Face of the NBA, More on Tanking, and a College Basketball Primer

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

Host: The Ringer
Episode: Face of the NBA, More on Tanking, and a College Basketball Primer
Date: February 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Max Kellerman and super-agent Rich Paul dive deep into some of the NBA's biggest narratives: who deserves to be the face of the league post-LeBron, the dynamics and ethics of tanking, and provide a comprehensive preview of the upcoming college basketball draft class. The conversation is rich with behind-the-scenes insights, honest debates, and trademark humor as the duo explore legacy, responsibility, strategy, and the future of the sport.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Reflections & Personal Stories

Collecting, Hoarding, and Sentimental Value

• Max and Rich swap stories about growing up as collectors, the sentimental value of childhood items, and the tension between nostalgia and living clutter-free.
• Notable moment: Rich recounts how his mom sold rare sneakers from his collection at a fish fry/yard sale hybrid.
  • “She’s hitting you with the spaghetti, the fish wings, and a side of a sneaker.” — Rich Paul (04:08)
• Max reflects on the limits of sentimentality and the ego attached to keeping objects that, after one passes, have no real value to others.
  • “When you’re gone, they’re not going in the Rich Paul Museum... the sentimental value… is not in the object, it’s in you.” — Max Kellerman (06:05)

The Face of the NBA: After LeBron

LeBron’s Unprecedented Place

• Max notes how even during the NBA’s “dead spots” in the calendar, LeBron dominates the conversation: "He’s been the face of the league for decades now. Decades." (11:27)
• Rich emphasizes the weight of the face-of-the-league responsibility:
  • “It is much more than stats… It’s a responsibility that you have to embrace. You have to be present and you have to show up and conduct yourself a certain way.” — Rich Paul (13:16)
• The discussion pivots to how after Michael Jordan's retirement, the league didn’t have a single face but rather a "collective" — Iverson, Vince Carter, Kobe, Shaq, T-Mac (14:13-14:32).
• Max underscores how LeBron has uniquely handled the spotlight through the social media era with remarkable poise (15:46-16:10).

Criteria for Being the Face

• Rich distinguishes "popularity" from "demand," and how LeBron’s brand was meticulously curated, with a strong team behind him (17:36-20:32).
• Both agree: to be the face, you must be the league’s best and a consistent winner.
• LeBron’s absence from the dunk contest is debated—not as a knock, but as an example of the unique obligations stacked on NBA icons (21:45–27:07).

Next Up: Who Will Lead the League?

• Max asks: Who is best positioned to be the face as LeBron's era ends?
• Rich’s take: "I still think it’s a community, but I think that community is led by Anthony Edwards. I think Anthony Edwards is the best player in our league today." (28:32)
• Max counters with Jokic. They debate Edwards’ case—athleticism, two-way play, relentless competitiveness—and why style, physique, and charisma matter (29:16–36:13).
• The challenge: Wembanyama (Wemby) breaking dual barriers as a foreign-born big man potentially becoming the NBA’s face.
  • “Wemby might be the first guy who as a big, can genuinely be the face of the league.” — Max Kellerman (35:10)

The Modern Media & Fan Landscape

• Changes in how youth consume basketball—shorter attention spans, emphasis on highlights, tough for anyone to dominate a cultural conversation the way past icons did (33:52–35:29).

Legacy, Winning, and the East/West Debate

The “Easy East” Narrative

• Addressing David Griffin’s comment that LeBron had it easy in the Eastern Conference. Both dissect if this reduces LeBron’s legacy.
• Max: "Clearly, the east was easier than the West. There’s no denying that. Clearly, that helped LeBron James get to a bunch of Finals… However, we have to look at the details, right? The devil’s in the details." (37:45–38:59)
• Rich argues that beating the best in the finals and carrying teams validates LeBron’s path, regardless of conference (38:59–44:36).
• They agree: It’s a longstanding reality that the West has often been deeper, but that’s outside any one player’s control.

Mark Cuban, Tanking, and Franchise Logic

The Tanking Debate

• Mark Cuban’s contrarian view: The league doesn’t have a tanking problem; hope and the fan experience come first.
• Max's passionate five-minute case:
  • “If I’m a Jazz fan, every game they win, I feel like I want to sue them for negligence. Are you joking? Of course you want to lose.” — Max Kellerman (49:02)
  • He argues that it’s rational for teams to look out for their future, even if it means short-term losses. Tanking is seen as a legitimate, strategic choice given draft incentives.
• Rich agrees, emphasizing that franchises must educate their fan base and that “positioning” in the draft is everything (53:50).

College Basketball Primer

Standouts in the 2026 Draft

• Rich presents a run-through of top names: Caleb Wilson, Darren Peterson, AJ, Boozer.
• For sleepers, he spotlights:
  • Keegan Wagler (Illinois): High pace, ascendant.
  • Christian Anderson (Texas Tech): Underrated, strong shot-making.
  • Isaiah Harwell (Houston): "The new version of Josh Hart" but a better shooter.
• He breaks down what matters for big men—hands, screen-setting, IQ, and motor (56:44–59:19).

UCLA & College Basketball’s Culture

• Rich laments UCLA’s slide from basketball supremacy, advocates for younger, more relatable coaching staff and keeping the program plugged in with local hoop culture (61:22–64:27).
• Both agree on the value of seeing blue blood schools like UCLA stay strong, but also root for the game’s evolution.

Pistons Prognostication & Playing Styles

• Max and Rich both like Detroit as a playoff dark horse—rooting for their defensive identity and team-first mentality.
• Discussion of basketball strategy evolution:
  • “Every team has an identity. Yeah, we have to get back to that. Every team can’t run the same plays all the time… Have an identity, build around your star, build an authenticity within your culture and your playing style.” — Rich Paul (68:02)
• Trends in offense—three-point shooting vs. undervalued midrange—highlight how the league cycles through strategic innovation, referencing the Bucks, Warriors, and analytics revolutions (68:10–70:16).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It takes a lot to be the face of the NBA. It really does. And I think… it is much more than stats."—Rich Paul, 13:16
• "If you’re dumb enough to think that when discussing LeBron James’ career, there shouldn’t be effusive praise, I don’t know what to tell you."—Max Kellerman, 22:20
• "He [LeBron] wanted to do the dunk contest... He was just more of an in game guy."—Rich Paul, 25:05
• "You have to win. Winning matters… you have to be in a position to win consistently."—Rich Paul, 36:54
• "If I’m a Jazz fan, every game they win, I feel like I want to sue them for negligence."—Max Kellerman, 49:02
• "Every team has an identity… build an authenticity within your culture and your playing style."—Rich Paul, 68:02

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:56–02:51 | Sentimental hoarding & entrepreneurial roots
• 10:15–11:27 | LeBron's lasting media presence
• 11:27–16:10 | What defines the face of the NBA?
• 21:45–27:07 | LeBron and the Dunk Contest decision
• 28:32–36:34 | Who’s the next face of the league? (Anthony Edwards vs. Jokic, Wemby discussion)
• 37:22–47:02 | LeBron’s legacy, the “Easy East” debate
• 47:02–53:58 | Mark Cuban’s “no tanking problem”/Tanking deep dive
• 54:03–61:11 | College basketball & 2026 draft class analysis
• 61:22–64:32 | UCLA’s basketball identity and coaching culture
• 66:01–70:16 | Detroit Pistons’ growth, strategic identity, midrange revolution

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Tone, Language & Flow

• The episode maintains a conversational, candid, and humorous tone throughout.
• Max is energetic and occasionally self-deprecating, while Rich is insightful, laid-back, and often tells stories with a relatable touch.
• The hosts debate but listen closely to each other, often pushing the conversation deeper with follow-up questions and personal examples.

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For Those Who Haven’t Listened

This episode showcases the marriage of inside knowledge and fan perspective—balancing nostalgia, honest debates, and the business realities that shape pro and college basketball today. It’s a must-listen for fans who enjoy layered discussion about NBA culture, league leadership, strategy, and what to look for in tomorrow’s stars.
Essential takeaway: The question of who leads the NBA next is wide open, tanking remains hotly debated but logical, and the next college class is loaded with names to watch—always through the lens of experience, competitiveness, and authenticity.

Transcript

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[Rich Paul]

Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax. And let go of whatever you're carrying today.

[Commercial Narrator]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.

[Rich Paul]

And breathe.

[Commercial Narrator]

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[Max Kellerman]

1-800-contacts. So I'm watching this black Quarterback's doc. Field Generals Rise of the Black Quarterback on Peacock, Episode one. I know you sat for interviews. So did I. So I said, oh, we're gonna see you and me in this doc. So I watched episode one. There I was. No Rich Paul. Good episode. But they had to dance.

[Rich Paul]

Why do you have to say, I'm

[Max Kellerman]

just telling you, I'm waiting for you. Then episode two was great. Episode two was great. Cause episode one, they had to explain a lot of the history, and it was interesting. But episode two was great. No, Rich Paul, what's going on?

[Rich Paul]

What you mean? It's a documentary. How many parts is it?

[Max Kellerman]

Six, seven, four, I think.

[Rich Paul]

Only four?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And you already watched two.

[Max Kellerman]

I watched two.

[Rich Paul]

Well, maybe I didn't make the cut.

[Max Kellerman]

Better be in the cut in the third one. You gotta give him a call. Listen, you have me.

[Rich Paul]

Sit down. The thing about it is I'm gonna wait till all of them come out so I can binge it.

[Max Kellerman]

Binge it. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I wanna binge. Watch. I wanna binge watch it.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, that's good. But you say it's good, right?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Episode. Episode one was good. It was like, you know, a good documentary. Episode two was like, that's some good entertainment there. Boy.

[Rich Paul]

When are we gonna bring one of those quarterbacks on the show? That's my thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Warren Moon, right?

[Rich Paul]

Warm Moon. Yeah, I prefer Warm Moon, but I'll take any of them.

[Max Kellerman]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

Honestly, how do you. Are you a hoarder?

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, this is actually. That's actually a Big topic for me right now especially. Cause I just moved back to la. I'm not. I. Like, I used to as a. As when I was younger, I have a tendency to save too much stuff. And then you realize, man, this is just. Once you. Once something hits the garage or the closet or something like that, that we. It's garbage already. Get rid of it. Right. But I have daughters. I had like, you know, so the house has too much stuff.

[Rich Paul]

I'm more so. From a clothes and shoes perspective. I give away a lot, though. What? I give away tons of stuff. Just get it out of here, pretty much. But I'm not going to lie. Some pieces you cannot give away. And my mother, she did something that was very drastic to me, where she basically had a fish fry with shoes on the side that she sold. Yeah, my mother actually did this.

[Max Kellerman]

So it's like a yard sale, but it's steroids.

[Rich Paul]

No, it's a fish fry.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

With a yard sale component to it. Got it. But this yard sale included.

[Max Kellerman]

Great idea. That's a great idea.

[Rich Paul]

Some crazy, like, shoes that you'll never get back. Like, these things aren't even coming out anymore. And I was seeing. I'm like, hey, man, where'd you get those shoes from? And he's like, oh, I just got them around the corner for $20. I'm like, what?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right, right.

[Rich Paul]

And it's Mom, Duke. So what you. I mean, first of all, you know,

[Max Kellerman]

this is why you're entrepreneurial, though. Like, it's so interesting. You had a father who owned a store, and your mom obviously had an entrepreneurial side to it.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, forget about it.

[Max Kellerman]

So you're an entrepreneur.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Hey, mom and dad, what's up? Can you either one of you be entrepreneurs, please?

[Rich Paul]

She's hitting you with the spaghetti, the fish wings, and a side of a sneaker.

[Max Kellerman]

Wait, it was your stuff?

[Rich Paul]

Yes. These are my shoes that I'm not wearing.

[Max Kellerman]

I thought you meant like her old stuff. No, no, your old stuff.

[Rich Paul]

My old stuff. Not even old stuff stuff.

[Max Kellerman]

That stuff that you look at that

[Rich Paul]

is like premier things that I got from sneaker Pimp for years I'm stacking

[Max Kellerman]

up and then you see your friend with your.

[Rich Paul]

Not even a friend. Some kid I don't even know this kid. And I'm like, what. What is going on here?

[Max Kellerman]

So I've been looking for those.

[Rich Paul]

There's. There's certain parts of hoarding that I'm like, it's a must, right?

[Max Kellerman]

You mean certain collector item stuff?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, like there's some Things that Ralph is not going to bring back out. There's certain things.

[Max Kellerman]

You got baseball cards when you were a kid?

[Rich Paul]

I did, yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

You still have any of them?

[Rich Paul]

My grandmother's attic. By the way, I went to my grandmother's house after my Uncle Charlie finally passed away. I went to my grandmother's house with my uncle and we had to clean out stuff. I literally found old pair of dice that I used to practice on, right? And I took them. I found a note from my principal, Mr. Reynolds, to my dad. As my dad was, you know, paying for me to go to school, meanwhile, I could have just paid for myself. This is a whole nother story with those dice my dad didn't even he had owed. But these are sentimental things to me.

[Max Kellerman]

There are. But rich, you know, the thing about. And I'm a sentimental guy, like, there are things my kids did when they were small where I can't throw them away. It's like a picture. It's a thing.

[Rich Paul]

I can't throw them away.

[Max Kellerman]

But the problem with sentimentality is there's a kind of. There's like an egoism in it. For example, that pair of dice, right, that you.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not throwing them away.

[Max Kellerman]

You're not throwing them away?

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

When you're gone, they're not going in the Rich Paul Museum. That's fair, you know, like there's. And that's because for most of us, maybe you have a shot at having a museum. For most people who ever live, there ain't gonna be a museum commemorating your life. You know, those things once you're gone, the sentimental value that is attached to them, because it's not in the object, it's in you. It's gone.

[Rich Paul]

You know what I had still in my grandmother's house? In my bedroom in my grandmother's house, I had a picture of. It was like Michael Jordan and the Martian when the Jordan 8s came out, I won this picture at Geaga Lake shooting jump shots, right? I remember this, of course. And I had it in my room still. And I still had on the back of my door. I was two years younger, but we had a point guard at my school, Rashawn Brown. He ended up going to Western Kentucky. He was nasty, right? And when he went off to Western Kentucky, I used to get his clippings out the paper and I had it as motivation on the back of my room door. It was still there, right? Wasn't the same color, but it was still there.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I get. I get it. Like you said, the reason I asked about baseball cards is because there's some sense that our lives are important. And what we're doing has some kind of historical significance. And these objects in our life then are imbued with some kind of historical significance. And what I'm saying is. And I am victim of this way of thinking, right? Like, it victimizes me because. Or I victimize myself because it gets you attached to too much stuff. And that's where the clutter comes from.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. You have to get rid of it.

[Max Kellerman]

And it also keeps you in the past. So I asked about baseball cards. Cause the famous story when I was a kid was the generation. Then the baseball card companies started producing so many cards that we thought were gonna be so valuable. But there are a million of them around. Right. But in, like, the 50s, baseball cards, rare, Right. If you have a mint condition Mickey Mantle, it's worth a billion dollars. You know, all this kind of stuff. So my father and everyone had the same story. Yeah. Their mother was cleaning out their closet after they left the house and threw out their baseball cards. My father, I think, for some reason, had 10 of them left. You know, a Mickey Mantle, a Phil. And I used to look at them like, oh, my God, this is incredible. And think, no, I can't throw away my baseball cards. But most of the stuff that you have. I don't mean you. I mean, one has. Is junk.

[Rich Paul]

No, listen, I think you have to get rid of it. I have to do a better job.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, I see your house, I do more. Your house is. No, like, I watch a TV show or a movie, and I'm like, I wanna live like that. There's no extra papers and stuff around. Everything is where it's supposed to be. These people live free and easy. Or like, when you see. You go to an open house and it's staged, or you watch one of those TV shows on, like, HGTV and it's staged. That's what your place looks like. You live on a movie set. Everything's the way it's supposed to be.

[Rich Paul]

Just because my mind, I can't live.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't want to either. But I'm with people who apparently don't

[Rich Paul]

feel the same way. What bothers me is stuff is cluttered or a pillow is out the wrong, or the throw is not thrown off the back of the couch the right way. All that stuff bothers me. So.

[Max Kellerman]

But this is like, I'll go to throw out an old onesie that my onesie, like my daughter has, right? That my daughter had an old onesie. And I will literally.

[Rich Paul]

Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Exactly. Just calm down. Slow down. So I'm about to go throw it out. I can't do it because I remember when she. That was the one that you.

[Rich Paul]

Well, that's different.

[Max Kellerman]

See what I'm saying?

[Rich Paul]

That's your daughter.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, it is, but. So what am I gonna do with. I'm gonna put it somewhere in storage, and when I die, no one's gonna care about it, and they're gonna throw it out. So I'm just garbage.

[Rich Paul]

We're going to pay some bills. You could buy more things to. Then decide if you want to hoard it or not.

[Max Kellerman]

Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.

[Rich Paul]

Game [e-mail]. can we go through the mail list today?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. Let's try to figure that out.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich, there are no games right now, right? Like, it's a dead spot.

[Rich Paul]

And Robert Duvall passed away. Yeah, that's Tom Hagen.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And Jesse Jackson.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But no, there's no games.

[Max Kellerman]

What a way to start the show. You got to save that for later.

[Rich Paul]

You can't.

[Max Kellerman]

Robert Duvall.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just saying. I was just thinking about. I was watching Tom Hagen. Well, I was watching Godfather 1 this morning before I came in, and so I was thinking about. Yeah. He plays.

[Max Kellerman]

What's his name? To Kill a Mockingbird and has one scene at the end where he doesn't say anything. And it's like the most memorable part of a movie of a classic.

[Rich Paul]

The colors was incredible.

[Max Kellerman]

He was great. All time great. No question. So. But the point is, there's a dead spot in the sports calendar. Guess whose name pops up. Carmelo's talking him and David Griffin's talking him. LeBron James. Because your guy is, you know, look, Carmelo's quote was, the league doesn't move without LeBron. And it highlights his point that to start this show, I'm talking about Carmelo talking about him. I'm talking about David Griffin, talking about he's been the face of the league for decades now. Decades.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, he has. I mean, you know, like Carmelo's point. And coming from Carmelo, I think not Even just about LeBron, but just about more players. I think we need more of that. That's a player who has been. Who's a Hall of Famer, and instead of him trying to get a hot take by saying something negative.

[Max Kellerman]

Carmelo, you mean?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, to get to clickbait. He's being honest.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, it's a big thing for him to say, too because out of in that draft, yes, clearly LeBron was the best player. But if there was someone that people would say, hey, hey, hold on. Are we sure LeBron's going to be the best? Yeah, it was Carmelo. He jumped. I saw Carmelo play early on that season. Syracuse. I caught a Syracuse game. And I remember a lot of people at the time talking about T.J. ford, right? Watch T.J. ford. I watched Carmelo. After watching Carmelo, I took Syracuse to win the whole thing that year. I mean, that was so good.

[Rich Paul]

Unfair to TJ Ford. I mean, Carmelo's like. Like six, eight little guys.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm just saying back then, this is what people were saying. But you took one look at Carmelo and then he had a crew in Syracuse. Of course they were going to win.

[Rich Paul]

Max. You know what's so cool about that? Well, you just brought something to my attention. We'll get to your point. I worked the Michael Jordan camp. I think I said this to you before, with Carmelo and T.J. ford and Kurt Heinrich and Chris Thomas from Notre Dame. All of us, all Americans. Us all Americans, worked the camp. It was great. But, yeah, no, I think, look, it takes a lot to be the face of the NBA. It really does. And I think that when you look at it and you say it's just stats, it is much more than stats. It is much more than stats.

[Max Kellerman]

What else is it?

[Rich Paul]

It's a responsibility that you have to. That you have to embrace. It is you understanding the partnership, Right. You understanding that you have to be present and you have to show up and you have to conduct yourself a certain way. And I remember having a conversation and, you know, for lj, when I look back on it, we've asked him to be on every day.

[Max Kellerman]

It's incredible.

[Rich Paul]

For the last 24 years, it's incredible. Like, we really have. And when I look at the league today, talent wise, yeah. There's a number of guys that you can say could probably be the face of the NBA at some point. I think it's going to be a collective of players, just like it was when Michael left in 1998. It was a collective.

[Max Kellerman]

If there was one, it was Kobe. If you had to choose one.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Max Kellerman]

Who do you think it was? There's Kobe, there's Shaq.

[Rich Paul]

I don't think it was. I don't think it was one person. I think it was a collective. I think you had Iverson. I think you had Vince. I think you had T. Mac. I think you Had Kobe and Shaq. I think there were storylines with all of them as a collective.

[Max Kellerman]

I agree with that. But I think Kobe emerged after several years as. But you're right, it wasn't the same as Jordan or LeBron. He wasn't all by himself.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but that's what the face of the league actually is, you know, And I think there was spotlight due to the fact that Kobe and Shaq won three straight championships. Right. So of course that's gonna get in their spotlight. Allen Iverson took a team that probably should have never been there to the finals and actually won a game on the road. But what he brought was something different. He created this. I'm gonna be myself. I'm gonna be truly authentic. And he performed so he didn't have to give in to becoming somebody that the league wanted him to be. He can be him. And no one could say anything because he performed. Right. And so it was a collective. Today in under, like, I had a front row seat in understanding what it was like to be the face of the league.

[Max Kellerman]

And.

[Rich Paul]

And when you think about all the flack now, oh, you have to do the dunk contest. Why? Because you're the marquee guy. If you choose not to, then that's a big issue. But no one else had that responsibility.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, hold on. There's a lot there, Rich. In the first place, LeBron was not only the face of the league, but he did it in the social media era. He was the first one to do it in the social media era. Yes, the fact. And I think he stepped in it a couple of times, but to only step in it a couple of times in 24 years through the social media era, I don't know if anyone else could have done it as well as him.

[Rich Paul]

And the reason why I say 24 years is because his senior year, he was covered.

[Max Kellerman]

No question. LeBron was the biggest story in basketball as a senior in high school. I remember Bob Ryan, who was on the great writer out of Boston, newspaper writer who was on around the Horn at the time, because we had panelists, different newspapers all around the country, different time zones, and I was the host of the show. And Bob Ryan, on principle, would not watch LeBron and talk about him on TV because he felt it was unfair to a teenager to put him under that kind of spotlight. And I told him at the time, I understand it's a principled stance. And what. I remember saying this. But, Bob, you are missing out, because sometimes you can tell about someone, sometimes it's ridiculous, but sometimes you can watch someone play a game and understand something about their personality that says such good things. Like if you watch Magic Johnson play basketball, you would have a hard time believing that you wouldn't like Magic Johnson as a person, right? Yeah, you'd have a hard time. You watch Larry Bird or Michael Jordan play basketball. You mean you might be like, I don't know if that's going to be the nicest guy. When you watched LeBron play as a high school senior, the maturity, the intelligence, the personality, the obvious desire to elevate the people around him, it was so obvious. I told Bob Ryan at the time, you're missing it. You should, you would love this guy.

[Rich Paul]

I think another thing that matters when you talk about being the face of the league is there's a difference between popularity and demand, right?

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

When you do, when you are a signature guy, right. And in this case he was going into the league and obviously everybody knew he was probably getting a signature shoe. How fast you get that shoe is not determined only by your popularity, but also by your demand. You have to remember going from a high school gym to having to play at the University of Akron to playing at. At this time, there was more people in the stands for his high school game against Warrensville Heights, Ohio, Warrensville, the Warrensville Tigers, than it was for the Cavaliers in that series in that season.

[Max Kellerman]

If you didn't live through it, it's hard to explain what a big deal LeBron James was as a high school senior.

[Rich Paul]

So when Nike sees that, they're saying, wait a minute, it's 20,000 people are coming to see this kid consistently on the night. We're not waiting till year three to do a signature shoe. We gotta get ready for year one.

[Max Kellerman]

Smart.

[Rich Paul]

We have to be ready for year one. So that demand, right? Then you have to have the proper team. Because here's what people don't understand. And this is not self serving or any bias to me and our team, because we, I mean, I could sit here for three days to talk about the things that we had to go through and the people and all the things that helped, right? But the most important thing is it was him LeBron identified, who actually had value. Not because they were close to him, not because he knew him for a long time or they coached him or they trained him or any of that. It was about their capabilities. So when you in a room, it makes no sense to be in a room and don't be added value. And when I talk about added value, that's not just blabbering out something that's actually understanding the conversation in the room and having a capability to add value to that strategy. Either it's ideation or it's execution. Right? And he got that right away. Picking the right brand partners. We knew right away we cannot do any and everything just for money. Right? We cannot do that. We knew that right away. People forget, like, he gave money back to certain things.

[Max Kellerman]

And so by the way, Muhammad Ali, the biggest athlete in the world, made that mistake. He didn't have the right people advising him. He put his name on everything, and his brand was not like a pristine brand as a result, even though he was more famous than Michael Jordan and all these guys, Michael Jordan did it the right way. LeBron James that they. Early on, the guys curated the, the brand very well.

[Rich Paul]

Early on, that mattered a lot. You know, once you, once you solidify, you get late in your career, obviously you can do whatever you want at that point, but that was important. And then this, this understanding of I have to win. See, people don't understand like the, the, the. The pressures within all of I have to win. And not only do I have to win, I have to win by a certain time.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

What's that time within seven years because of mj?

[Rich Paul]

I think it's because of a number of things, because of strategy, right.

[Max Kellerman]

Rookie deals. If you re sign go seven years

[Rich Paul]

and you want to be able to build things out, you're trying to build a. You're trying to build a brand that has longevity and has brand positioning stability. There, obviously you're gonna always be compared to who does done what before you.

[Max Kellerman]

By seven years, if you came to the league, you're 18, you're 25, you're

[Rich Paul]

in prime, you're in your prime now. You have that Runway to actually build a business. So when I look at the league today and, and. And again, we have an abundance of. Of young talent is incredible. There's. There's names that could possibly be.

[Max Kellerman]

Before we get there, before we get there, I want to talk about who's the next face of the league. For sure. I want to go back to something you said because this does relate to MJ and LeBron, which is always a hot topic. The feeling that I get, and I'm sure that this goes for a lot of people, and this is why LeBron gets blowback for not doing the dunk contest ever. Now before I say that, I know people are listening to me. Praise LeBron. And praise LeBron. I'm sitting next to you and they're like, this is an inside clutch job. If you are dumb enough to think that when discussing LeBron James career, there shouldn't be effusive praise, I don't know what to tell you. Like, obviously if you're discussing LeBron, most of what you're gonna say is effusive. Like you're gonna praise him because he deserves it, cuz that's how great he was. But that doesn't mean, cuz I'm sitting here with you, I'm just gonna say everything pro, LeBron and blah blah, blah.

[Rich Paul]

No, and we wasn't perfect. We didn't do everything right.

[Max Kellerman]

So this is where I think, having that said, I don't think not doing a dunk contest counts for or against your greatness as a basketball player. What does that have to do with anything?

[Rich Paul]

Nothing.

[Max Kellerman]

However, I'll tell you why I think there's backlash to it for LeBron.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

It seems to me, I would guess, and you and I have never discussed this privately, even that you and Mav and some other people probably in a room with LeBron, discussing the pros and cons and weighing them of doing the dunk contest. And it would be my guess that the reason not to do it is because you're chasing Jordan, who you want to eventually overcome as the goat. He set the standard and the standard is so hard to chase because he won the dunk contest. So there's a lot of downside to entering if you're LeBron James and you don't win it. And there's. The upside is simply you just matched it. And I would imagine that could be when I could picture the room when you guys talking and being like, if there's any reason not to do it, like, well, I'm feeling this way or I could use the rest, yet let's skip it. I don't see the upside. Did that take place? And do you understand why people feel that LeBron's chase of goat status was manicured a certain way?

[Rich Paul]

The answer to that is no. 50. 50. What did take place is yes. Me, Brian, Mav, Randy, we always talked about everything. And that's the thing about lj. He's never gonna do something just for doing it. He's going to think about it, he's gonna talk it through, right? But it had nothing to do with Michael. He actually wanted to do it. And by the way, when you think about at that point, he had Coke, he had the biggest brands, he had Nike, he had Coke, et cetera, There is a benefit to doing it right. Right. Just doing. Not even winning it. I'm saying just to do it. Right. Maverick was great in his leadership in terms of like, okay, we're going to think strategically about certain things. Just forget about winning just to do it. I know what was on the other side just to be involved. But that wasn't the case. He genuinely, if you go back and he would say it, he was just like, man, you know, at first he was excited about doing it. He had an ankle injury one time, something else happened another time. And so after that, I think it started to be like. And I think he did that in the interview. It's like, man, honestly, I'm just more of an in game guy. I'm more of an in game.

[Max Kellerman]

It almost reminds me of Eddie Murphy not doing standup. Remember after he did Raw and Delirious and then. No, what was Raw? The second one, it was delirious and Raw. Cause Delirious, they called two different things. I forgot. One on the tape, one on tv. But after Raw, everyone's been waiting for Eddie's standup. And at a certain point, so many years had passed that I imagine for Eddie Murphy there's enormous pressure, especially if you're out of practice. Because it's like, everyone's been waiting for this. It has to be the best thing ever. Is there any of that with. That's what it sounds like to me. Like a number of years pass. He hasn't done it. He hasn't done it. There's all this anticipation. And at that point, if you enter the dunk contest, boy, you better show out. Or it's like, come on.

[Rich Paul]

I think again, there's a demand that says, you are the face of the league. The demand for his presence in things like the dunk contest exuded just that. I mean, when you talk about the league, when you talk about brand sponsors, when you talk about fans, viewership, if he joins the dunk contest, it's pandemonium. And by the way, there's a responsibility. So he did feel that responsibility to do it at one time. I know that for a fact. But then at a certain point, you know, you realize and you're just like, you know what? This is probably not gonna be something that I actually do.

[Max Kellerman]

That's too bad.

[Rich Paul]

Which is. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Do you consider that a miss in his career or your guys handling of his career?

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no, I don't consider it a miss. I consider it something that would have been exciting for all of us to see at a certain point. Right. But no, it's not A miss because there's no obligation.

[Max Kellerman]

You just said that. There's a. Not obligation by the letter of the law, but the responsibility of.

[Rich Paul]

No, I felt the responsibility of All Star Weekend being that demand an ambassador. And yes, of course. Yeah, yeah, you don't like, you know, because he's always seen himself as a partner in the league. But no, I don't think it's a myth.

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[Max Kellerman]

All that said, there is a lot that goes into being the face of the league. Who. Who has always been an American. Right now we're talking about can Wemby be the next face of the league? So the face of the league also Rich should be the best player in the league. LeBron was the best player in the league. That's why he's the face of the league. It's a blue chip guy who's just better than everyone else. When Kobe emerged from that pack of people we were talking about as maybe he was briefly the face, it's because he had established he was the best. Jordan was the face of the league. He was the best. He replaced the combination of Bird and Magic because they were the best. You know, Moses Malone popped out a little bit and Kareem before them, but it was Bird and Magic. Who is right now, do you think, positioned to be the face of the league, Which I think should include being the best player in the league.

[Rich Paul]

I still think it's a community, but I think that community is led by Anthony Edwards. I think Anthony Edwards is the best player in our league today.

[Max Kellerman]

Did you just say Anthony Edwards is the best player in the NBA?

[Rich Paul]

He's the best player in the NBA. Yes, he is. Okay, who do you say is the best player in the NBA?

[Max Kellerman]

Jokic.

[Rich Paul]

But. And I say Anthony Edwards.

[Max Kellerman]

But. But I can say I wish it is like I want to be. I want to be convinced that it's Aunt Edwards. Because when the best player in the league is a high flying American player, by the way, this is not xenophobia I'm talking about. This is where we live and this is what gets people excited. Usually, you know, a Name that is easy to pronounce. A guy who jumps out the gym. Of course, you need to win championships also in order to be that guy.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Why? It convinced me It's Ant Edwards.

[Rich Paul]

As far as the face versus best

[Max Kellerman]

player, let's start with the best player.

[Rich Paul]

Face the league that. That you have to grow into that. That's something different. But best player. Yes, he is the best player.

[Max Kellerman]

Why? Tell me. Convince me.

[Rich Paul]

Because you can't watch a game on any given night against anybody and look at that game and say, oh, that person is better than Anthony Edwards.

[Max Kellerman]

Even Jokic. No, Jokic is offensively.

[Rich Paul]

No, listen, I love Jokic. No question about it. But no, if you say I'm taking Jokic, I'd say, okay, give me Anthony Edwards.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, I think I got a big advantage.

[Rich Paul]

But you have a big advantage.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I do. I do. And I want to be wrong. Rich, like you're talking to someone who wants to be out debated here. I want you to convince him that's

[Rich Paul]

not about being right or wrong.

[Max Kellerman]

It's what you think.

[Rich Paul]

I'd love it to be versus what I think.

[Max Kellerman]

Why? When you look at how he plays

[Rich Paul]

both sides of the ball, that's true, right? He's the ultimate competitor. I mean, the guy plays through. He reminds me a lot of lj that he play through injuries, that most guys sit three, four games for, for

[Max Kellerman]

a backcourt slash wing, for the two, three style. He's strong. He's not like a frail guy. Yes, he has the he and the girth.

[Rich Paul]

When you talk about, like we saw in the All Star Game, when you talk about not being afraid of the moment, he's never been afraid of the moment. He was a very young player on the USA team. And one thing that people don't give a lot of young players credit for, that you have to give him credit for. Even though he takes jabs at the older guys and things like that, he has a profound respect for those guys. That takes a lot. Right? And knowing that I'm this guy now and he talks about it, but that doesn't take away from him competing and wanting to beat those guys.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what I just realized, Rich? Even though we've already done this, we could do this and just clip this for social media. Stop me. When you get to a player who's better than Ant Edwards.

[Rich Paul]

This is what I'm saying.

[Max Kellerman]

Stop me. Wemby Jokic.

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm just saying. But I'm not saying Jokic. I'm not taking nothing away. You're naming Elite level guys.

[Max Kellerman]

Giannis, or.

[Rich Paul]

You're naming elite level guys, by the way, Tatum. Any of these guys you're naming. You're making my point. If you're watching the game. Yeah. First of all, if you. If you are. The good thing about all those guys you name, especially a guy like Giannis. Right. A guy like Giannis is actually different player than Ant, but the same in terms of all the boxes we're checking on any given night.

[Max Kellerman]

If Giannis shot it better, okay, fine, but.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, you say he need to shoot it better. I take his effort every night.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Oh, listen, what I'm saying is, if Giannis did two things better, he might be the goat, which is if his handles were a little better and if he shot it a little better.

[Rich Paul]

But God can't give you everything.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no.

[Rich Paul]

He made the man 7:19.

[Max Kellerman]

No, what I'm saying is if he did those two things, he would be in the goat conversation, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

But he doesn't. And so he's with the pack.

[Rich Paul]

But here's what I'm saying again, when we're talking about the future, who could be the faith? This is what you just said. And all those names you name, including some others, some I represent. You know, I look at it like it was in the community. If you're taking from 99 to 03. Right. 04. 03 04. We can apply all those guys to the same thing. Tyrese is the new AI. It's just different, you know, different makeup. Obviously. Different. He's a different person, but he's playing for Philly. Kids love them.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know, though, if it's exactly like the last season of the Wire, the last episode. Right. The whole point is the game remains the same. Only the players change. That was the point. Right. The street is the street. This dude replaces this dude. This dude replaces this dude. This is gonna be the next Marlo. This is gonna be the next.

[Rich Paul]

But the game changes, too.

[Max Kellerman]

But I don't know if it works exactly like that in the NBA. The most interesting thing to me about this era and the NBA generally is that we don't simply recast, okay? Because Kobe basically was Michael and not

[Rich Paul]

recasting, but you think it led people

[Max Kellerman]

to believe that it's gonna be like that?

[Rich Paul]

No, it's not. No, it can't be, Max, because the world is also different. Think about it. You and I watched basketball. It was the only thing on. Unless you want to watch mash.

[Max Kellerman]

Right, right. Right.

[Rich Paul]

So now that's.

[Max Kellerman]

A lot of people watch that Last episode of MASH though.

[Rich Paul]

I love mash. But these kids today, they have so many other options. So it's harder to maintain the attention of a viewer. Not only that you and I watched the start of the game from the time, you know how you think we knew the broadcasters and the color analysts, the sideline reporters. Because we never left the tv. We watched the entire game. Kids today, they're watching a highlight or an aggregation.

[Max Kellerman]

That's a great point. If you have one of these and you have everything there, the whole world, the idea that you're going to watch the second quarter of a first half NBA game, why would you?

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

If you're a kid, why would you?

[Rich Paul]

It's harder today now, which is why you have to even put more of an emphasis if you're one of these guys. Wemby has an incredible team. If you pay attention to what's going on with Wemby, he does nothing that is not authentic to him.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Wemby. Wemby might be the first guy who as a big, can genuinely be the face of the league.

[Rich Paul]

And that's very hard to do two

[Max Kellerman]

things as a foreign born player and as a big. Cause bigs traditionally are not seen. Kids can't relate to them the way they can relate to a smaller player.

[Rich Paul]

You're saying Wemby will have popularity and demand. Yes, which is true. So now. Which is why now is even more of a reason why when you sit in these meetings, the strategy and the execution is tenfold. Because you're fighting, you're really fighting the battle of Bunker Hill. This is a lot different. This is not like it used to be when you made a record. And now we can go to every radio station and pay for him to play it and he becomes a hit.

[Max Kellerman]

Is this an Aunt Edwards argument that one of the things that helps him in terms of being the face of the league is if he can in fact, if he proves he in fact is the best player or at least the best player on a championship team, his style of play. Lenses.

[Rich Paul]

Style of play definitely matters. Style of play matters. Physique matters. You know, silhouette. The one thing we loved about MJ was his silhouette when he jumped in the air. Just his body type, how he was configured. He didn't.

[Max Kellerman]

The way he jumped through the air looked different.

[Rich Paul]

He had the perfect silhouette. Right. Six. Six. However much he weighed.

[Max Kellerman]

Whether it was 15. Yeah. And also maybe even less. And also the way he could shoot it on the way down when he jumped up made his hang time seem longer. Because other Guys, like, he jumps up. He had a great vertical, but then a lot of times he would shoot on the way down in a way that was like, slender. How long is he gonna.

[Rich Paul]

So, yes, I think all those things matter, but what matters most is you have to win. Winning matters. And when I say win, like, you don't have to necessarily win it all, but you have to be. I think they do okay at least once, but you have to be in a position to win consistently. Like people. Like, from 2010 to 2018, LeBron went to the Finals every single year from 2010 to 2018.

[Max Kellerman]

You just landed on the next topic, which is related. David Griffin saying that LeBron James had it easy in the East. I want to give you my opinion.

[Rich Paul]

I can't believe he said that.

[Max Kellerman]

I want to give you. Why can't you believe that?

[Rich Paul]

I mean, he was a general manager of the Cavaliers.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, but it's true. I mean, he did well.

[Rich Paul]

I would say. No, finish your point.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, so let me take my take, and then you. This is my feeling about him, about David Griffin saying they had it easy in the East. Clearly, the east was easier than the West. There's no denying that. Clearly, that helped LeBron James get to a bunch of Finals. Obviously. However, we have to look at the details, right? The devil's in the details. He won the championship with Miami twice. Now, people can say, yeah, but if you have to run the gauntlet in the west, maybe a Styles matchup, yeah, okay, but he beat the best team that came out of the west twice in Miami. I think it's difficult to say he benefited from being in the East. Whether or not he did in some way, he beat the best team out of the West. That's one twice. Then in Cleveland, he clearly was going to beat the Golden State Warriors. And then his second and third best players both got hurt. Missed basically the whole series, and they lost to the Warriors. On a team that was clearly better than the warriors, that's three seasons. And then in 16, he beat the Warriors. So, yes, David Griffin's right. In Cleveland, he had a free pass to the. To the Finals more than a team in the west did. But in at least four of those seasons, tough to make that argument as a way of kind of taking credit away from LeBron.

[Rich Paul]

Again, I'm surprised DG said that. David Griffin said that. But let's see. Budenhoser, Tom Thibodeau, Rick Carlisle. I think Mike Woodson was in New York. I forget who was in Detroit in what years. It was a Couple different teams. The years he was in the East, I mean, it's a couple different teams.

[Max Kellerman]

But Carlisle. No, Larry Brown.

[Rich Paul]

Larry Brown was there. I say all that to say those coaches would say to him, duh, no shit. Because you had the guy. So if you give me the guy, I would probably say it was easy too. But if you ask DeMar DeRozan and Kyle Lowry. If you ask Derrick Rose. Derrick Rose and Joe Kim. Noah. If you ask Korver Teague, Joe Johnson and Al Horford.

[Max Kellerman]

The Hawks that got swept.

[Rich Paul]

Right?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, Michael had the Bobcats and then they became the Hornets again. I think it was Eddie Jordan and I forgot who end up coaching. Oh, Scott skiles was in D.C. when he had the team with John and Bradley. Bill, just ask those guys. I'm not here.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm saying it was easier. Those guys, but it was an easier. I mean, and not just because of LeBron. In other words, I'm not. I'm not trying to diminish LeBron, but if you looked at the Western Conference.

[Rich Paul]

But that's always been basically.

[Max Kellerman]

David, that's the point.

[Rich Paul]

It's always been the case.

[Max Kellerman]

It's always been.

[Rich Paul]

You can always make the argument that

[Max Kellerman]

why is the West?

[Rich Paul]

Because the style of play paced back in the day, the west would be 141 to 137, but that should make it. The east would be like 72 to 76, but that should make it better

[Max Kellerman]

for the east in the playoffs because it turns into more of a half court game.

[Rich Paul]

Well, here's. In the playoffs, it does turn into a more of a half court game, which is why a lot of times we've seen the run that the Bulls made right in the 2000s outside of San Antonio, winning in what, 2000. And then I think the Lakers won 01.02,03. And then the Pistons won'04.

[Max Kellerman]

No, they. Oh, you mean the West. They won the west in 0123.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, then the Pistons won 04.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, no, no, they won the whole thing, you're saying.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, and then The spurs won in 05. And then 06 was the Heat. 07 was the spurs again, 08 was the Celtics. 9 and 10 was the Lakers, and

[Max Kellerman]

then it was the 11 was the Mavs.

[Rich Paul]

11. Mavs and Heat. Heat. Spurs.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

Warriors. Cavs. Warriors. Warriors. Warriors. You get what I'm saying?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. If you take. Well, what that tells me is you take LeBron out of the east and they would never win. But it does also highlight the fact that the east is an Easier. Look, even in Jordan's day, the Knicks were the stumbling block. The Knicks took them seven games. No one in the west ever took them seven games. But they had one team. But the west was deeper.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, of course. But this also goes to the point when you see these guys and these older guys say, oh, well, LeBron tried to stack a team. Well, the guy saying that, look at the teams that you were on. Or LeBron wanted the easy way out. Well, if you know that the east is easier, then why'd you go west?

[Max Kellerman]

Why did LeBron go west?

[Rich Paul]

That's what I'm saying.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, he didn't go west until he was much older.

[Rich Paul]

Still. Still, if you're chasing and he won a championship, if you're chasing the ring, if you're chasing this ghost, whatever you want to call it, why'd you go to the harder conference to do so? Not only a harder conference. It's not like you went to a stacked situation at all either. So anyway, the point I'm making is

[Max Kellerman]

he did not go to a stacked situation.

[Rich Paul]

It's always, it has always been that way. Right. And so I don't know. And the bigger thing is, I think I saw Shannon Sharp say this. It's like the benefactors, all these guys benefited from having him on their team.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, of course. I mean, I think, No, I think, I think the biggest thing about LeBron, more than any of that stuff, is the warriors were a 73 win team. I thought the Thunder may have been the best team in 16 compared to the. They, they didn't prove it.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, the Thunder was really good.

[Max Kellerman]

But as Marcellus Wiley used to say, getting off the bus, if you were just looking at the athletes getting off

[Rich Paul]

the bus, that Thunder team was incredible. No, that, that, that team was incredible.

[Max Kellerman]

But my point is that the warriors couldn't get past LeBron. KD couldn't get past the Warriors. It wasn't until KD, one of the best players ever. If you took greatness out of it and leadership, this and that, and just said skill set, KD is like the most efficient scorer, incredible defender, eventually a good passer every seven feet tall. The whole thing, handles every shot. Crazy. That dude in his prime joins the 73 win warriors. To me, that's the ultimate compliment to LeBron, which is like, that's what it takes to get past that guy.

[Rich Paul]

And, and look, giving David Griffin the benefit of doubt, because I know David, I know him well. I, I, I've worked with him a lot. You know, he's not lying. Yeah, no, He's. I don't know. He said it was. I don't know if he's saying that to try to dilute any. I. I think people automatically place it like he's trying to dilute something from LJ Perspective. I don't know if he's saying that.

[Max Kellerman]

He's just like, sometimes describing reality will either seem to argue for or against someone, but you still gotta describe reality.

[Rich Paul]

But he's saying it's easier. He actually said it's easier than it is today. It was easier for them than the east is today. Now, I don't know if I agree with that, because those are some good. I mean, those are some good Easter.

[Max Kellerman]

This is what I would say that Indiana Pacers think. This actually argues to your point. Because of the presence of LeBron James in the conference, the east was lopsided. If you took LeBron James out of the conference, the east would have been more balanced, and the east is more balanced now in terms of the actual strength of each team. I think the. Maybe not this year. This year, the east is just kind of more balanced. But if you look at the last several years, Giannis on the Bucks, the Knicks got much stronger. The Pacers got much stronger.

[Rich Paul]

The Knicks had Carmelo Anthony and Stoudemire.

[Max Kellerman]

They weren't. That wasn't a very good team. It was okay. They were just. Okay. They were good. They were a nice playoff team. But it wasn't like, hey, they can. No one thought the Knicks could win

[Rich Paul]

the championship because of what.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, that's a good point. But also. But also because. But also because they didn't. Just didn't look.

[Rich Paul]

No, it's not. No, no.

[Max Kellerman]

If they would have gotten out of the east, no one would have picked them against the West.

[Rich Paul]

That has nothing to do with it. You're saying this and the point that he's making.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, if Detroit got out of the east this year, a lot of people pick them. I'll not pick him against the West. Milwaukee got out of the east to beat the West.

[Rich Paul]

Does the current Detroit team now beat that Cavaliers team? No, no, this is my point.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, well, listen, you're right. LeBron. LeBron. And also LeBron had Kyrie and Kevin Love and the right. JR It's a very good team. And as I said, they beat the West.

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm not even. And I don't even want to make this so much about LeBron. I'm just talking about LeBron's teams, the talent.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, I want to get to something now. Mark Cuban Had a contrarian take. Okay. He said that the league doesn't really have a tanking problem. They misunderstand their business if they think they do. The business is the fan experience. And the fan experience is like, it's about ticket prices and all that stuff, but it's also about hope. The fans need to have hope. And I agree with Mark Cuban here, and I want to tell you why. This is a five minute max. Okay. You ready for this?

[Rich Paul]

Well, let me see.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, put it on. I gotta pack a lot of stuff into here.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, go ahead.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. As a Giants fan, a New York football Giants fan, I'm furious right now. As a New York football Giants fan, I'm furious right now. They look, I know football is not basketball. It's harder to tank in football because it's a full contact sport. You don't really play football. Football is more like boxing than basketball. You know, like you. It's. You kind of play it. But it's also a dangerous full contact sport. Hard to tank if you're in the NFL. And as a Giants fan, I appreciate Mara's kind of ethos where on the Giants we don't tank no matter what. And they've won four Super Bowls with that kind of thinking. I get it. So that's part of their culture. But still, as a Giants fan, I'm furious because the Giants are picking fifth in this draft. They have a lot of good pieces in place on this team. But if they were picking first in this draft, since they don't need a quarterback, they could trade out and have multiple firsts and multiple other picks and fill out their whole roster and be a juggernaut. So as a Giants fan, I would rather my team be bad in the short run to have the chance to be incredible in the long run. Okay, Now I put myself in a Utah Jazz fan's shoes. Rich. If I'm a Utah Jazz fan, this is the situation they're in. Okay, The Utah Jazz just traded for Triple J and put him next to Laurie Marketing and Triple J for all the things he doesn't do well, like rebound and stay out of foul trouble is a name.

[Rich Paul]

The things he does do well.

[Max Kellerman]

Here are the things he does well. And I know 50 million is a lot for this, but still, it's rare. Show me a guy who can legitimately defend the rim and legitimately defend out in space. That's already. If you have that piece, you have

[Rich Paul]

a lot at that position.

[Max Kellerman]

At that position, but then also hit the three space the floor.

[Rich Paul]

Okay?

[Max Kellerman]

So don't focus on what he doesn't do, though. That's what I think the big three things are for Triple J.

[Rich Paul]

What about playmaker?

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, for sure he has an iq. Okay, but people can dispute that. Whatever. But what you can.

[Rich Paul]

No, they cannot.

[Max Kellerman]

What you cannot dispute is rim protection, defense on the floor and three point shot. You can look that stuff up. Okay. You want to pair marketing with. And you have to pay him a lot of money. You're cap strapped by bringing in a guy like that. So you believe in him.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. You're not finding it in the free agency anyway.

[Max Kellerman]

You believe in him and his future with Lauri Markkanen, who's also a very nice piece. And you're sitting in a draft that has potential.

[Rich Paul]

They still have Nurkic.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. You're sitting in a draft that has potential franchise players in it. And you have a top eight protected pick. And the way you guarantee, the way the rules are, we don't have to go through them all. The way you guarantee that pick is by finishing with one of the worst four records in the league. And you will not make the playoffs this year. Why would you possibly win any games? If I'm a Jazz fan, every game they win, I feel like I want to sue them for negligence. Are you joking? Of course you want to lose.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, but, but, but before you say that, you're right.

[Max Kellerman]

This doesn't count on my time because

[Rich Paul]

I agree with you. You have to make sure the fan is educated from that way. You can't just guess that. You have to make sure of that. And they are. But go ahead, Go ahead. Go ahead.

[Max Kellerman]

Any basketball, of course, if you're. I'm speaking for myself. If I'm a Utah Jazz fan and they win a game, I'm like, what are you doing? Do you understand we could potentially lose?

[Rich Paul]

The pick goes back to all we need to do position.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes. All we need to do to ensure that we have one of the eight picks in the draft. And by the way, you're much more likely to pick 5, 6, 4 than you are 7 or 8 if you finish with one of the top.

[Rich Paul]

It don't matter where they pick records

[Max Kellerman]

in league bottom four records because they

[Rich Paul]

had the other pieces. Right?

[Max Kellerman]

Right. So this is what the league is saying. The league is basically saying if you don't want the Jazz to tank that your 3%, you have a 1/30 stake in our syndicate. The league is a syndicate of 30 different businesses. Your 1-30th stake in our business, in our syndicate, you should value more than your hundred percent stake in your own business. It is irrational to demand that a business put their 3% plus stake in a syndicate over their hundred percent self interested business. Now I don't understand. Now I understand. I've heard that and I've read that and I've seen it online. There's some thought out there that gamblers and gambling sites put pressure on the league to avoid tanking because it affects the gambling, the integrity. You want to protect the integrity of the game so people can make place bets. To that I would say that is irrational. Gamblers come to the table with public and private knowledge, right? And they use all of that to place their bet. If you know a team is tanking, that makes it easier to place your bet. And furthermore that should be factored into the line.

[Rich Paul]

Now quickly cause your time is up. So go ahead.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, but you interrupted a couple times

[Rich Paul]

so I'm gonna go a little over.

[Max Kellerman]

So quickly. I will say that the reason it's so hard, and I've said this before on the show, the reason it's so hard to beat the line in Vegas is not because of some magical force or people are shaving points or stuff. It is that the line represents the odds makers set the line guessing not on what's actually gonna happen, but on what the public believes is gonna happen. Cuz they want equal action on both sides of the line. And then how good the odds maker is is reflected by the betting action. If they're wrong, if they haven't guessed the public's temperature right, the public will bet the line in a certain way that will move it. Okay, I can see the argument, I can see the argument that gaming websites and stuff like that might say, hey guys, if the public knows that a certain team is tanking, we have to set the line so ridiculous, ridiculously in favor of them, of the other team winning that if the Jazz happens to win, it could be ruinous for us. Right, I understand that logic. Maybe that puts a little pressure. But that is not a good enough argument to enforce to insist that the Jazz not act in their immediate self interest. Which as a fan would drive me crazy if I'm a Jazz fan, they win a single game, I'm going nuts. You have one job. If you're in the job in the J on the Jazz, one job. Make sure no matter what you finish with one of the worst four records in the league.

[Rich Paul]

I have. I, I agree.

[Max Kellerman]

I rest my case.

[Rich Paul]

No, I agree with you and I. That's why I always say it's Positioning. So. And, and speaking of the positioning, this is a very good draft.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

You know, when you look at college basketball today, which you said you're going to start watching, I need you to start watching.

[Max Kellerman]

I was caught out.

[Rich Paul]

Highlights.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Who'd you like on Arizona?

[Max Kellerman]

That guard.

[Rich Paul]

Burries.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that. He's a little guard. Good guard.

[Rich Paul]

Not little. I'm talking about Bradley.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, Bradley. Yeah, Bradley.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I was going to say Burry's not.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, I thought you said Bradley. I'm sorry.

[Rich Paul]

Burry's and Bradley are the guards. Burries is like six five. He's really good. But there are some other players you got. Actually, I'm going.

[Max Kellerman]

We said yes. You have to get into this right now.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, I'm saying actually there's a game tonight.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Where Keegan Wagler from Illinois is playing against usc, who has Elijah Arenas. Both of those kids are NBA players. Wagler is great. Illinois always does this. Like last year it was Will Riley. This year is Keegan Wagler. Like he's just ascended to this place. Plays with great pace, by the way.

[Max Kellerman]

I know this is like size. We don't have a ton more time right now. Can we call this Get Rich Quick? Can we Get Rich Quick here? Let's get Rich Quick. Okay, so take me through the big names.

[Rich Paul]

Here's some. Well, the big names are Caleb Wilson and who's hurt? Caleb Wilson, Darren Peterson and AJ is probably 1A, 1B, 1C of you can go either way, right?

[Max Kellerman]

So those are the names.

[Rich Paul]

Everyone knows you can go either way. Boozer's a close. Close is right there too.

[Max Kellerman]

Who else though?

[Rich Paul]

Then you get into your guards. You have, you have, you have Flemings, you have Acuff. Who's Acuff Is. I mean, arguably, there's no weakness there. I mean, he does it all.

[Max Kellerman]

That's that six five.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no, he's from Arkansas. He's a smaller guard. He's like six six, one, six two. But, but, oh, wait.

[Max Kellerman]

And, but.

[Rich Paul]

Developed. Yeah, developed.

[Max Kellerman]

But then you go into so many games right now.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but then you, you have him. You have Mikel Brown, who, who went out for 4M.

[Max Kellerman]

Brown is the, he's the 6 5, kind of like combo guard. Right.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know if he's 65. No, I don't think he's 65.

[Max Kellerman]

I think Mikhail Brown looks bigger to me than Bradley. For someone like that, he looks longer.

[Rich Paul]

Maybe didn't.

[Max Kellerman]

And, and, but, but he doesn't shoot it real well, does he?

[Rich Paul]

Yes, he does. He just went crazy, had 45. But nevertheless, I'll get you.

[Max Kellerman]

No, he scores well. He shoots it well.

[Rich Paul]

He can shoot it well. Yes. But then there's Christian Anderson out of Texas Tech, who really shoots it well. His shot making is going to translate. He's actually bigger than what people think. He's 6 3. He'll be a guy that, you know, he might go in the back half a lot. Somewhere between the back half to, like, 22. Right. But you're gonna get a. He's one of those guys that when you do a redraft, you can be like, oh, that guy.

[Max Kellerman]

Gotcha.

[Rich Paul]

You know, he made it. And then there's the bigs, like Big Patrick from Ngangba, from Duke. And when you talk about bigs, like jjj, the thing when you are big and you're trying to make it in the NBA, these things are so important. First, hands. You want to have good hands, for sure. Secondly, the art of screen setting, understanding the angles to set screens. And then once you do that, having the iq. So now when you come out of that screen or you go into a dribble handoff, you understand? Okay. If the defense is cheating this time, I may fake the dribble handoff. Go. And then make that low man collapse. Now, I hit my guy in the corner, who's probably going to be Isaiah Evans, who's shooting the ball very well from a Duke perspective.

[Max Kellerman]

Now, that's super interesting, Rich. You're saying, like, because when I was saying, look, the things I look for in a big. That's why you wanted to talk about maybe IQ with Triple J is I look for, can you defend the rim? Can you defend out in space? Can you shoot the three? But you're saying before you even get to that stuff, you want to see the basketball IQ in terms of screen setting.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Because this is why you like Jokic as the best player. What makes Jokic the best player for you is it's not him putting up 30. It's his understanding of the game and his ability to think quick. See, when I look at all these guys, I don't care about their stats, right? Like, when I look at an A.J. the first thing I would say to A.J. is, A.J. you have to get off the ball now. Boom, boom, boom. Don't hold it. Because you're not gonna get that opportunity in the NBA, right? So a guy like Big Pat, it's just like what I see and what I know is exactly that. Now, the other thing that really takes it over the top, run the floor. This is where Tristan was incredible at because he didn't have the other intangibles, the size and so on and so forth. But he's a workhorse. His motor was through the roof.

[Max Kellerman]

That's a great point. You're watching it on tv, you're not waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting for him to show up.

[Rich Paul]

So what that does is like you said, having a big. That you don't have to be able to stop nobody but that can switch the screen and make it tough on a guy. Like if you look at Kevin Love's effort in that game seven against Stephen, he couldn't stop Steph, but just to. He put everything he could to make it tough on him. That matters. Right.

[Max Kellerman]

And so a willing defender.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. And then the kid Steph is.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, this is. I always bring it up with Steph. Steph is not a good defender, but you can win championships with Steph because he is a willing defender. So you can have a team defense with Steph on the floor because he will play defense.

[Rich Paul]

And he came back bigger and stronger knowing that, hey, they're going to put me in every ball screen. That's fine. I'm going to be able to take that brunt. Isaiah Harwell is the last one from Houston. He doesn't play much, but when he does play, when you watch, he's your prototypical three and D guy and he's, he's the new version of Josh Hart. Okay, Right. He's going to.

[Max Kellerman]

And, and if, if he more three than Hart.

[Rich Paul]

He shoots the three better than Hart.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Yes. And it, but where he has to, where he can improve. And this is where, in your pre draft process, this is where you really focus on, is being able to focus on those quick twitch things. To be able to, you know, laterally,

[Max Kellerman]

your lateral focus on quick twitch. I think of that as either something you have or you don't have.

[Rich Paul]

No, you work out quick twitch muscles. You know, most people think I got to get big and bulky. No, you're doing a lot of band work, opening up the hips and things of that nature.

[Max Kellerman]

Reaction time.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

And that also has something to do with basketball IQ because if you anticipate well, then you start moving before you know, like you know where to go.

[Rich Paul]

You gotta know players tendencies, you gotta know how to play angles. And you have. And he's big, so he's only gonna get bigger. Right. And so now it's just about. I gotta be in the best shape of my life.

[Commercial Narrator]

So.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, so give me the three players out of all those guys. Who are the three players we should really pay attention to? Not the big names. Well, who are the ones? You're like, this dude, this dude and this dude. That's who I'm.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you know, we'll give the big. We'll give Patrick a pass.

[Max Kellerman]

He's a big.

[Rich Paul]

Right? So I would say Wagler, Anderson. Harwell.

[Max Kellerman]

Wagner. Anderson.

[Rich Paul]

Wagler, Anderson.

[Max Kellerman]

Harwell. Sorry, Wagler, right?

[Rich Paul]

Wagner, Illinois.

[Max Kellerman]

Anderson.

[Rich Paul]

Christian Anderson from Texas Tech and Isaiah Harwell. Because the other guys, you know. Right. Caleb Wilson, he's set, right? We know him already.

[Max Kellerman]

Christian Anderson, too.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah, we know him already. You know, aj, you know, Darren, you're gonna hear those other names. But I'm looking forward to it. And I'm also looking forward to,

[Max Kellerman]

I

[Rich Paul]

don't know, the blue. Does it really matter to be a blue blood school anymore? Okay. Cause like, no, I live in la.

[Max Kellerman]

Does it matter? Yeah, but not like it used to.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but I live in la.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

And the fact that UCLA is not a premier basketball school bothers me. Because when you go on that campus and when you go to Pauley Pavilion where they play, it is incredible. From the valet parking to the popcorn, all the amenities. And then you get to the play

[Max Kellerman]

and it's like, by the way, ucla,

[Rich Paul]

every kid should wanna go to. If you go to that campus, every kid should wanna go.

[Max Kellerman]

I used to live in Bel Air. First time I lived in la, I lived in Bel Air, right? And like UCLA is right there. It's right at the bottom of the hill. Literally, if you cross the street, it's in western. The northern part of the campus is Sunset. You cross Sunset, you're in Bel Air.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, but they have to get back. Listen, go and get Earl Watson. Bring Earl Watson. Earl Watson is a hell of a coach. Where you want him on your coaching staff? He should be somewhere. Associate head coach, head coach Earl Watson. Bring back guys like Baron Davis, guys like Matt Barnes, because they have guys who actually live here and who still loves the game of basketball and can be ingratiated because. And again, this is not a. Not to the current coach. I know Mick Cronin was in Cincinnati, et cetera, but there is a world where you have to get younger and on pulse. And I'm telling you, it's not so much as the head coaches that really make a difference. It's your assistants. Your assistants have to be able to relate to kids. Kids, they have to. And that kid has to believe that. You tell me something, it's gonna actually happen because there's been too many times to where you sit on a parent's couch and you say something to them and then they get there, and then now all of a sudden, you're not picking up the parents phone call. You don't have time. You cannot do that.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't mind. When a team like Indiana, a school like Indiana wins the national title in football, that's cool. Right? But I do love it when the traditional powerhouse in a certain sport is good, like UCLA should be great at.

[Rich Paul]

And they did go to the Final Four during COVID but that was during COVID Yep. UCLA should be.

[Max Kellerman]

And also Covid's already, you know, six years.

[Rich Paul]

There's no reason why ucla. None of these kids now chose UCLA as a school. None of them.

[Max Kellerman]

You see what Mick Cronin did.

[Rich Paul]

I know that. That's, That's. I didn't agree with that. I think there's better ways.

[Max Kellerman]

Demonstrably throwing his player out of the game, his own player.

[Rich Paul]

No. And I've been. Listen, I was coached by Frank Novak.

[Max Kellerman]

But we don't know, to be fair, to be fair, we don't know. We don't know what the player did, what was said before the game, what they've been working on, what happened, what lesson he wants to show his team, whatever it is.

[Rich Paul]

And also, they were losing the game, which we understand that, but still, there's a.

[Max Kellerman]

Something about it rubs you the wrong way.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, there's. Jessica, it's because it's one thing to demonstratively say, you know, I get it, I get the Bobby Knight of it all, but today, I just don't know about that. And this is not like the first thing. This is like the third thing.

[Max Kellerman]

And so again, also, if you're Bobby Knight, you have a certain degree of credibility. When he was doing that, he was a big winner.

[Rich Paul]

But you know that going in.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

You know what you're getting going in.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

And it's a tough thing. And again, not putting it all on the player, but also not only defending the player, you know, trying to defend the coach a little bit in terms of. He's in the heat of the battle. I get all of that. But I guarantee if he looks back on that, maybe, hopefully and say, damn, you know what? I probably could have done a better

[Max Kellerman]

job there, especially if it hurts them recruiting and stuff like that.

[Rich Paul]

I've never seen Izzo do that. Nobody gets more fired up than Tom Izzo.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Right. Nobody.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. All right, Rich, I think on that note, on the Tom Izzo note, Friday

[Rich Paul]

can we do some emails?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I think we ran out of time. Okay. Okay, guys, we're doing emails on Friday. Did we promise them today?

[Rich Paul]

No, we didn't promise them today.

[Max Kellerman]

We didn't promise.

[Rich Paul]

We said we were going to look at it.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

But let's do it on Friday.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

I think Friday's a good day.

[Max Kellerman]

Are we promising Friday?

[Rich Paul]

Let's promise Friday.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, we're promising Friday emails on Friday.

[Rich Paul]

Friday's a good day to actually do emails. Yeah, Friday's a good day to actually do emails.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, let's do a little mailbag or whatever they call.

[Rich Paul]

But we did say you're taking the Pistons coming out to East.

[Max Kellerman]

I am.

[Rich Paul]

I also like The Pistons, too. J.B. bickerstaff, my guy, I think he's done a hell of a job there. And more importantly, what they have that you need in the playoffs?

[Max Kellerman]

I'm not only picking the Pistons, I'm rooting for the Pistons. And I'll tell you why, Rich. I'm rooting for the Pistons because, first of all, I like Detroit, but I

[Rich Paul]

can't go that far.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I mean, I like the city of Detroit for a number of reasons,

[Rich Paul]

but I like the city of Detroit, too.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, if they win now, they're ahead of schedule.

[Rich Paul]

They're way ahead of schedule. But this is.

[Max Kellerman]

And there's opportunity for them to be significantly better now.

[Rich Paul]

We're going to overtime. But this is why I say to you all the time, you can't bank on just. If you get the right pieces and you do it the right way. I mean, by the way, Troy Weaver was right. He had a choice. He could have took Jalen Green or Jared Cunningham or Cade Cunningham, but sometimes that wasn't an easy pick. By the way, you had Mobley, you had Cunningham and you had Jalen Green

[Max Kellerman]

and they took the right players. And by the way, but it's Cade Cunningham has to exist in the draft. You can't invent him like Bonchero. One year, it might be Bon Caro.

[Rich Paul]

Fair.

[Max Kellerman]

And you're thinking maybe he could be like Kun. Not quite right.

[Rich Paul]

But then here comes Trajan and he makes the coaching change and they pick JB had just been released by the Cavs. They didn't waste any time. They went and got jb. Yeah, that is that, you know, these type of decisions.

[Max Kellerman]

I would just love to see them, Rich, win one ahead of schedule and then see what Detroit could become as they add pieces going forward. As certain as I like that Detroit

[Rich Paul]

team, I like what they stand for. I like how they come out and compete.

[Max Kellerman]

I love the fact that they're zagging while everyone's zigging. The league is playing this way. Know what? We're going to play that way.

[Rich Paul]

But that's what made the league special. Every team has an identity. Yeah, we have to get back to that. Every team can't run the same plays all the time.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Have an identity, build around your star to build an authenticity within your culture and your playing style.

[Max Kellerman]

The three ball, I know like it is Steph and Dre and Mark Jackson and Steve Kerr and Klay's fault. It is your guys fault. But you ruined the league because they

[Rich Paul]

were not their fault.

[Max Kellerman]

They were at, I'm saying they were at ahead of everyone. Then everyone else imitated. And by the way, you could go back before them. D' Antoni started it. You can go.

[Rich Paul]

D was Dan, Tony was. What was it? 12 seconds or less. Whatever it was.

[Max Kellerman]

But. But it was also a lot of threes and free throws by the way. You can go before that. Rick Patino with the bomb squad on the Knicks. They were the ones who started throwing up threes.

[Rich Paul]

Well, Nolan Richardson had, you know, 40 minutes of hell with the but he pressed the whole game.

[Max Kellerman]

But it's the evolution of the game to this absurd point where there's so many threes shot and everyone wants the most efficient kind of play. But you miss Detroit's like, we're going to, we're going to operate differently.

[Rich Paul]

You can't take threes without the three point shooters, Right?

[Max Kellerman]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

So it's not everyone in the league.

[Max Kellerman]

This league is kind of a three point shooter now.

[Rich Paul]

They grew up Jackson's and Dre's fault. It's our fault for believing that your three point shooters looks like Stephen Clay. Yeah, they don't look like that. And by the way, Damian Lillard winning the three point contest while being injured, that's one of the biggest flexes I ever seen.

[Max Kellerman]

But it's also, I mean now we're into double overtime, but it's also run the clock. It's also like in baseball there was this whole thing sabermetrics and everyone thought it meant oh, on base percentage, which is super important and an undervalued stat once upon a time. So everyone started looking for guys with on base percentage because it was an un. But mainly because Rich, it was an underpriced commodity. So you buy low. Right. Then everyone started looking for on base percentage. You know what got undervalued? Defense.

[Rich Paul]

So now you're missing a golden Glove guy for. For the on base.

[Max Kellerman]

So this is the same thing in basketball. Oh, the three point shooting and the free throw shooting and that style of play. This is undervalued.

[Rich Paul]

Not for Sam Presti, but this is

[Max Kellerman]

what I mean with Detroit's like. So you know what became undervalued? The mid range shot. It's not defended. So we can operate like that. We can operate without just throwing up a million threes and still win. Because now we're operating in parts of the court that are undervalued.

[Rich Paul]

That Bucs team won with the mid range. Khris Middleton was the mid range king in the series.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, he could shoot the three too, though.

[Rich Paul]

He could. But when they set that ball screen with him and Giannis and you have to make a choice, which is probably going to be Giannis. He made you pay.

[Max Kellerman]

You're right. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, double overtime's over. I think that's fine. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Let's go get some donuts.

[Max Kellerman]

Donuts? I can't eat donuts.

[Rich Paul]

Why? You look great, by the way. Really?

[Max Kellerman]

Thank you.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I'm trying. I like the pants with the boots.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, you talking about the outfit. I thought trying to lose.

[Rich Paul]

No, I wasn't giving you that much of a compliment. I'm saying I like the pants with the boots and the jean.

[Max Kellerman]

Thank you.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

And I like that shirt. Well, where would you get that then?

[Rich Paul]

This is a. You know what this is? Oh, yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

It's got to be Ralph.

[Rich Paul]

It's Ralph. Years ago.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, we talk about this dude so much. Can we get sponsored already?

[Rich Paul]

Years ago, man. I mean, you know, it's all good, but this is out the closet. I don't have to, you know, I don't make the money you make, so I had to improvise.

[Max Kellerman]

That's actually a true statement. You don't make the money I make. That is true. That is true. We make different amounts of money. We're out. We're out.