CFP Review, NFL Preview, and a Sports Business Master Class

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: CFP Review, NFL Preview, and a Sports Business Master Class

Date: January 2, 2026
Podcast: The Ringer

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Overview: Main Theme and Purpose

In this engaging episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul blend sports debate with business insight, tackling the College Football Playoff (CFP) upsets, previewing critical NFL matchups, and diving deep into the economics of athlete branding. They mix sharp analysis, humor, and real industry expertise, offering listeners both insider football commentary and a genuine "sports business master class."

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Banter: New Year's, Golf Simulators & Baldness in Pop Culture

• Rich pokes fun at Max’s New York hat and both share New Year stories, blending personal anecdotes with their familiar banter. (00:38–06:06)
• The conversation veers into a humorous critique of hair loss commercials and the media's portrayal of baldness—interwoven with references to Montel Williams and Tupac as cultural icons who embraced the look.
  • “Is hair really that important? When I was a kid, Montel Williams was the man. He had a bald head. Michael Jordan, bald head.”—Rich Paul [05:00]

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2. CFP Deep Dive: Emotions, Analysis, & Upsets

Rich's Pain as an Ohio State Fan

• Max expresses sympathy for Rich’s Buckeyes, who failed to defend their championship. (06:53)
• Rich candidly discusses how team losses affect his mood and daily life.
  • “When the Buckeyes or the Browns lose, I'm really not a nice guy the next day. It really bothers me.”—Rich Paul [07:09]

Playoff Analysis and Miami’s Big Win

• Detailed breakdown of Miami’s surprising win over Ohio State and what set the Hurricanes apart:
  • Miami played with hunger while Ohio State looked “a little bit full”—lacking the necessary urgency.
  • Rich credits Miami’s defense, efficient quarterback play, and Cristobal’s coaching culture. (10:53)
  • The 23-day layoff after the regular season is cited as hurting Ohio State’s momentum.
    • “The 23 days off really hurt us. I don’t like the 23 days off.”—Rich Paul [11:57]

NFL Prospects on Display

• Both hosts survey NFL-caliber talent in the CFP, especially on defense.
  • “McDonald is the new Vince Wilfork. Arvel Reese… he might go 1 overall…”—Rich Paul [13:12]

Should Elite College Players Enter the NFL Draft Earlier?

• Rich floats the idea of flexibility in eligibility, proposing a two-years-plus-one rule for extraordinary talents.
  • “For guys like Jeremiah Smith, we got to have a two-plus-one (years) rule.”—Rich Paul [16:21]
• Max adds that such a system could become a televised event—another moneymaker for college football.

Is Parity Good for College Football?

• Debate on whether upsets and non-traditional powers (like Indiana) winning is healthy for the sport.
  • Max prefers a world where traditional programs maintain their dominance, but concedes parity is here—and it’s shaped by factors like NIL and coaching carousel effects. (17:59–18:46)

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3. Cultural Shifts: Coaching Trees, NIL, and the Saban Effect

• Max and Rich note how Nick Saban’s coaching tree now populates the upper echelons of college football.
  • “Nick Saban, the Greg Popovich of college football.”—Rich Paul [18:46]
• Rich pinpoints how the arrival of Name, Image, and Likeness (NIL) has shifted the game, incentivizing players and programs differently.
  • “When you can’t distinguish good from great, the business is in trouble.”—Rich Paul [19:03]

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4. NFL Weekend Preview

Game of the Week: Ravens vs. Steelers

• Both hosts agree this is the matchup of the weekend, with high stakes for coaches John Harbaugh and Mike Tomlin. (25:42)
• Discussion extends to their Sunday routines juxtaposed with NFL viewing habits, and balancing NBA and NFL as sports fans. (26:20–28:23)

Coaching Job Security: Harbaugh & Tomlin

• Both agree it would be folly for either franchise to fire their proven head coaches.
  • “If you fire Mike Tomlin and or Harbaugh, who are you hiring?”—Rich Paul [29:27]
• The discussion draws on the coaches' ability to foster cultures and adapt: offense, defense, or both.

Steelers vs. Ravens Tactical Preview

• Rich and Max weigh the importance of defense for Pittsburgh and Derrick Henry’s expected workload for Baltimore.
  • “How many touches should Derrick Henry get in this game?”—Rich Paul [37:54]
  • Max: “Infinity.” (37:54)
• Max on Aaron Rodgers: He’s saving his best for a playoff run, likening it to LeBron saving defense for high-leverage moments. (39:05)
• Final picks: Max chooses the Steelers; Rich leans Ravens. (39:44–44:24)

Seahawks vs. Niners & Other Notes

• Conversation covers QB Sam Darnold’s “boom or bust” potential for the Seahawks, 49ers’ defensive issues, and the reality that only a handful of teams are true contenders. (41:00–44:24)
• Picks recap: Max takes Steelers and Niners; Rich picks Ravens and Seahawks.

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5. Sports Business Master Class: Building an Athlete Brand

Difference Between a Brand & a Business

• Rich Paul provides a step-by-step breakdown (62:11–66:00) of the athlete shoe business, from rookie deal to signature sneaker and the importance of equity, regional markets, and royalty structures.
  • “Most athletes… don’t have a business off the court. What they perceive as a brand is not a business.”—Rich Paul [61:39]

Cultural Relatability & Lifestyle

• To transcend as a brand, athletes must connect to culture (e.g., Allen Iverson, Kyrie Irving) and understand pricing.
  • “When I think about that… who can I build a business with? The other one I have to add is Penny Hardaway, because Penny Hardaway had the opportunity to build, I do believe, a billion-dollar business.”—Rich Paul [58:22]
• Max raises how market demand, influencers, and product story contribute to the sneaker’s success.

Signature Shoe Hierarchy

• Not everyone can get a signature shoe; traffic jams and generational talent matter. (67:23)
• Rich credits Kyrie Irving with “one of the best shoes” and a strong comeback with a new partnership.

The Role of Pricing and Lifestyle

• On setting the right price point:
  • “Once you start outpricing families, it’s going to hurt your business.”—Rich Paul [75:18]
• Lifestyle shoes in the '90s vs. now and how athletic footwear has shifted in cultural relevance.

On Colorways, Marketing, and Storytelling

• Rich breaks down the significance of colorways—red, black, and white in footwear compared to restaurant branding (81:03).
  • “Marketing is storytelling… You tell a great story that people can buy into and believe.”—Rich Paul [79:14]

On Athlete Partners, Business Expansion & Royalties

• The path from PE (Player Edition) to a true signature athlete and global expansion, especially into Asia Pacific markets.
• Why it’s important for athletes to switch up their support team once they reach true business status.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Max on College Football Playoff’s Upset Theme:
  “Miami played like they needed it.”—Max Kellerman [10:31]
• Rich on NCAA Eligibility Rules:
  “For guys like Jeremiah Smith, we got to have a two-plus-one rule.”—Rich Paul [16:21]
• Rich on Business Fundamentals:
  “Most representation cannot add value in multifaceted ways in those rooms. If your agent has never bought sneakers, how can he add value?”—Rich Paul [68:15]
• On Building Athlete Brands:
  “When you have a business, here’s how it works…your play, your market, your character, your willingness to cooperate. Now, your partner does matter—because the product matters.”—Rich Paul [62:11]
• Culture as a Competitive Advantage: “It can’t be an advertisement. It has to actually be a seed planted in the foundation of…an organization.”—Rich Paul [46:10]
• On Signature Sneakers Price Point: “Once you out price families, it’s going to hurt your business.”—Rich Paul [75:18]

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Important Timestamps

• New Year Banter & Baldness Commentary: 00:38–06:06
• OSU/Miami CFP Analysis & NFL Draft Talk: 06:53–18:46
• Saban’s Coaching Tree & NIL Impact: 18:46–19:33
• NFL Preview (Ravens–Steelers/Coaching Futures): 25:42–44:24
• Business of Athletic Branding: 61:39–76:48
• Industry Insights: Colorways, Culture, Storytelling: 79:14–82:46

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Flow & Tone

The episode is a lively, free-flowing blend of sports debate, humor, and straight-up game on how deals really work. Max provides the passionate sports journalist perspective, while Rich delivers the agent’s business wisdom, often with street-level credibility and real-world advice for athletes.

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For New Listeners

If you missed this episode, you’ll come away with:

• An understanding of recent seismic shifts in college and pro football.
• Insight into why certain teams and athletes succeed—or falter—on and off the field.
• A rare, behind-the-scenes guide to the economics and strategy behind athlete branding and the signature sneaker business.
• Culture talk: how winning teams (and brands) build cultures that last.

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Reminder: Picks for NFC/AFC matchups set in stone.
Catch their next episode recap for who was right!

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Please subscribe to Game Over and join in on the next master class or sports debate!

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Why do you have a New York hat on?

[A]

This is Ralph.

[B]

Yeah, but it still says ny.

[A]

I mean, I love it, but I'm international. This could say Madrid.

[B]

You have a good new year.

[A]

I had a great new year. I was chilling, man. I'm sorry.

[B]

I was dead by 9 o'. Clock.

[A]

Well, I'll tell you what, it's so good to have rich friends. I was at. I was all over the place. But I did go. I went to. I was on the simulator. You know, golf. LJ has a beautiful simulator in his house. And I was thinking about getting a simulator. I'm like, why the. Why. Why would I buy a simulator when this guy has spent top dollar on a simulator?

[B]

Cause you could play it at home.

[A]

Yeah, but here's the thing. I can also play it at his house and I don't need him to be there.

[B]

Ah, well, in that case, if it's like that. If it's like that. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

What do you mean, if it's like that? I just go, what do you mean?

[B]

LeBron probably doesn't need a simulator in his house. He could just have an actual golf course.

[A]

No, he has the. Well, yeah, but the simulator's beautiful.

[B]

Do you know remember how you said I have to be more positive in the new year? I did not start the new year positively. Cause I'm watching. Which game was it? It's the Indiana game. Blow out of. Thank God I didn't. I was about to say on the show on Wednesday, Indiana's. I was about to say on the show on Wednesday, you know, I have a sneaking suspicion Alabama can upset him. But anyway, it's such a blowout that the thing that stuck with me in that game there was a hair commercial, like, for men. Right. And I don't have any problem with that. But maybe because. Me either. Maybe because I'm a Larry David fan and he's like, he, he. I love Larry David the best. And he's always making the bald, like making an issue of the fact that, you know, like that some people shave their heads bald. They're not actually bald. Other people are not bald by choice, all that kind of stuff.

[A]

Jadakiss did that?

[B]

Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I thought Jadakiss was.

[B]

Yeah, right. No, he just shaved his head. Yeah.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

But this commercial comes on. It infuriated me. On behalf of bald people, I got infuriated. They have this really, like, Nordic looking dude, right? With, you know, the big head of hair. And he's. What he say. He said something like, your hair is a reflection of what's happening with you on the inside or something like that. I thought, what is he.

[A]

It's not your hair?

[B]

Yeah, like. Cause they're trying to sell their hair.

[A]

He's saying, like, the folics.

[B]

The follicles. But he's. They're trying to sell their hair product. And really what they're doing is some asshole, like an ad agency sat there and went, you know what? What if we told them that there's something wrong with them on the inside if they're bald? Like, the balding reflects some kind of moral sin or some kind of, like, bad thing about them.

[A]

What was that movie?

[B]

What kind of a dick comes up with that? You think bald people don't feel bad enough about it? You can't just say, hey, here's some stuff. You can regrow your hair. You have to tell them that there's something wrong with them on the inside.

[A]

That reminds me of that movie that Eddie Murphy was in when he was. Didn't he date a girl? Or he was a chief executive at, like, an ad agency.

[B]

You talking about when she took off the wig? That's. I'm gonna get you sucking up.

[A]

No, this is Boomerang. I think it's Boomerang. I think when he. Is it Boomerang.

[B]

I'm forgetting.

[A]

Well, he was working at a company. He talked about this. And he was an executive. He was an executive. And people were like. Didn't really like the movie because it showed black people in these roles as, like, he was an actual executive.

[B]

No, because. No, it wasn't a black movie. Quote, unquote. It was, like, regular people, but the people who filled the positions of professionals were black.

[A]

But in that, I think it was. Was it Grace Jones? It was some type of fragrance. That was a marketing campaign.

[B]

Oh, yeah, man. I saw Boomerang once in the.

[A]

That was Boomerang, right?

[B]

Maybe this is going back to 30 years.

[A]

That was really good.

[B]

Had. Everyone says, but I only saw it once. I saw a distinguished gentleman, like, two or three times. I only saw a Boomerang Once.

[A]

Yeah, I thought that was. Thought Boomerang was a good movie, but. But the marketing campaign was what I was referring to. Like, sometimes you get those things.

[B]

All I could think, I don't know why that made, like, I. I just, you know, life is hard enough for bald people. You got to make them feel like it's something wrong. And why am I the only person that realizes?

[A]

Is hair really that important? Like. Cause I tell you something, when I was a kid, Montel Williams was the man. He had a bald head. Michael Jordan, Michael Jordan, bald head.

[B]

When your guy held on too long, it didn't look right. You just gotta take it off.

[A]

Listen, Tupac had a bald head. I don't think Tupac was bald. I think he just.

[B]

Dude, I had a baldy. That was a style. I had a baldy when I was like 20 years old.

[A]

You know what? I had a baldy one time. I cut my hair bald. I didn't. Like, I went back to my 360s.

[B]

I loved it. No one around me liked it, but I loved it. You get out of the shower, you're dry already. You know what I mean? Like, everything's.

[A]

Yeah, but what look were you going for?

[B]

Roll out of bed and go, but.

[A]

What look were you going for?

[B]

I mean, that was a style back then.

[A]

For who?

[B]

I mean, if you grew up in.

[A]

New York trying to be Benny Hill.

[B]

If you grew up in New York and you know, like, that was. You had either the Tims or the Uptown, the Air Force ones.

[A]

You wanted to be a New York. You wanted to be an onyx. That's what you wanted to do.

[B]

You wanted to be an onyx, but it was a look. All right, you ready to do this?

[A]

Great. Yeah. Let's do it.

[B]

Game over is presented by fanduel. Fanduel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on the NFL playoffs all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com gameover to get started. 21 and over in present in select states or 18 and over in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic. Rich, I'm sorry about Ohio State. I'm sorry.

[A]

Is this how we're going to start the show?

[B]

Listen, that's what Happened, you know.

[A]

You know what? I'm still mourning, man. Are you? I think you have to.

[B]

Did you think you were gonna defend the title?

[A]

Yes. What do you mean, did? I think?

[B]

I don't blame.

[A]

But the problem I have is I'm sitting there and it really. When the Buckeyes or the Browns lose, I'm really not a nice guy the next day. It really bothers me.

[B]

What percentage of your quality of life would you say? When your team loses, does your overall quality of life decrease? 5%, 10%? 25. What is it?

[A]

It depends on the game. Like if we lose. If the Buckeyes lose the first game of the season, 5%. I'm a no.

[B]

No. I mean, when your team gets eliminated.

[A]

The Buckeyes being eliminated, plus the rain in la, I can't play golf. Right. And my Buckeyes are out.

[B]

This is quite a life you've carved out for yourself.

[A]

50%. 50%.

[B]

Quite a life you've carved out for yourself. 50% reigns in LA. You can't play golf.

[A]

I'm looking for your team that won.

[B]

The championship, didn't defend it. They only got to the playoff.

[A]

I'm looking for answers. That's why I'm dressed like Inspector Gadget today.

[B]

Because you got the whole bear theme this whole week.

[A]

I told you, I'm going bear all week. See, you don't know what it's like to be a low life. And I'm not talking about like an idiot. I'm talking about a low.

[B]

I'm a low life.

[A]

But the platform, the industry I work in don't really value, you know, so now we have a stage. I can go in my closet and bring my.

[B]

Take all your polo stuff out.

[A]

Not just polo. See, when you're trying to build a wardrobe, you build a wardrobe timeless. And I tell my guys this all the time. You don't need a thousand thousand dollars hoodies. Let's build a real timeless.

[B]

The classic pieces.

[A]

Yeah. Things that never, you know. And it don't have to cost you 2,500 all the time. Like you, you know, Look, I can shop at the highest of the highest, or I can. And I can mix that in with. I'll still go to TJ Maxx. I'll go to Ross. I'll go to a thrift store and find something. Well, I won't go. But I.

[B]

Actually, actually, actually, I take that back. I'll still go to the thrift store. I take that back and send my staff.

[A]

Here's the thing. If I'm depending on Who I'm with. I don't send no staff. No. It depends on who I'm with. But, you know, I don't mind going sifting through things to find see what you're doing, right? The right piece.

[B]

You see what you're doing.

[A]

What am I doing?

[B]

I'm trying to avoid talking about the game.

[A]

I know, because I'm screwed, man. It's like, here's what I thought. I'll tell you something. I told you, but to my credit, I said, I don't know, Max. Because Miami's defense, I did say that.

[B]

So go back and say Miami's defense. So Miami had a defense, an efficient quarterback, and a power run game. That's complimentary football. That's the way they used to draw it up. Right line of scrimmage, especially on the defensive side. Quarterbacks not making mistakes, run the ball. But so like, that's like kind of the what happened if describing it in terms of football stuff. But the bigger picture was rich. And we talked about this last show with Ben Simmons. You talked about, like, Ben Simmons Mountain was not like some people, their mountaintop is getting to the league. Some people, their mountaintop is getting to the league, getting to that second contract, the max contract if they're a top.

[A]

Player or two or three, right?

[B]

But I'm saying, like, what is your mountaintop? When do you get full? And some people, when I told you that Derek Jeter story, what do you not have that you still want? And he had five rings, so I'm thinking maybe he'll say mvp. He said a sixth ring. Derek Jeter's mountaintop is infinite.

[A]

He wants it. I didn't want my Buckeyes mismanaged.

[B]

I'm saying your Buckeyes were a little bit full. A little bit. Now I'm not. I don't want to take any credit away from those. They're young guys, they played hard. But I mean, it's like the eye of the tiger thing from Rocky iii, right? Miami, that was the difference between thinking you want it and needing it. Miami played like they needed it.

[A]

Miami, look, when Jeremiah Smith made the comments, he said, had Miami been on the track that they're on now, before he might have gone there, right? To me, that's eye opening. And to me it says that Cristobal understands the assignment and he also has read the room. And this is taking a step in the right direction, beating a team like the defending champ Ohio State Buckeyes. And I just felt like those kids on the defense and even on the offense man, when I look at those plays, I mean, everybody from Fletcher and by the way, Carson Beck, yes, man, was phenomenal. But he's also experienced. See, when he left Georgia, people was like, why would he leave a program like that? Blah, blah, blah. Now look, you know, and I just thought that team was really ready to play. But. But ultimately the 23 days off hurt us. The 23 days off really hurt us. I don't like the 23 days off.

[B]

Now, I know how you.

[A]

That's twice. That's twice it's hurt us.

[B]

You, the football fan us, you know, day of mourning, all that stuff. But then there's rich Paul, businessman. And you run an agency.

[A]

I'm always that.

[B]

And when you run an agency, you are, I'm sure, looking at prospects in the game. How many pro prospects do you think played in that game?

[A]

Which game?

[B]

Ohio State. Miami.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Because those are two programs where you hear your crafting a guy. From there, you're happy.

[A]

First of all, let's just go on the defensive end. We'll start with Miami. They have a freshman corner, I believe that's going to be a pro.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

The ends were incredible.

[B]

Incredible.

[A]

Bane and, and, and the other guy was, I mean, incredible. I wrote these things down, but I'm trying not to look at my phone because when I freestyle, I try not to look at my bars.

[B]

You got to open a little bit.

[A]

Then there was a kid, number eight. He was bringing the heat on the defensive end.

[B]

The whole defensive van for the Hurricanes.

[A]

They were swarming, they were flying across the field. And Ray Lewis was on the sideline, which gives you even juice. If Ray Lewis is on the sideline, you have to bring it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On the defensive end.

[B]

Greatest middle linebacker ever.

[A]

Ohio State's defense. I mean, McDonald, he's the new McDonald is the new Vince Wilfork. I'm telling you.

[B]

High priest.

[A]

I'm telling you, he's the new Wilfor. Arvel Reese, he's the next. He's Micah type. He might go 1 overall, depending on what the need. And then you got styles and who I believe is one of the smartest defensive players in college.

[B]

You're talking about first round picks.

[A]

I haven't even mentioned downs yet.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yes, yes. These are all real.

[B]

They got guys on offense who aren't even going to come out yet like Ohio State does.

[A]

And I just. You know what, we got to change that rule.

[B]

Which one?

[A]

In football, number one. It's such a high contact sport. The fact that first of all you have Tate, who probably is the best wide receiver in the nation right now.

[B]

If he's even the best wide receiver on his own team.

[A]

Yeah, but he's eligible to go out. The best who can come out. But Jeremiah Smith, hey, an embarrassment of riches for me because that's why college.

[B]

Football has retained a bigger audience than college basketball. Because you're gonna get to see Jeremiah Smith over the course of it.

[A]

And I understand why. Rule is.

[B]

And with nil now, they get paid. It's not like they're going to wind up not making money.

[A]

Yes, but here's what I'm saying. I understand why the rule is. I don't want to get the listeners confused. I get it. Because it's such a high contact sport, you can't just rush into the NFL.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But there's an exception, I believe, to every rule. And there's sometimes guys come around like Jeremiah Smith, and it always tends to happen at Ohio State. It happened before with a guy named Maurice Corrette Claret years ago, but Jeremiah Smith. Okay, I get it. We should have like two years and an option or something. And there should be like a rule where if you get the majority of votes from the NFL, that this guy.

[B]

That's interesting.

[A]

Is able to come out.

[B]

That's interesting because now you have a whole other event. You could televise that. Yeah, like a draft almost.

[A]

Because like if Jeremiah, by the way, if Jeremiah Smith was able to come out this year, he might go number one overall. Right. Because if the Giants, your Giants gets the number one pick, they have Jackson dart. Well, they won't get it. But if they did, just say a team that had a quarterback already and then you have a receiver like your Giants have Malik.

[B]

Malik, maybe. And a running back and a running boo.

[A]

And you know, if you're able to get Jeremiah Smith now you have two.

[B]

A receivers now, you might take two.

[A]

So that'd be just as good. But I'm just saying I don't know.

[B]

If it'll be just as good.

[A]

I think it'll be as good. I think. I think Carnell Tate's going to be really good now.

[B]

I think he'll be good, too. Jeremiah Smith, that's a little different.

[A]

This. I think everyone knows that. But what I'm saying, what doesn't he have? You can't be too. Don't get too cute, okay? Because you got to take what you can get. Yeah, but what I'm saying is, especially.

[B]

When they win week seven, we got.

[A]

To have like a two plus one for the, for guys like Jeremiah Smith.

[B]

I love that. I love it. And you could turn it into a televised event, turn to whatever you want as you count the votes. And like, why wouldn't. The NFL would love that? And it wouldn't even destroy college football because it's only going to be a couple of guys.

[A]

Because even as a Buckeye fan, I won't be greedy. First of all, we got the guy come from South Florida right before the Hurricanes got good. Thank God. Secondly, we already won one national championship. Thank God. Again, I'm not going to be greedy.

[B]

And at least be greedy for. I mean, for Ohio State fans. So the other. The other playoff games in college football, I thought like, halfway through the last game last night, which turned out to be a classic, I thought I was gonna come out here today and be like, well, it wasn't scintillating, but it was. Defense carried the day, right? Because Oregon, it was defense, they pitch a shutout. Miami, it was really the defense that won that game. And even Indiana, where everyone's gonna focus on the offense. Cause of Mendoza. And they were rolling offensively, but their defense was stifling. Right.

[A]

Did you think that we'd be sitting here today and Georgia and Ohio State and Alabama would be out?

[B]

I had a sneaking suspicion Alabama would pull off an upset. I'm just saying, when you think of Georgia and Ohio State would win. But let me ask you, God, I didn't say anything.

[A]

Is this good for college football? Because is the College Football Playoff paying off? In a manner of. I just named three upsets.

[B]

Not just. Not all of them upsets. When you talk about those storied franchises that, you know, once upon a time, that was Miami, but it hasn't been.

[A]

Georgia, Alabama, Ohio State, those are juggernauts of college football.

[B]

And Indiana, which is a basketball program, you know, you think Indiana, you think Hoosiers, just like.

[A]

I'm gonna tell you something, I kind.

[B]

Of like the world better, though, when, like, UCLA is basketball, USC is football.

[A]

No, but we have to.

[B]

I don't know. I'm just.

[A]

I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that.

[B]

I'm like Dana Carvey on snl.

[A]

But you but used to do a.

[B]

Character called the Grumpy Basketball.

[A]

Basketball is trying to turn around.

[B]

It is. But I like things the way they used to be.

[A]

But you know what this is about? Huh? This all goes back to Nick Saban. Nick Saban.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

The coaching tree last night, Greg Popovich of college football.

[B]

Bananas.

[A]

He is bananas. And you know where Nick Saban coached from my Browns.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

With Bill Belichick, it's amazing.

[B]

Cause Nil comes, everything changes. Nick Saban's gone. Soon as you turn around, Nil is here. Nick Saban's gone.

[A]

Well, if you notice, but his whole.

[B]

Coaching tree is dominating the top of Kyle's household.

[A]

How smart are Nick Saban and Coach K? They said, you know what? And this is the issue. When it gets to a point in a business where you can't distinguish good from great, it's probably in trouble at that point.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And Nil, they're paying guys who are good as well.

[B]

They're great.

[A]

Yeah. It takes that away. So if I'm Nick Saban, I do the same thing. But.

[B]

But he looks a lot better because of the coaching tree.

[A]

What he left behind all those guys from Kiffin to Cristobal to.

[B]

Kind of every coach yesterday.

[A]

Yeah. The other one, Signetti, everybody. All of them. Yeah. That's impressive.

[B]

But. So anyway, so halfway through the last game of the night, I'm thinking, no, that's a classic. That was a classic. Ole Miss in Georgia's a classic. But I'm thinking, okay, it's staying with the theme, because Georgia's defense is the difference in the game. I actually thought Ole Miss outplayed him in the first half, except Georgia's defense came away with two takeaways. Georgia's going to win. Here they go. They're going to start rolling. And it went from, hey, the theme of the day is defense. None of the games were great, to, oh, my God, that is an instant classic last night. And I thought, speaking of coaches, Golding, you know, when Kiffin's gone, Golding is there on fourth and three around midfield a little bit, a little bit into Georgia territory. But not only does he go for it, they come up with 36 yards. And I thought that was the. That, like, that flipped the game. That play flipped the game to me.

[A]

You have to be willing to make. To take those risks.

[B]

And then at the end, the fact that they called a safety, and I know it's like, what are the odds that they're gonna be able to lateral the ball 50,000 times and score? It's like zero, right? But I remember as a Giants fan, in 07, when the Giants are about to beat the greatest team ever, undefeated.

[A]

Patriots, does everything have to go back to the Giants?

[B]

Same reason it goes back to the Browns with you.

[A]

And that was 20 years ago. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. But you don't get to do that.

[B]

Well, I'm doing it right now.

[A]

You Have a Super Bowl.

[B]

Yeah. Two.

[A]

Right. So I get to do that.

[B]

But the point is, at the end of that game, people forget this. The Giants had this incredible win. Brady had two shots down the field at Randy Moss. And as a Giants fan, my heart was in my throat, like, oh, my God, they're gonna actually.

[A]

Who was guarding Randy Moss?

[B]

I don't. I mean, like, nobody ever guarded. Yeah. Cause he's streaking down the sideline and Brady's throwing and throw two bombs. And my point is not that that play was as likely as a pass from Brady to Moss, but I know if you're an Ole Miss fan, you're thinking, oh, man, here it comes. Like, this would be the craziest ending to a game ever.

[A]

That bothered me.

[B]

What did?

[A]

That the Giants won that super bowl because Moss didn't.

[B]

Yeah. No, it didn't bother me. It was the greatest sports moment of my life, probably.

[A]

I know for all you Giants fans, I have a lot of friends that's Giants fans from New York, Trinidad Chambliss.

[B]

Man.

[A]

Player. Yeah. Player. Yes. But see, even though Lane Kiffin left, the culture didn't leave. Okay? The confidence from the coach to the players, those kids still believe no one's checked out. Everyone's locked in. That says a lot.

[B]

Even the fact that Kiffin left. Like, that's a college football rules problem. That's not. Like, if you have certain dates at which certain people will be available where you have. Like, why, of course he's. Of course the coaches are gonna leave.

[A]

The coach just said. Was it Oregon's coach who said what? Exactly what you just said. He said we should not. We should roll right into the college playoffs.

[B]

Right. And then do the game.

[A]

And the last game should be January 1st. And then you don't have all these issues with the coaches.

[B]

Of course. Like, everyone got mad at Lane Kiffin when he is. If you set up the rules to a game, people will exploit them. It's no different than these. Like when the NBA came up with the gather step, and then you can take two steps. The result is this ridicul where guys are driving to the basket, hopping back three steps, claiming it's legal. They'll exploit the rules.

[A]

Yes, but Lane Kiffin hit the lottery. We cannot expect him to walk around with the ticket in his pocket.

[B]

Of course. Of course.

[A]

And I don't think anybody that plays the lottery. When your number comes out, you're going to cash it.

[B]

Yeah, I got the mega millions, but I'm just gonna wait.

[A]

I'm gonna wait around what are you talking about?

[B]

The point is, incentives shape behavior. And if the incentives of a game are set up a certain way, then guess what? Guys will try to draw walks, even though that wasn't the point of balls and strikes. Guys who try to draw fouls.

[A]

Drawing fouls in the NBA all the time.

[B]

And people will exploit the rules of the game for their own benefit. Of course. Of course. I don't know why anyone was mad at Lane Kiffin.

[A]

Can't be mad at Lane Kiffin.

[B]

Hate the player, don't hate the game. But excuse me, that's a Freudian slip. Reverse that. Go ahead.

[A]

Hate the game, don't hate the player. Yes, but I'm not so sure that the soil isn't still rich at Ole Miss.

[B]

It is, obviously.

[A]

Yeah. So obviously. So it's a win. Win. Everybody wins.

[B]

Game over is brought to you by FanDuel. FanDuel's putting you in control of right from tip off. That's right. You get to choose your reward. Play it safe, go for it. Feeling bold. That's your move. Whatever your style, you're in control no matter how you play. FanDuel's giving you the power to choose your reward and own your game this NBA season. Head to FanDuel.com gameover to make your pick. Get in the game and play it your way. 21 and over and present in select states are 18 and over and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required rewards are non withdrawable. Restrictions apply including bonus and token expiration, leg requirements and max wager amount. See [e-mail] gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic what are you most looking forward to this weekend in the NFL? Because there are two. Like everyone's talking like, I'm Raven Stillers.

[A]

I'm Raven. Steelers 100%.

[B]

Me too. That's the number one game.

[A]

I'm Raven Steelers. That's the number one game all day long.

[B]

So we can start there because Panthers, Bucks, neither one of those teams has a shot to win the Super Bowl. I don't care what happens. I don't care. Like people are making it like it's. I mean, if you live in Tampa, you live in Carolina. Okay, I get it. But otherwise, come on, let's not kid ourselves.

[A]

You see, I have to look at this is my setup.

[B]

Even though Ravens, Steelers might not win either. But that's A traditional rivalry that's different.

[A]

Than Panthers, Ravens, Steelers might not win the Super Bowl. You say Super Bowl, I'm not worried about. Forget that.

[B]

Lamar Jackson healthy. They have a shot.

[A]

We have to go week and they'll get Metcalf back.

[B]

So we have to go week by week.

[A]

Ravens, Stillers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sunday.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, now what time they play? I don't know.

[B]

What is that? What time is that game?

[A]

Gemini. Oh, we don't have Gemini.

[B]

Yeah, we don't have Gemini. It's a night game. Of course. Of course. Of course.

[A]

Great. It's a night game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that. That is great for me because here's my Sunday. I have to wake up. I had to do a core workout.

[B]

Pilates. What do you do?

[A]

Pilates.

[B]

That's what I do. I got herniated discs or had. Got to do Pilates. Great core work.

[A]

I've done hot Pilates sometimes, but I do like a core circuit.

[B]

But so core. You got the little hats.

[A]

I've been asked to go to Pilates, but really quick. So then I have to do that. If it's nice out. I make him get me around a nine in.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Calls have to call. And I have to check the NBA schedule because now we're getting to that space where NBA is on every weekend. I probably will only watch one football game this Sunday. I'll skim over the. When does the 49ers and Seahawks play Sunday too?

[B]

You're asking me for times. Here's my Sunday. I'll just like that you went through your Sunday. I'm gonna wake up, I'm gonna turn on the tv. I'm gonna keep it on football all day long. That's all. That's my Sunday plans.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's it.

[A]

But see, yeah, I used to could do that. But when the NBA is on, I.

[B]

Know it gets tougher.

[A]

I have to watch NBA. And then also we're at that time.

[B]

When you, me and Simmons are texting. You guys always have like, all of a sudden I'll get a text from Simmons about something that's happened in the NBA in the middle of like a big NFL game.

[A]

Yeah, because you gotta have. I know you guys have. You have to different tv and you have to have TV on and then other TV on.

[B]

I try to follow stuff on my phone, but I'm watching my big screen. The game that I'm watching, do you.

[A]

Watch it on YouTube TV?

[B]

Yeah. And Prime. Because I need, you know, to get the NBA and NFL.

[A]

Okay, but then what about. Damn, I have to go to lior for brunch too. So I gotta fit that all in.

[B]

Gotta fit it all in. You're gonna have to be Paul. Checking.

[A]

I don't even play Paul's. But I'm just saying.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

We gotta be careful when we say these type of things. I don't. I'm not only do that on other people's platforms, but I just know that they're watching and I don't want. Cause you gotta understand something. Every now and then I get a call.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

From Mason Cam.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I just wanna be careful when we say stuff.

[B]

So that's great. That's. They have a great show. They got a great show.

[A]

They have a great show.

[B]

They have a great show.

[A]

I don't wanna say that too loud.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Because, I mean, no lunch, no nothing. These guys. It's all good. It's all good.

[B]

Listen, anyway, so we could start with Raven Steelers. Let me tell you something. This could be like the which coach stays bowl because you know, there's buzz that either Harbaugh. Which coach stays. That Harbaugh and Tomlin maybe are getting a little stale. Okay, Rich, let me start by saying if it's me and I'm the Ravens, I'm not letting Harbaugh go anywhere. I'm obviously not going to let Mike Tomlinson go anywhere from the Steelers.

[A]

Let me ask you this question.

[B]

However, if you fire. I'm not the Ravens or Steelers.

[A]

Just let me ask you this question. If you fire Mike Tomlin and or Harbaugh, who are you hiring?

[B]

You're preaching to the choir, I guess.

[A]

When I say who says no, who says no?

[B]

Who are you hiring better than those guys for those franchises?

[A]

I will wait.

[B]

So there's a lot on the line here. And you know, when the jets three, four years ago were looking for a quarterback, everyone was like, oh, you gotta give up all this draft capital for Rogers. And I was doing a show called this just in at the time on espn and I remember saying at the time, like Rogers, he's 100 years old. He's not as good as he used to be. You have to give up all this stuff for Rogers. But Lamar Jackson's having a contract dispute basically with the Ravens. He's young. You have a young nucleus on the jets and you can grow together. Why would you target Rodgers instead of Lamar Jackson? Right. And Lamar Jackson's won the MVP since then and everything. And another one. And now these two guys, because Lamar is going to play, are facing each other maybe, whether rightly or wrongly. Rich maybe with their coaches futures on the line.

[A]

Could be. No, but it could be. Whether we like it or not. Okay. Let's just say could be. I don't think so, but whatever. But going back to your point about the jets, you can't be upset about the jets not going after Lamar because sometimes this happens, especially in free agency.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Sometimes a guy like Lamar Jackson, right, he's a free agent kind of, but not kind of.

[B]

He ain't really gonna go after.

[A]

Not even so much as that will Baltimore really allow him to get away from them? Doing those type of deals are the hardest deals to do. Because you would think like, oh, that's why they put it in free agency. It's like, well, you have a restricted. In restricted free agency, they give you a certain amount of time and most of these guys that become restricted are top picks, et cetera. But they never get an offer sheet. Offer sheets are so hard to get in the NBA because the other team is not trying to waste his time. So you have to look at, okay, where their salary is. You got to look at, you know, their spending.

[B]

In the case of Lamar, though, history that was getting. Coming to it to head.

[A]

Yeah. Now, now. And that's if I'm the Jets, I'm.

[B]

At least going to try to throw a line out, see what happens.

[A]

Here's the thing. In football, it may be different in basketball. I'm just saying to get an offer sheet during free agency for a talent of the level of a Lamar Jackson is come few and far in between.

[B]

I mean, they did it to Jeremy Lynn when he was like, if you're in New York, you didn't want to.

[A]

Let him walk away. That's the talent of Lamar Jackson.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm looking at this game. The Steelers won't have Metcalf because of the injury.

[A]

That sucks.

[B]

Gainwell is actually Roger's best receiver. I mean, sorry, because of the suspension. Two game suspension. Pardon me. Two game suspension. Gainwell's actually Rogers best receiver out of the backfield.

[A]

It's going to be all about the defense.

[B]

It ain't MVS if the, if the.

[A]

Steelers defense is all about the defense. Don't even. I know they have Rogers. I know the Metcalf situation gang well. But at the end of the day, this game for the Steelers is about their defense.

[B]

I don't know. I think, I think it's. I agree, I agree it is about the defense, but not the way maybe people think. Like if you look at Tomlin, who's never had a Losing season. And that goes through eras where he didn't have a quarterback when he didn't have a defense. Like this idea. I think there's this idea of Tomlin. He's kind of put in a box of a rah Rah coach. Oh, he's the best rah rah coach. Right.

[A]

There's no rah Rah, but.

[B]

Well, there is. There is. Like, he's very much a coach that you would run through a brick wall for. Like, you could see it when he's at the podium. Right.

[A]

But I call that, like, he's like a motivator. He's somebody.

[B]

That's what I mean.

[A]

Rah rah is like rah rah to me is like playing to rah rah. Because your coaching skill set isn't that great.

[B]

But I think there is a perception of Tomlin that there's something like that going on. And he.

[A]

Hold on.

[B]

Who?

[A]

This is Tyronn Liu. Let me make sure. Ronnie Liu. I'm shooting my show. You wanna do lunch? I'm almost done. I just wanted to make sure you wasn't calling me with any important information.

[B]

Six in a row.

[A]

He's won six in a row.

[B]

Six in a row. It's looking pretty good right now.

[A]

I know what you mean.

[B]

Why you score so why can score 40 every game?

[A]

Tell Max. What? Tell Max. Way to have my back. Cause I know Rich don't. That's a lot. That's not. Now. Why do you treat me like. You know what? Goodbye, man. Goodbye. Goodbye.

[B]

Listen, first of all, I never thought the Clippers, the way they were looking early, was going to roll. Were going to roll.

[A]

Let's not get off subject. Stillers.

[B]

Kawhi is going crazy.

[A]

But I don't like Ty Luke treating me like that. But he always.

[B]

Okay, wait. So hold on. So Tomlin. I'm saying. I'm not saying that I think this about him. I'm saying I think he's put in that box by. There's a perception of him that the way he wins games is by motivating the players. What I'm saying is there's no way a guy who has overseen. He's been the coach for all this time. At times where you're an offensive team with no defense, at times where you're a defensive team with no offense, at times where you have some of both.

[A]

Like, which goes back to my point. You cannot fire this guy. But go ahead.

[B]

Okay, Right. So. But if their job, one of their jobs is on the line here, think about where Tomlin is right now where last week against the Browns, the game plan was clearly, don't let Myles Garrett get to Aaron Rodgers. Right. It was clear.

[A]

I don't know if that was the overall. That was part of the game.

[B]

If I am planning for the Browns, I think that's a very good idea. Miles Garrett acted like someone was trying to stop him from getting the sack record. But, yes, you are trying to stop one of the best pass rushers who ever lived from getting to your ancient quarterback, who, by the way, looks like he doesn't like to get hit anymore.

[A]

Like, let's be honest, I wouldn't like to get hit by myles Garrett.

[B]

You're 40 something years old.

[A]

To Miles Garrett, just like walking down a sidewalk. I wouldn't even.

[B]

That's a big deal.

[A]

Listen, Miles, don't even bump me. Don't do anything. When I see Miles, I'm like, miles, what's up, bro? Good. Cause even if he shakes your hand like somebody like myself. No, I told you what happened when Bo Jackson shook my hand that one time. Oh, yeah.

[B]

So it's like, you ever see the Flintstones, old Flintstones things where Bam, Bam would shake someone's hand and pick them up off the ground. And that's what Myles Garrett, shaking your head. Rich Paul's going up off the ground.

[A]

To be that big of a guy with that agility, crazy is. I mean, this guy is.

[B]

So it's a good idea for Tomlin to try to stop him now, going into this game. What is. But. But in winning the battle, he lost the war. Now, I have a sneaking suspicion. So you can overthink things, and it's pretty basic. Stop Myles Garrett from killing Aaron Rodgers. Okay, you did that. You did that, but you lost.

[A]

Well, that would help you. That will help you at least have a better offensive chance, efficiency rating, that's for sure.

[B]

In this game, what's the story? Lamar is compromised. Right. And in the playoffs anyway, they're like, we'll make Lamar beat you. And the conventional wisdom would be, stop who? On the Ravens. What's the name?

[A]

Derrick Henry.

[B]

Derrick Henry. Stop Derrick Henry. So if I'm Harbaugh, I am planning to counter Tomlin's moves to stop Derrick Henry. Hold on. To stop Derrick Henry. Right. What I'm saying is Tomlin just learned the lesson that you can win the battle and lose the war. I wonder if he's not putting a wrinkle in his game plan right now that he doesn't need to win that battle. He can lose that battle with Derrick Henry and still win the war. I know Lamar's compromised. You want him to try to beat you anyway in the playoffs. He hasn't done great. Derrick Henry's a juggernaut. I get all that. But I give Tomlin more credit than just being a motivator of guys.

[A]

Well, listen, I don't know if it's a wrinkle. I think you just have to prepare your defense to go out and win a ball game. But the question I was going to ask you is how many touches should Derrick Henry get in this game?

[B]

Infinity. Like they need.

[A]

So you said. Because, you know, back in the day, a guy would have 36 carries, Jerome Bettis would have 36 carries.

[B]

And Derrick Henry is not just a great running back, he's a clutch running back. Like, we have seen Derrick Henry through a playoff series, put up record breaking numbers, even when everybody knew, here's what's coming, let's try to stop it. And they couldn't stop it. Right. We've seen him do that. So you're gonna feed Derrick Henry, obviously, Right? Obviously.

[A]

Well, so who do you have winning? I gotta put you on the spot.

[B]

I should take. Because. No, Metcalf. I should take Baltimore. I just feel like now we're. This is. This is the playoffs starting now for these teams, because there is no playoffs for the loser. So these teams both know what's ahead of them. We need to win five games to win the Super Bowl. And so the way your guy. LeBron. LeBron.

[A]

Who do you have winning?

[B]

I'm answering LeBron.

[A]

LeBron has nothing to do with it.

[B]

He does. You'll see.

[A]

No, he does not.

[B]

LeBron.

[A]

We can't keep going back to LeBron. He has nothing to do with this.

[B]

He doesn't play defense in the regular season.

[A]

That's not true.

[B]

Because.

[A]

Listen, hold up, wait a minute.

[B]

Because he's saving his defense for high leverage moments, right? So if the game's on the line, he'll play defense in the playoffs, he'll play defense in high leverage moments. But he's 41 years old.

[A]

You know what?

[B]

He can't score 20 and play defense.

[A]

That's a fair point. Because I get on him about not boxing out.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

Not playing. But that's smart. But I've always got him.

[B]

And by the way. But that's smart of him because by the way, you do everything.

[A]

Keith Dambrot would also do the same thing. So he knows what he's doing.

[B]

But what I'm saying is Aaron Rodgers is in that category. He's 40 plus years old.

[A]

Why does it have to take you so long to say who do you have winning?

[B]

The answer is the Pittsburgh steals.

[A]

You're no longer on linear steals tv. Get to the point.

[B]

The answer is the Pittsburgh Steelers.

[A]

Pittsburgh Steelers. So we can move on. You got the Steelers.

[B]

I like to reveal.

[A]

No, we don't have to do that. Yes, I'm moving pick the Steelers.

[B]

And the reason is I think Aaron Rodgers at his age has five games ahead of him where he knows as much as he didn't like to get hit in the regular season, his old bones and all that.

[A]

Why do people care about that? You picked a still.

[B]

He is going to do the best version of Aaron Rodgers here on out and I think he and Mike Tomlin can make a run if they win this game and I think they will, even though Baltimore should be favored here.

[A]

It took you 15 minutes to say the Steelers.

[B]

What about Niners and we need to.

[A]

Bring our whiteboard back.

[B]

I like the whiteboard.

[A]

Yeah, me too. I don't know whose decision was it to take our whiteboard away. And you know who else?

[B]

Yours, I think.

[A]

No, it wasn't.

[B]

I think you said you didn't like.

[A]

Doing it in the beginning. No, I did not say that. You know who else likes the whiteboard? The people.

[B]

All right.

[A]

We need to bring it back.

[B]

Bring the whiteboard back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Niners, Seahawks is the only other game I'm really interested in this weekend because.

[A]

Both can win the super bowl if they get there. I think the.

[B]

I don't think the Niners can with that defense.

[A]

But here's what I'm saying.

[B]

If they had their defensive guys, if they had both, like if they had their guys.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not. If this was a. If this was a battery.

[B]

Right.

[A]

100% means they can definitely win the super bowl. Charged. Fully charged. I think both for the Seahawks and the Niners is probably like 20% charged and it could be 40% if. For the Seahawks if Darnold plays.

[B]

That's the. So that's what I was getting consistently. Darnold is the key to the Seahawks. They have a Super bowl roster. They have a coach, I think that can win the Super Bowl.

[A]

They have a really good defense.

[B]

They have an excellent defense, but they have an offense, too. They have a quarterback who is J's boom or bust Boomer bus quarterback.

[A]

I'm sorry, what's that? I just said his name wrong. But another Ohio State Buckeye.

[B]

But.

[A]

Jsn.

[B]

But yeah, for sure. But Boomer bust quarterback means he Must. Boom. And he has no more chances to bust. Right. Like, okay, this game. He doesn't have to be perfect because they're in the playoffs anyway. It's a matter of seating.

[A]

He has to play well for consecutive weeks.

[B]

Not just one or two, though.

[A]

I know I said consecutive.

[B]

And it's not a bad idea.

[A]

He has to play well.

[B]

He hasn't done that all season. He has not strung even three games together where it's like, oh, that's good.

[A]

Sam, darling, I want to see you under center on an NFL Sunday.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

Because you get up here and act like this stuff is just easy to do. Oh, he hasn't done well. I want to see you under center.

[B]

Hell, no.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

By the way, Dan Orlovsky ran out of the end zone as a professional quarterback and is like the best analyst on tv.

[A]

Like, you know, you know what, Dan? That was smart. Because I like. Because I like listening to Dan.

[B]

Yeah. And he ran out of the end zone.

[A]

He's a smart guy, and he might not be as smart as.

[B]

What's that got to do with what he has to say about football?

[A]

So who do you ask, Steelers or Seahawks?

[B]

You mean Seahawks or Niners?

[A]

I'm sorry? Seahawks or Niners?

[B]

I'm going to take the Niners in this game.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm going to take them in this game. Who do you have?

[A]

I'm going Seahawks.

[B]

What about Pittsburgh and Baltimore?

[A]

Browns?

[B]

Pittsburgh or Baltimore? Who's going to win?

[A]

Browns.

[B]

Yeah. What else? What else? That's the only. The only other thing from the. From the NFL weekend is I'm curious as to whether McVay plays guys because they don't need to win the game. Technically, it doesn't really do anything for them. The Rams. But the Rams. And you and I have been to some Rams games this year in your box and living room. Right, right. The living room away from home.

[A]

Box is great. I ain't on front.

[B]

It is in your suite.

[A]

Box is fantastic. I wish the super bowl was in LA every year because of that box.

[B]

We could see, like you could see from the beginning is when they beat the Texans. When they beat. They had a bunch of big wins, huge on third down, their defense, Matthew Stafford's balling out, the whole thing, but not just because they lost last week. I mean, that could happen in the NFL. They've been kind of trending down. And if I'm McVeigh, I need to. I want to get my guys back in the swing of things before the playoffs.

[A]

I think. Yeah, that's important. But I will give you a pick. I think the Ravens win on Sunday. I got Ravens, Seahawks. You have Steelers, Niners.

[B]

Niners. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so we'll on Monday, we'll recap.

[B]

Seahawks should win, but I just have a feeling about that Brock Purdy.

[A]

No, you made your pick.

[B]

Brock Purdy's been great.

[A]

This is pro linebacker TJ Watt and.

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[A]

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50% off regular price for new customers. Upfront payment required $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy. See terms. We were talking about Tomlin and Harley.

[A]

Who'S not being fired, so forget about it.

[B]

And both those guys are big culture guys. And you sent me a clip from. What was that?

[A]

TikTok.

[B]

I don't know. Get Tik. I don't have TikTok. So it must have been an IG clip, right, of Sark talking about culture. And you wanted to talk about culture because like Harbaugh and Tomlin certainly culture guys, right?

[A]

Yeah. Well, I didn't necessarily want to talk about culture. I just thought it was an important topic that he was focused on.

[B]

What was it about what he said that you liked?

[A]

Because the thing about it was he's basically saying it can't be an advertisement. It has to actually be a seed planted in the foundation of whether it's a university or whether it's an organization, et cetera. And I agree with that. I think before anything you can remember when the warriors had strength in numbers, that mattered and that was real. And when you talk about the Ole Miss coach and that decision that he made, golden to go on 4th and 3 and they got 36 yards instead, those Type of decisions, in my opinion, goes back to your culture. When they decided to no longer start David Lee and started Andre Aguadala, that goes to your culture. That led to a championship. When.

[B]

How does that go to culture?

[A]

Well, your culture, when you have a culture set right. When Popovich decided to bring Ginobili off the bench, we all know he could have started anywhere. Those guys, because of the culture, they don't lash out. They don't make it about themselves. They don't make it. They make it about the team. And that has everything to do with the culture that you have in place. That, hey, we are here as a team to win. We are here for everybody to do what it takes to win. Everybody to play a role and embrace a role. And when you have that. And it's not just a marketing campaign, it's actually that.

[B]

Not just on a T shirt, but it's actually. You're actually doing it.

[A]

When you actually walk in the building and you feel that that says something. And now what that allows you to do, it allows you to take chances. When you look at going back to the spurs, right, they took a chance. They brought Dennis Rodman into that culture. Right. They also brought.

[B]

Everyone's talked about taking a chance. People said that before the Bulls got Dennis Rodman. What chance are you taking that you're going to be great? Like.

[A]

But back then, it was all the antics, it was the wow.

[B]

But I'm just saying, I wish the Knicks would have taken a chance on Dennis.

[A]

Yeah. But here you go with your New York teams. But even in a situation like who we talking about? Oh, they brought Stephen Jackson, and he won a championship with the Spurs. Same thing. You can do that in Golden State. You can even do that in an organization like Miami, because you get there and yeah, they talk about the body fat and all that, but that's not what's important. What's important is, no matter what your jacket says, when you come here, it's about the Miami Heat.

[B]

But you know what I think is the key to building that culture? What I look for is will you reinforce your culture on everybody?

[A]

On everybody. Number one.

[B]

And when it's inconvenient to do it right, like, will you do it? Teddy Atlas talks about Mike Tyson when he was in Catskill, when he was a kid coming up in Catskill. And there was a time when one of the kids who lived. Cause they all lived in that house with Customato, all the amateur fighters. And not all of them were gonna be serious pros. Mike was. But there were other kids. Like, one guy worked at a gas station, right? And there was enough food for everyone to have their dinner. Mike finished his food. He wanted more. But that was being saved for the kid who worked at the gas station, right? And Customato, who talked a big game about, like, doing things the right way. Like, you have to put your principles before, like, what's convenient. But he thought Mike was gonna be a heavyweight champ, and he wanted to give Mike what he wanted. And he gave in and was like, just take it. And so Mike ate the other kid's dinner, right? And those little. It's like these small moments where you're weak about because you didn't enforce the culture when it was inconvenient.

[A]

That. That could have been a difference in Mike training a certain way when he.

[B]

Fought Buster Douglas or even outside the ring stuff where he got in trouble. The point is, when you have. What I look for when you talk about that type of stuff, is will the team do something that's, in the short term, bad for them, but they have to. Like, for example, the Lakers culture right now, they let Luka just do whatever he wants. That's the example. There's an example, right? On a Pat Riley team, would that happen? Spoelstra, would you think they would treat him that way? Or on the spurs, would that happen?

[A]

This guy is just gonna.

[B]

Let's be honest. All right. You also sent me something else I wanted to talk about because I'm just curious. What, like, you were thinking about what.

[A]

I was talking about today's NBA.

[B]

Yes. You sent me a list of five names.

[A]

No, because you were sending me. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

[B]

Steve Francis, Penny Hardaway, Nick Van Exel, Derrick Rose, Gilbert Arenas.

[A]

Tim Hardaway, too. Forget about Tim Hardaway.

[B]

Tim Hardaway.

[A]

Tim Hard.

[B]

Don't bring up Tim Hardaway. The Knicks went after Chris Childs instead of Tim Hardaway. It killed me.

[A]

No, because you were. You were talking about the lead. You were singing something good, and it just sparked something. But before we get to that, why isn't Kevin Durant's name in the MVP race? Do you see what he's doing?

[B]

I think that kd. I know what you mean. Because he's on a team with a great young player, and he's making that work in a way that. I see what you mean. And you're not going to get credit for, like, there's only X number of points you're going to score. There's one ball. There are only so many possessions. So when there's some Sacrifice made by an all time great in order to make the whole team better. A lot of times their stats will be. Their counting stats will be a little off.

[A]

Why does the American all time greats get penalized for still being great?

[B]

Why is he getting penalized for it though?

[A]

He's not getting the recognition. He's not like, what do you mean? Do you see his numbers?

[B]

Yeah, but what are his counting numbers right now? What's he averaging?

[A]

27.

[B]

Yeah, but it's not like 91% from.

[A]

The free throw line.

[B]

See, the percentage numbers are going to be great.

[A]

I think he's 46 or 48% from 3.

[B]

Yeah, crazy.

[A]

Like, come on, man. Like, all I'm saying is Kawhi last.

[B]

Year averaging 40 for like a week now. Yeah.

[A]

Like, these guys, this is what I'm talking about. These guys come into a league, they give it everything. I mean, everything. You would say, oh, we're paying him a lot of money. And so it's just at the end of the day, we cannot just skip over what all these guys are doing. Not just. I'm talking about all of them. It's. To me, I just, I just, I don't want to go to the.

[B]

Okay, if you would vote right now, would you vote KD as the MVP so far this season? Now Jokic is. No, it would be Jokic, but he's hurt.

[A]

I'm saying. But what I'm saying is I can't even sit here and tell you that, oh, KD is thinking about winning the mvp.

[B]

I'm not saying that, but what I'm.

[A]

Saying is I would have his name in the mvp. Yes, I would.

[B]

I agree. His name should be there.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But ultimately, if you don't think he's.

[A]

Gonna win it, it don't matter. You have to recognize, like, people, people. I used to go to my grandmother's house when I finally moved out. Not finally, I moved out when I was right away. But the trash comes out on Tuesday. And every Tuesday I would leave my apartment and I would go and take my grandmother's trash out because I recognized the fact that she's an older lady who's wanted. Yeah. In this case, from a basketball perspective, these guys are. It's admirable when we just talked about getting to the mountaintop and not recognizing, maybe not caring as much as you should, so on and so forth. When a guy do care as much, we have to give them the right.

[B]

That's why I'm saying, and he made.

[A]

All the money and all that, and they still care.

[B]

The reason that KD's counting numbers. A lot of people look at counting numbers. How many points did he like? What's his scoring average? Or the. Instead of the percentage numbers counting you, he. KD has sacrificed because he's playing with. What are we saying? Are we saying sengun? Because that's how I hear him saying.

[A]

What I'm saying is.

[B]

So those sacrifices will probably cost him MVP votes, even though it should be the opposite.

[A]

No, no, it don't cost him mvp.

[B]

Listen, a guy like in reality, I'm saying.

[A]

Rich, here's what I'm saying. We get into this thing where you feel like a guy had to score 40. I see guys score 40 and guess what? It's a meaningless 40, right?

[B]

No, no, no, wait.

[A]

It's a meaningless 40.

[B]

What I'm saying is the reality of who's the most valuable is KD should be there because he's not averaging 35 points. Because he's doing that because he's playing with other good players and he's trying to win.

[A]

All I'm saying is.

[B]

But I'm saying the reality of MVP voters is a lot of people will look at the counting numbers and say, well, 27 points, this guy's averaging 33. But it should be the opposite. Well, first penalized for what he should give credit.

[A]

We need to change all this, all NBA voting. We need to change a lot of stuff with that. But nevertheless, we're going to miss these guys when they're gone. That's all I'm saying. But let's get to this list.

[B]

All right. Why did you send me Francis? Both Hardaways, Van Exel, Derrick Rose and Agent Zell.

[A]

Well, because we were talking about where would these guys fare in today's NBA.

[B]

I think they'd all do well. I mean, like, they're all. They were all pretty good free throw shooters.

[A]

Good with Steve Francis.

[B]

Insane. Yeah, for a little while. For about three, four, five years.

[A]

Oh. But guess what? And I'm gonna tell you something. Steve Francis was a star at Maryland, right? I used to fly home when Maryland was coming on.

[B]

Why did you. But why these guys? Why did you.

[A]

Because I thought those guys. I was just thinking about just so many teams that could use a great point guard. Right? I thought, like in Steve Francis case, I mean, he had the handle, he had the athleticism, he had the finishing skills.

[B]

I think a lot of these guys will be underrated by history because.

[A]

Well, let me get through it. Hold on.

[B]

Let me get through it. Yeah.

[A]

Go. Go. Nick Van Exel. Another guy. All right. Right. This is what I'm saying. Nick Van Exel. Nick Van Exel today averages 28. 28.

[B]

And shoots the three better.

[A]

Shoots the three. We know what Derrick Rose would do. Getting down. He wasn't too far removed. Gilbert. The reason why I like Gilbert, because we put so much emphasis on the three ball and where you're shooting the three from. Now, Gilbert was shooting the three from 40ft out in Doche and Gabbana sneakers.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know how crazy you gotta be to wear Dolce and Gabbana sneakers in an NBA game. He did it. And he was shooting the three from that far out. And then the last one, Penny Hardaway. And this is where I.

[B]

But that's just injury, really.

[A]

No, no, but I. But what I'm about to say is Penny is on and off the court because Penny as a player, forget about it. We all know what he could do.

[B]

I mean, there was a time in the NBA he was the best fan. A moment where it looked like if you couldn't have Michael Jordan. You wanted Penny Hardaway.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Just for a moment, it looked that way.

[A]

Yes. Give me Penny Hardaway. And he had some of the flyest shoes and commercials. Penny Hardaway had really. I know people gonna get on me for saying this, but Penny's brand was incredible.

[B]

It was incredible.

[A]

I think, oh, my God, man. Penny.

[B]

Because sometimes. Because it wasn't even about what he was doing, it was about what you thought was coming. Like, Penny was still on the way up. He was going to get better than he was. They never really saw the best of him.

[A]

They asked me a question, if there was a player I could represent that I never represented, like, who would be that dream guy? And I said, Allen Iverson. I'm still saying Allen Iverson. Because when I think about that, I think about who can I build a business with? Cause it's hard to do it with any player. The other one is I have to add Penny Hardaway there because Penny Hardaway had the opportunity to build, I do believe, a billion dollar business. And I think people get brand and IP and nil. I think they get all that confused, you know, because how many true brands in sports do you think there have been, like, true brands? And what do you.

[B]

In sports.

[A]

In sports, when I. Yeah. Cause I look at. I want to know how you look.

[B]

At it from a brand perspective. Through the era where that meant something. There have been brands in sports that were not monetized because of the.

[A]

No, I'm talking about a monetization perspective.

[B]

Obviously, MJ is number one.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Kobe was monetized, like, and had a real brand. LeBron has a real brand. NBA guy's probably easiest to.

[A]

To do it because they're not playing in a helmet and.

[B]

Right. No question. And because they have more influence on the outcome of a game because there are fewer players on the floor. You can run every player, but do.

[A]

You think it's only basketball? You think it's only play driven?

[B]

No, it's more than play driven. But it's based on the play. It's based on the play. And if they did something, how much of Steph as a brand?

[A]

How much of a percentage?

[B]

Is it based on the play?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Over 50% is based on your play.

[A]

And how much is based on your partner?

[B]

Okay. I think less than you're going to say because Steph, the four guys I just mentioned, almost no matter what, would have had huge brands because they did something. With the exception of Kobe, who just looked like you squinted it. That's Michael Jordan. Right. So that was already there. And then it was again. We didn't want to let go of it. We didn't have to. But Steph and LeBron both did new things. So who else changed the game like that? That isn't a big brand. See, and that would suggest to me, it's not about your partner as much as it is about. I mean, you're like shoe company that you work with or ever as much as it is about what you did on the.

[A]

See, when I think about brand, yes, I think about play. But the most important thing is it's very hard to say my brand if your brand hasn't become a business. So that's the way I look at it. We know what Michael's business became. What at $4 billion business. Right. If. And continuing to grow. LeBron, obviously at the height, I think LeBron's business was probably 6, $700 million. I'm talking about annually. Yes. And I think this is where kids get it confused. And I think athletes, most athletes get confused. 99.9% of athletes don't have a business off the court.

[B]

Don't have a brand.

[A]

I'm saying their brand is what they perceive as a brand, is not a business. You have an endorsement portfolio. But when you have a business, here's how it works. Max Kellerman, you're the athlete. Okay. I see your potential. I'm paying you to start. I'm going to pay you. Shoe deals are so much different today, but I'm just going to go I'm gonna pay you $3 million. Sold today.

[B]

Oh, sorry.

[A]

Good. $3 million today, over four years. Well, if I really believe we can do a business with you, I'm gonna pay you that over probably a little bit more. But your first deal will be, like, six or seven years, because it takes 18 months for us to put.

[B]

Should I take it? Should I take this deal?

[A]

Well, we'll talk about that later. It takes 18 months to put a real strategy together. If we really believe right, then your play, your market, more importantly your character, your willingness to cooperate. Now, your partner does matter, because the product matters. So we're only. So to start. We're only starting with footwear. You're not getting all this other stuff yet.

[B]

We got Iverson Shack. There are a couple other brands to get. Yeah, sorry.

[A]

Yeah. But Iverson's. I'm talking about business. I don't know what. I don't know what.

[B]

I'm just thinking of athletes with brands.

[A]

Yes. AI had a real. AI had a real brand. I don't know what. I don't know. AI's business probably was a little bit bigger than Barkley. Barkley has some of the. Barkley probably had the best shoes in.

[B]

All of them and always had a huge personality. And, you know.

[A]

And then Shaq was a little bit different because he decided to sell Biggs.

[B]

Don't sell sneakers anyway, but.

[A]

Well, Shaq did. Shaq was a big. That sold sneakers, at least his first. The Kamikazes. But nevertheless. So now you get into that part and you have the product, right? Then they decide, okay, how many colorways you gonna have to start? You may only have, like, 8 to 12. And then within that 8 to 12, they do what you call, like, energy strikes. So in your energy strikes, you make. You're gonna have a smaller skew of those.

[B]

Explain that. What do you mean, energy strikes?

[A]

So an energy strike may be. I sit with you and you say, man, I want the Giant's colorway, right? That goes out that Giant's colorway to drive energy. But it's not really a retail colorway that you want to have from a mass spectacle.

[B]

So that's like the taste makers.

[A]

Yes, it's only. But. But it's driving influencers. Yeah, it's driving energy. Then you do storytelling around certain things. So now that goes over well. So they invested. So they. They invested 4. 4 million over, you know, six years. That's 24 million. Now in that span of that one year, you did. Let's just say you did 80 million.

[B]

You got Me an extra million a year there. I appreciate that.

[A]

You did, you did, you did. 80 million. Right. That now gives them the data to say, okay, the market can use, expand.

[B]

The colorways and all this kind of stuff.

[A]

Okay. But with that, we also need umax to do more. Right, right. So now they bring in the marketing team. You know, this year we're gonna spend a little. We're gonna spend money, more money on print, we're gonna spend more, we're gonna do an actual spot, we're gonna put you in a spot, depending on, et cetera. So now it has to grow now.

[B]

So at that moment. So, okay, the first. The fact that you get a deal at all means you've separated yourself from a lot of people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

This is almost like getting to the second deal in sports, like in the NFL. Right. So the second deal is. Okay, you have succeeded in doing this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Now we're gonna expand the colorways, we're gonna grow it, and you now have to do more to push everything.

[A]

You have to do more to push everything.

[B]

So that's kind of like your second contract plateau.

[A]

But here's what comes with that. See, what people don't understand is most athletes and most people around the athlete, they want to focus on a transaction. You have to build equity.

[B]

Equity relationships and. Equity.

[A]

Yeah, equity. Equity. And what happens is now this is what they're. This is what they're watching. Okay, now here comes year two. You have more. I remember vividly, we have to go to China this year for what?

[B]

Just billion and a half people there.

[A]

That's what China has more basketball courts than we have schools in America. And you play outside. So there's an ability to build a different type of shoe that is a little bit more durable and things like that, which is a whole separate market. But stay with me. So you have the Asia Pacific market. So now you're going to China. Now when are they asking you to go dead smack in the middle of summer after you came off summer league.

[B]

You tired, you think you get a little break? Yep. Nope.

[A]

Nope. But this is part of it. So when you are. When you have a shoe deal, that's one thing. Most athletes coming out, they're going to get a shoe deal. Then you have what you call a pe, which you get to the place of like a Player edition, where they kind of put your logo on it or whatever and do some colorways, et cetera. Then you get to the signature part, if you are able to get to the signature shoe.

[B]

Signature athlete. Yeah.

[A]

This is where you could possibly build a business. Now, every athlete wants a signature shoe. It's not in the cards and it's not realistic. So if someone's in the room telling you you're gonna get a signature shoe, they're lying.

[B]

It's just not unless you're a handful of guys.

[A]

And even that, you have to wait. You have to wait because there could be a traffic jam. Right? You have to wait till guys kind of fall off. We had this conversation a little bit, but, man, I was a part of these rooms. And this is why the Rich Paul rule was. So I'm gonna tell you why the.

[B]

Rich Paul rule, for those who don't know, was. All the sudden, you needed to have a college diploma in X, Y and Z in order to be an agent. They wanted to push through on a college level. And it was clearly. It's called the Rich Paul rule. Cause it was clearly aimed at not letting you be an agent.

[A]

Yeah. But what it was about was, I guess they were saying you had to have a higher education. But here's why that does not work. Because the rooms that I was in, in and allowed to be in and worked alongside people in and gained experience in. There's not enough money. You cannot pay for this experience to learn these things. Right. And most people in my position, no offense, I don't want to sound like I'm making it about me, because I'm not. But what I'm saying is most representation cannot add value in multifaceted ways in those rooms. Right? If you, if, if, if, if your agent has never bought sneakers, how could he be in a sneaker meeting and add value? What is he actually saying?

[B]

It's actually not much different what you're describing than like how Warren Buffett invests in stocks. Right. Like, he has to. You have to know what you're doing, have a philosophy about how to go about it. Is this thing useful? How is it.

[A]

They can talk about more getting you more money. Okay. And that's great for most guys, all the way up, But I'm talking about the guys that get to the next level business. So if I can build a business and you only talking to me about, okay, I can get you this much money over X amount of years. Yeah, that's great. But you can't help me build a business. Right. So now as the athlete, I gotta look at that a little bit different. And I'll tell you, like, should we.

[B]

Put like the number to clutch sports up on the screen?

[A]

No, I don't even know because I.

[B]

Don'T even want that. Just in case you're an athlete and you're.

[A]

Because I don't even want that. But what I will say when I look at guys, and this is why, with Penny, Little Penny, you had Little Penny.

[B]

That was such a great campaign.

[A]

This is what I'm saying.

[B]

Such a great campaign.

[A]

So when you have that and you're able to sell shoes now, what happens is now they go to the apparel side. They give you two T shirts, two shorts, maybe one pair of socks. Then they go to the accessories. Then now you. For. You got a basketball with your logo on it. You got this thing, that thing.

[B]

Do you know when Michael Jordan came out, there was a Michael Jordan basketball. I'm a Knicks fan. I'm in New York.

[A]

Yes, you had to basketball.

[B]

I sold it at Paragon Sports on 17th street, right by Union Square. And it was eight bucks. I swear to God, Rich. I put it on layaway. I was like 11 years old. I put it on layaway.

[A]

But here's my thing.

[B]

Put an $8 basketball on layaway.

[A]

Accessories may be doing $30 million a year, right. You know, apparel may be doing $100 million a year. I remember one year, I think LeBron had one coat in China. I think that coat did. One coat did $80 million. And then you have footwear. So your footwear business between domestic and really Asia Pacific, Europe wasn't really a thing like that. That's why when Giannis came along, they really wanted to make because, wow, we got this guy from Europe.

[B]

Now NBA, Europe, we can build with him.

[A]

But before that, it was all European football. So basketball wasn't really a thing. That's why we did more. So trips to China, Asia Pacific markets versus going. Going to Europe. We did a little bit, but not. Not a ton. But I say all that to say when you. For all the athletes out there, like, again, when you get a chance to become a signature athlete, you really have to sit down and now reevaluate. I don't care what nobody say. And I'm not. Reevaluate the team at that point, because you have a real shot. Because now I have what they call I get my base. 1, 800, no, I get my base, then I get my royalty.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Your royalty is where it really goes. And you miss somebody. Because I'm going to tell you who had one of the best shoes and one of the best brands, and he's probably going to do it again. It's Kyrie Irving. Because he got taste.

[B]

Kyrie. There's no first of all.

[A]

I'm just telling you.

[B]

No question.

[A]

One of the best shoes.

[B]

Kyrie had one of the best shoes.

[A]

And he's. And he's doing it again. He's doing a great job with his new partner. But now you have to reevaluate all of this stuff because you get a royalty. Your royalty is where you really went. When people look at MJ's business. Yeah, MJ made the money because of his royalty. He built the business, and he had a royalty. Then he probably redid it all over again. I don't know what it's like now, but that's where it really starts.

[B]

Richard. I brought up the Damian Lillard line when he had some song that he made, but I overheard it stuck in my head. Don't believe that.

[A]

Passionate about that type of stuff. No, no, no, I'm not selling. I'm not selling because I don't want to think that.

[B]

That's super interesting.

[A]

You can only represent people that you.

[B]

Go to the website and.

[A]

No, you can only represent people that value expertise. And we're losing that in our industry a lot.

[B]

So Lillard says, don't believe time is money. Money is time. You stay focused, you look up, and your money's fine. I brought it up on Wednesday. The thing is, rich, everything you just said, with some exceptions, like there are guys like AI or Kyrie, but even those guys, why do those guys build businesses? You could say, well, there are other guys like Marbury or whoever else. I'll tell you why I'm saying what it comes down to is actually athletic excellence. You could say whatever you want about the way AI dressed this, that the other who, his partners were all this AI, when you put your eyes on him. No one was like that.

[A]

But that's only 50% of it. You're missing the big piece.

[B]

It's more than 50.

[A]

No, it's not.

[B]

Okay, why is it then, if it's not more than 50 piece, who else was AI, who didn't wind up a brand, or Kyrie who didn't? When you say Kyrie, you're talking about probably skill for skill. The most skilled player who ever lived. You think it's an accident that he's a business?

[A]

No, what I'm saying is, yes, it's 50% basketball.

[B]

More than 50.

[A]

Okay, let's just say it's 60%.

[B]

All right?

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'll say 80%.

[A]

I disagree.

[B]

The other piece, what do you know? You've never done this before.

[A]

The other piece of that is both of those guys. You naming one they're relatable because you don't walk down the street thinking you could be this 6, 9, 6, 10 person, right?

[B]

You think you could be. Steph is much more relatable than you think.

[A]

You could be Kyrie. When you be AI, the other thing is they connect to culture. AI had suburban kids wearing cornrows, no doubt. And arm sleeves, right? AI had every rapper. AI had Bentleys parked on the sidewalk that he forgot that he even owned. He had the mink to the floor. He had the platinum I style. He had everything. He connected to culture. And he's dropping 40 because I. Because guess what? When I used to come to Cleveland and you could ask him this, if you ever see him, you know the first person he was calling me? Rich. No, I'm serious, Rich, where you at? I'm at the Ritz. Pick me up. And then we would. We would go. We would go to dinner, we would hang out. That was my guy. Yeah, right. If you. If it's the same thing with Kai, Kai wanted his shoe to look a certain way. He wanted the color. And then I'm gonna tell you the last thing that matters more than just as much as anything else, Price point. See, once you get to a place where you start out pricing families, it's going to hurt your business. So if I'm at that sweet spot of 110 to $120 and my product is fly and I connect and I'm a real player, now you're starting to hit. If you talk to any executive at any brand, Adidas, New Balance, Under Armour, Nike, they're gonna tell you, Rich is exactly right. I'm telling you. So now, if a mom goes into a store, I got two young boys, I gotta choose between a $200 shoe, and I have to choose between $120 shoe. And LeBron, in his meetings all the time, he had one of the biggest issues because he was sale.

[B]

Didn't want to out price kids.

[A]

I don't want to out price kids.

[B]

That come from rock roll. There's a flip side to that, which is number one, every athlete you just mentioned, Marbury, was like that. Not like AI Lillard is like that. Not like Kyrie.

[A]

Okay, so what's up?

[B]

Not in terms of like, oh, my God, what did I just see? Okay, so. And there were, you know, Dominique was like that. Not like mj, like. So in each case, it's not an accident that the premier guy doing that thing is the guy who winds up with all this stuff. That's not coincidence. You can't point to one dude where it was true.

[A]

And he wasn't like, AI only had two good shoes. The answering the question after that, he didn't have it.

[B]

And there's another thing about the price point. So when I was a kid, you either had suede Pumas or shell top Adidas. Right. Or you could do Nike Basketball.

[A]

But here's. Oh, one more thing I'm leaving out also. In those times, especially in the 90s. In the 90s, the basketball shoe was the lifestyle shoe.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Today it's harder because kids only wear the basketball shoe to actually play basketball.

[B]

So that's a good point. But the reason I brought that up is the price point. I remember. And I remember my mother, like when I'm like 10 years old and I wanted new shell tops. Cause mine were dirty. And they were 50 bucks. 50 bucks for that back then in the 80s, that's a lot of money. Right. So the suede pumas were maybe $10 less. Right. So you wind up getting the Pumas. When Jordans came out rich, they were $100. No sneaker back then was a. I'm talking about like the early mid-80s. No sneaker back then was $100.

[A]

That's not true.

[B]

But it was. What was $100 back then?

[A]

New Balance.

[B]

New Balance were expensive, and they weren't 100.

[A]

That's not true. I remember the first Gemini, the first.

[B]

Pair of New Balance. My father got them and I was like, why do you think.

[A]

Let me ask this question.

[B]

70 bucks. And that was a lot of money.

[A]

Why do you think that New Balance became so popular in dc?

[B]

In dc? I don't know.

[A]

Because of the price point.

[B]

But wait, rich. The $100 price point on the Jordans became aspirational because, you see, because they.

[A]

Had someone that you could see on TV playing a game every day wearing that product too.

[B]

But also because of the price point, it was no more expensive to make the sneaker, but it became a symbol of some kind of wealth or conspicuous consumption or something that you wanted to.

[A]

To floss with, but you're hitting on something. So are you saying that this is because this is marketing at its finest? See, many people think marketing is endorsements. Marketing is not endorsements. Endorsements are endorsements. Marketing is storytelling. So you tell. You have the individual, right? You tell a great story that people can buy into and believe. You make that product. Now, what color was the product? It matters.

[B]

Well, the first Jordans were like the red, black and white, right?

[A]

Now, do you think they would have Been red, black and white. If he played for the Bulls, either way.

[B]

No, they were red, black and white. Because he played for the Bulls.

[A]

I disagree.

[B]

The first ones. Yeah, come on.

[A]

Because the first LeBron's red back and white. And he played for the Bucks.

[B]

But that came after mj.

[A]

But what I'm telling you is there's colors that matter in marketing, just like in the restaurant business. Take the best.

[B]

But the Jordan Threes, which were the best ones, were the little fake snake.

[A]

No, it's called elephant.

[B]

The elephant. Right.

[A]

Whatever they call the red, black and white.

[B]

No, no, but the ones I'm talking about were basically, like white with a little gray and then like a little red.

[A]

That's red. That's just the white diamond color.

[B]

Like Bulls colors. You didn't look at that and think Bulls. But the first one you thought was.

[A]

You're talking to a sneaker guru. I know, but I'm just trying to tell you.

[B]

I'm just saying.

[A]

I don't care what you live through.

[B]

You weren't born yet. I was living through that.

[A]

Listen, I bought more shoes. That's true. Than you. Listen, here's what I'm trying to tell you.

[B]

What do you know about this business, Rich Paul.

[A]

But listen, here's what I'm trying to tell you. Take the best restaurants, the best fast foods restaurants. What color are they?

[B]

Yup. A lot of red. A lot of red.

[A]

Not just red.

[B]

White.

[A]

And what other color?

[B]

You're saying black?

[A]

No, no. Yellow.

[B]

Yellow, that's right.

[A]

Wendy's, McDonald's, McDonald's, raising Cane's, Carl's Jr. In n out.

[B]

In n Out.

[A]

There's something.

[B]

When you're marketing, Burger King is more or less.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But when you're doing marketing, these type of things matter, Max. So going back to red, white, red, black and white, those colors matter whether you're on the Bulls or not. But it just so happened that it lined up that he was on the Bulls. And. Yes. Does that.

[B]

I will point out that the Bulls have black, and they basically took the black away going forward. And every brand you just mentioned is a lot of red and yellow and white. Not so much black in those brands.

[A]

No, but I'm talking about is.

[B]

So the first ones were the Bulls colors.

[A]

But what I'm saying is. No, I'm talking about in the restaurant, it's red, white, and yellow.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In footwear is red, black and white for the most cases, is what I'm saying.

[B]

Why black and footwear? Not in restaurants.

[A]

No. And with that colorway, you were coming out with three different colorways. Red, I mean, white, base, black, base. And then the other colorway I just told you about is basically an energy. You tell a story. In MJ's case, he come white, he come white, red and black, black, red and white. And then you tell the story back to North Carolina, et cetera.

[B]

Right. He comes Carolina with the powder blue. Yeah.

[A]

It was only, by the way, back then, it was only three colorways. And so if you bought a pair of shoes. But here's the other thing. People didn't buy MJ's because they wanted to be just like Michael Jordan. That was half of the people, half of the consumers. You know what the other half was? They wanted to be like Max, who had the BMW and the cute girl that had on Michael Jordan. So now, influencers, if you get both of those consumers, you have the entire market share.

[B]

That's interesting, because. So you have to have the elite athlete that's different than the others. Then you have to have the influencers who. Especially their thing. Especially their thing. And then you get.

[A]

Because basketball teams, high school basketball teams, for the most part, they play in a team shoe and wore their Jordans when they left the locker room.

[B]

Not what was like a bear. Your best player in high school, Max. My high school, there was a bear.

[A]

That ball. But. But if you actually did wear your shoe in game. Pennies, Jordans, Barkleys. And you had them again when you left the locker room. Now you was really at a.

[B]

Don't do that with the Jordans. Cause they would crease right here.

[A]

Well, it depends.

[B]

You needed another pair.

[A]

I did.

[B]

You wore them with the crease. You played in them. They had the crease right here. And then you wore them.

[A]

I plated them and I had another pair.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. You needed another pair.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. More MJ's being sold. I hope you learned something from this.

[A]

No, I hope you learned something. Cause this is a topic we could talk about forever, no question.

[B]

All right, listen, good week.

[A]

Yeah. What are you doing this weekend?

[B]

My daughter is coming back from New York on Sunday, but otherwise I'm open. I'm sorry I didn't call you on New Year's eve. I was KO'd.

[A]

No, you say you're a little under the weather.

[B]

So I was like, okay. Yeah, I was okay. Yeah. That's. I stayed up till I had to say Happy New Year to everybody. I had to say Happy New Year, too. And then I knocked out.

[A]

I'm hoping that my office Is semi down. I've been really upset. I haven't been able to get into my office, man. Because why? Because they, you know, the office has been closed.

[B]

Oh, right.

[A]

My office never closed.

[B]

What is this thing with everyone taking off?

[A]

I don't do that nonsense. But nevertheless. But they also. Remodeling my office. It's one thing for the office to be closed. I don't care about that. Cause I can go in there whenever I want.

[B]

Your office or the whole building?

[A]

The whole building is closed. But normally when the whole building is closed, I still go in.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But in this case, not only is the whole building closed, my office is dismantled.

[B]

Your office is nice. What do you have to remodel?

[A]

I wanted to get some new carpet and rip the towel off and do some other stuff. New tv.

[B]

Got to keep it fresh.

[A]

I wanted to keep it. I needed to be a little bit more warm. I want, you know, candles. I want to put a throw on the back of the couch. Yeah. Because like, you're living in the.

[B]

Is my home away from home.

[A]

No, but I spend more time in my office than I do at home. So I want it to be. I don't want it to feel like I'm in a.

[B]

They don't call him poor Paul.

[A]

No, it's just, you know.

[B]

So what do you got going this.

[A]

Weekend outside of playing golf?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know. See what my son wants to do. Well, my oldest. See what he wants to do? Obviously.

[B]

Is he gonna get his license one of these days?

[A]

You know, kids these days, they're not in a.

[B]

They're not in a rush to get their license.

[A]

They don't have any sense of urgency at anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If I knew that I could get a car. Yeah. I would have had my. First of all, I was driving with no license.

[B]

My daughter. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My son's a junior. My daughter's a junior. She might wind up getting her license before your son.

[A]

She might. I. Listen, I would do anything to drive a car. If you. I would go to the store for you, do anything to drive any kind of car, anything.

[B]

Some hoopdy. It didn't matter.

[A]

It didn't matter. My first. My first car, I had a 86 Cavalier with no reverse. Then I had the 86 Skylark with. With.

[B]

No. In New York, no one had carburetor. So if you had a car.

[A]

Yeah. And you know, I. I did whatever. I drove my aunties cars, uncle brothers, didn't matter. But these kids today, I don't understand it. You know, maybe catch a Movie. I definitely get a nice dinner and.

[B]

Do a. I'm gonna call you this weekend. I'm gonna call you this weekend.

[A]

I wanna go see Marty Supreme. I gotta go see.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I gotta go see Marty Supreme.

[B]

Yeah. It's getting great reviews.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, everyone goes to the movie theater.

[B]

I love going to the movie theater.

[A]

Reviews. I like to go to the movies. We go to the movies all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I like to go to the movies. But then, I don't know. I haven't. I need to. We should get. We should get. I want to take you to the sushi place I was telling you about. Let's take you. Well, I mean, let's do it. You can bring your daughter if you want to.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. She's not here till Sunday night, though.

[A]

Oh, well. Yeah. All right.

[B]

Well, I'll call you. We'll figure it out.

[A]

All right, good. So wait a minute. I have Seahawks, Ravens, Niners, Steelers.

[B]

I kind of like your picks better than mine, to tell you the truth.

[A]

Well, they. The picks are set in stone. The picks are set in stone. See you on Monday.

[B]

Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.

[A]

Please subscribe.

[B]

Please subscribe, he says.

[A]

And also.

[B]

I just say, subscribe also.

[A]

Not only just subscribe, give us a little insight, you know. Should we bring the whiteboard back?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Max thinks he doesn't look great in this green. I think you look fantastic.

[B]

Close to the skin tone.

[A]

I like it. And by the way, I don't even have those.

[B]

Yeah, these are.

[A]

What are those?

[B]

I don't even know what they're called. I found them at. I don't even want to shout them out. They could sponsor us if they want me to shout them out.

[A]

Okay. Those are dope. I have to find those. Why didn't you pick those up for me? Thought I had them already.

[B]

You have a deal with New Balance. Are you getting your different colorways?

[A]

I get a lot of different colorways, but that'll mean I have those.

[B]

Rich, let me explain how this works. First, you're going to get certain colorways.

[A]

See, I get passionate about that stuff, Max.

[B]

It was illuminating. As I said, serious.

[A]

Like, this is a big deal.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. All right, I'll give you a call. We'll figure it out as we.

[A]

Free game. Free game's over. Free game because the game is over. Yeah.

[B]

We'll see you on Monday.

[A]

See you on Monday.

[B]

Must be 21 and over in present, select states for Kansas, an affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino, or 18 and over in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem, call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business.

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