Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: Franchise Decision-Making, the Thunder’s Dominance, and Ohio Quarterbacks
Date: December 12, 2025 | Host: The Ringer

Episode Overview

In this episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dive into a lively, wide-ranging discussion covering NFL franchise-building (with a focus on the Atlanta Falcons), the Houston Rockets' savvy decisions in the NBA, an in-depth analysis of the Thunder’s dominance and whether it’s good for the league, and a thoughtful conversation about franchise quarterbacks from Ohio—especially Joe Burrow and Shador Sanders. Along the way, they touch on athlete career paths, hidden biases in sports, and the challenge of building dynasties. The episode is filled with inside perspective, barbershop-style banter, and memorable moments for die-hard sports fans.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Atlanta Falcons & Franchise Building

Timestamps: 03:00–07:30

• Max voices frustration with the Falcons’ strategic decisions, questioning their use of high draft picks:
  • "They spent so much draft capital over the last handful of years. A top five pick on a tight end, a top ten pick on a running back." [04:17]
• Rich Paul pushes back, defending the Falcons as stable:
  • "But Atlanta has a great owner. And they have a good coach...I think you'd be a little hard on them." [04:44]
• Debate over draft philosophy—Rich says sometimes you just have to take the best available, even if it doesn’t fit a perfect plan.
• Discussion about Kyle Pitts, his underwhelming production versus his draft status, and whether he’ll stay or leave in free agency, likening it to Saquon Barkley’s time with the Giants.

2. Houston Rockets: Rebuilding Done Right

Timestamps: 07:30–12:00

• Max contrasts Atlanta with the Houston Rockets, praising their patient, smart accumulation and development of talent:
  • "The Rockets are a team that have spent their draft capital wisely...Even if none of them are franchise players, but you go, man, that’s a nice young nucleus." [07:07]
• Rich highlights GM Rafael Stone’s moves and sustained patience:
  • "Raphael Stone has done a really good job of, one, getting the talent and then two, being a little patient...not just taking names or highlight guys." [08:49]
• Strategic decisions: Having the poise to move on from Dillon Brooks to get Kevin Durant back; choosing talents that fit (Sengun, Amen Thompson, Reed Shepherd).
• On coach Ime Udoka's impact:
  • "But the best part about IME is accountability. If you ever watch him coach, he’s holding everybody accountable, and he’s not afraid to go at you." [11:33]
• Rockets’ ceiling if healthy—Max’s "hot take": "If VanVleet comes back…I might be picking the Rockets to go all the way this year." [10:19]

3. Hot Takes, Agent Real Talk & The Super-Sub Dilemma

Timestamps: 12:00–25:00

• Max and Rich address perceptions about Rich being “propaganda” for his own clients/partners; Rich underscores his intent to be authentic and transparent.
  • Rich: "I have to be authentic, right?...I can't get up here and fake the funk. That’s never been me." [15:09]
  • Max: "A super agent giving opinions on sports is interesting." [15:55]
• Discussing Austin Reaves’ role for the Lakers and player acceptance of coming off the bench when it helps the team:
  • "If the best case scenario for your team is for a player at the talent level of Austin Reaves to come off your bench...I don’t think Austin Reaves would have an issue with that." – Rich Paul [13:25]
• Comparison: The "championship sixth-man" (Ginóbili) vs. superstar/franchise (Harden) paths.
  • Max frames the career dilemma: "Does he want the kind of career where he gets his own team, maxes out the money he makes...or does he want to be...[a] player who maybe wins championships?" [21:23]
  • Rich: "If you’re asking me in life, what would I rather do, give me James Harden’s bank. But if you asking me as a basketball player, I want Ginobili's rings." [24:22]

4. The Thunder’s Upsurge, Dynasty Paranoia & Leadership Culture

Timestamps: 25:59–39:14

• Thunder: Now 24-1, Redefining Dominance. Are they the new Warriors? Is their dominance bad for basketball?
  • Max: "People are talking about them as though they’re ruining basketball because they’re so dominant....But let me just put the brakes on that for a second." [26:17]
• Rich: Dynasties and injuries have always been a part of NBA history, so calls for changes are overblown.
  • "That has always been a part of our game. Injuries? Yes." [27:37]
• Thunder’s culture: Focus on Shai Gilgeous-Alexander’s leadership style—making everyone feel important but knowing who to ride in the clutch.
  • Rich: "Shai makes every player on that team feel as if they're important...But when it matters most, we’re going to ride with Shai, period." [28:23]
  • On leadership: “Not only does it help them play their role…in the NBA…the regular season for the guys that they know they’re going to make the playoffs is only about building confidence, perfecting habits, getting camaraderie.” [29:12]
  • On the Warriors comparison: "The Thunder right now, to me, are very much where the Warriors were in 2016...it took that plus...Kevin Durant." – Max [34:08]
• Rich on keeping a winner’s mindset: Story about advice from Joe Dumars (Pistons) on never being stagnant; always working to improve, even after success. [37:34]

5. Ohio Quarterbacks: Joe Burrow & a LeBron Parable

Timestamps: 39:40–46:24

• Joe Burrow: From college legend to NFL star dragging a flawed roster, likened to young LeBron.
  • Max: "He was the quarterback of the greatest college football season ever...then beating Patrick Mahomes to get to the Super Bowl. So I love me some Joe Burrow." [40:21]
  • Rich: "You can't hate...You shouldn't." [40:51]
• Question of franchise patience: When do elite players reach the limit with a dysfunctional supporting cast?
  • Max: "If I stay where I am, I'll never get to the promised land because this franchise won't do what it takes...Burrow seems to me from afar to be doing that right now." [42:17]
  • Rich proposes: "Joe Burrow should go to the Giants!" [42:24]

6. Shador Sanders, Representation, and Racial Dynamics in NFL Quarterbacking

Timestamps: 49:43–61:44

• Shador Sanders (Browns): Fifth-round pick, now a starting QB; inherited competitiveness from Deion but not his speed, and proving doubters wrong:
  • Rich: "What he did inherit is a competitive gene and as a quarterback on the Browns, he cares. He’s handled everything...he’s turned programs...into pop culture-esque environments." [50:27]
  • "I'm happy that Shador's getting the opportunity..." [52:15]
• The challenge of high-profile, Black QBs and persistent coded biases:
  • Max: "Shador, I think, becomes a kind of racial flashpoint...there’s an undercurrent there that is correlated at least to kind of racial tension." [54:08]
  • Rich on player individuality: "We have to stop looking at players the way our school system looks at students. Every kid don't learn the same." [60:07]
• Deion Sanders, as parent and coach, is a generational anomaly: superstar willing to coach, teach, and raise his sons right:
  • "Normally, Deion wouldn’t coach. The level of player that he was, wouldn’t coach. But he cares." [57:49]
• On athlete development and patience: The NFL's obsession with rookie deals doesn’t reflect the reality of most successful QBs’ growth trajectories.
  • Max: "People want to rush through that process. Shador Sanders is a classic example of a quarterback who is showing promise toward the end of his rookie season. And the jury is out." [57:23]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On GM patience:
  • "You just have to wait, wait, wait, wait. And then, boom. We can plug a KD." – Rich Paul on the Rockets, [09:37]
• On Internet discourse:
  • "The Internet is like Arnold Palmer of intelligence and ignorance. So it don't matter, right? You need them both." – Rich Paul [13:08]
• Career dilemma for talented NBA players:
  • "If you’re asking me in life, what would I rather do, give me James Harden’s bank. But if you asking me as a basketball player, I want Ginobili’s rings." – Rich Paul [24:22]
• Thunder culture:
  • "Shai makes every player on that team feel as if they are important...when it matters most, we're gonna ride with Shay, period." – Rich Paul [28:23]
• Leadership lesson:
  • "When you are the guy, you have to decide how you want to lead your guys." – Rich Paul [28:56]
• On racial dynamics in evaluating QBs:
  • "I think there’s a reaction among people who it feels like are entrenched in power and a lot of them are white who say, this guy isn’t good...And I think there's a sense among black people...‘Oh, here we go again.’” – Max Kellerman [54:08]
• On player individuality:
  • "So you want me to fit inside of this silhouette that you have of what this quarterback should be. I'm different...I may not learn by reading something. You get what I'm saying?" – Rich Paul [60:07]

Timestamps of Important Segments

• [03:00–07:30] Falcons franchise debate & draft philosophy
• [07:30–12:00] Rockets' smart rebuild & Udoka's coaching
• [12:00–25:00] Agent perspective, Austin Reaves role, Ginobili/Harden career crossroads
• [25:59–39:14] Thunder’s dominance, league dynasties, and player leadership culture
• [39:40–46:24] Ohio QBs, Burrow as LeBron figure, franchise-player relationships
• [49:43–60:56] Shador Sanders: draft, representation, Deion’s influence, and NFL development

Tone & Atmosphere

Conversational, candid, at times irreverent but routinely deep and personal, the episode combines barbershop debate, insider storytelling, and cultural perspective that cuts beneath clichés. Both Max and Rich are unafraid to challenge each other, swap stories, and mix sports with issues of business, culture, and race—making this essential listening for sports thinkers, not just fans.

End of Summary