization efforts. (left click to listen, right click and ‘save target as…’ to download) See below for a transcription: Makere Stewart-Harawira: Where does indigenous self determination sit in this mix and what is it that is the really critical thing about this revitalization of language and culture? What is the really important…why is it so important? What is critical about that? Huge questions, too big, I know… Sir Mason Durie: I will try and tackle the last one because it might lead on and just talking off the top of my head if that is all right? I see that whole indigenous movement and I am putting in the movement the language cultural revitalization and the political independence or a variant of it to a greater or lesser extent. Through the whole indigenous movement to me it’s done two things. First of all I think it is potentially acting as a protector of the worst excesses of globalization. So that I think that and If you just take New Zealand situation for example, New Zealands always short of money or we’ve got a surplus but we’re an economy that’s relatively vulnerable in size and natural resources, limited markets , competitive markets concerned with a whole lot of other players. And Therefore we are potentially open I think to take over from other companies and it would not be a huge step of the imagination. Some people say it is already happening. That to make end meet we’ll simply sell the land and let foreign investors come in. I think to a large extent the indigenous approach acts as a counter to that. It doesn’t entirely block it but I think steadies it and I think that’s quite important for the nation as a whole as the nation works out where it stands in the global development. How much we want to be a part of it and the terms of our participation in it. And what I see as the Maori movement as saying “Well hold on let’s not rush that because who earns the resources is compromising our understanding of it” and I think that’s quite an important restraint. Maybe for two or three decades it’s going to be an important constraint as New Zealand works out what is going to be the basis of its economy and what does it have to sell off in order to partner up with global enterprise. So I think that is one thing that is quite important but on the other hand I think that the indigenous rejuvenation and reassertion is in fact a global movement. It’s not, It is certainly not unique to Maori, and so by getting involved in that there is already a move to be part of a global movement and global citizenship has got more than one meaning in the sense and that in enables Maori to be part of the indigenous world movement and that’s been quite important I think as, and not only important in terms of a sense of solidarity that economically is going to be important too you can imagine business ventures and economic where you’ll get preferred providers who might happen to be Indigenous whether it is in fishing or some other arrangement. So I think that Maori-if there hadn’t been this rejuvenation and revitalization the sense of being Indigenous would not have escalated to the degree that it is at now so that we can participate as citizens in that sense. But then the other point is, that certainly from our end, we’ve had this slogan since 2001 which is now part of the education departments broad direction for Maori education is that it should be possible for Maori to live as Maori and be citizens of the world. And so we’ve got that joint, dual pathway, and the sense now in education, I don’t think they are doing a particularly great job at doing it, one should not be at the expense of the other, need not be at the expense of the other. Living as Maori and being citizens of the world are joint requirements in modern times and the education policy needs to be able to see that that is possible, that you don’t have to sacrifice one for the other. And then because Maori mobility has just sort of escalated. 200,000 or so in Australia at present, all around the world so that Maori movement across the globe is pretty high and the other question that seems to come up now that while it’s been good I think, its taken people out. It hasn’t reduced the interest of the global travelers in being Maori and then some quite interesting developments as to how you can be a global traveller and be Maori and still retain links with networks provided you use the technology and so there is quite a lot of whânau [extended family groups or members] now who meet on the web and that never have an annual meeting, the meeting is on the web and that last year there was a tangi [funeral] done on the web that a group could not return from Australia. There were two or three whânau in Australia and the thing was there was an interactive telecast which enabled them to participate from Australia as if they were here and so there was [???] an opportunity for them to say what they wanted to say to come and close ups meet the people who were there. I think that was quite a good demonstration of how in the end distance won’t be a problem and being a global traveller. In fact it might actually be much easier . Its just that one of the big problems getting whânau to agree on things. It’s actually easier on the web where you don’t get all the eye rolling and the body language, particularly if you are just doing email, you get straight to the point, do the business, and make clear decisions. Whereas quite often in a face to face meeting decisions are left unclear because you are responding all the time with body language and you prefer not to be too specific. So in terms of being Maori and being a global citizen there need not be a contradiction in that. and the other thing of course is that you have Maori groups around the world. In London and in Sydney in particular and now in Perth who really might become serious contenders for winning the national kapahaka [cultural competition] in a year or twos time so that there is a diaspora occurring which may not be a bad thing. And you can imagine that if New Zealand did get sold out to foreigner investors the culture might actually be retained in London and in Sydney and in Perth as much as it is in New Zealand. In other words it might be a little bit like the Jewish situation; that the retention of the religion and the faith and the culture was the result of people going away from the troubled land until such times as they could come back. And I think the same is happening in Ethiopia right now that when the political climate got really bad there parents who could afford it, sent the young people off to universities all around the world. That was two or three decades ago. Only now are those peopling coming back home now that it is safe to come home. They come home and they also bring skills and knowledge that would not have been available to the nation. So I think there is a very useful opportunity here that we sometimes see it as a threat. I see it really as opportunities and a protective device, protection in two ways. Maori are protecting New Zealand from takeover by saying “hold on I don’t think you own it. Don’t sell it because I don’t think you own it or you have got to contend with other issues”. There is that sort of protection, that sort of constraint but also the constraint that by Maori being around the world they need not forfeit a Maori identity. In fact quite with the right use of technology which will get better and better I would think. It will be easier and easier to retain that. Certainly they won’t have a foot on the ground and that may be a bit of an obstacle. Yes some of the whânau hopefully will retain their ahi ka [keeping the home fires burning, or place on the land] interest for them so they needn’t, they won’t be entirely displaced as would have happened a couple of decades or even one decade ago when people went abroad. … Patu Hohepa: The web does a lot of damage to our stories. When Manuka Henare and that one takes out from a well-liked Hokianga identity…who built a beautiful marae at the back. Beautifully carved and had his own whanau’s but, he’s decided now to start putting things on the web. And then he gets quoted so I find it in here, which becomes pretty well the book of history of our traditional landscape and he’s quoted two things I said, wrong. KUPE live on the other side – that’s part of the tradition and he named a whole lot of other areas- that’s well known. He named PAKANAE for the place where the y built the PA or the fish pond to hold the fish in and this other place that is named -can’t find the source for that but it is fine because it does fit in. Didn’t know that actually the part that held the fish in was a reef called TABAKEROA TABAKA from TABAKEROA the long tailed f…git bird that give you long red feathers. Okay. The TAWAKEROA and that would have been part of the defence that they put there, rocks and that to stop. KANAE will go in but they can’t get out. Also he crossed, because the sand hills were not a good place for growing AKUMBAHI gardens that the Kumara brought across. The Kumara did not come into the country until the time of Toi. Eight generations further on. Now it’s that kind. MAKERE: So it’s about, we don’t and it really isn’t and excuse, and I’m guilty of it myself having said that. We don’t go to primary source. We rely on other people to tell us those traditions and there they are and they go on the web and use them as is. PATU: And they go on the w...
Transcribe →Gaelic scholar and poet Maoilios Caimbeul on Globalization
Sep 27, 2011Tap to summarizeimage credit: Mike Mackay Click here to listen to a conversation with Gaelic author, scholar and poet, Maoilios Caimbeul of Skye, on the impacts of globalization on Gaelic (left click to listen, right click and ‘save target as…’ to download) See below for a transcription of this conversation: Maoilios Um…there is a person in Edinburgh university, I knew it was Clauss(?) as well (laughs) Ma- Oh really (laughs) Maoilios I first, she’s done a study of this, she’s doing a PhD on how things have translated from one language to the other. Ma- Ahh Maoilios It’s the political aspect of it which is Maoilios sure Ma- This neo-colonial literature and all the rest of it and different colonies, you know? But um…there’s the political aspect, but there is also the translation aspect. and when your translating from one language to another, you don’t, uh, necessarily, it’s very difficult tranl-, maybe translation is the wrong word, maybe transposition is another word, or a version, there’s a really good on, a Gaelic poet, and he uses the word version. What you get when your translating another language is very different, you know, it’s not the same thing. It’s ah, totally different (laughs), ah, a artifact, uh…um, once you translate, and um there’s a Gaelic poem on one side, and English poem on the other, and it’s, and it’s, people are going to ask, well, which is the original poem? Which is the original? So that’s, that’s the political aspect of it. What, the objection I have to it is that when it comes to Gaelic schools Ma- Hmm, hmm Maoilios And you’re giving books to the pupils Ma-hmm hmm Maoilios Ah, they want to read in the Gaelic language, you know? Ma- Hmm, hmm Maoilios And if you’ve got English as well they are going to be referring to the English all the time- Ma- All the time. Maoilios So, it’s not a good thing in my opinion, there’s got to be some way of getting round that Ma- Yes Maoilios And um, of course, it’s important as well to communicate with the wider world, and I don’t think, I’m not saying there is anything wrong with doing versions, or transpositions, it’s a good thing probably, you know, but there should also be a niche for the Gaelic only thing, you know, I think Ma- I know that in our Maori, um pre-school, ______? at home they found that uh, the children who…were completely immersed in Maori and who, you know, especially if they had Maori at home, become very fluent Maoilios yes, yes Ma- Once they’re exposed to the two- Maoilios hmm, hmm Ma- like, that’s no longer a version. uhhh, kind of a bi-lingualism, it’s um, it’s, it’s, pretty ineffective Maoilios yeah Ma- Umm Click here to download a .doc file of this transcription
Transcribe →Indigenous Language Conversations on Education
Sep 27, 2011Tap to summarizeClick here to listen to English conversations on education from Maori and Gaelic speakers involved with language revitalization (left click to listen, right click and ‘save target as…’ to download)
Transcribe →Gaelic scholar and poet Maoilios Caimbeul of Skye, on Gaelic language and education
Sep 27, 2011Tap to summarizeimage credit: Mike Mackay Click here to listen to scholar and poet, Maoilios Caimbeul of Skye, talking about education and the Gaelic language (left click to listen, right click and ‘save target as…’ to download) – – See below for a transcript of this conversation: Ma-Well you know William Gillies said to me a couple of years ago, he made the comment that communities are disintegrating and even in the Western Isles and Lewis, and then he said but new communities are forming and some of them are diasporic communities and people that are, you know, parents may have left, like my dad, or whatever, and he said some of them are green minded communities and maybe they are the ones that will bring back the Gaelic, and yet yes and no, and I hear there is an ambivalence around that and there is a part that want’s to say “no, no” because, and I heard that in GalGael from young Seamus, when I mentioned that he said “oh, but they’ll never have it right and it’ll never be the same, and that’s true. Maoilios That’s true because it’s an organic thing, culture is organic and if you try and, you know, to artificially bring it back you’re going to get artificiality. Ma- Yes, somebody else’s hybrid version of what they think. Ma- Ah, yes, yes. Maoilios And the difference is that if you learn Gaelic from the knee, you learn it with traditions and so on, you learn, you’re not learning, you’re just soaking it in as you grow up. Whereas, if you learn a language you don’t learn it in that way you learn it in some other way. It’s a different procedure isn’t it, learning? In a community of speakers that are doing it, just as a necessity as it were, you know, life as a necessity, they’ve got to earn a living, you don’t think about the language at all. Ma- That’s right. Maoilios But a part of life Ma- So, we lose a great deal in that I think, you know, in that yes we can become semi-fluent in that, learning it at university or college or e-learning or whatever, but I hear this at home and this is part of what gave rise to part of my question there, was, well listen to these, especially with some of the male speakers at home and there, you know, their fluent as such, and they’ll strut their stuff, and they’ll stand and they’ll speak and they’ll know their [maori word?] customs or whatever, they’re proud young Maori males. But often when I sit and listen I know that they don’t really know the meaning of what they are saying in a deeper sense or they would not be saying and doing the way they are saying and doing and they would be learning different ways of things and I see it and I hear it when I listen. And I think, (sigh) I mean they don’t know what they don’t know, but with that though, is not knowing particular kinds of values and those values are missing in their articulations and all of their things. … Maoilios Well, my, I’m not the son of a crofter for starts. My father was a, he came from a crofting family, my father, but Ma- right Maoilios but he was a missionary in the Church, in the Free Church of Scotland Ma- Ahh Maoilios In fact he was a missionary in Staffin(?) here Ma- Ohh, Maoilios My mother was in Staffin(?) and married Ma- Right Maoilios In fact he was from this croft here Ma- Ah! How lovely! Maoilios (chuckles) Yes, and that, so Ma- yeah Maoilios He, he, would be staying in a place for a couple of years, two of three years and then the church would move on to some other places, and so I started life in Staffin(?), I was in Uin/Uig(?) which is across the way, um….until I was four of five, and then we moved to Borve/Borgh (?) in Lewis and that’s when I went to school Ma- ah huh Maoilios A Gaelic speaking, um a Gaelic speaking village, uh district in Lewis Borve/Borgh (?). I went to school there, I couldn’t speak any English, it was just “Yes” and “No”, uh, any, I couldn’t speak any English, it was just “Yes” and “No”, but when I went to the school the teaching was done through the medium of English, so you soon learned the English. Ma- Hmm Maoilios So I became bi-lingual Ma- Right Maoilios And then, from Borve/Borgh(?) I went to Waterinshin(?) and I went to school in Waterinshin(?) for a couple of years. Until my father moved back to Staffin(?) when I was eight years old. And we was here for four years, and I went to primary school for three years…umm…but none of these schools I went to taught the medium of Gaelic. Ma- Ahh, Maoilios Although the people, mostly, all spoke Gaelic, and we spoke Gaelic to each other Ma- Hmm, hmm. Maoilios and um Ma- Was that frowned on? Maoilios Um, not in my day, but you hear stories about people…generation before me being….maybe some of my generation as well, being reprimanded- Ma- Wow. Maoilios They used to grab a stick, not in my generation, before that, they used to use a stick on a person Ma- (sighs) Maoilios so a person, you passed it on if you spoke Gaelic, the person, the last person of the day to speak Gaelic got a stick down their neck (laughs) Ma- (breaths in) Maoilios yeah. That was done, in, probably the beginning of the twentieth century, or in the late eighteenth(?), yeah. And, so , I that’s the kind of life I had. And then from Staffin (?) we moved to Glenelg (?) on the mainland which was the only I was in where Gaelic wasn’t the dominant language, and my father had to learn to preach in English there (laughs)….because, they couldn’t- not enough people understood Gaelic there Ma- Right Maoilios and so it was a bit awkward, though he managed. Ma- Oh my goodness, right. Maoilios Um….and there, from there we left, we left to go to Afmore(?) on Lewis again I went to Lewis Castle College in Stornoway and I was there until I was 16 and then I went off to sea. Ma- There a teacher that’s speaking Gaelic in Stornoway at the time? Maoilios Teachers? Ma- Did they Gaelic, or did they teach in Gaelic? Maoilios Not in, not in the college Ma- right My –It was a technical college, I did ma- I did navigation. Ma- right Maoilios Seamanship and in the Nickelson Institute, I was there for a term, there is a big school in Stornoway (? ) of course they had Gaelic there, they talked Gaelic there, Ma- Right Maoilios in Gaelic classes, not through the medium of Gaelic though as a subject Ma- Ahh, ok Maoilios Cause a strange sort of thing happens in secondary schools- Ma–Yes Maoilios You’re taught Gaelic, um, through the medium of English Ma- I remember learning French like that (laughs) Maoilios Um, I’m not sure…If it was, I suppose…If the natives, if there was a native speakers class they would uh, probably you know, speaking Gaelic I would think. But even in University, when I went to EdinburghUniversityin the Celtic Department indeed, it was English that was spoken. And they kept, And that was the 1970’s, they were speaking, doing the Gaelic course through the medium of English. It was a bit strange. Ma- (laughs) that is a bit strange indeed. … Ma- So in the 70’s when you were a teacher training, that was as a Gaelic medium teacher? Maoilios Umm…It was as a Gaelic teacher, and I was teaching in the secondary schools Ma- right Maoilios As I said before, in the secondary schools, uh Gaelic is taught through the medium of English funny enough (laughs) to learners, I’m talking about. Ma- Yes, sure. Maoilios When learners come into the school, first year, second year- Ma- Right. Maoilios And…they don’t have any Gaelic, so you teach them from books and so on, and that’s the way it’s taught. Ma- No wonder it doesn’t work. Maoilios Exactly, it’s like they teach French, it’s like teaching a foreign language, and materials from the S.Q.A. are aimed at that. You know? Ma-Ahhh Maoilios The Scottish Qualifications Authority … Maoilios in the 80’s things changed you know? Ma- Uh huh. Maoilios In the 19- from about 1985 onwards there was a Gaelic medium school set up in Renayous (?). um, a primary school and um…so, that was, these were children being taught in the medium of Gaelic. And now things have moved on to the extent that in places like Portree, you’ve got 4-5 subjects in the secondary school being taught in the medium of Gaelic. Ma- Ahhh Maoilios So the children are coming through from the primary school into the secondary. It’s not happening enough, there’s a lot of difficulties, particularly in getting teachers. Ma- Ok. Right. Maoilios Teachers who are subject teachers and can teach Gaelic, that’s a big difficulty. Ma- Subject teachers teaching Gaelic is huge as the same with Maori at home, it’s just, and what we found is that Maori, well at one stretch they had a policy of taking a fluent Maori speaker off wherever, put them through a crash course in teaching, turned them out the other side as the Maori teacher, who taught Maori, taught in Maori, taught maths, geography, whatever, whatever, whatever, a series would be in Maori. Maoilios Hmm Ma- On ...
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