Difference in NFL Quarterbacks, and Point Guards in the Modern NBA

Summary

Podcast Summary: Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

Episode: Difference in NFL Quarterbacks, and Point Guards in the Modern NBA

Date: January 19, 2026
Host: The Ringer

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Overview

In this spirited episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul take a deep dive into the evolving definitions of greatness in the NFL’s quarterbacks, the distinction between “goodest” and “greatest,” how the NBA’s point guard role has transformed, and how the mental and physical demands of high-level sports require adaptation and perspective. They contextualize their insights with recent playoff games, personal anecdotes, and historical references, all while keeping their signature banter and humor front and center.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. MLK Day Reflections & Opening Banter (00:05–03:31)

• Acknowledging MLK Day:
  Rich Paul shares two favorite Martin Luther King Jr. quotes and both hosts reflect on the power of leading with integrity, especially under adversity.

  • “The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of convenience and comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.” — Rich Paul quoting MLK (02:07)
  • “Let no man pull you so low as to hate him.” — MLK, shared by Rich Paul (03:10)

• Lighthearted exchange about fashion and nostalgia for school teachers sets a relaxed, friendly tone.

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2. The Goodest vs. Greatest Debate – NFL Quarterbacks (04:33–15:45)

• Defining "Goodest" vs. "Greatest":
  Max introduces a new framework:

  • “Goodest” = the player with the highest excellence day-to-day, best skill, execution, and consistency.
  • “Greatest” = the one who delivers in the moments of truth, especially when the stakes are highest.

• Ali Example:
  Max uses Muhammad Ali as an example. As a young boxer, Ali was so good it was hard to gauge greatness. His true greatness was revealed when he battled adversity later in his career.

  • “When [Ali] got older and worse...is when you realize how great he was, because he had to prove his heart, his chin, his will to win.” — Max Kellerman (07:06)

• NFL Playoff Analysis:

  • Josh Allen: Dubbed the “goodest” quarterback, Max observes that Allen’s extraordinary skills don't always translate to ‘greatness’ in crunch time.
  • Matthew Stafford: Praised as “greater”—less spectacular day-to-day than Allen, but delivers game-deciding performances under intense pressure, e.g., comeback wins against Tom Brady and now Caleb Williams.
    • “Stafford has done the hardest thing in sports multiple times: win when the other team is destined to win, but you win instead.” — Max (15:19)
  • Caleb Williams: Despite a loss, demonstrated ‘greatness’ by making an all-time throw under snow and pressure.
    • (On Williams’s escape and throw:) “I haven’t seen every NFL pass, but that has to be one of the greatest NFL passes ever thrown…” — Rich Paul (13:02)

• C.J. Stroud and The Texans:

  • Max questions Stroud’s ability to seize the moment, arguing that wasting a generational defense is a rare mistake.
    • “You don’t have time to mess around with a quarterback who can’t get it done.” — Max (19:00)
  • Rich pushes back, preaching patience: “Sometimes I feel like people want these guys to win tomorrow.” (18:37)

• Team Building and Championship Windows:

  • Agreement that championship windows are much shorter—“one to three years”—than most fans or execs believe.
  • Example: The Texans are “already there,” so urgency for a top-tier QB is real.

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3. NFL Coaching Carousel and Team Dynamics (15:45–22:24)

• Sean McDermott’s Future:
  • Discussion about the natural cycle of coaches in relation to team performance ceilings.
  • Rich hopes McDermott lands with the Browns, lamenting “Why can’t we, my Browns, be on the other end of a mistake for once?”

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4. NBA: Back-to-Back Games & Variability (25:02–36:23)

• Lakers, Knicks & Back-to-Back Performances:

  • Both teams, despite age/injuries, win second games in back-to-backs after looking poor. Max and Rich credit both home-court advantage and renewed focus after a loss.
  • Rich emphasizes how the influx of young, athletic talent and defensive switching makes it hard for older teams.

• Travel and Energy Factor:

  • Rich details how brutal NBA travel is, disputes common narratives about “fun cities” leading to poor performance, and describes how “trap games” are identified and can define a team’s character.

• Injuries, Team Chemistry, and the “Glue Guy”:

  • Loss of players like Josh Hart or Brunson for the Knicks—a “glue guy”—can disproportionately impact a team’s edge.

• Impact of Pace and Defensive Schemes:

  • Mike Brown and others adapt coaching around increased pace and switching, with legacy references to the historical east/west style split.

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5. Evolution (and Survival) of the NBA Point Guard (39:01–49:07)

• Are True Point Guards Disappearing?

  • Max wonders if the “point guard” role is fading as teams go “positionless.”
  • Rich says the role persists but has grown larger in average physical size, and the classic leadership, floor-managing point guard (e.g., Chris Paul) is less valued or rare.
    • “I don’t think the point guard position is dead. I think the point guard position is no longer appreciated the way it once was.” — Rich (43:34)

• Role Changes & Talent Dynamics:

  • Modern primary ball-handlers (Doncic, Harden, LeBron) often aren’t “pure” point guards.
  • Discussion of “point forwards” (Penny, Grant Hill, LeBron) and the modern scoring point guard.

• Importance in the Playoffs:

  • Great, high-IQ point guards (Jrue Holiday, Chauncey Billups) are still crucial in championship contexts.
  • “Because what happens is, when you get into the playoffs... that’s where I think the point guard really matters.” — Rich (46:45)

• Skill Development & IQ:

  • Rich laments the decline in old-school fundamentals, like setting perfect screens or reading switches (“There is a true art to screen setting…” — Rich, 49:07).

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6. Food Talk Interlude: Chinese Food & Pizza Metaphors (51:42–55:13)

• Chinese Food Rituals:
  • Rich shares his Sunday ritual of eating beef & broccoli, sesame chicken at local spots—comparing good hole-in-the-wall food to the importance of authenticity.
  • Max, being a native New Yorker, draws parallels to the “classic slice” of pizza (Joe’s Pizza on Carmine St.).

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7. College Football Final & Eligibility Rules (55:20–62:33)

• Predictions and Team Strengths:

  • Max predicts Indiana to win the national championship, citing age and maturity.
  • Rich prefers a scenario where if his alma mater loses, it's to the eventual champ.

• NCAA Rule Critique:

  • Rich critiques age- and eligibility-based draft rules, arguing that exceptional young players should have committee opportunities to go pro.
    • “If you are good enough as a freshman, maybe we have a committee… based upon the evaluation, you can then go.” — Rich (57:57)
  • Brings up Maurice Clarett, the running back whose pro prospects were hampered by eligibility restrictions.

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8. NBA Rules & The "Gather Step" Rant (62:36–66:31)

• Max’s Pet Peeve:
  • The gather step’s expansion in NBA rules frustrates Max, who claims it’s made traveling rampant and artificially exaggerated scoring.
    • “It used to be…as a little kid…how many steps you can take. Right now…they figured out you can take at least three steps.” — Max (63:00)
  • Debate if the NBA should revisit or revert rule changes, with a humorous detour about line dances and basketball’s stylistic evolution.

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9. Final Thoughts & Memorable Moments (66:44–end)

• On the State of Sports:

  • Both agree that, overall, the NFL and football (including college) are in great places; sports culture is thriving.

• On Parental Support:

  • Heartwarming story about Mark Fletcher’s mother driving 18,000 miles to see his games, emphasizing family dedication in sports development.
    • “Motherly love is a strong thing. That is insane.” — Rich (67:23)

• Guest Tease:

  • The hosts contemplate potential guests for future episodes and encourage audience suggestions.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On MLK’s Significance:
  "I’d say he’s the greatest public orator I’ve ever seen or heard... what he did, to make people feel like they wanted to be the best versions of themselves, to uplift in that way and feel, you know. I don’t think anyone’s done it as well as him...” — Max Kellerman (01:24)

• Defining Greatness in Sports:
  “No matter how good you are, can you be great? Can you summon that when it matters most?” — Max (15:06)

• On NBA Point Guards:
  “I think the point guard position is no longer appreciated the way it once was... these guys come in so talented, a lot of us aren’t focusing on the details.” — Rich Paul (43:34)

• On Rule Changes:
  “It used to be... how many steps you can take. Right now... they figured out you can take at least three steps. And now guys are jumping back... It’s like they’re taking three, four steps.” — Max (63:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• MLK Discussion & Leadership Quotes: 00:07–03:31
• Goodest vs. Greatest in Sports: 04:33–15:45
• NFL’s Playoff QB Performances: 07:03–15:06
• NFL Coaching Carousel: 15:45–22:24
• NBA Back-to-Back, Team Chemistry: 25:02–36:23
• Modern NBA Point Guard Debate: 39:01–49:07
• Screen Setting & Basketball IQ: 49:07–51:16
• Food Interlude (Chinese & Pizza): 51:42–55:13
• College Football Eligibility Rules: 55:20–62:33
• NBA “Gather Step” Rule Critique: 62:36–66:31
• Parental Dedication: 67:03–67:40
• Future Guests Tease & Sign-off: 68:02–End

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Memorable & Light Moments

• Rich uses “goodest” (a made-up word) as a playful, trademarkable idea, prompting laughter about their own “companies.”
• Max and Rich’s extended riff on pizza and Chinese food, drawing an analogy to classic, authentic sports experiences.
• Heartfelt appreciation of Mark Fletcher’s mother’s cross-country devotion.

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Conclusion

This episode showcases Max and Rich’s ability to weave sports commentary with cultural insight, personal stories, and playful banter. Listeners walk away with a deeper understanding of the evolving demands on quarterbacks and point guards, the fleeting nature of championship windows, and the staying power of both tradition and family in sports culture.

Transcript

[A]

Max.

[B]

Yes, sir.

[A]

How was your weekend?

[B]

Great. Full house did have a four year look.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

NFL is on fire.

[B]

On fire.

[A]

I mean, listen, Bears fans, I just want you to know the future is bright. The future is very bright.

[B]

Is this in honor of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King?

[A]

No, it's not.

[B]

Three piece corduroy.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's Monday. It's stand on business Mondays.

[B]

Oh, that's true. Yeah.

[A]

Did you forget?

[B]

Yeah, I did. I'm not standing on business.

[A]

Well, it looked like you're standing on, you know, physics. You like my physics teacher, Mr. Kellerman? Mr. Paul, did you do your homework?

[B]

You like a physics teacher? To you with the throwback Reeboks.

[A]

Those are nasty.

[B]

Yeah, that's not physics.

[A]

It is because Mr. Kellerman was cool.

[B]

My physics teacher was cool. That's Dr. Kellerman, by the way, if I'm a physics teacher. Okay, fair.

[A]

But I'm saying. Well, you see, you know, my physics teacher was cool, so you look like a cool physics teacher. That's double rl, though. I know it when I see it. It is. You can't get. I want you to know something.

[B]

Yeah. I can't slip one by you.

[A]

Never get anything ralph past me. It won't happen.

[B]

It won't happen.

[A]

But since we're speaking of Dr. King, we have to honor Dr. King. Obviously. He was profound. One of the most profound. And you said he was. What word did you use?

[B]

I'd say that he's the greatest public orator I've ever seen or heard. Because unlike the kind of people who rile crowds up, not appealing to your better angels, but appealing to kind of like your more base kind of impulses. Right? That is easy. But to do what Martin Luther King did to make people feel like they wanted to be the best voice versions of themselves, to uplift in that way and feel, you know, he was. I don't think anyone's done it as well as him that I've ever heard.

[A]

So with that said, I had this quote and I wanted to get a couple quotes just because it's MLK day, so we can't do the show without honoring Martin Luther King.

[B]

You want to do a Martin Luther King quote?

[A]

Yes, the Martin Luther King quote. And my font is much smaller than yours, just to be clear. But he had these two quotes stand out. And I used to have this as my. As my Twitter handle before I might switch it back. But the ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of convenience and comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

[B]

I love that because he uses the exact right word there to me, which is convenience. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It is easy to live your values as opposed to. To just espouse them is easy when there's no or low cost. But when it costs you something. Right. When it's inconvenient, will you still uphold those values? And that's largely the measure of a person?

[A]

No. You can tie that back to your goodest and greatest.

[B]

Yeah, well, I'm about to do that.

[A]

Oh, sorry. Second one is. This is much shorter. Let no man pull you so low as to hate them.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Or the actual. It says, let no man pull you so low as to hate him. That's the quote.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, those are. That's kind of the best Christian traditions of turning the other cheek and loving thy neighbor. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I think that needs to be practiced more. The world will be a better place. Right?

[B]

I'm with it. I agree.

[A]

You ready to start the show?

[B]

All day.

[A]

I know you're excited, but guess what? Here we go. Brownies. Here we go.

[B]

You think about the. Oh, I know.

[A]

Sean McDermott.

[B]

All right, let's do this.

[A]

We're going to get him. Let's do it.

[B]

Game over is presented by fanduel. Fanduel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits. Plus, don't miss out on the NFL playoffs all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com gameover to get started. 21 and over and present in select states or 18 and over in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-78-9, 7-777 or visit ccpg.org ChatInContinectic. Rich There is a difference between goodest and greatest. There's a difference.

[A]

Is good as a word.

[B]

Good. It is. Now goodest is a word. It is a word, yeah.

[A]

Good.

[B]

It hasn't been until this moment, but now it is goodest and greatest.

[A]

I don't know of goodest.

[B]

You don't like it?

[A]

Well, I'm gonna tell you. Yeah. I had an English teacher, Mr. Francioli.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he was a stickler for things like that. So when I hear a certain word. That's why sometimes you see me trying to correct myself on the show.

[B]

Did Mr. Francioli talk about poetic license? No, I'm using poetic license.

[A]

But Mr. Francioli gonna revoke my license? He might revoke your license, but he also was the guy. He would. I went to school in Cleveland, so. On a cold winter day when you thought she was going to sleep in his class.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you come into class, all the windows are open. Oh, so it's not. It won't be. No sleeping.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's what I'm just trying to tell you. So when you said the word hot ass classroom.

[B]

Everyone's passing out. Yeah.

[A]

I got, like, PTSD from that because, you know, Mr.

[B]

But goodest. No, Goodest. There's a difference between goodest and greatest.

[A]

Okay, but wait.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can we trademark Goodest, please?

[B]

That's a good idea, because I actually. That's the goodest idea you've had today.

[A]

This is what I say about your brain, the way it works.

[B]

Something's off.

[A]

It's so off that it's actually on.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It comes full circle.

[A]

Yeah. It, like, comes back around.

[B]

Horseshoe theory of my brain.

[A]

It comes back around to on. Okay, so.

[B]

Okay, so, goodest and greatest. So who's the goodest quarterback in football?

[A]

I'm going to be confused, okay. Because goodest and greatest. But is goodest better than greatest or is great?

[B]

Okay, I'll explain it like this. When Muhammad Ali was young, he was so good, you did not know if he was great. In other words, he was so much better than everybody else. At his best, no one could test him. When he got older and slowed down, you knew, like, when he was young, that's the goodest heavyweight of all time. When he got older, you found out he's also the greatest heavyweight of all time. But doesn't happen like that always. Sometimes someone's really, really good and you find out in the moment of truth they're better than everyone else. Until it matters most, they're not greater than everyone else.

[A]

But didn't he. Just to be clear.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was not around when Muhammad Ali was young.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Neither was I. Oh, you watched it on tape?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I didn't know. I thought maybe you was.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Not that old.

[A]

I was gonna say, Matt, you're lying about your age in this case. So you're saying as he got older and worse and a worse fighter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is when you realize how great he.

[B]

Was because he had to prove his heart, his chin, his will to win. He overcame Frazier form and all this stuff. When he was young, no one could lay him down.

[A]

Do we have any other examples of that right now?

[B]

Of course. Well, this is what I'm Saying in the NFL, it is very. This weekend just showed what this is about, because it's all about the quarterbacks. In the moment of truth this weekend, Josh Allen is the goodest player in football. He's the goodest quarterback maybe we've ever seen. He is way like his excellence. Good is on an excellence scale. His excellence cannot be denied. And a lot of times people within an industry, like the athletes, the trainers, the coaches, they bristle when guys like me question greatness in the moment of truth because they know what goes into goodness. They the repetition, everything that's unglamorous, the consistency, the practice, the stuff behind the scenes no one sees. And then the moment of truth may not come as much for one guy as it does for another. Maybe he got a little unlucky, etc. So guys look at people like me saying, aha, he failed in the moment of truth. He failed the greatness test, and go, come on, that's not fair. And maybe it's not entirely fair, but it's just the reality. Josh Allen did not play well enough when they needed him most last night. As a result, the bills are out. McDermott is out of a job, right? And he's now 30 years old. Now, to his credit, Rich, he owned it. But let's look at the flip side of the goodest versus the greatest. Matthew Stafford. Matthew Stafford, who is not as good. He's not as. As Josh Allen is greater. Matthew Stafford, who, when he was in Detroit, never got in these big moments because it was Detroit. Well, we know he's talented, but can he come? Can he actually win? They package all these draft picks to get Jared Goff, the Rams do back then, and it works. They get to the super bowl, but he doesn't win. They then package all these draft picks with Jared Goff to get Matthew Stafford and bring him into a team that's ready to win the Super Bowl. Think of that pressure. And he's playing the Bucks in the playoffs. And the Bucks are the defending champs, and they have Tom Brady as their quarterback. And late in the game, Brady leads the Bucs down the field and scores. And now the Bucks are about to win the game. Of course, that's a wrap.

[A]

That's how it happens.

[B]

Stafford goes right back down the field, scores, beats the Bucs, goes on to win the Super Bowl. Rich, he did it again last night, except instead of against an old legend, against a budding legend in Caleb Williams. Caleb Williams was unbelievable last even though his team didn't win. That is greatness that you saw In Caleb Williams, when it mattered most, in the moment of truth, he went off. And in those kind of games, that team is now destined to win. The hardest thing to do is to come back and actually beat that team of destiny. And Stafford, who had done it against Tom Brady and the Bucks, did it again against the Bears.

[A]

He did. Once. It went into overtime. I thought, damn, the Bears. The Bears might.

[B]

They're gonna win.

[A]

Because that you're not. First of all, I just want to say. Max.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You are cooking. Oh, you're cooking.

[B]

Thank you, sir.

[A]

That's why you see me. I cross my legs. I'm just chilling.

[B]

Do you like the goodest, greatest thing? Do you know what I mean?

[A]

I like the goodest, greatest. But you were really cooking. You came in. You were really fired up.

[B]

Came in hot.

[A]

See, I know. On a Sunday. I figured it out. You much more of a football fan than you are boxing.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yes, you are.

[B]

Than boxing.

[A]

Unless you act like it.

[B]

No, I just. Listen, you have to admit we've been talking about this. The NFL is.

[A]

No. The NFL. Listen, whatever Roger Goodell has, I don't know what he's. I don't know if he's eating Lucky Charms in the morning.

[B]

Sold his soul.

[A]

He didn't. I don't know. No, listen.

[B]

Look at this. It's gotta be some kind of deal with the devil. All these games.

[A]

Why does it have to be a devil? It could be the Angels.

[B]

I don't know, man.

[A]

When it's like this, it could be. No, it's not what you mean. That's some. That's some. The black cat is a bad luck cat in the dictionary. Bs. Well, you know, whatever. That's bs. What I'm saying is Roger Goodell is also cooking. He is cooking right now.

[B]

He is cooking because. Oh, my God.

[A]

From the schedule to the. Now, some of it is some luck because what you're not talking about is that throw that Caleb Williams made.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

First of all, let me just tell you. I'm watching the game at home, and it's an early game, so I have to get downtown. And I'm hungry. And on Sundays, I eat Chinese food. Every Sunday? Yeah.

[B]

What is that about?

[A]

I just. That's just a thing I do.

[B]

Good. I do that on Christmas. A Jew on Christmas has Chinese food.

[A]

I eat Chinese food every Sunday. Every single idea. So I'm watching the game on my tv, then I'm watching the game on my phone while I eat, and I'm like, you know what? I want to get downtown But I really didn't think about. Traffic wasn't as bad as it normally would be because it was a Sunday.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So when I get there, I'm still watching the game on my phone, but the parking attendants. I'm sorry. Are also watching the game.

[B]

Mr. Franciola there. What's his name?

[A]

Mr. Franciola. I told you. They're also watching the game and the Bears are on the. Like, I think they might have had a penalty, but they're in the red zone. And then they had pushed back a little bit. But anyway, it's 4th and 4 and I'm like. I'm thinking Caleb's gonna run it, you know, maybe throw a screen, whatever the case may be. This guy runs 25 yards the other way, this dude. And I'm like, oh, no, he's going. And he turns around, off his back foot and throws in the snow. By the way, I haven't seen every NFL pass, but that has to be one of the greatest NFL passes ever thrown. In terms of the difficulty, the point in the game, the weather.

[B]

I mean, what's on the line.

[A]

He looked like. You know how a little kid be getting chased by all the bigger kids? And he's running away from the line and he's going. And he's like, no, you're going the wrong way. It's like. And then he turns around and throws his pass. And the defense was in shock because I'm thinking it. They had to be thinking it like, who's back there? There's no way he's going to make this pass.

[B]

Stay right there. Stay right there. You know who's capable of making that.

[A]

Pass Also Josh Allen.

[B]

Because Josh Allen is like Caleb Williams. He has all the excellence. Josh Allen is the goodest. But you know who makes that play in that spot? Caleb Williams. Because he's showing greatness. Josh Allen needs to do that with the chips on the line. He didn't do it with the chips on the line. Caleb Williams did. I have nothing bad to say about Caleb Williams. Matt Stafford came back after that.

[A]

I know you haven't.

[B]

And one, it's so. So why do I bring all that up? We're going to get back to McDermott. Let's get come back to McDermott.

[A]

And McDermott is going to be the Browns head coach.

[B]

You happy about that? You could do a lot worse than McDermott.

[A]

Listen, McDermott should be the Browns head coach. I'm rooting for the Browns to go.

[B]

And get McDermott, and I understand why the Bills get rid of him. Because if you hit a wall, it's the gm, the coach or the quarterback. GM doesn't fire himself. You ain't getting rid of Josh Allen. McDermott's the guy.

[A]

All I'm saying is, why can't we, my Browns, be on the other end of somebody making them? I don't know if it's a mistake, but somebody else losing the guy. And we gain him because it happens to us. Yeah. We let go of Bill Belichick. He went on to be arguably the greatest coach ever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why can't we be on the.

[B]

I think you have a.

[A]

Sometimes at least one time, you know.

[B]

Someone'S going to take that job. Someone?

[A]

No, no, no. Not someone. No.

[B]

McDermott. Go ahead. Go after McDermott.

[A]

Yeah, at least one time.

[B]

And by the way, his record is excellent. Every year he just hits a wall in the playoffs. And that's really maybe the GM's fault because Josh Allen doesn't have enough weapons. I get it, but it's not enough. The reason I bring all this up is in the moment of truth. No matter how good you are, can you be great? Can you summon that when it matters most? Stafford has done it. Stafford has done the hardest thing in sports multiple times. Win when you are. When the other team is destined to win, but you win instead. Unbelievable. Against the old guy, Tom Brady. Against the young guy, Caleb Williams. Unbelievable. Caleb Williams shows greatness. He can summon. That play that you just went through, by the way, that was good. You painted a picture in my mind.

[A]

I was watching.

[B]

It was unbelievable.

[A]

It was unbelievable.

[B]

And he did it when it mattered most. Josh Allen failed to do it. But these guys write their own scripts. It's not like I'm out here and it's like I've made up my mind about Josh Allen. The die is cast, and the fact that he owned it after the game bodes well for the future. He was accountable, but he didn't get it done. CJ Stroud is a guy rich who, his whole career, since college, I felt good about. In the moment of truth, I just. He gave me a feeling.

[A]

I still feel good about him.

[B]

Dude, this guy, he's a young guy. I get it. He has a long road ahead of him. But they beat the Steelers in spite of his play. And then he threw four interceptions against it with a defense that's one of the best I've ever seen. It's a championship defense. Texans could have won the super bowl this year if they just got complimentary play from their quarterback. You have that kind of defense, your Offense, just complimentary football, it's not that hard. One of the picks he threw was actually a completed pass that was bounced out of the receiver's hand. I don't hold that against him. But three legitimate interceptions, wasting one of the best defenses I've ever seen. And now the jury is out on C.J. stroud, because he's talented, but he ain't Caleb Williams, Josh Allen, talented. So if you're not that, and you waste a defense like the Texans defense you think he has. I don't know. If I'm the Texans, I bring him back. I hate. I root for Stroud, but I gotta be honest.

[A]

But let me. So here's the thing. I'll say this. Cause you keep going back to this idea that people don't have enough weapons, right? I think football's a different sport. And there's seven rounds. And I think that in the draft. You're saying in the draft.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And in football, you find diamonds in the rough. And I don't think you necessarily have to have big names all throughout to win all the time. Brock Purdy, Mr. Irrelevant in no sport. Right. But with that being said, sometimes I don't think people understand how hard it is from a front office perspective to a coach perspective, and then from a player perspective to accumulate as a core group, championships. Right? So now you get on from a Buffalo perspective down to a Houston perspective when you talk about the game and C.J. in that case, what's wrong with not getting things so fast?

[B]

Well, I'll tell you what.

[A]

It took some of the greatest. Here's what I'm saying. It took some of the greatest players that we ever seen play a sport, seven years to win a championship. But sometimes I feel like people want these guys to win tomorrow.

[B]

I'm not. Okay. That's a legitimate point.

[A]

Everybody went through their journey. Everybody.

[B]

Rich. It's a legitimate point. In this case, with C.J. stroud, there's an urgency, which is when you get a defense this good, people like to pretend that, like a defensive generation is three to five years, Right? It's not. It's one to three years. Really? Like, this defense may never be this good again.

[A]

Yeah, but Max.

[B]

So, like, if you have that defense that comes around once in every 10 years in football, you don't have time to mess around with a quarterback who can't get it done.

[A]

Okay, but hear me out. When you say one to three years, what's determining that one to three years? Is it age? Yeah, but.

[B]

Okay, so on a defense. Cause you have to have all those guys, it's a brutal assault.

[A]

A lot of their guys, a lot of their guys are still young, though.

[B]

They get old faster than people realize. Like, think of great defenses, how many.

[A]

Some of them are still in their rookie contracts.

[B]

You're right.

[A]

Playing that well.

[B]

You're right.

[A]

So I'm saying.

[B]

And they got a coach who's going to coach it up.

[A]

But what I'm saying is, in a normal case, you are right. There's one to three in any sport. By the way, people think, oh, we got this championship window. Your championship window isn't five years, right? It's one to three years. And by the way, that's if it's one to three years. If you have the roster that can actually get there, if you don't have the roster that can actually get there, then it's one to three years to put yourself in position to then now have somewhat of direction on that roster to possibly get there. And still.

[B]

Yeah, but the Texans are there already.

[A]

Yeah, they happen to be there already.

[B]

So this is what I'm saying. The Rams did better than the Texans when they went all in for Goff. They got to a Super bowl, but they made the decision at some point. It's a risky decision. We have a good quarterback. We need a great one to win the super bowl, we need a great one. Let's see if we believe Stafford can be great. And they guessed right. You know, they did their homework and Stafford had it in them. The Texans now, as young as they are at certain positions, as young as Stroud is, as, as, as new as their head coach is. Right. And as long a path as he has in front of him, it seems as a great coach, I think he's a great coach. I think Ryan's is a great coach. You gotta look around to see if there's, even if there's not a Stafford available. Is there something available better than CJ Stroud? Cause you can. Rich. All it would take is a quarterback playing competent football. I'm telling you right now, I think the Texans run the table with that.

[A]

So you're saying it's if you took, hypothetically, if you took Lamar and put him in Houston.

[B]

Now Lamar has to answer those greatness questions too. But he was great when he needed to be this year and he was great when he needed to be this year.

[A]

You said a player like him, yes, you have to. Who has the experience but wasn't able to get there quite yet. But you got that defense. You have weapons. You have a. So you Just look at Drake May.

[B]

Look, I'm not. Let me tell you what I'm not worried about with young quarterbacks. Caleb Williams. They lost. Caleb's gonna be fine. Right? Bears. You got Caleb Williams. You're gonna be fine. That's not a problem. Drake May with the Patriots. When Drake May had to play his best football at the end of that game, he made the plays and helped them win the game. Right. The Tide could have turned because that defense didn't stop coming at the Patriots. But Drake May figured, by the way, they were three and out, I think six times. Right. When it mattered most. Drake May has that thing in him that is able to perform. Patriots are going to be fine. Texans, you know, what if the Texans.

[A]

What if the. What a year. What a difference a year makes. Yeah. The Texans could come back and win it next year and their quarterback can have a great season.

[B]

I like C.J. stroud a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I thought he was going to come through in these situations. If I'm. It's not that I've seen enough and I'm willing to write him off. He may get it right.

[A]

I think he will get it right. I think he will get it right. And I.

[B]

You would hold on to him.

[A]

I think the Texans have time. I think the Tex. They don't have. They don't have five years, but they have one to two max. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. You're going to run it back with CJ Stroud. You give me. I mean, you give.

[A]

I would. Because it's not as. Here's the thing. Here's the thing, Bo.

[B]

Knicks wins that game. I'm just trying to think of the quarterbacks who I don't think of as good in the playoffs.

[A]

All those guys are on teams. When you make a trade in any sport, it takes two to tangle.

[B]

No, no, I'm not saying that he's available. I mean. And by the way, Bo Nix is now out for the playoffs. So Sean Payton, who's done an unbelievable job.

[A]

I told you Sean Payton was going to be the difference.

[B]

He was. He was. You picked Payton as a difference in that game. You're absolutely right.

[A]

Someone who doesn't know sports.

[B]

Now, now, now, the. Now, meantime, the Patriots have a ticket to the super bowl because they're playing a team without a quarterback. Right. Now, I'm not saying that Bo Nix is available. I'm saying, well, guess what?

[A]

We've seen this before, but Bo Nix.

[B]

Is not yet with the Patriots.

[A]

No. When Carson. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You see Nick Foles Tweet.

[B]

Oh, you're saying. But Nick Foles.

[A]

I saw Nick Foles the other day at the golf course too. Nick Foles, like.

[B]

But he's one of those dudes. Nick Foles, even before they went on that run, when you watched him in college, you're like, look at this.

[A]

I didn't realize how. I don't know. Maybe because we were all basically the same size in my mini league football team. Quarterbacks are huge.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. He's a strong guy. Big strong guy.

[A]

So a guy like in San Francisco, you have to tip your hat to him because he's not as Brock Purdy. Yeah, he's not as big as those guys.

[B]

If you have Brock purdy instead of C.J. stroud, you're going to win the super bowl this year. If you're the Texans, I'm. I'm telling you that right now. Bo Nix, I don't think is as good as Brock Purdy. How do you win the Super Bowl?

[A]

How do you know that?

[B]

I'll tell you this. You're going to win that game. You will win that game. You don't throw because those guys aren't going to throw four interceptions.

[A]

That game happen during the course of a game.

[B]

How many interceptions can you throw in two games? It's unbelievable.

[A]

All right, I understand that.

[B]

Look, that's. I think these playoffs.

[A]

But the goodest.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That was great.

[B]

Oh, the goodest is great.

[A]

That was. That was. But here's the thing. I'm trademarking you're so. I own the company. But guess what? If you want to buy into the company.

[B]

Oh, thank you.

[A]

You can.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

You didn't trademark it.

[B]

Yeah, well, we'll trademark it together. I'll cut you in. How's that?

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. My team trademarked it. So we'll talk to your team about it.

[B]

Quick beat Rich's team.

[A]

It's too late. It's too late.

[B]

God damn it.

[A]

Michael's still thinking about the loss last week.

[B]

You see the Knicks and the Lakers having a problem right now.

[A]

What kind of problem? I was at the game last night.

[B]

So you know what kind of problem?

[A]

No, it's a good game. They won.

[B]

Yeah, right, right. Yeah, yeah. Last night.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Second half a back to back, you know, it's a tough.

[B]

By the way, that's the second. They keep winning the second half of back to backs after looking bad in the first game.

[A]

I'll tell you something, what is that about? Well, I think that first of all, the NBA is full of Young guys, man, that can play.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, so when you run up against a team, that Portland team is trending up, I think people don't realize how good that team can be. Yeah, yeah. And when you have guys that are young, you6, 6, 6, 6, 7, 6, 8, 6, 9, you're basically switching everything on defense, getting out in transition. It's tough nowadays, but that makes sense.

[B]

Why you lose the first game. But if you're an older, less athletic team who just lost the game and look bad, how do you then win the second of the back to back?

[A]

Well, first of all, they keep doing it. Well, first of all, teams play better at. Tend to play better at home.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Last time they were on the road when LeBron went off, they were on the road the second of back to back in Atlanta against the team that had won their last three games. And they looked terrible the night before.

[A]

And they win all situations. I think again, all games are different. After a loss, you come back, I think you're a little bit more, you tend to be more focused, you tend to be more in tune to schemes and things like that. Last night I was watching the game and they played a lot of zone, they were zoning a lot and they kept, they kept saying five, which I imagine it has something to do with the big. I didn't really get the clarity on it, but what I saw last night was first of all, shot better from three.

[B]

I think that a lot in the modern NBA because so many threes are taken, the variance, like on a night to night basis, if you get a little hot from three, you can blow a team out, you get a little cold, you can get blown out.

[A]

Well, that's when you depend on the three point shot as much as teams do. Today you're gonna have that. But that Toronto team last night, that's a good team too. I mean, they have to get healthy. But when they're healthy, when you talk about lent, I mean, I'm looking at the guys you got six, eight, six, nine.

[B]

Bi was a big pickup for them.

[A]

Six, eight, you know, and they're active. They didn't shoot the three as well yesterday, but. And again, they were probably tired because I think they played, you know, in NBA games, I think people don't take into consideration. First of all, the travel is brutal. The travel is brutal.

[B]

Not going on commercial flights like they used to though.

[A]

Yeah. But still you max, I know people say, oh, they make a lot of money. Yes. But still going into a, going into a game where you maybe, maybe we Played the night before. Right. You travel from. Let's just say you coming from Toronto to la, that's a pretty long flight. Time change. You get in the next day, the game is a little bit early. Obviously most teams play well when they come into a big city, New York or la. Most teams play well. And most teams play well in Miami, believe it or not.

[B]

You mean in spite of the rumors, in spite of the theory that they go out at night. So they play worse.

[A]

It's actually the other way around. They play worse when you go to Portland. They play worse when you go to okc.

[B]

Remember you telling me this? Cause they lack energy.

[A]

You. Yeah, it's just like. And then not only do you lack energy, you're lacking energy and you're going up against a team that's like, they're coming out ready to play. So by the time you wake up, you down 17, they're coming out ready.

[B]

To play because there's not as much to do in those towns.

[A]

No, no, you make it about the town. Rich Paul says no, no, no. They come out ready to play because when those teams are good, like OKC is good right now and, and Portland is trending up and this is a game, you know their mind, they're ready to rock and roll. You're coming in there like half sleep. Maybe you came in off the night of a back to back, the second half of a back to back or something like that.

[B]

You're thinking about the next week, the next game you have, or you may.

[A]

Or you may be going to a bigger market city from there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so it's like you're kind of looking over this game. That's why in the NBA they call certain games a trap game. And you know on the schedule you'll say, oh, that's a trap game.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But you also know that also tells you when your team is rolling and when your team is gelling. And in order to get through an NBA season and those type of games, you have to gel like on the road.

[B]

You have to. So why haven't the Lakers and Knicks been gelling recently?

[A]

Well, I don't know. I mean, I haven't. I think injuries also hurts things for sure.

[B]

Brunson banged up, by the way, the Knicks lost Josh Hart for a while.

[A]

That's tough.

[B]

That's a Hart and school glue guy.

[A]

Because that's a. You know, when you have a guy of that magnitude, Games are won. 50, 50 balls. Games are won. That's Josh Hart getting out in transition points. Games are won after ATOS your execution. Atos games are won and then obviously you could say the foul line gain but obviously three point shooting matters.

[B]

That's where like that's why a guy like. So the Knicks and the Lakers both struggling. Josh Hart missing. The Knicks are bad. Right. But there are other problems with the Knicks too including Carl Anthony Townes offense recently. Right. Which I have a theory about by the way.

[A]

I haven't seen that. But what's happening there?

[B]

I mean my sense is that. Remember when he came out in that draft with Okafor and Town it was him and then d' Angelo Russell who went to the Lakers then it was Okafor and Townes went one. Cat went one. Partly because of the shot but also he seemed to have the athletic ability and the length and everything to defend like a modern big meaning out in space. Right. If he needed to. And it didn't work out that way. He really was a bad defender until this year. There was a stretch about a month or so ago where for a month, a good month I thought he was excellent defensively and my theory is cuz I can't come up with a better one is it wore him out a little bit and he's paying the price right now.

[A]

I mean when you have a seven foot guy that you're asking to. I don't know the schemes, right. But if they're, if they're. If they're Redding things or if they're switching with. With the big. Sometimes the big plays a drop. It all depends. I know Mike Brown teams, right. Mike Brown teams are going to have to guard number one. You just have to guard and so did Tibbs. Teams like Tibbs, those are old school coaches like they want you to guard on the defensive end. But then I don't think people understand even if depending on what the scheme may be they may have to. The rotations may be a certain way. So now you got a big running all the way over to somewhere else, another part of the area and if that. Normally that guy isn't asked to also produce offensive.

[B]

In other words if you look at a Mike Brown team, potentially the 4, 5 or cat in this case may actually if you log the miles he ran it goes up and so that.

[A]

Where brutal and then also to have a what I imagine a responsibility on the offensive end too. Yeah that takes a toll on you. But I think the biggest difference this year is pace of play. And you know when you look at the Mike Brown teams in Cleveland they played with a deliberate pace. Yeah. They didn't Play slow, but they didn't play as fast as his current teams have played. But also think about the, you know, the time he spent with the Golden State Warriors. That pace is different. Then you go to Sacramento. Well, you're taking what you just won a championship with with the warriors. And that's now part of your coaching.

[B]

Oh, he's a. If you're a good coach, you add.

[A]

Constantly adding that. You adjust to it. Right. Browns. But then now you bring that on the East. See, the Western Conference teams has always played a faster pace. That's why back in the day, Western Conference scores would be like 139 to 127. And then you look at the Phoenix.

[B]

Suns even before d'. Antoni.

[A]

Back in the day, Golden State, Phoenix, Lakers, Houston. But then you look Seattle. But then you look at the Eastern games, it's like 89, 84.

[B]

Knicks, pistons, heat.

[A]

Yeah, so. But Riley, Chuck Bailey. So quite naturally, you always thought, oh, well, the west coast teams would win the championship. They always. The Western Conference would always win the All Star Game.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And they would. But you would think that they would win the championship, too. But the only difference is in the.

[B]

Playoffs, the difference was Michael Jordan. Otherwise, the west does win the championship all the time.

[A]

I think the Showtime Lakers won. Yeah. Yeah. The Showtime Lakers won, obviously. Absolutely.

[B]

If you take Jordan out of it. Oh, my God. The west wins.

[A]

Almost everybody's in one, two.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then obviously, yeah, you take Jordan out of it. The West Wings, every.

[B]

The Lakers, the Warriors, but also the Spurs.

[A]

The point I wanted to make was more so about in the playoffs, the game actually slows down.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because it's just a different. Every possession matters. It's, you know, it's just a different shot selection that you're taking and things of that nature. So I think that added pace could also affect you, too. And then, you know, you just, you know, you just. We're in this space of like that late December, January when guys become eligible to be traded all the way up to the trade deadline, leading the All Star, it gets a little.

[B]

Little funky.

[A]

Yeah, but it always has. Yeah, it always has. But when teams were on roles, you would see the dominant team. I think that one year the Heat was like they had won 27 in a row. I think the record was like 33.

[B]

Must have been the Lakers in 72 with a 33, I'm guessing.

[A]

Maybe so. I don't know. But that's when you can really tell, like, how good your team really is if they're powering through that. Like some teams don't lose two games in a row.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know.

[B]

But here we have two of the biggest. The two biggest market teams. They're also the heritage teams in their towns. The Knicks and the Lakers, both struggling. And that's because just it's that time of year.

[A]

Well, I think it could be different from. For either team. You have to deal with injuries, shooting woes. You know, sometimes. One thing about those two teams in those two markets, you have to take the other team's best punch. Every team comes in and plays better. Every team. Because think about the circumstance. Whether you're in the Garden or whether you in. I still call it the Staples Center. Whether you're in this crypto. Yeah, yeah. But I'm nostalgic. So what? No matter what you're looking at everything. Everything matters from celebrity roles. Just. Just looking at those uniforms and what it means. Every kid dream of playing big on that stage to. So you're gonna get everybody's best shot. And that's a whole nother mental. I would say what I'm trying to say here from a mental perspective, that's an added layer. That's what I was looking for. That's an added layer, mentally, when you play on a team in a big market like that. So as you're looking at evaluating talent on those type of rosters, you're trying to put your roster together. That may not show up in the stat sheet, but that has to come into the equation as you're looking at the talent, too. Because it's not just talent. There's a mental component to this too, as they're going out every night taking somebody's best shot. Because I can guarantee you, if you ask any player that played on an opposing team how they went into those two markets and played versus if they ever had an opportunity to actually play on those two teams, they would describe.

[B]

But you know, there have been Lakers seasons where they've been great throughout the whole season. This is not one of those Lakers teams, obviously.

[A]

Well, listen.

[B]

AR Being hurt didn't help.

[A]

Listen.

[B]

But early in the season, rich, with no LeBron and no Luca, sometimes JJ had those guys. I know the schedule's a little softer then, but they were winning games and there was something. And the Knicks also look like a powerhouse. And maybe it's just a funny time of year, but last couple weeks, these teams have been. The Knicks have been struggling with a.

[A]

K. There's ebbs and flows, man. There's ebbs and flows during the NBA season. That's why, when you always talk to me about the season, you'd be like, oh, it's looking great, this and that. I don't get too high or too low. Never, never. And especially when you have championship expectations again, I think the regular season is all about building habits, building confidence, evaluating who you're going to actually keep going forward.

[B]

Speaking of which, there are some guys who were not kept and we've been meaning to talk about this. We keep saying we're going to talk about it and then we fill up the show with other stuff. But I want to bring it up since you just brought that up. Lamelo, Trey, Ja. Right, Three, not so long ago, three of the brightest stars, young rising stars in the league, and they've all kind of hit rocky patches in their careers. And I think it's safe to say these are all point guards. Right. You would categorize them all as point guards or no. Is there even a point guard anymore?

[A]

I think the point guard position has changed a lot. Yeah. I think when you say, is there a point guard anymore?

[B]

Is the point guard position dead? Is that what's happening with. With Lamelo, Tre and Ja these kind.

[A]

Of like, I think the point guard position is there. I think the point guard position is necessary. I think the point guard position is even more necessary in playoff settings because that's when you really need to get guys in spots. That's when you really need to be able to feel the game and read the game. Now there's different type of point guards and again, we're playing this positionless basketball. You'll hear this a lot like we have positionless basketball, but I guess, I imagine if you talk to any coach, at the end of the day, our game breaks down very simplistically. There's pick and rolls most of the time, where you're trying to find the weakest link on the defensive end and put that guy into a pick and roll. Right. That's where smaller guards are going to struggle defensively.

[B]

John, Trey.

[A]

Now, when you're talking about the bigger guards, right, the bigger guards, if they're able to really shoot it, seeing over the defense, making the right reads now, it's about what they have available to them. So if you're asking me is the point guard position dead in the NBA, I would say no. Has it changed? Absolutely. The one place it's changed is it's gotten a lot bigger in terms of the size you have to be now before.

[B]

Yeah. You have guys who would be threes back in the day, basically, as your Primary ball handler.

[A]

And you had guys like when Penny was a, a point guard, it was like, wow, like he was six' seven as a point guard. But it wasn't 16 pennies, it was one. Grant Hill was considered a point forward.

[B]

Yeah, he was a small forward.

[A]

He was considered, but he was considered a point forward because he could initiate the offense with the pick and roll. LeBron was always considered. I mean, he could be a 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, whatever you want to call it.

[B]

Primary ball handler.

[A]

The primary ball handler. So I think we've gone from. When I think about the point guard. The point guard had to not always be the best player on the team, but they had say, right. They had a jurisdiction. They were able to manage situations and put fires out and things like that. I think that part of the point guard position is no longer there.

[B]

You mean behind the scenes, even on the court?

[A]

Like the point guard always shot the technical fouls.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Now today, it's the most popular player that shoots the technical files, not always the point guard. Cause the point guard normally had the best free throw shooting percentage. The point guard did that. The point guard could, the point guard could talk to you as the captain of the team and say things to you that you would listen to them about. Right. That's no longer. I don't see it as much as we once seen it without having to be the best player of the team. Right. Prime example. I'm trying to think of the player that played for Duke. Right. I don't know how I drew a blank there. Wojowski was never the best player on the team, but he was the leader of that team. He was a point guard.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Jay Will played the point guard position, but he was more of just. He was the star player. Right. But he could, obviously he was one of the best guards ever in college. He could do it all. I don't think the point guard position is dead. I think the point guard position is no longer appreciated the way it once was. And I think that because these guys come in so tight, talented, that a lot of them, a lot of us aren't focusing on the details that once, that you once had to have, you had to have these things to be a point guard.

[B]

See, I, it's, it's, it's. When I think of the point guard position, it used to be there was a point guard on the team and that was his role. He brought the ball up the floor and he initiated the offense. And as you said, that's when I.

[A]

Thought I was going to be a Pro. That don't work that way. That don't work.

[B]

And then increasingly, I mean, even mj, he didn't always play point guard, but a lot of times he's got the.

[A]

Ball in there in that offense. But here's the thing. In the triangle offense, a lot of things is like a point guard is. I'm not sure how much responsibility.

[B]

We don't need to get bogged down in mj.

[A]

No, I'm just saying it's not about mj, it's about the triangle offense. I, I ran it in high school. I'm not sure how much of a traditional point.

[B]

Yeah, because usually, like Phil Jackson, we get a strong guy who could shoot the three, and that's technically the point guard. Even if he was kind of point guard.

[A]

Well, a harp play point for the Bulls. Yeah, he was six' six.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Not your typical point guard.

[B]

So. But I think of the point, the modern point guard, they take a tremendous scorer who can handle. And he runs the offense. James Harden is. James Harden's really a two guard, but no, he's actually the point guard on his team. Luka Doncic is a three, but he's actually the point guard. The only thing they don't do is guard the other point guard. Right. Like, but he's. But, but they're both running the offenses. LeBron usually ran his offense. Nowadays, like in the old days, the point guard was almost never the primary scorer on your team. And nowadays he was the facilitator.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Nowadays he is frequently the primary scorer on the team.

[A]

Who was the last best pure point guard you think you've seen?

[B]

Maybe Chris Paul.

[A]

Good choice. Yeah, he was definitely pure point. But again, this is what I'm saying. When you watched Chris Paul play, he managed everything, literally everything. And that's why I got too much.

[B]

He managed too much.

[A]

No, but here's what I'm saying. If you're saying you're upset about that, like, honestly, that's the type of point guard you want, right? That's the type of point guard you want. He's going to manage the game. He's going to control the game. He's going to tell you, no, slow it down. If he's. And here's the thing, the point guard and the coach has a relationship, like the quarterback and the coach on the football team. If you see something, you have the responsibility to ignore the play I called because I trust you just that much. And run what you see. That's what we used to have. Now, these guys are so talented and you're depending so much on their talent that it's like if it was food, you got all the things except for the vegetables. Right. You got everything else except for the nourishment. I think you still need that. Because what happens is when you get into the playoffs and you need every possession matters and you have to execute and you have to get guys in spots. That's where I think the point guard really matters.

[B]

Mostly that theory is testable. You have to look at who's winning championships and do they have that kind of point guard? Right. Like, is Jamal Murray that kind of point guard?

[A]

He can be.

[B]

Because when they didn't have him, forget it. When they had him, they won.

[A]

But here's what I'm saying. You also have another player on the team who also can make plays. And the offense is being initiated from a different point on the floor. If you're putting a guy.

[B]

Jrue Holiday is a point guard pure. And they won the championship with him.

[A]

On both ends of the floor.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. Drew Holiday actually, maybe his running the offense is not on the level that Chris Paul's was, obviously. But as an overall point guard, Jrue Holiday is kind of a classic example of the non all star winning point guard from the old star.

[A]

But that type of player is the guys you win with.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because they're guarding on the other end of the floor, they're making timely plays, they're coachable. And also don't get it twisted like they'll run 10 straight points, 12 straight points. Can shoot big, big shots.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But when you talk about Chauncey Billups again, this is what I'm saying. So I don't think the position is dead. I don't. I wish that there was a little bit more reprimanding and a little bit more patience from even our guys to be coached like we used to have for the bigs. Right. We used to have a guy, the Gerd camp. And you would go to Gerd camp as a big. Because when you went to Gerd's camp, you were really learning how to develop as a big both offensively and. And defensively. I'll give you a prime example. There's an art to setting screens. There is a true art to screen setting. And people don't realize it the way a big or anybody for that matter sets a screen, allows the ball, the ball handler to be open in a different capacity. There's also ways that, in other words.

[B]

It'S not just Kenny Roll or Kenny Pop.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's the actual screen it's how long you hold the blocking the screen is.

[A]

The angle that you've been tackling. Yes. And it also, sometimes if you're trying to get a switch, there's a time you have to hold that screen for a certain amount of time to get the switch. So there was a play the other day in a game I think we were watching. I think it was the, it was the Milwaukee game. The Milwaukee game. And at the end of that game, the ball was stolen from behind. I think Giannis had tipped the ball from LJ but if you, but if you watch the play, they were trying to get a switch. And your instincts, if you're a certain type of player as a shooter, you're trying to set the screen, but you're trying to like, almost like not slip it, but you almost trying to like a brush. You're setting a brush screen because you're getting open for a shooter. But if that shooter can understand and see, okay, he's my man guarding me as another shooter. So most shooters aren't what necessarily quick. And also defensive guys, like there's some that have been already most guys. So the guy is trying to get the screen, but as a shooter, I'm so used to setting a brush screen to get open that I'm not really understanding or recognizing in that moment. And this is split second stuff. But if you hold that screen for a little, and this is easier said than done, but if you hold that screen for a little bit longer where you can get to switch or even make it to where the other guy, who's probably a better defensive player, who's guarding the best, the best offensive player on the floor at that time, if you can hold that screen to where even that guy is getting a late attempt of getting back to where that offensive player can get just get his shoulder in front, then maybe that play doesn't happen.

[B]

What you're talking about is basketball iq, right?

[A]

So we had that with G developed.

[B]

And we had that with Gert.

[A]

I don't know if we ever had it from a point guard situation. I know, I know when guys would go and train, you would go to certain guys. Like if you went to train with John Lucas down in Houston, obviously you're going to train with him. You're going to get everything right because he's not. There's no shortcuts. So back in the day we had those spots and I think the game was a lot different.

[B]

When you mentioned you had Chinese food on Sundays.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What do you order?

[A]

What do I order?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, I get the beef and broccoli. I get the sesame chicken.

[B]

All right. You go for the classics.

[A]

I get. No, I get vegetable fried rice. All right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No bean sprouts, no onions.

[B]

All right. These are very standard order.

[A]

Standard every time. They know my order. Edamame.

[B]

They do. General Sal's where you are.

[A]

They do. Yeah.

[B]

Little orange chicken.

[A]

They do the orange chicken. I just get the sesame instead of the orange.

[B]

My sesame chicken, broccoli, garlic sauce, all of that.

[A]

Yes. But I'm not a. I'm also hungry. I don't eat a ton of thing. I'm not like this, you know, I'm pretty simple. And I don't. I'm probably eating like 15 minutes and I'm gone. Yeah, but the good thing about Chinese.

[B]

You don't have it delivered. You go out to Chinese.

[A]

Yesterday, I went in the restaurant and ate by myself.

[B]

I see.

[A]

I like to be by myself.

[B]

I see.

[A]

Cause that's where I figured when I.

[B]

Hear Chinese, I figured. You ordered.

[A]

No, sometimes they bring it to the house, but sometimes I go. I had to go to a game, so it was on my way to the game. It just so happened. So it just made sense. I think about all those things.

[B]

Chinese food is like pizza in the.

[A]

Sense that I'm gonna bring you. Where do you get your Chinese food from? In la?

[B]

In la, I don't really have a consistent spot. But Chinese food is like pizza in the sense that you. You can have the elevated version. Right. Like you have very fancy pizza or Chinese food. It's not really what you think of. When you think of pizza and Chinese food, what's hard to find is the classic slice of pizza or the classic kind of hole in the wall Chinese food.

[A]

You're from New York, so pizza for you. You're in, like, the Mecca of pizza.

[B]

Joe's Pizza on Carmine street is the best example of. Here is a classic slice of New York pizza. It's not fancy. It's not elevated. It's just a. It's the Aristotelian ideal of a.

[A]

So for most people who aren't in, like, the pizza mecca of the world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When I was young. Do you pick Domino's or Pizza Hut?

[B]

I couldn't tell you.

[A]

You couldn't tell.

[B]

Right. Because you're from New York. Same thing. Same thing. And Chinese food is the same thing. If you can find a hole in the wall Chinese spot that, you know, can do the whole thing, it's, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hard to find that classic example.

[A]

I prefer the hole in the wall spots. Yeah. And I'm gonna tell you nothing.

[B]

But it's hard to find good ones.

[A]

It is. I used to have a hole in the wall. All the hole in the wall spots that I was growing up with. Shaw Dairy, Open Pit. I love that they never remodeled. Use the same old skillet. Use the. You know, it's just probably a little unsanitary, but use the old grease on the stove. It just tastes different. Do you find it that soon as a restaurant, like remodels the food? Chase.

[B]

I'll tell you this.

[A]

The best spot. Don't get a new oven. Don't get new.

[B]

The best Chinese spot, hole in the wall spot of all time. I don't think it's there anymore. Was a place I forgot even what they called it on 100, on Amsterdam, between 106th and 7th Street. Hole in the wall spot. But you could see down through the kitchen. Right. Cause it's. Order out. You're not eating there. Stainless steel, everything's clean. You know what I mean? And it was the greatest. Regular Chinese food time.

[A]

That's a special thing. Cause normally. Normally that's not the case. No, normally that's not the case.

[B]

It's not.

[A]

Who do you have in a national championship?

[B]

Indiana.

[A]

You do. Why?

[B]

Because they have like, at a certain point, a team is so much better than everyone else. You just gotta tip your cap. Like Indiana is. They have older, more mature players have been joking a lot where it's like, hey, that's grown men playing teenagers. They're extremely well coached. They are just by a. Like a standard deviation or two better than everyone else. They're going to win.

[A]

Yeah. I think, first of all, I don't care who wins. Let me tell you why. Because they both beat my Buckeyes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So it'll make me. Whoever wins the n. National championship and we lost to them, it makes me feel better.

[B]

But in another way, you have the basketball. When you have the school you associate with basketball maybe about to stomp everybody through the playoffs and be the national title winner. Or you have, I mean to call it traditional, but, you know, 20 years ago, Miami was the.

[A]

Yeah. Miami was always a football powerhouse. Yeah.

[B]

So you get the throwback or you get the brand new thing, but I.

[A]

Look at it a little bit different. I think it's more so, like you said, experienced players and obviously experienced, but also just prepared. Right. But they're older, I guess, whatever, versus just talent. Like the talent. Not only talent, but. Cause I think they're well coached, too. But the talent on Miami is off the charts. You have some just that those two edges.

[B]

Carson Beck's been playing extremely well.

[A]

Carson Beck, who's also experienced.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

But when I was thinking about this, I thought about it a little bit different and I'm like, you know what? I think the rules need to change in college.

[B]

Which ones?

[A]

Several. First of all, when you think about the fact that today I could be in school playing against a 25 or 26 year old person, right. And there's a rule that you cannot leave school until after three years of college. Now, I understood that rule in football because just the physicality and things like that going into the NFL and for whatever reason, you may not be eligible to go. I mean, you know, you just may not be ready yet, quite ready. So they think. But to not be able to go and still have to play against guys that if I did go, it's probably some of these guys would be the same age as guys I'm playing in college with, that just seems a little outdated to me.

[B]

There's. There are some rules that need to be.

[A]

Now, I'm not saying that you should be able to go as a freshman, but I am saying that if you are good enough to go as a freshman, maybe we have a committee, right. There's 32 NFL teams. Maybe you just have a vote and if you get a majority based upon the evaluation, you can then go. Because when you look at guys like Jeremiah Smith, when you look at this young man like Tony out of Miami, and also the cornerback who's playing really well, I think is also a freshman. To not be able to take advantage of my opportunity while you're playing a full contact sport. While I'm playing a full contact sport. Because it's also led me to something else. I thought about, wait, first of all.

[B]

Who you taking in the game?

[A]

I don't care who wins.

[B]

I'm not saying. Who do you predict is gonna win? Who do you think is gonna win?

[A]

Flip a coin? I don't know. I don't know. Because my mind went somewhere else because I thought about. Also this just took me back to Maurice Caret.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Maurice Carett had one of the best Ohio State running back freshman years that you can have as a running back. And he wasn't able to take advantage of his opportunity. There was no nil number one. And he was the biggest thing. And he wasn't able to go because of this rule. I mean, I'm a sue the NFL. You're not winning. Right. And Maurice Caress my Guy. And I was just thinking about him.

[B]

He won the national title.

[A]

Yeah. And I'm like, there should have been. He should have been able to go in front of a committee and get a vote, and a majority vote says he can go.

[B]

Something like that could happen now because.

[A]

So much has changed, because now everything changes for him. He's a top 10 pick. Who knows what team you go on, you get your NFL pension. The optics and everything is different.

[B]

Circumstances different now, if memory serves, Claret's parents bought insurance, didn't they?

[A]

Yeah, but that didn't. That's a whole nother.

[B]

I think that was the whole thing.

[A]

That's a whole nother conversation.

[B]

But I may be wrong about that. That's off the top of the heads 20 years ago.

[A]

But what I'm saying to you is, it's just. I think it's an unfair. Like, I didn't understand it as much back then, but today I'm looking at it. I'm looking at it through a different lens. Right. And it's looking a little funny on the NBA side of things. It's the same thing. The fact that if I'm a. If I'm a really good high school player, I'm barely getting recruited now because, you know, these roster spots are going to older guys because of the NIL and the transfer window and all that. So why am I being held? Why I can't just go pro? And in this case, we only got one year for guys to be able to go. But in this case, if I'm a freshman and I'm getting to a team and I want to go to a team and play well, but I may want to pick a school. That school don't have as much money as the next school. So now I get to this school and I don't have as many weapons around me as I normally probably would have. Now, does it affect your draft stock for some guys, for the guys that are for sure guys, or we think they're for sure guys, not as much. But still, you know, I'm also. Now I have to go to a school, and I'm being positioned a certain way. Maybe I'm developing or not developing the way I should be. I just think it's like school, for example, the textbooks that a lot of kids are learning from, especially in public school. These are old textbooks. So the teachings are from 60 years ago. So how are we helping them?

[B]

You want to update it?

[A]

Yeah, we have to. I think we have to update the rule because. And I'm not saying just Totally throw the rule out the window. I'm saying put something in place. Because if I want to go pro and there's a rule stopping me from going pro, the talent evaluator should be able to vote and say yes. We vote. The majority vote says yes. That he can go.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know if voting would work, the more I'm thinking about it, because now you're. It's subjective according to.

[A]

Yeah, but we have to have something.

[B]

You got to apply things. You at least have to have everybody.

[A]

But I'm saying if, If. If the league. If the NBA teams are voting or the NFL teams are voting for talent.

[B]

Evaluation, just get rid of the rule. Just get rid of the. Well, why vote? Just get rid of the rule. If it's. If it. If it doesn't work anymore.

[A]

I was trying to. I was trying to find a happy medium. Yeah.

[B]

I mean.

[A]

Yeah, getting rid of the rule would be. Yeah, I think the rules.

[B]

We could do a whole pot on rules that should. They should get rid of. I got one in the NBA, but we could do that another day.

[A]

I know what you about to say. You're so mad about this rule.

[B]

I cannot take the gather step thing. It ruined the NBA for me. Like, the gather step is such bullshit. It used to be like you're learning as a little kid about a layup, how many steps you can take. Right now.

[A]

They.

[B]

Oh, if you time it so that you catch the ball on the gather step, somehow they've figured out you can take at least three steps. And now guys are jumping back. You saw what's his name do it. Jumping back. Because who says you have to be going to the basket? One, two, three. It's like they're taking three, four steps.

[A]

Ridiculous. You have ptsd, don't you? About the electric slide. You couldn't do it.

[B]

It was. It was unpleasant. It's unbelievable what I'm saying.

[A]

It's okay.

[B]

Back in the day.

[A]

Listen, there's a lot of line dances I see him doing now. And it's the. You know when you go to the events, the parties, and they get to doing the dance. I can't do them either, Max, so don't worry about it.

[B]

No, I used to pop and everything, man. I could glide everything. Moonwalk, glide.

[A]

Well, you should be able to gather step. What you mad to gather step for?

[B]

As a fan, I'm watching this bullshit constantly. The reason the scores are so high is because guys can pick up the ball and just run down the court with it.

[A]

Well, I don't Know, wait a minute, nobody's getting up and running down the court.

[B]

Basically they are. I've seen dudes take four. Like it started with Chris Paul used to get those little extra steps around the corner. When he went around the corner on a guy and he little legs, he'd let him get four steps. But nowadays everyone's allowed and they saying. And then they try to justify it. Well, by the rules, this is actually my gather step. Two, three.

[A]

Do you know?

[B]

And now I'm going to the basket.

[A]

No, do you know? I don't know if it's most, but a lot of pros can get from one basket to the next with basically like one dribble.

[B]

Yeah, but that's not what they're doing. They're do. They can do it with one dribble. Back in the old days, Rich, if you dribbled in such a way that you were even able to take two steps in a dribble, that's a travel, right? Like everything was a travel.

[A]

Yeah, but they were playing with like they didn't, they didn't have episodes and.

[B]

All talking about the league after the ABA absorption, after the shot clock, the whole thing, three point shot, everything they used to call travels and this bullshit.

[A]

They still call travel. I was at a game.

[B]

You have to buy a plane ticket to get called for a travel. Like.

[A]

No, I just saw. I just saw Traveling was called twice. It might have been last night. I watched so many games. I think it was last night. Traveling was called.

[B]

You actually have to probably run like across the court to get caught.

[A]

No, I understand what you're saying.

[B]

I understand Grayson Allen is the one who did it.

[A]

He takes the euro step. You think the euro step led to.

[B]

Yes. No, it was when they changed the rule that. And people see if you have a rule that people figure out how to manipulate, which they always will, and it starts making the product worse. You gotta change the rule. So it was like you get the gather step. So then people figured out if you time the gather step so you land as you gather the ball. They figured out somehow that according to the rules, you can take now three steps that should never happen.

[A]

But I can make the argument for the rules were terrible. Back in the day, I saw a charge. I saw a charge on somebody. I'm like, that's not a charge. I saw Magic Johnson do literally one, two layup. And they called travel. He might have dunked it. And they called travel. So okay, the rules were, well, maybe.

[B]

They got that call wrong. But anyway, we could do a whole Other thing on rules changes. Cause the gather step is killing me. It's killing me. And the whole Euro thing with the gather step and the manipulation of that is ruining the NBA for me. But, you know. Well, let's end on a high note.

[A]

No, listen, I understand what you're saying. We can go back and forth about it all between the voting and the rules and all these different things. The reality of it is sports is in a great place.

[B]

NFL is for sure.

[A]

Yeah. But I think. And college football, too.

[B]

Football is.

[A]

Football is. Football is.

[B]

Football is.

[A]

Football is for sure.

[B]

You're getting it right.

[A]

Yes. But did you see that? Speaking of the national championship, Mark Fletcher's mom, the kid at Miami, does not fly.

[B]

Yeah. You texted me the link.

[A]

I think she's driven 18,000 miles. Yeah. What that brought me to was this is where motherly love. Motherly love is a strong thing. A strong thing for. I mean, obviously we've seen it time and time again, but that is insane.

[B]

That's a lot of miles.

[A]

That's a lot of miles. And they're in it. And remember you asked me, like, do they actually know the sport? We were talking about Tyrese's and Darius Mount.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You think they don't? Driving 18,000 miles to every game knows more than me. Know more than me and you put together. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

All right, listen, I'll see you on Wednesday.

[A]

Wednesday. There's no Monday night games. It's no. Okay.

[B]

So we got some NBA, though.

[A]

We do have some NBA. I think it's a full slate tonight or as full as it can get.

[B]

It's time to bring a guest on. I think. I think we gotta have a guest on.

[A]

I've been asking you to bring a guest on.

[B]

All right, let's do a guest. I'm not saying.

[A]

Do you have anybody in mind?

[B]

I have a few ideas. We'll talk about it.

[A]

I wonder. What. Who should we bring on the show? Let's ask. Okay, why don't we ask? Vote on who we should bring on the show.

[B]

Game over. Max Kellerman. Rich Paul.

[A]

Please subscribe.

[B]

See you on Wednesday. Must be 21 and over in present select states. For Kansas, an affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-87-7-8, Hope NY or text Hope NY in New York.