Game Over from Miami! Sixers Stay Alive, and Vlade Divac on Sports Agents.

Summary

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Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul – April 29, 2026

Episode: "Game Over from Miami! Sixers Stay Alive, and Vlade Divac on Sports Agents"

Main Theme

In this Miami-recorded episode, Max Kellerman and sports agent Rich Paul take listeners inside the modern sports business, discussing NBA playoff drama, offering behind-the-scenes looks into the agent life, and reacting to candid comments from Vlade Divac about the power of sports agents. Candid banter, sharp basketball analysis, and expert insights into the culture and complexity of player representation are at the heart of the conversation.

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Life as a Sports Super-Agent: Miami Edition

Timestamp: 01:22 – 10:28

Key Points

• Why Miami?
  • Rich Paul and Max joke about traveling to Miami ostensibly for business, not pleasure.
  • “I brought you along to work with me... There's executives here. There's brands here. This is another part of the job you don’t get to see.” — Rich Paul [01:28]
• The Nature of Sports Agencies Today
  • Rich shares details on the evolving role of agents, stressing meetings with C-suite executives and the expansion of agency business into brand sponsorships, partnerships, and consulting.
  • “People see me, they think player only... but our business has changed a lot.” — Rich Paul [02:07]
  • They break down "verticals": categories such as hydration, mobile, footwear, each requiring distinct strategies for partnerships [04:33].
• Team Structure & Agent Roles
  • Rich highlights the importance of building a team, naming standout agents like Nicole Lynn, Kelton Crenshaw, and Lucas Newton.
  • “I position myself as... available if needed. If not needed, great. But if I’m needed... I’ll work a part of the team in any capacity.” — Rich Paul [07:11]
• Overcoming Industry Bias
  • Rich Paul describes being targeted with anonymous, racially motivated texts meant to tarnish his reputation or scuttle deals.
  • “You won’t believe ... companies texting a player from an anonymous number, derogatory things, the race card being played...” — Rich Paul [08:31]
  • Discusses harder scrutiny from those with similar backgrounds: “We are harder on each other than anybody.” — Rich Paul [09:12]

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NBA Playoff Analysis: Series Updates & Tactical Insights

Timestamp: 13:40 – 29:38

Sixers vs. Celtics

• Philly extends series behind Embiid’s 33 points and Maxey’s 25.
• Integration of Embiid post-injury—a good sign for team chemistry: “When you integrate a big piece... it's going to maybe take a minute, but apparently they're already integrated.” — Max Kellerman [16:42]
• Rich suggests staggering Embiid and Maxey to always have a star on the floor: “Never go without both of those guys on the floor when healthy.” — Rich Paul [18:17]
• Edgecombe’s emergence as a key role player: “He actually cares. He’s not just happy getting to the NBA, he actually cares.” — Rich Paul [18:48]

Knicks vs. Hawks

• Knicks comfortably up; Max believes NY will close it out in six, Rich predicts a possible Hawks push for a Game 7 [20:30–21:19].
• Need for Atlanta to draft a big guard; both comment on positional weaknesses [22:03–23:15].

Lakers Scenarios & Impact of Austin Reaves’ Return

• The challenge of reintegrating Austin Reaves to maximize LeBron’s playmaking, lessen his load, and strengthen pick-and-roll options [24:13–27:16].
• “If LeBron’s setting the ball screen with Austin [Reaves] coming off… he can really shoot the ball… you're not going to blitz him because he's throwing it back to LJ [LeBron James]...” — Rich Paul [27:03]
• Max’s strategic curiosity about LeBron in a “Super Karl Malone” role with Reaves as lead ballhandler.

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Vlade Divac on Agents, Player Power, and Loyalty

Timestamp: 30:10 – 44:59

Vlade Divac’s Critique

• Divac claims agents wield too much control, sometimes undermining team trades by threatening not to re-sign their clients with the acquiring team.
• “They [agents] kill my deal… The players have to realize they [agents] are working for them, not the agency.” — Vlade Divac [31:29]
• Divac emphasizes players must remember who works for whom in the agent-client relationship.

Rich Paul’s Rebuttal & Transparency

• Rich agrees both agent and GM acted reasonably: “The agent did right by letting the team know... that's the right thing for the agent to do...” [32:03]
• Real-life example of leverage: teams still sometimes trade for players despite knowledge they might not re-sign (e.g., Kawhi with Toronto).
• Perspective on player loyalty: industry has evolved from mom-and-pop to corporate, changing the nature of loyalty and career choices.

Memorable Quotes

• “If you don't value expertise, you're in trouble. You should have the right agent that you trust... the agent’s the only guy that actually has your hundred percent best interest.” — Rich Paul [35:50]
• Agents’ multi-client dynamics & supposed conflict of interest: “They say, ‘Well, he has LeBron, he's not going to care about you.’ Man, LeBron’s 40 years old… That’s discouragement.” — Rich Paul [37:22]
• “The fact that they have that extremely powerful client will serve your interests.” — Max Kellerman [40:00]
• On scrutiny for successful Black agents: “Many people think, ‘Oh, you represent this one guy. Everyone comes to you because of that guy.’ No, that’s not true... I know what they had to fight off to make the decision to allow me to represent them.” — Rich Paul [41:23]

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The Myth of Career-Long Loyalty in Sports

Timestamp: 44:59 – 49:33

Changing Eras

• Byron Scott laments the lost era of career loyalty; Max compares it to a loss of personal honor replaced by rule of law, referencing “Gangs of New York.”
• “There was no magical old days where everyone was different. Everyone’s always the same, motherf***er, what are you talking about?” — Max Kellerman [44:39]
• Rich argues that loyalty to one team is circumstantial and often forced by an organization’s sustained competence.

Player Development & Team Strategy

• Hypothetical what-ifs: if LeBron had been drafted by a forward-thinking team like OKC or managed with patience, “we’re gonna play this thing out... but then we’re gonna have 10 years of winning.” — Rich Paul [47:29]
• On building through the draft vs. tanking: “That’s not tanking, that’s building something.” — Rich Paul [48:38]

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NBA Team Building & Trade Deadline Musings

Timestamp: 50:47 – 54:53

Detroit, Orlando, and Building a Contender

• Max and Rich agree Detroit needs another playmaker and a shooter; Rich’s ideal is Dejounte Murray-type to play with Cade Cunningham [53:00].
• “A secondary score that can make a play, but that can really shoot the ball from 38 to 40 [percent] from three. Because that's what they're missing.” — Rich Paul [53:59]
• The Magic praised for having “no below league average players in their starting five” but debate whether Paolo Banchero is a true #1 option [55:08–56:15].

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Listener Emails & Legacy Talk

Timestamp: 58:44 – 63:07

Notable Email Answers

• Best & Least Significance of “Rings” for Player Legacy

  • “Football [rings] matters the least... NBA, you need the rings the most.” — Max Kellerman [59:32–60:13]
  • Rich references how that conversation has evolved even in baseball.

• Lakers Criticism & LeBron’s Than Impact

  • Responding to a listener’s criticism for doubting LA: “If you took LeBron off this team... they would never be in position for their contributions to matter because you wouldn’t be winning any games.” — Max Kellerman [62:36]

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Memorable Moments & Banter

• Max and Rich’s Miami fashion talk evokes banter reminiscent of “Miami Vice” [12:05].
• Comedic moment: Max’s partner says he looks more “like the Colonel from KFC” rather than a Miami style icon [12:59].
• Deep dive into the NBA’s evolving style: Wembanyama comparisons to George Gervin and KD; Shaq’s potential if allowed more freedom [13:56–16:15].
• Running joke: Max’s inability to eat pizza without putting on weight: “I gained two pounds just saying pizza.” — Max Kellerman [63:22]

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Quick Reference: Timestamps for Key Segments

• The Business of Being a Sports Agent in 2026: [01:22–10:28]
• NBA Player Development & Playoff Analysis: [13:40–29:38]
• Vlade Divac’s Critique on Agent Power: [30:10–44:59]
• Modern vs. Old-School NBA Loyalty: [44:59–49:33]
• Detroit & Orlando Team Building: [50:47–54:53]
• Listener Emails & Player Legacy: [58:44–63:07]

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Takeaways

• Insightful Transparency: Rich Paul offers a direct, sometimes unfiltered window into the struggles and misconceptions sports agents face—even at the top.
• Basketball IQ on Display: Both hosts blend deep technical basketball knowledge with industry stories, moving seamlessly between on-court analysis and bigger questions of team strategy.
• Culture & Race: The hosts refuse to shy away from race and culture in sports, exploring the extra obstacles Black professionals and athletes must overcome for success.
• Humor & Chemistry: Amid deep analysis, lighthearted asides and pop culture make for a personable, engaging listen.

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Transcript

[Max Kellerman]

This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Look, I love what I do. I highly recommend it. If you can get into this business, it beats working for a living. You watch sports, you talk about them, you debate about them, you give everyone your opinion about them. Right. You're gonna do that anyway, but you get paid for it. It's a good deal. People driven by passion are good for business. It's finding them that's the problem. Luckily, ZipRecruiter can help with that. Try it [e-mail] gameover ZipRecruiter is consistently on it. They have powerful matching tech, and they're frequently rated the number one hiring site based on G2 Plus. They added a new feature that pushes qualified candidates who are most interested in your job to the top of your list. Find candidates who really want your job on ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for [e-mail] gameover. That's ziprecruiter.com gameover meet your match on ZipRecruiter. All right, Rich, what are we doing in Miami?

[Rich Paul]

What are we not doing in Miami?

[Max Kellerman]

But why are we doing in Miami? Why are we doing in Miami?

[Rich Paul]

I brought you along to work with me.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes. That's why I came.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I have to come here to work.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

There's executives here. Yep. You know, there's. There's brands here. This is another part of the job you don't get to see.

[Max Kellerman]

You bent my rubber arm. You were like, hey, you want to go to my max? You got to go to Miami. I'm like, I didn't. I mean, all right, all right, I'll go to Miami.

[Rich Paul]

It really didn't take.

[Max Kellerman]

No.

[Rich Paul]

Didn't take that much.

[Max Kellerman]

Like, Max, I said yes.

[Rich Paul]

But you always ask me, like, what all do you do?

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

So this is not me coming to see a race.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

This is me coming, and actually, I'm working.

[Max Kellerman]

This is like the Masters.

[Rich Paul]

This is like the Masters. Yes. Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

So what do you. When you say working, that's. That's kind of vague to people. What does that entail?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I think. Look, I think when people see me, they only. They think initially, player only. And obviously that's. I'm going to do that, prioritize that. But at the same time, our business has changed a lot. And there's C suite executives. That's here. There's brands here. You know, you're you're having meetings and conversations and dinners and interactions with people at a C suite level in which opportunities come out of. And those opportunities flow from a company company perspective in our brand sponsorships department and partnerships department and consulting department all the way down to some of them become endorsements or one offs or you know, deals for clients as well. And so it's, I would say it's a, it's a holistic approach. When you come into an event as massive as the F one week, you

[Max Kellerman]

know, sometimes you have a friend. I have friends like this. Like growing up in New York, friends run the game. Like it's the whole spectrum. People who aren't around anymore versus people who are C suite. Right, right. And a lot of times my friend will tell me what they do and I still don't understand it. And there's an episode of Seinfeld where, where the Larry David character, George Costanza. No, no, it's Kramer. He doesn't know what's in it. Like he's, he's, he's like faking working at some business. So he brings a briefcase and in the briefcase he just keeps crackers. Because like, you know, I don't know if you, you ever saw like when I was a kid I used to see people with briefcases.

[Rich Paul]

It's like, yes. Wonder what's in it. Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

What's in there might as well be crackers. Right. Like, who the hell knows?

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

When you start talking about C suite and different opportunities, I still, if someone asked me like what's Rich doing? I'd be like, he's schmoozing people. I don't know, he's like trying to connect, network, something to do with networking, something.

[Rich Paul]

Listen, I tell you, it's in today's industries, especially when you're in the sports business, when you at the epicenter of sports is really, you're at the epicent of culture.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

And at that epicenter, sports, there's business, I mean there's sports, there's entertainment, there's obviously business. And then once you in those verticals, you unpack a lot of that even

[Max Kellerman]

can you tell people what a vertical means? Because people are so pretty vertical around.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Well, okay, so if we were talking about different verticals in, in different partnerships. So you have mobile, you have hydration, you have footwear. Those are all different verticals.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Like that. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Different departments within.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, well, within the ecosystem of business.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. I would say for different categories.

[Rich Paul]

Different categories, yes. Yes. So it's not just a, anyone knows

[Max Kellerman]

what he means still.

[Rich Paul]

It's not just a. A linear thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Anything to do with NFTs.

[Rich Paul]

I. I never got NFTs, but at least not for me. And the thing about it is I. I do remember a time where I only had to focus on getting one or two clients in the draft every year. That was my only focus.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Didn't have to worry about, you know, staff. Didn't have to worry about scaling. Didn't have to worry about.

[Max Kellerman]

And so now you're kind of the closer, right? You have agents who sign clients. Oh, I see. Recruit at times. But they have to produce Rich Paul at a certain point, right?

[Rich Paul]

They don't have to. No, no. I mean, we work as a team sometimes.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, sometimes if I'm signing to clutch and, you know, I'm doing one of the others, at some point, I got to see Rich Paul.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I think. Look, I think you never want to build a business that's solely dependent of you. Right? But you do want to have it to where people value your opinion and your expertise. And so I think there's a. There's a. There's a happy medium there. We have some really, really, really, really good agents. I mean, look, Nicole Lynn is a star.

[Vladi]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

Right. Kelton Crenshaw is a rising star in terms of football. You met them both. So you've seen it on the basketball front, again, same thing. Lucas Newton's a rising star. My guy, saint in our business.

[Max Kellerman]

Saint all throughout the football season.

[Rich Paul]

So, you know, when you think about guys like Anthony Fields or Josh Harrison, I got a guy, you know, Keith Stevens, who's an OG in the game. He's been around forever, knows every kid. You know, reputation is second to none. So I've always tried to surround myself with people that, one, we like to work well together. Right. And then two, look, obviously, you know, we don't have any jealousy within our internal system. That's not what we're trying to do. And so I. I position myself as. I'm available if needed. Right? Right. If not needed, great. But if I'm needed and I don't. I don't need to be the show, I don't have to do that.

[Max Kellerman]

But. But if the kid needs to see you show up to feel good about

[Rich Paul]

it or play a supporting role, I'll make the phone call that needs to be made. If there's a phone call that need to be made, I'll work a part of the team in any capacity necessary for us to be successful as a unit.

[Max Kellerman]

Got it? Right. And I'm pretty good at daily fantasy football, so there we go.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, you are.

[Max Kellerman]

There we go.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, you are.

[Max Kellerman]

Daily fantasy. I like it. All right, you ready to start this thing?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, let's do it. Oh, I forgot my guys. Shy and Mike George. I can't forget them because Mike George get mad at me. But okay, again from.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, you got to shout out more agents.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's. That's important. You know, that's important. But again, when I think about it more and more from where I started to where we are, I just really count my blessings, man, because I'm telling you, I remember people don't understand. I was fired by both clients of my first draft, before the draft and after the draft.

[Max Kellerman]

And they also have to understand the reality of being a young, black, successful agent who, by the way, who, by the way, is not just going to play the game that people are presenting you, but it's going to play their own game. So even within the industry, you're going to start to engender jealousy. You're going to start to engender, you're going to start to encounter backlash. I'm sure there are people who feel like I gave him his big break and then he went off and made his own bit. Right? Like that's how it always goes.

[Rich Paul]

Listen, Max, you won't believe every. I can tell you so many things that happened towards me, like getting ready to sign a client, a company that, you know, big companies that shouldn't even have no issue, no, they shouldn't even be in this space texting a. A player from an anonymous number. Derogatory things. The race card is being played, you

[Max Kellerman]

know, then you got to show up at his office and be like. Or see him at the club and be like, all I got in this world is my word. It's my balls and I don't break them for nobody.

[Rich Paul]

The discourage.

[Max Kellerman]

You got to hit him with the Tony Montana.

[Rich Paul]

And when I spoke about Arbel Reese, why I was saying why that was so important and why it was a much bigger deal is because those are the hardest ones. We are harder on each other than anybody.

[Max Kellerman]

You from your same neighborhood, know the

[Rich Paul]

same people or this or just the same journey were harder on.

[Max Kellerman]

You're not so glamorous to that guy because he's like me. He's not from this special make believe land.

[Rich Paul]

And this is after all the, the success and, and results and you know, the, the, if I showed you the people I talk to on a daily basis and the level that they are in their fields and their respective fields and the respect they have. I have to prove myself more than to those that.

[Max Kellerman]

Right then. Then to.

[Rich Paul]

Than to those.

[Max Kellerman]

I've seen you in rooms with very important people. They love the fact that you're there. The whole thing.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, are we done with this? Is this. Is this. This is my life or what's that?

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no. I mean, you got into it. But. But I think it's good for people to know.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And so. But whatever.

[Max Kellerman]

Anytime you give on this show us peek behind the curtain. I think people like.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, it's just a peak. Listen, by no stretch of imagination. I don't need anybody. There's no pity party for me. It's Disneyland every day for me, especially where I come from. So I'm blessed. I'm happy.

[Max Kellerman]

This is your life. I'm an idiot. I said this is my this is your life was that old show. This is your life. All right.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, but.

[Rich Paul]

Game [e-mail].

[Max Kellerman]

yeah. Game over with Max Kellerman. Rich Paul. We're getting to emails today. Let's do like three emails today.

[Rich Paul]

Sure.

[Max Kellerman]

Let's do it. Game over is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA postseason is here, and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team is is winning along with them. Let's be honest, FanDuel is the best place to bet the team's players and plays during their playoff run. Build a same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip off. And don't forget, with FanDuel you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 and over in select states 18 and over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincut.

[Rich Paul]

Max, I'm not on the boat.

[Max Kellerman]

I know. I see it. You got a bathing suit on or something? Yeah. What is that?

[Rich Paul]

Well, you know, you want to know what it is? It's a little.

[Max Kellerman]

It's Miami.

[Rich Paul]

It's Miami. But yeah, it was a seasonal piece that. That's not in season in the store that it came from.

[Max Kellerman]

Gotcha, Gotcha. Very, very coordinated. You got. Listen, you got not Ralph.

[Rich Paul]

It's not Ralph.

[Max Kellerman]

For once, you got your own sneaker on your own signature shoe, right? No, no, no. It's not an rp.

[Rich Paul]

Just a new balance. No, it's just a new balance, but it's Not Ralph for once.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

It's all good, right? Yeah. I like to. When you're in Miami, you gotta feel like you.

[Max Kellerman]

I like to wear. You look fat.

[Rich Paul]

Listen, you look fantastic.

[Max Kellerman]

Thank you very much.

[Rich Paul]

Look fantastic. By the way, you look very. What I would say, executive chic.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, well, we have to do a Miami thing. We're down here. We look like we're about cracking in Tubs. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, come on. That was. Everyone wanted to be Crockett and Tubs back in the day.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. Yeah. But. But, you know, what did you say

[Max Kellerman]

about me the other day? I thought I was doing a Crockett and Tubs thing, and you said it was

[Rich Paul]

Hyman Roth.

[Max Kellerman]

Hyman Roth.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. That was more of a Hyman Roth. This is more of a Crockett.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, my lady told me, though, right?

[Rich Paul]

What?

[Max Kellerman]

She said I was Looked like Colonel from kfc.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, she has to stop.

[Max Kellerman]

She did.

[Rich Paul]

No, she's too hard on you, Seriously.

[Max Kellerman]

But I had the. I had the jacket on and the glass.

[Rich Paul]

No, she has to stop that.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but when you pack. She sent me a picture of the Colonel.

[Rich Paul]

When you pack for M. You gotta. There's all type of. You need a. You need a morning look, lunch look.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You know, dinner look. And then you might take it even a step further.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes. A lot of looks.

[Rich Paul]

A lot of looks.

[Max Kellerman]

Did you check up. Do you check bags?

[Rich Paul]

I really don't check. Me neither.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't check either. I got that system where you push it down and the air goes out of the vent.

[Rich Paul]

No, I check my golf clubs.

[Max Kellerman]

Jesus. Everything for you is just. You got to do a show, golfing around the world.

[Rich Paul]

I just might.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I'm looking for my partner to do a show.

[Max Kellerman]

So. So, what's the score? I know you got the game on the side. You don't have to. You don't.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not watching the game.

[Max Kellerman]

I know you got the game on the side. What? Spurs. Blazers. Last. Spurs are up double digits.

[Rich Paul]

Spurs up 54, 35.

[Max Kellerman]

Second quarter.

[Rich Paul]

Second quarter.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. All right. All right. Yeah. Wemby. Wemby hit him with the. Wemby is what. Wemby is so smooth that he gets compared to KD. I've been saying he's not a 4 or 5, he's a 3. But the other guy he kind of reminds me of is George Curvin.

[Rich Paul]

No. The ice alien. Yeah, he's the ice alien. He's the ice alien. No, listen. What I would do. This happened to me. Seriously. So Damen Wilkins Gerald Wilkins, Son, I think I told you this story before. They beat us in the eighth grade AAU game. They did at Solent Middle School. And my. And the coaches wanted to. What do you call it? They wanted to petition. They wanted to what?

[Max Kellerman]

Protest?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, they wanted to. He was too old because he was like 6, 7. And I'm like, they won, man.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

But the more I think about it, we didn't really have a chance.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

He was.

[Max Kellerman]

That's WEMBY6.

[Rich Paul]

That's.

[Max Kellerman]

They're cheating. The whole thing with the cheat code. That's.

[Rich Paul]

Here's the thing. I think teams definitely have a chance. That's not what I'm saying. What's. The cheating part is the fact that a guy 7, 5 can do what a guy 5, 5 can do. He.

[Max Kellerman]

Even.

[Rich Paul]

That is where the protest even looks

[Max Kellerman]

smoother than a lot of the little guys. The way he does it is.

[Rich Paul]

So he practiced that so much. He practiced that you could just tell he's been in the gym forever.

[Max Kellerman]

Someone. I saw someone say in one of the. Maybe, I don't know, social media or one of the comments, I saw someone saying that we kind of. Or I kind of dissed Shaq by not bringing Shaq up as one of the giants who looked like a regular dude when he played. But Shaq wasn't allowed back then.

[Rich Paul]

He was not.

[Max Kellerman]

The things that he could have done,

[Rich Paul]

he had, and he had it.

[Max Kellerman]

But when you're not allowed to do it, you can't practice it as much.

[Rich Paul]

And he did sometimes. But. But also, Shaq brought the fun to the game. He was one of the. To me, no doubt.

[Max Kellerman]

And his personality. What I'm saying is, like, it's the same thing with shooting.

[Rich Paul]

He only got to show it in all star games and things like that.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right. Exactly. It's not like everyone's magically better at shooting now. They focus on it more. So everyone shoots it better now. And the bigs who are allowed to play with their facing the basket and everything are better at it than Shaq was because they practice it more. But Shaq had the potential. If Shaq was playing today, he would hit him with all that.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, with everything.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And he's one guy. You talk about big selling shoes.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. You could. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Shaq could sell shoes.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Especially today, I feel like. But we had this thing he couldn't do in any era is shoot. Shaq would have never been able to get strong.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not trying to, like, be selfish, but I have to watch the game, and we had to shoot while the game was on. Right. So I just want to make sure I don't miss anything for obvious reasons. Have a few guys playing.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

But at the same time, I wanted to be a good teammate.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Very good.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. Perfect.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

So you're going to be checking the game. Good.

[Rich Paul]

I'll be checking the game.

[Max Kellerman]

Keep. Keep us updated.

[Rich Paul]

Keep you updated.

[Max Kellerman]

What's going on? Meantime, Sixers beat the Celtics. They extend the series. And it's not just that. Embi went for 33, Maxi went for 25. But the first game back, Embiid could get his. But it was like two different worlds. They were playing in. Maxi plays fast. Embiid was playing slow. They were deferring to Embiid. They couldn't. You know, when you. When you integrate a big piece, literally, and. And. And. And figuratively like Embiid, it's going to maybe take a minute, but apparently they're already. It's. It's integrated because he did well.

[Rich Paul]

Well, look, we know Joel Embiid is Joel Embiid. When he's healthy, he is a wrecking ball. He's just.

[Max Kellerman]

And he was good to le tonight.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. First of all, Philly could have laid down. They could have went to Boston and laid down. Nobody expected him to win. Nobody expected. Expected him to win the series. They could have laid down. They didn't. So that. That's the Philly spirit, Right? Philly. You'll get fighters out of Philly. I do believe there's a world where you have to treat Tyrese and Joel like you would like. You would treat two guards, in a sense, to. Where you stagger them a little bit. Because.

[Max Kellerman]

Because you want to run the offense.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. You want to play through them both.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So I think you start the game, they get a. They get a. You know, get a feel. Stagger one play through that guy, bring the other one back, take out that other. And then in the fourth quarter, you know, they.

[Max Kellerman]

They come down doing that is you have 48 full minutes of one of

[Rich Paul]

those guys on the floor. Never go without both of those guys on the floor when healthy.

[Max Kellerman]

And who did I say? Do you remember who I said was the key player for Philly in this series?

[Rich Paul]

Say, Edgecomb.

[Max Kellerman]

It's Edgecomb. Because he has to emerge, like, going into this series, you have to think of him one way coming out. You have to think like, he's been through something. He's. He's grown, and I think he's done that, and he's showing that he has that He's a clutch player.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, they got help from Grimes. They got help from Grimes. What edge Combs shows is, yes, I'm young, but I care.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Every time I see him play, what it says to me is, he actually cares. He's not just happy getting to the NBA, he actually cares. Paul George got off to a good start today. Yeah, Paul George came out the gate, got off to a good start. And so look, if you're Philly, you feel good going home. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

But they will be going home soon.

[Rich Paul]

Well, listen, if you get to a game 7 max, anything can happen.

[Max Kellerman]

True, you get to a game seven, but Noel, I'll say this. When you get to a game seven, the thing that happens is usually in my view, the team with the best player wins.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, that's true, but it's not like, it's not like they, it's not like they, they didn't, Boston didn't play well. Boston made shot after shot after shot.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, every time Philly got close, they made big three after big three. Philly just kept fighting.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

They just kept fighting. And once they got the lead, they held on to.

[Max Kellerman]

And the fact that Embiid can play defense like that in his second game back already is good news.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I think Boston not having a true big or an impactful big. I mean, Vucevic is good. The other guy, not a defender. You know, Kate, he is active and

[Max Kellerman]

he, Kate, a better defender than Vucevich. Vucevich a better offensive player, but you need that guy. Yeah. If they were this, if you could combine them into one player, it'd be a problem.

[Rich Paul]

Like what? Porzingis stretched the floor with the three shoots. It, well, so, you know, but yeah, I think people expect for Boston to win. But I'm telling you, just get into a game seven, anything can happen.

[Max Kellerman]

Meantime, Knicks up on the Hawks. Last I checked, they were up 20 in the fourth quarter. Quarter.

[Rich Paul]

I, I, I figured it'll be tough for the Hawks to go back there and win. Yeah. But I think the Hawks can win game six.

[Max Kellerman]

You really. I don't think so. I think the Knicks close them out.

[Rich Paul]

You do?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I think.

[Rich Paul]

Well, that, but you're from New York.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Knicks. Knicks. 12194 with them.

[Rich Paul]

With, I mean, 123 say the Knicks gonna lose to the Hawks.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I'll say this. They split on the home, at home and on the road both. Right. So that's kind of like even though it's not exactly the same thing. Well, you don't have A series till someone loses at home. Right. Till someone wins on the road.

[Rich Paul]

They both won two games in a row.

[Max Kellerman]

But that's.

[Rich Paul]

They did it different way.

[Max Kellerman]

It's true. But the point is when you come back home and it's knotted 2, 2 effectively it's the same thing as everyone defended home. They didn't. But you still have a chance. All you got to do is defend home and you win.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you still home court advantage back.

[Max Kellerman]

You got it back. So.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And the way the Knicks, the Knicks in the last two games have distanced themselves, it's not like like the last two games. I think class tells over time. Right. And I think it's going to, it's going to. I think it's going to be a six game series. We both said before the series started we anticipate at least six games and I think the Knicks had. Are now rolling. There's no, there's no answer for Cat.

[Rich Paul]

Well, we knew that going in. We knew going but apparently they didn't. Yes, we knew going in where the disadvantage for the, for the series was with the bigs and the Knicks have yet to play at least for stretches. Cat and Mitchell together because we know that's what, what Atlanta lacks. They lack a true big and they also lack a true point guard.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

I think no matter what pick they get in the draft, I can't say that anything outside of the number one pick, they probably go guard.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, we, we think about the Rockets and I thought the key was Van Vliet and Van Vliet wasn't healthy. And so this is what's happened to the Rockets. Now I think about Detroit needing another guy who can get his own shot and set up teammates. Right. I think about the same thing here. It's the same thing here. You need, you need another guy. I mean they had him in Trey Young, but it wasn't working. You need a guy where it's not just jj.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. I think they go a guard with size. Like if you can find a guy.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, that'd be great if they could

[Rich Paul]

6, 5, 6, 6 guard with size because. Because I like, I like their wings

[Max Kellerman]

because then you can't hunt them on defense and. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And I do, I like big. Oh.

[Max Kellerman]

But I do think JJ can still run some point if you.

[Rich Paul]

Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I do think you can add another big too. Those.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Big would be at a big.

[Max Kellerman]

They need a. They're too.

[Rich Paul]

They need like a 6 11, 7 foot guy.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

And meantime we saw what. Okay, so you think it's a seven game series?

[Rich Paul]

I think it goes seven, I think

[Max Kellerman]

it's six, and the Knicks win in six. I think Cat just takes over now. I'm hoping anyway.

[Rich Paul]

And then this is what I know you're hoping.

[Max Kellerman]

Let's talk about the Lakers for a second. We see what happened with Embiid. It took, and we don't know how consistent he can consistently. He can do this, but first game he was effective offensively, but it kind of ruined the team offense. Next game, he's effective offense on both ends of the floor, and people are more in sync. The team is working and they win. They win the upset. And Austin Reaves coming back to the Lakers is super interesting to me for a game five, because it looked to me like LeBron in game four was finally like, all right, I'm 41 years old, there's a lot of work. We're on the road anyway. We're already up 3, 0. We'll close them out. We'll close them out in LA. But it's not just that. They also have to reintegrate Austin Reeves,

[Rich Paul]

which I think is easy, though I think Austin's one of those players to where, look, I think what they were missing in that game for was exactly what Austin brings to the table. And that's another guy who could initiate the offense in the pick and roll.

[Max Kellerman]

Good for a guy like Jackson Hayes. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Great for a guy like Jackson Hayes and great for a guy like LeBron. Because at 24, LeBron could do that all day long. 25, hell, I think when they went and played, when they played Boston in 2018, what was he? 34. Yeah, 34. So 30 to play 47 minutes. Game six, 48 minutes. Game seven, he could play 48 minutes if you need him to.

[Max Kellerman]

But, but game seven.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but game seven, six. But, but, but, but Austin coming back, it helps. It gives you another playmaker.

[Max Kellerman]

You would think. And you would also think that Austin Reeves can run the pick and roll with LeBron rolling 100%.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

That I would like to see. Because what has happened, and I see the way you look at the game and you make adjustments, as you see it, like a coach, right? So early in the seasons, like LeBron can just be super Karl Malone, where he's a higher iq, better overall Karl Malone guy, and why can't that work? But what we saw was at least Luca's style of offensive play is not conducive to other guys getting hot, right? It's. It's too Luca centric and Maybe the idea and what the Lakers seem to have found early in the rocket series is LeBron running the point really pays dividends. But I wonder what it will look like if they do what you suggested about, you know, super Karl Malone with Austin Reaves.

[Rich Paul]

And it'll look like it looked the night leading up to last year before the trade. They were rolling.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

AD got hurt, he went down and Austin was on ball. LeBron was on ball. They took turns.

[Max Kellerman]

Is that a big thing to do when you're up 3:1, you just want to put your foot on their neck and. And Austin is just coming back now?

[Rich Paul]

No, because you're coming back. You're coming back without having to change much. You're coming back to what's needed. Like we talked about. Oh, they're finding something. LeBron being on the ball. Well, he was only not on the ball because you had two primary guys that were actually on the ball. So now that makes him the third guy. But in this case, you, you're getting one of those guys back. So you still need it, which helps if you're, if, if LeBron's setting the ball screen with Austin coming off.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

You can't really go under because he can really shoot the ball.

[Max Kellerman]

He can.

[Rich Paul]

Right. You're not going to blitz him because he's throwing it back to lj, who is. Who's rolling as a secondary playmaker is the best in the world.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Forget about it.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. That's why it should have worked better with the three of them. Because. Because LeBron as should be the secondary playmaker with Luca on point. It just didn't work.

[Rich Paul]

But, but remember, he was more in a corner versus setting.

[Max Kellerman]

Right? That's true. Right.

[Rich Paul]

In this case, he's setting the screen. So now when he's rolling, you have Canard, Hachimura and Aiden and. Or. For. Yeah, Aiden and or Jackson Hayes in the dunker spot. So now you just have to. Now guys just have to make shots.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

That's it. Guys have to make sure.

[Max Kellerman]

And you're forcing the defense to make choices and none of them are great.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, because with those guys, with those guys out now you have Vando in the corner, which. Yeah, he's. He, he. Can he make a three point shot? Yes, but you're not asking him to shoot threes. He's there for energy defense, etc, slashing, extra possession. 50. 50 balls.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, Reeves Canard and Hachimura are.

[Rich Paul]

That's good.

[Max Kellerman]

Very capable.

[Rich Paul]

That's good shooting of his, by the way. Now it helps you with Marcus Smart. Because now if you take out a canard or you take out a.

[Max Kellerman]

You got a six men, you're bringing in a Smart.

[Rich Paul]

So you. So it actually helps.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, that's. By the way, that's one of the main reasons I like LeBron on ball was if they get healthy and Marcus Smart can come off the bench as a sixth man, now you really got something.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And Marcus, he's a good catch and shoot guy.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So he's adding more shooting.

[Max Kellerman]

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[Max Kellerman]

Vladi Divak had some thoughts about how agents. Well, I look at what, what Vladi had to say and you said the

[Rich Paul]

agents have too much control. Like, explain that to, to the audience. Like, like, why do they have too much control?

[Vladi]

Because they, like, for example, I'm not going to name it, but I wanted to trade one player. And to be honest, you know, I wanted to tell that player what I'm gonna do. I don't want him to be surprised, right? So obviously you communicate in those kind of, you know, you communicate with the players every day about the basketball, about the business. You go through the agent, right? So I call the agent and tell him what I'm gonna do. So he calls and he asked me, where are you gonna trade him? And I tell him. So he calls other team, other GM and threatened like, you know, if you make a dead deal, you know, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna resign, you know, so he kills my deal. You know what I mean? And then I had to go back to that GM and take a little bit less of the deal to make a deal. Right. But the condition is don't tell anybody.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Vladi]

The players has to realize they are working for them, not players, for the agency. You know what I mean? But they don't realize that.

[Rich Paul]

No, they don't. I've had to tell a number of players that, you know, who.

[Vladi]

Who's working for who, Exactly.

[Rich Paul]

Max is so much in this clip.

[Max Kellerman]

You got.

[Rich Paul]

It is so much.

[Max Kellerman]

I can imagine you got a lot to say.

[Rich Paul]

So much in this clip. Clip. First of all, let me say this is it.

[Max Kellerman]

Is this get rich quick?

[Rich Paul]

This is a get rich quick because. No, this is. This is a get rich quick, but this is a behind the scenes.

[Max Kellerman]

Take us behind the scenes.

[Rich Paul]

This is not like behind the scenes. So Vladi actually said something that both things could be true. When you are coming up on a trade, normally what happens is the general manager of the team that's trading your player out 99% of the time would notify you because you know the rubber has met the road. And in most cases, you have a report that is pretty, I would say, cordial with one another. Like, it's positive. It's a positive thing. So he did right by having a common courtesy of telling the agent. The agent, though, also did right by letting the team know that, hey, you can trade for him all you want, but we're not going to resign there. That's the right thing for the agent to do. He's being honest with him now. It's not the agent's fault that the general manager goes back and say, hey, because the guy told me this, you got to lessen the deal. That's not the agent's fault. Right. That's the general manager being a good general manager, and that's gamesmanship.

[Max Kellerman]

It's just. Actually, it's just the rational thing to do.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, the rational thing to do.

[Max Kellerman]

Based on what you know about the

[Rich Paul]

market now, you could say that doesn't matter. This is what I want. If you want this player, it's up to you to keep them there. Regardless of what the agent says, it's up to you to keep them there. Great. Masai did it right. You know, Masai had every threat in the world that. That Kawhi wasn't signing back in Toronto.

[Max Kellerman]

He did it in Major League Baseball. The Yankees packaged up some good players for Juan Soto. They brought him to New York knowing he might not resign. They thought they would resign him, though, and he didn't. And he didn't resign. Yes, that's the way it goes.

[Rich Paul]

But. But you're. You're trading for that player because you think you can win right then and there in most cases in a situation like that. So in Kawhi's case, they won a championship. No harm, no foul. Okay, fine. Where. I think if it's true, and I don't know, I'm glad he didn't mention names, because I would never talk on it if he did mention names. But going into the media and trashing a general manager, I would never do that. Do that. Like, that's not. You shouldn't do that. And obviously, I've been on hostile calls and whatever, but that's just one thing that you. You should not do. Sure. So that's that.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, that depends what kind of person you are. If you're the kind of person who values their reputation, wants to keep their side of the street clean, you don't do that. Not everyone's like that. You are. Some, others are. Not everyone is.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, because you have to work with these guys, and these guys are doing their job. Stop. Right. So it's not about power. It's business. These are business transactions that happens twice a year. There's a trade deadline, and then you have free agency. Outside of that, pretty much everyone is on one accord. Right, Right. Trying to take care of guys and win games. Okay, fine. The next thing, though, was pretty interesting. I don't know the gentleman's name, but he said that the players are giving the agents too much power. And then Vladi says, well, that's. They know the agents work for.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I think Byron Scott said that. I think Byron said that.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no. Vladi said it. And then Byron piggybacked on it and said, yeah, I used to have to tell players that all the time. And this is why I always use the term. If you don't value expertise, you're in trouble. First of all, you should have the right agent that you trust.

[Max Kellerman]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

Because the agent is the only guy that actually has your hundred percent best interest. When you talk about a league, that's the league. The league represents the team.

[Max Kellerman]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

Right. Then you're going to have. Obviously, you have your union, which is for the players, but then you have the team, which. The team has multiple players. So if you're coming down to a medical situation. Right. It's you as an agent working with the team. But sometimes you have to separate from team and only focus on client. That's what I mean by that part.

[Max Kellerman]

But if an agent works for multiple people clients. Which he does.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Then sometimes one client's interest there's famously. Who was it? That. Who was it? I'm forgetting the agent. I think the founder of William Morris said. They said, when did you know you have a. You knew you had a conflict of interest? He said, when I signed my second client. So isn't the agent sometimes in a conflicted position?

[Rich Paul]

Yes, you are in a conflicted position. In, in some cases, but not most. Like most people think like if, like I used to get this all the time. Well, Rich, if we sign with you and other agencies use this all the time, even still to this day. Oh well, he has LeBron. He's not going to care about you.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Man, LeBron's 40 years old. Can't get this man off his couch with his family. You think the phone line that rings for LeBron rings for you? That's not true. This man got 20 plus years in the league you just starting. That doesn't make sense. That's discouragement.

[Max Kellerman]

I would also say that this has been my experience. I see it with you. I see it with select guys who've been very successful agents that they manage. Like as a client I've been a client to successfully. You had a great agent, best agent of all time. Like he was. He's the best. But the. And I see you do similar things in this sense as a client of a powerful agent. First of all, they're powerful because they're good at their job. That's where. Yes, but you understand that they have other clients and at times something they may maneuver. The chess pieces among you are one of the chess pieces. But the other clients are too. And you have leverage because they have other clients. And you, you have to recognize that if they know what they're doing. Sometimes it's like that I could have had that job. But you have to trust if your agent's really good. Yes, but he, he's figuring out a way to maneuver all the pieces where a rising tide lifts all boats like this is going to increase the agents leverage with this network in the industry, whatever. And that will come back and benefit me. And probably it doesn't happen that way for all clients all the time. But with really good agents, what you notice is you are constantly benefiting from the way they're moving the pieces around the board.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, another aside, when you first called me about Doing what eventually turned into this. My first thought is, oh, Rich is. Wants to rep me. And I was interested in hearing what you had to say because I see the way you have maneuvered. Like, it's crazy to think, oh, he has LeBron, he's only going to pay attention to him. Actually, that helps you as a client of Clutch because you have relationships due at first to LeBron. Right. All over the league. And because you know how to work the relationships and because people like dealing with you, because you're smart with the way you move the pieces around, that helps the clients.

[Rich Paul]

But that's just.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know if you had any broadcasters at the time, but I was thinking, oh, Rich wants to get into this business.

[Rich Paul]

No, I didn't. But just you speaking from a common sense perspective. But do you know that is the biggest thing used against me? The biggest.

[Max Kellerman]

But it doesn't make any sense.

[Rich Paul]

Of course it doesn't make sense, Max, but we don't work in a situation where sense is made all the time.

[Max Kellerman]

If you know what you're doing and you see a powerful agent who's had a track record of success and they have an extremely powerful client and they're interested in representing you, the fact that they have that extremely powerful client will serve your interests.

[Rich Paul]

But here's the thing.

[Max Kellerman]

In the long run, that's going to serve you because their relationships all over the place. They have leverage all over the place.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I would say for me, that is pushed back against. For them.

[Max Kellerman]

It's justified for them. Who's them?

[Rich Paul]

The establishment.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, I see. Well, I once made this comment about you when they were trying to come up with a Rich Paul rule in college. I was. It was on first take. And I said when they had.

[Rich Paul]

When they had Anthony Davis or LeBron or Zach Levine or whoever, it was justified.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

When Rich has those. Those level of players, it's all. It's, you know.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

They're not going to pay attention to you. He has his own shoe. He's.

[Max Kellerman]

This is the issue with being. And this is what I said on first take. Young Black.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And Rich Paul. That was the line.

[Rich Paul]

No, it is. No, seriously.

[Max Kellerman]

And it is like it is. I'm not saying that because you're my guy. I'm saying that because it's obvious.

[Rich Paul]

But, Max, many people think. And I see it all the time, and again, I'm blessed. I have no complaints. But many people think, oh, you represent this one guy. Everyone comes to you because of that guy. No, that's not true. I can say in different instances for all the guys that I represent. And it's a lot of them and I. And. And I think the world of these guys because I know what they had to fight off to make the decision to allow me to represent them. I know the type of people they are and what they had to fight off. And so I don't look at them as just my clients or our clients. I look at the human being and understand that that person. That person has a different mentality. Because I know what they had to fight off. Trust me when I tell you I know what they had to fight off. I see it every day. And still to this day, I mean, there's all type of things. But I also take it as respect too. When people say certain things.

[Max Kellerman]

It's just, of course, if they bother to down you, that means they see you as a threat.

[Rich Paul]

I respect the. But I never do it back. It's not my style.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that was interesting. I was going to say something about.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. The Byron Scott loyalty.

[Max Kellerman]

The Byron Scott loyalty thing.

[Rich Paul]

But again,

[Max Kellerman]

he said there used to be loyalty and always in the old days, human nature was totally different. And now I'm skeptical of that. But Rich, if there is truth to it. You ever see Gangs in New York with Daniel day Lewis and DiCaprio Scorsese movie. There's a scene where Daniel Day Lewis has the American flag over him and he's talking to DiCaprio how he had fought with his father and his father, he had won. And Daniel Day Lewis couldn't look at him when he was ready to get killed. Right. But then his father spared him. Caprio's father had spared him. He said he went and he cut out his own eye. Because the eye that looked away, he like he cut out his own eye. And that made him stronger. And he came back and fought DiCaprio's father and beat him and killed him. And he always honored his father because he felt like that was the one dude I ever killed that was worth remembering. Right. Because. And then at another point in the movie, as the world is changing because we're going into like post industrial America, Daniel Day Lewis says civilization is crumbling. They're literally building civilization. But to him it feels like no civilization's crumbling. And that's because the Industrial Revolution. Yes, I'm talking about this on a sports show, really replaced a code of ethics where it's man to man, where it's about accruing honor and avoiding shame. It replaced that with a rule of law and the Rule of law feels impersonal and brutal to someone from that other world. That's Byron Scott. That's Byron Scott. He's Daniel Day Lewis saying that in the sense that in the old days in the NBA, it was a mom and pop operation. Of course, it wasn't the same kind of big business. So if. If he's right, and he's not just doing the thing that old people do, like me, by the way, where they're like, yeah, back in my day, and, you know, back in your day, it was the same as right now. Human nature is the same, motherfucker. What are you talking about? Right? Like, there was no magical old days where everyone was different. Everyone's always the same. But if that. If that's not the case and he's remembering it right, which. Listen, Byron Scott, I believe what he says then he's reacting to the fact that the NBA is a big, legit, multinational business now. It's not run like a mom and pop store anymore.

[Rich Paul]

No, no. And. And I always go back to when I hear a player be like, oh, well, such and such isn't. He can't be considered this because he didn't play for one team his entire career. You know what that's like? I mean, how crazy does that sound? I see every day, this person just got a new job. They're now the CEO of Open AI or they're now the CEO of, you know, YouTube or whatever. And they used to. Hell, look at Tom Ford. Tom Ford used to be the. You know, the creative director of Gucci.

[Max Kellerman]

No, Gucci.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, right. And then he. So you mean to tell.

[Max Kellerman]

He directed movies and stuff, right?

[Rich Paul]

He directed movies. But you mean to tell me that Tom Ford can only stay as the creative director of Gucci and he shouldn't have went and created Tom Ford.

[Max Kellerman]

Look, there are some players on rodeo today, and Patrick Ewing has even said recently he should have retired as a Nick. That's Patrick Ewing. I get it, Vladi. Byron Scott went to a couple other teams after the Lakers.

[Rich Paul]

And Byron, of course he did.

[Max Kellerman]

Byron's that dude. But like that thing about wanting to only wear one uniform, that is true

[Rich Paul]

for players in the event I was put in the position to where I only had to play for one team because the powers that be consistently placed talent around me that gave me a chance of winning night in and night out, finishing my year in June every year with a realistic chance of winning. Then, of course, I would stay if

[Max Kellerman]

LeBron James would have been drafted into the league by Sam Presti. On a team like Oakley okc, he wouldn't have had to go to Miami.

[Rich Paul]

But giving him no shots, because here's what would have happened. And I always say this, like, if I know what I know now, back then, you're looking at it. Okay, 03. LeBron comes into the league. Okay, listen, fan base, we're excited to have LeBron James. He's Ohio's own. You all watched him play and grow up. We're excited to have him. We're going to use this time to play through mistakes. We're going to be exciting. We're not going to win a championship, but we're going to be excited. We're going to build great habits down the road. You have to say this to the fan base, but internally, guys, who's coming?

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, well, there's a young man named Kevin Durant. He's happened to be 7:1 with guard skills and shoot like Reggie Miller. He's coming. Oh, Dwight Howard, a powerful big man. Drop step, you know, jump out the gym. Yeah. A windshield. Human windshield wiper off the glass.

[Max Kellerman]

Shoulders go from one backboard to the other.

[Rich Paul]

He's coming. Like you have all these guys coming down the, the draft lane that is there. Wouldn't it say to you, you know what, let's plan these things out and sit down and have a lunch with LeBron and say, look, Brian, we're gonna play this thing out. Yeah, it's gonna be rough on you, play through mistakes. We don't want you to pick up too many bad habits because we're trying to create winning ways.

[Max Kellerman]

So you get a veteran.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you get a veteran in there at the end of the bench except, etc, play a little bit whatnot. But we're gonna sacrifice these next three, four years. But then we're gonna have.

[Max Kellerman]

Because we're trying to set up for

[Rich Paul]

10 years of winning.

[Max Kellerman]

Right? But that sacrificing the next two, three years is not the same as tanking, is it?

[Rich Paul]

No, that's not tanking.

[Max Kellerman]

Building something, that's not tanking.

[Rich Paul]

That's not tanking because when you look at what press he did with Shea, that's. That's exactly what happened.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. By the way, there's a process and not that every sport's the same. I remember the Yankees dynasty of the, you know, by the mid-90s, you could see they had certain prospects. They had to wait to see which ones are going to stick, which ones aren't going to be as good. We should trade this one. He's good, but he's not great. This one. Bernie Williams. We got to keep. Mariano Rivera. We got to keep. We might trade someone else, you know,

[Rich Paul]

and don't get me wrong, there's a lot of guys that listen, James Harden was. Was. Was coming to the league. Derrick Rose was coming through the league. There's a lot of guys that was there. A guy like J.R. smith the first time around, right? Guy was shooting 50 foot jump shots in the McDonald's game.

[Max Kellerman]

Plus, J.R. smith's highlight reel is superstar.

[Rich Paul]

But think about the dunks and everything. But think about coming out in the draft. If you place J.R. smith next to from day one, right?

[Max Kellerman]

His career's different. This episode's brought to you by McDonald's. Level up your day with the under $3 menu at McDonald's. A sausage McMuffin for just a dollar fifty. And when it's time for lunch, grab a McDouble. Only 250 McValue makes sure you can power up without losing too many coins. A $50 sausage McMuffin or 250McDouble. Now that's a legendary drop. Get even more value with MC value only at McDonald's. I get to do this because I'm doing a McDonald's read, but how do I do limited time only? Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher for delivery.

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[Rich Paul]

You think Orlando wins? Close them out.

[Max Kellerman]

I think so. I mean, Cade's turning the ball over a lot. Cade's one of my favorite players in the league. I think he's great. I think he's a legit superstar. I think he needs a little more help there. You were the guy who said at the trade deadline, detroit is a player and a half away. And when you look at who got moved at the trade deadline, you shouted out IO the other day, right? And who Detroit did not wind up with. Rich, there's. There's two. There's a fork in the road if you're Detroit. And one decision is, hey, let's stay the course. Let's see what we have. Let's let's analyze, you know, what we need, etc. Let's not be too hasty. We're a very young team. And the other which I would have preferred for Detroit is. Yo, let's be a year or two early right now.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Let's get aggressive.

[Rich Paul]

Because sometimes you get into a space to where you could not want to. Not want to mess things, screw it up.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

But. But then you have to really look at it and say, but really, in reality, although we're the number one team in the east, we're actually not good enough.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Not to win at all. Because when the game slows down, we have to have optionality alongside of our bench from a depth perspective to give us the ability to fight any style of fight. What Detroit is missing, you have Durant, right? During Jay.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, if they had Durant. What they're missing is if they had Durant. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

No, you have Durant, Jaden Doran, you have Kate and then you have things. I love a Sar. Right. So you. You don't need. You don't really need.

[Max Kellerman]

They had a de' Aaron Fox or. Or if they had a Fred Van Vliet, if they had a couple of clutch. Right. If they had.

[Rich Paul]

I don't want to mention players I represent. Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

They had a Drew Holiday. What they need is or.

[Rich Paul]

Or another.

[Max Kellerman]

Or.

[Rich Paul]

Or a Wing that can actually shoot the ball.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. But it would be good for them to have a playmaker who.

[Rich Paul]

Well, we talked. No, we talked about this. Remember what we said?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

We said you needed a backup point guard.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, right. Yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

That could play starter minutes and finish games.

[Max Kellerman]

Who did you.

[Rich Paul]

And then another guy that can make shots.

[Max Kellerman]

It was a good pull you had. Who did you.

[Rich Paul]

It was dejante.

[Max Kellerman]

Dejante.

[Rich Paul]

That's what I said.

[Max Kellerman]

Just a guy like.

[Rich Paul]

In other words, I said a guy

[Max Kellerman]

like a realistically acquirable.

[Rich Paul]

A guy like that.

[Max Kellerman]

And by acquire piece, what does that mean? He's already changed teams once or twice. And when you look at what he was moved for. Oh, that's not a bad asking price. And when you look at what he gets paid. Oh, we can do that.

[Rich Paul]

You can. We talked about if you had the type of player that could guard. This is a little bit. This was months ago. Could score a little bit now. That gives you the option to put cade at the 3 sometimes. Right. You know, so.

[Max Kellerman]

And someone who Zach Low was talking about incessantly, at least every time I saw a clip was Markkanen when it looked like, hey, is you talking a guy like Laurie Markkanen.

[Rich Paul]

Well, that. That adds a different component.

[Max Kellerman]

No, right. But I'm saying you have a guy like that, plus you have a backup. Like the backup point guard's the easy thing to get.

[Rich Paul]

You know, you would think. Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. If you get a back good backup point guard, a guy like Markkanen, you're going to. You could win the championship right now.

[Rich Paul]

Or you get a starting point guard that can play off the ball and on the ball when you stagger things. But also you. I just think, look, a secondary, a secondary score that can. That can make a play, but that can really shoot the ball from 38 to 40, from three. Because that's what they're missing, right? Yeah, that's what they're missing. But they'll. Look, Trajan's great.

[Max Kellerman]

Who they got. They got hurt like they tried to. They tried.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but Herder, But. But Herder is a different type of guy. And, And, And Duncan Robinson, those are actual shooters. Right, but remember, and we. LeBron used to go through this all the time. The specialist works in the regular season. When it comes to the playoffs, they run those guys off the line. So you can have one of them,

[Max Kellerman]

but you can't run the guys off the line. And then they hunt them on the other side. Yes.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, we'll get some emails. Yeah, let's do some emails.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, well, wait a minute. Before we do that.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You picking the. You picking the Magic to close it out?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. You know what? I said this on the. On the pod the other day. If you look at the Magic and they're finally figuring it out, Right. Because a lot of people like them. Preseason.

[Rich Paul]

What I like about the magic, 76, 55 spurs.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, what. What I like about the Magic is all five players. I think I do this in every sport. I first I look like in the important. Like, how many league average players do you have starting? Right? Yeah. They don't have a single guy below league average in their starting lineup.

[Rich Paul]

The Magic starting line, Suggs Wagner. Banchero.

[Max Kellerman]

What's his name? Bang the center.

[Rich Paul]

Desmond Bang.

[Max Kellerman]

Wendell.

[Rich Paul]

Wendell Carter.

[Max Kellerman]

Wendell Carter. Like, you take a guy like Wendell Carter, even in the really good player, it's like his floor is very high. You knew he was going to be a good NBA player. Everyone you just named is minimum league average at their position. Several of them are clearly above league average at their position. Yes, That's a good team. The issue so far is Bankero is a good player, but he was drafted number one overall. When you do that, you're hoping you have the best player on a championship team. I think he's maybe the second best player on a championship team.

[Rich Paul]

Bank hero.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, maybe so. That's hard.

[Rich Paul]

It's young still.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, he's very young.

[Rich Paul]

He's very young.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Like Cade. Consecutive drafts, first overall pick. Both big guys like who can do things. Cade to me looks like he can be the best player on a championship team. I'm not saying he has to score the most. I think he could be the best.

[Rich Paul]

No, you're saying from an impact perspective he would be the best player. Yeah, he could be.

[Max Kellerman]

I think so. I think he can. And Ben Caro. The jury is out.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I look at him as two different players. Obviously, you know, naturally Paolo's gonna, he's gonna score the ball, right? Yeah. Where Cade, even if you go back to his high school days, it's not

[Max Kellerman]

what he does first.

[Rich Paul]

No, he was a really. He could have averaged 30, by the way. This is not to.

[Max Kellerman]

This is LeBron too. LeBron winds up scoring so much in spite of his nature. He scores so much because he's so good at scoring. He might as well like there's no way to avoid it. But that's not his first instinct.

[Rich Paul]

No, his first instinct is to get.

[Max Kellerman]

Is to get the whole team going. It's a big night in the NBA with the Lakers trying to knock the Rockets out in game five. I got you covered with my picks on FanDuel and all playoffs long. FanDuel is your spot to bet your fans favorite player props and SGPs with the best pricing in the game. All right, here's mine of course but like let's construct a four leg parlay here and take I think a sure thing plus eight I considered but plus six at the. LeBron's going to have. He's running the offense. He's going to have at least six assists. Luke Kennard plus two threes. Kennard is much more confident, especially at home. You saw in these playoffs, he's putting up 27, 23 points. I think one of the best three point shooters ever. LeBron knows he needs him. Even with Austin Reaves back. I like him to hit at least two threes. Marcus Smart 11 1/2 points. Been watching Marcus Smart play at home for the Lakers. They need offense. It can't just be LeBron and Reaves and a couple of threes from Canard, maybe one or two from Hachimura. Marcus Smart's going to have to score. I like him to score at least 12 points. And Jackson Hayes five and a half points. I like the over. I mean especially with Reaves back. I think that gives Hayes more opportunities to roll to the basket. More pick and roll opportunities at least three times. Yeah. Jackson Hayes at least six points. So the total parlay is plus 527. I know it's not like the most incredible odds for a four leg parlay but I like each one. I went conservative here. The bets will be live in the FanDuel app. Don't forget to check out the great generosity. They'll have all playoffs as well. FanDuel play your game. You ready to do emails?

[Rich Paul]

Let's do it. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Love the pod. Writing from the Annapolis Valley, Nova Scotia, Canada Wanted to ask Max what he thinks of Ryan Riziki. What will he bring to Zufa boxes? So Riziki is this guy Rich? Actually it's a good thing for him to bring. Riziki is this guy not a lot of defense. All he cares about is winging shots. He is coming at you. He's going to take some shots to give his own. And he's what would be described throughout boxing history as a great TV fighter. He is going to be in some wars and cruiserweight like pretty big guy. That's right below heavyweight, above light heavy. And yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing him fight. He's going to be a lot of fun to watch fight. You want to do the next one?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. What's the next one? Max and Rich, which major team sport does the number of rings won affect the player's legacy the most and the least. Thanks for the phenomenal podcast. Donnie Howard from Tennessee I think football

[Max Kellerman]

matters the least with rings unless you're the quarterback. Right. But when you're evaluating a linebacker or

[Rich Paul]

running back, if you got one ring it's fine.

[Max Kellerman]

Or if you have none, it's just like he's just. You know how many great quarterback Barry Sanders never sniffed the ring but but is frequently cited as the best running back in the modern era.

[Rich Paul]

That's right.

[Max Kellerman]

It's NFL and and and I think NBA, you need the rings the most, right?

[Rich Paul]

NBA, you need the rings the most. Well, baseball used to be that way, but now it is. Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Dude, I'm telling you, when I was a kid the arguments because they were both gone by by then, out of the league by then. But the arguments I used to hear from the old timers like my dad and different people talking Russell Chamber, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain in every statistical way. Wilt was twice as good. But everyone rode with Bill Russell because he won all the time.

[Rich Paul]

It's not the rings in the NBA. It used to be, but it's not no more. All right, the Rock. Here's the thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

The Rockers are going to roll the Lakers. Max Kellerman.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, yeah. In other words, that's a quote from me.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Rockets are going to roll the Lakers. He capitalizes.

[Rich Paul]

The Lakers aren't. Aren't championship. Championship contenders. Rich Paul. Yeah, you guys said everything from trade, Austin Reeves. So there's no starting caliber player on the Lakers. And here they are up 3 to 1 on the Houston Rockets. Now you guys want to change the narrative to LeBron this and I got cut off. Yeah. Something that the Lakers team has been competing with without Braun AR and or Luca during stretches. LeBron isn't doing it all by himself. The team is performing as a cohesive unit. From Marcus Smart to Rui to Luke, they all have contributed in a major way.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, first of all, I want to respond to this. And then you respond, first of all, I did not know Kevin Durant was going to be available. Really. I mean, he played the whole game, but he was Kevin Durant for one half of that game. I did not understand that, number one. Number two, you are right about, like feeling a certain kind of way. I completely dismissed the Lakers chances. Even though even had Durant been healthy, this would have been a much more interesting series than I thought and I saw. I'll give him that. I'll say this, though, about what he said about LeBron. When he says LeBron isn't doing it all by himself, of course. Performing as a cohesive unit from Marcus Mart to read a Luke. They've all contributed a major way. That completely misses the point. If you took LeBron James off this team. Wait a minute. And replaced him with a good player. Good player. Not a superstar, but replace him with a good player, a point forward. Replace him with a. Jalen Johnson's really good.

[Rich Paul]

Don't use Jalen Johnson. Use someone else.

[Max Kellerman]

Too good. Jalen Johnson. Too good.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I'm just saying he's.

[Max Kellerman]

If you replace. Yeah, that's true. He's not like league average replacement. He's an all star. If you replaced LeBron James just with a point forward, a standard issue guy, you think you'd be talking about Marcus Smart and Rui Hachimura and these guys, they would never be in a position for their contributions to matter because you wouldn't be winning any games.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And I think, look, I think people, obviously the man's a fan, so that's fine.

[Max Kellerman]

He has a right to say. He has a right to say eat some crow because of what we said.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. He has a right to say we

[Max Kellerman]

gotta eat a little crow.

[Rich Paul]

And. And. And again, we don't need to beat a dead horse here. The Lakers are up 3:1. They got to finish it out. Good show. Let's get some pizza.

[Max Kellerman]

Pizza? I can't do pizza. Gotta walk on the beach and stuff. I'm gonna have pizza. I just said pizza. I gained two pounds.

[Rich Paul]

I can't win with this guy. All right, all right.

[Max Kellerman]

I'll see you on Friday. 21 and over in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincut or visit mdg.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit Gambling Help MA. Org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.

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[Rich Paul]

What's up? It's your girl, Jess. Hilarious. Co host of the Breakfast Club and now author and narrator of Til Death Do We Parent, my audiobook about the challenges of creating a healthy co parenting relationship and lessons learned on life's journey. Til Death Do We Parent is available on Spotify or wherever audiobooks are sold.