Podcast Summary: Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

Episode: Difference in NFL Quarterbacks, and Point Guards in the Modern NBA

Date: January 19, 2026
Host: The Ringer

Overview

In this spirited episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul take a deep dive into the evolving definitions of greatness in the NFL’s quarterbacks, the distinction between “goodest” and “greatest,” how the NBA’s point guard role has transformed, and how the mental and physical demands of high-level sports require adaptation and perspective. They contextualize their insights with recent playoff games, personal anecdotes, and historical references, all while keeping their signature banter and humor front and center.

Key Topics & Insights

1. MLK Day Reflections & Opening Banter (00:05–03:31)

• Acknowledging MLK Day:
  Rich Paul shares two favorite Martin Luther King Jr. quotes and both hosts reflect on the power of leading with integrity, especially under adversity.

  • “The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of convenience and comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.” — Rich Paul quoting MLK (02:07)
  • “Let no man pull you so low as to hate him.” — MLK, shared by Rich Paul (03:10)

• Lighthearted exchange about fashion and nostalgia for school teachers sets a relaxed, friendly tone.

2. The Goodest vs. Greatest Debate – NFL Quarterbacks (04:33–15:45)

• Defining "Goodest" vs. "Greatest":
  Max introduces a new framework:

  • “Goodest” = the player with the highest excellence day-to-day, best skill, execution, and consistency.
  • “Greatest” = the one who delivers in the moments of truth, especially when the stakes are highest.

• Ali Example:
  Max uses Muhammad Ali as an example. As a young boxer, Ali was so good it was hard to gauge greatness. His true greatness was revealed when he battled adversity later in his career.

  • “When [Ali] got older and worse...is when you realize how great he was, because he had to prove his heart, his chin, his will to win.” — Max Kellerman (07:06)

• NFL Playoff Analysis:

  • Josh Allen: Dubbed the “goodest” quarterback, Max observes that Allen’s extraordinary skills don't always translate to ‘greatness’ in crunch time.
  • Matthew Stafford: Praised as “greater”—less spectacular day-to-day than Allen, but delivers game-deciding performances under intense pressure, e.g., comeback wins against Tom Brady and now Caleb Williams.
    • “Stafford has done the hardest thing in sports multiple times: win when the other team is destined to win, but you win instead.” — Max (15:19)
  • Caleb Williams: Despite a loss, demonstrated ‘greatness’ by making an all-time throw under snow and pressure.
    • (On Williams’s escape and throw:) “I haven’t seen every NFL pass, but that has to be one of the greatest NFL passes ever thrown…” — Rich Paul (13:02)

• C.J. Stroud and The Texans:

  • Max questions Stroud’s ability to seize the moment, arguing that wasting a generational defense is a rare mistake.
    • “You don’t have time to mess around with a quarterback who can’t get it done.” — Max (19:00)
  • Rich pushes back, preaching patience: “Sometimes I feel like people want these guys to win tomorrow.” (18:37)

• Team Building and Championship Windows:

  • Agreement that championship windows are much shorter—“one to three years”—than most fans or execs believe.
  • Example: The Texans are “already there,” so urgency for a top-tier QB is real.

3. NFL Coaching Carousel and Team Dynamics (15:45–22:24)

• Sean McDermott’s Future:
  • Discussion about the natural cycle of coaches in relation to team performance ceilings.
  • Rich hopes McDermott lands with the Browns, lamenting “Why can’t we, my Browns, be on the other end of a mistake for once?”

4. NBA: Back-to-Back Games & Variability (25:02–36:23)

• Lakers, Knicks & Back-to-Back Performances:

  • Both teams, despite age/injuries, win second games in back-to-backs after looking poor. Max and Rich credit both home-court advantage and renewed focus after a loss.
  • Rich emphasizes how the influx of young, athletic talent and defensive switching makes it hard for older teams.

• Travel and Energy Factor:

  • Rich details how brutal NBA travel is, disputes common narratives about “fun cities” leading to poor performance, and describes how “trap games” are identified and can define a team’s character.

• Injuries, Team Chemistry, and the “Glue Guy”:

  • Loss of players like Josh Hart or Brunson for the Knicks—a “glue guy”—can disproportionately impact a team’s edge.

• Impact of Pace and Defensive Schemes:

  • Mike Brown and others adapt coaching around increased pace and switching, with legacy references to the historical east/west style split.

5. Evolution (and Survival) of the NBA Point Guard (39:01–49:07)

• Are True Point Guards Disappearing?

  • Max wonders if the “point guard” role is fading as teams go “positionless.”
  • Rich says the role persists but has grown larger in average physical size, and the classic leadership, floor-managing point guard (e.g., Chris Paul) is less valued or rare.
    • “I don’t think the point guard position is dead. I think the point guard position is no longer appreciated the way it once was.” — Rich (43:34)

• Role Changes & Talent Dynamics:

  • Modern primary ball-handlers (Doncic, Harden, LeBron) often aren’t “pure” point guards.
  • Discussion of “point forwards” (Penny, Grant Hill, LeBron) and the modern scoring point guard.

• Importance in the Playoffs:

  • Great, high-IQ point guards (Jrue Holiday, Chauncey Billups) are still crucial in championship contexts.
  • “Because what happens is, when you get into the playoffs... that’s where I think the point guard really matters.” — Rich (46:45)

• Skill Development & IQ:

  • Rich laments the decline in old-school fundamentals, like setting perfect screens or reading switches (“There is a true art to screen setting…” — Rich, 49:07).

6. Food Talk Interlude: Chinese Food & Pizza Metaphors (51:42–55:13)

• Chinese Food Rituals:
  • Rich shares his Sunday ritual of eating beef & broccoli, sesame chicken at local spots—comparing good hole-in-the-wall food to the importance of authenticity.
  • Max, being a native New Yorker, draws parallels to the “classic slice” of pizza (Joe’s Pizza on Carmine St.).

7. College Football Final & Eligibility Rules (55:20–62:33)

• Predictions and Team Strengths:

  • Max predicts Indiana to win the national championship, citing age and maturity.
  • Rich prefers a scenario where if his alma mater loses, it's to the eventual champ.

• NCAA Rule Critique:

  • Rich critiques age- and eligibility-based draft rules, arguing that exceptional young players should have committee opportunities to go pro.
    • “If you are good enough as a freshman, maybe we have a committee… based upon the evaluation, you can then go.” — Rich (57:57)
  • Brings up Maurice Clarett, the running back whose pro prospects were hampered by eligibility restrictions.

8. NBA Rules & The "Gather Step" Rant (62:36–66:31)

• Max’s Pet Peeve:
  • The gather step’s expansion in NBA rules frustrates Max, who claims it’s made traveling rampant and artificially exaggerated scoring.
    • “It used to be…as a little kid…how many steps you can take. Right now…they figured out you can take at least three steps.” — Max (63:00)
  • Debate if the NBA should revisit or revert rule changes, with a humorous detour about line dances and basketball’s stylistic evolution.

9. Final Thoughts & Memorable Moments (66:44–end)

• On the State of Sports:

  • Both agree that, overall, the NFL and football (including college) are in great places; sports culture is thriving.

• On Parental Support:

  • Heartwarming story about Mark Fletcher’s mother driving 18,000 miles to see his games, emphasizing family dedication in sports development.
    • “Motherly love is a strong thing. That is insane.” — Rich (67:23)

• Guest Tease:

  • The hosts contemplate potential guests for future episodes and encourage audience suggestions.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On MLK’s Significance:
  "I’d say he’s the greatest public orator I’ve ever seen or heard... what he did, to make people feel like they wanted to be the best versions of themselves, to uplift in that way and feel, you know. I don’t think anyone’s done it as well as him...” — Max Kellerman (01:24)

• Defining Greatness in Sports:
  “No matter how good you are, can you be great? Can you summon that when it matters most?” — Max (15:06)

• On NBA Point Guards:
  “I think the point guard position is no longer appreciated the way it once was... these guys come in so talented, a lot of us aren’t focusing on the details.” — Rich Paul (43:34)

• On Rule Changes:
  “It used to be... how many steps you can take. Right now... they figured out you can take at least three steps. And now guys are jumping back... It’s like they’re taking three, four steps.” — Max (63:00)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• MLK Discussion & Leadership Quotes: 00:07–03:31
• Goodest vs. Greatest in Sports: 04:33–15:45
• NFL’s Playoff QB Performances: 07:03–15:06
• NFL Coaching Carousel: 15:45–22:24
• NBA Back-to-Back, Team Chemistry: 25:02–36:23
• Modern NBA Point Guard Debate: 39:01–49:07
• Screen Setting & Basketball IQ: 49:07–51:16
• Food Interlude (Chinese & Pizza): 51:42–55:13
• College Football Eligibility Rules: 55:20–62:33
• NBA “Gather Step” Rule Critique: 62:36–66:31
• Parental Dedication: 67:03–67:40
• Future Guests Tease & Sign-off: 68:02–End

Memorable & Light Moments

• Rich uses “goodest” (a made-up word) as a playful, trademarkable idea, prompting laughter about their own “companies.”
• Max and Rich’s extended riff on pizza and Chinese food, drawing an analogy to classic, authentic sports experiences.
• Heartfelt appreciation of Mark Fletcher’s mother’s cross-country devotion.

Conclusion

This episode showcases Max and Rich’s ability to weave sports commentary with cultural insight, personal stories, and playful banter. Listeners walk away with a deeper understanding of the evolving demands on quarterbacks and point guards, the fleeting nature of championship windows, and the staying power of both tradition and family in sports culture.