Changing of the Guard, the Chiefs' Future, and LeBron vs. Brooks

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Podcast: The Ringer
Episode: "Changing of the Guard, the Chiefs' Future, and LeBron vs. Brooks"
Date: December 15, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dive into some of the biggest storylines in sports from the past weekend, including a possible “changing of the guard” in the NFL with the Chiefs’ Patrick Mahomes going down with a major injury, the surge of Josh Allen and the Bills, and what the future holds for the Chiefs. The duo also unpacks the dramatic Lakers vs. Rockets matchup featuring LeBron James and Dillon Brooks—both Paul’s clients—and discusses the dynamics and realities of representing players on both sides of high-tension moments. Additional insights on NBA development, playoff strategies, and deeper cultural reflections round out an episode rich in both sports analysis and personal perspective.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. NFL: A Changing of the Guard?

• [05:14–15:18]
• Max and Rich reflect on a pivotal NFL Sunday, where Patrick Mahomes suffered an ACL injury and the Bills, led by Josh Allen, delivered another high-octane comeback.
• Max’s Main Takeaway: Feels like a sea change in the NFL hierarchy, particularly at quarterback, with Allen elevating to "best in the league" status as Mahomes is sidelined.
  • [06:38] Max Kellerman: "Right as the Chiefs season ends and Mahomes gets hurt… did you not feel it was the changing of the guard?"
  • [10:01] Max Kellerman: "This is the first time I would say in Josh Allen's career that's the best quarterback in football."
• Rich on Mahomes: Highlights the physical toll on Mahomes and considers the Chiefs' need for a strategic reset as their dynasty stalls.

2. Chiefs’ Future & Mahomes’ Recovery

• [13:32–18:55]
• The guys discuss how Kansas City should handle Mahomes’ injury timeline, especially as Travis Kelce seems near the end of his career.
  • [14:22] Rich Paul: "Do you want to come back as soon as possible or take it slow in the rehab? If you’re the Chiefs, you evaluate everything—production, character, professionalism—to approach a potential reset."
  • Rich floats the idea of Mahomes syncing his return with the arrival of top college receiver Jeremiah Smith as part of the Chiefs’ next championship window.
  • [17:13] Bill Simmons (Max): “If I was Mahomes… I would go to Ohio State games next year with the scouts. Manifest this thing with me and Jeremiah Smith.”

3. Devastating Injuries: Mahomes & Micah Parsons

• [20:09–26:19]
• The episode marks the rare occurrence of two franchise-altering injuries on the same day: Patrick Mahomes and Cowboys star Micah Parsons.
  • [21:13] Rich Paul: “The only thing that’s undefeated is injuries. You can have the best plan… but the only thing that could really make it not is an injury to that guy.”
  • Discussion on the broader impact on team morale and season outlook, drawing parallels to previous NBA and NFL moments when stars went down.

4. Playoff Picture & Team Trajectories

• [29:11–34:10]
• Max (Bill Simmons) and Rich hash out which NFL teams still have realistic championship dreams post-injury, with Rich expressing admiration for the Rams and raising the surging Texans as a dark horse threat.
  • [31:19] Rich Paul: “The Texans. Every now and then… the defense, especially the front seven, is an outlier defense.”
• Discussion on the Cowboys’ playoff (and existential) struggles, the high stakes for the Eagles, and why the Bills have a clearer pathway but should fear Houston as a matchup.

5. Playoff Legacies and Fan Culture

• [33:01–35:06]
• The duo explores fan expectations around playoff rivalries and matchups, emphasizing that sometimes legacies are shaped by who you don’t get to face, referencing Kobe vs. LeBron as a finals matchup that never materialized.
  • [34:27] Rich Paul: "It goes back to… just get me [to the Super Bowl]... I’m not, if I win a Super Bowl, I won a Super Bowl."
  • [34:40] Rich Paul: “Disclaimer—everything that Rich says on this show is Rich’s idea… not coming from the clients or anyone else.”

6. Inside Rich Paul’s World: Sports Agency & Media

• [36:41–38:41]
• Rich shares reflections on his motivation for doing the show, navigating public (and client) perceptions, and dispelling the myth that LeBron orchestrates his every move.
  • [35:40] Rich Paul: “He’ll tell you—'that guy has his own mind. That guy took an opportunity and went and built something.'”
• Rich tells a behind-the-scenes story about visiting the George Lucas Museum, highlighting his commitment to staying true to himself and building his own lane.

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7. LeBron vs. Dillon Brooks: Agent on Both Sides

• [39:34–45:28]
• A detailed conversation about representing both LeBron James and Dillon Brooks in a heated Lakers-Rockets matchup, including practicalities and personal philosophy as an agent.
  • [40:31] Rich Paul: "Representing players and being a nanny are different… these guys are grown men."
  • [42:12] Rich Paul: “If there’s a team out there that can get Dillon Brooks that actually has a chance to win the championship, they should.”
  • Max presses on whether Rich talks to Brooks after high-profile mistakes (like the tech late in the game), with Rich stressing players take responsibility themselves while he supports and advises where needed.
• Comparison of Brooks to classic villains—someone you hate playing against, but love on your team.

Notable Exchange:

• [43:11] Bill Simmons: "He hit two of the final three free throws to get the win."
• [43:14] Rich Paul: "He should have made the technical free throw... we'll talk about that later on tonight. But nevertheless, he came back..."

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8. NBA In-Season Cup, Wemby, and Changing Generations

• [47:07–60:41]
• Recap and analysis of recent Cup games, including Wembanyama's standout performance.
  • [48:51] Rich Paul: “When I talk trophies, Michael Jordan’s up there. But LeBron, Kobe, now Steph—they go on the shelf, too.”
  • Max and Rich debate whether Wemby could someday surpass Jordan or LeBron in terms of all-time impact, noting the historic skills and defensive influence he’s already displaying.
  • In-depth dissection of the Spurs’ development under rookie head coach Mitch Johnson, their player payroll strategy, and positioning for sustained success.
  • [54:22] Bill Simmons: “Does that mean this year?”
  • [54:24] Rich Paul: “Could be this year.”

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9. Coaching & Organization Evolution: NBA Head Coaches as Coordinators?

• [61:11–67:21]
• Max and Rich discuss the evolution of NBA coaching roles, with a provocative take on Tom Thibodeau possibly thriving more as a “defensive coordinator” than a head coach, and cultural differences in coaching trees (Spurs, Heat, etc.).
  • [65:21] Rich Paul: "Do you think some coaches have more value as assistant head coaches?"

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10. Gun Violence & Antisemitism: Culture, Community, and Sports as Refuge

• [67:19–70:44]
• In a reflective segment, the hosts address recent tragedies (Brown University shootings, antisemitic incidents), the toll on communities, and the role of sports as both distraction and unifier during troubled times.
  • [68:34] Rich Paul: “It’s just unfortunate, man. So I just wanted to say that.”
  • [69:39] Bill Simmons: “Jewish people are looking around right now saying, where are our allies? Because it feels like there’s a level of tolerance of antisemitism now around the world that is sickening.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the NFL’s generational shift:
  • [10:01] Max Kellerman: “This is the first time I would say in Josh Allen's career that's the best quarterback in football.”
• On the reality of injury in sports:
  • [21:13] Rich Paul: “The only thing that’s undefeated is injuries.”
• On representing controversial or combative players:
  • [42:18] Rich Paul: “Could some things get a little chippy? Whatever. At the end of the day… I want that. I don’t want it to the extent that he gets a technical foul… but I want it.”
• On why he started the podcast:
  • [35:40] Rich Paul: “LeBron gave me an opportunity… but if you talk to the man himself, he'll tell you, that guy has his own mind. That guy took an opportunity and went and built something which allows me to be in the position I am today to do this show."
• On the Cup, winners, and legacies:
  • [48:34–50:15] Rich Paul: "When you talk about ‘replace,’ it’s like—no. Michael Jordan’s up there. If someone else comes along, they go on the same shelf… LeBron, Kobe, now Steph…"

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 05:14 – Start of NFL recap, Bills-Patriots, Chiefs-Mahomes injury
• 13:32 – Kansas City Chiefs’ strategic future, Mahomes’ rehab
• 20:09 – Impact of Mahomes and Micah Parsons' injuries on league landscape
• 29:11 – Playoff picture shakeup, Rams, Eagles, Bills, and Texans
• 39:34 – Agent dilemmas: LeBron vs. Dillon Brooks, navigating client rivalries
• 47:07 – NBA Cup discussion, Wembanyama’s emergence
• 54:22 – Spurs’ player development, evolution of the modern NBA roster
• 61:11 – NBA coaching hierarchies: Head coach vs. coordinator roles
• 67:19 – Reckoning with gun violence and antisemitism, sports as solace
• 71:00 – End-of-show birthday and sneaker launch celebration

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Language & Tone

• Conversational, sharp, and occasionally playful.
• Max (Bill Simmons for this episode) pushes Rich for both hot takes and honest looks behind the curtain.
• Rich keeps it candid, mixing insight with straight talk and personal anecdotes.

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Closing Notes

This episode blends insightful NFL analysis, personal experiences from sports representation, thoughtful commentary on cultural currents, and a touch of celebration at the end. Whether discussing dynasties ending, player rivalries, front office strategy, or heavier topics outside the arena, the show remains a compelling blend of expert opinion and authentic rapport.

Transcript

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[Bill Simmons]

Rich. Big day yesterday in the NFL. NBA. We got to get to. But to me, that felt like a changing of the guard. I want to get into what happened with the Bills, what happened with the Chiefs. Everyone's talking about Mahomes, the dynasty and everything. I think they got. I don't think that's actually the big story from yesterday. I want to get into it.

[Rich Paul]

My Browns.

[Bill Simmons]

No problem. No one's talking about. Who's talking about your Browns.

[Rich Paul]

I'm going to tell you.

[Bill Simmons]

You want to talk about. I'm not talking about the Giants.

[Rich Paul]

Here's the thing. Let's get out the way. I need to get this off my chest. It was a bittersweet Sunday yesterday because I think everyone jinxed us, saying that it was going to be a trap game. That's what they were saying. And we go on the road.

[Bill Simmons]

Wait, who you talking about now?

[Rich Paul]

My Browns.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, will you stop? Listen.

[Rich Paul]

No, but. But seriously, because. Because when the Browns lose, my Mondays.

[Bill Simmons]

Are like, yeah, same mood. But you know what? The Giants are at the point where if they would have won that game, I'd have been mad because at this point, it's a wasted season. Get a draft pick.

[Rich Paul]

But that's. But yesterday I was torn. Let me tell you why. Because as much as the Cowboys are America's team, I truly believe when the Bears are good, they are culture's team. They are the coolest team in the league.

[Bill Simmons]

When the Bears are good.

[Rich Paul]

When the Bears are good.

[Bill Simmons]

There's been good once in my life.

[Rich Paul]

No, but I'm just saying, if they can ever get back there, they have the brand, they have the logo.

[Bill Simmons]

That's a whole other subject. Let's get this short.

[Rich Paul]

And Kevin Warren's like a brother to me. He's the president of the Bears. But my Browns.

[Bill Simmons]

Why are you still on the brown? All right, look, so we'll start with the NFL. We'll go through all that stuff, okay? Cowboys losing, the whole thing. I want to get to the. To the Lakers last night.

[Rich Paul]

Not again, please.

[Bill Simmons]

Because you are. You're. You're in a hilarious position with the lake, with that.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not in a Hilarious position.

[Bill Simmons]

Simmons and me, when I tell. That's hilarious. We were on that little group text.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

About who you represent in that game and how it. I need to talk to you about that.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, fine. But I just want you to know you caused me a lot of. Because I have to be. Here's the thing. I cannot lie on this show.

[Bill Simmons]

I know.

[Rich Paul]

And as you know, I own seats. I represent players. I have to go into the arena.

[Bill Simmons]

You know, when you called me about this show, I was thinking, he really wants to do. How's he gonna do that? But I want to see it. But how are you gonna thread this needle today? In a little while. How do you thread that needle?

[Rich Paul]

I don't say anything that I don't talk about with the guys I represent, so they know, like, okay, Rich is going to tell the truth. Like, I'm not going to go crazy and go overboard, but I can't. You know, fans want me to be delusional sometimes.

[Bill Simmons]

Have you had a problem with any clients since the show started?

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

All right. I want to talk about the cup. The MVP want to talk about the.

[Rich Paul]

Cup, because the cup. I told you.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, well, there's a whole thing about that. And then it's, well, let's get to the cup. All right. And then the baseball off season, everyone's mad at the Dodgers. I want to get into that. If we have.

[Rich Paul]

Why would you be mad at the Dodgers?

[Bill Simmons]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Rich Paul]

I enjoyed the World Series.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm mad at the Yankees for not being the Dodgers right now. But we can get to it. We've never hit on Lane Kiffin. We keep like, hey, let's talk Lane Kiffin.

[Rich Paul]

What did Lane Kiffin do?

[Bill Simmons]

We're going to get to it.

[Rich Paul]

He took a job. The man. How could you have an issue for taking a job?

[Bill Simmons]

That's. I mean, that's the show. Does that sound good to you?

[Rich Paul]

Sounds like a great show. I mean, yeah, it sounds like a. Yeah. Let's do it.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's do it. Game over is presented by fanduel. Fanduel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the FanDuel app or get head to FanDuel.com/gameover to get started. 21 and over in present in select states or 18 and over in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenectic. Rich I'm watching the Bills come back on the Patriots.

[Rich Paul]

Hell of a game. Hell of a game.

[Bill Simmons]

Hell of a game. And if you watch that game from, you know, from, from the kickoff, you see that.

[Rich Paul]

The.

[Bill Simmons]

It felt like a Patriots win early. Not just because they were winning, but because the way the game was going, it looked like an old school Patriots team that's just better than everybody. And Drake May looked so good early and the Patriots defense. And I'm thinking we're going to come out here and talk Josh McDaniels and I was going to be talking about his influence and straddling two dynasties potentially depending on what the Patriots wind up doing. And Josh Allen comes back on him. But Rich, what's crazy is last week he beats Joe Burrow in a game, the type of game that Joe Burrow usually wins. This week he does it to the Patriots and Drake May and Vrabel And Rich, as he salts away the game, I'm like, okay, this game's over. Let me flip over to the Chiefs game. Cause it looked like they were going to win that game. And Mahomes goes down with an acl.

[Rich Paul]

I know.

[Bill Simmons]

And then Gardner Minshew couldn't get it done. So right when Josh Allen, who's having the best season in football, let's be honest, Matthew Stafford might still be the mvp, but Josh Allen looks like he's.

[Rich Paul]

Ascended having a hell of a season.

[Bill Simmons]

He's ascended to like the guy. Right as the chief season ends and Patrick Mahomes gets hurt. Did you not feel yesterday it felt to me like a kind of changing of the guard.

[Rich Paul]

Well, it was like four things that happened. One, that first half, I'm looking at Drake May, he's at like ZZ's with the MVP trophy, having a spread, he's like, it feels that way. And it's super player. I'm like Drake. Cause you know, Patriots. Robert crap. I like the Patriots. I like the. But it's so hard to not for a guy like Josh Allen because he plays to the level that you would want your quarterback to play.

[Bill Simmons]

Pretty consistently you would wish your quarterback played.

[Rich Paul]

But when he falls short, he holds himself accountable. He's a true professional. The Bills, you know, the Bills, I like the Bills organization too. So you can't take anything away from him. But then the Mahomes, it's like that's a high. Both of those things Are high. First half for Drake May, second half for Josh Allen. But then when Mahomes goes down, it's like that. It's so unfortunate for that. But when you really think about it, and I always think about this, when NBA teams go to the finals for four, five, six years in a row, he's played so much football.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's played an extra season at least.

[Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And not only has he played so much football the way he plays football, so when you think about that, sometimes you like, wow. If you look at the way he played, it's almost like he's done. Unbelievable for him not to ever be injured to this.

[Bill Simmons]

This point.

[Rich Paul]

So when you.

[Bill Simmons]

When you talk about they haven't always had an offensive line and yeah.

[Rich Paul]

The scrambling, the diving, how he, you know, he comes up with those trick passes. Just anything to keep the chains moving. His name should be that keep the chains moving Mahomes. Cause that's who he is.

[Bill Simmons]

When the.

[Rich Paul]

When.

[Bill Simmons]

When he lost his keep the chains moving guy. Or at least Travis Kelce's production has gone down with age. That's when it all came up. He needs his keep the chains moving partner.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But. Yeah, because he just. He just is impulsive. The NFL. It was a great day in the NFL today.

[Bill Simmons]

It felt like this is what I'm saying.

[Rich Paul]

But I hate to see Mahomes go down.

[Bill Simmons]

Of course. But I want to talk about Josh. Like, everyone thinks Mahomes is a story right now. And look, they're eliminated from the playoffs. The man has never not been in the AFC championship game. So I understand why people are looking at that. And of course, speedy recovery Patrick Mahomes. He is the most talented quarterback I've.

[Rich Paul]

Ever seen, but hopefully he don't do that. But it's. It's Allen's time. It's Josh Allen's.

[Bill Simmons]

This is the thing about Josh Allen. I have never been as high on Josh Allen as everyone else. Like, I just feel as though he's had enough at times to make deeper playoff runs. He hasn't done it like Lamar Jackson did.

[Rich Paul]

My Browns pass on Josh Allen.

[Bill Simmons]

A lot of teams passed on. Well, a bunch of teams. I don't remember.

[Rich Paul]

That's not what I asked you.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't remember if the Browns did.

[Rich Paul]

My Browns has.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't remember if I don't remember. While we're figuring that out, I've always liked Mahomes better for obvious reasons. I always like Joe Burrow better. I look at Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson kind of similarly incredible regular season players. Let me see you lead your team to wins in the playoffs, make deeper runs than you guys have made. But I gotta say, the eyeball test this year has said Josh Allen's better than Patrick Mahomes. That's what the eyeball test has said. The numbers this year have said Josh Allen's better than Patrick Mahomes. And anytime someone brought them up together, I'm like, stop. Mahomes is an all time great Josh Allen. Let's see him get it done. When it matters most at this moment, this is the first time I would say in Josh Allen's career that's the best quarterback in football. Like there's. When your eyes tell you something, you look down at the numbers, that says something. You look at the team results and that's. They all say the same thing. I think that's the best. And I know it's not like when I was a kid in tennis, Borg would win everything all the time. And at a certain point, McEnroe beat him head to head. And that was a changing of the guard. When Michael Jordan beat Magic Johnson in the finals, there was a definite change in the guard. I'm not saying that's what's happened with Josh Allen. He hasn't done it yet. But it felt yesterday like a sea change, at least in the AFC and among the quarterback rankings, like something happened yesterday that deserves to be noted. To me, Josh Allen is the best quarterback in football.

[Rich Paul]

I don't think you said anything wrong there. I think Josh Allen has played his way to that perception from you. I think it's deserving. When you play well, you get those flowers. I don't necessarily like to be like. I think borough and Mahomes is a head and shoulders above it's yearly. Right. Because Lamar Jackson's been an mvp, so that means he's had a better year consecutively than all those guys for the regular season. But then come playoff time, it's a different.

[Bill Simmons]

But I think playoffs illuminate that stuff.

[Rich Paul]

That's what I was gonna say. We fulfilled on the playoff wins the same thing in any other sport. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with Josh Allen getting his flowers. I'm okay with that.

[Bill Simmons]

So the Browns pass on Josh Allen twice, as it turns out. Twice. It's funny because I'll remember if the Giants pass on a guy. But you asked me about. I'm not paying attention to the Browns. They passed on him twice. Yeah, but Josh Allen, remember coming out, he was a big, high potential but raw.

[Rich Paul]

That is not True player. That is not true.

[Bill Simmons]

He was raw coming out, but big. What? Quarterback, Big strong guy. Okay, good for a cold weather franchise for sure.

[Rich Paul]

You realize Mahomes went what, 10? Yeah. If you did a redraft, what would Mahomes go? One exactly Twice. Twice. You mentioned who else passed on somebody twice. The last time somebody passed on somebody twice like that was the Minnesota Timberwolves. They passed on Steph Curry twice. Yeah, I represented Johnny Flynn, so I know they passed on Steph Curry twice.

[Bill Simmons]

Listen, I get it, you know, I get it. You see what came before and see what? That, you know, and if someone's doing something new, how do you know that that's gonna happen, you know?

[Rich Paul]

Well, I'm just saying is that it's a franchise changing thing.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, for sure.

[Rich Paul]

So. But no, I'm rolling with Josh Allen.

[Bill Simmons]

So you mentioned something to me interesting about Mahomes and the injury this morning when we were chopping it up about the show.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I think, look, Mahomes, he's injured, right. I saw his statement that he came out on social media and obviously to no surprise, he has the right attitude about it, very positive about it. And I think he will come back. Right. ACL injuries are not what they used to be.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

With today's technology and things of that nature. But his rehab process, this is now, you have to put strategy around this. Do you want to come back as soon as possible or do you want to really take it slow in the rehab?

[Bill Simmons]

The reason why I say that as safely as possible.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, because the reason why I say that is because I imagine if you are the Chiefs, we think Kelsey's probably not coming back after this year.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, even if he does, he's not Travis Kelce anymore.

[Rich Paul]

He's always Travis Kelce. We're not doing that. We're not doing that, Max. Let's move on.

[Bill Simmons]

When I say that, let me say.

[Rich Paul]

When I say you're not going to give Travis Kelsey slander on this show.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the opposite of slander. Roy Jones once got mad at me for this. I like protecting a guy.

[Rich Paul]

Roy Jones isn't from Cleveland and that's my guy. I like Travis Kelsey.

[Bill Simmons]

A guy's legacy.

[Rich Paul]

I'm protecting one pack and you talk about his legacy.

[Bill Simmons]

Rich. I don't want people looking back at this Travis Kelce and thinking, you can't look back at Travis Kelce.

[Rich Paul]

You can only look back at the Travis Kelce that's going to wear a yellow jacket. That's it.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes, but that dude isn't this. That's what I'm saying.

[Rich Paul]

He is that. He's exactly that. He's the Travis Kelce that's going to wear a yellow jacket.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay, whatever.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. But here's what I'm saying about Mahomes. If you're the Kansas City Chiefs front office, how are we approaching this? Because if I'm looking down the road, obviously in the NFL, you can restructure contracts, can move pieces around. Let's really evaluate. Let's take this next year and really evaluate everything from production to character to professionalism to approach. Because we're going into a. Not a reset, because the Chiefs are the Chiefs and they're super bowl, you know, championship organization. Let's go into a reset, let's sit down, and then let's look down the road. And you know who's down the road? That guy in Columbus, receiver Jeremiah Smith.

[Bill Simmons]

So.

[Rich Paul]

And if you.

[Bill Simmons]

So you want to put.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, this is how I think. I'm not saying this can automatically happen, but you want to give yourself the best chance of this happening. Because let me tell you why. If you got Mahomes coming back healthy, year and a half off, pretty much, you know, he's going to attack the rehab. The Chiefs, they built a new practice facility, they got the new digital, this to that, everything going right. Hot tubs, cold tubs, PT everything. And then, lo and behold, six foot four. Yeah, you got Jeremiah Smith, who at a very young age came into Ohio State program as a pro, pretty much. I'm talking about in terms of how he looked at things, his entire approach, football and really their whole receiving cor. But Tate has to leave this year because Tate could be the first receiver off the board this year.

[Bill Simmons]

So you have an extra year.

[Rich Paul]

You have an extra year, all Mahomes.

[Bill Simmons]

Rehabs to wait on the guy that you try to bring in.

[Rich Paul]

If I was Mahomes, if it's the.

[Bill Simmons]

Buckeyes, man, you're really in the bag for the bucket.

[Rich Paul]

But here's what I'm saying. If I was Mahomes, I would go to Ohio State game with the scouts next year. I would go. I would manifest this thing with me and Jeremiah Smith, because now, what's it called?

[Bill Simmons]

Interference. What is it called when an agent. What do they call that?

[Rich Paul]

I don't represent my home.

[Bill Simmons]

So you're good talking about this. I'm just trying to protect you right now.

[Rich Paul]

I don't need any protection. This is how I think.

[Bill Simmons]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just saying it's strategic.

[Bill Simmons]

Because now if you get that giving away the game.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, it's game over.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. Yeah, game over. Yeah, free game.

[Rich Paul]

But here's what I'm telling you because now if you had that, not to mention, I think they both, if I'm not mistaken, are Adidas athletes. I think if I'm not mistaken, we could double check that.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, we could double check that. I think so. But nevertheless, if you have that now, you can really start to really plan things out. Because I have my quarterback, I have my one, my number one option from the receiving Corp. Andy's still there, ownership group is still intact. Defense, I think Chris Jones is still there. Right. So now it's like just when you thought the Chiefs was out, they right back in. So I believe that the approach to Mahomes rehab should be. And the fans should take it. Hey, just hear me out for a second. Just take it slow, take it slow and give yourself the best opportunity.

[Bill Simmons]

By the way, as a fan of a team, I always want if a dude has a catastrophic injury, I would always rather err on the side of caution because if you're impatient, you can wind up with worse outcomes long term. Yeah, but we see much rather be.

[Rich Paul]

Patient, but we see these guys rushing, not rushing back, eager to get back.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, sure. Especially with that football mentality.

[Sponsor Voice]

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[Bill Simmons]

Chevrolet Together Let's Drive this episode is.

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[Bill Simmons]

Shop [e-mail] by the way, speaking of the ACL, can you remember another day in the history of sports where two players on the level of Mahomes and Micah Parsons went down on the same day with the same catastrophic injury like Mahomes is the most talented quarterback I've ever seen. Micah Parsons is the closest thing I've seen outside linebacker to Lawrence Taylor. And I'm not saying he's Lawrence Taylor. I'm just saying if he's not, tell me another outside linebacker who was more like Lawrence Taylor than Parsons. Like, that's, that is ridiculously high level athletes to go down with sales the same day.

[Rich Paul]

I cannot say Lawrence Taylor just yet. But I understand what you're saying.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm not saying. Well, no, I'm saying give me someone who's more like lt.

[Rich Paul]

The dynamic of it all, the freakish athleticism, can play, you know, standing up, can play with his hand in the dirt, really, you know, drop, get to.

[Bill Simmons]

The quarterback like that. Everything.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, Micah's. Micah's unbelievable in that case. But this is why seasons and strategy and decision making is so fragile. Cause think about it. The packers was right. We're going to get the key piece to our defense. We're gonna plug them right in.

[Bill Simmons]

And it worked.

[Rich Paul]

And it worked. The only thing that's undefeated is injuries. Because you can have the best plan. We've seen it, and I don't want to beat a dead horse or bring up old stuff, but we've seen it in other sports. The plan is great until it's not. And the only thing that could really make it not is an injury to that guy. Somebody else could have been injured, but the fact that it's Micah Parsons and that's the chess piece.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm trying to think. You're thinking. Are you talking about a client of yours that was involved in a trade when you said, I don't want to beat a dead horse?

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm not.

[Bill Simmons]

Because I'm thinking about one of the reasons that people hated the Luka AD trade was not just because of the age or the way luka's perceived, but AD his history tells you 60 to 65 games a year. He's tall, he played the way he. He's gonna. He's gonna miss 20ish games in a season. So that's, I think. And given his age, that was one of. That was like the main reason people got mad at that trade. Cause AD is a superstar. But it's like you can look and say, hey, there's a high chance for injury or physical deterioration here. So when that happens, if that goes sideways, people can actually get mad at the plan. But with a guy like Micah Parsons, it's not like, oh, he's some kind of special injury risk. They got him in his physical prime. So that's just bad luck.

[Rich Paul]

That's just bad luck. And it's never, I cannot remember a time where two guys at that level that means that much to their organizations go down on somebody else.

[Bill Simmons]

Think about this. The Chiefs were eliminated basically on the next play from the playoffs. Who says if Mahomes is in that game, they don't win that game? Right. It looked like, oh, they have a good chance to win. Gardner Minshew, very good backup, came in, did what he tried, he tried to do what he could do. They lose. Right?

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Bill Simmons]

And at the same time, Parsons goes down. The packers are live in the nfc. They lose that game and your entire kind of prognosis, right. The way you would, you would project them to play and how far they could go, change. They go from, hey, they might win the super bowl too. I don't see the packers winning the Super Bowl.

[Rich Paul]

But the thing is, when a guy gets injured like that, it's not just about him, it's also about the rest of the team. You know, you lose your morale in that moment because a guy, we saw it in the game seven of the finals, you know, when Halliburton goes down, it's like, man, you know, it's just, it's just a.

[Bill Simmons]

You lose your leader, at least on defense in this case.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And it's also like you feel for that person. Right. No matter how strong they are, when you are a close knit team, you feel for that person. And I've been there with a ton of injuries. You know, when Kyrib was injured in the finals at Golden State, that was another tough one that, who knows, it changes the outcome of the series in that matter.

[Bill Simmons]

So the morale is a thing. The fact that you just lose Kyrie or lose Micah Parsons, there's no way to respect that, cannot make up for that level.

[Rich Paul]

And that's where people got on T. Lou when he said what he said about the next man up. You can say next man up mentality all you want, but if the next man up is not equivalent to that level of impactfulness, it's not really the next man up. It's the next man available that we actually have to put out there.

[Bill Simmons]

Although what's crazy in the NBA nowadays is Bankero goes down, they get hot, Trae Young goes down, they're fine, right? Like there's some. There have been instances and there are other examples where LeBron went out and they were okay. There are examples of. In the NBA right now especially, I think, a super important piece going down. And the team still.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you're talking about two separate things here. Mahomes and Parsons are critical pieces of winning a championship, obviously. Right. Because the Chiefs aren't playing to go to the playoffs, they're playing to win a championship. And when you trade a guy, when you trade for a guy like Michael Parsons, you only have one thing in mind, right?

[Bill Simmons]

You're looking for the chip.

[Rich Paul]

He's not talking about making the playoffs. They want to win the Super Bowl. Those other guys, you know, Paolo goes down with a slight injury. You're just talking about a different style of play.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, when he went down, the coach was under fire and the team was losing. And then their best player goes down and they start winning.

[Rich Paul]

Well, here's. But again, when you talk about best player, best player and best way to play are two totally separate things. So sometimes when you, when you're, when you have the best player, it's up to the best player to recognize, okay, how are we actually playing the game with what we have. And where do I fit in? Right. In moments. Because oftentimes, especially in basketball, especially today, like there's no authentic identity to most teams today, like it was back in.

[Bill Simmons]

The day, or like the Heat have an identity.

[Rich Paul]

Right?

[Bill Simmons]

Like the Heat is a system.

[Rich Paul]

They have both system.

[Bill Simmons]

They gonna play, but they change their whole identity in terms of the way they play. But they have an identity. We're gonna play fast, we're gonna do it like this.

[Rich Paul]

What are you gonna do before all that? You're going to play, right? That's why guys can go to the Heat and really do well. I mean, you take guys that was on the Heat and then when you take them off the Heat and put them in a different environment, it's sometimes not the same. But going back to the point when certain guys go out, even like Trey being off the Hawks for a moment, well, that just allowed them to play a different style. Now you got a four man and Jalen Johnson that could rebound, push, get into a dribble handoff and bring the.

[Bill Simmons]

Ball and all that stuff, but it's.

[Rich Paul]

Less high pick and roll every time down.

[Bill Simmons]

And in this modern NBA, when you have the high pick and roll and it's two guys playing basically and three guys standing around, that's not the same as when the ball is moving when, when.

[Rich Paul]

But that don't make. That doesn't necessarily. It's probably a better way to play the game for wins.

[Bill Simmons]

But what is a better way to play the game for wins, being able.

[Rich Paul]

To really have the, you know, you gotta have the ball moving. Rick Carlisle said at the end of last year, he said, and when you look at both of those teams that was in the finals, yes, they had their go to guy, but any and everybody was comfortable taking the shot within the floor of the offense because they're used to it.

[Bill Simmons]

Because they're not. It's not just a high pick and roll.

[Rich Paul]

So that changes things.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, but Parsons going, so, so Parsons hurts.

[Rich Paul]

That's hurt.

[Bill Simmons]

How about the fact that the team that trades Parsons, the Dallas Cowboys, who are getting everyone's hopes up not that long ago, beat the Eagles head to head. Here they come. This is their year. It's hilarious to me. It's. It's always funnier when they make the playoffs and then they lose because the Dallas fans go crazy and then get crushed. I hate the Dallas Cowboys, but as a Giants fan.

[Rich Paul]

You hate the Dallas Cowboys.

[Bill Simmons]

Giants fan.

[Rich Paul]

Fair. So I always.

[Bill Simmons]

You love it because you're a businessman and they're good for business.

[Rich Paul]

No, I want to see the Cowboys in the playoffs.

[Bill Simmons]

Right? Everything I'm saying, they are not going to make the playoffs. They have like a 1% chance. They have to go 3 and 0. Eagles have to go 03.

[Rich Paul]

Eagles not going 03. No, but it's just always better when the Cowboys are in the playoffs.

[Bill Simmons]

I don't know about that.

[Rich Paul]

It is. It's just like it's better when the Knicks are in the playoffs.

[Bill Simmons]

I think it's better when the Cowboys keep those hopes alive, at least till late in the season. Because when they're in the playoffs, they're not making a run, they're not winning playoff games.

[Rich Paul]

It's just I'd rather see the Cowboys in the playoffs than not as a.

[Bill Simmons]

Fan of football, would rather see Dallas fans suffer. I'm like, I'm like in that episode of south park when Cartman tricks the kid into eating his own parents in a chili and then licks the tears off his face. That's what I want to do. The Cowboys fans.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you're a giant. I'm just, I'm not. I'm a Browns fan. So I, I don't get in. In the middle of all of that. I like to see the Cowboys in the playoffs. The Cowboys have a lot of haters. I'm not one of those guys. I just like to see them in the playoffs.

[Bill Simmons]

So Parsons goes down the. The Packers, I think were live before that. I think, like, oh, you have. You can't discount the Packers.

[Rich Paul]

Of course they were.

[Bill Simmons]

The way I see it shaping up right now, if you say who's going to be in the NFC and AFC championship games, I'm looking at Rams over Eagles to get to the Super Bowl. You and I have been to some Rams games this year together. The Rams.

[Rich Paul]

The Rams are real.

[Bill Simmons]

They have everything you need from coach to quarterback to offense to defense. But they have a third down defense on money down. Those dudes are impossible. They come through when you need them to have a clutch defense on top of it. I love the Rams this year. The Eagles are better than people realize and they figured out winning games when they weren't even that good. The AFC to me is more interesting, Rich, because the Bills, it looks like the Bills year.

[Rich Paul]

It does.

[Bill Simmons]

You can't discount the Patriots or the Broncos, but it looks like the Bills year. But you know who I'd be scared of if I was the Bills?

[Rich Paul]

Let me guess. Hold on.

[Bill Simmons]

Cause I think this is who's going to be there in the end.

[Rich Paul]

Texans.

[Bill Simmons]

Hundred percent. The Texans. Every now and then. First of all, CJ Stroud is a dude who, ever since college, I always got the feeling he's a Buckeye. He has a chance to be special in big moments. He just gives me that feeling. But. And they got the coach. But the defense, especially the front seven, is an outlier defense. Meaning there's some defenses that come along and you go, yo, that is. I know the Seahawks are really good and the Rams are really good, but the pressure that the Texans can get up front reminds me of watching the Bucks when they beat the Raiders in the Super Bowl. Middle of that year, maybe. Oh, what was that? 02, middle of that year. Mike Vick is killing everybody. He reels off seven wins for Atlanta. They run into that Bucks defense and there's nothing you could do with it. And when I saw that, it was like, that looks like a Super bowl team to me. That's the feeling I'm getting from the Texans right now. Like, if I was a fan of a team in the afc, the last team I want them to play is the Texans.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. The playoffs are always about matchups, as you know. That's a bad matchup for the Bills. The Bills should want to. I don't know if they can dodge the Texans in any.

[Bill Simmons]

What can you do?

[Rich Paul]

But I know sometimes on the NBA side, you look at it as like.

[Bill Simmons]

Can someone play traffic cop? Right.

[Rich Paul]

It's a bad matchup. So you may want to be two versus being one. Therefore you don't have to play these two teams twice. You don't have to play one of them and let them two kind of cancel each other out.

[Bill Simmons]

There'll always be not an asterisk, but in people's minds, they'll be like, but I want to see him do it against Mahomes. But if Josh Allen gets out of the AFC this year, with the Broncos and the Pats and the Texans sitting there waiting for them, that's a lot.

[Rich Paul]

Look how crazy that is for people to think I want to see they have to do it against this person. It's like, no, they're not there.

[Bill Simmons]

But you can't deny that.

[Rich Paul]

No. That's a no. If we get a Mahomes and Josh Allen AFC championship game, great. That's for us fans. And it's fantastic. At that point, I think you get a different food order, you probably take it up a notch, do everything pretty much more top shelf, because it's a top shelf showing. Coming up, you may get truffles or something on.

[Bill Simmons]

You mean for the watch party?

[Rich Paul]

For the watch party. Yeah. But no, if. If I'm Josh Allen, if I get there, it don't matter how I got there. Just get me there so I can. I'm not. If I win a Super Bowl, I.

[Bill Simmons]

Want a Super Bowl. Of course, you're right. But what I'm saying is, like, we were all waiting for Kobe and LeBron to meet in the finals. It never happened.

[Rich Paul]

The puppets was amazing.

[Bill Simmons]

That.

[Rich Paul]

First of all, that puppet commercial.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, right.

[Rich Paul]

But again.

[Bill Simmons]

But it just did. But it didn't happen. That's a loss.

[Rich Paul]

But kind of. It goes back to. And here's, you know, you get the fans. And again, just disclaimer everything that Rich says on this show is Rich's idea. It's Rich's.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. It's not coming from someone else.

[Rich Paul]

It's not coming from the.

[Bill Simmons]

It is so funny to me. I read reactions. I'll, like, see. And people will send them certain reactions to me. And I'm thinking, like, the way this started, so people know is I get a call from you maybe a year and a half ago.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And I was already developing something that. And you were like, hey, are you ready to do this show? I thought you were kidding.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Bill Simmons]

I thought you wanted to rep me or something. I didn't know. So after about five minutes, it occurred to me, like, I wasn't taking it serious. I thought. And I was like, oh, shit, he's serious. And then I thought, like, if Rich wants to do that if he's willing to put himself out there, let's do it. And then much later on, Simmons calls me and the ringer gets involved. We're like, yes, we like that. But the thought, what the people from afar think is that this has been orchestrated by LeBron James.

[Rich Paul]

It's the weirdest thing, but it just goes to show you, really, how people think. Yes, LeBron gave me an opportunity, and I am overly, overly appreciative of. But if you talk to the man himself, he'll tell you, that guy has his own mind. That guy took an opportunity and went and built something which allows me to be in the position I am today to do this show. The reason why I wanted to do this show is because, again, I don't like to put a limit on myself. I know how far I can go. But there will be some times where I have to really just totally bluntly tell the truth about a scenario. And maybe one of my clients are involved and maybe they're not. But it was more so about being insightful, Right? Being insightful and giving a perspective that I think there's an audience that wants to know. I can't worry about the audience that wants the drama or that only wants you to talk about one team in a perfect way. That's not how it works. But I say all that to say I always get this thought. And I went yesterday. I went and visited the George Lucas Museum. First of all, Max, you have to go.

[Bill Simmons]

I was a Star wars fan as a kid.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, it's not just about Star Wars.

[Bill Simmons]

Raiders of the Lost Ark. What?

[Rich Paul]

When I tell you that you have to go see this museum, I'm in. I had, you know, Mellie Hobson, she invited me to go, and she was an unbelievable host, and George was there as well. And when I tell you this place, I can't even.

[Bill Simmons]

So, hold on. Wait. Timeout. Rewind. You didn't just go to the George Lucas Museum. You got a tour from George Lucas.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

That's not the experience everyone's gonna have. You realize. Well, and now I'm not going to the George Lucas Museum because I will not get. Unless I get a tour from George Lucas.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no. You should. No, no, no. You should definitely go. And I also went with someone else, but I can't say it. But I can't say it without saying it. And it was great. It was phenomenal. I'm going back.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, because he probably let you ride around in the Millennium Falcon or something. It's going to be the VIP treatment.

[Rich Paul]

This place is going to be a place that you know how kids hang out. And you'd be like, I don't want them hanging over there. You're gonna want your kid hanging here. You are going to want your kid to hang here. So we have to go. I'll take you.

[Bill Simmons]

All right, good. I'm in. But, George, you gotta be there. What you were saying about clients ruffling feathers, this and that, I couldn't. Well, first of all, let me just say this. So I'm watching the Cowboys game. I get a text in our group text with you, me and Simmons talking from Simmons, like, oh, this Lakers game is crazy. And I'm so frustrated because the reason I'm just like, you know what? To hell with it. I'm just on the Cowboys is because I have 15,000 subscriptions to different services and all kinds of apps. And if I, after all that trying to find the Lakers game, have to.

[Rich Paul]

While living in la, While living in.

[Bill Simmons]

La, I have to go to two different places, come up with passwords that I forgot.

[Rich Paul]

I'm out.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm out. It's driving me crazy. So I'm like, you know what? I'm not watching. Did not see the only thing.

[Rich Paul]

I missed a really good game.

[Bill Simmons]

I know. I watched the Cowboys lose, which was a lot of fun for me, but. But. But. And then I saw the end of the game because I had to find it after the fact. How do you deal with. How do you deal with having two clients in a game and one of them's a bigger client? But you have to represent the interest of both. You have LeBron James and Dillon Brooks.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And they get into it.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Bill Simmons]

And, you know, I'm not one of these guys who's like, conspiracy theory in the 16 finals. Oh, because the league got rid of Draymond. Because to me, that was a brilliant move by LeBron. If you have a hothead on the other team and you can goad him and he's got a lot of fouls, like his next tee, his next tech. He's suspended for a game, and you can goad him into a tech. Good for you. That's what LeBron did to Draymond. He kind of goaded Dillon Brooks into a critical mistake late in the game when Dillon Brooks got the tech. And maybe that leads to, like, you know, there were more plays after that, but it was a close game, and LeBron figured out a way to get his team a little advantage, and Dylan Brooks gave it to him. What do you do after a game, like, that Lakers win. How do you deal with both clients?

[Rich Paul]

Well, simple. First of all, I think people get. Representing players and like, being a nanny mixed up, like, I'm not a nanny. It's like these guys are grown men. You got two guys overgrown. Two guys competing, right? Compete, compete.

[Bill Simmons]

But do you get on? Like, if you, if you communicate with Dillon Brooks, it's like, yo, what are you doing?

[Rich Paul]

I love Dillon Brooks, but do you advise him?

[Bill Simmons]

Like, hey, what are you doing? You just. What do you mean?

[Rich Paul]

No, he's playing basketball. He's doing what? He's. He don't play for the Lakers.

[Bill Simmons]

He got teed up in a. What turned out to be one or.

[Rich Paul]

A two point game. I mean, obviously, you know, for Dylan Brooks. Mike George is Dylan Brooks's agent at Klutch Sports Club.

[Bill Simmons]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

And we represent Dylan Brooks, Dillon Brooks, obviously, you know, you don't want it to go that far. And you know, you could say, well, it could have went either way. It was in the. It was in the heat of the battle and things like that. But let me just tell you something. Like I said this the other day when we were talking about the Rockets. I can guarantee you that Raphael Stone, if he could have kept Dillon Brooks and got Kevin Durant, he would have. And I'll tell you another thing. If there's a team out there that can go and get Dillon Brooks that actually has a chance to win the championship, they should, because, yeah, he had the situation where he didn't make the shots in the series against Memphis a couple years back, but you want that guy on your team competitive. Yeah. And he's a guy that you probably don't want to play against every night, but if he's in your locker room.

[Bill Simmons]

You want that classic case of a dude who you hate when he's on the other team, but if he's on your team, you love him.

[Rich Paul]

And so could some things get a little chippy, whatever the case may be at the end of the day? Poke the bear. Like, I want that. I don't want it to the extent that he gets a technical file.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, right. That's what I'm saying.

[Rich Paul]

I don't want it to that extra.

[Bill Simmons]

Actually, the dude who poked was the bear. The bear poked and got the reaction. But here's what I'm saying, you know, I don't.

[Rich Paul]

I think you go just. And I think he knows this. You go just right up to that. So that was unfortunate. You learn from that. But I enjoyed the combat, the competition of it all. I enjoy the challenge and you know what? For LeBron, in his case, he's in year 23, there's nothing he hasn't seen, right? And so when you're going into a game like that, it's a Sunday night in Phoenix at the end of the day. He played a pretty good game last night.

[Bill Simmons]

Hit two of the final three free throws to get the win.

[Rich Paul]

Well, he should have made the technical free throw. Yeah, right, yeah, he should have made the technical and we'll talk about that later on tonight. But nevertheless, he came back.

[Bill Simmons]

And why is LeBron shooting that technical free throw?

[Rich Paul]

You could look at it both ways, but here's the thing.

[Bill Simmons]

He's not a great, like, he's not the worst free throw shooter. He's not a great free throw shooter.

[Rich Paul]

But when you look on the floor, I actually like the challenge of him taking that free throw, because it's all a mental thing. So the fact that he wanted to take that free throw, you just gotta knock it down. Okay, fine. But now you draw the foul on Devin and he makes two or three, so you win that game. But was it a foul? Oh, it was a foul. I'm not saying that, because if it wasn't a foul, I would say it wasn't a foul, but I think Devin would probably say, man, would you have called that in the first quarter? Probably not.

[Bill Simmons]

That was a little ticky tack.

[Rich Paul]

But nevertheless, they called it. Look, there's been plenty of calls that went against the Lakers, right? So for once or twice they get a call, fine, whatever. But nevertheless, what I'm saying is LeBron has seen everything in 23 years. I believe that some nights you need that challenge because the regular season could be dull, it could be boring. I didn't mind it. I. I really didn't mind it and I didn't mind it. Always take him to get up to here for you to really. Because he don't really get rattled. He don't. You know, people try antics. We've seen the blow, the kiss in the ear from Lance Stevenson. You've seen people try to blew in his ear, do something, do different things. And it's always when you get them to that point, I like that person because that's when it get, you know.

[Bill Simmons]

So you don't really have. After a game like that, you don't have to thread the needle. I'm trying, like, let's give him a peek behind the curtain. In other words, clutch sports, you have an agent that's not you who represents Dillon Brooks directly, even though you're the Head of Clutch Sports. So it's not like you have to text with Dillon Brooks after the game like what are you doing? Or something like that.

[Rich Paul]

I'm sure Mike George talked with Dylan and was like. And I'm sure Dylan talked with himself like at the end of the day you want to go right up to that and you know, it could have went either way. He could have. That could have also been nothing, right? It depends on the night, right? Every night is different. It could have also been nothing. So that was unfortunate. But no, it's just one of those things where it's just like, you know, tomorrow's another game.

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[Rich Paul]

Exclusions apply.

[Sponsor Voice]

Visit the website for full terms and conditions.

[Bill Simmons]

So last week I was talking about the cup, right? The Emirates Cup. The NBA.

[Rich Paul]

You were wrong by the way.

[Bill Simmons]

Well, I.

[Rich Paul]

Wait, it's true. NBA cups.

[Bill Simmons]

Let's not misremember what I said. I did not say this is bad. I said it's better than nothing. Meaning it's good. I just think it could be better.

[Rich Paul]

How set was that game for the NBA? I'm just. Just for the league.

[Bill Simmons]

Which one?

[Rich Paul]

Well, both were really good but. But I'm talking about the Spurs Thunder game.

[Bill Simmons]

That was the fact that Wemby comes Back. And he kind of looks like a minute restriction. You know what? You know what? I watch. I watch this with my daughters a lot now. Like, nature shows, right? You see like. Like, you know, with the lions and the gazelles and whatever else, and the wildebeest, when you see a newborn calf and their knees are all like this, and they can't really run yet. Wemby came back kind of looking like that. Wemby did not have his most coordinated game. He looked, like, shaky. But his impact on the game, even in that condition, when you're like, that's not good. Wemby is so ridiculous that every now and then a guy comes along, we. You And I debate MJ, LeBron, MJ to me, number one. And by the way, I think decisively number one, and I think LeBron is decisively number two. However. And obviously you feel differently. However, every now and then, a guy comes along and you go, can he replace LeBron one day, for example?

[Rich Paul]

Sorry, replace him where?

[Bill Simmons]

Replace MJ one day, for example. LeBron. LeBron came along, you're like, can he. Like, every now and then you put your eyes on a guy and you go, maybe that dude is the one who can displace Michael Jordan at the very top. And I haven't seen that happen yet. I think LeBron's come closest.

[Rich Paul]

See, but here's my question.

[Bill Simmons]

But what I'm saying is Wemby is the new guy who I look at and I go, I just wonder, can he be known as the best player ever one day if he stays healthy? Because his impact on the court is ridiculous.

[Rich Paul]

But see, he was not having a.

[Bill Simmons]

Great game, and it was ridiculous. And they beat the Thunder.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. But let me ask you a question. When I was a kid, right, and I had a ton of trophies, I was a pretty decent muni league sports player. And I would get my trophies and I would put them up, and I would get another trophy, put it up there. I never took a trophy down. So when you talk about replace, it's like, no, Michael Jordan's up there. If someone else comes along and they go on the same shelf as Michael Jordan, which is, I. E. LeBron, you put him up there. Kobe goes up on the shelf with Michael Jordan. I now think Steph Curry goes up on the shelf with those guys.

[Bill Simmons]

If you think Steph Curry is on the same shelf with Michael Jordan, I think Steph Curry. Are you.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I think. I think. I didn't say Steph Curry was as good as Michael Jordan.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm saying they're not on the same shelf.

[Rich Paul]

For what? If there's different trophies, man, it don't have to be a 7 foot. If Michael Jordan's trophy is 7 foot tall and Steph Curry's trophy is 5ft tall and they're on the same shelf, what does that mean?

[Bill Simmons]

So what I'm saying is, if Michael Jordan's trophy is seven feet tall, and to me, LeBron's trophy is six, 11. But when I looked at LeBron, I thought, is that going to be a seven foot one trophy? And I wound up six' 11. Pretty close.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, let me give you a different analysis.

[Bill Simmons]

I look at Wemby thinking, does he wind up with the tallest trophy ever? Like he's. Well, you can't say that because he's doing this.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I'm saying. You can't say that because generations are different. But to your point with Wemby, what was the critical. You didn't watch the game? I did. Did you watch the whole game?

[Bill Simmons]

I didn't watch the whole game.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. There was a critical point in the game where Wemby contested a floater. I mean, you're shooting the ball over Wemby, so you damn near got to throw the ball, like, descending level when a plane is landing like that high in the sky.

[Bill Simmons]

I think I know the play you're talking about.

[Rich Paul]

But then the defense, the offensive rebound went into the hands of. I don't know if it was Hardenstein or somebody else. And Wemby turned around and knocked it out of his hand. So he didn't get the block. He contested, but it made the ball fall short. And then the guy had the offensive rebound, and within the same, pretty much the same landing, he turned and knocked the ball out, and they went the other way.

[Bill Simmons]

I know the play you're talking about. And by the way, Wemby had a dozen plays that made me think that, who else can do that?

[Rich Paul]

But here's the thing, and I would. Wemby. I got in trouble. Not in trouble, but I got criticized in 2019 when I made this. I was doing an article. I think it was Dave McMenamin. And I said that I felt like playmaking from the bigs. I felt like AD was the best playmaking big. This was. I mean, it's 8. It's Jokic and it's AD, but just.

[Bill Simmons]

Now it's Jokic back then. Yeah, but Jokic.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but I was speaking in terms of. I said, when Giannis gets that playmaking ability, the Bucs are going to win it, they would win a championship. And lo and behold, they did right. And he got better with his playmaking. Wemby's the type of guy, I watch it, but I'm 50, 50 on this, because normally I would be like, if you draw two or three, you kick it. But the difference is he doesn't have to. This is what I'm saying. The difference is he's literally at the rim. So I don't know.

[Bill Simmons]

And can shoot it, by the way.

[Rich Paul]

But what I'm saying is when he rolls right, he is literally like, he's at the dots, but his hand is at the rim.

[Bill Simmons]

It's at the rim. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So even though Vassell or Fox or Cat, they may be open in the corner, and normally you want that guy to spray it, I'm kind of leaving it up to Wemby, because only he can feel his way through if I can lay this ball up or. Or. Or kick it out.

[Bill Simmons]

But watching that game, I did think, like, there's no. This is. This is how my. There's no real answer to that. Except that on the other team, on okc, if you want an answer to Wemby, and I don't just mean head to head, I mean a guy who can do a lot of the same stuff. So you got to account for that. On the other team, you're saying Chet. Chet is like. If you want an answer for Wemby, you're not going to do better than Chet.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, Chet's really good. But there is no answer for Wemby. Let's just be clear. But I mean, here's the thing.

[Bill Simmons]

He's. If unstoppable.

[Rich Paul]

If Wemby decides that he's going to play efficient basketball every night, there is no he. First of all, Chet kind of does that.

[Bill Simmons]

By the way, Chet plays efficient, and he's 7 million or whatever.

[Rich Paul]

Wimby 74. No.

[Bill Simmons]

What's Chet?

[Rich Paul]

7Ft?

[Bill Simmons]

No.

[Rich Paul]

7 2, maybe.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah, he's. Chet is super tall.

[Rich Paul]

No, Chet is. But what I'm saying is if Wimby decides that this is how he going to play, the league is in trouble. But, yeah, here's. But here's what I want to say.

[Bill Simmons]

Does that mean this year?

[Rich Paul]

It could be this year.

[Bill Simmons]

That's what I'm saying. The cup could possibly be a preview of the finals. Knicks and Knicks and Spurs could be the Finals.

[Rich Paul]

See, I gotta keep my eye on you because you say stuff just because it's New York. Right? But I. Listen.

[Bill Simmons]

You see the way Towns has been.

[Rich Paul]

Playing Defense recently Towns has stepped it up. Here's the thing. I always said the Knicks are a surface level trade of getting to the Finals. Not surface level.

[Bill Simmons]

What's surface level mean?

[Rich Paul]

I just think somewhere in the guard space. Because, you know, like when the Pistons won, one day it was Aguirre, one day it was. It was Johnson.

[Bill Simmons]

If Johnson. If Johnson shot it better from three, they wouldn't need any.

[Rich Paul]

They're just sitting there.

[Bill Simmons]

But they need a little something.

[Rich Paul]

Surface level trade. But think about the spurs for a second. The way you win against the Thunder is what they shown us. They had guys that can switch, right? Yeah, they had guys. You talk about advancing the ball straight off the rebound. Boom. Kicking it ahead. Guys made shots. If the spurs make shots, they're a very tough team to beat. Fully healthy. But if it's the. They got five guys that can make a play.

[Bill Simmons]

That's the thing. Like what you just said when the warriors with. Had Dre at the five and played five out because they were. He had so much space to shoot because of. And then. So he shot like 38% from 21. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And they had those shooters coming off the misdirection.

[Bill Simmons]

It's crazy.

[Rich Paul]

And they back.

[Bill Simmons]

What this is on the spurs is you got five dudes who are all playmakers and one of them is 7 foot 5 or whatever he is. It's a whole.

[Rich Paul]

Can we talk about this for a second? Let's rewind it all the way back. Do you know Mitch Johnson?

[Bill Simmons]

What about him?

[Rich Paul]

You know who he is?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

He's the head coach of the Spurs. Yes. Mitch Johnson worked pre draft camp for me with Dejounte Murray. He and Dejounte's uncle Terry was with Dejounte when we signed him. Mitch Johnson then goes on. He works our pre draft camp. We're there every day. Knows basketball.

[Sponsor Voice]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

Dejounta goes to the Spurs. Mitch goes and works for the G League team. Then he works his way to the back of the bench. Then he works his way to the front of the bench. Now he is the head coach of the Spurs. The spurs could have hired.

[Bill Simmons]

It's Eric Spoelstra.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the same kind of culture.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just saying, the spurs could have hired anybody. They got a ton of people from their tree. They give this guy the opportunity. Right. Fair. Then you make the trade for Fox.

[Bill Simmons]

Which a client of yours.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, make the trade for Fox. But you draft Castle for sale. Pay for sale. Harper, obviously. Wemby, when you think about this, you gotta pay Wemby. You gotta pay him. Right. But it's when you pay him and how it works. So now when you look at their books and you look at their talent, they're so positioned because you're getting production from these young players that is probably on their rookie deals, anywhere between 35 to $50 million a year of worth.

[Bill Simmons]

Of production and you're paying a fraction of it.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And when you look at the buy in. When you look at the buy in.

[Bill Simmons]

Mitch doing a hell of a job.

[Rich Paul]

When you look at Wimby comes back. You gotta get the guy the ball. Nobody's fretting at that. But then you see Castle have 30 one night. I think four guys was in their 20s.

[Bill Simmons]

When you said that, what you just said about five playmakers and they all come. It's crazy. It's like. I see it as like an evolution of what was started in Golden State.

[Rich Paul]

But then you have a guy like a Keldon Johnson, right. Everybody needs that type of guy.

[Bill Simmons]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Here's a guy that played here and was probably the best player on his high school team. Came in talented, pretty highly talented in college, was just outside of the lottery pick or close lottery pick. And so now can he buy in to play a role? He's done it now. So now you look at that, you get Cornette comes in, coming from Boston, playing the right way. We know the professional that Harrison Barnes is. Right. Some days he's finishing games, some days he's got.

[Bill Simmons]

But you also have a mix of veterans with the young people.

[Rich Paul]

Not gonna get a peep out of him.

[Bill Simmons]

So are the spurs live to knock OKC out and stop him from getting to the Finals?

[Rich Paul]

I think at the Spurs. First of all, let's not get too ahead of ourselves here. We can't discount Denver, of course. Okay. I think the spurs, the way they're built and the way they approach the game. Yeah. I mean, they are.

[Bill Simmons]

And the Knicks could get out of the East. Correct?

[Rich Paul]

The Knicks could definitely get out of the East.

[Bill Simmons]

So the cup really is. It is a pretty. I'm not saying it's better than 50 50, but like as a probability. But it's a fairly high probability. Like, you know, it's not. It's not 5% or something like that. That this is the cup is a. Is a preview of the five. Because it'd be super interesting if the winner of. If the. There's a result from the cup and then that's. Then that that team tries to either defend that or, or. Or avenge it in the finals.

[Rich Paul]

That's that's interesting, but isn't that. I guess that's not what the NBA kind of created the cup for.

[Bill Simmons]

No, but it might work out that way.

[Rich Paul]

But you could start to see that in the event that teams start to take the beginning of the season very serious. Because I tell you, man, the Thunder and the spurs are serious. Right. I think the Knicks. First of all, when you have Mike Brown, you can't BS with Mike Brown. There's no. There's, there's, there's. There's no BSing with Mike Brown. You gotta defend. You have to defend.

[Bill Simmons]

He's sort of. He's also an interesting choice to succeed Thibodeau, because Tibbs, what, like, to me, Tibbs, the kind of guy, if you're gonna use him as a head coach, you bring into the organization to get you to a certain level.

[Rich Paul]

Do you know what tree Mike Brown's from?

[Bill Simmons]

What tree? When he took over head coach of Cleveland. I'm trying to think of now. I can't think of it.

[Sponsor Voice]

Spurs.

[Bill Simmons]

Oh, right, right.

[Rich Paul]

Where's Presti?

[Bill Simmons]

Right. Same thing.

[Rich Paul]

Yep.

[Bill Simmons]

But Brown is like, Tibbs gets you to a certain level. And Mike.

[Rich Paul]

I thought Tibbs was great, though.

[Bill Simmons]

He did. But, but, like, at a certain point, the team is playing with such intensity all year, guys are accruing a lot of minutes, et cetera, et cetera. And it's usually he bumps up against the second round of the playoffs, and it's one year.

[Rich Paul]

One year they. One year guys went down.

[Bill Simmons]

That's true. And they would have beaten the pace. They would have beaten the pace. But. But even you go down, if you. If you're logging all these minutes all year, you're more likely to go down.

[Rich Paul]

You can't have it both ways.

[Bill Simmons]

Why not?

[Rich Paul]

You can't say play guys. You mad at guys for having low management, but then you saying, don't play guys.

[Bill Simmons]

No, no, no. Not load management. But I mean, Tibbs goes to short rotations probably earlier in the season than most. He really. Because he is.

[Rich Paul]

What I like about Tibbs is he's always had that.

[Bill Simmons]

He gets you competitive right away. He cares about winning this game, and that gets your franchise to a certain level of competitiveness and professionalism and all that stuff. But because he is focusing on winning every single game throughout the regular season, playing both sides of the ball, the whole thing. There's a certain limit at the playoffs. I bring all this up to say, Mike Brown was not the first guy I had in mind for the Knicks, but he seems to be the right Guy for the job, for them to take the next step.

[Rich Paul]

Well, he was the familiar pick. He was the safe pick. He was a tenured pick also, because when you think about it, he went to the finals. He been to the. I don't know. I can't even tell you how many times Mike Brown's been to the finals as a coach in general at this point. We know he went as a head coach in 07. He went as an assistant in Golden State, I think more than once. Right. So when you really put everything on the board, I mean, who's actually more suited? But let me ask you this question. This leads to something. Do you think Tibbs was. Sometimes guys become head coaches because they just become head coaches. But do you think they have more value as assistant head coaches?

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah. By the way, I brought up Josh McDaniels earlier. When you look at the Patriots, when they went bananas offensively, it was Josh McDaniels as the OC then he gets a head coaching job. Now, usually this happens with defensive coordinators, right? And Keyshawn Johnson always used to say, when we were doing radio, I want a defensive coordinator with dandruff on the shoulders, like an older guy. Cause he doesn't. He doesn't have ambition to be a head coach. He's just doing his job. And Josh McDaniels is like that. Tried as a head coach, didn't exactly work out. Now he's back with the Pats as the OC and the. And it looks right again. Right. And if the Pats wind up winning a Super bowl with Drake, May and Vrabel, it's McDaniels who will straddle the Belichick, Brady, Vrabel, May eras. Right. Like, it's interesting to me. There's like an example of an offensive head coach, Tex Winter with Phil Jackson in Chicago, in la. It's the same thing. It works, right? I. Yes. I believe that Thibodeau. Thibodeau is a head coach.

[Rich Paul]

Clemens was also a big piece of that coaching staff, too.

[Bill Simmons]

Thibodeau, to me, is a. A coach. As I said, if you want to get your organization competitive again, bring Tibbs in as a head coach. If you want to win a championship, he's basically your D coordinator. Like, he's basically your assistant coach that's coaching up the ds.

[Rich Paul]

So do you think some coaches, he'd.

[Bill Simmons]

Be a good fit with d'? Antoni? Yes, if d' Antoni's the head coach.

[Rich Paul]

But let me ask you a question. Do you think that some coaches Cause it's so confusing because you want to be like you coach to become a head coach. But there's almost this world where it's like, nah, man, I'm going to overpay you. Because sometimes organizations is like, oh, we can't pay him that. He's not a head coach. Well, if it, if it impacts winning, then pay him to stay.

[Bill Simmons]

There was a pitching coach, Lee Mazzone with the. Leo Mazzone with the Atlanta braves in the 90s. Every single pitcher that they took off the scrap peep had a great season. A great season. And a certain point you say, okay, it's not just that he has Maddux and Smoltz and Glavine, you know, Jared Wright or whoever it is, the Agrab has career years with this dude. And I used to think, who cares what pitching coaches normally make? If I was a team, even a small market team, you grab a guy like Leo Mazzone and you say, whatever you're making there, put a zero on the end of it. Cause if you're. You can't pay $8 million to a pitching coach and really, you'll give that to a mediocre veteran who's not going to really help you that much. You wouldn't take that to fix your whole pitching staff.

[Rich Paul]

Well, see, but here's the thing. This where. When you talk about ownership, this is where ownership actually comes into play. Because you need the deep pockets to be able to make these type of decisions. It's not gonna be the salary decisions. They are what they are. But it's these type of decisions that I think can take things overboard. But before we go, I wanna say something or not take things overboard that can, that can make things consistent. Right.

[Bill Simmons]

Or get it to the next level. You mentioned it. He's not satisfied. Yeah. You always want it. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You keep it at the next level.

[Bill Simmons]

Because it takes that because the league is adjusting to you. You got to get back.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. So you need, you need that backing from your ownership to be able to do these things. But I want to say something. I really want to say, like, at some point, you know, this, this senseless gun violence has to really come to an end.

[Bill Simmons]

I can't. I can't because I can't do it.

[Rich Paul]

You know?

[Bill Simmons]

And I want what happened.

[Rich Paul]

I don't want to get into anything political.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm just saying we can. But what I'm saying is, Rich, what happened? And normally I'm the one who, who, who would say, talk about gun laws and the gun lobby and the NRA and all that stuff. That's not what yesterday was about. That is not what.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I'm talking about Brown University.

[Bill Simmons]

I am talking about Brown University, and I'm talking about. That's not what that was about.

[Rich Paul]

Australia, Right?

[Bill Simmons]

And as a Jewish man, let me just tell you, it wasn't about the issue yesterday. And Mbandi was not about gun violence. It was about antisemitism. And that's something. I'm so upset about it that I really don't want to talk about it. But that's what, that's what we are supposed to.

[Rich Paul]

But what about the Brown universe? I just. My prayers go out.

[Bill Simmons]

It looks like the same thing.

[Rich Paul]

Because really.

[Bill Simmons]

Yes, it does.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you know that better than me, but it's just unfortunate, man. So I just wanted to say unfortunate.

[Bill Simmons]

Is an understatement, prayer out to those.

[Rich Paul]

Families and those communities, because it's just.

[Bill Simmons]

It's the right sentiment, Rich. And I can tell you that I was so happy to have sports to concentrate on, to take my mind off it, because it is, It's, It's. It's making me, you know, like I'm doing the first night of Hanukkah with my daughter last night. And Hanukkah is about thousands of years ago. Jews are being persecuted and they fought back. And that's really what the Maccabees. That's what Hanukkah's really about. And on the eve, this stuff happens on opposite sides of the world. On opposite sides of the world. But it's the same old. If you're Jewish, you know, it's the same old story. And Jewish people are looking around right now saying, where are our allies? Because it feels like it's been. There's a level of tolerance of antisemitism now around the world that is sickening. And so when I do a holiday, even like Hanukkah, which is not a big serious holiday in the Jewish. But it is. But it's a real. It's based on actual events. And, you know, I talked to my daughter about that, that this is that. And the fact that. Because as we do it, I'm saying this is not just something that lives in a tradition that is disconnected from our reality, is very connected to our reality. One of the reasons, I think, that I always get invited to the cookout, so to speak, Right? And that's because growing up as a Jewish person who understands your history, you identify with oppressed people, and when you see that stuff pop up against any persecuted group, you're like, no, no, not okay. And you want to be an ally to that group of people. And Jewish people right now are looking around going, where are our allies? Yeah, 100%. Now you brought that up. Now I'm going to take my mind off it because I'm really upset about it. But I'm excited for those.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, the RPs.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You got yours, right?

[Bill Simmons]

I got mine. Can you show people the label on that?

[Rich Paul]

The logo?

[Bill Simmons]

The logo. It's not visible.

[Rich Paul]

Actually, I'm wearing a. This is like one of the first sample pairs I have right now.

[Bill Simmons]

So I get this. I get this. I know it's a hard term from what we just talked about.

[Rich Paul]

No, it's all good. We need to end on a light note.

[Bill Simmons]

I get these pairs from Rich. And the logo, if you look at it closely, it looks like an R, but also a P. It's so fresh.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, we talked about that.

[Bill Simmons]

Did we? On this show.

[Rich Paul]

It's David Creech. Yeah, we talked about that on the first time. But again. But again, excited. You know, I have a great partner in New Balance. I think we really crushed this. This. Like I said, the story behind them is, you know, just. It's part of what we just talked about, like, really being unbothered by all the BS and really being able to come together as a community. Being able to persevere and, you know, really push through and be motivated by a number of things.

[Bill Simmons]

Launch party tonight.

[Rich Paul]

We're gonna have a real surreal vibe. A real vibe.

[Bill Simmons]

Am I supposed to wear my rps?

[Rich Paul]

You could do whatever you want. You should if you want to be confident.

[Bill Simmons]

I'm break them out.

[Rich Paul]

We gonna cut a rubber. But it's real vibey. You've never been to one of my vibes? No. It's chill. It's not all rah. It's really, you know, you have. You'll have a good time. But I'm excited. I'm excited.

[Bill Simmons]

Now, that is. That is tonight. And then tomorrow it's somebody's birthday. Now that's the cue. The birthday is the cue.

[Rich Paul]

It is my birthday Tomorrow it is.

[Bill Simmons]

How old are you? How old are you?

[Rich Paul]

Tomorrow I'll be 45.

[Bill Simmons]

45?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Bill Simmons]

Not bad.

[Rich Paul]

Come back like Jordan. Win the four or five made to play games with you.

[Bill Simmons]

You don't want to see what's in there.

[Rich Paul]

Is this a gift from you? Max, it.

[Bill Simmons]

No, it's from everybody. It's from.

[Rich Paul]

I was about to say you only do Lord Piano or Cuccinelli, but I take Krispy Kreme.

[Bill Simmons]

You did take Krispy Kreme all day. Yeah, Chris Rock was right about Krispy Kreme, man. It's like you fiend for it. Yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

How'd you know I like Krispy Kreme donuts?

[Bill Simmons]

Well, this.

[Rich Paul]

Once again, we need a Krispy Kreme sponsorship.

[Bill Simmons]

I mean, they're kind. Yeah, they're getting free. Free plug right now.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, not for long. Is this all glaze? Smells good.

[Bill Simmons]

Glaze. Glaze is your favorite, right?

[Rich Paul]

Glaze was my favorite, but this box is hard. What's going on with this box?

[Bill Simmons]

Would you like me to open it for you?

[Rich Paul]

Oh, I have it. Oh, perfect.

[Bill Simmons]

There you go.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, this is great.

[Bill Simmons]

Although, happy birthday, brother. I'll see you tonight.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, yeah. We'll celebrate tonight.

[Bill Simmons]

We'll celebrate tonight. And then we got another one of these on Wednesday.

[Rich Paul]

Here's the thing. Tonight, I want you to do me a favor.

[Bill Simmons]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I want you to pay close attention to the DJ.

[Bill Simmons]

All right?

[Rich Paul]

His name is DJ Mill.

[Bill Simmons]

DJ Mill. Got it.

[Rich Paul]

And he DJs. All types of. Of events and parties. Don't matter. He's a part of this group that two DJs, DJ Mill and DJ Steph Floss. But DJ Mill is tonight. They call the good guys, but DJ Mills tonight.

[Bill Simmons]

There it is.

[Rich Paul]

You go book them.

[Bill Simmons]

I'll see you on Wednesday.

[Rich Paul]

I'll see you on Wednesday.

[Bill Simmons]

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