A Lackluster Game 7, SGA the MVP, and Rich Goes Deep | Game Over

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

Host: The Ringer
Episode: A Lackluster Game 7, SGA the MVP, and Rich Goes Deep | Game Over
Date: May 18, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the NBA Conference Finals matchups, the fallout from a disappointing Game 7, deep reflections on player value and greatness, and a thoughtful, personal discussion as Rich Paul opens up about his upbringing. Max and Rich keep the conversation lively and insightful, mixing high-level basketball analysis with candid cultural takes and personal storytelling.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. NBA Conference Finals Set: Knicks vs. Cavs & Spurs vs. Thunder

Timestamps: 01:17 – 22:00; 37:03 – 38:00

• Max and Rich celebrate the unpredictability of the Conference Finals:

  • "When was the last time, going into each conference finals, you’re like, I don’t know who’s going to win this? ... Either conference final could go either way. That’s good for the NBA." – Max (01:27)

• Cleveland Cavaliers’ resurgence and hometown pride for both Rich (Cleveland) and Max (New York):

  • "Me being from Cleveland, it’s...something that’s great for the city for sure. They haven’t had this." – Rich (02:42)

---

2. Game 7 Recap: Cavs Crush Pistons

Timestamps: 10:02 – 13:37

• Rich and Max analyze the Cavs' dominant performance:

  • "They looked like the more hungry team tonight. They were clicking on all cylinders… at some point in the third quarter, it just looks like Detroit was just like, you know what? We’ve had enough." – Rich (10:02)
  • "Detroit couldn’t hit a shot to save their lives... In an era of all the three point shooting, there’s wild variance right from game to game." – Max (10:48)

• Discussion about Donovan Mitchell exceeding expectations:

  • "Donovan Mitchell is playing like a real number one deep in the playoffs. Very aggressive and very effective." – Max (11:21)
  • "It wasn’t a lot of points, but it was one of the better games I’ve seen him play tonight... no turnovers, assists, active on defense, getting his hand in there and getting steals. He played a very holistic game tonight.” – Rich (12:37)

---

3. Knicks vs. Cavs: Series Preview

Timestamps: 13:37 – 20:49

• Concerns about the Cavs’ defensive rebounding and overall toughness:

  • "Why are they having a problem on the glass?" – Max (14:15)
  • "That’s just being dialed in to want to do that." – Rich (15:13)
  • "If the Knicks have a tougher mentality than the Cavs, they’re going to win." – Rich (19:55)

• Talent vs. grit dynamic:

  • “The Cavs have the better roster, more talent. But the Knicks are just tougher.” – Max (14:08; 19:55)

• Key matchup: Guarding Jalen Brunson

  • “Brunson can’t beat you by a shot... Let him score 50. It’s the other guys that can’t beat you if you’re the Cavs.” – Rich (18:19)

• Predictions:

  • "I’m going to say Knicks in 6." – Max (20:12)
  • “If the Cavs were to win… it will be in seven games. If the series goes six, the Knicks will win.” – Rich (20:40)

---

4. Spurs vs. Thunder: Clash of the Titans

Timestamps: 21:03 – 26:36

• Max and Rich make their picks for the “King Kong vs. Godzilla” series:

  • “I’m picking the Spurs.” – Both (21:33)
  • “When teams are essentially evenly matched, give me the team with the best player. Wemby, as I’ve also been saying since the middle of the season, is the best player in basketball.” – Max (21:55)

• Wemby vs. SGA discussion:

  • “Who’s the best player in the series?” – Max (22:37)
  • “The most impactful player is Wemby.” – Rich (22:40)
  • "SGA’s the MVP, though." – Rich (22:07)

• Keys to the series:

  • Shooting variance, live-ball turnovers, and bench depth: "On both benches ... you know what that's called? Depth." – Max (26:36)
  • “You can’t have live ball turnovers against the Thunder. That is key.” – Rich (26:05)

---

5. SGA Back-to-Back MVP: Value and Greatness Debate

Timestamps: 26:53 – 51:17

• Announcement and controversy:

  • "SGA wins the MVP again... And my guy Shams announced it." – Rich (26:53)
  • Discussion on Shams Charania’s work ethic and leaking the MVP before official broadcast (27:10 – 28:17)

• Comparing SGA to legends:

  • “SGA gets the MVP... He’s a champion and a finals MVP... But I don’t get the feeling that I’m looking at a guy who one day is going to be in the GOAT conversation. So who comes to mind to me is Kobe.” – Max (38:00)
  • "Shay is more efficient than Kobe ever was... But people who lived through both eras will know that’s not true." – Max (41:53)
  • “Let Shay have his moment... Not about to take Shay’s moment, which is what we do on all these shows." – Rich (43:49)
  • “Comparison is the thief of joy.” – Rich Paul (44:01, echoed by Max)
  • Level of SGA’s greatness vs. other all-time guards and MVPs:
    • "Would you put him over already CP3? Yes. Gary Payton? I think you have to." – Max & Rich (50:10)
    • “Shay is doing a lot...There is levels.” – Rich (50:34)

• All-time hierarchy and “best player in the game” nuance:

  • “I don’t think Shay’s ever been the best player in the game… I think Jokic was the best player… I think Wemby’s the best player in the game this year.” – Max (50:52)

---

6. Listener Q&A and Cultural/Personal Segments

Timestamps: 53:14 – 84:56

• Emails & Voicemail:

  • Proposed mega trade scenarios (LeBron and Giannis in Miami): "Pat, Giannis, and Bam have the same agent... Does Giannis and Bam coincide?" – Rich (54:12)
  • Story clarifying the “cookies on the plane” myth in Miami and how narratives become distorted (54:22)

• International perspective:

  • Can Chinese brands become mainstream in the U.S.?
    • “If they can’t crack the grassroots, then it’s gonna be tough... You have to have kids grow up with it.” – Rich (57:00)
    • “It’s about the right ambassador who has an impact on culture to move product.” – Rich (59:14)

• On Joel Embiid’s trade value (Voicemail):

  • “Joel has a guaranteed deal that actually starts this year. So there’s no restructuring. He’ll be a Sixer.” – Rich (63:14)
  • "Never seen in any sport... a player who's undeniably elite if he's on the court, who has negative trade value." – Max (63:26)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the essence of playoff basketball:

  • "Toughness. Cavs. Knicks. That’s it. You could talk shots, you could talk pick and roll, you could talk. If the Knicks have a tougher mentality than the Cavs, they’re going to win the series." – Rich (19:55)

• On SGA’s MVP and appreciation:

  • "Let Shay have his moment... Not about to take Shay’s moment, which is what we do on all these shows." – Rich (43:49)
  • “Comparison is the thief of joy.” – Rich (44:01)

• Perspectives on childhood, family, and resilience:
  (Deep reflective section as Rich Paul opens up)

  • “Every child wants to be around their mom... I was always in somebody else’s car. I was always at somebody else’s house... There has to be some sadness about not having the thing that you must have wanted more… But looking back, you wouldn’t be you without it.” – Max (73:51)
  • “It’s what I would say a gift and a curse…The gift is how I was molded. The curse is…not having a mother’s love all the time creates something totally different now for me.” – Rich (73:51; 75:38)
  • “I would trade everything just to have their presence. Number one.” – Rich (81:54)

---

Additional Segments

• Lighter banter: Far-ranging talk on sleep habits and family rituals; running shoes and sneaker culture; gum and grandmothers (“The Big Red is serious. That's a lie!” – Rich, 37:52).
• Listener Game Teased: Next episode will feature a Venn diagram-style debate: “Needs to win vs. Loves to play the game.” (67:20)
• Rich's Book “Lucky Me”: Reflections on the memoir, its meaning, life rules, and the struggle to read through LeBron’s forward (86:18 – 87:15).

---

Episode Structure & Timestamps

• 00:36 – 10:02: Conference Finals set up, memories, and team travels
• 10:02 – 13:37: Cavs-Pistons Game 7 deep dive
• 13:37 – 22:00: Knicks-Cavs analysis; matchup projections and predictions
• 22:00 – 26:36: Spurs-Thunder preview and star player comparison
• 26:53 – 51:17: MVP controversy, comparing eras and all-time greats
• 53:14 – 62:01: Listener emails and international basketball perspectives
• 62:08 – 65:32: Voicemail: Joel Embiid’s contract and legacy
• 65:32 – 87:56: Rich Paul's emotional reflections on childhood and father/mother relationships, discussion of his memoir
• Miscellaneous/Banter throughout

---

Conclusion

This episode is a standout for its blend of live playoff energy, sharp basketball insight, debates over greatness (and the flaws of constant comparison), and unusually honest, personal reflection from Rich Paul. Whether you’re thinking about how SGA stacks up with the all-time great guards, or you’re reflecting on what really forms a champion (both in basketball and in life), you’ll find both analysis and heart in this discussion.

---

Next up: Who are the greatest “clutch” athletes across sports, and the “Needs to Win vs. Loves to Play the Game” debate!

Transcript

[Rich Paul]

This episode is brought to you by Paramount. Beth and Rip are back in a new series. Dutton Ranch. Kelly Reilly and Cole Hazard returned, and this time they're taking on Texas as Beth and Rip build a future together. Peace will have to wait as they face corruption, danger, and a ruthless rival ranch willing to protect its secrets at all costs. Legacy is a beautiful thing, but only if it survives. Dutton Ranch Starring Cole Hauser, Kelly Reilly, Annette Bening, Annette Harris. Now streaming on Paramount +. Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Yo. First of all, before we even do anything,

[Rich Paul]

you never seen these before?

[Max Kellerman]

I have to be honest, I have.

[Rich Paul]

Not a little Clark action.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Different type of Clark.

[Max Kellerman]

I could see that. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

They kind of mix like a. Obviously, Clark's always makes wallabies, but these are like.

[Max Kellerman]

The only Clark's ever had were wallabies.

[Rich Paul]

Right. But these are like the beef and broccoli, slash, you know, so beef and broccoli.

[Max Kellerman]

Where's the beef? I see the broccoli. Where's the beef?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, it's. It's. Yeah, it's a little. It's a little. It's a little.

[Max Kellerman]

It's like unseasoned.

[Rich Paul]

It's baked. It's baked chicken. It's baked chicken.

[Max Kellerman]

Those are fresh. Whatever they are. Thank you.

[Rich Paul]

I appreciate it, man. Appreciate it.

[Max Kellerman]

So, yeah. You're gonna ask me something, though.

[Rich Paul]

No, I was just gonna say it's set. Eastern Conference finals is western. Eastern Conference finals is set. And the Western Conference finals is set. Yep. How are you feeling?

[Max Kellerman]

I feel like this is. I don't remember. Maybe I'm prisoner of the moment. When was the last time, going into each conference finals, you're like, I don't know who's going to win this? I have. I suspect the Knicks will beat that. We'll get into it. But either conference final could go either way. It's not usually like that. And that's good for the.

[Rich Paul]

I think. Look, if we can get two game sevens out of these finals, the NBA

[Max Kellerman]

will be, first of all, your hometown and my hometown.

[Rich Paul]

I know. I was gonna say that.

[Max Kellerman]

Cleveland, New York. We're gonna have to do something from Cleveland, something from New York.

[Rich Paul]

Maybe we should go to Cleveland and do it from, like, the State Theater.

[Max Kellerman]

Wherever you want, you tell me.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, we'd do a live show if we could.

[Max Kellerman]

First of all, I'm used to. I'm used to going to Cleveland and the Bay Area this time of year. You. You know what I mean? Like, for four years.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, for four years straight. Which. Those. Going to those games was crazy. They have a 1055 flight that gets you back to Cleveland from San Francisco and going from the bay to get across to go to San Francisco, you take that flight.

[Max Kellerman]

And we used to run into each other at the hotels all the time.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, all the time. Yeah. Four seasons right there.

[Max Kellerman]

Four seasons.

[Rich Paul]

I'm excited about it. Obviously, me being from Cleveland, it's. Is something that's great for the. The city for sure. They haven't. They haven't had this and, you know, Dan and the rest of the team, Kobe, Altman, but they gotta. They gotta finish. It's not. It's not. It's not about just getting to the Eastern Conference finals because I felt like the Cavs probably should have gotten to the Eastern Conference finals the last two years, or at least one of the two years. They. Injury bug really hurt. Yeah, injury bug really hurt them, but they.

[Max Kellerman]

And maybe they were short one wing player. They needed a Mikhail Bridges type that they didn't. That they didn't trade five first for.

[Rich Paul]

That was to probably get someone like that in the finals.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right.

[Rich Paul]

But what. They displayed it when they played the Heat. They kind of got through that.

[Max Kellerman]

Hold on. We're going to get to all that in the show. Rich, this is what I have to ask you.

[Rich Paul]

What?

[Max Kellerman]

So Miles Turner on his pod, right? We were going to talk about this. Oh, yes. The other day we ran out. We just. It was a packed show. Miles Turner on his pod went at basically Giannis and Doc talking about how, you know, Doc just let Giannis show up whenever. And everyone was. You know, the flight was always two hours late. And it got to the point where Miles wouldn't get on the flight, you know, if they schedule it for two hours, because he didn't want to just be waiting around. And then I'm listening to a couple days ago, Frank Isola and Brian Scalabrini, their radio show, they do a good show.

[Rich Paul]

He.

[Max Kellerman]

And Scowl was saying he didn't believe it, even though Miles. It came straight from Miles Turner's mouth.

[Rich Paul]

It came straight from a player who's on the team playing all the time.

[Max Kellerman]

But his interpretation was that maybe that happened four or five times, but he couldn't see it where it was happening all the time. So the reason I'm asking you is because in your experience, how do you read this?

[Rich Paul]

What? From my. Like.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, in your experience, being around the game at the highest level and having a peek into championship teams and stuff,

[Rich Paul]

you know, I don't think. Look, I don't think, first of all, to be a player of the magnitude of a Giannis and have the business that he has. Being late consistently and being Giannis does not align to me. It just doesn't align to me. So if in the event that was actually being done, it was being done as more of a, you know, you get in that funk of maybe not wanting to be here when all that type of talk was going on. Maybe it was strategic across the board, but I still don't think that, number one, certain things you have to keep in the locker room.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

You do.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, but is that one of those things the superstar play if you're, if you're on a team. And according to my search, all the time it's hours late and Giannis isn't even saying, hey, I got to do this. Because what Scal was saying on their show was, you know, he would ask Garnett back in the day, like, hey, how much time are you going to need after the game? Cuz he's the man for sure. But so, but, but Turner made it sound like it wasn't like that. It was just Giannis would show up where.

[Rich Paul]

No, but he did say. He did say. He did say. He said to Giannis, like, I don't blame you. Like, if you can get away with it, I don't blame you. So he started showing up later knowing that the plane wasn't going to take off.

[Max Kellerman]

Do you take. Do you hear that as him going at Giannis or at Doc?

[Rich Paul]

I definitely don't think he's going at Giannis. I think if he can go back and do it. He probably wouldn't even mention Giannis, per se, because that's tough.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, pretty clear that wasn't a spontaneous thing. Okay. I don't know for sure. It seemed pretty clear that they were setting that Turner was set up on the pod to talk about.

[Rich Paul]

But maybe, you know, being the type of, the type of person. I mean, maybe he just, maybe he didn't mind saying it. I mean, if it's the truth, Miles doesn't seem like the type of person to mince words. And he also doesn't seem like the type of person to be late. He seems like a very.

[Max Kellerman]

So something's not connecting with you.

[Rich Paul]

Something is not connecting there. But, but at the end of the day, what that says is it just sums up the Milwaukee Bucks year. Put it that way. It sums up the year because, you know, to, To. I just don't see Giannis as that type of teammate. Right. Because to be sitting on the. If you're knowingly late, to be Sitting on the plane. Have your team may sitting on the Runway, right? Some of them going to their. Their home. Like, like Miles said, you could do that all you want but just don't do it on our. When we get to. On going to Dallas because I'm from Dallas and I would like to see my family and friends, you know. So I just, but I just don't. That just doesn't sit right to me. That doesn't seem like.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, Rich, what the Cavs just did to the Pistons. We got to get into this right now. Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.

[Rich Paul]

Game [e-mail] if you want to leave a voicemail, which we have some. We're going to get the voicemails and emails.

[Max Kellerman]

I want to see you do it.

[Rich Paul]

Max. Do you know the last four digits? No, we only need the last four digits. Give me the first three.

[Max Kellerman]

24-08341 by memory.

[Rich Paul]

No, I said you give me the first three. I had the last four. Sorry, this guy.

[Max Kellerman]

424-240-8341. We'll get to your email.

[Rich Paul]

Were you upset that I was doing the voicemail?

[Max Kellerman]

I just wanted to see if you really knew that.

[Rich Paul]

Of course, I.

[Max Kellerman]

You were just gonna, you know, you weren't looking at the paper. I wanted to see if you had to memorize.

[Rich Paul]

It's all Good. Game over. Spotify.com yeah. You want to start the show? You boosted a jacket. I got the tag going.

[Max Kellerman]

The five finger discount. Let me find out. You came out of. You came out of the store with like three coats on that.

[Rich Paul]

You gotta say it, man. I mean, listen.

[Max Kellerman]

Game over is brought to you by FanDuel Conference Finals are here. Thinking of how it's going to go down. Take your shot with FanDuel and get closer to the action. FanDuel is the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 and over in select states 18 and over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnecticut.

[Rich Paul]

Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You let. You didn't see the tag on my jacket.

[Max Kellerman]

I did not.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, well, come on.

[Max Kellerman]

Detached retina over here. You know it's on the other side.

[Rich Paul]

One thing for sure, you know, it's not stolen.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

It's just new.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Unless. What if you're one of these weirdos, like the rich guy who still wants to shoplift?

[Rich Paul]

Because it's like, first of all, probably my name is rich. My mom named me that.

[Max Kellerman]

But.

[Rich Paul]

But secondly, no, I just. I. I had the jacket.

[Max Kellerman]

Poor Paul. To rich Paul.

[Rich Paul]

I had the jacket. I wanted to wear it on this ground. Yeah, I was rushing, man. Trying to, you know, whatever.

[Max Kellerman]

Jacket is fresh to death, though.

[Rich Paul]

Thank you. Aod. LD does a good job.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Like a teddy.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that was a. That was an all time.

[Rich Paul]

You know what, Max?

[Max Kellerman]

I'm gonna see a lot of this in these playoffs. Like, all time ass whoopings in these playoffs.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I originally thought, I'm like, the Cavs have an opportunity to go to Eastern Conference finals. They have a game at home and they come out and lay an egg, lethargic effort. Like, this is. This is crazy to me. I'm like, what is going on? And so I thought it would be very difficult for them to come back, but, boy, was I wrong. Was I wrong because they actually were the aggressor. They looked like the tougher team tonight. They looked like the more hungry team tonight. They were clicking on all cylinders. And at some. I was watching at some point in the third quarter, it just looks like Detroit was just like, you know what? We've had enough. And I hadn't seen that by them.

[Max Kellerman]

First of all, Detroit couldn't hit a shot to save their lives.

[Rich Paul]

They couldn't.

[Max Kellerman]

So they had a bad shooting night. In an era of all the three point shooting, there's wild variance right from game to game. So if you're not hitting shots, that's a problem. But then again, don't be the type of team that misses every shot in Game 7 at home. That's the first thing. The second thing is the Cavs, who have not been a great rebounding team, even though they have those two bigs who play a lot of minutes, controlled the glass, like, on top of Detroit, not hitting shots.

[Rich Paul]

Well, they should always control the glass, but they don't.

[Max Kellerman]

On the defensive side especially, they don't. But they did tonight. And by the way, here's the headline for me, Rich, because you and I have both been. We've said on this show, Donovan Mitchell's not a number one on a championship team because of his height. Basically, right? Like, if you're an attacking, aggressive scorer and you're not, ideally, you would say 6, 5, 6, 6. You want him to be at least

[Rich Paul]

extremely Talented, but ideally you would. You would think that it's.

[Max Kellerman]

They'd want to play through Mobley because of Mitchell's. Really Mitchell's size. And Darius Garland, who's a clutch client, was traded for James Harden. I hated that trade for the Cavs at the time because I didn't think James Harden gets the over the top to win a championship. And for that, why would you trade one pick and roll specialist for another who's 10 years older? Right. So all that said at this moment, we'll see what happens. I don't think the Cavs are going to win the chip this year, but we'll see what happens. At this moment, Donovan Mitchell is playing like a real number one deep in the playoffs. Very aggressive and very effective. And if James Harden somehow gets them into the finals this year, they're kind of halfway to making that trade make sense, I think.

[Rich Paul]

Look, tonight Donovan had a good game. He wasn't. It wasn't like 40 points, but he

[Max Kellerman]

was last couple of games.

[Rich Paul]

But here's what I'm saying. It wasn't a lot of points, but it was one of the better games I've seen him play tonight.

[Max Kellerman]

It really was super aggressive from the jump.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But also no turnovers, assists, active on defense, getting his hand in there and getting steals. Like, he played a very holistic game tonight, which led to a win. And it just goes to show you, you don't have to have 40 to impact the game in that way. But I also thought tonight, Mobley Allen, those guys came to play tonight.

[Max Kellerman]

They did. And when. When those guys are. And so let's talk about the matchup with the Knicks now, because they just. They demoed the Pistons. I mean, like. Well, also in a Game 7 to win. When you win by. What was the Finals, what'd they win by? 30 something.

[Rich Paul]

But Max, they basically said somebody else has to beat us.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

And we don't believe it. Cade would not beat us. Somebody else has to beat us.

[Max Kellerman]

You said Detroit is a player and a half away at the trade deadline.

[Rich Paul]

Two players.

[Max Kellerman]

There are two players. And one of those players has to be pretty. Pretty good.

[Rich Paul]

Two players. They're two players. But it's just tough, man, because they had the best record all year. I know it's tough.

[Max Kellerman]

And they matched up with the Knicks well in the regular season, but the

[Rich Paul]

Cavs actually has the better roster to match.

[Max Kellerman]

More talent.

[Rich Paul]

They got more talent.

[Max Kellerman]

No, but here's the. Okay, so let's talk about the Knicks Cavs matchup. Your hometown and my hometown.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. The.

[Max Kellerman]

Here's why it's going to be a great series. I think they're pretty evenly matched, but I think the Knicks should win for a couple for several reasons. Number one, for the Pistons to have a problem on the defensive glass with Allen and Mobley playing the number of minutes they do not like. The Pistons always have either Allen or Mobley all 48 minutes. One or the other's in the game. And usually they're both in the game. Right? So for them to have a problem on the offensive glass, it's not simply like, well, they get pulled out to the perimeter because they're defending in space. All bigs defend in space in the modern game. That's true for Cat and Mitch, too, right. On the Knicks side. So, like, there's something that they're not. You tell me what's going on with the bigs. Why aren't. Why are they having a problem on the glass?

[Rich Paul]

Which bigs? Cavs or the Cavs?

[Max Kellerman]

On the defensive board, yes. They're not good.

[Rich Paul]

That's just. That's just being dialed in to want to do that.

[Max Kellerman]

Just an issue of desire, right?

[Rich Paul]

That's just desire. But I think they will. I think they were better tonight.

[Max Kellerman]

They were, yeah. But when you have one team whose bigs have an issue on the defensive glass, and the other team, the Knicks, are dominant on the offensive glass, right? That's the same glass. Their defense is there, right? So that's a bad situation for the Cavs unless they get that turned around. And then the other thing is. Same thing like last year. The.

[Rich Paul]

I've.

[Max Kellerman]

I have derided the. That means I didn't like it, kids. By the way, I've derided the trade for Mikhail Bridges. Not because I don't think Bridges is good. I always said I think he's a good player and he's especially a good playoff performer, which I value. But they gave up five firsts for him. Nevertheless, that's who really, the Cavs could use. The Cavs last year, the year before, they don't have that perimeter player who can defend at an elite level and also hit shots, right. And think the game they're missing that that's what. And the Knicks have that. The Cavs don't.

[Rich Paul]

The thing I like about the Knicks is they don't have many specialists, right? They don't have many specialists.

[Max Kellerman]

They have players.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, they have players. The Cavs with their big situation. The Cavs have two really skilled bigs. Jared Allen's a really skilled big. I know he don't Shoot threes, but you see him make some shots around the basket. He has great touch for big. And Mobley's. We know what Mobley is.

[Max Kellerman]

He has every skill gets overlooked because of Mobley. But Allen's excellent.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I think people overlook Allen because he doesn't come with this rah rah type of mentality, but he's a very, very, very good player. When you look at Dean Wade, Merle Struse, right, those three guys. Dean Wade's a big body. He should be able to guard Merle Strus, Stru, same thing. He's not just a specialist. He can shoot the ball, but he's also a good scrappy defender. Gets 50, 50 balls, Merle makes shots.

[Max Kellerman]

But who's going to be on Brunson?

[Rich Paul]

I think you start out with Struse on Brunson. I think you do.

[Max Kellerman]

See, remember I said Jaden McDaniels is the key matchup in the Nugget series for the T Wolves because.

[Rich Paul]

But Brunson can't beat you by a shot.

[Max Kellerman]

Jamal Murray is like a clutch playoff performer. He always elevates. But when you put a 6 foot 8 guy with a long wingspan who can defend the perimeter and stay with the guy on ball, that's like as good as you can do. That's. They need some. They need a. They need a Jaden McDaniels type on Brunson or at least a Mikhail Bridges type that they don't have it on the roster.

[Rich Paul]

But Max, it don't. You're not stopping Jalen Brunson.

[Max Kellerman]

No, but you gotta make it affect him at least, right?

[Rich Paul]

He's got to make it tough on him.

[Max Kellerman]

You think Strus is going to affect Brunson?

[Rich Paul]

He can make it tough. Then you put guys like Dean Wade, Donovan's going to have to guard.

[Max Kellerman]

I think Brunson's about to put on a show.

[Rich Paul]

Great, great. Let him score 50. It's the other guys that can't beat you if you're the Cavs, if Bruns. Here's the difference. The difference between the Knicks this year versus last year is Jalen's getting off the ball quicker. Right? Where last year it was easier to guard this year because Mike Brown came from that Golden State. He brought it to sack when he was there. He's brought it to the Knicks. He's getting off the ball. So other guys are getting involved in. And Jalen's still getting heads within the floor of the offense. And then as you know, the shot clock running down, he can get you A bucket. That's fine. My thing is the other guys. Demitril Robinson with four or five offensive rebounds and kick outs to threes, the McBrides, the Landry Shammons can't come in if you. The Cavs, the Landry Shammons can't come in or the Clarksons and run off six straight. Those are the things that really hurt

[Max Kellerman]

the tough things about the Knicks. If Mitch is not in the game, if the five is Brunson and Hart and Bridges and OG and Cat. When they have that lineup, if Josh Hart is hitting his shots, they're almost impossible to beat. Like when Josh Hart is hitting his shots, they can match up with the Thunder or the. Now the Thunder would be favored against them if the Knicks and the Thunder came out because the Thunder was are team like they play team ball like the Knicks, but they're bigger and deeper.

[Rich Paul]

Max, there's one word. There's one word.

[Max Kellerman]

But when, when Josh Hart is hitting shots in that. That's a death. That's a death lineup.

[Rich Paul]

Max, there's one word that's going to decide this series.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Toughness.

[Max Kellerman]

Cavs. Knicks.

[Rich Paul]

That's it.

[Max Kellerman]

Agreed.

[Rich Paul]

That's it. You could talk shots, you could talk pick and roll, you could talk. If the Knicks have a tougher mentality in the Cavs, they're going to win

[Max Kellerman]

the series and they have so far this year.

[Rich Paul]

They always have. Yes, that's just the difference.

[Max Kellerman]

But yeah, I think no matchup for Brunson. Problem with the bigs on the defensive glass versus the offensive glass, efficiency for the Knicks. They should win in. I'm going to say Nixon 6. What's your. Would you have a prediction?

[Rich Paul]

I don't really have a prediction though. I don't. I don't. I think. I think I would say if. Are you telling me to. I need to have a prediction?

[Max Kellerman]

You know, I'm not telling you. You need to. I'm suggesting.

[Rich Paul]

I would say this. If the Cavs were to win to series, it will be in seven games.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

If the series goes six, the Knicks will win.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

So basically we agree the odds makers have the Knicks a little better than 2 to 1. I think that's a little wide. I think it's more like 8, 5. But. But it's. That's. We. We both think the Knicks have the advantage, but it's not a huge advantage.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Now to the Western Conference. Rich Spurs, Thunder. This is Clash of the Titans right here.

[Rich Paul]

This is, this is. This reminds me of. What's that movie with Wyatt Earp and Tombstone. This is Tombstone, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

This is King Kong versus Godzilla.

[Rich Paul]

This is. This. This. This really reminds me of Tombstone.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Thunder shoot it a little better. Thunder are a little deeper.

[Rich Paul]

I'm picking the Spurs.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm also picking the Spurs. You can't pick the Spurs. I picked the spurs starting in the middle of the season.

[Rich Paul]

No, but I picked the spurs right now.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but I picked that. So mine predate. Do you know the middle of the season is before right now?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but there's two different seasons. You picked the spurs in the regular season.

[Max Kellerman]

In the regular season. I picked the spurs to win the championship.

[Rich Paul]

No, Max, you. You got to pick okc. You cannot pick the Spurs. You can't. Listen, I picked the spurs first.

[Max Kellerman]

Here's the thing. When teams are essentially evenly matched, give me the team with the best player. Wemby, as I've also been saying since the middle of the season, is the best player in basketball.

[Rich Paul]

Shay's the mvp, though.

[Max Kellerman]

We can get to that in a second. Who's better, Wemby or Shea?

[Rich Paul]

Shay's the mvp.

[Max Kellerman]

Who's better, Wemby or Shay?

[Rich Paul]

I mean, if you ask me to start my team, I'm taking the ball.

[Max Kellerman]

One dude is eight feet tall. Six and a half feet to seven and a half feet.

[Rich Paul]

If you asking me who I want to start a team with Wemby, but I'm sitting here.

[Max Kellerman]

Who do you want to win a series with?

[Rich Paul]

I want to win a series with the best team.

[Max Kellerman]

Who's the best player in the series?

[Rich Paul]

The most impactful player is Wemby.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

That's another way. This is Pernell Whitaker. They used to say, like, well, he has the most awkward style. I'm like, oh, you mean he beats the most guys? He's the hardest one to beat. You know what a synonym for hardest guy to beat is? The best guy. That's the hardest guy to beat the best. You know, people like to, you know, play semantics, but.

[Rich Paul]

Well, listen, Wemby. We know what Wemby is.

[Max Kellerman]

Actually, we don't know what Wemby is. We've never seen anything like the guy from. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, so you got the Thunder. Here's what's interesting to me. If I were picking the Thunder, which I'm not, but if I were. What's interesting to me is last year, you and I were talking Thunder, like, in the middle of last season, just, you know, in our personal lives. And I was saying the thing about the Thunder is. Cause they were getting ready to get Chet back Is they were already pretty dominant and they're about to get a poor man's wemby on the team. Like that's going to be hard to beat.

[Rich Paul]

Now.

[Max Kellerman]

They had 20 games or so of Runway into the playoffs and it's different than this. But as good as the Thunder have looked, they've been playing without their third best player, basically, and they're getting their

[Rich Paul]

third best player back in the playoffs. Last year he was.

[Max Kellerman]

He was the second best player. Yes. But they're. Now it's a little different because if it takes a game or two to adjust, that's bad news for the Thunder.

[Rich Paul]

The Western Conference finals is different. It's not like the first round of playoffs. You're coming back into that frying pan against ball pressuring.

[Max Kellerman]

Castle is a lot.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, all of them.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but yeah, defensively, Castle is a lot. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, look, Castle, Fox, Harper, Johnson, Vassell, all of those guys, they're serious.

[Max Kellerman]

If the Thunder win, it's because of why.

[Rich Paul]

Shooting probably the key word for this series,

[Max Kellerman]

because everyone assumes Harper and Castle will wind up to be pretty good shooters. But they're so young, they ain't there yet.

[Rich Paul]

Castle had the 32. How many threes does he have? I don't remember. At least three or four.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So if Castle's making his three, right. And it's the type of three, right. If he's walking into a three, okay, you would take that. But if he's on a swing, swing on a catch and shoot and he make his threes, you're in trouble, in trouble and stays out of foul trouble because he's been in foul trouble a little bit. He got to stay out of foul trouble.

[Max Kellerman]

Like SGA and Chet and Williams. If Williams, let's say. Let's say it's best case scenario for the Thunder. Takes a game or so for Williams to get in the swing of things. They steal that game and then they have. They have their big three back. If that. I mean, that's. I think that's optimistic for them.

[Rich Paul]

But going into any series, I like

[Max Kellerman]

the peak of the big three on San Antonio. Even now. Even now, if they're all hitting on all cylinders, I like San Antonio's three better.

[Rich Paul]

What three? Who's the big three? What three you choose?

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I'm saying the two. The young guys.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, the young guys.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Now your guy Fox is for the end of the game. Fox will close out the game.

[Rich Paul]

Well, he has to. Well, here's the thing. He has to set the tone and Close and close.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. And then just be smart in between.

[Rich Paul]

Which he is.

[Max Kellerman]

But Castle and Harper, like, it's. Maybe it's. If the spurs lose, it's because it's just a beat too soon for them. But if they do like, what Edgecomb did and like, if they have like a series where it's like, oh, whoa, they're consistently doing that, you can't beat them.

[Rich Paul]

You can't have. Against the Thunder, you can't have live ball turnovers.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

That's. That. That is key. And you have to make sure that, yeah, Shay's gonna do his thing. You're not. You're not stopping Shay. But everyone else, you know, Jerick McCain can't come in and have 21.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Like, you just.

[Max Kellerman]

Which could easily happen.

[Rich Paul]

It could. The way he shoots the ball. But you, like, you have to stop those things. Like A.J. mitchell. In this. In this series, it's going to be.

[Max Kellerman]

They got a lot of guys on both benches. Forget about teams on both benches who, who could drop 20 something on a given night?

[Rich Paul]

On both benches. Yes. You know what that's called, Max? That'd be another one. How'd you know I was gonna say that? You're a genius. You are a genius, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

SGA wins the MVP again.

[Rich Paul]

And my guy Shams announced it.

[Max Kellerman]

You can.

[Rich Paul]

Are you upset about that, Max?

[Max Kellerman]

No. I mean, you can give him regular. Who cares about regular season. MVP is. No, no.

[Rich Paul]

Are you upset about Shams announcing the mvp? Because, you know, everyone else is. Why are they.

[Max Kellerman]

Why are they upset?

[Rich Paul]

Well, it was supposed to be announced on Amazon, right? And so they took a shot at Shams. But listen, let me tell you.

[Max Kellerman]

Wait, hold on, hold on. Amazon is mad at Shams because he got the info and didn't. Even though he's not contractually obligated to honor whatever agreement they have, he needs to honor their deal.

[Rich Paul]

I'm telling you, they talked. It wasn't Amazon that got mad. It was the show. The. The show. The NBA show. They told Shams to back off. But there is no when you. I'm gonna tell you something about Shams. There is no backing off, right? If. If. If half the world worked as hard as Shams, the world would be a better place. Just half the world would make too much.

[Max Kellerman]

Too much would make the world too much work. Everyone can't work like Shams. It'd be ridiculous.

[Rich Paul]

Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Everyone. Could you imagine a world where everyone worked like that? It's too much.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know how this guy does it. Yeah, I just don't know.

[Max Kellerman]

Did the kids call? All gas, no breaks.

[Rich Paul]

The thing about him though is he's not doing something for shits and giggles.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

He wants to be right. And it's going to be fact checked. If he says it, it's real, it's not a game.

[Max Kellerman]

You think he's one of these guys? You're kind of like this. Marcellus Wiley's definitely like this. I know some other people in the industry, Bob Papa is like this. Some people really can get by on like four, four and a half hours sleep a night.

[Rich Paul]

He definitely can.

[Max Kellerman]

And they don't ever really need to make it up. They could just, they just do it and their body doesn't need more.

[Rich Paul]

No, he definitely can't.

[Max Kellerman]

If I get four hours sleep two nights in a row, I'm a zombie.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I mean, well guess what? I got three hours of sleep last night and got up and went and played Pelican Hill today with Zach Levine. Was nice.

[Max Kellerman]

What do you average sleep? If you took the average of all seven days, maybe you caught up one day. How many hours you getting a night on average?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, four.

[Max Kellerman]

See that's what I mean, you are one of those guys to me. If I'm not averaging six, I'm in trouble.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, because you know the way my. I may call you with something, you

[Max Kellerman]

know, I'll call you middle of the night.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah, call you. May send you a text at 3:30 in the morning. It just depends on. My brain just is fried.

[Max Kellerman]

But when you get up on three, four hours sleep, you're okay, you can just kind of.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, I'm rolling. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

It's a gift, it's a gift. People like that get to live more life, you know. I don't use alarm clock, you just wake yourself up. I can go explains where you get here when you do. Sometimes, but go ahead.

[Rich Paul]

That's not true. Okay, I can go to sleep at 3 o' clock and we have to get up at 5 and I can get right up. I've been doing this since I was a kid. I didn't have alarm clock for going to school, ever.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I gotta because alarm.

[Rich Paul]

I'm gonna tell you why. Because my grandmother, Johnny May, she would go to bed at 5:30 in the after. I mean, right?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, old people go to sleep, it's like, come on.

[Rich Paul]

Well, she half sleep, she gotta, she got up, she only ate peanut M M's so I would bring her a pack of peanut Ms. You mean she

[Max Kellerman]

only ate, you mean of the M? M's or. That's the only thing she.

[Rich Paul]

My grandma Johnny Mae and my grandma Campbell. My grandma Campbell ate. She. Wrigley's gum.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay?

[Rich Paul]

Everything but the Big Red. Because that cinnamon would burn her gum. So she had her teeth. She had no teeth, so she. No, no, no. Seriously. Bringing a Big Red. No. Yeah. You want to laugh at my grandmother? That's cold. That's cold blood. You can't laugh at my grandmother.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I'm sorry.

[Rich Paul]

She need a burner? No, I'm just. So. I never only brought her Juicy Fruit or Double Mint or spearmint. And she didn't really like the winter fresh when that came late. But so I couldn't bring her to Big Red.

[Max Kellerman]

She was all she needed. If you gave her Big Red, she had to have the winter fresh right there.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, she couldn't do the Big Red. That was like hot sauce for her. Tabasco sauce in the gum. But my grand. My grandma. My grandma Johnny May, though, she only ate peanut M and M. So I would bring her peanut M and M. That's the.

[Max Kellerman]

What do you mean when you say she only ate peanut but her diet consisted of it? Or in the M M family, she only messed with the peanut M&M's in the.

[Rich Paul]

All candy.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay?

[Rich Paul]

Only peanut. So when I would leave from my dad's store every night, I would go home to my grandmother. When I come in, I would always bring her one bag of peanut M and M's. And so every birthday, you know what? She. Every single birthday, you know what? I got a three layer German chocolate cake. The same cake every single birthday. So what I'm saying to you is. And my uncle Charlie. My Uncle Charlie. So I grew up in a household. My Grandma Campbell, who was my grandmother's mother, and my uncle Charlie's mother, and my grandmother and my Uncle Charlie are brother and sister. The average age in the house is 65.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm 10, so I got soul.

[Rich Paul]

I gotta watch Larry King Live, Meet the Press, all these things. Murder she Wrote, Colombo before I can. I didn't have a TV in my room, so I had to watch whatever my grandmother wanted to watch.

[Max Kellerman]

Guiding Light, she had.

[Rich Paul]

I wasn't at home then. My. My dad would watch that during the night. Oh, my bubba.

[Max Kellerman]

Guiding Light would have. She'd have her soap operas.

[Rich Paul]

But the thing though, Max, is. And we'll get back to the. To the games. The thing is, I would peek and see if my grandmother was asleep. And once she turned to sleep, I would either turn to like BET or wg. And if his game is on. But anyway, because of the regimen, every day she would get up at 3:30 in the morning, bathe her mom, my Grandma Campbell, get her breakfast. Then she would get my Uncle Charlie's breakfast. Then I would get up. It was the first time I see my grandmother. She would wash every day and she would iron my underclothes. T shirt, drawers and socks. She would iron them and it was just a regimen.

[Max Kellerman]

Nice. Put them on nice and toasty.

[Rich Paul]

So when I cut. When I would cut the bushes, she would write me a $5 check instead of giving me a $5 bill, which I'd rather have a cash. I might not make it to the. I got to go past the dice game to get to my dad's store. So I might not even make it there with the $5.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

But I would have to go to my dad and cash that check and then go out. But anyway, because of the regiment is why I didn't have an alarm clock. I would just. It was just natural. But my Uncle Charlie, he would love this. My Uncle Charlie would leave on a Tuesday. Tuesday. And go see his girlfriend one day out the week. He only saw his girlfriend one day out the week. No, seriously, one day out the week. Clean shave, hat, white shirt, jeans, no sneakers, shoe. And he had a Carolina blue Ford Tempo. You could eat off this thing, it was so clean. My grandmother would give him the grocery list when he leaves to go see his woman when he comes back. He. He had the groceries with him. My grandmother never. She. She hasn't driven a car since 1952. Like, seriously. So that's how I grew up, you know, in that particular household.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And I would be, you know, so I just didn't. Don't need alarm clock. Certain things, like the regiment.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't have any good stories like that. And I need an alarm clock.

[Rich Paul]

You know what?

[Max Kellerman]

I don't have an alarm clock.

[Rich Paul]

I'm going to hell for laughing at my grandmother.

[Max Kellerman]

I've been trying not to laugh since then. Every time you say grandma, I don't know which one you're talking about, but

[Rich Paul]

my grandma Campbell, man, you're lucky she no longer laugh.

[Max Kellerman]

The image. The image of that one flavor burning her gum.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you know, I don't.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but.

[Rich Paul]

No, that's a real. That's a real thing, huh? Yeah, that's my great grandmother. My grandma camel. My great grandma.

[Max Kellerman]

Game over is brought to you by fanduel. And fanduel is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs long. With more ways to build and more value every time you play. You can stack your picks your way for every game, every matchup and every moment. From spreads to player points to threes and more. Build it all into one same game parlay and go for bigger payouts. So if you're betting same game parlays this NBA postseason, bet them on FanDuel. More options, better payouts all NBA playoffs long. Head to FanDuel.com gameover to get started. FanDuel official partner of the NBA play your game 21 and over select states 18 and over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem call 1-800- gambler, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat Connecticut did you know?

[Rich Paul]

About 1 in 3 people with plaque psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness and swelling. Does this sound like you? Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. Trymphyia Guselcomab, taken by injection is a prescription medicine for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis who may benefit from taking injections or pills or phototherapy. And for adults with active psoriatic arthritis, serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu like symptoms or if you need a vaccine. Imagine being a million miles miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimfire. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimfire, including important safety information.

[Max Kellerman]

Back to basketball. Yes, you feel like yeah, this is crazy. I was once in a social studies class in high school and my best friend told me a story about actually his grandmother who told him a story about Shout Out Felix who told him a story about she got kicked in the teeth by a mule as a kid. I don't believe this, but the hoof got caught in her mouth and he told me that in the middle of class.

[Rich Paul]

This is a lie.

[Max Kellerman]

I swear to God he told me this in the middle of class. I laughed for about two weeks straight. I couldn't stop laughing for about two straight.

[Rich Paul]

The Big Red is serious. That's a lie.

[Max Kellerman]

But that Big Red thing is kind of. It's tickling me like still.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just saying.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm trying not to think about it.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, what's your five minute max?

[Max Kellerman]

First of all, do you feel like that SGA just won the MVP. And now it's a wrap for MVPs. Like, if Wemby stays healthy, it's. It's his.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, he won it.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, no, I'm saying, like saying going forward now, if Wemby stays healthy, he's going to like, Wemby has. Wemby has a chance to be the greatest player of all time.

[Rich Paul]

I think it's teetering that way. Yeah, but you never know. I don't know. I'm not going to disrespect the rest of the league in that manner. I think, you know, you got to.

[Max Kellerman]

You don't have to. Wemby will.

[Rich Paul]

Wimby has to win it. Then I would do it. No question.

[Max Kellerman]

No question. Okay, so here's five minute max. SGA gets the mvp. And he is an efficiency machine. You know, he's like, you know, 40, 50, 90, whatever. 30 points a game. Like a metronome. Never scoring under 20 points. Just him and Wilt for the number of consecutive games. All those things. And he's rich. He's a champion and a finals mvp. And he might happen again already. But I don't get the feeling that I'm looking at a guy who one day is going to be in the goat conversation. So who comes to mind to me is Kobe. Now, the other day I.

[Rich Paul]

Isn't Kobe in the goat conversation?

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, people put him in a goat conversation. He's in the top 10, wherever you want to put him. Some people underrate him a little, some people overrate him a little. But no, I don't think anyone argues. Serious. I don't think you can construct an argument that Kobe is the goat. He's too similar to MJ and the comparison's too easy. And he's. And MJ's a little bit better. Did a little bit. Right. But. But the reason Kobe comes to mind is this. I made the argument the other day that Shohei Ohtani is not the greatest player ever because people confuse something that is very hard to do with having the most value. CC Sabathia went at me on my. In my comments I saw on Instagram get him cece. He said they shouldn't talk about baseball on this show.

[Rich Paul]

He said they. Because CeCe is my friend. He said you shouldn't talk about baseball list.

[Max Kellerman]

If cece Sabathia wants to talk about how to grip. How to grip a ball to throw a curveball, he's one of. I love cece. He's. He's a worry. Like he pitched in his free agent year in Milwaukee, with all that money on the line, took the ball on three days rest. To hell with the contract. I'm going to help them win, then sign the big deal with the Yankees. Delivers them the World Series. Love, cece. I would never, if he was trying to explain how to throw a curveball, contradict him

[Rich Paul]

when.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm talking about doing comparative analysis though. But Max, that's kind of like the way CeCe could throw a pitch. It's kind of what I do, Max. So. So when cece comes at me, it's not a great idea.

[Rich Paul]

Are you telling me that you're challenging a World Series hall of Fame baseball player at a baseball question? Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Because it involves thinking. When it involves thinking, I'm C.C. sebastian. You see what I mean? I'm a Hall of Famer. So now let me explain something. Let me explain something.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

People conflate things that are hard to do with value. So for example, in the case of Shohei, as the greatest player of all time, what he is doing is harder than anything anyone's ever done. But it doesn't give him the most values as a player. For example, if there was a one legged NBA player and he averaged 15 points a game. Just imagine if a guy only had one leg. He didn't even have a prosthetic leg. He just had to hop around on one leg. And he was. And he averaged 15 points a game in the NBA. We would all say. We would all. We'd say that's the hardest thing anyone ever did. But he wouldn't be the best player of all time.

[Rich Paul]

Oh yes he would. My book.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich, there's a difference between difficulty.

[Rich Paul]

No, I understand what you're saying, but.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, so.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

So in one case. So I understand.

[Rich Paul]

But.

[Max Kellerman]

But in with Shay and Kobe, it goes the other way. Shay is more efficient than Kobe ever was. He. There will be an argument by the analytics types if he, if Shea continues this, that he's a greater player than Kobe was, for example. But people who lived through both errors will know that's not true. You know what Shay is, is a modern player who to his credit has gamed the system very well. He's using the rules to his advantage, as he should. He's a champion and he's now a two time mvp. That's not what Kobe did though. Kobe just played ball at the highest possible level. He wasn't looking for. He wasn't looking to get anything. It wasn't kind of a parlor trick in terms of he has this one thing he can do that can get him to the line and he's. People who live through both errors will know you cannot compare the one to the other.

[Rich Paul]

But isn't that just the way the game is played today? Yeah. Yeah. So I don't. Yeah, I don't think it's.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't think it's like you saw both guys play. Who's a greater player at their best?

[Rich Paul]

Kobe.

[Max Kellerman]

Do you like. If you think about Kobe at his best, think about Shay right now. The numbers will wind up saying that Shea is, is greater.

[Rich Paul]

But I'm also not, I'm not comparing.

[Max Kellerman]

Would you really believe me?

[Rich Paul]

I'm not comparing Shay to Kobe. I think Shay is a. First of all, I think Shay is a, is a great player for his time. The thing I don't like is we always have to take this guy's moment. Shay is having his moment. Let Shay have his moment. Shay, Shay, by the way, when he came in, he was a 12th pick in the draft. When he went to Kentucky, hell, he wasn't even starting to begin with. I mean, so now he gets traded. Everyone's thinking like, oh, it was a great trade for the Clippers. Meanwhile he gets the last laugh because he's a champion.

[Max Kellerman]

Worst trade of all time, maybe in any sport.

[Rich Paul]

And a back to back mvp. I'm not about to take Shay's moment, which is what we do on all these shows, which I don't agree with.

[Max Kellerman]

And turning Harrison is the thief of joy.

[Rich Paul]

I told you that. Now you're going to take what I.

[Max Kellerman]

I am quoting you to you. I'm summarizing what you're saying. I am saying that's what you say. Comparison is the thief of joy.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, they are. So what I'm saying is Shay just won an MVP again. Yeah, back to back.

[Max Kellerman]

But it makes me think when you, when you're a back to back mvp, you start to look at the quality of the guy's prime compared to all time greats.

[Rich Paul]

Right?

[Max Kellerman]

And I'm saying that the quality of Shay's prime so far is much more similar to me to like Steve Nash's prime than it is to Kobe Bryant.

[Rich Paul]

But can you at least wait to the guy?

[Max Kellerman]

No, I can't wait even a single day. I. Well, I think my little sports nerd nerd brain is thinking, going a mile a minute as soon as he gets the mvp, you know, because I see people, like people talk about just wait

[Rich Paul]

till the man at least have 10 years of service.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, you can compare the quality of the prime. You could see, you could See, for example, if Shay wins the title this year, that's two titles and two MVPs.

[Rich Paul]

You have to put. If he does this. Yeah, okay, I got something for you. If Shay wins the title again this year, he's won back to back MVPs and back to back titles. Where does that put him?

[Max Kellerman]

That's what I'm saying. I'm starting to compare him to other six.

[Rich Paul]

Six type guards, six anything.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but I'm saying to that similar sized guards who, you know, high usage rate guard, he's more of a one and Kobe was more of a two. But like high usage rate guards whose quality of their prime was extremely high and were MVPs and champions even when Kobe was second fiddle to Shaq on those in that first three peat. That Kobe Bryant we all remember, it was a different animal than this guy.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, but right here's.

[Max Kellerman]

So who does Shay?

[Rich Paul]

Who.

[Max Kellerman]

So just because me and you and

[Rich Paul]

everyone who watched them both, here's the thing. People want these players to be who they want them to be. They want them to act a certain way because someone else did it. They want them to stay in a. At a team forever because someone you. You look for every excuse outside of just saying, hey, Shay SGA is a hell of a player.

[Max Kellerman]

But you just said so. Where does he rank if he does it again? That's what I'm saying.

[Rich Paul]

I know where he ranks.

[Max Kellerman]

Where?

[Rich Paul]

Amongst the best of the best.

[Max Kellerman]

Really? In the. In the innermost sanctum. Highest level.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, because. Because here's the thing. He's been. You could talk about.

[Max Kellerman]

If you want to talk about as a point guard, I'm talking about as a basketball player.

[Rich Paul]

He. When you are the focal point of a team and night in and night out, you are the focal point, focal point of the scouting report. And through all of that you still have the production that Shea has and the accolades that Shea has. And you get to the mountaintop and win it. Most people are satisfied just winning one time to. To get. If he gets back there and win it again. Come on, man.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, so this is, this is. I see where the disconnect is right now. Because you said, you know, because as you say, comparison is a thief of joke. But that's what we do in sports. It's all about establishing a hierarchical.

[Rich Paul]

But I'm for the players.

[Max Kellerman]

Hierarchical thinking animates sports. You know, interest and debates and games. Who is the best and how do they compare to each other? Right. So when you say so here's the disconnect on the one Hand. If the question is, is Shea an all time great? If they win a championship course again this year, the answer is obviously yes, he's an all time great. If he's back to back MVP and back to back finals mvp, he's an all time great. So we agree about that. The thing is, when you enter the

[Rich Paul]

room, I'm not putting him there though. I'm not even trying to put.

[Max Kellerman]

But an all time great means you have entered the conversation. I don't mean as the goat, but you have entered the where does he rank? All time conversation. You brought it up earlier. When you do that as a result of your own greatness, of your own excellence, we then have to start making or we don't have to. But it's fun to start making comparisons. Right?

[Rich Paul]

But when you try to put him up against that, I just don't think.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, I'll give you another one. Because the person I'm about to say had a greater effect on the game and had the regular season on Smash and won championships, but it took a while for him to be the best player on a championship team. Shea versus Steph, primary ball handler, championship team, multiple time mvp. Right. That to me is an interesting comparison. Shay versus Steph because Shea's a much better defender. Not that Steph doesn't defend, but he's bigger and so he's, he's, he's more effective at it. Um, he was the best player on either team when it mattered most last year. It took Steph until 2022 for that to happen. So to me, the level of greatness we're talking about, and this is why I don't have Steph as high as some people. I think guys like or the reason Kobe came to mind is because that's the first time you hit the upper level. The inner sanctum of non bigs in history is Kobe. Right. I think that's give, Give me the guards. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

That we looked at as all time greats that Shay now surpasses. If. Well, he's already surpassed some of them because some of them never won.

[Max Kellerman]

But the ones who won.

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, Isaiah. Did Isaiah Thomas ever get league mvp? I don't think so.

[Rich Paul]

I don't think so.

[Max Kellerman]

He was in the conversation a bunch of years, but he should have. AI never won the championship. Yeah, but Shea is a much more efficient player. Not as talented to the eye. The eye test says AI is better, but Shay is extreme. Now Shay has the advantage of being in a system and having teammates that allow him to do that thing. But he still gets credit for doing it.

[Rich Paul]

Absolutely. Who else? I mean. Yeah, that's. No one's arguing that.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, I put him. Would you put him over already? CP3?

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Gary Payton.

[Rich Paul]

I think you have to.

[Max Kellerman]

Gary Payton was never league mvp, let alone two time, let alone finals mvp. And Peyton was all time great.

[Rich Paul]

All these errors are different. All these players are different.

[Max Kellerman]

But that's why you compare what they did in their era and then could see what the other guy did in his era.

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

Shay is doing a lot.

[Rich Paul]

Shay is. So you just made my point.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm just saying there's levels.

[Rich Paul]

There is levels. So when you talked about that level of. It was a few shows back we said. And you said like you was talking about Jokic, had he entered that area.

[Max Kellerman]

You mean players who have been the best player in the game for at least a year? I don't think Shea's ever been the best player in the game. Best player in the, like even last year when he won MVP and finals mvp. I don't think he was the best player in the game last year. I think Jokic was the best player in the game last year. I think Wemby's the best player in the game this year. I don't think Steph was the best player in the game till 2022 because he, he was content where he's with LeBron.

[Rich Paul]

So you saying that you could be the best player in the game. Yeah, obviously. And not win.

[Max Kellerman]

Possible.

[Rich Paul]

Because you have a guy that is probably not the best player, but is very close to being the best player.

[Max Kellerman]

And on an incredible team.

[Rich Paul]

And on a better team.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, on an incredible team. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Like when. Look, who was the best player? When Steph and KD linked up with Clay and Dre and they went back to back.

[Rich Paul]

Who was the best player?

[Max Kellerman]

LeBron was like. If you had eyes, you could see LeBron was the best player in the game.

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

All right. Anyway, that kind of was all over the place.

[Rich Paul]

That was more than five. It's like a 15 minute.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, it turned into. It was only a two minute max.

[Rich Paul]

And then it turned into not true.

[Max Kellerman]

It was 13 minute rich max.

[Rich Paul]

When I asked you the question.

[Max Kellerman]

Because you try to get rich quick.

[Rich Paul]

That wasn't a. I don't know what that was. That was a layaway.

[Max Kellerman]

Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck and the person who drives it, well, that's a Chevy person. You probably no one, your buddy, your sister. Ones who always show up, they're the first to rise, the last to leave. They Always have that little extra something and maybe you've got it too. Chevrolet together, let's drive. Visit chevy.com trucks to explore the lineup.

[Rich Paul]

This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods Market. Peach apricot rose Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango Yuzu Chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 Strawberry Pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market.

[Max Kellerman]

You want to do emails?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but. Yeah, let's do some emails.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Let me. Let me read this. I don't know, Rich, before you roll your eyes. I don't roll my eyes. Hear me out. I have a gut feeling that heat complete the Giannis trade. Oh, my God. You don't have to register after that trade. They still have the full Le mle to spend. That's where LeBron comes in and teamed up with Giannis. Bam. Norman Power in Miami. That team would run the east to make up for the lost money. I'll tell Pat Riley that cookies are allowed on the team playing. What do you think? I think nothing I don't know about

[Max Kellerman]

LeBron in Miami, Giannis in Miami. Like, that's kind of the type of guy that Pat Riley sets his sights on. Right? You couldn't see Giannis in Miami.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, if you can. I can see Giannis anywhere. If you can get him. I mean, it's Giannis.

[Max Kellerman]

But. But the fact that it's a pass. Pat Riley franchise.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah. Pat, me, Pat, Giannis and Bam have the same agent.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

So that would make a lot of sense. Now, does Giants and Bam coincide? Can they play together? Those are all.

[Max Kellerman]

Give up one for the other.

[Rich Paul]

Those are all the things you have to.

[Max Kellerman]

You're not giving up. No, Bam out of.

[Rich Paul]

No. Bam would be a lifer. But you have all the. All those things you have to try to figure out. But first of all, the cookies thing was taken out of proportion. I actually talked to Pat about that. Okay. About the cookies thing. That was taken all the way out of proportion. And then.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, explain everyone what the cookies thing is and then how is it out of proportion?

[Rich Paul]

Well, they were saying that part of the reason why LeBron left Miami was because the cookies on the plane was not allowed And I actually got the real story behind that. And it wasn't even about LeBron at all. It wasn't about him at all. It was about someone else who's body fat. And it was more so about, well, I don't have. No, my body fat is low.

[Max Kellerman]

So I know they Weren't talking about LeBron's body fat in Miami.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, but that's what I'm saying. But. But this. I think D. Wade told the story, and obviously he was there, but he just told a story about the cookies being off the plane that led to it be to LeBron being upset about the cookies being off the plane. So then you got that type of thing, and people run with it. And then you go on these shows and it's like, well, you know, it was cookies here, it's a ball here. I'm like, what? No one's fact checking any of these things. They're just running off saying things. But anyway, that's neither here nor there. But I got the real story about the cookies. You know, I can listen to Pat talk for two hours with his stories, which was good, but I'll read another one because I didn't like that email. It was nothing there. Hey, guys. That's pretty good.

[Max Kellerman]

Giannis in Miami.

[Rich Paul]

Hope you're doing good. Love the pod. Show. Show. Show. Not pot. Thank you for calling this show, because it's not a pod. Hey, what happened here? What's going on? I would love to get. Oh, this is Thiago, currently in Shenzhen, China. Oh, Max. Yeah, we're in China, by the way.

[Max Kellerman]

It's all over the place. Who's.

[Rich Paul]

It's like, no, I got it. I would love to get.

[Max Kellerman]

Someone's in Germany, someone's in China, someone's in Brazil. Wherever they are, we got it.

[Rich Paul]

I would love international perspective on two things.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Do you see real prospects coming from China to the NBA? Yes. Hanson, Yang. I don't know if it'd be more to follow, but that's going to be every three to five years, probably. What's your perception of Chinese brands like Anta Leaning and others entering the American market? Do you see them becoming real competitors in traditional to the traditional giants in

[Max Kellerman]

the us this is a good question. I'm interested in your response to this.

[Rich Paul]

Let me know once you're in. You're in China. I'm here to help. Clutch. Well, we can use help in China.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, he's getting on your pronunciation of laissez faire.

[Rich Paul]

Ah, sorry. P.S. love you, Rich, but some. Some has to Say this. Your laissez faire pronunciation is awful. Thank you for that. I can accept.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Being coached in foreign languages.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes. Your French is not what it's where it's.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I took Goya to my Spanish class to get extra credit, Ms. Pimp. But my perception is I'm not sure if the Chinese brands could somehow infiltrate grassroots and start to have their brands have connectivity with the youth. Maybe. So if they can't crack the grassroots, then it's gonna be tough because. But it's not impossible. And if they spend enough money, kids

[Max Kellerman]

have to think the brand is cool.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. They have to think it's cool.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But I will say this like, you would say Li Ning and Anta. You know how big Anta is. Li Ning is big.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

But Anta is big.

[Max Kellerman]

What if they just made a more affordable product that was cool enough? But, but, but, but. I mean, I mean, part of street wear is that there's. There's like an exclusivity to it because it's expensive sometimes, but sometimes if Thomas Something's just. Is. Something is just, you know, really well made and it looks good and it's cool enough and you sell it at the right price point.

[Rich Paul]

It's grassroots for connectivity, not necessarily for a specific athlete. Moving product, because that's pretty tough to do for any athlete. Definitely one or two athletes. But you have to have kids grow up with it. And then, you know, it's in the community, is in the retail stores that they like or that's in their community. And then, you know, it starts to have an effect in schools and so on and so forth. Or the other way to do that is. And again, this is just so tough. Have the right ambassador that actually has an impact on culture to move product, which is extremely tough to do.

[Max Kellerman]

Who would be the right ambassador, for example?

[Rich Paul]

Well, the best example was Kanye. He had. I mean, he just. He just had that. It, like whenever he touched. That would have been.

[Max Kellerman]

That went the other way.

[Rich Paul]

But yeah, that would have been a big move. That would have been a big move. I don't know. I don't. I don't know, to be honest with

[Max Kellerman]

you, because probably good if Kid Master doesn't have psychotic episodes.

[Rich Paul]

Matt, these. These kids minds change so much today. And it's not like how it was when you and I grew up. Right. We want. It's like those are fresh, what you have on.

[Max Kellerman]

What's those Stan Smiths or.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, they're not Stan Smith.

[Max Kellerman]

No, but they're.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, they're oh, they're a different version of Stan Smith. Oh, that's pretty cool. Pretty dope. Yeah. But like I like to. I. I wore certain shoes for different reasons because I saw my Uncle Lance or I saw, you know, Bernard Sawyer or Steve Clark or know somebody that was in my community as well as.

[Max Kellerman]

This is the point you made about Jordans.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Like you. So you have to have that connectivity. But today, Max, unlike when we grew up, we had to have a specific type of shoe. At least nowadays you see kids anything from Birkenstocks to Balenciaga down.

[Max Kellerman]

So that would mean yes, maybe.

[Rich Paul]

Right. That's what I'm saying. There is a chance. But if there are. But there's luxury and then there's sportswear. So from a sporting perspective, I think you have to get into grassroots.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. Hey, guys. Blake from Florida, first off, you're killing it. Congratulations. Assuming OG is healthy, if you were the odds makers, would you think the Knicks would be favorites in the series versus either Cleveland or Detroit? So obviously this is before game seven. Piston smokes us a few times regular season. But Rich off. As Rich often says, NBA playoffs is almost a different sport than regular season NBA. And if the Knicks make the finals, I know we'd be dogs. But you gave them punchers chance versus but you gave them. Give them a puncher's chance versus either OKC or San Antonio. We beat the spurs this year and played OKC very OKC very well. I think the Knicks, as I've been saying all along, match up with San Antonio in an interesting way. But the Thunder, because Rich, we've been talking about this all playoffs. The two teams that are playing the best team ball or the Knicks and the Thunder. Yes, but the Thunder are just bigger and deeper as a team. You ready to do it? Are you? Are you? Am I paused for some reason. Can I. Can I guess I shouldn't say that the bigs are going to get sucked out to the perimeter.

[Rich Paul]

Max. Max, come on. Max, come on.

[Max Kellerman]

They're longer on the bench.

[Rich Paul]

Stay. Stay focused, Max. Stay focused. Stay focused. Stay focused.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, let's listen to a voicemail.

[Rich Paul]

Let's do a voicemail. That was wild. Good afternoon, Rich and Max. This is Anthony from Philadelphia. 12 year season ticket holder. It took me a few days to get my thoughts together after that Knick series. My question been personal, but it's kind of enriches a line where I'm curious about what would it take to restructure Joelle's contract since that's kind of the hindrance. To the Sixers career. Right. Six years future. I'm sorry. Right now. And if you could just explain to that from, like, the agent side, what would it take to restructure, how to medically approach it? Like, if there's medical retirement involved. Earlier in the season, he mentioned he wasn't ready, but now he's kind of better. And, Max, if you could just tell me as well, what got you into boxing overall, kind of curious. Have a great day, gentlemen. Bye. Well, what was his name?

[Max Kellerman]

I didn't hear who he's. What player? He was talking about Anthony. Anthony from Philly.

[Rich Paul]

Well, Anthony, there is no restructuring.

[Max Kellerman]

Who's he talking about?

[Rich Paul]

He said Joel. Joel has a guaranteed.

[Max Kellerman]

Joel.

[Rich Paul]

Joel has a guaranteed deal that actually starts this year. So there's no restructuring. He'll be a Sixer.

[Max Kellerman]

I've never seen in any sport anything quite like this, ever. A player who's undeniably elite if he's on the court, who has negative trade value.

[Rich Paul]

When does that happen?

[Max Kellerman]

Joel Embiid is in the conversation for best play player in the game. If he's healthy, he's just never healthy. And as a result, and because he's such a big piece and it. It changes the dynamic of your team, it's. It could actually be detrimental to a team even when he gets healthy, because it's like, well, it changes everything. And then he's going to be out of the lineup again, and they're going to have to readjust.

[Rich Paul]

Keyword is health. He was healthy. Every team in the league will want a healthy team.

[Max Kellerman]

But not only has he yet, Rich, it's. He comes into the league with an issue with his back, and it's his knee, it's his back, it's his face. Everything is always going wrong. And now you couple that with the beginning of a giant deal. When has it ever been. I'm trying to think of a sport that it's ever been like this.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but that's not his fault. Have you ever played?

[Max Kellerman]

I'm not blaming him. I'm saying it's interesting.

[Rich Paul]

Full basketball game.

[Max Kellerman]

Who Embiid?

[Rich Paul]

You?

[Max Kellerman]

No, just try.

[Rich Paul]

Then try playing 80.

[Max Kellerman]

And I'm not seven feet tall.

[Rich Paul]

Then try playing 82 of them.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but other people seem to be able to do it.

[Rich Paul]

I understand.

[Max Kellerman]

I have no argument. Wait, it's. I'm not. I was saying a bad Joel Embiid. I'm not saying that. On the contrary, I'm saying amazing Joel Embiid. But the fact is, give me another player who's still supposed to be in a physical prime ever, who is still, when he's on the floor, among the very best at his sport. Who had negative trade value. Listen, has it ever happened in any sport?

[Rich Paul]

Max, it's a tough thing, but.

[Max Kellerman]

And we're not talking about a locker room problem.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

We're talking about just injury history.

[Rich Paul]

Health is important. Health is wealth. Health is wealth.

[Max Kellerman]

All right. Oh, well, what got me into boxing? Yeah, I was getting into fights. My father took me to the gym when I was about 8. 8 years old. And I fell in love with boxing.

[Rich Paul]

Well, Max, great show.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I don't appreciate you laughing at my grandmother.

[Max Kellerman]

I apologize for that, but it was hard not to.

[Rich Paul]

But I got something for the next show. Game on the line. The greatest players of all time across baseball, football and basketball. Not right now, okay? I want you to think about this, all right? And we'll talk about game on the line.

[Max Kellerman]

So clutch. Greatest, clutch players ever.

[Rich Paul]

Game on the line. The greatest players across these three sports. But you're going to have your group. I'm going to have my group.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

You have some in mind already?

[Max Kellerman]

What's that? Yeah, I mean, of course. They jump to mind in every sport. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. Okay. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

And also, we're gonna play an interesting game.

[Rich Paul]

Which game?

[Max Kellerman]

You sent this one to me.

[Rich Paul]

Oh. Oh, yes. Yes. What was it? Love to play. Needs to win.

[Max Kellerman]

There's a dip. People make the mistake of thinking if a guy doesn't. If a guy doesn't give you. Like, people just categorize things in a binary way. Good, bad, bad. Like, just now, I talked about Embiid's injury. Oh, he is saying embiid equals bad. No, I'm saying Embiid equals good. But he's in this weird situation. Right.

[Rich Paul]

Or.

[Max Kellerman]

Or if I'm comparing SGA and Kobe. Oh, he's saying SGA bad. No, I'm saying in a comparison to Kobe, I like Kobe more. So people think, like, either a guy loves to play the game and needs to win good, or he doesn't have those things bad. But you're making a really good distinction. There are some guys who obviously love to play the game, but they don't need to win.

[Rich Paul]

They don't need to win. Not everybody needs to win. But there are some guys that love to play the game and they actually need to win.

[Max Kellerman]

And then there's some. Are there any guys who need to win but don't necessarily love to play the game?

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

I'll say. I want to say one name. We're not going to Play it now. I want to say one name. The ultimate guy in the Venn diagram of needs to win. Loves to play the game. The shaded area. The number one guy ever in this is Magic Johnson.

[Rich Paul]

Okay?

[Max Kellerman]

Magic Johnson. Number one. Needed to win. Love to play the game more than anyone.

[Rich Paul]

We're going to do it next show. We'll play this game. I was trying to sneak with it. No, no, no, no. See, I knew he was going to do that. No, because we'll be here for another hour. Another hour. Great show.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, I'll see you. What day is it? We'll see you on Monday.

[Rich Paul]

No, see you on Wednesday and Wednesday.

[Max Kellerman]

What day is it?

[Rich Paul]

Today is Monday.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, it's not. What? Sunday night. We're fresh off the game. This is gonna air on Monday.

[Rich Paul]

Sunday night, Monday morning. It's the same. We like. We act. We like. Two hours away from it being Monday.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, it's true, right? Yeah, you're right.

[Rich Paul]

Monday, Max. Actually, it's actually Monday on the East Coast.

[Max Kellerman]

On the east coast, it is Monday.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, look at that. It's Monday somewhere. Right?

[Rich Paul]

All right.

[Max Kellerman]

All right. So I'll see you on Wednesday.

[Rich Paul]

See you on Wednesday. Yes. Game [e-mail].

[Max Kellerman]

game over with Max Kellerman and Rich.

[Rich Paul]

Actually, you'll talk to me because we got to talk about the game tonight.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So we'll be. We'll be talking about it.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah. No, I'm saying I'll see you. I don't know if I'm going to see you before Wednesday.

[Rich Paul]

We might. We might go to the match.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that's true.

[Rich Paul]

I don't like when you do that,

[Max Kellerman]

Max, but for them, you're breaking the fourth wall.

[Rich Paul]

We'll see them on Wednesday. Yeah, you'll see me. You might see me.

[Max Kellerman]

We're not going to see them at all. They're going to see us on Wednesday.

[Rich Paul]

However you want to call this.

[Max Kellerman]

424-240-8341. 240-8341. And we'll play your voicemail game [e-mail]. why are the voicemails so low? I can barely hear what people are saying.

[Rich Paul]

I know, it sounds like For Lovers Only.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, they're calling, like, from the 80s on a payphone.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, we got. Yeah, we got to fix that.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

All right. Oh, man. We'll see you guys on Wednesday.

[Max Kellerman]

Sorry about your grandma.

[Rich Paul]

You know, that was wrong.

[Max Kellerman]

Big Red and couldn't think.

[Rich Paul]

I know. That was serious. That was serious, though. Grandma. Grandma Campbell, man. Man, she couldn't eat that.

[Max Kellerman]

Did you ever try like having the winter fresh just to balance it out, like something spicy, something cool.

[Rich Paul]

I used to think about just like putting a big red inside of a spearmint.

[Max Kellerman]

Did you ever do it?

[Rich Paul]

No, I was too scared.

[Max Kellerman]

Bad little kid.

[Rich Paul]

Our bottom drawer. Yeah, I didn't want to. I didn't want to chance it. I didn't want to chance it. I had some devious thoughts. My Grandma Campbell, My Grandma Campbell was such a good grandmother to me. Man, I couldn't do that to grandma.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

She the one that gave me the bankroll all the time.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh really?

[Rich Paul]

She would give me a what? She would give me a hell of five bank row as a kid. I would go in there. Grandma Camel, give me 500. Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

I had my grandmother, my Bubba, who I named my dad daughter after Esther. Used to when I would come over and come over the house, she'd give me a dollar. When I'd sleep over, she'd give me $2. So I always wanted to sleep over her house.

[Rich Paul]

Grandma Campbell. When I go in there, it was like, literally it was like going to. Obviously I know I went to a all boy Catholic high school, so it was like going to confessions. I'm going to confess. But I would go there and it's like I'm in front of a, a jury and a judge. Was only one judge. And I'm going there and I'm stating my case. Granny, I'm on my way to Florida.

[Max Kellerman]

How old were you?

[Rich Paul]

10, 11. Granny, I'm on my way to Florida. How long are you going to be there? I'll be there for four or five days. What are you going for? I'm going for a football national championship. And I'm sitting there, she said, open that drawer up down there. Now. I, I already hit Uncle Lance. I hit my brother Miko. I hit my father. So I got them three on the line already. Plus I got my stash from my gambling.

[Max Kellerman]

Nice.

[Rich Paul]

Yep. And then I go see Grandma Campbell

[Max Kellerman]

and she, and she would hook you up.

[Rich Paul]

She gave me 500. 500, right.

[Max Kellerman]

So now then to a 10 year old, I'm telling you.

[Rich Paul]

So now you think I'm joking. So now when I go to miss

[Max Kellerman]

find out you were running numbers for Grandma.

[Rich Paul]

So listen, Ms. Rip. But Ms. Riff would be our, our secretary treasury. So you had to get. So most kids, you give your money to Ms. Riff and it's in the yellow envelope and they write, Max gets $20 a day because you in Florida for five days. So I would give Ms. Riff, half of mine and I would keep the other half because we take a lakefront trailway from Cleveland, Ohio, to Orlando, Florida, or Daytona Beach. Sometimes we went play the Soyza championship, national championship, and we would gamble from Cleveland all the way to Florida.

[Max Kellerman]

Let me ask you a real question. I know we're supposedly already wrapped, but this is a real question. This is a real question. And this is in your book because you didn't always have your mom around, right? And your life and the life you're describing is not. There must have been a part of you that wished for, like, a more normal existence all the time. On the other hand, your experiences, because you did have, like, it Takes a village. You did have grandmothers and uncles and. And your father, other people helping to raise you, but in a way that you had to be enterprising, which eventually turned you into an entrepreneur. It gave you all these tools. But looking back at it, how much is the. That pull? And there has to be some sadness about not having the thing that you must have wanted more than anything, balanced, counterbalanced by the fact that you turned you into who you were, which is an extraordinary person who's lived this extraordinary life. You know what I mean?

[Rich Paul]

It's definitely what I would say. I guess it would be a gift and a curse, because the gift is what is how I was molded. The curse is, obviously, every child wants to be around their mom and then seeing, you know, seeing. Going on trips and people's moms could actually go or, you know, I would have loved for my mom to be able to take me and my friends to the game as all the parents, like, pile up and kids getting. I was always in somebody else's car. I was always at somebody else's house. I was always, you know, so, you know, parent teacher conferences and things like that. I didn't have my mom there. So that. That. That part was tough. And I'm not, you know, even today, I think about those things. But then the way I was raised, you also just say to yourself, like, that wasn't in the cards for me. That wasn't. That wasn't my deck of cards. I got dealt a different hand. And so I can only play the hand I was dealt. But. But, yeah, like, I, you know, and

[Max Kellerman]

it's not an either or. You could have been wound up very successful even, but in a kind of, again, a binary way. It's either this or that, right? But if you would have had a more normal existence, but that would have meant that you were less likely to Achieve the way you have because you wouldn't have acquired quite the same skills that you have through your life experiences. You know, I think a lot of people go through this when they think about the stuff they've been through. But I wouldn't be me had I not gone through this stuff.

[Rich Paul]

And.

[Max Kellerman]

But in your case especially, you came from nowhere to great heights. And I imagine part of that is because of that circumstance.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I think there's. There's. I definitely paid a price for my success. You know, I sacrifice a lot, But to be able to have one normal night, you know, my mom, you know, dinner, siblings, just. I think about it in a different way. I would much rather have that, you know, because there was a lot of. I'm not a jealous or envious person. I don't. I don't get shit. Don't bother me like that. But the one thing that. That made me a little bothered was I never. I never really had that consistently. You know, there were, you know, flashes in the pan where I had it. Yeah, but, like, not consistently. And so when I think about it from that perspective, there's different parts of life that I feel like had I had that, I would have been better. I would say prepared for, you know, adulthood in a way. And things of that nature, like not having a mother's love all the time, it creates something totally different now for me. What it created was me going into this world that I'm in and people always having something to say or trying to do things, spiteful things and so on and so forth. The assembly line I was built on is a lot different. So I've been through the worst of the worst, so that stuff don't really bother me.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't remember if you told me this. If I read it in the book that Peaches, your mom would. Because, by the way, Rich's book is lucky me. Great read. If you're interested. Got to promote the book. We should have it here.

[Rich Paul]

We should have the book here. We had the book here, but go

[Max Kellerman]

ahead, look at this. We're doing like a. Yeah. An Oprah moment or whatever. And we don't have the.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I know. We should have a book here.

[Max Kellerman]

How you were talking about how when the garbage was half full, she would make you take it out. But it was like, what struck me a bit. That's the thing that stuck with me. Was that in the book?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

That stuck with me more than anything else.

[Rich Paul]

I believe it was in the book.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, like. And you would. That's stuck with me. More than any. That detail, more than anything else. Because what it told me was that's like a very kind of mundane detail. Right. Like, it's a kind of an ordinary thing, but it was meaningful to you because you wanted to have that experience of a mom doing the things that moms do.

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

Like, and the fact that that's a detail that you can remember is so super meaningful to you that when she was around and she was okay, she would do things like that, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. You know, like, when she was around and she was okay. The food, the conversations, the music, those are the things that, you know, you miss out on. And then obviously, my mom always stressed that. Just the importance of being clean. Like, we didn't have much, but it was clean when she was there. You could smell that pine saw, you know, those. That bathroom. And such a mom putting the toilet seat down because there's girls in the house or. Or making your bed or, you know, like, she. It's just little things that I. Now that part I was able to take with me. But I also think it's the reason why I'm so close to mom, you know, like when we were in Chicago and, you know, Brian broke his wrist in Chicago. We had to stay there, and he broke his wrist. And I met some people that became family to me, and I was very close to their mom. You know, it's the Napolez family, Maria and Christina and. And their mom and their dad. I met them, but I became really close to their mom to the point to where every time we went back to Chicago, I would see them still to this day, like, every time. And no matter what I was. No matter all my friends, moms, for whatever reason, if you. Mike Ivey's mom, she didn't let nobody in the house but me. Like, you could. You could stand at that back door or the front door, but you can't come in. I just had this thing where the moms trusted me. And I don't know. I don't know if it's because they knew that what I was going through, because obviously the neighborhood's small, you know, these things, or whatever, but. Yeah, man, I still think about it to this day, though. Sometimes I even. Sometimes I even think about things like, you know, just. You get to a point in life where the simple things still have to have. Bring joy and happiness. I never want to get out of a place where the simple things don't be. Don't bring joy. Like, I be in traffic sometimes I may see a couple, and I'm like, if they're just Friday night going to the movies and having a dinner, like,

[Max Kellerman]

that's just like to watch them.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, that's a big deal. You know, I never want to get out of it. I still go to the movies. I like to do things that. It doesn't always have to be this big flashy thing. I like to do the simple things because that's what brought me the most joy, you know? So, yeah, never like to get out of that. That mindset.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I was just wondering about that. When you tell the stories about different things that you experienced and the line from there to success in business is in retrospect, or at least from where I'm sitting, it's like, oh, I could say, see where that's. That's a kid acquiring skills that he will later use. Right. But. But like, I would. I would imagine that you would trade all that to have experiences.

[Rich Paul]

I would trade. Well, first of all, I don't know.

[Max Kellerman]

That's why.

[Rich Paul]

No, I would. Well, I don't have my mom or dad. I would trade everything just to have their presence. Number one.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, there's a. There's a curb your enthusiasm where super Dave Osborne Funk Houser, who passed away, you know, a couple years ago. It was hilarious. And one of his parents had just passed and he's probably in his 70s by now. And he tells Larry, I'm an orphan. And Larry makes fun of him. He's like, no, you know, but. But let me tell you something. No matter how old you are, you lose your parents, man. That is.

[Rich Paul]

That is.

[Max Kellerman]

You are like that, that thing. You can't be an orphan. You're 70 years old. Yes, you can be.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, no, it's, it's. Yeah, I would, I would definitely, definitely just. Just to have. To have just that one family dinner.

[Max Kellerman]

Of course.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I would.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't want to end on this note. I wanted like, end on a better note.

[Rich Paul]

No, this is. I mean, no, it's great.

[Max Kellerman]

It's real and everything.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. No, listen, man, like I said, I think like I said in the book, would I change something? No. Would I. Would I change. Trade something in? Yeah, but you know, it's just part of your.

[Max Kellerman]

It's not on the table anyway.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, it's just part of your journey. I didn't know at the time why a lot of these things were being done. But I'll tell you something, Max. I spent a lot of time alone. I told you just before. And all the things I was going through not seeing Seeing too much while not seeing enough of someone that you actually love and care for and want their love back. You couldn't tell. You couldn't tell what I was going through at school. My teachers couldn't tell. I didn't give up. I didn't do ABAC on any tests. I was never disrespectful or anything like that. You could not tell. You just couldn't. For some reason that was instilled in me, like, just being positive, having positive energy.

[Max Kellerman]

You had adults who loved you. Every kid.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, I had a ton of adults in that.

[Max Kellerman]

Every kid needs at least one. One adult who gives a shit about them.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, well, I had a whole community of people that gave a shit about me. And obviously my dad and siblings. I mean, the love was there, but it's everyone else's love. And obviously I knew my mom loved me, but to have her there, that's a different dynamic.

[Max Kellerman]

So.

[Rich Paul]

All right, all right, Max. Well, I didn't know you was going to take me there, but. I didn't know either.

[Max Kellerman]

I didn't know either. I mean, damn, you were telling some story. It occurred to me.

[Rich Paul]

No, I know why you did that.

[Max Kellerman]

Why is that?

[Rich Paul]

Because I'm not forgiving you for my grandmother's gums. It won't happen. I know what you did that for. It don't happen. You trying to.

[Max Kellerman]

I made it up. Now, see how, like, emotional. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Max Kellerman]

I got emotional. I'm sorry, Grandma. What's your name?

[Rich Paul]

Grandma Campbell.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, Grandma Campbell.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

I apologize to Grandma Campbell.

[Rich Paul]

She ain't tripping, man. Grandma ain't tripping.

[Max Kellerman]

Cinnamon. Cinnamon gum.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, she died my freshman year of high school. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

All right. Oh, look, we got it. Lucky me.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, there it is.

[Rich Paul]

There it is. Yeah. We gotta go.

[Max Kellerman]

Why are you posing without your shirt on? And a coach. What is this about?

[Rich Paul]

Well, you wanna know the truth? I was. This is in front of my dad's store. It was hot.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And so you just think you look

[Max Kellerman]

good there, and you wanted that on the COVID Just.

[Rich Paul]

But here's.

[Max Kellerman]

You're in shape.

[Rich Paul]

Here's the thing. This. This was a. I had on like a. A Nautica fleece top and bottom, and then, you know, then the Tommy boxers. So picture lady came by and pitch lady would give you five for 20 on the. On the pictures. And it was a dope fit. And I'm just like, you know what? And you can't. You can't see it, but there's a little blue box that the Plain Dealer would. They would put the Plain Dealer in there. My dad's store was closed. It's off to the side. So what I had on was. Was on.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, you kind of look older in that pit. I think you're like Benjamin button.

[Rich Paul]

I was 14 on here, man.

[Max Kellerman]

You look like a gr. Look at your face in that picture.

[Rich Paul]

And, you know, the herringbone back then, this was.

[Max Kellerman]

That's a big herringbone.

[Rich Paul]

The bigger. The herringbone. The flyer you was. That was the whole thing.

[Max Kellerman]

My herringbone. I had a herringbone, but it was, you know.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you had to wear the.

[Max Kellerman]

No, that's a big herringbone.

[Rich Paul]

The big herringbones, I think. I think. Where'd I get that from that day? My man Dice. Yep. His name was Drew, but we called him Dice Clay. Andrew Dice Clay.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, of course.

[Rich Paul]

But it. But his name was Drew. Yeah, I think that was. I think that maybe him or maybe.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, so Lucky Me. A Memoir of Changing the Eyes. Didn't this spend time on the New York Times bestseller?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, it did. Yeah, it did. Yeah. It's great.

[Max Kellerman]

Forward by a LeBron James. Who's that?

[Rich Paul]

I can't, by the way, Max. I can't even get through. I can't get through it.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I can see why I can't.

[Rich Paul]

I can't. I can't get through the. I can't get through the forward. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

And there's the way you. The way you designed the book, where there's, like, little life lessons that you've extracted from these experiences.

[Rich Paul]

I felt like the book was less. I. I wanted the book to be less about me and more about us. I think when I say us, everybody. Black, white, red, purple. It don't matter gender. There's. There's. There's a part of that book that you can relate to.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

And I wanted to write it in that way. The rules were. Was the last thing I added.

[Max Kellerman]

That you added at the end.

[Rich Paul]

At the end. Because me and Jesse Washington, who actually wrote the book in his format, and we was. He was great. He visited Cleveland. Everything. We. It was great. It was a big process. And when I. When he sent it to me and I was kind of reading, I was like, something's missing. I was like, I want to. I want to give people one. If a kid was to read that book, what's the one thing they can take? Because they don't always get the paragraphs and stuff. I was like. I wanted to leave them with one thing that they can take. It's good. And that's how the rules came.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Because it's kind. It's like an organizing principle of that chapter.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

But you did it in reverse first and then you came up with the rules.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, we came up with the rules. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So that's good.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

It's good. All right.

[Max Kellerman]

Now for the fifth time, we'll see if this one sticks. You will see us on Wednesday. Yes.

[Rich Paul]

See you guys on Wednesday.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Looking forward to it.

[Max Kellerman]

There's no more.

[Rich Paul]

No more. No more.

[Max Kellerman]

21 and over in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.orgchattinconnecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org In Maryland, Hope is here. Visit Gambling Helpline Massachusetts or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867. Did you know if your windows are bare, indoor temperatures can go up 20 degrees. Get ahead of summer with custom window treatments like solar roller shades from blinds.com and save up to 45% off during

[Rich Paul]

the Memorial Day Early Access sale.

[Max Kellerman]

Whether you want to DIY it or have a pro handle everything, we've got

[Rich Paul]

you free samples, real design experts and zero pressure.

[Max Kellerman]

Just help when you need it.

[Rich Paul]

Shop up to 45% off site wide

[Max Kellerman]

right now during the Early Access Memorial

[Rich Paul]

day [e-mail] Rules and restrictions apply.