Franchise Decision-Making, the Thunder’s Dominance, and Ohio Quarterbacks

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: Franchise Decision-Making, the Thunder’s Dominance, and Ohio Quarterbacks
Date: December 12, 2025 | Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dive into a lively, wide-ranging discussion covering NFL franchise-building (with a focus on the Atlanta Falcons), the Houston Rockets' savvy decisions in the NBA, an in-depth analysis of the Thunder’s dominance and whether it’s good for the league, and a thoughtful conversation about franchise quarterbacks from Ohio—especially Joe Burrow and Shador Sanders. Along the way, they touch on athlete career paths, hidden biases in sports, and the challenge of building dynasties. The episode is filled with inside perspective, barbershop-style banter, and memorable moments for die-hard sports fans.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Atlanta Falcons & Franchise Building

Timestamps: 03:00–07:30

• Max voices frustration with the Falcons’ strategic decisions, questioning their use of high draft picks:
  • "They spent so much draft capital over the last handful of years. A top five pick on a tight end, a top ten pick on a running back." [04:17]
• Rich Paul pushes back, defending the Falcons as stable:
  • "But Atlanta has a great owner. And they have a good coach...I think you'd be a little hard on them." [04:44]
• Debate over draft philosophy—Rich says sometimes you just have to take the best available, even if it doesn’t fit a perfect plan.
• Discussion about Kyle Pitts, his underwhelming production versus his draft status, and whether he’ll stay or leave in free agency, likening it to Saquon Barkley’s time with the Giants.

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2. Houston Rockets: Rebuilding Done Right

Timestamps: 07:30–12:00

• Max contrasts Atlanta with the Houston Rockets, praising their patient, smart accumulation and development of talent:
  • "The Rockets are a team that have spent their draft capital wisely...Even if none of them are franchise players, but you go, man, that’s a nice young nucleus." [07:07]
• Rich highlights GM Rafael Stone’s moves and sustained patience:
  • "Raphael Stone has done a really good job of, one, getting the talent and then two, being a little patient...not just taking names or highlight guys." [08:49]
• Strategic decisions: Having the poise to move on from Dillon Brooks to get Kevin Durant back; choosing talents that fit (Sengun, Amen Thompson, Reed Shepherd).
• On coach Ime Udoka's impact:
  • "But the best part about IME is accountability. If you ever watch him coach, he’s holding everybody accountable, and he’s not afraid to go at you." [11:33]
• Rockets’ ceiling if healthy—Max’s "hot take": "If VanVleet comes back…I might be picking the Rockets to go all the way this year." [10:19]

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3. Hot Takes, Agent Real Talk & The Super-Sub Dilemma

Timestamps: 12:00–25:00

• Max and Rich address perceptions about Rich being “propaganda” for his own clients/partners; Rich underscores his intent to be authentic and transparent.
  • Rich: "I have to be authentic, right?...I can't get up here and fake the funk. That’s never been me." [15:09]
  • Max: "A super agent giving opinions on sports is interesting." [15:55]
• Discussing Austin Reaves’ role for the Lakers and player acceptance of coming off the bench when it helps the team:
  • "If the best case scenario for your team is for a player at the talent level of Austin Reaves to come off your bench...I don’t think Austin Reaves would have an issue with that." – Rich Paul [13:25]
• Comparison: The "championship sixth-man" (Ginóbili) vs. superstar/franchise (Harden) paths.
  • Max frames the career dilemma: "Does he want the kind of career where he gets his own team, maxes out the money he makes...or does he want to be...[a] player who maybe wins championships?" [21:23]
  • Rich: "If you’re asking me in life, what would I rather do, give me James Harden’s bank. But if you asking me as a basketball player, I want Ginobili's rings." [24:22]

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4. The Thunder’s Upsurge, Dynasty Paranoia & Leadership Culture

Timestamps: 25:59–39:14

• Thunder: Now 24-1, Redefining Dominance. Are they the new Warriors? Is their dominance bad for basketball?
  • Max: "People are talking about them as though they’re ruining basketball because they’re so dominant....But let me just put the brakes on that for a second." [26:17]
• Rich: Dynasties and injuries have always been a part of NBA history, so calls for changes are overblown.
  • "That has always been a part of our game. Injuries? Yes." [27:37]
• Thunder’s culture: Focus on Shai Gilgeous-Alexander’s leadership style—making everyone feel important but knowing who to ride in the clutch.
  • Rich: "Shai makes every player on that team feel as if they're important...But when it matters most, we’re going to ride with Shai, period." [28:23]
  • On leadership: “Not only does it help them play their role…in the NBA…the regular season for the guys that they know they’re going to make the playoffs is only about building confidence, perfecting habits, getting camaraderie.” [29:12]
  • On the Warriors comparison: "The Thunder right now, to me, are very much where the Warriors were in 2016...it took that plus...Kevin Durant." – Max [34:08]
• Rich on keeping a winner’s mindset: Story about advice from Joe Dumars (Pistons) on never being stagnant; always working to improve, even after success. [37:34]

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5. Ohio Quarterbacks: Joe Burrow & a LeBron Parable

Timestamps: 39:40–46:24

• Joe Burrow: From college legend to NFL star dragging a flawed roster, likened to young LeBron.
  • Max: "He was the quarterback of the greatest college football season ever...then beating Patrick Mahomes to get to the Super Bowl. So I love me some Joe Burrow." [40:21]
  • Rich: "You can't hate...You shouldn't." [40:51]
• Question of franchise patience: When do elite players reach the limit with a dysfunctional supporting cast?
  • Max: "If I stay where I am, I'll never get to the promised land because this franchise won't do what it takes...Burrow seems to me from afar to be doing that right now." [42:17]
  • Rich proposes: "Joe Burrow should go to the Giants!" [42:24]

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6. Shador Sanders, Representation, and Racial Dynamics in NFL Quarterbacking

Timestamps: 49:43–61:44

• Shador Sanders (Browns): Fifth-round pick, now a starting QB; inherited competitiveness from Deion but not his speed, and proving doubters wrong:
  • Rich: "What he did inherit is a competitive gene and as a quarterback on the Browns, he cares. He’s handled everything...he’s turned programs...into pop culture-esque environments." [50:27]
  • "I'm happy that Shador's getting the opportunity..." [52:15]
• The challenge of high-profile, Black QBs and persistent coded biases:
  • Max: "Shador, I think, becomes a kind of racial flashpoint...there’s an undercurrent there that is correlated at least to kind of racial tension." [54:08]
  • Rich on player individuality: "We have to stop looking at players the way our school system looks at students. Every kid don't learn the same." [60:07]
• Deion Sanders, as parent and coach, is a generational anomaly: superstar willing to coach, teach, and raise his sons right:
  • "Normally, Deion wouldn’t coach. The level of player that he was, wouldn’t coach. But he cares." [57:49]
• On athlete development and patience: The NFL's obsession with rookie deals doesn’t reflect the reality of most successful QBs’ growth trajectories.
  • Max: "People want to rush through that process. Shador Sanders is a classic example of a quarterback who is showing promise toward the end of his rookie season. And the jury is out." [57:23]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On GM patience:
  • "You just have to wait, wait, wait, wait. And then, boom. We can plug a KD." – Rich Paul on the Rockets, [09:37]
• On Internet discourse:
  • "The Internet is like Arnold Palmer of intelligence and ignorance. So it don't matter, right? You need them both." – Rich Paul [13:08]
• Career dilemma for talented NBA players:
  • "If you’re asking me in life, what would I rather do, give me James Harden’s bank. But if you asking me as a basketball player, I want Ginobili’s rings." – Rich Paul [24:22]
• Thunder culture:
  • "Shai makes every player on that team feel as if they are important...when it matters most, we're gonna ride with Shay, period." – Rich Paul [28:23]
• Leadership lesson:
  • "When you are the guy, you have to decide how you want to lead your guys." – Rich Paul [28:56]
• On racial dynamics in evaluating QBs:
  • "I think there’s a reaction among people who it feels like are entrenched in power and a lot of them are white who say, this guy isn’t good...And I think there's a sense among black people...‘Oh, here we go again.’” – Max Kellerman [54:08]
• On player individuality:
  • "So you want me to fit inside of this silhouette that you have of what this quarterback should be. I'm different...I may not learn by reading something. You get what I'm saying?" – Rich Paul [60:07]

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• [03:00–07:30] Falcons franchise debate & draft philosophy
• [07:30–12:00] Rockets' smart rebuild & Udoka's coaching
• [12:00–25:00] Agent perspective, Austin Reaves role, Ginobili/Harden career crossroads
• [25:59–39:14] Thunder’s dominance, league dynasties, and player leadership culture
• [39:40–46:24] Ohio QBs, Burrow as LeBron figure, franchise-player relationships
• [49:43–60:56] Shador Sanders: draft, representation, Deion’s influence, and NFL development

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Tone & Atmosphere

Conversational, candid, at times irreverent but routinely deep and personal, the episode combines barbershop debate, insider storytelling, and cultural perspective that cuts beneath clichés. Both Max and Rich are unafraid to challenge each other, swap stories, and mix sports with issues of business, culture, and race—making this essential listening for sports thinkers, not just fans.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Host/Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Salty Cheezy. Cheez It Crackers. Should this whole podcast just be me eating Cheez It? That would be a top notch podcast. You could hear them crunching in my mouth. You could think about how salty and savory and delicious they are. You could just get Cheez it on the brain. Oh, man, those Cheez it cravings, they get you. Anyway, what was I talking about?

[Rich Paul]

Oh, yeah.

[Host/Announcer]

Oh, Cheez It.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Host/Announcer]

Cheez It Crackers. Go check them out.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. Crazy Thursday night game last night. I got something to say about the Falcons.

[Rich Paul]

Max, you ever been to a Baptist church?

[Max Kellerman]

No, I have not been in a Baptist church, actually.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I have.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. I'm not a religious man.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah. But when you're young. I grew up. My aunt was like on the all pew team at the church. That's like all NBA of churchgoers. And I'm telling you, she played every role. Every role.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

Valet, fundraising. I mean, Sunday school teacher. I used to be in church from like 8 in the morning to 8 at night. I would love for you to go one day.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, how. Where did. What is this apropos?

[Rich Paul]

No, I was just thinking about it. I wanted to ask you that because I was traumatized by the red juice and cookies from being in church for so long as a kid.

[Max Kellerman]

And that's on your brain for some reason right now?

[Rich Paul]

For some reason.

[Max Kellerman]

Atlanta Falcons. And you thought Baptist church.

[Rich Paul]

There's a lot of Baptist churches in Atlanta.

[Max Kellerman]

In Atlanta, that's for sure. I think the Falcons. Falcons. Let's. I'll start with the Falcons. They, by the way, great game. Great comeback win. But Falcons, Right. And then the NBA game that I thought was the most interesting last night was the Rockets. Can we do Falcons? And then Rockets.

[Rich Paul]

Rockets.

[Max Kellerman]

They squeaked by the Clippers, but I got stuck.

[Rich Paul]

That was a close game.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, it was.

[Rich Paul]

I thought something happened at the end. I didn't. They couldn't get the ball out of bounds.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, the point I want to make about the Rockets is a little different, but I'm curious.

[Rich Paul]

Inbounds.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm sorry. Yeah. To say what? To see what you have to say about that. Now we have a couple. I know you want to talk Shador, Right? But let's. What's that? Yeah. No, I didn't. I didn't wear a watch today. Let's talk Thunder. I want to go from Rockets to Thunder. Let's stay on the NBA. Let's stay on the NBA.

[Rich Paul]

Just. You can. Where's my eraser? I'll just make this a dollar sign because the thunder is money.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. There you go. Look at that thinking on your feet. That's a high school quarterback right there. Joe Burrow. I want to talk Burrow.

[Rich Paul]

Cool Joe.

[Max Kellerman]

I love me some Joe Burrow. But this is related to LeBron, and I want to see what you think. And even Kobe. I want to see what you think about that. Now let's talk Shador. We're in Joe Burrow, right? So we're in Ohio. Let's stay there with Shador.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just going to put a clock for Shador.

[Max Kellerman]

It's a matter of time.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you putting all the numbers in Shador, baby.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

What are you talking about?

[Max Kellerman]

I think that's a show, man. That's a lot of topics already. You're good with this?

[Rich Paul]

I'm good. Let's go.

[Max Kellerman]

Let's take him to church. Game over is presented by fanduel. Fanduel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com/game over to get started. 21 and over and present in select states or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. call 1-888-789-7777 or 7. Visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. Rich, I'm watching Thursday Night Football last night, and it was wild. Like, as usual, the NFL gives you a very entertaining product. And the Bucks are collapsing. I get it. And the Falcons win. And finally, Kyle Pitts has a big game. Right? And all I could think about. I kept hearing your voice ringing in my ears about, you know, where Lamar Jackson should go? Atlanta. And it made some sense when I heard it the first time I said I could see that. But the more I thought about it last night, the more I thought, man, this is just a dysfunctional franchise. They spent so much draft capital over the last handful of years. A top five. A top five pick on a tight end, a top ten pick on a running back.

[Rich Paul]

I don't think. You think Atlanta's a dis. I don't think so.

[Max Kellerman]

I think both. They have a losing record every year.

[Rich Paul]

But Atlanta has a great owner.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

And they have a good coach.

[Max Kellerman]

Never.

[Rich Paul]

I think that's. I think you'd be a little Hard on the.

[Max Kellerman]

If you use a top five pick on a tight end and a top ten pick on a running back and then sign those guys are good players and then sign a middle of the pack quarterback to a franchise level deal and then turn around and draft another guy who's a bit of a project and creates a competition and the veterans like wait, what's going on to be your quarterback? Like think about this. Kyle Pitts. Pitts catches three touchdown passes, right. And it has not worked. His draft position versus his productivity, what.

[Rich Paul]

Was he drafted for?

[Max Kellerman]

Overall has not worked out and now he's looking at free agency. So they are likely to lose him.

[Rich Paul]

Do you think they'll resign him? I don't.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean if I'm the Chiefs or if I'm the Patriots, if I think he can really play if he carries this momentum, I have to think about that. Right? It's like the Giants with Saquon Barkley. They draft him second overall. He has 2,000 yards from scrimmage as a rookie, 15 touchdowns, Barry Sanders highlights. And in other words, like even though it's hurt a lot, it's working out and then he, and then they finally he just signs with the Eagles and they get nothing back for him. That's likely to happen with Pitts and the Falcons. But yeah, go ahead.

[Rich Paul]

But I'm saying in those scenarios a lot happens in that you have obviously the money, the financial portion of it is probably the biggest hurdle. Definitely in Saquon's case they had to make a decision. But I just don't think that the Falcons are dysfunctional. I think that sometimes, like in the draft, you can't help who's there in terms of you have to take the best player there in terms of your need.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't think.

[Rich Paul]

But I think they hit on Pitts and I think they hit on Bijan.

[Max Kellerman]

But even if that's the point about Pittsburgh, they hit on Bijan obviously, but that's the point about Pitts is you. If like I don't think most people would say they did hit on Pitts, but let's say it turns out that this is not an illusion, it's not a mirage and he does this for the rest of the season. Even if you think they hit on Pitts, but it took him this many seasons to really get in the groove of things, you are likely then to lose him. You didn't get the productivity. You wasted the draft pick. He's going somewhere else. But the reason I bring up Atlanta as dysfunctional is because I also the basketball that I really. That I watched from yesterday was the Rockets and Clippers. And the Rockets squeak by a bag. Clippers team squeak by. But I thought to myself, but you know what? That's a really good franchise. The Rockets are a team that have spent their draft capital wisely. Like, if you look at Amen Thompson, if you look at Reed shepherd, if you look at Jabari Smith, right. If you just had that as a nucleus of young players that you used good draft capital on, even if none of them are franchise players, but you go, man, that's a nice young nucleus. And then you add Sengun and kd.

[Rich Paul]

Well, Sengun was a part of their draft class.

[Max Kellerman]

They drafted it.

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm saying. I'm saying. But if you just ignore their two best players and look at the other guys, the other guys are good.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I think. Now, I agree with you. I disagree on the dysfunctional of the Falcons. I disagree with that. On this. I agree. Raphael Stone has done a really good job of, one, getting the talent and then two, I mean, he had to make a tough decision last year. I don't think he necessarily wanted to part ways with, like, a Dillon Brooks because Dillon Brooks anchors defensively. He brings this energy, this tenacity that you need to win games. But he had to make a choice. All right, so Dylan had to go because you're getting Kevin Durant back. Obviously, he would have loved to keep Dylan and Kevin Durant. But then when you look at from Fertitta to Raphael and what they've been able to do. One, be a little patient, right?

[Max Kellerman]

That's exactly right.

[Rich Paul]

Be a little patient. Two, okay, we're going to take guys, but we're going to. We're not going to just take names or we're not going to just take highlight guys. We're going to take guys that we think kind of fit in where we're trying to go. So you get a guy like a Sagun, then you identify. Oh, Sagan can actually do more than what we thought he could do.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. That turned out better than you could have hoped.

[Rich Paul]

Right. So then you start putting pieces around. I'm in. Right. What he brings to the table, night in and night out, he wreaks havoc. Havoc. And he can.

[Max Kellerman]

Defensive superstar.

[Rich Paul]

And he can do a lot more offensively than you think. Those guys, those Thompson guys, they're smart basketball players.

[Max Kellerman]

Even a guy like a Kogi or someone like that, that's like a good piece.

[Rich Paul]

You get a Kogi who knows his role.

[Max Kellerman]

And by the way, now with all These guys, he's hitting. He's hitting shots because you gotta leave him alone.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, well, he was a good. He was a first round pick coming out. But I agree in terms of what you're saying. But when you think about that, the patience that it takes and then being able to draft some of these guys and then convincing those guys how important it is to play a role. So now when you get an opportunity to, you know, you just have to wait, wait, wait, wait. And then, boom. We can plug a kd. Now, unfortunately, Fred went down.

[Max Kellerman]

That's. Listen, if Van Vliet were coming back this year at some point, how you.

[Rich Paul]

Know he's not coming back?

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know. Like, if he does. Okay, let's say this. If Van Vliet comes back, I'd have to see what it looks like. But I might be picking the Rockets to go all the way this year. I think the Rockets, by the time. If they're healthy, if they were fully healthy with Van Vliet by the time the playoffs came around, that is a lot. That's a lot.

[Rich Paul]

Well, two things are happening right now. Shepherd is getting an opportunity to play, build confidence. Right. He can really shoot the ball. We've seen some bright spots there. But if you can get a Fred back, that gives you that championship poise. Cause the regular season and the playoffs was two different seasons.

[Max Kellerman]

You start Van Vliet, if he came back. Yeah, I think I might. I mean, he'd be on the floor at the end of the game, but I might as a six man, just heat it up. Six man, that's a. Like they have everything at that point.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I think, again, starting. Yes. My answer to starting VanVleet is yes, you start VanVleet. But nevertheless, how you manage a game, IME understands how you manage.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, I didn't even mention that a champion like you have, the coach is a huge thing. I didn't even mention it.

[Rich Paul]

But the best part about IME is accountability. If you ever watch him coach, he is holding everybody accountable and he's not afraid to go at you. He was a player, those type of guys. And not only he was a role player, when he played, he came from the spurs, obviously. I think he played for Portland as well. But when you take what he was as a player and you implement that into a coach, those guys become the best coaches.

[Max Kellerman]

So I know one of the things that we're gonna do eventually is you're gonna hose down some hot takes on this show, because I know you've been.

[Rich Paul]

I have to have my fireman suit.

[Max Kellerman]

We'll get to the fireman suit. But you've been spending years. Now, you consume a lot of sports media, and you are privy to information that others aren't. And you have extraordinary powers of analysis, especially in basketball. Right. Like. And you know these players in ways that other people don't. So you're able to predict success for certain players better than most.

[Rich Paul]

So you just described why we decided to do the show.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, for sure. And so what's funny to me is how many people think that you're here to do propaganda. By the way, I'm sure you will do some propaganda. If I think you're doing it, I'm gonna call you out about it. But I read something like Lakers fans were reacting to you saying that Austin Reaves should come off the bench. I was the one who said Austin Reeves should come off the bench.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you said that.

[Max Kellerman]

I said that he should be like Ginobili or someone, Right?

[Rich Paul]

Well, again, if you're talking having a championship, see, I think people don't understand. And look, you need that, right? You need people just flying off the handle. But the Internet is like Arnold Palmer of intelligence and ignorance. So it don't matter, Right. You need them both.

[Max Kellerman]

Good mix.

[Rich Paul]

But what I would say is, if you have a championship team and the best case scenario for your team is for a player at the talent level of a Austin Reaves to come off your bench. I don't think Austin Reaves would have an issue with that.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what? I want to take a. I was going to. About to say, would you hose down my hot take? The reason I said, hey, you do the, you know, we'll do the fireman thing with you is if I said if the Rockets are fully healthy, they're going to win the chip this year because of okc, right? Being so dominant. That's a hot take. Would you hose that down?

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm putting lighter fluid on that. And I'll tell you why. Because you have IME championship coach Fred championship.

[Max Kellerman]

Like playmaking ball handler Kevin Durant, one of the greatest players who ever lived. And you have youth at the highest level in Shenghoon.

[Rich Paul]

And then you have. I'm doubling up on Sengun because he's a matchup problem.

[Max Kellerman]

Are we saying Sengun or Sengun?

[Rich Paul]

I'll just say really good player. All right, that's what I'll say. Really good player, right?

[Max Kellerman]

Really, really good. Really good player.

[Rich Paul]

The guy that's really good that's not named Kevin Durant.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Really good.

[Rich Paul]

Fine. So when you have that. Now this is what people don't understand. Obviously. I have partnerships with all teams and I'm never gonna say something on our show that I wouldn't say to them. But also what I'm not gonna do is I can't lie to our subscribers. I can't get up here and fake the funk. That's never been me. I have to be authentic, right?

[Max Kellerman]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

So people look at me and say, oh, Rich is an agent. I heard some. A player or something say, oh, it's weird for Rich to talk like that.

[Max Kellerman]

That was actually. That was. I'll shout him out. Kenyon Martin and I thought it's weird.

[Rich Paul]

For him to think like that.

[Max Kellerman]

No, but he was not being negative. If you listen to what Kenyon Martin said, they have a device on the show. And I'm forgetting if it was. But it was basically like good or bad, right? Hot or not?

[Rich Paul]

Whatever it is. No, it was something like, are you. Is he. Yeah, but that's buying it. Whatever. Yeah, right.

[Max Kellerman]

Buy or sell, right? And he refused to say. Cuz he said it's neither. It's interesting. That is not negative.

[Rich Paul]

I don't think Kenya would be negative.

[Max Kellerman]

But he would. He's right. Like, one of the reasons I was interested in this is because it, to me, it is interesting. Like a super agent giving opinions on sports is interesting.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, so what? So basically what everyone is saying is most agents don't know basketball.

[Max Kellerman]

Is that a fact?

[Rich Paul]

That's what the reaction is saying. Because if you're a basketball agent and you don't know basketball, then how the hell could you be a. What are you doing then? Then you might as well just be a loan officer in that case. Like what?

[Max Kellerman]

No, but he's saying. I think the reason Kenyon Martin felt that way, that it's interesting. Like I want it. Like, I don't think he was being critical. He's being critical. But here's the thing. He's using his critical thinking. But he's saying it's interesting because how do you thread that needle? Is what he's saying.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but it's interesting because here's what people do People expect me, because LeBron is on the Lakers, to only glaze a situation. Right, but you don't know me.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I know you, so that's why I wanted to do this.

[Rich Paul]

But here's what I'm saying. LeBron wouldn't tell you that. J.J. redick wouldn't tell you that. Rob Pelinka wouldn't tell you that. Now, don't get me wrong, like, okay, some things probably shouldn't be said, this and that. But we're doing a show and we're talking basketball and football. No different than last year when I was on the Pat McAfee show and we talked about certain things in the playoffs. I was very clear where I said a role player cannot get a technical file in the playoffs. In the first quarter, you cannot do that. We're trying to win a series and we're fighting for our lives. Again. Going back to.

[Max Kellerman]

It's a sports opinion from a very educated, privileged point of view. Because you have information other people don't.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but it's not just information. The other I word. I also have insight. Right. This is not nobody telling me what to say or planting seeds or anything like that. No. I'm my own man and I'm gonna. If I commit to do a show with Max Kellerman and we get the ringer and we got Jacoby produce these, are we gonna. You see, I'm gonna come here. First of all, I have a day job. You know what I did this morning? I got up and made my phone calls, did my pushups. Of course.

[Max Kellerman]

How many push ups you do in a day?

[Rich Paul]

I do a sets of 50 and I also.

[Max Kellerman]

How many I'm saying at the end. Cause I remember when I was probably.

[Rich Paul]

Do anywhere between three to five hundred pushups a day.

[Max Kellerman]

You might be too young to remember the article. An article came out about Herschel Walker that he does a thousand pushups a day.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not comparing myself, but I'm saying.

[Max Kellerman]

Everyone I knew was like, oh, how many pushups? Like trying to get to a thousand.

[Rich Paul]

Let me tell you something. One time we was at the headquarters at Nike and I met Bo Jackson. Yeah. And Bo Jackson shook my hand. I'm telling you right now, I think he fractured my hand when he shook it.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, there's some athletes like that. You shake their hand and it's like the old Flintstones thing where they get you up and down.

[Rich Paul]

And I was working on my backswing. You had to stretch for that. But nevertheless, no. It's like I have to be authentic and I have insight on the game. So again, that's not a knock to anything. That's just given. Now when you talk about the weird aspect of it. Yes. Has there ever been somebody in my position to have a platform and to be doing a podcast? You talking. Yeah, but that's just. You can say it's abnormal. Right. You could be annoyed or you could be enamored. That's a you problem, that's not a me problem. So either whichever one you want to do, great. All I'm trying to do is give perspective and insight and you decided to do the show with me and somebody decided that it makes sense or we wouldn't be here with the ringer and Spotify. So let's just do a great show.

[Max Kellerman]

So along those lines. Cause you got blamed for me saying Austin Reaves in a perfect world, not on this Lakers team, in a perfect world is Manu Ginobili. Right. I was thinking, wait a minute.

[Rich Paul]

That is the ultimate. Do you know the player that Manu Ginobili was?

[Max Kellerman]

Well, this is what I'm getting to. Another thought I had before we move on, another thought I had watching the game last night. Watching James Harden is like in Harden you have a guy who, one of.

[Rich Paul]

The best two guards to ever play.

[Max Kellerman]

This game, who has a style of play. And I was thinking about Ginobili because two left handed guards, both six men originally. One guy stays a six man and wins multiple championships. The other guy gets his own team basically and teams and runs offenses. Who would you rather be? And that's Austin Reaves has a choice to make and the fact that they're around the same height, they're both left handed, they did certain things similar, but their careers took very different paths. I think most people, if they were in that situation would choose James Harden's route even though it didn't result in championships because you make so much more money and you're perceived as much better. Most people perceive Harden as way above Ginobili, whether or not that's true. So the incentives are there to encourage players. Like the reason I bring it up is because Austin Reaves will face a decision soon. Right. Does he want the kind of career where he gets his own team, maxes out the money he makes, but if that happens, maybe doesn't win a championship ever? Or does he want to be the kind of player who's used in a role for which he's probably overqualified but maybe wins championships?

[Rich Paul]

James, I think James would have embraced the six man row. It wasn't his fault. He didn't asked to leave.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

He actually played the same role as Ginobili and he played it very well. And that Thunder team was really good. K.D. russ, James Aaka.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, it was crazy big perk. But Daryl Morey identified him as a guy who could run the whole show.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but, but, but that was because the they chose not to Pay originally. Like, it wasn't. Like, it wasn't like James was like, I want to leave.

[Max Kellerman]

But even if you choose, even if the team chooses to pay rich, we both know you will never make the money as a sixth man that you will make as the franchise, 100%.

[Rich Paul]

So you're saying, would I rather have the money and the stature of a James Harden and have my own team versus five rings in Ginobili?

[Max Kellerman]

Right. Wait, did he get wind up with five? Was he there for all five? No, he wasn't there for all five.

[Rich Paul]

Well, four. He wasn't there in 99, but he was there the rest of the way. Let me get back to you on that one. Because.

[Max Kellerman]

Because as an agent, you would see if you're as rich plus agent.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, I got it.

[Max Kellerman]

You're advising a guy like, I won't use Austin Reaves. Exactly. But how could you possibly tell him, take half the career earnings and not be perceived for as great as you actually are instead of win championship?

[Rich Paul]

It's such a unflair, unfair intersection of being an athlete. And let me tell you why. Because you grow up as an athlete. And this is. This is another issue, because this is why youth sports is broken in America. Youth sports is definitely broken in America, but we're going to save that.

[Max Kellerman]

I think that's an uncontroversial take.

[Rich Paul]

But. But it's such an interesting intersection because you grow up that Wheatie box. Champion. You want to be a champion. They teach you to be a champion. How important winning is. Right. But then there's a world where you see guys that have won championships pawn their rings because they can't pay their bills. And so if you're asking me in life, what would I rather do, give me James Harden's bank. Right. But if you asking me as a basketball player, I want Ginobili's rings.

[Max Kellerman]

That's what I'm saying. Yes. And that's. So they're perverse in some ways.

[Rich Paul]

But 10 things can be true. I don't think you had to choose one or the other two things to be true.

[Max Kellerman]

If you're Austin Reaves, you do have to choose.

[Rich Paul]

Listen, I think Austin Reaves can do both. I think Austin Reaves can get paid a whole lot of money, keep his platform, stay next to a guy like Luka, and with an organization that drafted him and developed him, as long as it's not, like, drastic. Yeah. And he's good enough to do just that. But at the same time, if this business teaches you nothing else, it teaches you that it's a business.

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[Max Kellerman]

So I wanted now I want to get back to the that was a little tangent, but I wanted to talk about the Thunder today too, because 24 and one now and I said and my hot take would be if the Rockets were fully healthy. As long as it looks the way I think it would look, I think I would pick them.

[Rich Paul]

Are they the biggest contender to this year?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but the thunder are 24 and 1 and people are talking about them as though they're ruining basketball because they're so dominant and usually playing basketball is wild. Usually. That's the, that's where the argument stops. Now. The, the punditry is, you know, the, the pundits say about that stuff. I think either dynasties are good for the game or dynasties are bad for the game. But let me just put the brakes on that for a second. Here's my take. Okay, who's the Thunder are really good and they're going to get better because Presti is so good. He's got crazy draft capital. Also, the Thunder beat a Nuggets team without Aaron Gordon, who was the difference in making that Nuggets team go from dangerous to crazy good. Then that's in seven games. Then in game seven in the finals, in a close game, the best player on the other team, Halliburton, goes down and then the Thunder pull away and win. There's no guarantee that given the health of the other Teams, they would have even won last year. And what I'm saying now is if the Rockets are at full strength, I don't know that the Thunder win this year.

[Rich Paul]

Max, we have to stop this. Yep. I'm gonna tell you why.

[Max Kellerman]

Stop what?

[Rich Paul]

That has always been a part of our game. What?

[Max Kellerman]

Injuries.

[Rich Paul]

Injuries? Yes. When Isaiah twisted his ankle in the finals against the Lakers.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

The Lakers won that series. Right. Sure. Nobody threw a pity party for the.

[Max Kellerman]

For the Pistons, but it also wasn't break up the Lakers.

[Rich Paul]

No, but what I'm saying is with a healthy Isaiah, who knows the Pistons stands a better chance to win. Here's another example. Kyrie and Kevin Love went down in 2015.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

Kyrie and Kevin Love went down. The warriors won.

[Max Kellerman]

But Rich, that's what I'm saying. People are comparing this Thunder team to those warriors teams.

[Rich Paul]

I think this. I think it's a little too soon for that. But also we have to stop always wanting the popular teams to be good.

[Max Kellerman]

No, you mean the big market teams.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Give Sam Prezzy his credit. Give Shai his credit. Because you know why? Shai makes every player on that team feel as if they are important on that team.

[Max Kellerman]

I've heard you talk about this before.

[Rich Paul]

And you know what? Every player on that team does understands that when it matters most, we're going to ride with Shay, period.

[Max Kellerman]

I've heard. Could you. Before we go on, I want you to talk a little bit more about that so people can hear. Because you and I have had conversations about certain players who make the other guys feel important and what that does for the team.

[Rich Paul]

Well, that's. Here's the thing that's in basketball, that's in leadership. When you are the guy, you have to decide how you want to lead your guys. This is just a fact.

[Max Kellerman]

And that helps the people play their roles.

[Rich Paul]

That helps the people. Not only does it help them play their role in the NBA, you know what the regular season is for. The regular season for the guys that they know they're going to make the playoffs is only about building confidence, perfecting habits, things of that nature. Right. Getting a rhythm, getting camaraderie, that's all. Those things are important. Yeah. Well, a seeding don't matter. Do you remember the year that I think Atlanta was number one and the Cavs swept them?

[Max Kellerman]

Yep. First round.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. The seeding thing, Great. But again, when you talk about the best players and how they lead, if you ask any general manager, what would they rather have they would tell you over a guy scoring 50 a night? I'd rather have a guy that I don't have to do the job of leading the team. I remember before the bubble, I was talking to LJ and I said to him, I said, bron, you know, going into this bubble, you're going to have to lead this team different. And he was like, what are you talking about? I was like, in the bubble, body language and things like that means even more. Because now you're in the bubble, you're away from your family, your kids, your wives. And so what could be nothing in LA or in Boston or in Miami or in D.C. at a game in the arena means a whole lot more in that bubble. So this whole thing is about mental warfare. It's not necessarily about only the basketball play because you're so isolated and the world is so every little thing gets.

[Max Kellerman]

Magnified, every little thing amplified.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And I remember having a con, like when you are a star player, if I know I can take the last shot every time. Okay, we playing. Let's just say we playing Sacramento on a Tuesday night. I may not have it going tonight, but this guy does. It's the last shot. I may give him the ball if he makes. If he. And I told a player that I once represented this because he had a little issue, and it was a little issue with the teammates actually buying into him. And, you know, he needed to develop his skillset from that perspective. Because when you're a star player, and it's not just about stats, you have to be willing to do all of these other things. That's why being the face of the league is a real job.

[Max Kellerman]

That's a whole other face of the league. We can do another.

[Rich Paul]

But here's what I'm saying. I want to get to this point.

[Max Kellerman]

That's a big topic.

[Rich Paul]

But what I said to them, I said, pass the ball game winning moment. If your guy makes it, you get on the podium and you say, you know what? I trust my teammates. If your guy misses it, you get on that podium and you still say, I trust my teammates next time. And guess what? If I get in that position again, I'm going to give it to him again. That makes a guy run through a brick wall. So run through a brick wall. So going back to Shay, Shay is happy to see Aaron Wiggins. Do you know Isaiah Joe was on the Sixers? He was released. They picked him up off waivers. Do you watch Isaiah Joe play? Yeah. You see how he makes shots consecutively? A lot of this stuff is just about these young players getting an opportunity and Then when that opportunity comes, that organization actually believed it, by the way.

[Max Kellerman]

So, Shay Lee, I want to do the Thunder warriors thing for a second. Because Steph also created a situation where you could plug in players and they're gonna get better. Cause they're playing with Steph. Right. For maybe other reasons than Shay, but still. But the Thunder do remind me a lot of the warriors, because The warriors in 2015 won the championship, but were the second best team in basketball. It was very obvious. Very obvious.

[Rich Paul]

Who do you think the key to the Thunder is? What player is the most?

[Max Kellerman]

No, who's the key to the Thunder?

[Rich Paul]

Lou Dort. Because you know what you're getting from Shay, right?

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, you're saying the swing player, how they play defense.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

But hold on. Let me stay with the Thunder warriors comparison for a second. The Cavs don't have Kyrie or Kevin Love, And Dellavedova is LeBron's second best player.

[Rich Paul]

Played out of his mind.

[Max Kellerman]

And it still goes six games. At the end of that series, it was clear to me as a basketball fan that at full strength, the warriors were the second best team in basketball. Not the best team in basketball, but they won the championship. They took advantage of the fact that the Cavs got hurt. The next year, the warriors set the record for wins in the regular season and did not win the championship because once again, the Cavs were the best team in basketball. Okay. And I thought at that time that your guy, that LeBron James was worth twice what any other superstar was worth. And I think the league agreed with that because Kevin Durant went to the Warriors. It's really a compliment to your guy because they're saying they're looking over at LeBron and going, we can't do it. And KD's thinking, Me neither. Let's get together. And that put them over the top. I bring all of this up to make the following point. The warriors, to me, are very much. Sorry. The Thunder right now, to me, are very much where the warriors were in 2016. Coming out of 15, they have this incredible record, just like the warriors did in 2016. They're coming off a championship, just like the warriors did in 2015. In that championship, they were fortunate that key players on the other team were unavailable. It's not that they were hurting. It's that they weren't on the court in consecutive series, which, to me, maybe they went out anyway, but maybe they don't. Okay. So very similar to the Warriors. Remember, the warriors lost in 16 and had to acquire Kevin Durant to go on that monster run where they just crushed everybody. So I think the comparisons to The warriors are apt. And I think that people forget that the warriors didn't just take over basketball as they were constructed in 15 and 16. It took that plus the addition of one of the greatest players ever in his prime to give us the impression we now have of those Warriors. In other words, what I'm saying is the argument seems to be whether dynasties are good or bad for basketball. And I'm saying it is far from certain that this Thunder team is a dynasty.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I'll say this. I'm not mad at the warriors going to get Kevin Durant, because that's a mindset, right? People always look at the player and say, oh, they should have won. But, yeah, it takes two to tangle. You can only win with what the front office and the ownership group allows you to play alongside of. So in that case, if you know Joe Lacob, who's my guy? Joe Lacob's mindset is he wants to win every. He wants to win preseason game, he wants to win summer league game, he wants to win every playoff game. I want that guy, Bob Myers, he also wants to win. So you know what? Yeah. This is chess. It's not checkers. Go and get Kevin Durant. And guess what? If they could have got Kevin Durant and whoever else, they would have. So now the.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm not complaining about that. I'm just pointing out without that move, we don't think of the warriors the same way. And this Thunder team is the pre Durant Warriors.

[Rich Paul]

And I can guarantee you, who were.

[Max Kellerman]

Kind of lucky to even win one.

[Rich Paul]

Championship, I can guarantee you Sam Presti is not sitting on his hands.

[Max Kellerman]

I see what you're saying.

[Rich Paul]

At 23.

[Max Kellerman]

1, and they got crazy draft capital.

[Rich Paul]

At 23 1, I can guarantee you that Sam Presti is not satisfied.

[Max Kellerman]

So the Thunder really are the Warriors?

[Rich Paul]

Well, they're the. But again, we don't want to put the buggy before the horse. They've won one championship. Let's see what happens.

[Max Kellerman]

The Thunderbolt Thunder are The warriors in 2016.

[Rich Paul]

Fair. All I'm saying is the mindset of the front office and the players is I can guarantee you those guys aren't satisfied. And we as a basketball community has to stop only wanting the popular teams to be good. Let me tell you something. In 2008, it was 2007, maybe it was six. Whatever. I'm walking out of the arena with Joe Dumars. Me and Joe, we walking. And I used to always pick these Guys brains when I was coming up and I said something to Joe about how good the Pistons were or whatever, and it was the end of the season, and he said, he told. He basically told me in so many words, rich, I'm going back to Detroit, I'm getting in my office and I'm going to work. And I'm like, shit, Joe, y' all done been to I don't know how many Easter conference finals, et cetera. And he said, when you're as good as we are, you never come back stagnant. That always stuck with me, even outside of basketball. And I'm like, you know, normally you'd be popping champagne as much as he, and he's like, so again. But when you look at who Joe Dumars was as a player, he took on every challenge, didn't matter who it was. You get what I'm saying?

[Max Kellerman]

100%.

[Rich Paul]

That is mindset at the end of the day. So yes, I think the. I think what the warriors were. The Thunder could also emulate exactly that or align that synergy is there. The verdict is still out because they have to continue to get.

[Max Kellerman]

But they are. As I. As I went through the comparison, it's even. It's eerily similar. You win a championship, other team is hurt. That's maybe why you did it. The following season you run off an historical record. A historical like run in terms of your wins and losses remains to be seen whether you can win competitive front office, competitive franchise may add another piece. Okay, so I want to get to Ohio. You want to talk some Ohio sports.

[Rich Paul]

I'm Mr. Ohio. I never won Mr. Ohio. I wasn't good enough as an athlete. But you know where.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, I figured you might want.

[Rich Paul]

Browns and Buckeyes, baby. Browns and Buckeyes.

[Max Kellerman]

This is. This is the Bengals, though. Joe Burrow.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, if the. If the Browns isn't in it and the Bengals are in it, you. I root for Burrow. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Joe Burrow is one of my favorite. Joe Burrow. I mean, Jackson Darks. I'm a Giants fan and Mahomes has just been crazy. Joe Burrow might be, other than Dart, my favorite quarterback in football because. And let me tell you why. He had. He was the quarterback of the greatest college football season ever. They capped that season.

[Rich Paul]

That was a great team. That was a great team.

[Max Kellerman]

It was. They capped the season with a championship in which he had the greatest championship game of all time. He's drafted number one. The next time he's fully healthy on a football field, he's Sauntering into the AFC Championship game in a mink coat like he's doing Joe Namath and then beating Patrick Mahomes to get to the Super Bowl. So I love me some Joe Burrow.

[Rich Paul]

You can't hate. Nobody could be able to hate on Joe Burrow. You shouldn't.

[Max Kellerman]

Joe Burrow is. But once they got to the super bowl, they were beaten, partly because he has no protection. He's been sacked more than. And he's probably getting sacked now somewhere, like, for all we know, more than anyone. And he reminds me.

[Rich Paul]

So you think he's getting sacked, like.

[Max Kellerman]

At Starbucks, like, as right now someone's tackling him. He reminds me so much of another Ohio athlete that you may be familiar with, LeBron James, where LeBron dragged the team, maybe one of the least talented teams ever to the finals in his first go round with the Cavs.

[Rich Paul]

07.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. And they lose, of course. And I remember as a fan, and you could tell me if I'm right or wrong, watching from a distance, seeing them pass on a trade centered around JJ Hickson for Amar E. Stoudemire. And to me, that had to be when LeBron was like, oh, that was tough. LeBron must have been like, if I stay here, I'll get criticism, whatever, Whatever. But if I stay where I am, I have one life, I have one career. If I stay where I am, I'll never get to the promised land because this franchise won't do what it takes. By the way, Kobe did the same thing to the Lakers. Like, when they wouldn't put people around him, he said, trade me to the Clippers. And then they went and got him. Pau Gasol Burrow seems to me from afar to be doing that right now, saying, I can't keep doing it like this. Something's gotta change. And it reminds me of your guy.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. You know, I think Joe Burrow should go to the Giants. What I would love to see Joe Burrow, Jackson Dart on the Giants. No offense to you, Jackson Dart. I think you a very fly guy. But Joe Burrow in the New York Giants uniform.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Be crazy.

[Rich Paul]

Is like Snoop coming through and crushing the buildings. Like Joe. Like, it's Joe Burrow. No offense to Jackson. I think Jackson. Jackson Dart's going to get his money. He's a hell of a footballer.

[Max Kellerman]

Or at least Capone and Noriega is clapping back on that fair.

[Rich Paul]

Or it's like NASA. By the way, Nas and Premier just dropped a new album. I don't know if you knew that, but it's like, that's like Joe Burrow and the Giants with Malik Neighbors. They both went to lsu. You got. It's. I'm just telling you. But anyway, I understand. Yes. And this is what's underrated about athletes. Again, going Back to the LJ situation, I @ that moment was not as mentally positioned where he was at in terms of obviously, he's the player. So the getting out of there thing was tough for me, obviously, being from Cleveland, but also I'm just like this Mighty Mouse type of guy. Like, we could beat anybody, it don't.

[Max Kellerman]

Matter. Believe in ourselves.

[Rich Paul]

Then. But when you really think about it, you think about the success of people, of athletes, it takes a lot. Right. When you think about what the Patriots did around Brady, when you think about what Jerry Krause did around Michael, when you think about even what, you know, the Lakers did around Kobe, it's.

[Max Kellerman]

Hard to get him.

[Rich Paul]

Right. It's very hard to get him. Hard to get it right. And so. But when an athlete takes the position that they take, whether it's media, whether it's fans, you're not looking at it holistically. So in Joe Burrow's case, and I didn't see. I saw some of the take what he said. I know. I saw. I think one of his teammates thought it was like AI or something. I think he was saying. Which leads me to, I want to see Joe Burrow on the Giants.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. But any, like you bring this up now, any other moment of my life, I would say, are you kidding? As a Giants fan, that's all I want. My favorite quarterback on my team. Giants got the guy. They got a guy on a rookie deal.

[Rich Paul]

Who'S. Is he better than Joe.

[Max Kellerman]

Burrow? I mean, does he have the chance to be on that level? Yeah, he has the chance to be on that level. Jackson Dart.

[Rich Paul]

Is. I like Jackson Dart, but I.

[Max Kellerman]

Like Joe Burrow better right now. Of course, he's more experienced.

[Rich Paul]

Quarterback. So let me ask you this.

[Max Kellerman]

Question. Jackson Dart is one of those.

[Rich Paul]

Guys. Okay. So what you're saying as a Giants fan, that if you had the chance to put Joe Burrow on the Giants right.

[Max Kellerman]

Now. Oh, no, I got my.

[Rich Paul]

Guy.

[Max Kellerman]

Really? Yeah. Like Drake May is the guy right now. Of all the young ascending quarterbacks, I'm not convinced Drake May is going to wind up better than Jackson. So where would you. We'll.

[Rich Paul]

See. So where would you place Joe.

[Max Kellerman]

Burrow? I don't. I don't think you're going to have to place him. That's what I'm Saying, like, Kobe didn't leave, LeBron did. But there's enough evidence in front of owners now to understand when that guy takes a position like this publicly, you got to fix that. Because you're not going to just find another Joe.

[Rich Paul]

Burrow. You're saying, okay, that's fair. I mean. Yeah, I think you're saying you think he doesn't want to.

[Max Kellerman]

Leave? I don't.

[Rich Paul]

Know. You think he just wanted to fix.

[Max Kellerman]

It? I think. I don't know. The answer is I don't know. I don't have information on that. But it seems to me what he's saying is either fix it or I'm out. And I'm imagining Cincinnati will try to fix.

[Rich Paul]

It. Yeah, they should. But it's such a hard thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Right? Just cause you try doesn't mean you're gonna get it.

[Rich Paul]

Right. And it's football. Any given Sunday, it's football. The thing that bothers me is all these guys are going up. Football is a real sport. Like, I watch games on Sunday and I'm like, wow, this is. This.

[Max Kellerman]

Is. It's the ultimate team.

[Rich Paul]

Sport. This is. Yeah. So, I mean, things happen. You. You come all the way back, game winning. You know, I've been a part of the Drive and the Fumble. I'm a Cleveland Browns fan. You mean. What are you talking about? You don't know.

[Max Kellerman]

That? Yeah, yeah. As a.

[Rich Paul]

Fan. And the other day I had.

[Max Kellerman]

The opportunity, thought you were gonna tell me Legends of Rich. You were somehow on the field or.

[Rich Paul]

Something. No, no, I was. No. But the other day I happened to.

[Max Kellerman]

Be. Cause you have stories. Some stories like Fat Joe sometimes where Fat.

[Rich Paul]

Joe. No, I just did Joe and Jada. Yeah, hilarious, by the.

[Max Kellerman]

Way. Cause they're great. But I'm saying Fat Joe will say stuff that really happened. But it's so incredible that people think that he's the. And sometimes you will say stuff that's like Legends of.

[Rich Paul]

Rich. But the other day, speaking of the Fumble and the Drive, I was on the golf course with John.

[Max Kellerman]

Elway. Okay, see, here we.

[Rich Paul]

Go. And I'm like, this is what I'm talking about. I'm like, it's John Elway. I mean, I was a quarterback, My Sims Raiders team. I wore number.

[Max Kellerman]

Seven.

[Rich Paul]

Really? Because of John Elway. Really? But I was torn because I'm like, damn, John. Like, we could. You couldn't give us one. Like, just. You had to drive all the way down there, like. And my dad is singing Brownstown. I'm thinking we had the song. Bernie. Bernie. Oh.

[Max Kellerman]

Man. You want to talk about the Browns right.

[Rich Paul]

Now? No, I'm just.

[Max Kellerman]

Saying. No, I'm saying let's talk about the Browns right.

[Host/Announcer]

Now.

[Rich Paul]

Fair. But what I'm saying is I was torn and I'm like, this is Elway, my guy. But what you did to my.

[Max Kellerman]

Browns, man, this is.

[Rich Paul]

Evil. Yeah, it was, but it was. I just, you.

[Max Kellerman]

Know. Yeah, there are guys like.

[Rich Paul]

That. I took the high.

[Max Kellerman]

Road. There are guys like that. Like, if I don't think I've ever met him in person, if I bump into David Ortiz, I don't want anything to do with him as a Yankees fan. Killed us. Just a.

[Rich Paul]

Killer. Fair. Yeah.

[Host/Announcer]

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[Max Kellerman]

Nordstrom. Listen, Shador Sanders, let's stay in Ohio. You got it. I don't have my watch on today. It works. Let's stay in Ohio. You draft him in the fifth round and at this moment he is a promising ascending starting quarterback. Lucky us, fifth round.

[Rich Paul]

Pick. Not bad. Lucky me and lucky us should do. I mean Deion Sanders is his father.

[Max Kellerman]

Right? So didn't inherit the speed.

[Rich Paul]

Though. Yeah, he's not playing.

[Max Kellerman]

Cornerback. And by the way, he's better moving around than advertised. Like on the professional level, he looks more comfortable, he's more mobile than it looked like he was going to.

[Rich Paul]

Be. What he did inherit is a competitive gene and as a quarterback on the Browns, he cares. He's handled everything you've asked him to handle. He's went from Jackson State to Colorado, he's turned programs that wasn't even in the conversation into, you know, pop culture esque type of Environments for sure, if for us. But here's what I'll say. I understand why. I don't understand why he dropped to the fifth round. Which is fine. Right? I'm not an NFL expert, I don't understand that. But I know football from what I watch every day. But lucky us, and lucky me, I'm glad to have Shador. But with that being said, I also understand why the Browns couldn't necessarily just throw him in the fire after taking Dylan Gabriel in the third round. Because it's actually one of those things where Shadeur's football is one thing, his enterprise value is a whole other thing. And to be respectful to the guy they picked in the third round, that's kind of tough. So you have to give him an opportunity first. Because if you don't, I'm not saying you have to. They chose to. Because if you don't, if you just. And then now Shadour plays well. It's almost like, you know, Shadour and Linsanity is kind of like one of.

[Max Kellerman]

Those. Except one came in with a lot more.

[Rich Paul]

Fanfare. Fair point. But what I'm saying is the enterprise value of.

[Max Kellerman]

Votes. Yeah, I see. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. You trying to come behind, playing behind one of those guys and they got it rolling. How do you think it became Lynn's sanity? So for me, I'm happy that Shadour's getting the opportunity. I'm also happy that I'm saying R because the.

[Max Kellerman]

Browns. Yeah, that's your team. I'm not one of these. I say we about the Giants and the Yankees. I say.

[Rich Paul]

We. Our front office handled things the way they wanted to handle it. You know, contrary to what people may think. Kevin Stefanski, great, you know, and he came out and said so going forward, Shadu is going to be our starting quarterback. And I'm glad he's getting the reps. We can't, you know, things have to happen on the timeline that is supposed to.

[Max Kellerman]

Happen. Right. I got, I got a lot to say about that. Starting with first thing you said about Deion. This is his son. Deion Sanders is not only like if I was drafting my all time NFL team, he's my number two.

[Rich Paul]

Pick. Behind.

[Max Kellerman]

Who? Behind Lawrence.

[Rich Paul]

Taylor. Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Fair. Because I think you get a premium like Lawrence Taylor is to me so much better than anyone who ever played that position. You get a premium there. A lot of great quarterbacks, but there's never anyone like Lawrence Taylor or Deion Sanders. No, like Deion Sanders. To me watching, he's so much better than anyone else I've ever seen play that position. And so like, usually a guy who is that great a player. When you talk about the greatest athletes of all time, short list, Deion Sanders has to be there. Multi sport athlete. When you talk about the greatest at his position, all time, any sport. Deion Sanders is in that conversation with the greatest players who ever lived in any sport. That guy almost never becomes a coach. Almost never becomes a coach. Deion Sanders became a coach. So it's not just that he is. It's his kid and whatever, he gets DNA physically, but he's the type of person who also wants to coach the game. So the bloodline there is crazy, right? It's crazy. Shador, I think, becomes a kind of racial flashpoint. I think this breaks down along racial lines. There's some athletes that come along and people don't always want to say it, but I think, I think it's there. I think that he had something about his personality. You hear like, the Giants hated his interview. And by the way, they took Jackson Dart, who I think is better than Chador. I'm glad they took Jackson Dart. But you heard that he had a really awful interview with the Giants. But then again, the Giants were a bad franchise. Who knows why that went sideways? But people start to. I think there's a reaction among people who it feels like are entrenched in power and a lot of them are white who say, this guy isn't good. And I'm speaking in big generalities here, and I think there's a sense among black people, you can tell me if I'm right or wrong from your point of view or from your own experience. Well, you can't speak for all black people, just like I couldn't speak for white people or Jewish people or something. But just from your experience, I think there's a sense like a reaction like, oh, here we go again. You're gonna tell us that this guy isn't good. And I think then the counter to that is, well, yeah, I understand why this group of people may feel that we're attacking this guy. And you're used to that. But in this case, we have good reason. You know, he had a bad interview, has the wrong attitude, he's not fast enough, he's not big enough, et cetera, et cetera. And I think the counter to that reaction is, yeah, yeah, we've heard this before. It's always. But in this case, it's always, yes, that's happened in the past, but that's not happening this time. So I think that becomes. Without anyone putting a name to it, there's like this undercurrent there that is. That is correlated at least to kind of racial tension. And in Shador, I'm in a position like I'm watching Shador. Like, it's hard to tell who's going to be good out of college, right? Especially a dude who can't outrun the linebackers. Especially a dude who's not six' six. You just don't know. And Shador is super interesting right now because he is showing signs that he might be able to actually do it. He has a great deep ball. He's more mobile than people really think, all this kind of stuff. And he's putting up numbers, too. Finally, the last point I want to make about it, because you touched on it, was a lot of. There's this sense in the NFL that you need to win while your quarterback's on his rookie deal, which is not even true. Usually veteran quarterbacks win the Super.

[Rich Paul]

Bowl. Well, rookie quarterbacks didn't even used to.

[Max Kellerman]

Play. I mean, that's the.

[Rich Paul]

Problem. Brady got his chance because Bledsoe got.

[Max Kellerman]

Hurt. Especially with a guy who's not going to outrun the linebackers, who's not 66 and all that stuff. Usually they hold the clipboard for most of the season. They get into a few games, rookie year, second year, they. They take over the job, but they're not good.

[Rich Paul]

Yet. Rogers in, like, there's so many.

[Max Kellerman]

Different year, okay, that's a quarterback. And by the middle of their fourth year, you have to look at them and say, that guy is going to get to the second contract. He's going to be our franchise guy. People want to rush through that process. Shedor Sanders is a classic example of a quarterback who is showing promise toward the end of his rookie season. And the jury is out. For me, I don't know if he'll do it or not, but I think that's where he is. All right. That's everything I have to say about Shadore.

[Rich Paul]

Sanders. You know, all this was like a line in basketball, too. The rookie didn't used to play. They used to sit on the side in street clothes for half the season. But going back to Shador and going back to Deion is Deion, like you said. Normally, Deion wouldn't coach. The level of player that he was, wouldn't coach. But he cares. He cares about kids. He cares about how kids play the game. And he loves teaching. Like, that's just who he is.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. Very rare for a Guy, very.

[Rich Paul]

Rare. Good in athletes, very rare. The other thing that's rare is for a guy to have everything like Deion had, everything you can have. He's a case study for what a superstar athlete should be. He had the flair, he had the conversation. He had the intellect, he had the game, he had the style. He had literally. I.

[Max Kellerman]

Remember. Can I say something real quick? He was also. People don't realize this. He was on his way to becoming a truly great baseball player. Like, people don't understand how good he was. He didn't have a lot of reps, he didn't play full seasons. But he was not only a pretty high on base percentage, leadoff guy, but he was a guy and who could play crazy center field because he was just so fast. But he was also a guy who hit in the post season. He hit the best pitching in the playoffs, like I always thought he was going to be had he stuck with it. A better baseball player than Bo Jackson, for.

[Rich Paul]

Example. And if you add in the fact that his shoe. Signature shoe. I put Deion's signature shoe catalog up against all the.

[Max Kellerman]

Great. He had it.

[Rich Paul]

All. Barkley, Jordan, they all was. So he had the. Literally the total package. Even the music must be the.

[Max Kellerman]

Money. You can't front on that.

[Rich Paul]

Money. Listen, you can't. You cannot front on it at the end of the day. And so when I look at Shador, the other thing he did is he raised his boys right. Right at the end. No offense to the Giants. I'm not gonna say the Giants looked at it a certain way. They chose what they chose Jackson.

[Max Kellerman]

Dartson, and I'm happy with it as a.

[Rich Paul]

Giant. He's a good quarterback and he has a good, promising future. Great. But I do think that sometimes we have to stop looking at players the way our school system looks at students. Every kid don't learn the same. So you want me to fit inside of this silhouette that you have of what this quarterback should be. I'm different. Just like you want me to read this textbook from 100 years ago. I don't learn that way. I may be a visual learner. I may not learn by reading something. You get what I'm saying? And so we have the issues in both on the field and off the field. That's stunning. The growth of all these young men and women, if we. If we're really being honest about it. So I'm Shador. I'm Shador all day.

[Max Kellerman]

Long. Yeah. With the. The whole thing today is Shador chain outside the.

[Rich Paul]

Sweatshirt. The whole thing Well, I have different styles, Max. You have one style, like. Like a. Like a. I have an array of styles because I've evolved and I have different experiences and things like that. This style you seeing, right? This is called. This is what you call a St. Clair Gardens type of style. This is like, you know, this is different. You may call it.

[Max Kellerman]

Uptown.

[Rich Paul]

Uptown?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. You say in New York that'd.

[Rich Paul]

Be called uptown, but you look great. I hate you forgot your watch. Every man should have a nice, not expensive watch, just a nice.

[Max Kellerman]

Watch. For most of America, a Submariner is an expensive watch. Just so you.

[Rich Paul]

Know. A Submariner is a great watch, but you don't. I'm just saying just to complete the look. But yeah, but no. I'm Shador all day long and I gotta get my.

[Max Kellerman]

Jersey. They don't call him Poor Paul. His name is Rich.

[Rich Paul]

Paul. My mom named me. That's just my government. Can't help.

[Max Kellerman]

That. Rich. Your first week in the.

[Rich Paul]

Media. Max, I want to say something. You cooked.

[Max Kellerman]

Today? I thought you did.

[Rich Paul]

Too. You made me better.

[Max Kellerman]

Today. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Likewise. Appreciate it. I'm a rookie. You're the.

[Max Kellerman]

Vet. Good. How do you feel about your rookie.

[Rich Paul]

Week? I'm making.

[Max Kellerman]

Progress.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I'm coachable, so I'm good. Good week.

[Max Kellerman]

Though. I thought that was.

[Rich Paul]

Fun. That was.

[Max Kellerman]

Fun. You ready to do.

[Rich Paul]

That? We got better today. Next week I'll see you on.

[Max Kellerman]

Monday and then week after that and the week after that.

[Rich Paul]

Forever. Let's do it. I may be on the road at some.

[Max Kellerman]

Point. Yeah, yeah, we.

[Rich Paul]

Anticipate. Because I do have a day.

[Max Kellerman]

Job. Don't forget, we anticipated.

[Rich Paul]

This. Yeah, but good.

[Max Kellerman]

Show. I'll see you on.

[Rich Paul]

Monday. See you on.

[Max Kellerman]

Monday. Must be 21 and over in President Select St States for Kansas and affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino. Or 18 and over in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-G GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit MD gamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New.

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