Finals Previews, MVP Criteria, and Popularity vs. Fame

Summary

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Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: Finals Previews, MVP Criteria, and Popularity vs. Fame
Date: February 25, 2026 | The Ringer

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Overview

In this engaging episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dig into urgent basketball topics ahead of the NBA Finals: potential finals matchups, the nuances of MVP voting and player value, and a thoughtful exploration of "popularity" versus "fame" in pro sports. Throughout, Max and Rich showcase their signature rapport, mixing expert insight, playful debate, and entertaining storytelling. The episode finishes with listener questions tackling rookie advice and the elusive NBA GOAT—framed by reflections on Wemby’s spectacular rise.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Staying in Shape & Diet Myths

[00:05–02:18]

• Max marvels at his daughter's ability to "eat whatever she wants" and stay thin despite not playing sports, sparking a conversation about metabolism and youth.
• Both agree: while young, it's ok to indulge—your body burns it off.
• Quote:
  • Max: “When you're young, your body burns it up.” [01:40]
• Segue into everyday pleasures, like having a Coke at dinner.

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Dating, Attraction, and What Really Matters

[02:23–05:36]

• Rich posits women have more leeway in choosing partners regardless of status—a Chris Rock/Beyoncé-Jay-Z analogy surfaces.
• Rich: “Most men probably think the more I have, the more I can get...but when all that smoke clears...she's gonna choose who she wants to choose.” [04:32]
• Max and Rich conclude that character and connection ultimately outweigh status or fame in long-term relationships.

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Finals Previews: Pistons, Thunder, Celtics, Nuggets

[07:19–14:18]

• Deep-dive into likely Finals matchups—Thunder vs. Pistons and Celtics vs. Nuggets.
• Emphasis on playoff seedings, the impact of hard playoff series, and the parity in the league.
• Caution: A healthy 76ers squad as an 8th seed would be dangerous for any top contender.
• Quote:
  • Rich: “The more games you play in the playoffs, the more risk of injury it is. People wear down." [10:00]

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Who’s the Real Best Team? Spurs, Cade’s Lack of Robin, and the Wemby Phenomenon

[13:13–22:47]

• Rich gets “flowers” for predicting Pistons’ vulnerability due to lack of a strong #2 behind Cade.
• Discussion shifts to the Spurs—Max argues regular season dominance means they might be the best team; Rich highlights their “no drama” culture and team-first mentality.
• On Wemby:
  • Max: "I'm not sure that Wemby isn't already the best player in the world. He's in the conversation. He's impossible." [15:50]
  • Rich: "What amazes me more than anything is…that a guy of that size would dive on the floor for a loose ball." [17:46]
• Why aren’t the Spurs perceived as favorites? Max credits market size and branding; Rich says it's because they're "not loud"—they stick to business.

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Popularity vs. Fame: What Makes an Athlete Famous?

[22:48–32:28]

• Max recounts SGA being a Jeopardy clue that stumped contestants—provoking a debate on how “famous” top athletes really are.
• Rich differentiates popularity (well-known within a circle, people like you) versus fame (ubiquitous global recognition à la Michael Jackson/MJ).
• Key Quotes:
  • Rich: "Athletes are extremely popular. But most aren’t famous." [23:38]
  • "Famous means you can show up in a foreign country and people know who you are." [25:37]
• Practical advice for athletes: Don’t overspend as if you’re globally famous, know the difference to save money.
• Memorable moment: Bantering about which athletes could fly commercial, and quips about Max’s financial advice skills.

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MVP Criteria: Valuable = Best? The Flawed Logic

[32:52–43:50]

• Max asserts "most valuable" and "best" are synonyms in evaluating NBA players and breaks down “marginal utility” in the context of MVP voting.
• Both criticize the inconsistency of MVP selection: popularity contest, inconsistent metrics, and voter biases.
• Rich: "The MVP voting…is like my golf game. It's all over the place." [36:03]
• Propose possible solutions:
  • Separate regular season and playoff MVPs
  • Voting committees made up of a mix—media, players, execs (and former MVPs? maybe not)
• Max’s “5 minute rant”: True MVP cannot be known before Finals end—should reward the best player in high leverage games, not just regular-season excellence.

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The Value of IQ & Basketball Fundamentals

[44:28–55:01]

• Rich and Max agree top teams need high basketball IQ—execution of fundamentals, situational awareness, and adaptability are prerequisites for championships.
• Max analogizes to chess: seeing the "signal" (fundamentals) through the "noise" (chaos).
• Rich explains importance of being “a pro” and recounts being drilled in basics (help line, ball line, proper closeouts, coach’s drills).
• Critique of youth basketball culture: too many games, not enough practice or focus on fundamentals, leading to underdeveloped players with athleticism but lacking basketball “instincts.”
• Racism/systemic bias discussion: not about skin color per se, but the broken developmental system in U.S. hoops.

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Listener Mailbag & Notable Questions

[55:56–62:20]

Should the NBA Add a "Pippen Award" for Best #2?

• Listener Mike proposes an award for the “second-best player”—named for Scottie Pippen.
• Both hosts agree: the idea would be unpopular among players; and the NBA already prizes the impactful #2 via all-time team conversations.
• Quote:
  • Rich: "No one wants the Pippen Award. Pippen doesn't even want the Pippen Award. But you’d want to play like Pippen." [58:51]

Rookie Advice: Leave Your High School & College Accolades Behind

• Rich: "Take all the trophies, put them in a box...when you get drafted to the NBA, you become one of 450. Nothing you did matters." [61:00–61:19]
• The NBA is a new start—nothing carries over but your work ethic and adaptability.

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Wemby & The GOAT Debate

[63:15–67:51]

• Max and Rich muse on possible future "GOAT" candidates—Is Wemby the next to truly rival MJ or LeBron if he stays healthy?
• Rich: "If he stays healthy and if people don’t try to penalize him for how it looks…yes." [65:04]
• Extended tangent about injuries derailing great careers—if healthy, Wemby has the potential to be the greatest.
• Quick aside—Kyrie as “most skillful player ever” but not the best overall (Max: because “knowing how to deploy all those skills” is different than merely having them). [66:57]

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Popularity vs. Fame
  Rich: "Athletes are extremely popular. But most aren’t famous." [23:38]
  Rich: "Fame is a global thing. If you're talking about flying private from LA to Chicago, yeah, of course. But I'm talking about fame as… worldwide." [28:49]
• On MVP Criteria
  Max: "Value and best, they're synonyms…MVP should be about the best player, but it always changes." [33:29, 36:03]
  Rich: "The MVP voting…is like my golf game. It's all over the place." [36:03]
• On Basketball IQ
  Rich: "I don't think that you can be a dumb team and win a championship." [45:04]
  Max: "The players who see the signal from the noise by sticking to fundamental basketball are the guys you want on your team." [48:09]
• On Wemby as the Next GOAT
  Max: "Wemby right now is the first guy since LeBron where I'm like, if this dude stays healthy, could he be the goat one day?" [64:36]
  Rich: "If he stays healthy...my answer is yes." [65:04]
• On Rookie Mindset
  Rich: "Take all the trophies, put them in a box...when you get drafted to the NBA, you become one of 450. Nothing you did before this matters." [61:00–61:19]

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Memorable Moments & Banter

• Max and Rich’s riff about which athletes could (or should) fly commercial and the “literal price of fame” [24:05–32:28]
• Max’s playful insistence on the logic of “value = best” in MVP conversations and Rich’s golf self-deprecation [36:03]
• The running inside-joke about Max getting Rich “in trouble” on air [05:54, 49:18]
• Listener proposal for a “Pippen Award”—quickly shot down but sparks nostalgic praise for Scottie Pippen and his hypothetical value in today’s league [55:56–59:59, 59:07–60:10]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:05–05:36: Youth, metabolism, and attraction/dating dynamics
• 07:19–14:18: NBA Finals previews (Thunder, Pistons, Celtics, Nuggets)
• 13:13–22:47: Pistons’ lack of a No. 2 and the Spurs/Wemby discussion
• 22:48–32:28: Popularity vs. Fame debate (SGA, Mahomes, Judge, Ronaldo)
• 32:52–43:50: MVP criteria breakdown and voting flaws
• 44:28–55:01: The role of IQ and fundamentals in championships, youth hoops critique
• 55:56–62:20: Listener mail (Pippen Award, rookie advice)
• 63:15–67:51: Wemby in the GOAT debate, nature of greatness, health, and skill
• 67:51–End: Wrap-up, final jokes, tease of upcoming Bill Simmons discussion

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Overall Tone & Language

The episode balances high-level basketball expertise with breezy, candid, and unfiltered conversation. Both hosts trade playful jabs and personal anecdotes but always return to serious, considered takes on the culture and competitive fabric of the NBA. The language remains direct and jargon-free, with frequent asides and analogies designed to clarify complex points (“signal and the noise,” “literal price of fame,” sports/finance crossovers).

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This summary captures all the major discussions, memorable lines, and analytic deep-dives, ideal for listeners who want a fast but thorough digest of the episode.

Transcript

[A]

Rich. I think my daughter has cracked the code. I think she cracked the code. So. And this. I have a whole thought about this. So I'm like, this girl can eat whatever she wants, right? And she stays thin, she stays lean, right? She can eat whatever she wants. She's young. She's young. That's what you think. Oh, she's young, but she's done growing. It's not like she's going. She's 17. She's not going up anymore. Right. And I realize when you think about, like, staying in shape, you think about. Or not getting fat, you think about diet and exercise, right? Tennis season's over. She's not playing basketball this year. She's not getting a lot of exercise right now. Right? But because of that, she's not hungry. Like, she used to be hungry because she's not getting exercise.

[B]

So she eats one time a day.

[A]

Yeah, she eats snacks and has whatever she wants for dessert, all this stuff. And because of that, she's not really hungry for meals, so she's staying. So she has one or two meals a day. Somehow, by not exercising and eating whatever she wants, she's staying thin.

[B]

No, she's young, and that may just be her bill. She may not ever pick up a ton of weight. I'll tell you what. Just because you picked up weight don't mean she has to pick up weight.

[A]

See, but when I was. This is the crazy thing. This is like, when people are like, oh, don't let your kids, like, drink Coca Cola or whatever, right? Too much sugar, this and that. But I think exactly the opposite. When you're a kid and your metabolism is fast and you're growing and everything. I'm not saying give the kids so much sugar that they're diabetic or anything like that, but I'm saying, like, that's when you can have sugar. That's when you can drink the soda. Like, you don't need the Diet Coke or the Coke Zero, which is what I drink now. You could have dessert. You could have all that stuff. You could have as much pasta as you want. When you're young, your body burns it up.

[B]

It burns it off. It does, yeah.

[A]

The metabolism is good. So what people want to do is not let the kid have candy or all this stuff. And then when you grow up, you can't have it anymore. When you're young is the time to have it.

[B]

I've gotten to the point where I have to have a Coke at dinner.

[A]

Yeah. Oh. Oh.

[B]

I have to, like. I have to have at least One Coke at dinner.

[A]

It's the best. I'll do a Coke Zero, but it's the best.

[B]

I just have to. I wanted to ask you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is it. Do you believe that as a woman. Right, A woman.

[A]

You could not a woman. I can't answer this.

[B]

No, let me get through the question. As a woman, women, period, can date anyone, right. Like a guy could be the King of Sultan and she could be just, you know, a nice.

[A]

What's the quote about Beyonce and Jay? What was the quote? It was. And who said it? This has been Chris Rock. Chris Rock said. Chris Rock said Beyonce could work at. What was it? Burger King or something?

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

But Jay Z couldn't and still land Jay Z. But if Jay's working at Burger King.

[B]

No, this is my point. I do think as a man, most men probably think that the more I have, the more I can get. Right. In terms of. I wanna show this, I wanna be loud, I wanna. You know. And you have to identify what actually interests a woman because all women have different attraction points, I imagine. And so I would think more most women likes a confident man.

[A]

Seems that way.

[B]

But not overly confident, where it seems like brash. Just like a confident man. There's a way to be subtly confident. If you're dealing with someone who is extremely famous. You can't be a fan in that regard. Right. You have to be able to actually be you. And then I think at the end of the day, you wipe away all that stuff, money and fame and celebrity and all that and you focus on just the person and are you a good person or are you not. Are you gonna be able to.

[A]

Most important thing in. If you're talking about not young guys out there, they're not talking about settling down. When you get to the point where you're looking for someone to stay with, that's the most important thing, number one. Most important thing is that is the kind of person they are, the kind of co parent they would be, all that kind of stuff.

[B]

But I would just say like, I get the trinkets and all that. And listen, I like nice things, everyone does. And as a young kid, I love to get fly the whole nine. Because you want it to at least look good for the. Everything is about the girl, right? Right. But when all that smoke clears, I've seen it all. I've seen the girl or the most popular guy have the cutest girl, but she wasn't really into him like that. She was actually into a guy standing in his granny's basement with barely anything but for some reason, he had her. And it just goes to show you it don't matter. All that stuff don't matter. She's gonna choose who she wants to choose.

[A]

Is that the message to the youth?

[B]

I don't know about his message to the youth. I'm just saying it's just the message in general. She's going to do the choosing.

[A]

You ready to do this?

[B]

Yeah. Let's do it.

[A]

Game over.

[B]

With Max Kellerman and Rich Paul gameoverpotify.com and also continue to subscribe. Thank you.

[A]

Put you up on game.

[B]

You put me up on game?

[A]

No, I'm saying we put them up on game.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that was. I mean, we talked about that. I just. It's one of those questions that. It's just. It's a broad thing. But it's a real thing.

[A]

It is a broad thing, but I don't think they like to be called broads anymore.

[B]

No, no, I said broad. What are you talking about? You can't say those things. Max, you have to stop that getting you in trouble. It's not even about getting me in trouble. But you say things.

[A]

You said it, not me. I first needed it. I just said don't.

[B]

Do you ever watch yourself on the TV screen? Do you realize when you're in the moment, you say the most outlandish stuff out. And it all, by the way, what

[A]

comes into my mind.

[B]

Yeah. But it all goes viral. And because of you as your co host.

[A]

Yeah. You get sticks to you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm an accomplice.

[A]

It's a little radioactive. Yeah.

[B]

To your foolishness. Max, I can't do it.

[A]

I can't thought of that before you said, hey, let's do this show. That was. That's not.

[B]

That is true. I thought I was getting that Max. I got the other.

[A]

Yeah, that Max. Because I wasn't anywhere to be found. You're like, oh, he's not making.

[B]

Yeah. You know what? You kind of like, just. I realized something. The idle Max is not good, right?

[A]

No, no.

[B]

Because he gets into all. You need training.

[A]

Idle hands, the devil's workshop.

[B]

You need training wheels. We gotta put training wheels back on your bike.

[A]

That's no fun. All right, let's do this.

[B]

Okay. Let's do.

[A]

Thunder Pistons tonight. Tonight.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So, you know the first question everyone's gonna ask is what?

[B]

Could this be a finals preview? Could it be? Anything's possible. Will it be? I don't think so.

[A]

I. My best guess, it is one of the. If you took all the permutations of possible Finals. This is one of the top three or four, I would say.

[B]

I agree with that. Right? Yes.

[A]

But I have reasons to think right now.

[B]

You know what? I take that back. It could be.

[A]

It could be.

[B]

It could be. It depends on how the seedings shake out and the matchups. When you're in the playoffs, the last thing you want to do is have. Well, with so much parity now, it's probably not going to matter, but normally the last thing you want to do is have three hard series.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it just depends on how it shakes out. If they have to play. If the Pistons have to play the Cavs and the Celtics in some capacity, which I doubt they do, but if it worked out like that, then that's kind of tough. If they have to play the Cavs and the Knicks, maybe a better opportunity for them.

[A]

Knicks, I want. If the Knicks. Anyone on the Knicks is listening. I want you to consider what we're saying.

[B]

No, I'm just saying, you understand, like,

[A]

that's the way it's perceived. Everyone wants to play the Knicks because they're not considered a tough out right now.

[B]

I didn't say that. You said that. I'm saying that the Celtics, to me, is that team that. I just don't know if you want to play them and have to play the Knicks and. Or the Celtics.

[A]

Look, the Celtics and the Thunder are super interesting because the Thunder really haven't been at full strength all year. And that's maybe one of the reasons, like, why guys like me, like, I maybe I'm underrating them right now. They really haven't had their full complement where everyone's no one's no team is all. Everyone's 100%. But everyone is at least themselves, right? Some version of themselves because their third best player has been hurt. Because, like, you know, they just, when they are fully healthy, they're really, really good. Celtics, too. Celtics are in the thick of things without their best player. One of their two best players at the very least.

[B]

Yes. But also the other danger in this is. And this is why sometimes it's. It's the negative part about being the number one seed. The ace seed is such a wild card. So if the AC becomes a very healthy 76ers, now, you got to deal with that's.

[A]

Here it is.

[B]

Maxi, Paul, George and Embiid.

[A]

Right? See, that's a pun. That's a puncher's chance. When people say, oh, they have a puncher's chance, what they mean is more

[B]

than a puncher's chance.

[A]

My point is like, that they could do it. Things have to go right, but they could do it. I'm not usually the AC doesn't even have a puncher's chance.

[B]

No, no. But I'm saying when you are favored to go to the finals, it's more pressure on you to get out of the first round than it is for the AC to get out of the first round.

[A]

Right.

[B]

No one's saying that the Sixers should go to the Finals. But what I'm saying is you don't want to play a healthy Sixers team in the first round.

[A]

Now you're playing with all the pressure.

[B]

If you're healthy, whether you beat them or not, if they take you to seven games, the more games you play in the playoffs, the more risk of injury it is. People wear down. You may have a bad shooting night, whatever the case may be. And also you have to go on the road into Philadelphia. That's not. You're going into a crematory. Like, you know, Philadelphia is Philly.

[A]

Usually they're not in a good mood about the other team.

[B]

They're not in a good mood about anything. Yeah, it's true. Are you crazy? In sports, if you don't play for a Philadelphia team, is Philadelphia against all.

[A]

And so.

[B]

And you have three guys that can give you 30. And when you. And what happens in the playoffs is the rotation shrinks.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So now you only playing eight. Nine guys. Nine guys, really? At the max.

[A]

What, an MBG to 26 minutes, 27 points or something. Give you a minute.

[B]

Yeah. So that, that's. That's the one part about when you are the number one seed and you have to carry it the entire year. It's just a tough thing. But this could be Celtics Nuggets, another one.

[A]

Okay, what's more likely to be a finals preview? Thunder, Pistons or Celtics Nuggets?

[B]

This would be a. Well, like.

[A]

Yeah, Thunder. I got to think about this because, okay, if everyone's going at full strength, I'm going to say Celtics Nuggets is more likely Finals preview if everyone's at full strength. If everyone's at full strength, Celtics Nuggets. And by full strength, I don't mean Tatum's 100%. I'm saying Tatum comes back, gets to 80% and figures out how to fit all that in.

[B]

Most people's 100%.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. I'm saying Tatum doesn't have to be 100%. If he gets to 80%, they're going to be okay, Yes.

[B]

I only say that because I think that the Thunder and the Nuggets are closer, you know, so it could go either way. Teams match up. Whoever wins Game seven is going to win that series.

[A]

I just think maybe it comes down to who's the best player in the world right now between Jokic and Wemby.

[B]

Well, we're not even talking about Wemby.

[A]

Sorry. Sorry. Yeah, no, but Nuggets. You said Nuggets, Thunder, who gets out of the West, Right?

[B]

Oh, yeah. No, I'm saying. You were saying which one is a better. Which one is more likely between the Fighters.

[A]

Right. But in order for that to be likely, we either have to Thunder or the Nuggets. Right. In that situation. And maybe it comes.

[B]

By the way, that's a whole nother conversation.

[A]

This leads to something I want to talk about. I got to give you your flowers. Giving you props right now.

[B]

Oh, Max is giving Rich props.

[A]

Yes, I give you plenty of props. You see? Thank you. So here's the. On Monday, I was fresh off watching the Pistons smack the Knicks, right? And I said, you know what? I'm this close to picking the Pistons to win the whole thing. You said, they're not going to win the whole thing this year because they don't have a Robin, they don't have a number two behind Cade, who can go get you 30 if you need it. So in the playoffs, what's going to happen is everyone's going to concentrate on Cade, and then the Pistons are kind of cooked offensively. And I was like, well, let's see. I don't know. They're balanced. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And then what happened?

[B]

They played the Spurs.

[A]

They played the spurs, and the Pistons don't have a number two. They stopped Cade, and the Pistons got blown out. Now, well, that's not even.

[B]

Yeah, Cade had a bad shooting night.

[A]

He did. He did. But. Okay, but the point is, if Cade

[B]

is off, you're cooked.

[A]

That's not what I want to talk about. I'm talking about the Spurs, Rich. At a certain point, the evidence is in. And just like I think part of me is eager to pick the team that's not ready yet to win because it would be more interesting. So I said, oh, I'm this close to taking this Pistons. How are the spurs not the best team in basketball? How are we not all thinking they're the best team in basketball? Because they beat the Pistons on the road. They beat the Nuggets on the road. They've played them once and beat them at Denver and when you go to Denver, that's a whole thing with the atmosphere and everything. Literally the atmosphere, you know, it's harder to breathe, right? They beat Denver at Denver and they have dominated. They have the okc. They've dominated OKC this year. So when they play those kind of teams that they're likely to play in the west, in the playoffs and in the east eventually meet, they're clearly in the regular season, the better team. Then I look at who they have. When you say, you know who. The Pistons don't have a number two guy who can get you the. The thund. I mean, the spurs have nothing but second best players who can get you 30 if you need it, who can do all types of things. They got a whole gang of guys like that. And then the question becomes, because at least three in the NBA, it almost used to be like proof that this guy is the best player in basketball. When they would win the championship. When teams were evenly matched, a lot of times the team with the best player won the NBA title. When LeBron's teams lost the NBA title, it was usually because the teams were not evenly matched.

[B]

He was, he was probably the underdog in every series, but probably the mav

[A]

series is the one we could. He was young and he, he messed that up. And, and also that year, Nowitzki was the best player in the world when all was said and done. Like, I think he proved that right. But, but otherwise, like when teams are. I'm not sure that Wemby isn't already the best player in the world. He's in the conversation. He's impossible. He's. He's taller than Kareem Abdul Jabbar. And he has. We always like to say, oh, this guy has he. He's good. He's taller than it. We always like to say, oh, that guy has guard skills. He had like, he can shoot, he can handle it.

[B]

I can't understand it. I cannot understand how he got this skill. And I'm gonna tell you something. His, his agents are great. Buna and Jeremy, they great guys. I remember Buna showing me a video of Wemby and he was like, rich, look at this kid. He was like. He gave me the whole backstory. Great kid, his mom, his parents. And he was like, this kid's gonna be number one pick. I think he might have been like 12 or 14.

[A]

Probably would have been the number one pick then.

[B]

And I was like, really, boy? He was like, I'm telling you, how

[A]

tall was he at 12 or 14?

[B]

He looked like he was 6, 9, I'm telling you, like I'm looking at it on the screen. So I really couldn't tell how tall he was, but he was able to show me. And when I watched Wemby, I'm always amazed. And he is a guy you have to go and see in person. But what amazes me more than anything is not the rotation on his three point shot. He's so tall, he has to touch all that, his handle, all that. You know what amazes me more than anything? That a guy of that size would dive on the floor for a loose ball.

[A]

I don't want to see him do that. Don't do that.

[B]

I don't either.

[A]

Don't ever do that. But he not worth that one position.

[B]

But what I'm saying is he unders like the passion, the care that he plays with. If a guy of that size is willing to do that, you're in trouble because the other thing that makes him unbelievable.

[A]

But go ahead.

[B]

He could. When you. You got to watch some of these plays. Yeah. The way he can test a shot, you could miss. His back could be to the. The guy who gets the rebound. And by the time that guy goes up for a second shot, he's turned around and blocked that shot too.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's like two guys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There. It's like you when you play the spurs, it's like there's six guys.

[A]

It's like A.D. if you stretched him

[B]

out like five inches, he's four inches taller. Five inches taller than A.D. maybe half a foot.

[A]

You don't need much.

[B]

It's crazy. But the reason why this, the reason why people don't necessarily look at the spurs the way we do is because they're not loud. And that's always been their thing.

[A]

Not a big market.

[B]

I don't even talk about the market,

[A]

but I'm saying they're not in a big city.

[B]

None of their players are loud.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They're not on social media like that. They just come to work and they play.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Right. And when you play them, you in for a rude awakening because you're going to have to actually win the game. And they like against Detroit, de' Aaron didn't have a great shooting night. I think he was like three. Three for 15 or three for something. Whatever he finished with, he didn't have a great shooting night. But that's another thing. When you play the game and most players, if they have a bad shooting night, they allow it to affect everything else in the game. You can have a bad shooting night and not have a bad game.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But most players want to do what? Score, Score the ball. So if they're having a bad shooting night, it totally impacts the rest of their effort in the game. And that is a losing mentality.

[A]

I'll say. Here's the other thing I think you'll agree with about Wemby. He thinks the game well, for a guy his age, that's super important. When your best player is that much of a focal point of the team and thinks the game well. And thinks.

[B]

But when we were going through quickly and I was talking to de' Aaron about, obviously, once he got to the point to where, you know, it was probably time for a change, the goal was to get to San Antonio because I always felt like this was before they drafted Harper. They needed a point guard, but not just a point guard. You have to have a point guard with the understanding that I'm coming in and I'm not the number one guy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's very important to the culture of the locker room. That's very important to how the team operates. And it takes a special kind of temperament to be paid the max. But also understand that you're not the number one guy. It's called being a pro. That's what it's really called. And so.

[A]

But he is. He is. If we're talking about Fox now, he sort of is the number one guy at the end of games. At the end of games. Let's put it this way. There are certainly nights where he's the number one guy at the end of the game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which he's really good at.

[B]

Yeah. And he could be. I mean, he's. He's one clutch player of the year. I mean, he's been that guy. So. No, look, the spurs are really good. They could also. What am I missing?

[A]

Rich, why can't. Like, when I think about, like, at a certain. This. You and I argued about this last year. In a way, I was right. In a way, you were right. Because I was like, from the middle of the year before we even had the podcast, I was like, thunder are going to kill everybody just because they were winning every game by such a ridiculous margin. At a certain point, you go, they're just better than everyone. You had reasons for thinking, maybe not. And in the end, I'm not convinced they were better than Indiana if Halliburton stays healthy. But they did wind up winning the championship because he got hurt in Game 7. I feel that way about the spurs right now. Like, what am I missing that when they Play okc. OKC has no answer for them. When they go on the road against Denver, they win. When they go to Detroit, they win easily.

[B]

You're not missing anything.

[A]

Why isn't everyone saying, yeah, the spurs should win the.

[B]

But here's the thing. It don't matter what everyone's saying.

[A]

I'm just curious.

[B]

People get on TV and lie every

[A]

day, but what is it?

[B]

Say the craziest thing, so it don't

[A]

even matter, stopping everyone from saying that. You think the fact that they're just

[B]

ahead of schedule, maybe they're not enamored or maybe they just don't know what they're looking at. How about that?

[A]

Yeah, maybe.

[B]

And look, the Pistons, as good as they are, I wouldn't be discouraged if I'm a Piston or if I'm a part of Pistons organization. No, I'm saying organization. If they didn't win it this year because they're trending up.

[A]

No doubt. If they get that. If they just locate that.

[B]

That second scoring threat, they're moving a half away.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of going to the finals in consecutive years.

[A]

They're a move and a half away. Of going to the finals in consecutive years and maybe winning once.

[B]

Of course. Yeah. Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I agree. All right. We're on the same page with that. See this? Shay Gilgeous Alexander shows up in a Jeopardy. Clue. Did you see this?

[B]

No, I did not.

[A]

So no one knew him.

[B]

He was on Jeopardy.

[A]

No, no. He was. He was a clue in Jeopardy. The answer. The answer was sga, but no one knew the answer.

[B]

No one on Jeopardy. Knew that. Of course not.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

Why would they know who SGA is on Jeopardy?

[A]

I don't know. He's the best player on the reigning champions. They have a great record.

[B]

See, that's where we get it confused.

[A]

Mvp.

[B]

Yes. But. But that's in a. In a very small world, contrary to everyone else. Because there's a dip. Like, athletes are extremely popular.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But most aren't famous.

[A]

What's the difference?

[B]

There's a huge difference between popularity and fame.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Popularity actually should be embraced, especially when you're an athlete, because you have brands, you're trying to move product and different things like that. You're trying to gain followers and voters and all those things that matter.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it's not as annoying publicly as being famous and people. Everybody knows you when you're famous.

[A]

Like you.

[B]

Like Michael Jackson was famous.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Oh, wait a minute. Are you saying that popularity.

[B]

Popularity, SGA was.

[A]

Popularity means that people know you and Those who know you like you. And fame is just everyone knows you.

[B]

Yes. When you're famous, you can't even think about all the people you know that was famous. How many people you know? Let me ask you this question. How many athletes you know that's famous? Famous? Not. Not known.

[A]

LeBron is famous. Steph is famous. KD is famous. I'm just thinking about, like, my daughter and her friends when they were kids. It's a little different in New York, obviously. Tom Brady, Patrick Mahomes famous. How many Super Bowls you got to win before you're famous? I think Patrick Mahomes is famous. But I get your point. It's like, if you even have to stop to consider whether or not Patrick Mahomes is famous.

[B]

What about baseball players?

[A]

Aaron Judge, Shohei Ohtani.

[B]

You think Aaron Judge is famous? No, I think Shohei's famous. I don't think Aaron Judge is famous. I know, but see, this is my point.

[A]

Okay, so because you love Yankees, it's interesting. No, you're saying Patrick Mahomes and Aaron Judge. You're saying no to. I'm saying Patrick Mahomes and Aaron Judge are borderline famous in the way you're defining famous.

[B]

Patrick Mahomes and Aaron Judge is two of the most popular athletes in America.

[A]

That's a good way to put it.

[B]

Now, famous meaning that you can show up in a foreign country to you, and people know who you are. I don't know about that.

[A]

Well.

[B]

And I'm not saying that people are not worldwide sports. I'm just not saying it in a negative way either. It's just like, I think that. I think an athlete understanding that they're popular and not famous can save them a lot of money.

[A]

How so?

[B]

Because they don't have to move around as if they're famous. And they don't have to do some of the things that famous people.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

Because. Because you actually should go the other way. You shouldn't. Like, if you feel like you're famous and that causes you to have to fly private everywhere you go.

[A]

I see what you mean. Yeah.

[B]

You're wasting a lot of money. Because the reality of it is you may get one or two people to ask you for.

[A]

Aaron Judge can't fly commercial. Dude. Even letting alone the fact that he's too big. If you see Aaron Judge on a commercial flight that's off.

[B]

I had a nice. I had a nice dinner with Aaron Judge one day at the Sunset Tower. He's a very smart guy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He can fly commercial. There's no question about it.

[A]

Maybe internationally. You get on a Delta flight or something like that and you see Aaron Judge sitting here like, what is he doing?

[B]

Definitely internationally.

[A]

Signed a quarter billion dollar contract.

[B]

Okay, definitely internationally. You're saying that as a die hard Yankee fan. But let's just break it down. If Aaron Judge is sitting in the front seat in the first class of a Delta flight and people get on, most people getting on is going to say, oh, there's Aaron Judge. But he's going to have a hat on. He might have a hood on.

[A]

Nah, I don't see Garrett Cole. Yes. Not Aaron Judge.

[B]

No, that's not true.

[A]

Garrett Cole could go commercial for sure.

[B]

Yes, he can. That's why you would be a bad financial advisor. You would be terrible because you don't have a gauge on what guys are famous.

[A]

How many famous athletes do you think?

[B]

There are very few famous athletes.

[A]

So I said, LeBron. Steph. Is James Harden famous?

[B]

No, he's very popular.

[A]

James Harden, the beard, the whole thing. He's pretty recognizable.

[B]

That's the difference between recognizable and famous are two different things. What are you talking about?

[A]

So name the famous.

[B]

And by the way, that's not a knock to any of these guys. It's hard to be famous.

[A]

Is Ronaldo famous? Yes, but. But if he got on a commercial flight, I wouldn't even recognize him.

[B]

That's you. Why you keep putting yourself in it.

[A]

Because we live in America, dude. Because in America you're talking about international.

[B]

But here's my point.

[A]

Because we live in America, let's assume we're flying domestic.

[B]

No, because we live in America. We think that America is all that matters. The world is huge.

[A]

In America, Patrick Mahomes is way more famous than Ronaldo.

[B]

Of course he is. He plays for the Kansas City Chiefs.

[A]

Aaron Judge is way more famous in America.

[B]

He plays for the New York Yankees.

[A]

I'm talking about taking a domestic flight somewhere.

[B]

Yeah, but fame is a global thing. If you're talking about flying private from LA to Chicago. Yeah, of course. Okay.

[A]

That's what I'm talking about.

[B]

I'm talking about fame is.

[A]

He's operating on a different level already. You're talking. I'm not thinking about taking a private international flight.

[B]

No, no. I'm saying. Well, I wouldn't. I wouldn't advise nobody, nobody to take a private international. Well, you can take a private international flight, but I would say you should fly commercial internationally. Save that money.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

And then fly private with Russia.

[A]

I have sat across like in first. First class. In International flight scene, all types of legit famous celebrities on international flights.

[B]

Are you crazy?

[A]

But I'm saying domestic, right? Domestically, yes. Aaron Judge and Patrick Mahomes. I'm agreeing with you mostly if you're saying they're borderline according to your definition, but they might be on the right side of that border.

[B]

Famous. And you're just capping it. At America, every guy you named is famous.

[A]

If you're saying that, you're saying worldwide fame.

[B]

That's what I consider famous. I don't consider famous in America. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know what the problem is? You have relationships that are too close with extremely famous people. So you are.

[B]

That's a fair point.

[A]

So you are. You think that the level of fame, like the two people that you are most associated with in the public imagination are legit extremely famous worldwide. But. So you're. I think your view has become skewed about. You're talking about. It's like when people say the hall of Fame and then there's the inner room of the hall of Fame. You're talking about the inner room of fame.

[B]

No, I'm saying it's not a negative thing. I just think it's a real thing. Like popularity and fame are two different things. And by the way, I don't care to be neither one of them at the level that these guys are because especially when you're a tall guy. Yeah. You stand out already now during the Olympic times, the USA team, they can't go anywhere.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But why? Because everyone's there for the Olympics and people understand it and know it. And then now you know that, hey, all these athletes are in the country and the city, whatever the case may be. But no, it's.

[A]

You talk about like, listen, people get that you're making an interesting distinction and kind of creating your own definition, which I think is useful, of the difference between popularity, which means you're well known, and that people like you. Right. You're popular.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's not like they hate you. They like you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But insofar as you're known, and fame, which is every single person basically, you can assume knows who you are.

[B]

You could add another layer to that. There's a difference between being famous, popular, and having notoriety.

[A]

Well, notoriety is different. People misuse that word. Notoriety means you're known for a bad thing. But people use notoriety to mean that you're simply famous. Right. That's not the same thing. Yeah. Notoriety is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is. Is a kind of infamy.

[B]

I know very few famous people. Right.

[A]

But I can Think of two that you know really well and are super famous.

[B]

Yeah. No, I'm saying I. Well, and I'm all about a few famous athletes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I'm all about saving money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if you are able to understand that your popularity is in fame and you can actually move around and. Yeah. Would you have to sign a couple autographs, take a couple pictures? Yeah, but who cares, right? But when you look at your financial statement at the end of the year, and you figured out that.

[A]

Wait a minute, what's the literal price of fame?

[B]

Yeah. I saved a million and a half dollars, Right. Because I realized that I'm popular. I'm not famous. My dad used to, when he wanted to, like, get off of playing the lottery, like, wing himself off of playing the lottery, instead of playing the number, whatever he was going to play that day, he would put it in, like, a little water jug and at the

[A]

end of the year, save that money.

[B]

At the end of the year, he would count it, and then he would go on a trip.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So Pops could have hit the hit.

[B]

That's the game for you, man.

[A]

Pops could have hit that number, gone on the trip and had some money and plus had fun gambling.

[B]

I'm giving you.

[A]

Is that the wrong. Is that the wrong thing?

[B]

That's the wrong thing. Just don't go into finance, please.

[A]

MVP criteria, Rich.

[B]

Sorry, Max, I had to fit my hat. They said they couldn't see my face. My young face.

[A]

Yeah, well, I could see that there's a shadow. Now the shadow's over your face.

[B]

Why didn't you tell me?

[A]

I didn't notice it before.

[B]

A real friend would have said, rich,

[A]

it's not like you had some stuff on your face. And I didn't say. I just didn't. Okay.

[B]

That's fair. Yeah.

[A]

I'm just saying, I'm sitting right here

[B]

next to you, but we have to get that down. Like, if you. You know.

[A]

So now I know. I think what they're looking at is the light is over your eyebrows now. And before, maybe it was under. I don't know.

[B]

Okay, well, what? We good?

[A]

All right.

[B]

Mvp. What?

[A]

Everyone makes this whole thing. I'm gonna say something no one's gonna like right now.

[B]

Okay, well, what else is new?

[A]

So, mvp. People love to say there's. What's the criteria for mvp? Is it most valuable or is it best? Blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm here to tell everyone, Rich, it's the same thing. Value and best, they're synonyms. They don't mean different. Things. And real quick, what people seem to be saying about MVP is that it is decided by what's called marginal utility. You told me not to go into finance. Maybe I'll get this definition wrong, but this is the way I use the term. And I'll explain marginal utility meaning how much of something that you add really improves the situation. Right. At a certain point you can add a unit of something and it really helps you. But once you get to a certain level, you add another unit, it doesn't help you that much. It's one of the arguments why rich people should pay more in taxes than broke people. Cuz a working man, that extra dollar means more than a rich guy, that extra dollar doesn't mean much. Right. Marginal utility. So MVP becomes to people, when they try to make it about most values different than best marginal utility, they start looking well, Jaylen Brown, look at what he's doing with the Celtics right now. And he's missing his crime partner in Jayson Tatum. He must be the mvp. Well, if you think he is the

[B]

end, he's definitely being in the talks.

[A]

He is in the talks because of how excellent he is. Because of how good he is. Because when I watch him, I can see he plays both ends of the floor at a very high level because he plays team ball. Because if you need him to get a bucket, he'll get a bucket. If you need him to do something uncomfortable, he can go do that and get the and one when it's not easy, he can shoot the three, he can make the right read the right pass, all that kind of stuff, right? So, but that's excellence. And that excellence is what the. See, if you make it about marginal utility for your team, what you're doing is you're turning the MVP award conversation into something that's supposed to isolate and reward individual value to a team award. Rich, there's already a team award. It's called the standings. That's the team award. Your team is here. It's the standings. Now we're going to look for who's the most valuable or best player and that yes, that'll affect the standings. But you're trying to isolate their value, not turn it back into a standings conversation.

[B]

So are you saying that LeBron should have 20 MVP trophies?

[A]

He should have legit. LeBron should have no fewer than seven. I would say probably eight MVPs by my count.

[B]

I agree. I just Listen, the MVP voting all these things is like my golf game. It's all over the place, right? It really is.

[A]

Are you Struggling a little bit.

[B]

I mean, struggling with a K. It's a hard game.

[A]

Yeah, I'll take that as a yes.

[B]

It's a hard game, Max. Okay, relax. It's a hard game.

[A]

I'm asking a question.

[B]

I'm just saying it's a hard game.

[A]

Seems like they put it on a tee for you.

[B]

Yeah, the mvp, you know, in baseball,

[A]

if the pitcher, they put it on a tee for him, that's a good thing. It means he could hit it.

[B]

They could put it on a tee, they could put it on a funnel. It's not going to matter. It's still hard. But yeah, I mean, I agree the MVP should be about the best player, but it always changes. It never. It depends on who's in the runnings. And then there's so many different components to it. And I saw Perk get annoyed the other day. But it is a popularity contest sometimes. And you know, you don't have to like the messenger, but it is. It's a popularity contest sometimes. And the guy who's supposed to win doesn't always win, whether that's one person or the other. You know, I'm not just being biased to lj. There's been several guys that probably could have won the MVP trophy and should have won it, but didn't win it.

[A]

It's just an excuse.

[B]

Jokic could make the argument he should have won it three years.

[A]

No, he should have won it four years in a row. This is what I'm saying. One year I thought embiid and another year they give it to SGA every year. Jokic has been healthy. He's looking back at it. He was clearly better than ever.

[B]

Fatigue and I think you started adding team thing in.

[A]

Writers and voters are butchered.

[B]

They shouldn't have a vote like these votes should be with within committees. Not because it's too easy to sway someone's mindset. Right. And as a writer, no offense to the writers, but all these people have votes like what. What are you basing your criteria on? And I agree with that. In all NBA, I just think we should have a committee that's made up of me.

[A]

Oh, sorry.

[B]

Hell no. But the committee should actually what would be good is the committee should be former MVPs.

[A]

What makes them so smart about the MVP just because they want it. Excellent excellence is not their. Their ability to analyze another.

[B]

Would you rather have a ask the players? Would you rather. Well, the only thing I would say about that is then we have to do a screening on like yeah, you have to do like an envy screening because it gets so difficult. But it should be a mixture of media, players and executives in some case. Right. You have to be. And that way it gives a balanced room.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

If you just give it to media, then it's a little tough, in my opinion.

[A]

Okay. I'll tell you why.

[B]

Because now you're upset at LJ and he don't get unanimous. You love this person, so you vote for him just out of spite because what? Somebody probably didn't speak to you after a game. You just happened to.

[A]

This happened in baseball. I remember Hideki Matsui in the Rookie of the Year was clearly the rookie of the Year. But one baseball writer was like. Who was like. The decide was wouldn't vote for him because he felt like he played too long in Japan. So he really wasn't a rookie. But he really.

[B]

What does that have to do with

[A]

the Major League Baseball? Right. I'll tell you what, Rich, because I went about 90 seconds or so probably on that marginal utility thing about mvp.

[B]

You won't do your five minute rant.

[A]

No. Instead of doing the five minute rant, I have one more point to make about that and I'll count that as the five minute rant.

[B]

Okay, Perfect. Yeah. Because we gotta get through.

[A]

There's a second part to mvp, number one. It's value and best is. Are synonyms in the NBA. If you're the most valuable, you are the best. You know why? We're measuring how many wins you bring your team, how much you contribute to your team winning. And I don't care if one player has a more complete skill set. When you look at them, they can go right, they can go left, they can post, they can do this, they can shoot, they can pass, and they can do all those things. But if they don't have the judgment to deploy those skills in such a way, or maybe they're just not tall enough or whatever it is to. To have a greater impact on their team winning than someone else does. Then no matter how you isolate all their skills, they're not as good at basketball as the other guy. Because how good you are at basketball is defined by how much you help your team win. That's how good you are. And that's exactly the same thing as value. They are synonyms. There's no logician who's going to prove otherwise. Because they're wrong. Because logically I'm correct. So that's the first part. The second part is you cannot have a regular season award in a league where 2/3 of the team are playing after the regular season because it is so unlikely that the actual mvp, meaning the best player in basketball, which is the same as the most valuable, is not one of. In. In still playing after the regular season when only one third of the teams aren't. Right. Like I suppose it could happen. But if that does happen, then they should still win MVP at the end of the playoffs. What I'm saying. And then you have a two month playoff. A two month playoff. How can you possibly. And each one of those games is a much higher leverage game than each one of the games that preceded it in the regular season. So basically the post season just gets rid of teams who really maybe shouldn't even have been in the league that year. And then, and then it's two months long. Number one, MVP value and best are synonyms. Absolutely. Every time. Impossible to prove otherwise. If you think they're not, you are wrong. And number two, there is no way to know who that player is before the end of the finals. That is not to say that it can only go to the guy who wins the finals, but it is to say that that will weigh heavily, and it should on who's the mvp. Now that's five minute max.

[B]

No, I. Listen, I agree. But I have a question for you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So what happens or what should happen when the guy has been the best player for the entire regular season and then also the best player in the playoffs?

[A]

Mvp.

[B]

Come on, you have an mvpp?

[A]

Yeah. Like I'll give you the perfect example. I bring it up all the time. 2016, Steph Curry was not just the MVP, he was the unanimous, unanimous MVP. And by the way, he deserved it. In the regular season, however, then came the highest leverage games that counted the most. At the end of the playoffs, it was extremely clear that LeBron James was the best player in basketball and therefore the mvp. Now the only argument against that is max. You could say he was the best. How many games did he play? How could you claim he's the best if he's missing all these games? While let's say, I'm saying like hypothetically, you could have a situation. One guy's missing all these games, the other guy doesn't, so he has more value. Yeah, but then if the other guy is available, the one who missed the games for the highest leverage games, and he balls out, then it doesn't matter that much.

[B]

The only way to fix this, you have to have a regular season MVP and a playoff mvp.

[A]

You could do it that way.

[B]

That's the only way to do it.

[A]

But then you should have a super mvp. Okay, I'll do three regular season mvp. Playoff mvp. Overall mvp.

[B]

Ooh, I like overall mvp. But what do you have to do to win? Wouldn't the playoff MVP be the overall mvp?

[A]

No. Cause let's say some guy was hurt a lot in the regular season. His teammates got him to the playoffs. Let's say Jason Tatum this year only plays 14 games in the regular season, but ball's out of control in the playoffs and is the mvp.

[B]

But who would win the overall MVP in that case?

[A]

We. We'd have to debate it. People would debate it. And unless you want to leave it up to me, I'm happy to accept

[B]

this is going to need a little fix of flat. We got to. We got to fix this a little bit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But before we go, I have something for you.

[A]

Go ahead.

[B]

Do you think how. Let me rephrase this. How important is IQ to a championship team?

[A]

I would say it's the most important thing. If I had to say. Let me rephrase that. It is not the most important thing. It is the prerequisite. So if you want to call that the most important thing, like, I don't think you can win it without it.

[B]

Yes, I agree. I don't think that you can be a dumb team and win a championship.

[A]

Agreed.

[B]

And I think that the game. Most people think, oh, the game was won on the last second shot or the game was won two minutes left to go in the game. No, I watch a lot of basketball, and I think the most frustrating thing for coaches is coming out of a timeout, something breaks down. After we worked on this all week, we come out of the timeout and something breaks down. But what I come to learn is there's times within games that it has to click for you to make the simple play, because that simple play leads to execution, and that execution throughout the duration of the game allows you to stay, what I would say, two car lengths ahead in the race.

[A]

Can I interrupt you for one second?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

This is something. It's a compliment. So, you know, you say, I don't give you your problem.

[B]

I didn't say that. I said, I appreciate it. Earlier in the show, I said, I appreciate it.

[A]

Said it insulted him a little bit. Little bit. Watching a basketball game with you is. I really enjoy watching basketball with you because there are some people who see things in very basic, simple terms. When something seems complex, they stick to the fundamentals and the basics, and it makes everything very clear. Right. And I think you're that kind of basketball analyst. My favorite chess book that I ever read, it's an outdated book because there are all these hyper modern chess theories now. But my favorite book I ever read was called Logical Chess Move by Move by Irving Chernev. Okay. And he shows you how to play chess even though it's outdated. It'll make a beginner strong very quickly by showing you games between a master and first a beginning type player, then a master and an intermediate player, then a master versus an expert. And he breaks down the game and shows you why. And he sticks to the fundamentals. You have to fight for control of the middle of the board. Try to get your opponent to loosen their pawn structure in front of their king because of X, Y and Z. Try to create weaknesses in the pawn structure because you can exploit them. That's the way you talk about basketball. You will break things down. Max, look at this.

[B]

Boom, boom, boom.

[A]

And it's very fundamental. It's not complex. But that allows you to see the game very clearly. It turns something that looks like chaos into, you know, who was it? Was it Nate Silver who had the book, the signal and the noise? Like there's a lot of noise and you have to find the signal. And the way you find the signal is by sticking to the function fundamentals. Right? And I think that's what you're talking about here. The players who are smart and see the signal from the noise by sticking to fundamental basketball are the guys you want on your team.

[B]

Absolutely. No, you're spot on. But that's how I grew up learning the game and obviously playing the game. And that's ultimately what wins when. You know, like prime example, if you're big and you get an offensive rebound, there's only two choices. You either go back up if you can. First of all, before going back up, when you get a rebound, you're taught to hold the ball high because you're big. Don't bring it down, they can't get it right. So you can go back up, but from there you kick the ball back out. Those are the only two choices you have. You don't make a backdoor three foot pass. You don't just hold the ball high, go up, or you kick the ball back out. If you are a shooter, right? Shot clock running down, shoot. Don't try to put the ball, don't try to do anything that you're not really good at doing. The problem is, what if you're is.

[A]

Well, I'm not gonna say it. I don't wanna get you in trouble. It's not fair that every time I bring something up, you get in trouble. Right?

[B]

Like, yeah, you like my older brother.

[A]

Is that what happened?

[B]

Yeah, because you know how many, you know how many times I got in trouble because of what my old. You know, when your older brother does something wrong.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everybody gets whooped.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I'm like, damn, I just caught a stray for no reason.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Belt came out the closet.

[A]

But there is an example of recent, very recent vintage in basketball.

[B]

Very.

[A]

Like last night where someone who can absolutely shoot had an open look, passed it up, and they lost the game.

[B]

No, this I.

[A]

By the way, I don't blame Luca for that. I don't blame LeBron for that. To me, that's one of those things. It's a split second thing.

[B]

And those things happen.

[A]

Those things happen.

[B]

I'm talking about.

[A]

I understand.

[B]

I'm just talking about. I watch a lot of basketball and I will say this. Let's get to the mail. I would say if you want to be really good in the NBA, I think just as much as you work on your individual skill set, add make sure that you integrate IQ at the top of that list.

[A]

Who was it that instilled this in you? The idea of fundamental basketball,

[B]

man, the reality of it is, I mean, I went to, I played at Cleveland Benedict in which we used to do the shell drill for two weeks.

[A]

And who's your coach?

[B]

Coach Frank Novak. And when I tell you understanding help line, ball line, the correct hand to actually close out, the correct way to close out. And bring breakdown before you close out, if you have a guy in the corner, you closing out in the corner. If you open up and you let that guy go to the middle, you're coming out the game. If you're closing out in the corner, you break down and you open up to the baseline. Because if he dribbles that way, the baseline becomes a defender for you. He's out of bounds. If you're the low man and you're not necessarily in the middle of the paint about in the NBA it's a three second. So you have to make sure you stay there, one, two, and then you get out. But in high school, you can literally stand there and they do what you call help line, ball line. And you have to really be turning your head. Because the other thing is most players, especially great players, that's got to be

[A]

a super heads up player like you

[B]

know, and their weaknesses is if you are playing help defense and you're not turning your head and you're ball watching. The moment you ball watch, that man's going to cut back door. So these things are like baked in, you know.

[A]

So part of basketball IQ is at a certain age you have to be drilled in the fundamentals. So you no longer. So that part of your brain, your frontal lobes no longer have to be thinking about that because it's in your reptilian brain now. Right. Like it's an instinct.

[B]

The comment that Katie made the other day, com Katie made a comment saying that he felt like it was a shot at the black athlete. That they were saying that, oh yeah, you know, European, European style, et cetera. And part of it I, I agree with. But as much as it's about the athlete, it's not so much as about the athlete. It's about the system that the athlete is growing up in. It's changed. What I mean by that is we practice and we practice and we practice and we practice and we played today. It's all these games. It's very little practice. If it is practice, nobody wants to actually pay attention, right. They just want to play to show how great I am. You got more celebrations than you have execution of anything. And then you have whether it's parents in the crowd wondering why my son isn't playing. You have the monetization of it all. There's so many different elements to it now that it's not so much as about the skin tone of the athlete. And I understand Katie, what Katie is

[A]

noticing is in the Venn diagram of what is considered good and what is considered not as good as, even if it's not as a result of race, there's a big shaded area where there's an overlap between the style that they say isn't good and the race of those that group and vice versa.

[B]

When you go through a pre draft process, when you go to Chicago, they do interviews. They started that interview. I don't know what year it started. We can research that. But they didn't start the interviews because they wanted to know how great of a basketball player. They start the interviews because they were getting the evaluation of your character and how you thought a lot of that was targeted towards obviously the black players. There's more black players than anything.

[A]

If I was a white player in that interview process, I'd fake a Slavic accent. Just fake it.

[B]

But the system is broke. That is the real issue. So now this is the issue. When you, if you come through this system and it's already broken but you're talented enough to actually still make it to the NBA. Then it all starts to break down, right? Because if you are forced to have to fit into a role, one, you're gonna be reluctant. Two, you might lack the fundamentals to

[A]

understand the whole thing is at a certain stage in your development. Did you get drilled in the fundamentals so by the time you get to

[B]

that next level, you don't have to

[A]

think about them anymore. It's like this happens in boxing. You see two guys. One's athletic, he looks good, the other one also you look at their amateur background. This dude had eight amateur fights. This dude went to international competitions. That dude's going to win.

[B]

He's going to win.

[A]

Because the guy who doesn't have that background has to. When I say frontal lobes versus reptilian brain, I mean like when you have to stop, stop and think about everything you're gonna do because it hasn't been drilled into you, you're slower.

[B]

But by the way, this was great. Coaches all over the country, you know, Mr. Hurley, who was a great coach you had, who's, I mean the Prolifics coach or Mount Verge coach today you had even AU coaches like Mac Irvin, like he actually taught the. From an AAU position.

[A]

Need more teachers.

[B]

Yeah, you have to have that.

[A]

You want to do some email?

[B]

Yeah, let's do some email real quick. Yeah.

[A]

Mike in Nashville, Tennessee. Hey, what's up? We celebrate the finals MVP every year. But championships in the NBA are almost won by two elite guys. What if the league created the Pippen Award, named after Scottie Pippen for the second best player on a championship team? I kind of like it.

[B]

You think people would want.

[A]

Well, first of all, listen, hold on. Listen. I left this part out. How many Pippins would guys like Kobe Bryant, early 2000s have that. That would have ruined that team because Kobe would have been going nuts.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Steph Curry, depending on the year. Oof. That would have. I don't know. Now I'm thinking it's not a good idea.

[B]

I don't know if that's a good idea. And that's, that's no knock to Scotty.

[A]

Scotty's an all time great. He just shared the court with Michael Jordan.

[B]

Yeah, but I would revert. I would, I would look at it a little bit different. I would say instead of it calling the second best player on the team, I would call it the most impactful player on the team.

[A]

But that's the best player.

[B]

No, it's not. How is that?

[A]

No, it's not the most impact. You're talking marginal utility.

[B]

No, I'm not talking marginal. No, I'm not.

[A]

You're saying you add him, and that has the biggest impact because this guy's already holding it down.

[B]

No, Michael was. Michael, he was the best player on the team, but Scotty was the most impactful player on the team. Yes, he was.

[A]

He was the guy who, because Michael Jordan was on the team, put it over the top. Right, but. So you're saying that's. That's impactful. That's. You're. You're. That's what I mean by marginal utility.

[B]

But.

[A]

Okay, Elisa, you want to call it the marginal utility. Utility award.

[B]

I'm trying to give it a better look. All right, then the second best player.

[A]

Okay, let's look. It wouldn't work because I think it's talking about.

[B]

How about that? The fact that we had to do this. It's a bad idea.

[A]

But let's. Let's apply it even though it's a bad idea. Kobe gets the Pippen Award. I'm not sure, like, here's the thing. In the finals, he does get the Pippen Award, and Shaq gets mvp. But in the conference finals, which back then, let's admit, it was usually actually.

[B]

No, but it's only about the finals.

[A]

I get it. But in the conference finals against the spurs, like, Kobe was the mvp.

[B]

This is only about the finals.

[A]

Dwyane Wade would have a Pippen award for Miami with LeBron, but also the Jordan Award for Miami with Shaq.

[B]

Yes, he would.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who else is like that? Anyone else could have both.

[B]

Your famous line. Iguodala would have a Pippen Award, but

[A]

he wouldn't have an mj. He'd only have a Pippin.

[B]

That's funny.

[A]

I want to see if the Celtics do win it this year. I'd love to see how that breaks down.

[B]

See, that's why it's not good.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

That's a bad thing. That's the bad.

[A]

Rex.

[B]

Who said that?

[A]

But it's an interesting idea.

[B]

I appreciate the email, but we don't.

[A]

Mike in Nashville.

[B]

No, it's very interesting, but we don't. I don't think no player. I retract my statement. I don't think.

[A]

No. Sponge it from the record.

[B]

I'm expunging it. I don't think no player would want that.

[A]

All right.

[B]

And that's no offense to Pippin.

[A]

No one wants the Pippen Award. No one wants a Pippen Award.

[B]

No. I tell you one thing.

[A]

Pippen doesn't even want the Pippen. Award.

[B]

You may not want a Pippen award, but you better. You should want to play like Scotty Pippen.

[A]

No question.

[B]

That's what you want.

[A]

And by the way, let me say one thing quickly.

[B]

If Scotty Pippen was in the. Let me just tell you something. Yeah. If Scottie Pippen was in the league today, he is everything that you want.

[A]

And he'd shoot three better because he'd shoot it more.

[B]

Teams want 14 Scottie Pippens today.

[A]

Right?

[B]

100%.

[A]

If we had a Scottie Pippen for the Olympic team.

[B]

No, this Olympic team would only want Scottie Pitts.

[A]

Right? That's what I'm saying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You want like guys who can switch, guys who can defend, guys who can

[B]

score 11 sleep pippens and then Tyrese Maxey because you need the speed and maybe.

[A]

And maybe a concan nipple or two just to shoot.

[B]

But everybody else, you. Because you want guys that could get. That could. That's interchangeable.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Scottie Pippen would have made. Cause he. The thing about Scottie, he would have basketball chill. He'd have made a billion dollars, Scotty.

[A]

Billion.

[B]

A billion.

[A]

Don't say that. With Scottie Pippen making 2,3 million a year his whole career, he would have made a.

[B]

Right now, today. Scottie Pippen would have never not been a max player. Are you kidding me?

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Here's the other thing about Pippen. Jordan leaves the league for two years. My late great brother Sam used to say it's like a perfect real world experiment. Here we have a parallel universe. Without mj, who's the best player in the game? The answer was Hakeem. But you know who the second best player in the game was? Scotty Pippen. Right there with Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Stockton, everyone was in their prime. Scotty was, other than Hakeem, the best player in the league.

[B]

That's when you really got to see him do his thing. And he had two of the hottest shoes.

[A]

Yeah, right. That always factors in somehow.

[B]

Yeah. The 96 Olympic shoe with the air on the side for. Forget about it.

[A]

Rex asked 160. What's one piece? This is for you, Rich. What's one piece of advice you wish every rookie could hear before their first season?

[B]

Oh, I have many, but just one.

[A]

What's the number one?

[B]

Nothing you did before this. Statistically. What do you call when you get an award?

[A]

Accolades.

[B]

Accolade. Wise matters. Take all the trophies, put them in a box.

[A]

You haven't done anything.

[B]

Put them inside the closet and forget about it. I don't care about McDonald's all American. I don't care about any of that. When you get drafted to the NBA, you become one of 450. I don't care if they got you slotted to be a starter. That's fine. There's a draft every year. You have to be hungry every year. You have to be a pro. Listen, you can mess around if you want to. You have to be a pro.

[A]

I love that so much, Rich. So you're saying that the number one thing you tell a rookie is nothing you have done so far matters.

[B]

It starts now because most people. Most people think that the NBA is like having a. A cell phone with Singular in 2001. There's no rollover minutes here. Like, nothing you did matters. It's like, great. Oh, I was. I was a McDonald's All American.

[A]

And now how many dudes are like that in this league? Right?

[B]

Yeah. Like, what does that have to do with anything?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And so I think that's extremely important. And everybody around them should tell them the same thing you. I always tell guys, we're going to enjoy tonight. You got drafted. There's no. There's no bad. There's no such thing as a bad draft day. I don't care if you go one. I don't care if you go 60.

[A]

You're in the NBA.

[B]

You are amongst the elite of all elite. But now you got to stay there. And rookie contracts, max, I don't know if you know this. Two years guaranteed. The other two years are team options. So when you see those. When you see those announcements, this guy signed X. Yeah. But you gotta. You gotta dig a little bit deeper under the surface. Two years guaranteed. And really that's one year to figure it out, because now they're evaluating you at that moment.

[A]

Last one. Marcelo writes best of the best. Who will fall into the goat discussion. He's talking about the NBA again if Wemby stays healthy. Let me just say, since mj, when I was a little, little kid, I heard stories about the Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, and I would watch Bird and Magic, and Dr. J was a little older in the NBA already. And I remember looking at Bird, especially to be honest and be like, he played for the Celtics, so I hated him. But I'm a little kid, and I'm like, I'm never going to see someone better than that. That guy is as good as it gets. And then MJ came around and I was like, all right, I saw someone better than that. The first one to say it was Larry Bird, he's like, yeah, that guy's the best since MJ. You and I debate this. You say LeBron, I say MJ. I've never wondered after, is that guy as good as MJ? I think definitively it's MJ, like decisively. However, when LeBron came around, that was the first time where I was looking at someone going, he has a chance. Let me see what happens. I don't think I've seen someone since LeBron where looking at him I'm like, could he be better than mj? I mean Kobe a little bit, but Kobe was so much like mj, I just didn't think quite as good. Wemby right now is the first guy since LeBron where I'm like, if this dude stays healthy, could he be the goat one day? He's seven foot, maybe five, he plays both ends of the floor, he can think the game, he can shoot, he

[B]

has the right demeanor.

[A]

He got a handle.

[B]

To answer your question, if he stays healthy, it's two things. If he stays healthy and if people don't try to penalize him for how it looks because it didn't see most people try to penalize you because it didn't look like their goat look.

[A]

Uh huh. I agree.

[B]

It's just about the. It's just about his body of work. So my answer is yes, people want

[A]

the next guy to look like the last guy. And in the NBA especially, cause Kobe was basically a exact replica.

[B]

And most people don't look how they don't look the way they look when they went to bed. When they wake up, they don't look. Everything is different. So how do you expect a guy's career to look like the guy?

[A]

But then the question becomes, so for Wemby, there's a couple things. One, given his physiology just at that height, it's not. If you had to bet, you wouldn't bet with him staying healthy his whole career just because he's a giant. He's so big. So he has to overcome those that pitfall.

[B]

Yeah, but that's. But here's the thing. We could always say if someone stays healthy, that's baked in. That goes for any athlete.

[A]

Yeah, but especially for a dude 7 5.

[B]

No, I understand that there's a higher risk, but I'm just saying, any the greatest athletes, right. We were deprived of Penny's career because he got hurt. We were deprived of Grant Hill's career because he got hurt. We were deprived of Brandon Roy's career because he got hurt.

[A]

By the way, Derrick Rose, really, we were.

[B]

Forget about it. We were deprived of Derrick Rose's career because he got hurt. I mean, if.

[A]

Listen, let alone dudes who are like Bernard King, like regular jump shooting dudes

[B]

can get hurt if Kyrie don't have the knickknack injuries that he's had. Yeah. He is by far the greatest point guard to ever touch a basketball.

[A]

You think so?

[B]

There's no think.

[A]

Do you know that Magic Johnson touched a basketball?

[B]

And I love Magic Johnson.

[A]

One jumped at center as rookie. Gave him 42, 15 and seven. One.

[B]

Magic's my man. I'm not. You can't see.

[A]

Kyrie was going to be better than met. Kyrie was never going to be better than me.

[B]

Let me ask you a question.

[A]

More skillful. He's the most skillful.

[B]

Okay, that's what I was going to ask you.

[A]

Most. Skill for skill. Skill for skill. I think Kyrie is the most skillful player to ever play. He has the most individual. But that's different than knowing how to deploy all those skills in a way that elevates your whole team every year.

[B]

Yeah. But sometimes you, you, you. Sometimes you deploy certain things because you lack the same. Like when you. When.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's like I. If I only have two choice, I got to play with one of the two. But if I have a toy chest full of toys, then I can play with all of them.

[A]

Luka has more skills on offense than Jaylen Brown. Jaylen Brown is the better player because he doesn't have as many skills on offense. He's forced to play the right way.

[B]

No, all I'm saying is that the injuries, the injury thing has to be baked in.

[A]

Okay. All right, fine. In that case, yeah. Wemby could be the goat.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Could be one day.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's all. Whole show.

[B]

It's a good show.

[A]

We did mail.

[B]

We did mail.

[A]

We did all kinds of stuff.

[B]

I mean, you had some. You're gonna be on fire. Only doing clips of Max today. Some of the stuff you said. I want to stay far away.

[A]

Then you gotta clip you out of the clip. Right.

[B]

Clip me out.

[A]

Right. So take Rich out of the social media clips. He doesn't want it too radioactive.

[B]

Well, you know, listen, you're. You're not popular. You're famous.

[A]

I'm notorious. I have notoriety.

[B]

You might have notoriety because. No, you actually like, though.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At the game, people were coming up to you.

[A]

Yeah, I see.

[B]

Yeah, they were glad.

[A]

Well received at the game.

[B]

Game.

[A]

Because I don't come out of my cave.

[B]

And they listen to the show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is good.

[A]

If you don't tell me, hey, let's go to the game. I don't leave the house.

[B]

Right? Yeah. Right. I got to do that more often. Okay, good. Let's get out of here.

[A]

Max Kellerman, Rich Paul. Game over.

[B]

Game [e-mail] continue to send the emails. As you can see, we are answering them. And know what I want to talk about. Continue to subscribe. What?

[A]

Or maybe Friday or Monday. I want to get into something Bill Simmons said on his pod about who should be the number one overall pick

[B]

in the draft this year.

[A]

He makes a hell of a case. Yep.

[B]

This year.

[A]

Yep. Yep.

[B]

We're going to see. I got to look at that. And we have to go back on our USA because I got something interesting for that man.

[A]

I'm so interested in this Olympic team. There's so much to talk about.

[B]

Grant got a tough job.

[A]

Yes, for sure.

[B]

He has a very tough job.

[A]

For sure.

[B]

Not.

[A]

Not a lot of slots, a lot of good players.

[B]

No. No. Okay. Friday.

[A]

Friday.

[C]

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[A]

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