Creating a Championship Team, and Best NBA Duos of All Time

Summary

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Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

Episode: Creating a Championship Team, and Best NBA Duos of All Time

Date: March 13, 2026
Podcast Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

In this dynamic episode, Max Kellerman and super-agent Rich Paul discuss what it takes to build a championship-level NBA roster, reflect on memorable NBA duos throughout history, and dig deep into the intricacies of basketball culture and fandom. The hosts also tackle current league storylines, including recent hot streaks, evolving basketball strategy, and the psychology behind sports idolization. The conversation is a blend of insight, humor, and the hosts' authentic chemistry.

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Key Topics & Segments

1. Movies in Modern Culture & Chalamet’s “Opera” Comment

[00:31–04:13]

• Max reacts to backlash against Timothée Chalamet’s commentary on movies becoming marginalized, like opera and ballet.
  • Max: “He’s clearly making this point by saying he doesn’t want movies to be in that situation. And everyone…bash this guy. That stuff bothers me. I hate that.” (01:35)
• Rich shares nostalgia for the “date value” of going to the movies and how the experience brings people together.
  • Rich: “I think going to the movies with your girl could actually help the relationship tremendously…a little touch on the knee…” (02:20)
• Both discuss the affordability of movies compared to other live entertainment.
  • Max: “Movies should really market themselves. Hey, you want a good night out?” (03:08)

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2. Celtics, Thunder, and the SGA Streak

[06:15–10:19]

• Discussion shifts to recent NBA games, with Kellan noting SGA’s new record for consecutive 20-point games.
  • Max: “The significant thing is that it’s more than anyone ever…that level of consistency means something.” (07:12)
  • Rich: “It’s always those guys that you don’t expect. Kawhi…the season he’s having. Unbelievable. Giannis was the 15th pick.” (08:02)

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3. The 8–15 Draft Pick Sweet Spot

[08:01–10:19]

• Debate on how late-lottery draft picks often produce franchise stars.
  • Rich: “I wonder if it’s more franchise guys in that pocket than it is in the pocket of one to two.” (08:30)
• Braden Burrys highlighted as a potential future star from that range.
  • Rich: “He’s a two-way guard…going to be able to come right in and play.” (08:43)
• Max emphasizes the importance of basketball IQ.
  • Max: “If you pick a dude and say him, it’s because of a high basketball IQ. That’s the number one thing.” (10:19)

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4. What Builds a Championship Team?

[10:27–14:14]

• Max lays out five critical components:
  1. An on-floor extension of the coach
  2. High basketball IQ across the rotation
  3. System that fits players (not vice versa)
  4. Sufficient size
  5. Committed defense
  • Max: “All the guys who play real minutes have to have a high IQ…You need a system that fits the players…” (10:46–11:15)
• Rich adds the need for a balanced roster and a “go-to guy who makes teammates better in key moments, not ‘me moments.’” (11:47)

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5. Celtics Contenders? Playoff Matchups & Brown/Tatum Dynamics

[14:14–17:47]

• Both analyze how the Celtics’ recent close losses may be more encouraging than they appear.
  • Max: “I’m very, very interested to see…how do those two [Tatum and Brown] work at the end of a tight game against a likely finals opponent.” (14:46)
• Rich: “If they win it this year…to win when you’re not expected to, that’s a different feather in the cap.” (16:15)
• Both examine Celtics-Knicks playoff scenarios and the intricacies of matchup-based basketball.

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6. Spurs’ Dominance, Wemby’s Impact & the State of Title Contenders

[17:47–21:24]

• Max lauds Wembanyama’s transformative effect on the Spurs and the NBA as a whole.
  • Max: “Who I consider the best player in basketball...Wemby…changes the game more than anyone else.” (17:56)
• Discussion on the fluctuating nature of best-team status in today’s league, but Max insists: “Spurs, when they have matched up with other Western Conference teams…are better than the other team.” (20:27)
• Rich: “I love the Spurs. You’re never going to get anything negative for me…” (20:42)

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7. NBA Duos: Murray/Jokic, Measuring True Partnerships

[21:24–29:21]

• Max raises Jamal Murray–Jokic’s statistical synergy and the meaning of a “real duo.”
  • Max: “Are they the best one, two punch in basketball ever?...As a one two, who was your best duo?” (22:56–24:19)
• Both lists off historic NBA duos, debating criteria for true pairings:
  • Shaq & Kobe, Jordan & Pippen, Magic & Kareem, Bird & McHale, KD & Steph, LeBron & Wade.
  • Rich: “You can put [Jordan & Pippen] together, but they weren’t really a one two.” (24:16)
  • Max: “KD and Steph. Done. Those are the five.” (29:08)
• Memorable back-and-forth:
  • Rich: “You don’t really know basketball.” (29:28)
  • Max: “I was the one who came up with it, not you.” (29:29)

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8. Playoff All-Stars vs. Regular Season Stars

[21:52–22:16]

• Rich: “Keep your regular season All Star. Give me my playoff All Star.”
• Max references Jimmy Butler’s consistent playoff excellence.
  • Max: “If you said, is Jimmy Butler a top five player most seasons, no one would say yes until the playoffs. And everyone says yes.” (22:02)

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9. Luka’s Leap (and Max’s ‘Credit’)

[37:11–40:16]

• Max jokingly claims his public criticism triggered Luka Doncic’s recent hot streak, referencing a blog that tracked Luka’s improvement post-critique.
  • Max: “Since I did that, it opened the floodgates. Everyone’s been on Luka…” (38:30)
• Rich: “I saw your shot…You try to take credit for a guy that’s six-seven with a handle and a jump shot…”
  • Max: "Do you understand the great motivators, Rich, the Pat Rileys, the Phil Jacksons, the Max Kellermans..." (40:02)
• Playful banter about Max’s basketball skills (or lack thereof).

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10. MVP and Coach of the Year Debates

[42:11–43:44]

• Rich argues for Kawhi Leonard in the MVP race and Ty Lue (Clippers coach) for Coach of the Year.
  • Rich: “In order to win, you have to have that relationship with players…” (43:27)
• Max: “I think both LA coaches are in the coach of the year conversation…” (43:20)

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11. Five Minute Max & The Psychology of NBA Fandom

[44:00–51:03]

• Max’s “Five Minute Max” explores why fans (especially Kobe fans) fiercely defend their idols and question historic achievements like Wilt’s 100-point game.
  • Max: “…if you think all the greatest players are all from when you were experiencing your formative years, come on, man.” (48:33)
  • Rich: “What I was really taken back by were former players and people in the media…trying to discredit it, whether you were a fan of Kobe or not.” (49:12)

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12. NBA Evolution: Three-Pointer Debate

[57:49–67:44]

• Listener email asks about the future evolution of basketball.
• Max advocates for rule tweaks to balance the three-point revolution, suggesting incentives for other types of shots.
  • Max: “You can incentivize people to play the way you want them to play. That’s why people shoot threes, because it’s worth an extra point.” (58:35)
• Rich (as agent and purist) resists dramatic changes, preferring diversity in play styles.
  • Rich: “If you have a roster that doesn’t include great shooting and your system says shoot more threes, then that’s bad on your part…” (62:14)

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13. Cultural Interludes: Harlem Nights & Musical Vibes

[51:25–74:51]

• Fun detour into movies (“Harlem Nights”) and music (A Tribe Called Quest, Outkast, Prince vs. Michael Jackson).
  • Rich: “Tribe is a vibe.” (71:11)
  • Both agree Prince would be a cooler hang.
• Announcement: A “very special guest” is joining the next episode, generating anticipation.

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Notable Quotes

• “You need a balanced roster that has IQ that exists within. Obviously you need a go-to guy…willing to make his teammates better in key moments. The guy that focuses on the ‘me moments’—you cannot win with that guy.”
  —Rich Paul, [11:47]

• “If your team can rely on you for that offense for season after season, that means something. He is a genuinely clutch player.”
  —Max Kellerman, on SGA [07:12]

• “Keep your regular season All Star. Give me my playoff All Star.”
  —Rich Paul, [21:56]

• “Shaq and Kobe are the answer…they were both as basically as good as history has ever produced at what they did, and they were on the same team.”
  —Max Kellerman, [25:52]

• “If you think all the greatest players are all from when you were experiencing your formative years, come on, man…But Kobe was incredible. He was among the greatest ever…He doesn’t need to be the greatest ever for you to love him.”
  —Max Kellerman, [48:33–48:49]

• “We cannot turn a diamond…into a fugazi.”
  —Rich Paul, on complicating basketball with gimmicky rules, [66:46]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Chalamet/movies & culture: 00:31–04:13
• SGA/Thunder/Celtics analysis: 06:15–10:19
• Draft “sweet spot”/player IQ: 08:01–10:19
• Building a championship team: 10:27–14:14
• NBA duos debate: 21:24–29:21
• Luka criticism/max’s influence (joking): 37:11–40:16
• Playoff vs. regular season stars: 21:52–22:16
• NBA evolution, three-point debate: 57:49–67:44
• Psychology of fandom/legacy: 44:00–51:03
• Music/movies interlude: 51:25–74:51
• First special guest tease: 72:33–73:50

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Memorable Moments & Banter

• Max takes cheeky credit for Luka Doncic’s performance spike: “It’s thanks to me…since I criticized Luca, here are his games, and he’s been going off.” (38:30)
• The hosts rib each other over basketball skill and knowledge:
  • Rich: “You don’t really know basketball.”
  • Max: “I was the one who came up with [KD & Steph], not you.” (29:28–29:32)
• A running joke about Rich Paul being “one of the best shooters ever” versus Steph, Klay, and Ray Allen (40:26–41:15)
• Reflection on the emotional investment fans have in the “idols” of their youth, and how that warps perspectives on history.
• Rich’s wisdom on player incentives: “I always think of how it affects players…I'm not changing anything.”

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Listener Q&A Highlights

• Kobe’s scoring mentality: Both agree Kobe would have chased the record if within reach; teammates rallying behind Bam’s historic game was celebrated.
• NBA’s future evolution: Max proposes incentive tweaks to diversify scoring; Rich insists on team-by-team strategic diversity, wary of over-tinkering.
• Tribe Called Quest omission: Both hosts agree it’s an all-time group, with memorable albums as background vibes.

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Tone and Chemistry

• The rapport is sharp, playful, and competitive—each host pushing the other intellectually while trading well-timed jokes and friendly barbs.
• The tone balances deep basketball analysis with cultural commentary and lighthearted storytelling.

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Next Week’s Tease

• The hosts hint at a “very special guest”—described as perhaps the coolest person on the planet with a laid-back charisma. Details are kept secret, but excitement is built for the next episode.

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For further discussion or to email the show:
[e-mail]

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Transcript

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[Max Kellerman]

So rich, something that's been bothering me. You see this reaction to Chalamet?

[Rich Paul]

No, I didn't.

[Max Kellerman]

So Timothee Chalamet, who's like nominated for an Oscar, he makes some innocuous comment, right? The comment, something to the effect of, you see the way the movie industry is going. It's not as important in popular culture anymore. No one has the attention span. People don't go to the movie theaters anymore since COVID especially. But also you can get it direct to your house. So he made some point, like basically to Matthew McConaughey he was talking to. Basically he doesn't want to be in a situation like what happened to opera and ballet. Meaning opera and ballet used to be popular culture art forms that are now just relegated to kind of high cultural art forms on the margins because new mediums and stuff like new media and new art forms replaced them in the popular consciousness. And so like you need endowments from the arts a lot of times to have opera, ballet because they can't commercially support themselves a lot of the time. Not all the time, but usually. He's clearly making this point by saying he doesn't want movies to be in that situation. And everyone, like there's all this backlash from people who are either too stupid to understand his point and there are a lot of dumb people, like, you know, so maybe they really just don't. Their comprehension is so low that they misinterpret what he's saying. Or else this is my chance to virtue signal about opera and ballet and bash this guy. That stuff bothers me. I hate that.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. First of all, Timothy is a friend of mine, so obviously I'm biased. I'm not going to talk bad about him. I didn't hear what happened. But I want to ask you.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Is going to the movies with your girl still the same, have the same value as it once had?

[Max Kellerman]

I don't think so.

[Rich Paul]

I think it should.

[Max Kellerman]

I think.

[Rich Paul]

I think going to the movies with your girl could actually help the relationship tremendously. And the fact that well, it's just like a thing. You get dressed, you go out, you have conversation on the way there. You know, a little touch on the knee, inner thigh, you know, a kiss, whatever.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, you're not supposed to do dinner and movie. You're supposed to do movie and dinner because you go to the movies. Now you got something to talk about at dinner.

[Rich Paul]

That's. Listen, I never knew that. But being a true player that you are, Max, I appreciate you giving me that game. The thing about it is I really, really think so, man. Like, I enjoy going to the movies.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what else? How movies ought to market themselves nowadays. Think about the cost of going to a sporting event or a concert, right? Astronomical.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. Much cheaper. Cost you $1,000 for you and two

[Max Kellerman]

kids or the theater. Even if you go to a like a high level Broadway play, it's going to break the bank. Movies should really market themselves. Hey, you want a good night out?

[Rich Paul]

$100 or less.

[Max Kellerman]

Much less. Really. So especially if it's just a date, like what's the movie going to cost you? So like, well, if you go.

[Rich Paul]

Well, if you go to. Go to. I pick the drinks. Could get a little high. Yeah, you know what I don't like about that?

[Max Kellerman]

I can't stay. Like the seat reclines. You just fed me. I'm always underslept. I'm out. I can't stay awake.

[Rich Paul]

You're going to sleep.

[Max Kellerman]

Let me tell you something. What Chalamet said about opera or ballet, because you really have to be educated in those art forms in order to really understand and get anything from it. If you put, if you substitute it in the opera or ballet, those lazy boy chairs that go back like in the ipick and you fed people. Not a single person would be awake now.

[Rich Paul]

If you fall asleep in a ballet, they should put a tutu on you. No, they should. You should not be able to fall asleep. No, seriously, that should be your punishment if you fall asleep in the valley. It's disrespectful. Yeah, it really is.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, well listen, you ready to do this?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Max Kellerman]

Game over with Max Kellerman.

[Rich Paul]

Rich Paul [e-mail] Max, do we have emails today?

[Max Kellerman]

We, you know, we do emails every day nowadays.

[Rich Paul]

Oh yeah, that's right.

[Max Kellerman]

When was the last time we missed emails?

[Rich Paul]

Was a Friday. Yep. You don't have no job? I actually have a job.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I actually do have other jobs in this, but you're right, it's all in media, so it's not like Real jobs. Yeah. This episode of Game over is presented to you by Loom. If your organization runs on endless email threads and status meetings, teams feel stuck unstuck them. With Loom, the AI first video platform by Atlassian, teams record their screen and share a link so others review on their own time. AI makes recording and editing one click and add summaries, action items and searchable transcripts so everyone gets clarity in minutes, not meetings. Replace unnecessary meetings, speed up approvals and onboard faster. With Loom, you remove communication friction. It's a team changer. Try loom [e-mail]. Rich. I would love to start with the Celtics today because I would love to

[Rich Paul]

start with knowing who make those pants. Is that purple label, Ralph?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Purple, yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

No, not purple. I think regular blue label. I think. No, no, no. Like, yeah, whatever that regular Ralph Lauren thing is.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, it's blue and purple. It used to be blue, purple, black, but now it's just blue and purple and you got different.

[Max Kellerman]

They're trying to get rid of this closed snob in me because I seen him, I was like, but it's not this fancy one. It's like.

[Rich Paul]

But I. Yeah, they're nice. Can never go wrong. You have those forever.

[Max Kellerman]

Sponsored by Ralph. This is ridiculous. Shout outs on this show, that's fine.

[Rich Paul]

But they'll never sponsor. They don't do that.

[Max Kellerman]

Why would it?

[Rich Paul]

Plus but what we can do is we can be dressed right. They'll send us good enough product. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

That is sponsored.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Yeah, I'll do it. So I'd love to start with the Celtics because I have something to say. Jacoby on his pod said something about the Celtics that I love. I want to get to it, but Thunder beat the Celtics. And before we say anything, SGA broke Wilt's 20 point record of consecutive games with 20 points.

[Rich Paul]

How many games was it now consecutive?

[Max Kellerman]

I don't care enough about it.

[Rich Paul]

127.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, 120 something. But. And the reason I don't care enough about it is, is like. Well, this is a whole separate conversation.

[Guest/Caller]

Like.

[Max Kellerman]

Like what really? What does the number of games actually tell you? To me, the significant thing is that it's more than anyone ever. Right? Not the exact number for sga because the level. The two things about sga when I watch him, Rich, I am tempted to say he's overrated. There are other guys better than him. He's in the perfect situation.

[Rich Paul]

And I disagree.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I just. I mean, he's in the perfect situation. This and that. But there are two Things that override that. You just got to give it up. Three things. One, he's a two way player. I love that. The other is that level of consistency means something. Right. If. If your team can rely on you for that offense for season after season, that that means something. And the third thing is he is a genuinely clutch player. When the game gets tight, he is able to consistently deliver. And I think those things, like I was going to say the MVP is really Wemby or Jokic. He absolutely must be discussed.

[Rich Paul]

Absolutely. Yeah. But I wonder what the analytics say about draft picks from 8 to 15.

[Max Kellerman]

I know you brought that up before.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Because when I look at Shea, it's always those guys that you don't expect. Kawhi, the season he's having. Unbelievable. Giannis was the 15th pick.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

When you. Kobe was the 13th pick. It's just something to be said about

[Max Kellerman]

in that range where it's like we're not sure we like them. There's upside but. But the floor we don't think is high enough to draft them in the top three.

[Rich Paul]

But I. I wonder if it's more franchise guys in that pocket than it is in the pocket of one to two.

[Max Kellerman]

What would that mean for this draft? Who do you see 8 to 15 where you're like that might be the steal.

[Rich Paul]

Braden Burrys.

[Max Kellerman]

Why?

[Rich Paul]

Because he's a two way guard. He's going to be able to come right in and play. How tall is. He's 6, 5, 6 6. But I think his game is going to allow him to be able to play playoff level basketball at a very young age. He's going to be one of those guys that.

[Max Kellerman]

What about his game makes you think

[Rich Paul]

that he plays both. He's a. First of all, he's a big guard. Like a big guard. And that's where the league is going. The league is going to these big guards now to be smaller.

[Max Kellerman]

They want to switch it and stuff

[Rich Paul]

and you can't defend to be a smaller guard. You have to be exceptional today. And we've seen it.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

I don't consider Tyrese Maxey a small guard. He's six three. But. But he's Brolic.

[Guest/Caller]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

When you look at a Darius Garland, he's just dynamic like you're.

[Max Kellerman]

But Maxi and even Ant. To me the reason like when they say who's going to be the next best player in the league, to me their height actually works. Like if Ant was six' six or Maxi was six' six, I might be like he's going to be the Best player in the world one day. Actually, that height makes me say among the best players in the world.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I can see that. But what I'm saying is for buries, he just has that size that you want in a guard. And then I just think the ability to play both sides of the ball nowadays, when you can come in and play both sides of the ball and be a part of that rotation to where a coach believes in you in real minutes on the floor defensively.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but see, I know you say if you pick a dude and say him, it's because of a High basketball IQ. Oh, well, that's the number one thing.

[Rich Paul]

100%. That's. That's the thing you have to have. If you, if I asked you give me, not in order, but give me the top five things that creates a championship team, what would it be?

[Max Kellerman]

I'd say the number one.

[Rich Paul]

Not top five, just five things.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. The first thing that jumps to mind is you need a place player on the floor who's like an extension of the coach and who enforces or embodies the philosophy of the team. Right. You need that guy on your team. I would say everyone has to have a high iq.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

All the guys who play real minutes have to have a high iq.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

You need a system that fits the players. Right. As opposed to try to jam the

[Rich Paul]

players into a system iq. And you need some general.

[Max Kellerman]

You need some size. Yeah. And you need to play defense. If I'm thinking about, did I miss something? Those are the things that I.

[Rich Paul]

No, I think those all are common,

[Max Kellerman]

commonalities with championship teams.

[Rich Paul]

I think you need a balanced roster that has iq that exists within. Obviously you need a go to guy.

[Max Kellerman]

That's ga. You're describing the Thunder so far.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but a go to guy that is willing to make his teammates better in key moments. See, there's key moments and then there's me moments. The guy that focuses on the me moments. You cannot win with that guy. I don't care what anybody says.

[Max Kellerman]

People think like mj. No, actually, if Kerr or Paxton is open or something, they're getting the ball.

[Rich Paul]

Key moment guy. He's not a me moment guy.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

The guy that focuses on the me moments. You cannot win. No way, no how. When you talk about iq, where does the IQ start and stop? Because you're gonna play eight guys, right?

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

You don't need all eight of them to have crazy.

[Max Kellerman]

You need the majority of them too, though.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you need the offense initiators to have iq. What I mean by that is.

[Max Kellerman]

But Rich, I think you need. When you see teams with a great offensive initiator, high iq, but they're still not a great team. A lot of times it's because the passing from everybody else and the cutting and the.

[Rich Paul]

Well, this is what I was about to say.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. It's not done at a high enough level.

[Rich Paul]

Where does that. For me, obviously if you got 20 kids in the classroom, all of them not going to be Einstein. That's for damn sure. But if on the floor I can hit my big at the nail. High iq. Obviously the.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, you're saying key positions must have a high.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, because. Because that's extreme.

[Max Kellerman]

If your power forward back in the day at least is getting all the rebound. But even that Rich, when you think about the best power forwards who weren't even offensive players like Rodman jumps to mind.

[Rich Paul]

He had a high basketball Oakley. High iq. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, like really high IQ is probably the most important thing.

[Rich Paul]

Every position, skill set.

[Max Kellerman]

So the Thunder have all that, right?

[Rich Paul]

Thunder.

[Max Kellerman]

Plus they have sga.

[Rich Paul]

There's several teams that have it.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But Thunder is one. Celtics. Yes. You're talking about the teams that's in the running for winning because we can't name every team. But yes, Celtics have.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, let me. Let me say. Let me transition to the Celtics right now. Jacoby made the point that on his pod that the Celtics went.02 just now the last two games. But they really won. They're the winners of the last couple days. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Well, Jalen Brown got ejected, thrown out

[Max Kellerman]

of a game against.

[Rich Paul]

And then Tatum did play against the

[Max Kellerman]

spurs that they, they were in it. Okay. The spurs pulled away at the very end of the game. But. But we're in it until the end. And then last night. No Tatum. It comes down to really the final possession of the game. No Tatum. But I don't.

[Rich Paul]

We got what, 16 games left in the season.

[Max Kellerman]

Is it 16?

[Rich Paul]

You can't really. I'm not getting too bogged down about a win or a loss.

[Max Kellerman]

Right, right. That's what I'm saying. The fact that it was even competitive.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. I think we're at the point of the season where we know these teams last night. Is it a finals matchup? Possibly or not? The answer is yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

That could be a finals matchup. That's the only way we should look at these games going forward.

[Max Kellerman]

But what, what sucks about it for the, for from a fan's point of view about the Celtics, the way it broke down is I'm. I'm Very, very interested to see. We know that Tatum and Brown can win a title because they've done it. Right. I'm very interested to see, though, now the step forward that Brown has taken in terms of his role on the team this year, absent Tatum, now that Tatum's back as good as Tatum's looked in more limited action in the last, you know, when he got back, I wanted to see how do those two work at the end of a tight game against a likely finals opponent. Right. And in both games, we didn't get to see it. In neither game did we get to see it because they tossed Brown against the spurs and because Tatum didn't play last night. But in both games, it was close at the end. It would have been great to see how that. How that works.

[Rich Paul]

They're going to the playoffs. You're going to have time to see it. And I would say this. If they were to win it this year, I've been a lot. I've been around a lot of championship teams. If they were to win it this year, they could. It would be. I'm not going to say it would mean more because I don't know how they felt about the first one, but it would definitely show something a little more special because obviously when they won it, they were kind of expected to win it. This year, they're not expected to win it. So to win when you're not expected to, that's a.

[Max Kellerman]

Know who's hoping that they get out of the East?

[Rich Paul]

That's a different feather in the cap.

[Max Kellerman]

You know who's hoping they get out of the East? I'll bet.

[Rich Paul]

Who?

[Max Kellerman]

San Antonio. Knicks. Got them twice this year already. I think the Knicks style of play is a bad matchup for San Antonio.

[Rich Paul]

Well, matchups I can't tell you and.

[Max Kellerman]

But the Celtics could easily bump the Knicks if they're at full strength. I think. I think that's a great matchup. Celtics, Knicks. Because the Knicks have been playing as a unit all year and the Celtics have to figure it out with Tatum now. And maybe they're a little thinner than the Knicks.

[Rich Paul]

They're trying to think in terms of defending well, Derrick White, Brown, Richard off the bench. But I'm talking about defensively, though, because I'm. Only thing I'm thinking about is how do you guard the. Guard the pick and roll with Brunson. I'm just trying to think. Yeah. Trying to think of where that's at.

[Max Kellerman]

And the Knicks got a lot of

[Rich Paul]

shooting on the floor because when they wanted.

[Max Kellerman]

And they play defense well, the difference

[Rich Paul]

is when they won, was so easy to switch everything because you had Holiday, if you switch Tatum, if you switch,

[Max Kellerman]

you had a physical, excellent defensive guard.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

And you had Porzingis, who's like a super tall.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but I'm just saying, when you're able to switch everything and not lose anything defensively, that makes you better.

[Max Kellerman]

But I think also because they have a center now who can score and a center who can play some defense. But it's not the same guy where you have Porzingis. That's the same guy who can change you defensively because of his size.

[Rich Paul]

This one would be tougher. It would be tougher for them to win it.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

This one. So if they did win it, that would. That. That would show a lot.

[Max Kellerman]

So Nuggets beat the spurs without Wemby, by the way. They had to come all the way back on him.

[Rich Paul]

Castle was crazy last night. He was.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, listen, this is my point, Rich. They had to come all the way back on the spurs, and the spurs didn't have. Who I consider the best player in basketball. Like when he's on the floor, Wemby. Both ends of the floor changes the game to me more than anyone else, maybe. Okay. I like Jokic better on. You have to say Wemby's so much

[Rich Paul]

better defensive, but there's so many good players. You have to say one of the best players in basketball.

[Max Kellerman]

I think Wemby is.

[Rich Paul]

Because right now we can make the argument that Kawhi looks like the best player in basketball.

[Max Kellerman]

You can make whatever argument, but I think the winning argument right now is Wemby. And I looked it up. They. Do you know, the spurs without Wemby and a decent sample size because he's missed a bunch of games. The spurs have won two thirds of the games without Wemby. With Wemby, they win three quarters of the games. Rich, it's time to say, like, I don't know what's taking everyone so long. They have dominated OKC this year. They have beaten Denver when they've had Wemby on the road without Wemby. They came close to beating Denver. They have. They've beat. Except for the Knicks, who seem to be a bad matchup for them. The west coast teams, they're better than those guys. They beat them all the time.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but if you know the spurs, if you know the spurs organization, they would say, talk to us when we win.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm not. You're right. You don't know anything in the NBA till the playoffs. Are over then you know everything. Yeah, but right now they don't want anything premature to win the whole thing.

[Rich Paul]

They don't want anything prematurely. Talk to them.

[Max Kellerman]

Who would be your odds on favorite to win it?

[Rich Paul]

I would have to see the matchups. I would have to see this. I would have to see each, each playoffs series set in terms of the seating. And then I can give you a better answer to that.

[Max Kellerman]

I would say, okay, who's the best team in basketball? That changes every. Spurs are the best team in basketball.

[Rich Paul]

But it changes every night. We just talked about this.

[Max Kellerman]

It hasn't for the spurs, it doesn't change every night. Even without Wemby. A championship level team when they're healthy, barely gets by them.

[Rich Paul]

But here's what I'm saying.

[Max Kellerman]

Barely gets by them.

[Rich Paul]

We've been able to see dominant teams, right? We saw a 72 and 10 team. We saw a 73 and 9 team. We saw several teams win 66 plus games. Right? We saw teams have dominance. We saw the same team go to the finals. The same, the same two teams go to the finals four years in a row. We've seen that in today's league, any given night, teams get beat. So I can't necessarily see that.

[Max Kellerman]

Spurs. I'm just saying in the Western Conference, the Spurs, when they have matched up with other Western Conference teams at home and on the road are better than the other team. But you talk about. And the other team is okc, Denver. Just name a team.

[Rich Paul]

I love the Spurs. You're never going to get anything negative for me about the Spurs. I love the spurs. Everything from top to bottom. Yeah, and I also love the spurs club, which you've never been to.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I haven't.

[Rich Paul]

It's the best dining experience you can have in the NBA by far.

[Max Kellerman]

Hook your boy up. What's up?

[Rich Paul]

Well, you have to go to games. You have to actually get out and do something, man.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, that's out of the question.

[Rich Paul]

This is what.

[Max Kellerman]

Figure that one out.

[Rich Paul]

So you think they're going to doordash it to you from San Antonio?

[Max Kellerman]

Can they? Well, I mean, they do do our next to me it's on tv.

[Rich Paul]

Anything's possible. But no, seriously, when you go to the spurs club, it's the best restaurant in San Antonio by far.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, I'm in.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

So meantime, one thing that does become apparent, we brought this stat up because it was on TV like a week ago during, during a Nuggets game. The league leader and assists one player to another is Jamal Murray to Jokic. Right? And by the way, good for Jamal Murray, who every year is not quite an All Star during the regular season. And then when he's healthy in the playoffs, you go, oh, that's an All Star.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I'll say.

[Max Kellerman]

This year he's an All Star in the regular season. We already know that. He's a clutch player in the playoffs.

[Rich Paul]

Keep your regular season All Star. Give me my playoff All Star.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, I say this about Jimmy Butler all the time.

[Rich Paul]

I want the playoff All Star Jimmy Butler.

[Max Kellerman]

If you said, is Jimmy Butler a top five player most seasons, no one would say yes until the playoffs. And everyone says yes. That means he's a top five.

[Rich Paul]

Guess what?

[Max Kellerman]

That's what that means.

[Rich Paul]

Analytics don't show that.

[Max Kellerman]

They don't.

[Rich Paul]

That's how you sold a lemon.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, you can do analytics for the playoffs and show it about Butler.

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm saying yes, I'm saying when you look at the analytics of a player. Yeah, you Mr. Analytics. And they say. And then you say, oh, he did this, he did that. Chop that down to strictly these moments.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I get it. But you can.

[Rich Paul]

Is a key moment.

[Max Kellerman]

No question. No question. In the meantime, go ahead, make your point. So Murray to Jokic leads the league in assists. No one player has more assists to another player than Murray has to Jokic. Okay. Fourth in the league, at least as per game. I think it is fourth in the league is Jokic to Murray.

[Rich Paul]

No, we said this. That's incredible.

[Max Kellerman]

That's such a banana. So the question is this. Are they the best one, two punch in basketball ever? No, right now in the game today as just as a 1, 2. And by the way, forget about Aaron Gordon, who's a great addition.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, that's not really an argument. But they. I mean, is there a 1, 2.

[Max Kellerman]

You maxi and Edgecomb. Eventually, but right now.

[Rich Paul]

But, but the problem, the problem with this is when you talk about a one, two punch, it has to come with balance. Cause see, we can say that the two top two guys on the team, you could say, okay, when Tatum and Brown is healthy, that. But that's not a balanced thing because you don't necessarily see them in pick and roll actions for each other. What not.

[Max Kellerman]

I see what you're saying. In other words, how are they working together? Yes, but when Tatum and Brown are on the team, their influence on the game because they're both on the floor.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but that's not a. That's not really a one, two punch. That's two guys on the Team. That's.

[Max Kellerman]

You're making a good distinction. But I. I would say, like Malone,

[Rich Paul]

like Shaq and Kobe. Stockton. Okay, get, like, even with Mike and Pippen. Mike and Pippen was the best two guys on a team. You can put on a team together. Right, but they weren't really a one two.

[Max Kellerman]

I understand what you mean, but. So as a one two, who was your best duo?

[Rich Paul]

Give me your top five deals. All time.

[Max Kellerman]

All time.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Jordan and Pippen. Shaq.

[Rich Paul]

Well, not top five. Five. Give me five.

[Max Kellerman]

Jordan and Pippin. Shaq and Kobe. Those are the two obvious ones. I'm missing a big one.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, you are.

[Max Kellerman]

LeBron and Wade.

[Rich Paul]

But.

[Max Kellerman]

But.

[Rich Paul]

But they're not a dude.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I think LeBron has three. I mean, on three of those teams,

[Max Kellerman]

people would say Jerry Weston, Wilt Chamberlain. That was before my time.

[Rich Paul]

Now, wait a minute.

[Max Kellerman]

I didn't have a. Stuff that I saw.

[Guest/Caller]

I would not put.

[Max Kellerman]

I would not put stock.

[Rich Paul]

I wasn't even born.

[Max Kellerman]

I would not put Stockton and Malone there. Who am I missing? I'm missing someone. Some in. Like Shaq and Kobe are the. Is the answer in a way, because they were both as basically as good as history has ever produced at what they did, and they were on the same team basically in their primes. So, like, that. That's the answer. Jordan and Pippen had maybe more value than Shaq and Kobe, but it was heavily weighted toward mj. Like Pippen, as great as he was, was not quite what Kobe or Shaq were at their best. So who am I missing? I'm missing someone big. I know. Hakeem and Drexler.

[Rich Paul]

No, in the old times.

[Max Kellerman]

You talking about in college?

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no. I'm saying. You're saying on the. Yeah, I wouldn't put them there either. No, no. Are you. What about Duncan and Parker?

[Max Kellerman]

No one.

[Rich Paul]

They won five.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but a lot of that was Ginobili. That was a trio, you know, like Parker. As great as Parker. Parker was a great player. He was. No, no, that was a. It wasn't 1.1a. That was Duncan and Ginobi and Parker.

[Rich Paul]

You're missing. And again, this is not Mr. Bias, but it's just fact.

[Max Kellerman]

Kyrie and LeBron.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, they won.

[Max Kellerman]

Could be.

[Rich Paul]

There's no. Could be.

[Max Kellerman]

No, but I'm saying that was one year that they really did it like that. That they really did it like that.

[Rich Paul]

What you mean? They went to the finals three years in a row.

[Max Kellerman]

Kyrie got hurt in that finals.

[Rich Paul]

It don't matter. We're talking about the season. It's not just based on the finals.

[Max Kellerman]

No. Then I wouldn't put. I wouldn't put them there. Quite. No.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. LeBron and Wade.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but close.

[Rich Paul]

LeBron and AD.

[Max Kellerman]

No, that didn't. Again. Didn't happen long enough. They got one.

[Rich Paul]

What do you mean? They play six years together.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, but seven. The proof in the. Oh, I'll tell you who. Bird and McHale. Magicarene.

[Rich Paul]

Pardon me, I apologize.

[Max Kellerman]

Magic. Let me do that again. Let me do that again.

[Rich Paul]

No, it's not a right or wrong.

[Max Kellerman]

It is a right or wrong. No, no, there's a right or wrong in my lifetime. Jordan and Pippin. Kobe and Shaq. Magic and Kareem. Bird and Mikhail. Yes, and who else did I say? I said someone else.

[Rich Paul]

Kobe and Shaq.

[Max Kellerman]

I did that already. What the hell is the matter with me right now? Well, we got robbed that already.

[Rich Paul]

We got robbed of Penny and Shaq. We got robbed of Penny and Shaq.

[Max Kellerman]

I said one other. And now I can't think of it. I don't know though. I got those four.

[Rich Paul]

Well, just go by the teams. Nobody on the Knicks. Nobody on the Pistons. No, Nobody on the Warriors.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, LeBron and Wade.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, LeBron.

[Max Kellerman]

LeBron and Wade. Especially in that second ch. In the second season together because Wade was still kind of close to his prime.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, so just for clarity, the top duos of all time in the NBA.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. You pick Jordan. Pippen.

[Rich Paul]

Jordan, Pippen.

[Max Kellerman]

Shaq, Kobe.

[Rich Paul]

Shaq, Kobe, magic, Kareem, Bird, McHale, Bird, Mikhail, LeBron and Wade.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that fifth slot I'd have to think about. But right now let's put him in there and say till I can think of something else.

[Rich Paul]

Who else would you put?

[Max Kellerman]

Only because Wade was a little bit slipping by the time LeBron had peaked there. It didn't line up exactly well.

[Rich Paul]

We didn't say had to be perfect, but they went to four straight finals.

[Max Kellerman]

They did and they won two.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah. So I'm saying. But who else would you.

[Max Kellerman]

Who else would you put like again in history? You got to put. Jerry west and Will Chamberlain were on the same.

[Rich Paul]

Jerry West. I mean, that's.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, they don't we know because it's before our time.

[Rich Paul]

Before our time.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, let's say modern NBA after the absorption of the abn. Starting with a three point shot, Right?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I think you. I think you. It was really good.

[Max Kellerman]

Say Robinson and Duncan that one year.

[Rich Paul]

No, that's not a. See, that's. If that's the case, then you gotta go Parker and Duncan.

[Max Kellerman]

Nah, you can't do. Because Parker was more valuable than Ginobili on that team. If he was, it was by.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, I think he was. I think he was. He won finals mvp.

[Max Kellerman]

I might even say. You know what I would say. I think Ginobili ranks higher for two guards than Parker does for point guards all time. Why not say Ginobili and Duncan?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I mean. I mean, Ginobili was incredible. Okay, we can't. But. But that was great. No, that was great.

[Max Kellerman]

Duh. Sorry. Let's do this again. It's such an honest one.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no, no.

[Max Kellerman]

I got it. I'm gonna say it. I'm gonna say it. I'm gonna say it. Jordan Pippen, Shaq, Kobe, magic, Kareem, Bird McHale. KD and Steph. Done.

[Rich Paul]

I said. I actually.

[Max Kellerman]

KD and Steph. You said KD and Steph and I missed it?

[Rich Paul]

No, no, I asked. I was just naming a team for you so you could try to.

[Max Kellerman]

We didn't say warriors, though, did we?

[Rich Paul]

I said warriors.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, well, I'm an idiot then. Or I wasn't listening. KD and Steph. Done. Those are the five.

[Rich Paul]

That's your great.

[Max Kellerman]

What the hell took me so long? Thanks a lot. You didn't.

[Rich Paul]

I know it took you so long. I know it took you so long.

[Max Kellerman]

What's that?

[Rich Paul]

You don't really know basketball.

[Max Kellerman]

I was the one who came up with it, not you.

[Rich Paul]

No, I came up with and asked you the question.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but you could have helped me out at some point and said, why

[Rich Paul]

would I help you out? You pretend to know everything, and the

[Max Kellerman]

fact is, I do know everything. I just have to. At my age, I have to go through the files and.

[Rich Paul]

By the way.

[Max Kellerman]

And I'm doing, like, the micro film, not the. Not the Google search.

[Rich Paul]

Max. I just want you to know there's a video floating around out there.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Of you shooting these jump shots.

[Max Kellerman]

I wish I could. It's worse than you think. It's not.

[Rich Paul]

Nobody is going to take what you say in basketball, Rich.

[Max Kellerman]

It's much worse than you think. That's not a jump shot.

[Rich Paul]

What is it?

[Max Kellerman]

It's a free throw.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, God.

[Max Kellerman]

I'll tell that story one.

[Rich Paul]

But here's the thing. The good thing is.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Help is on the way because you just so happen to have a podcast.

[Max Kellerman]

Let's do it.

[Rich Paul]

Who's one of the best shooters ever?

[Guest/Caller]

Let's do it.

[Rich Paul]

So I can help you out. Bts.

[Max Kellerman]

So who's. I'm doing a pod. With who? Steph Clay. Who?

[Rich Paul]

No. What you mean we're doing it? Me?

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, you're one of the best shooters ever.

[Rich Paul]

You didn't know this? You know everything else.

[Max Kellerman]

I've heard you say it before.

[Rich Paul]

I seem to know everything else.

[Max Kellerman]

I've heard you say this before again.

[Guest/Caller]

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[Max Kellerman]

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[Rich Paul]

you know what? You need sleep. Because here's the thing.

[Max Kellerman]

I am a bit underslept. You're right about that.

[Rich Paul]

Why is it.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

That great sleep is so hard to get?

[Max Kellerman]

This get rich quick. Are we doing get rich quick right now?

[Rich Paul]

This is my get rich quick.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, let's hear it.

[Rich Paul]

I just, I mean, I don't know if it's a get rich quick. It's probably because I'm poor in the situation. Like, you want good sleep, not great sleep. I'm jealous of people that can go to sleep for 12 hours. How do you do that?

[Max Kellerman]

You can't at this age. You can't. Your kid can do it.

[Rich Paul]

No. I know people that go to sleep for 12 hours.

[Max Kellerman]

At our age, they go to sleep for 12 straight hours.

[Rich Paul]

8 hours, 9 hours, 10 hours, 12 hours, 12 times.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know if I can sleep

[Rich Paul]

12 hours if I get like a 45 minute nap. By the way, the other night I took a nap. Literally. I. I must have went to sleep for like an hour nap. I slept so good in that hour. I woke up and I thought it was the next day.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, that's.

[Rich Paul]

It was. I had to go to dinner at 8:30 and it was 7:25. I saw Dean. I'm like, I thought Dean was leaving out to go, come to set. And I said, dean, why'd you let me sleep all the way through the night? He's like, what are you talking about? He's like, man, we going to dinner at 8:30? I'm like, what you mean is 7:25 in the morning? He goes, no, it's 7:25 at night.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, that's the best.

[Rich Paul]

But I felt like I slept because

[Max Kellerman]

like, you caught the whole cycle of sleep and just woke up at the right spot.

[Rich Paul]

And you know, I was, I was moving for three days. I might have slept like, I don't know, 10 hours in those three days.

[Max Kellerman]

So I was supposed to be warm. Cool head, warm feet. Supposed to help you sleep. Keep your head cool in your feet. That's why you want the. The pillow cool. And sometimes I'll throw on socks if my feet. If I don't. If my feet are cold.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, cool head, warm feet. So I had to get like a cold towel.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know, like one of those pillows that, you know they have those pillows that keep it cool. Put your wave cap in a bridge.

[Rich Paul]

The wave cap in the fridge.

[Max Kellerman]

You should try that, see what happens.

[Rich Paul]

I am from Cleveland. Lake Erie's always frozen. Those waves are. Listen, I may try that. Yeah, no, just a light little. Not for too long. That is. That's actually cool head. Cold feet. I never heard that. But seriously, warm feet. Sleep is.

[Max Kellerman]

I'll tell you something else. You know what another good one is? What? Get a book, right? You start to read the book. If you hate the book because it's boring, it'll put you to sleep. If you really are into the book because it's good, your body will trick you. Like, it's that thing that's working. It's like, oh, I'm into this. I don't want to fall asleep. Then you wind up falling asleep. Either way. You read to put yourself to sleep, and it keeps you off the phone. And I started taking my own advice. Two nights ago, I stopped doom scrolling. I talked about this on the show. I started doom scrolling more and more at the end of the night and losing sleep because it's the dumbest thing ever. I didn't even like it. And so I started reading. Actually, whenever I haven't read a book in a little bit, I get back into reading books by reading sports books. Mike Vaccaro, the writer. The sports writer. New York Post has a book out called. What's it called? The Boss of Bosses. It's about the Steinbrenners and their ownership of the Yankees. So I, you know, read a couple chapters of that before I went to sleep last couple nights.

[Rich Paul]

Did you see. Speaking of college, did you. And I don't want to get on my man. Cause my man. But it was just a bad act. No, no books to college. Yeah, but. Because this came to my mind, the floor for the Big 12 tournament. Did you see this?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. It kept changing. And the players are complaining. Cause they're slipping or something or. No, it's giving them migraines, they say.

[Rich Paul]

But it was a. It was more like a TV screen. And I.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, like an LED TV screen.

[Rich Paul]

But it was so dangerous. Thank God they're changing it. They're changing it to the. To the. To the real wood. And I'm all for trying new things.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I like that that they tried it. Maybe you don't try it on that stage.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, there's something. Let's try to put like a 4k shot clock or something. Not. Don't mess with the floor.

[Max Kellerman]

I think the appeal is you can change it from a wood floor to different designs to this and that and.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

TV screen that they're playing on.

[Rich Paul]

Well, there's too many. I mean, that's how you get a soft tissue injury very fast.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, it's a good point. And there are too many of them already in the NBA.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

In basketball. Period. Okay. Luca dropped 51. Rich. I mean, they're playing. They're playing a bad team. In the bulls, Luca dropped 51. 10 and nine. It's almost a 50 point triple double.

[Rich Paul]

That's talent.

[Max Kellerman]

I got to take credit for this. I'm taking credit for it. It's me. Let's be honest. Let's be honest.

[Rich Paul]

How are you taking credit for somebody else's work?

[Max Kellerman]

It's thanks to me. I'll explain it. I opened the floodgates when I pointed out publicly I was very critical of my criticism. I was very public with my criticism of Luka Doncic play this year, especially defensively and especially complaining to the refs all the time. And I read some stat. I have no idea if this stat is true, but I hope it's true because it's incredible. He was complaining on over 90% of the possessions. 90%. So really, what that complaining is about, Rich, when you really look at it, it's an excuse not to run down the floor and play, to get back and play defense. If you're complaining to the ref, you can't. Right? No. So since I did that, it opened the floodgates. Everyone's been on Luka, and there was some blog. I forgot which one. I'm sorry. Because they pointed it out. I should remember which.

[Rich Paul]

What?

[Max Kellerman]

There was some blog that said. I think it was yesterday that wrote that since I criticized Luca, they showed all the games that.

[Rich Paul]

Is this what you texted me about? Was it yard something? Yard.

[Max Kellerman]

Was it yard Barker or something like that? May have been.

[Rich Paul]

Text me something.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, they said, yeah, it was yard

[Rich Paul]

Barker because they're just too outlandish.

[Max Kellerman]

Who wrote the article? Jacoby? Huh? Sean King? Keane. Shaun Keane. Sorry. Shaun Keene wrote this article where he said, since I criticized Luca, here are his games. And he's been going off. Let's face. Brought the criticism public. Everyone started criticizing him. It's the emperor has no clothes. Everyone's like, luka's incredible. Luka's incredible. And it takes one person to say, you know what? What about this? Not that other people weren't saying it, but the level of criticism was such that everyone started saying it, and that was the end of that. Now, you're welcome, Lakers fans. You're welcome.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I'll say this.

[Max Kellerman]

Are you giving me credit for this?

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm not giving you credit because I saw.

[Max Kellerman]

How many points of the 51 do I get?

[Rich Paul]

I saw your shot.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You're. What?

[Max Kellerman]

How tall are you nowadays? Five, ten and a half, maybe.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, five, ten, and a half.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm not giving up that half. I was like 5, 11, 20 years.

[Rich Paul]

So you try to take credit for a guy that's six, seven with a handle and a jump shot, top three pick, all NBA, all. All star in the MVP race, and you're taking credit for his production on a Thursday night.

[Max Kellerman]

Do you understand that? The great motivators, Rich, The Pat Rileys, the Phil Jacksons, the Max Kellermans, they know how to push buttons so you could put your.

[Rich Paul]

The Pat Riley, Phil Jackson and Max Kellerman motivators. So you put yourself in the community of some of the greatest coaches ever.

[Max Kellerman]

Who's there?

[Rich Paul]

Pat Riley, Phil Jackson, and who?

[Max Kellerman]

You're saying else is there not Max Kellerman? Oh, okay. I see.

[Guest/Caller]

Motivated.

[Max Kellerman]

I was hoping you were going to say Max Kellerman, then I'd say, clip that, and then we could send it out on social media. That's useful.

[Rich Paul]

But when I say I'm one of the best shooters in the world, you try to.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I said, okay, it's great that you are. And, you know.

[Rich Paul]

No, you didn't. You said, am I doing a podcast with Steph Ray?

[Max Kellerman]

Well, because if someone says the best shooter in the world, that's.

[Rich Paul]

Do you want me to call Steph and ask him, do you want who

[Max Kellerman]

the best shooter in the world is? Go ahead.

[Rich Paul]

No, do you want to call Steph and ask Steph, am I in the company of he and Clay? I keep telling you, it's Dame. Steph, Clay, Rich. Ray,

[Max Kellerman]

what's great about this show is when someone says something outrageous, you only have to wait about 30 seconds for the other guy to say something just as outrageous.

[Rich Paul]

No, that's not. That's not. And those are. Look, I didn't include Reggie. Reggie and I talked about this a lot.

[Max Kellerman]

You have to show me articles where blogs are giving you credit for the shot. Listen, they're giving me credit. All these blogs give me credit for all these. And see how I did that. There's two blogs, all these, but no other people have pointed it out.

[Rich Paul]

No, what they said was what they really said.

[Max Kellerman]

He could have most of the points, but I'm taking, like, 20 of the points. He could have 31 okay.

[Rich Paul]

But you know what the good thing about this is? This is great for our behind the scenes stuff.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh yeah, yeah. This is great. Absolutely.

[Rich Paul]

I'm going to show you how to shoot a free throw.

[Max Kellerman]

Great. So.

[Rich Paul]

So wait, are you picking. So who's the team you're picking to win it all first? Okay. Okay. So you.

[Max Kellerman]

They'll get out of the West. The only thing is, if the Knicks see him in the finals, that's going to be real. The Knicks seem. The Knicks have a way of playing that seems to bother them. Right. There's a certain slower pace that the Knicks play with, but they're able to hit shots late in the clock. They're able to slow the spurs down a bit.

[Rich Paul]

Do you think Kawhi should be in the MVP race right now?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

He is playing phenomenal basketball.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Do you think Tyloo should be in the coach of the year race?

[Max Kellerman]

Absolutely.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no.

[Max Kellerman]

Absolutely. The way they started compared to the way absolutely.

[Rich Paul]

Ty Lue should be, they started with 6 and 3.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, before we get there real quick, I think JJ Redick should be too. And what I'm curious to see is how JJ like all seriousness, like when, when Luka feels challenged or like people are questioning him, he seems to respond. Last night he was drawing with that what's his name on the Bulls and he obliterated him. Right. Lucas seems to respond to that kind of criticism. JJ Redick had the Lakers winning earlier this season with two of his best three players frequently out. He has them playing defense when you look at the roster, not a defensive team. He got in Lucas face at the right time, I felt. And it seemed to have an effect. And the question is, will he push his Lucas buttons in the playoffs? And my prediction is yes. I think both LA coaches are in the coach of the year conversation because the Clippers started with the worst record in basketball basically and they've been killing it since then.

[Rich Paul]

In order to win, you have to have that relationship with players and players have to have relationships like that with coaches. I don't know why that was made a big deal up at all.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Like I've never been a part of any sports success where players wasn't challenged.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

That just doesn't make sense. That's part of it.

[Max Kellerman]

You ready for five minute max?

[Rich Paul]

What? Another one?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You did like three five minute max.

[Max Kellerman]

Those are just points. This is a five minute max. Five minute max is a thought out take about a certain subject that has not been addressed.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, well, you know what you're Right. Because the other stuff you talked about was not thought out. So yes, I'm ready for the five minute max.

[Max Kellerman]

Just understand the way. The way you have. I have access to you at the gym. You're gonna like one of the great shooters in the world, apparently, right? Is I have access to that private shooting lesson. Right? That's amazing. Do you. You have access to my genius. This is a very privileged position on a daily basis.

[Rich Paul]

You get to hear, yeah, I'm I OG because over genius.

[Max Kellerman]

That's what it means. OG over genius.

[Rich Paul]

Between your text calls and having to do this show with you, I'm like, June Bug, I'm gonna get you sucked. It's a rat. It's too much.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, listen.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, it's too much.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, listen. So I'm thinking about the Adebayo thing and people's reactions to Adebayo. And I thought you were. You spoke eloquently about who Bam Adebayo is, why he deserves to be celebrated, and what people thinking when they're attacking him. Right? I thought that was good. And it occurred to me that like something. Something I remembered rich from that show you said about Wilt. Why isn't there any video you were kind of joking around about Wilt's Hundred Point Game talking about? And I noticed this pop up like a bunch of months ago. I started seeing on social media people with this conspiracy theory that Wilt's 100 point game never actually happened.

[Rich Paul]

It happened.

[Max Kellerman]

I didn't know what that was about because so many people nowadays are so. There's so much misinformation about so many things. People are getting their information from TikTok. Right? That I thought maybe that's just a sign of the times everyone's conspiracy. Did we really land on the moon? All this nonsense, right? And then it occurred to me after the Bam thing, what's actually going on. You know what that conspiracy stuff about Wilt really was? That's Kobe fans. Kobe Stans really thinking at the time whether it's conscious or unconscious. If we take 100 points away from Wilt, Kobe has the all time record. So now Bam has 83. That's what infuriated the Kobe fans so much. Not if they're like, oh, even if we take 100 away from Wilt, there's still someone with more than Kobe. And the reason for that is, I think, and I brought this up the other day, I want to get a little deeper into it. If the idols of your time are the greatest idols ever, are the, you know Then your time was the greatest time ever.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, it's your time.

[Max Kellerman]

It's your. And by extension, you. You and your time had meaning. You know, in this infinite universe or multiverse or whatever, 8 billion people on the planet Earth, it's easy to feel meaningless. But sports, in a way, becomes people's religion because. And the idol becomes. There's, like, sports God, because when you see the best player of a given era, LeBron, Kobe, whoever it is, when your eyes are on them, you know, there's no way that these other guys they're talking about could be better than this. Nothing could ever be better than this. Right. Right. So you start to kind of deny history. You start getting angry at the future as that unfolds, because it's no longer your time. You're not watching that in your formative years. And so you somehow feel diminished, which is. Look, when I was a kid, I used to argue with old timers, Sugar Ray Leonard was better than Sugar Ray Robinson. He wasn't, but I thought he was when I was a kid. And it was somehow important to me that he began, but he wasn't. I was wrong. The greatest baseball player ever played 100 years ago, Babe Ruth. You can make any argument you want because you want to make this point or that point, but actually, the most supported, objective argument is Babe Ruth. And if you. If all. If you think the greatest. By the way, the greatest football player ever played it for my hated enemy, the Patriots, the Boston team, Tom Brady, he just retired very recently. If you think all the greatest players are all from when you were experiencing your formative years, come on, man. What do you think the odds of that actually are? So for Kobe fans especially, they have a very strong need to believe. To make the argument that if. If he's not the greatest, at least he's the next thing to Jordan. Right? And that's what the Bam stuff is about. And that's what the. That's what the Wilt stuff was about. But Kobe was incredible. He was among the greatest ever. And I'm here to tell you, he doesn't need to be the greatest ever for you to love him, because he's the idol of your childhood or whatever it is for you to celebrate how great he was, because he really was that great. But it's okay. Wilt really scored 100 points. And you don't have to go with Bam scoring 83.

[Rich Paul]

He really scored 83.

[Max Kellerman]

He really scored 83 points.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, that's.

[Max Kellerman]

I was five minute max. How long? Three and a half minutes.

[Rich Paul]

No, that was like six minutes. But it don't matter.

[Max Kellerman]

It wasn't. It was actually four minutes, 30 seconds. Oh, four and a half minutes.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. Yeah, it was your 15, five minute max. But the thing about it is this. I was not. I can accept that from fans or stands or whatever you want to call it.

[Max Kellerman]

Great.

[Rich Paul]

They supposed to do that. What I was really taken back by were former players and then people in the media who are. Who are. Who was around our game all the time trying to discredit it, whether you were a fan of. Of Kobe or not. I just didn't understand that part because we know how hard it is to score eight points in a game, let alone 83 points in a game. And if you want to make the argument that the last four minutes or this or that. You know what? I'm not giving you that. And I loved what Spo said. That's what he was like. I can't say what he said, but basically you can read between the lines what he said. He wasn't caring about what nobody had to say or think. And I don't blame him. Like, enough of all of that. So Bam had 83. It was a great moment. And all the discrediting and what do you.

[Max Kellerman]

It goes on all the time.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but what are you mad about?

[Max Kellerman]

It goes on.

[Rich Paul]

Get a slice of pizza. Relax.

[Max Kellerman]

Arguments. I don't want to get into whole MJ thing who the record shows is the greatest, but.

[Rich Paul]

No, we know who's the greatest.

[Max Kellerman]

We do. Yeah, but. But LeBron people do this. Psychologically. It motivates.

[Rich Paul]

Well, they're not going to give him any credit.

[Max Kellerman]

Forget about it. Every era does this. I don't like when MJ fans do it because it's unnecessary. And MJ fans do it. They'll attack LeBron. Oh, he couldn't have played. And then. Are you insane? LeBron would have dominated any era he played in. Jordan's still Greater. You say LeBron's still greater. But the point is, you don't need to go to those things. Just, you know, you can, like, but it's hard for people to be emotional.

[Rich Paul]

I say, I'd rather go to dinner and have the conversation amongst the people that actually played the game at the level that we're talking about and hear them talk about it. And then I want to.

[Max Kellerman]

You just scored 51 points in an NBA game.

[Rich Paul]

Who did you.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Do you see what Luca did? I. It's because of my motivation.

[Rich Paul]

And then I want to be a part of the room or the conversation. Where they get access to all this deal flow and let me put my little, you know, coins in there. That's what I like.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich Paul. Speaking of, never had a thought that didn't involve somehow making a dollar.

[Rich Paul]

Speaking of Sugar Ray Robinson. Yeah, I like Sugar Ray Robinson, although I didn't see many of his fights. But the old stuff, I saw Sugar Ray Leonard and also Sugar Ray from Harlem Knights. He was a real, real guy.

[Max Kellerman]

Raised Boom Boom Room.

[Rich Paul]

That's a different movie, but no Sugar Ray. We got to watch Harlem. That's what we should do.

[Max Kellerman]

We should watch Nights was so good.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, it was incredible.

[Max Kellerman]

Harlem Nights was so good.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, because the fact, but the fact

[Max Kellerman]

that, the fact that Eddie Murphy put all those people together like he really.

[Rich Paul]

That was him paying homage, that was really hard.

[Max Kellerman]

He just wanted to do a movie with Richard Pryor. That was really what.

[Rich Paul]

He was also paying homage to all the other comedians.

[Max Kellerman]

No question that. By the way, the Della Reese Red

[Rich Paul]

Fox stuff was so good with the orange juice. Why would you.

[Max Kellerman]

If there's just a swallow. Let's watch you swallow it.

[Rich Paul]

But that would happen. But that would happen in real life.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right.

[Rich Paul]

The worst thing you can do is

[Max Kellerman]

that drink Harlem Nights. That was. That's the Arsenio scene where he just keeps popping off quick.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, but listen, have you ever been in a situation where. And I've been in this situation before, you go in like grandma's house. Was the house. Cause you know, at grandma's house you may have two uncles in the basement. You may have not one. Two uncles in the basement. They arguing about something that don't have nothing to do with nothing. But then somebody may come in and have just a faygo, a fruit punch faygo. This is my drink. Put it in the refrigerator. It's the worst thing you can do because the risk of that faygo, you're

[Max Kellerman]

never seeing that thing again.

[Rich Paul]

Come on, you want to see a. Listen, you want to see an all out war?

[Max Kellerman]

Of course.

[Rich Paul]

Drink somebody's faygo. Drink, drink. Okay. I'm telling you, you want to see a boxing match, Zufa, my ass. You want to see a heavyweight bout, Drink that fruit punch, faygo.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And it could be a. By the way, you could be getting ready to fight a seven year old kid about that faygo. Cause it wasn't yours. You had no business touching it. And they like, oh, I thought you had thought nothing.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. You knew exactly what you were doing.

[Rich Paul]

And you know what? Now think yourself down the street and get me another one. I don't have the money. Well you better find it. I mean this is a real thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Was that going on in Cleveland? Like sending kids to the store for quarter orders and stuff?

[Rich Paul]

Yes, yes. Yeah, all the time. But that was a real. That would start a fight.

[Max Kellerman]

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[Max Kellerman]

[e-mail] you ready to do emails?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

What we got Jim Chitty wanted to weigh in on the discussion about Bam's 83 point game and the idea that Kobe would have told him do it again. He said nothing but respect for Bam, yada yada. When Kobe scored 62 and three quarters against Dallas, he didn't stay in to chase records. Phil Jackson sat him for the fourth and after the game, Kobe said something to the effect of we'll do it when we need it. I don't think Kobe would have supported the idea of pushing for more points when your team is up by 20 plus. Here's the thing about Kobe though. Kobe was not going to score 100 points in a game. 100 points. I mean, like, look, MJ could have also scored a lot of great scores. If they're just trying to score a lot of points, can score a lot of points. 100 points was really out of reach. I think if Kobe would have had 62 through 3/4 and the record was 81, I think he'd have stayed in the game to get the record. Like because that's possible. He's been doing. He scored 20 plus points, 20 or more points basically on average per quarter to get to 62 after three quarters. So the record, the reason Bam chases the record at the end end is because it's within reach. Do people really want to see on a night that can be historic, you'll remember forever a guy be like, ah, we got this in hand. I'll sit down with 72. Stop everybody. If Kobe in the 62 point game, if the record was 81 points, he would have stayed in for the fourth quarter to break the record. Why? Why not?

[Rich Paul]

You know what I thought was, I thought was was hilarious. Them saying, people saying, oh, he should have subbed out at 80.

[Max Kellerman]

So. Because they were trying to protect Kobe.

[Rich Paul]

What are you talking about?

[Max Kellerman]

They're trying to protect Kobe. That was like, need your protection.

[Rich Paul]

I just thought it was.

[Max Kellerman]

Kobe's record speaks for itself.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I just thought it was hilarious. But did you see Bam's teammates, how they actually wanted him to get the record?

[Max Kellerman]

Of course.

[Rich Paul]

I thought that was pretty cool.

[Max Kellerman]

I agree. Marcelo or Marcello from Flushing, Queens. NBA has gone through dramatic changes throughout its history. Introduction to the three point line, point guards evolving into scoring threats, et cetera, et cetera. What do you think the next major evolution of the sport will be? You have any ideas, Rich?

[Rich Paul]

Well, I hope it's not something coming from you because if that's the case, then we're going to.

[Max Kellerman]

I have the best ideas. The best idea.

[Rich Paul]

What is it?

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, so you want to get rid of the three port or lessen the number of threes taken. How about this? People want to bring back the line. Why People start chucking up more and more. Right. I would say this. What if, like, what kind of play do you want to see? You want to see more driving? You want to see more midis? You want. You can assign.

[Rich Paul]

I'm actually fine. I don't want to see anything.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, then you can leave it alone. But for example, you can incentivize people to play the way you want them to play. If you want midis to mean more, make them worth more if you want. If certain shots are tougher that you would like to reward, incentivize the players to play in that style. That's why people shoot threes, because it's worth an extra point. That's why they do it.

[Rich Paul]

You know what you're doing? You're taking those beautiful pants you have and turning them into leggings. I don't want that. No, we're not doing that. None of that.

[Max Kellerman]

Because you feel like nothing has to change. I heard Daryl Morey say he agrees as to like he's the one. Hey, we need fewer threes in the game. Take away the corner threes.

[Rich Paul]

Well, taking away a corner three is not that drastic of a change. I think it started there, right?

[Max Kellerman]

What did.

[Rich Paul]

Was it always a corner three?

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know. Yeah, there was a three point line in my memory. Is a three point line if you shot from beyond the arc, that's three points.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, taking the. Taking away the corner three wouldn't be that big of a deal.

[Max Kellerman]

It would change offenses though.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but I'm saying it wouldn't be. Actually. No, I take that back. Don't take away the corner three. The corner three is one of those shots that number one has made guys a ton of money. So I always think of how it affects.

[Max Kellerman]

There'll be other ways to make money.

[Rich Paul]

No, but I always think of how it affects players. And it's bad enough we're in this system where it's like the half and half nots now there's really no middle class. I'm not changing anything.

[Max Kellerman]

You're saying that would lower class bring

[Rich Paul]

back the middle class.

[Max Kellerman]

But you're thinking about it from an agent's point of view.

[Rich Paul]

I'm always thinking about it from an

[Max Kellerman]

agent's point of view, but from other fans point of view. From a fan's point of view. Like, to me, look, it got to a place in the 90s where there was really too much rough defense and there it was not a flowing kind of game. And I get that people didn't like. I like because I grew up with. But I. Or, you know, formative years thing again. But that's. I get it. But this game is older years. Too many threes taken in too many games.

[Rich Paul]

But that's.

[Max Kellerman]

The outcomes vary wildly just on the variance of how many, you know, that night.

[Rich Paul]

Let's talk real basketball. Yeah, that's not the system's fault. That is. That is the league. When I say the league, not the NBA. It's a copycat league. So if you want to follow the trend of shooting threes, that's your prerogative as a team. No one's. No one's.

[Max Kellerman]

But they're following the incentives.

[Rich Paul]

No, but it's not. Yeah, but it's not mandatory. But it's not mandatory.

[Max Kellerman]

It's like. So in baseball, what they figured out over time is the thing that has the most value is forget about high on base percentages, or don't forget about them. But home runs and walks are super good. And for various reasons we don't have to get into. And other things that they valued. Let's say in the 80s, not as effective in terms of winning. So teams got. So players from youth up get away from the stuff that they used to do, because that's not the path to success. If you incentivize behavior, you can't then tell people, well, just use willpower not to follow your incentives. Why would they do that?

[Rich Paul]

Yes, but you know how many championships has been won without the three being featured? More than has been.

[Max Kellerman]

Not in recent years.

[Rich Paul]

No, but we're talking about overall.

[Max Kellerman]

But that's because things changed.

[Rich Paul]

You know, this is what I'm saying.

[Max Kellerman]

But once they change, they're not going back to the old stuff.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, but what I'm saying is if you have a roster that doesn't include great shooting and your system says shoot more threes, then that's bad on your part. That's not bad on the league's part. The league's not telling you to do that. They're not.

[Max Kellerman]

Everybody is a better shooter than they used to be. Because throughout every one I watch, Rich, it's like. I'll go back to the baseball analogy. The kind of guy, like the number of strikeouts that your average player has now and the number of home runs is so much higher than it was when I was a kid. Right. That even if you have players who you say they're not a great home run hitter or they don't strike out a lot, they still do both things much more than the average player. When I was a kid, you could say a team doesn't have shooting, but the average team that doesn't have shooting has much more shooting than they used to have.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, you're down one.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

It's ten seconds to go. Do you want your guy shooting a 18 footer or you want him shooting a 3?

[Max Kellerman]

Depends who has the open look.

[Rich Paul]

Your best shooter on your team.

[Max Kellerman]

I'd rather be a little closer to the basket.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, then, so what are we talking about? My thing is, it's up to you. You don't have to take all these threes.

[Max Kellerman]

You don't have to, but you will. Is the point. Like, do you want to. Do you want to stand on principle or do you want to actually get the product?

[Rich Paul]

I want to win the game. I want to win the game. What product? The product is w wins.

[Max Kellerman]

No, but the fan product. The point is the way you get wins.

[Rich Paul]

If you win, your fans will be there.

[Max Kellerman]

But the overall interest in the league, even if certain teams are winning, taking advantage of these incentives, they follow them. They have the right teams to win. The overall interest in the league will decrease. If you're not making consumers a product that they want to see.

[Rich Paul]

I don't believe that. That's not true. They want to see.

[Max Kellerman]

Hold on. You don't believe that if the product people want to see is lessened, that the interest will be lessened?

[Rich Paul]

Moving to goal post. What I'm saying is, if you put a great brand of basketball on the floor and I'm a fan of this team and this team is winning based upon the great brand of basketball that that's been implemented on the floor night in and night out, I'm not going to be upset about that.

[Max Kellerman]

No doubt, as a fan of my team wins as a fan of that team. But I'm making you commissioner of basketball. Okay? I'm making you king of basketball. Forget about commissioner. You do whatever you want right now. You and your. Your goal is to make basketball as popular as possible. Obviously, Rick, they don't call you poor. Paul, you want to expand the reach, right? And the market. If you give people a product that is too homogenized because everyone's playing the same way, it all looks the same. Points are diminished because everyone's hitting threes all the time. It's not as big a deal that's not as good as a tweaked product where that's not in the game.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is even if you tweak the product, right, it's still up to each team to determine how they want to strategize within that product availability. So what I would say if I was the king of basketball or the commissioner or whatever is I would encourage teams to develop character within your play that attracts fans consistently and builds the culture that they can follow throughout. Like if you, if you know, like people follow teams, players, etc. In soccer, they're die hard because they grow up. It's in the neighborhood, you can walk to the stadium. You're never changing. If you're a Chelsea fan or a Liverpool fan or Arsenal fan or Tottenham, whatever the case may be. Real Madrid in basketball you tend to follow players. If you like this guy and he goes to another team, you're not necessarily caring about the team, you care more about the players. You have those type of things that

[Max Kellerman]

going on for sure.

[Rich Paul]

But then you have just hardcore fans of teams that's been that way because my dad took me to my first game or my grandfather like this or my grandmother like that. So it's. It, it varies. All I'm saying is no matter what the system is holistically right, the product, four point play, take away the three point shot, corner threes, whatever you want to call it. But I, I don't think you should start getting more for a mid post or two or four points for a dunk.

[Max Kellerman]

Maybe not, but you have to figure out incentives. Like because that is to figure out incentives or rules that incent that everyone's always going to try and exploit the rules. Any game you play, the best players exploit the rules. The best. That's what makes them the best. That's what, you know, foul hunting. If you, if you give them the call, they're going to continue.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but we can't turn a diamond.

[Max Kellerman]

If you stop giving them a call, they won't fall because they're not getting rewarded for it.

[Rich Paul]

But we have a diamond, Max. We can't turn into a fugazi. Okay, I hear what you're saying. So you start to do that gimmicky stuff.

[Max Kellerman]

But the three point shot was gimmicky.

[Rich Paul]

Not really. The three point shot became an evolution of the game.

[Max Kellerman]

Wasn't gaming the three point shot. The advent of the three point shot you should be. There was resistance to it, but the ones who embraced it the most got ahead of the curve. Back from Rick Pitino with the bomb squad and the Knicks. D' Antoni with seven seconds or less and ultimately with Mark Jackson and then Steve Kerr and then Daryl Morey took it to the next level. There are always going to be people who take the rules and the way that shapes the game and they will exploit it to the fullest. Right? So why don't we make rules where at least try to. We won't know the unintended consequences of the rules. We'll see how people exploit it. But you try to make rules where the exploitation of those rules results in a product people want to see.

[Rich Paul]

But the most difficult thing to do is shoot the ball.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay?

[Rich Paul]

So if you're being rewarded for added distance within shooting the ball, I totally understand.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm not saying get rid of the three.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, you might get rid of the three. Now, would you want to make a four point play? Certain spots on the floor?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but, but maybe even like, I don't know how it would. I have to think about it more. But you know, if you want, if you want pick and roll to be rewarded more. If like, I'm not saying you do, but let's say you wanted a league with pick and roll. If someone completed a successful pick and roll a role instead of, instead of a pop, right, you would give them, you would give them some incentive.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not giving you anything. I'm giving you a film.

[Max Kellerman]

Right, but what I'm saying is if you wanted, hypothetically, if you wanted more rolling to the basket, you could reward that differently and then you would get more rolling to the basket.

[Rich Paul]

No, you get more rolling to the basket when that player recognizes that this actually works. If I set a screen, it actually

[Max Kellerman]

works when you get more points. No, if you didn't get an extra point, they wouldn't be shooting from three.

[Rich Paul]

No, but you shouldn't have to give an extra point for what we know works. If I set a screen in row and you don't throw that pocket pass because either you can't throw it or you just are too selfish to throw it, then I don't want you on

[Max Kellerman]

my want to die on. You want to stand on principle. Yeah, but, but when the incentives are a certain way, it doesn't matter. You talking people into doing the right thing is never going to work. You have to incentivize them with, with rewards for it and punishments for it.

[Rich Paul]

You want to, you want to live on.

[Max Kellerman]

Can we get to the next one Cartoon.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know what's going on in that brain of yours. Like you want to change the game.

[Max Kellerman]

Luckily you have access to it basically whenever you want. Lucky me. That's what the book should have actually been about. All right, do we have a copy of the book here? You should have A copy of this book? It was a.

[Rich Paul]

No, I had a copy of the book and some genius took it and

[Max Kellerman]

it was a seller list. I didn't take it. And every.

[Rich Paul]

Now you're not the only genius around here.

[Max Kellerman]

I refer to it all the time and we never show it. Okay, Lucky Me by Rich Paul. Check it out. Buy it.

[Guest/Caller]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

48 year old Boston fan here. Love the show. So glad you're doing it, Rich. Love the risk you're taking being this media Max. Love the you bringing your depth of experience to it. Please let me know how A Tribe Called Quest didn't make it into your discussion. Please tell me you're doing this off the cuff. Anyway, keep it rolling.

[Rich Paul]

Most of all time, we love Tribe Called Quests. They actually did make it in our discussion somewhat, but they just.

[Max Kellerman]

I was thinking more about. We were talking about top five groups of all time.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

You need a representation from the South. Outkast should be on it.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

So. So.

[Rich Paul]

Well, but.

[Max Kellerman]

But like I guess we both made for me.

[Rich Paul]

But they're from the South Port.

[Max Kellerman]

But the reason Trot Tribe had great albums. To me there's a difference here. I hate when people over intellectualize music because you're just supposed to enjoy it whatever you like, but.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, oh, oh.

[Max Kellerman]

We got. Lucky me. Dean. Bring it on, let's see it.

[Rich Paul]

That's not the book.

[Max Kellerman]

It doesn't matter. It's the COVID of the book, Rich. It's a giant book actually. So when you buy it, you got to put it on a big coffee table. Yeah, lucky me. Okay, so all right, we've seen it. Now we're gonna keep it up the whole time.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I don't know. You told me.

[Max Kellerman]

How did we just show it and then we take it off? I don't. I mean, come on.

[Rich Paul]

That'd be extra. I gotta charge extra for that.

[Max Kellerman]

So try. So this is what I would say. There are some albums. You put it on in the background. You have some people over, you know, back then. Because that was when I was a teenager. Guys, girls, whatever. That's a little. Little get together, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

That's for Tribe. You put that on in the background. You don't skip.

[Rich Paul]

Tribe is a vibe. Tribe is a vibe.

[Max Kellerman]

But that's more in the background. I never sat down. Now we're gonna listen to a Tribe album and that's the activity. So for me that there's a different. In terms of what I think is. Or at least my favorites are the ones where you put that record on or that you put Pop that tape in. You pop the CD in. And that's the activity. Now we're listening to this. Right, right, right. To me, that's the difference.

[Rich Paul]

So when we were talking about Prince and Michael, I asked you, who would you rather hang with? You dodged that question.

[Max Kellerman]

Prince, of course.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

I didn't dodge that.

[Rich Paul]

So Prince is the vibe.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, just Prince seems like a real cool dude, you know, like everything.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, definitely. Hanging with Prince.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, I'm also hanging with Michael.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't need to hang with Michael.

[Rich Paul]

I'm hanging with Michael.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

At. I'm hanging with Michael. When we're at the Grammy party, I'm kicking it. You know, we got all type of people hanging out, hanging with Michael. I'm hanging with Prince on a more personal level.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Where we, you know, dinner. He's setting the vibe, you know.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Who hit the highest heights? Michael. Michael.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I mean, yeah. Just totally.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't think they're comparable, but I don't know why. I mean, I know why people compare them, but they really are not. It's apples and oranges, really.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

We got some great news for next week.

[Max Kellerman]

Go ahead.

[Rich Paul]

I can't tell it.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, oh, oh. I know what this is. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But next Wednesday we're going to have our first guest.

[Max Kellerman]

That's right. Next guest. Got to be a special guest.

[Rich Paul]

This is a very special guest.

[Max Kellerman]

I agree.

[Rich Paul]

It's a very special guest.

[Max Kellerman]

You did bring sports knowledge to the very special guest. Yes. Is not primarily known for sports knowledge, but brings it to the table.

[Rich Paul]

Just the coolest person. I don't know if there's a cooler person on the planet than this guest.

[Max Kellerman]

I agree. It's easy to be a star. Or easy. Most. When you see a star, it's like big personality, you know, that's the kind. The laid back charisma, like the cool charisma. Harder to pull off. Harder to pull.

[Rich Paul]

It's also harder to be at that level and just treat everybody.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Can get along with anybody.

[Rich Paul]

Can get along with anybody. Don't even have to know you. And you like, damn.

[Max Kellerman]

Wherever he goes, all around the world, he knows he's gonna see. They're gonna love him.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But I don't want to give it up.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

I wanna.

[Max Kellerman]

Actually, we've said enough now. I bet you a lot of people could guess.

[Rich Paul]

No, they won't.

[Max Kellerman]

Just that description. I would. The person, the guest is someone who, if I heard that description, he'd be on a short list already. Five, six people. He'd be one of the names.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, well, let's. We'll see.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, listen. Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.

[Rich Paul]

Game [e-mail]. it's Oscar weekend, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

It is. If I still went to the movies, I'd be able to talk about it. But I like going to the movies. No one. I can't find people who want to go to the movies. Let's go, Dean. We'll catch some flicks.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah. I go to the movies.

[Max Kellerman]

I like.

[Rich Paul]

I told you I don't mind going to movies. I like going to the movies.

[Max Kellerman]

Me, too. Shot clocks, Big shots, upsets, aces. TGL Playoffs are here. First Atlanta Drive starts their repeat run against Los Angeles Golf Club. Then Rory's Boston Common golf and Tigers Jupiter Lynx face off in their playoff debuts. Who will Advance? Keep up. It's playoffs. Tune in Tuesday, March 17th at 6:30pm and 9:00pm only on ESPN and the ESPN app. Toogood and Co. Coffee creamers are made with farm fresh cream, real milk and contain 3 grams of sugar per serving. That's 40% less than the 5 grams per serving in leading traditional coffee creamers for a rich, delicious experience. Whether you enjoy your coffee hot, cold, bold or frothy, two good coffee creamers make every sip a good one. Two good coffee creamers, real goodness in every sip. Find them at your local Kroger in the creamer aisle.