Giannis Leaving Milwaukee, Michael Malone in Chapel Hill, and Are Low Tops Causing Too Many Injuries? | Game Over

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: Giannis Leaving Milwaukee, Michael Malone in Chapel Hill, and Are Low Tops Causing Too Many Injuries?

Host: The Ringer

Date: April 8, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this packed episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dive deep into some of the most pressing and nuanced stories in the sports world:

• The increasingly tense situation between Giannis Antetokounmpo and the Milwaukee Bucks, and how shoe deals and player movement factor into superstar decisions.
• The University of North Carolina's bold hiring of NBA champion coach Michael Malone, and the evolving landscape of college sports coaching.
• The ongoing debate on whether the prevalence of low-top sneakers in basketball is tied to the league’s rising injury rates.
• An insightful discussion about player expectations, generational talents (spotlighting Cooper Flagg), and the changing nature of representation in sports.
• Listener questions on rivalries, the best talents never to be the #1 player, shoe technology, and breaking into the agent business.

The show maintains its distinctive mix of insider stories, high-level analysis, humor, and an unvarnished look at the money and culture that shape elite sports.

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Key Topics & Conversations

Giannis, The Bucks, & The Shoe Deal Dilemma

[08:09 - 25:29]

• Giannis' Situation with the Bucks: Max and Rich break down the complications coming to a head in Milwaukee, especially how off-court factors like shoe deals enter the equation.

  • Many shoe contracts include proration clauses—athletes’ earnings depend on games played.
  • Antetokounmpo could reportedly lose millions if the Bucks bench him for the end of the season.
  • Rich explains:

    "Some shoe deals are like, you have to play 62 games minimum. Some are slotted—65, 55, 45. If you play less, it gets docked. That's why all-star games, it doesn't say you make the all-star. It says you play in the all-star." (09:30 - Rich Paul)

• Superstar Tension and Team/Loyalty Dynamics:

  • Milwaukee has never had a player as beloved or integral as Giannis; he’s become a character in the city’s story.
  • Protracted drama ("smoke") over Giannis’ future strains both sides and damages trade leverage.
  • Rich draws from his experience with Anthony Davis:

    "Sometimes you just have to rip the band-aid off ... Knowing it’s probably the right thing to do. It doesn’t get any better. It only gets worse." (15:03 - Rich Paul)

  • Max empathizes from a fan's perspective, comparing Giannis to Saquon Barkley in New York.

• Agent/Team Negotiations:

  • Rich emphasizes transparency with teams about clients’ intentions, citing how he handled AD’s trade request.
  • Importance of credibility and being "on the record" as a power agent.

    "You have to do business with all 30 teams. ... I'm always straightforward. Which was, you know, I put the—I was the guy putting this—there was no more sources. I put my name on everything." (24:22 - Rich Paul)

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UNC Hires Michael Malone: The College-Pros Coaching Revolution

[26:44 - 34:10]

• Malone to Chapel Hill: UNC hires NBA champion Michael Malone for $8.3M/year.

  • Max notes the shift: With NIL and the transfer portal, pro-style coaches are a fit for today’s “quasi professional” college athletes.
  • Rich outlines the advantages Malone brings as a pro coach and the new keys to college coaching success:

    "He's gonna be able to go into a living room and tell a kid and his family, ‘Hey, I know what it looks like at the next level. I can help you get there.’" (28:01 - Rich Paul)

  • Modern staff must include connectors/relationship-builders; the "father figure" is less vital with more players from two-parent households.
  • Max and Rich consider how the economics of college basketball may entice more pro talent (coaches and players) to stay/return.

• Big Picture Takeaways:

  • Programs like UNC sustain success by demanding excellence—sometimes firing within the family, but not shying away from bold hires.
  • Discussion about which college rivalries reign supreme leads both to agree:

    "Michigan–Ohio State is the biggest rivalry in college sports, regardless of sport." (35:19 - Rich Paul)

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Cooper Flagg, Generational Talents, and Rookie Expectations

[36:44 - 50:56]

• Cooper Flagg’s Ascent: Max goes on record with an audacious take:

  "Cooper Flagg is gonna be the best player in basketball, and it's gonna happen soon." (38:08 - Max Kellerman)

  • He compares Flagg favorably in trajectory to past teen phenoms, saying his all-court skill set and competitive fire are extraordinary.
  • Rich agrees on Flagg’s promise but cautions about expectations:

    "He just plays the game the right way. ... His feel for the game is there." (41:07 - Rich Paul)

  • Flagg is learning daily alongside Kyrie Irving and Jason Kidd, expanding his ‘bag’ of skills and basketball IQ.
  • Max and Rich reflect on what makes someone the best—is it performance, winning, or “basketball genius” (e.g., LeBron, Magic, Jokic)?

    "There are some basketball geniuses ... and then other people...just the best players." (43:07 - Max Kellerman)

• Expectations for Generational Prospects:

  • How many players enter with pressure to win immediately? Wemby, LeBron, Shaq, and (with caveats) Garnett are cited as rare cases.
  • Max pushes that Flagg—if healthy and supported—will inevitably win, suggesting he could surpass Luka Doncic in impact:

    "No matter what you do, that dude will be in the playoffs." (45:21 - Max Kellerman)

  • Both hosts praise Flagg’s competitive nature and moxie, noting how some prospects face more immediate championship expectations based on their context (team, draft spot).

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NBA: Injuries, Shoes, and Rivalries

[55:10 - 70:05]

• Injuries & Low-Top Sneakers (Listener Email, Julio from Puerto Rico) [68:20]:

  • Fan asks if low-top sneakers increase injury rates.
  • Rich responds:

    "There was a purpose for making high top sneakers. I do think it has something to do with it, but less than the high tops...these kids don't tape anymore." (68:52 - Rich Paul)

  • Orthotics, no-tape habits, and sneaker design trends have all shifted; Max and Rich agree low tops likely contribute, but so does culture and training.
  • The “Kobe's” made low-tops mainstream, but high tops’ ankle support remains relevant.

• Who’s The Best Without Ever Being #1? [64:00]

  • Listener asks for the top players never to be the best in the league.
  • Max’s list: Magic Johnson (!), SGA, Allen Iverson, Charles Barkley, David Robinson.
  • Rich agrees, “I’ll take that five and win.” (68:15 - Rich Paul)

• Other Noteworthy Segments:

  • KD’s “lane-switching”—analogy to Office Space (57:33): KD keeps searching for the right team, but injuries/bad luck (Nets, Suns, Rockets) stall progress.
  • Rockets’ resurgence and playoff outlook—Houston’s energetic, high-scoring run in the absence of some original core pieces.

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Sports Agency & Representation: Breaking In and Staying Relevant

[70:05 - End]

• How to Get Started as a Sports Agent (Listener Q: Cody Blakenberg)
  • Rich’s advice is a mix of nuts-and-bolts, honesty, and tough love:

    "Go work at a restaurant. ... We work in a service industry. ... Start in the service industry because you have to be able to take the brunt of people's day." (71:24 - Rich Paul)

  • Beyond certifications or degrees, it’s all about cultivating relationships, understanding talent, and hustle.
  • Max reframes it: “Get up every day and get to it. ... Sometimes you have to drive all the way across the country to put in a half hour of FaceTime and it doesn’t feel like it’s worth it. But that stuff adds up over time.” (76:11 & 79:25 - Max Kellerman)
  • Rich is adamant: it’s not glamorous, and you have to be "always available" and have "grit" for survival and long-term success.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Giannis' Shoe Deal Drama:

  “Some shoe deals are like, you have to play 62 games minimum. Some are slotted—65, 55, 45. If you play less, it gets docked. That's why all-star games… you play in the all-star.”
  (09:30 – Rich Paul)

• On Protracted Superstar Exits:

  “Sometimes you just have to rip the band-aid off… Knowing it’s probably the right thing to do. It doesn’t get any better. It only gets worse.”
  (15:03 – Rich Paul)

• Building Credibility as an Agent:

  “You have to do business with all 30 teams… I'm always straightforward. Which was, you know, I put my name on everything.”
  (24:22 – Rich Paul)

• On Malone’s College Fit:

  “He’s gonna be able to go into a living room and tell a kid and his family, ‘Hey, I know what it looks like at the next level. I can help you get there.’”
  (28:01 – Rich Paul)

• Cooper Flagg’s Potential:

  “Cooper Flagg is gonna be the best player in basketball, and it’s gonna happen soon.”
  (38:08 – Max Kellerman)

• Comparing Great Player Expectations:

  “No matter what you do, that dude will be in the playoffs.”
  (45:21 – Max Kellerman)

• On the Rise of NBA Injuries:

  “There was a purpose for making high top sneakers… These kids don’t tape anymore.”
  (68:52 – Rich Paul)

• Breaking Into Sports Agency:

  “Go work at a restaurant. ... We work in a service industry. ... The best way to break in is with a bird in hand, having something to bring to the table.”
  (71:24 – Rich Paul)

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Timestamps & Content Guide

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-------------------|-----------------------------------------------------------| | 08:09 - 25:29 | Giannis/Bucks drama, shoe deals, trading superstars | | 26:44 - 34:10 | Michael Malone joins UNC, evolution of college coaching | | 36:44 - 50:56 | Cooper Flagg, Wemby, generational talents, expectations | | 55:10 - 70:05 | NBA injuries, low-top shoes, legacy rivalries, listener Qs| | 70:05 - End | Breaking into sports agency, grit, Max & Rich’s advice |

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Memorable Moments

• Max’s Hot Take on Cooper Flagg: “He’s going to be the best player in the world, and it’s going to happen much sooner than people know.” (38:08)
• How agents keep it real: “You need the grit. I think people think that I just woke up and someone was like, here, LeBron James.” (79:44 - Rich Paul)
• Magic Johnson never being #1?: Max makes the controversial call that Magic was never the best player in the NBA, which even stuns Rich.
• Practical pathways into sports agency: Not internships or law school—Rich says start as a waiter to build resilience and service mentality.

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Style & Tone

The episode features Max’s intellectual, occasionally combative questioning with Rich’s authentic, insider perspective—often funny, always direct, and rich with personal anecdotes and NBA history. Both aren’t afraid to debate, push back, and tease each other, adding humanity and chemistry to their deep-dive coverage.

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Conclusion

A can’t-miss episode for anyone who wants to understand not just what happens on the court, but how the business and human sides of sports intertwine. Whether it’s breaking down Giannis’ crossroads, previewing college basketball trends, or offering “no shortcuts” wisdom about making it in the sports world, Max and Rich are in top form—packed with stories, strategy, and sharp debate.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Max.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You've done it again.

[A]

What I do.

[B]

You look great.

[A]

Well, thank you very much. You as well.

[B]

We are These. You look like a guy off a movie.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which movie colors?

[A]

Hold on. You got.

[B]

You don't know where this is from. You don't know where this is from.

[A]

Yes, I do.

[B]

If you know where this is from, it's because Dean told you, and that's cheating.

[A]

Never.

[B]

Where is this from?

[A]

Gotta be now.

[B]

Dean definitely told you. You did tell him. There's no way he would. There's no way, Wheelchair Chris. There's no way you would know that.

[A]

Wheelchair Rich.

[B]

Two guys are lying. Lying to me in my face right now.

[A]

Yeah. Dead to your face.

[B]

Dean told you. I know. He told you. Yeah. This is inspired from Chris.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Off of Boys in the Hood.

[A]

You're a man of many hats.

[B]

Man of many hats. Yeah. But you.

[A]

Well, you know, we got the email saying that I had the blue felas on. Remember the lady?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She said, what about the tracks?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I had to switch up the. Switch up the. You know. Yeah.

[B]

You couldn't wear the blue with the blue, but you could have. But the white looks a lot better.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So there you go.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Great. I had to ask you a question.

[A]

What's up?

[B]

When people borrow money from you, do you care if they pay you back or you just, like. It's just like.

[A]

You want to really know how that goes.

[B]

Don't pay me back, please.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You know how that goes. What I'll say is, when you start, if you have success in life, people are gonna hit you up. And that's all right. You know, People.

[B]

Yeah. That's fine.

[A]

Because people. Not everyone has the same, you know, resources and it. But what I'll say is.

[B]

I wasn't talking about a lot of money. I was just.

[A]

No, I'm saying. But generally, I'll say this is a gift. This time it's a gift. I'm not. This is not Gonna be another one. But this is a gift. But then. Then it's clean. You don't have to worry about it.

[B]

Yeah, I don't really worry about that. My thing would be if you gave me $20.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't really expect that you think I should pay you back.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because I'm going to take care of you down the road.

[A]

Like, if you were like, max, give me a 20, I need to tip the.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Of course not.

[B]

Yes. But you said at. What. What number is this should be paid back number,

[A]

I think. Okay. If it was you and me, it seems to me like that number would be. When you start talking about g money, then, you know. But otherwise, you're right, because where we would go to eat, if someone covered the bill, that would be.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Then next time the other guy does or however.

[B]

But there is a threshold that you expect somebody to say.

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah, you don't have to put the amount out there. But there is.

[A]

You asked.

[B]

There's a.

[A]

Specifically.

[B]

No, I'm just. There's.

[A]

Take it back.

[B]

No, we should ask the audience what's the. What's the. What's the number that you feel like, okay, you. You don't have to pay me back this. But if we get to here, I expect to be paid.

[A]

See, I'm very aware when we have a conversation like this, that we are talking. You more than me, by the way. But we are. No, I'm just saying, like, how people in this business, in the business that we're in, who reach a certain level. It's Monopoly. It's not the real world. It's not the like. And I don't know. Remember when I. I live in the real world. But no, no but. No, you don't. Not really. I mean, like, it's not that you haven't earned it. You've obviously earned it. But I mean, remember when I said the. I had an issue with the geek squad. Remember that?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I always say, like, I don't know how the working man does it because, like, if I have to be somewhere for an appointment, and I'm like, oh, whatever, and I don't have someone there to cover and someone's coming to hook something. I'm like, all right, the hell with it. I'll stay in the house and they don't show up, and then I have to reschedule and it happens. Something like that. I can take that. It's okay. It's not. If it cost me a little something, it's okay. How's the working man, do it. I don't even. I don't know how the working man pays a speeding ticket.

[B]

They just suggest, I guess.

[A]

But who has. Like, people are living on the. So I'm aware when we have those kind of conversations, what it sounds like to some people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sounds very much spoiled, you know?

[B]

Yeah. No, no, I don't want to sound like. But. But. But I am a working man.

[A]

On the other hand, we shouldn't lie. Like, if. If you talk about your life, sometimes that comes into the conversation inevitably.

[B]

Yeah, it does.

[A]

They don't call them poor, Paul.

[B]

Here's what I'll say to that, Max. I would say there's just certain things that you want to have convenience for.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there are certain lengths in terms of decision making and convenience that you're willing to pay for.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And if you work hard enough to have the capabilities to pay for those things, then you should do it. What you shouldn't do is not do the work and then try to pay for those things.

[A]

You know, the funny thing is, people are like, you know, you feel better if you work for it and you earned it and this and that. To tell you the truth, I'd feel just as good if the money fell out of the sky into my lap. You know what I mean? Oh, that guy just inherited all that money. Yeah. He doesn't deserve it. I'm like, oh.

[B]

I always tell my friends that. That. That come from very wealthy backgrounds. Do not be ashamed. What? Do not be ashamed. I don't care what anyone says.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Now, I will say this. If you. If your character. Yeah. Does not align with your positioning, then that is. If it's lower, then you should be ashamed because character doesn't cost you anything. But.

[A]

Yeah, but it's hard. Your character should be above very wealthy people who inherit money. But I know someone in particular. I won't mention who it is, but who comes from extreme wealth. One of the best people I know. Like, one of the best people that I know.

[B]

I know a few of those people, and that outshines any.

[A]

But I also know people come from that background, and sometimes they'll say something and you're like, come on.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, look, that's part of it, but. You ready to start the show?

[A]

Been ready.

[B]

I have to change your name for the day. You're not Max. You're Max Field.

[A]

First of all, Max, you think I'd have the velour fila tracksuit on and not be ready for this show?

[B]

That is true. That is true.

[A]

Game over. Is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA post season is here and FanDuel knows that the only thing better than watching your favorite team is winning along with them. Let's be honest, FanDuel is the best place to bet the team's players and plays during their playoff run. Build a same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip off. And don't forget, with FanDuel, you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 and over in select states 18 and over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnecticut. Rich, I gotta tell you something.

[B]

What now?

[A]

You were right. You hit this one right on the head.

[B]

I was right? What?

[A]

Giannis could lose millions on his Nike deal. See, for those who aren't familiar, if you're just sampling us right now, Rich Paul can take any topic and turn it into how it affects a shoe deal.

[B]

That was months ago.

[A]

We could talk about anything that's going on in the world. And Richard, have an angle how it relates to a sneaker deal.

[B]

Well, I remember now what you're talking about. That was months ago.

[A]

Giannis could lose millions on a Nike deal if kept. If he. If the bucks hold him out.

[B]

Well, there's only like two games left. But that's what I was trying to explain. Sometimes you. Look, all these shoe deals, number one, are prorated. There's, there's. I can count on. I actually did a deal that had

[A]

no, you know, based on how many games you play.

[B]

Yes, I actually did. Did a deal before that had no proration in it. Which was pretty, pretty cool. For who was it for the first three years? For John Wall? Okay, yeah, but that's unlikely. Very unlikely. And there's probably less than three people that has that in their contract anyway. Because it's just unlikely for everyone else. It's for everyone, even signature athletes. So wait a minute.

[A]

So every time a guy sits out or load manages, he's losing money on a shoe?

[B]

He's not losing money. Unless. Look, some shoe deals are like, you have to play 60, a minimum of 62 games. Some is slotted. Like if you play less than 65, less than 55, less than 45, it's docked. That's why when you watch All Star games, it doesn't say in your shoe deal that you make the All Star team. It says that you Play in the All Stars.

[A]

That's why guys go in for 11 seconds.

[B]

Yes, yes. So in this case, when I saw that, was it a month ago or a month and a half ago, my spidey senses go up. Because normally you're aligned. You're on the same page. Star player and the team is on the same page. In this case, what should happen is there should have been a conversation saying, hey, just so you guys have an understanding, I understand where we are as an organization, but this is where I'm at.

[A]

Or in other words, if you. If Rich Paul has a client and you could see this coming down the pike.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Rich, you will call the GM or the team president or the owner and say, listen, we have an issue that I can see coming. It could be an issue coming up.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Let's talk about it and get this worked out.

[B]

Yes. Because for a guy like that, I could imagine what his base pay is to be prorated. That's not. That's not chump change at all.

[A]

Millions, reportedly.

[B]

Well, there you go. There you go.

[A]

If I'm honest, I'm getting in that game.

[B]

Yeah. Now, here's the thing.

[A]

I'm suiting up. Even if I have to, like, hide behind the bench and jump into the

[B]

game, you have to check in for. Now, here's the thing. At an All Star game, that's easier to do, Max.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it gets a little tricky with the league. It gets a little tricky with the fan base, especially your hometown fan base, where if you check into a game just for that, the athlete can't win in that regard. Because they say, well, you have enough money. It shouldn't matter. No, it doesn't matter.

[A]

Take a little portion of the money, donate it to charity and that's it.

[B]

No, but it does matter. But really, it should be okay. There's a plan. I'm going to play 25 minutes a game, all the way up to this many games. And then given that if the league agrees and the team agrees, because now with all the low management things and so on so forth, you can't just sit a player out. There has to be an actual reason for sitting a player out. So you have to balance that out. But I knew that it wasn't just not wanting to play more to it. Wanting to play. Yeah, I knew. I knew it was more to it for sure.

[A]

So it looks like it's. How do you think this ends between Giannis and the Bucs?

[B]

It's a tough one. The toughest part about these, has there

[A]

been a more before you. I'm trying to think in the history of that town, who's been a more beloved athlete than Giannis in Milwaukee. Yeah. Like Kareem left. Kareem left, Robin Yount, Paul Molitor. Those are great baseball players. They got Puckett's, Minnesota, but Milwaukee and Molotour got to a World Series. They didn't win.

[B]

They didn't win, but they were on a team.

[A]

Harvey's wall bangers in 1982. Right. And they're both hall of Famers. Who. In Milwaukee? What else you got?

[B]

Yeah, they don't have a. Their football team is the packers, so that don't count.

[A]

And, and, and not only that, but in terms of athletes that that town loves. Giannis had a Disney movie made up made about him. And Milwaukee is like a character.

[B]

He won.

[A]

Like, he actually people that woman who gave him a ride to the arena when. When, you know, and he's like, he's jumping in her little car and getting it. Like he's. He's part of the other thing also.

[B]

They watched him grow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He was the 15 pick in the draft.

[A]

He didn't come in a superstar.

[B]

No. He came in very underdeveloped. He developed over time. It's like the perfect story. But in a situation like that, it's a balancing act, for sure. When you're trying to. That's a very. That's. It's like a Faberge egg. That's a very fragile thing to carry around. And there's been smoke for so many years, the last two years, really. Right. And I think it's tough on an organization. Organizations, the whole key to trading somebody is doing it prior to everyone knowing you have to do it. Once you get to that point. Once you get to that point, it just gets.

[A]

Now they have something that's like a devalued asset. Right. Because. Because it. Well, if everyone knows you gotta move them, the price is not the same.

[B]

Well, the way it works is in previous years, it would be you place, and then they fit everyone else around. Now you have to find the perfect fit.

[A]

Right. With the aprons and this. And so. So I'm sorry I interrupted you before. How does it end, do you think, between Giannis and the Bucks?

[B]

Well, there's only two ways it can end. Either a long term, you know, kiss and make up or a move on.

[A]

If I'm Giannis, I'd like to move on. It seems like it's getting ugly though, right? Like, why do you think it's gotten ugly? I know I'm Kind of interviewing you about it. But you have insight into this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Based on.

[B]

You've seen not making it about that necessary situation, but just making it about any situation in that case, sometimes you just have to rip the band aid off, because you prolong it. You prolong it. You prolong it knowing that it's probably the right thing to do. It doesn't get any better. It only gets worse. And the only way it can possibly get better is if you win. But the moment you can look at a roster and say, we really have no chance of winning, you know, right in that moment, it's bound to get worse. Whether it's that day or the day after that or the day after that, you can have. That's the thing. You can have 25 good days in a row and one bad day, but that one bad day outweighs those 25%.

[A]

I could tell you from the point

[B]

of view, especially at that point, of

[A]

a fan of a great player who is on a team that I rooted for, who had no chance, especially back then, it looked so bad, and I didn't want this player to waste their prime. I hated the fact that he went to the Eagles, but I was happy for him that he won a Super Bowl.

[B]

Saquon.

[A]

Saquon.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Saquon Barkley is like, oh, my God, I've never seen it. This is amazing. And he plays for my team. I loved it. Right. But the way the Giants were going at that point, it was like he. You know, running back primes are short. I would hate to see him waste his career. And no one even knew how. People knew he was good. They didn't know how good because the Giants didn't have an offensive line and they didn't have a good receiver to take some pressure off. And they like all these things. They didn't have a great quarterback. And I'm like. Even though he went to a hated rival, I was very happy. So I wonder if people in Milwaukee. I mean, he means more to Milwaukee than Saquon meant to New York, because he's the whole thing in Milwaukee, and he's developed.

[B]

I was gonna say. It's just.

[A]

He delivered them a championship.

[B]

It's two different cities, number one.

[A]

But what I'm saying is I could see. I don't think this will be the majority, but I could see some fans looking at the Bucks going, this ain't it. And we love Giannis, and we understand if he's like, I don't want to spend the last few years of my prime On a losing situation, when.

[B]

When a player has conducted themselves with the. I would say with the integrity and the resilience and the perseverance that Giannis has. He's fought against what many would say was probably the right time to make a move.

[A]

Right. He tried to make it.

[B]

Tried to make it work also.

[A]

And even I'm thinking about that press conference. It went around on social media, and it was someone who asked him a question after they had lost in the playoffs. Do you think it's a failure of a season or something to that effect? I forgot who asked him. And he addressed the reporter by name. Obviously, he has some rapport with the reporter. He didn't like, say, bad. You know, bad. You're the bad guy for asking that question, but he gave such a mature answer about how, you know every year you're not going to have the ultimate success in your life. That doesn't make it a failure. Like, everything about the way he's comported himself in Milwaukee gives him, to me, the kind of equity with the fans to come out. He has the equity and be like, okay, let's. So why won't he just do that?

[B]

He's learned the American culture. But let me tell you something. No player, I. I don't care who they are. None of them like confrontation. They do not want to be.

[A]

They don't want to be the bad guy.

[B]

Yeah, no, no. Very few get to that point to where they are. Okay, being the bad guy. I went through it myself when AD Was traded from New Orleans. The biggest issue that we had was I was saying one thing, but it was so easy because we. When you go into the practice facility, he wakes up a really nice guy. So in the practice facility, he's not putting that on his teammates. He's not. Not speaking to people when they come in, park his car, or he's in the locker room or he's in the meal room. And so from afar, he doesn't look unhappy. He doesn't look unhappy. I know what's going on. And you have to be dependent of someone relaying a message to ownership, saying that, well, his guy is saying he's unhappy, his representation, but really he's fine.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's just, you know, he's just got a new representation. He's trying to make a name for himself, whatever the case may be, whatever you want to call it, he's trying to create value. And so who are they going to believe? Someone that they're paying or someone. But. So you don't know how Serious it is until things either like this happen publicly or in my case, cost me 50 grand. But I had to come out and say, you remember, you were on first take. I had to come out and say, like, no, this is. The rubber has met the road here. And so I thought that was smart

[A]

of you too, though, because it was a very. It was a very straightforward way to deal with things. Like, I think you were doing something there. I've seen this with very skillful operators and executives where they have a way of explaining the situation to everyone where the reason they're dealmakers is because the way they're articulating the message everyone sees actually that's in their best interest. That's how the deal gets done. Right. So the way you explained it, first publicly and then to certain teams who might have wanted to trade for AD what they would give up and how long he would actually be there and all those things, you messaged it in a way where everyone saw it was in their best interest to do it this way. And so everyone got what they wanted. I mean, AD Wound up in the lake on the Lakers. He won a championship.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, in those situations, you can't. Number one, you cannot please everybody. But what you also can do is you can be respectful and be truthful to others. And so the last thing I was going to do was have somebody give up their assets for a maybe.

[A]

Yeah. Because you have to do business with all 30 teams.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Then you're the bad guy or one of the bad guys. And in their eyes, if they overpay for something because the player has no intention of staying.

[B]

Yes. And then the guy walks out the door, you know, you don't want that.

[A]

But there's a flip of that.

[B]

But they could. I mean, I did it with Kawhi. He actually. Yeah, but it was.

[A]

But.

[B]

But the flip was taken.

[A]

Someone could say. How would you address this? Someone could say, yeah, but Rich, he. Or you could say your client, or you could say whatever you want. But once they wind up on a team that then has their Bird rights. No, they probably are going to get a better deal from that team. So really what you're doing is creating a situation where the. The player doesn't. The player may ultimately decide, okay, fine, I'll take the money and wind up where they don't want to. You know what I'm saying? Like. Like what you're really avoiding is having your player in a situation where the. The team that could offer him the best deal is not where he wants to be.

[B]

Yes. Yes, that could happen. And that's based. That's going to be based upon the player and the relationship with the agent, his representation.

[A]

But from the Celtics point of view, let's say during the AD situation, or whoever wanted to trade for AD Reported. Trade for AD Yes. On the one hand, what you did, I thought was very well. It was very smart, period. But even it was in the best interest of the Celtics if AD didn't plan on being there, because now they don't overpay for a temporary asset. On the other hand, someone could say, yeah, but Rich, ultimately the Celtics give up a big package for ad.

[B]

You.

[A]

He shows up there, and then they make him an offer he doesn't want to turn down. So maybe they could have kept him. Right. Do you want to take the risk?

[B]

Do you want to take the risk? When I was young, playing on the Sims Raiders, you'd be playing the game and then on the. It's on the defensive end. The offensive team got the ball and it's an interception or something. Fumble or pose to score a touchdown. You were short. The cheerleaders would sing this cheer. And it was exactly what you're talking about. You thought you had a victory, but evidently you got burnt. That's what that was.

[A]

Your mama says you ugly.

[B]

That was the cheer. And so you don't want to take that risk. And here's the other thing.

[A]

But you're right. In other words, at least you're giving them the information. This is what is truthfully what we're thinking.

[B]

But, Max, if I get on the phone with you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I say, max, do not do this because of these reasons.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I've never lied to you a day in my life.

[A]

That's the whole thing. In order to do that, in order for the operator in that arena, the agent in this case, you. In this case, in order to do that, the person has to be credible with all parties involved. And that's based on their track record.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then if someone gets burnt and they lie, then they know that for next time.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Right. So it's in your best interest to be straightforward.

[B]

I'm always straightforward. Which was, you know, I put the. I was the guy putting this. There was no more sources. I put my name on everything.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

No one was doing that. They wasn't putting their name on nothing. It was all sources.

[A]

Although I never. Sometimes I get info from you. I wouldn't. I wouldn't say who it was from.

[B]

Yes, but I'm talking about when I was. I would say they would ask you, the reporter actually, do you want this to be on the record? This is on the record, right? I was on the record for. From 2000, what, 16?

[A]

It's funny because if in this business, if you're not a reporter and I've never been a reporter, you always want off the record. I always want. I don't. I'm not trying to report it. I'm just trying to get background and.

[B]

Yeah. And all representation was off the record, right? No one was doing on the record. Yeah, I was on the record.

[A]

Yeah. You put your name on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why do you think. Do you think it's gotten ugly with Giannis and the Bucks?

[B]

Yeah, of course. I mean, anytime you have a.

[A]

Why do you think?

[B]

Just too long.

[A]

Just going on too long. Yeah. All right, so let's. All right, I think we've exhausted this topic. Let's go.

[B]

That's good topic though.

[A]

I think so. I'm interested to hear your.

[B]

And many people are interested in it, but I think it'll be a re. Interest when it plays out.

[A]

Yeah, right. Game overs presented by FanDuel. The most prestigious torture tournament in golf is returning to Augusta. You never know how it's going to go down. But FanDuel has your back with a special Mulligan bet back token during the event. Save it until the tournament starts so you can turn any losing bet into a bonus bet. Now you've got protection to take that sleeper pick. Make a bold prediction. But hey, anything can happen and everyone deserves a second chance at glory. That's FanDuel.com gameover to claim your special Mulligan Bet Back token for Augusta 21 and over in select states or 18 and over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required refund issued as a non withdrawable bonus bet that expires seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply including token expiration. See [e-mail] gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler. Call call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat In Connecticut, UNC hires Malone.

[B]

Good hire.

[A]

Good hire. Talk about that top five paid coach. He's getting 8.3 a year and he's an intense guy. But nowadays. Rich. I was thinking about this. An intense college coach given the portal and.

[B]

And what was Bobby Knight and John Thompson.

[A]

Right. But give it. But especially a pro style coach. First of all, in terms of intensity in college, you're not going to burn the kids out. They're gone. You got a new crop of kids. But More than that, the whole thing as well. Is it pro coach, is that going to work in college? But they're kind of quasi professionals in college nowadays. If you. I've been singing Dan Hurley's praises as a coach, the competitiveness, all that. But also they know how to work the portal. They know like they get the new, the new reality, right? Yeah, I don't know. I think a pro coach who's intense is, could be a great fit in a college program.

[B]

The keys to success from Mike Malone. First of all, he's a, he's a championship, NBA championship coach. But not only that, he comes from a coaching family. His dad, Brendan Malone was on the Pistons staff for a long time. Mike Malone was actually, I spoke about him the other day. He was actually assistant coach in Cleveland with Mike Brown.

[A]

He was on the Knicks staff. He's on a lot of staff.

[B]

Yeah, he's been on a ton of different staffs and I know him really well. Really good dude, great guy. But the key to his success because he's going to be able to go into a living room and tell a kid and his family, hey, I know what it looks like at the next level. I can help you get there. That's going to mean a lot. That's going to mean a lot. Not only can I help you get there, I'm not just saying I can help you get there. I can, I can out of a timeout, draw up a play that make you look really good if you do what I ask you to do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Also I can put sets in that are pro sets, that when the scouts are scouting you and you're looking as a point guard. How are you reading this? Pick and roll? Can you throw the pocket pass NBA ready, skipping the corner, if a guy go under, can you shoot to three? Can you come off of certain screens if you are shooting guard, pin downs, whatever the case may be. If you're big, how are you, how are you able to show that I'm NBA ready both on the offensive end and the defensive end. That's number one. But the biggest thing for him is not going to be him, it's his staff. Because he's not going to have to connect fully to the kids. He going to have to connect to them. Once they get inside the 20 yard line, who's gonna get them to the 20? That's where you fill out the rest of that staff at now the kid has changed today. The kid that Dean Smith and John Thompson and Nolan Richardson, those guys that you look to as more father Figures that kid isn't in college anymore. The kid in college has a father, so you don't need that from the head coach in the college anymore. Most kids today have a father in the household. There's many more, two parent homes, which I'm appreciative of, which is great, and they should be as well. The other part of this is they paid him the money, now give him some more money because he now has to go and fill out a roster and he has to compete with other schools. So regardless of conference, regardless of legacy and things like that, you have to have the funding to go out and fill out this roster, whether it's through the portal, the incoming freshmen, things of that nature. And so I think it's a good starting point. I know people were surprised about them hiring someone that wasn't within the family, but I do think it's a really good hire and I think Mike Malone will do a really good job.

[A]

I agreed. And North Carolina, you got to give it to them. They have, they set very high standards for themselves, themselves. And because of that, they've been a powerhouse program. You think about the coaches. You go from Dean Smith, who wound up winning a championship to. What's his name? Between Smith and Roy Williams.

[B]

Who? Matt Doherty? No, no, no, Guthridge.

[A]

Guthridge, yeah, Guthridge to Roy Williams. No, Guthridge to Doherty to Roy Williams. Yeah, but each one of those guys like, okay, Guthridge got to find he didn't win a championship, but he got deep in the tournament multiple years.

[B]

Well, he inherited the recruiting classes of

[A]

Dancer for sure, but he got, he got deep into the tournament and obviously Roy Williams did business and Hubert Davis is one, you could say inherited a certain level, did very well early and got declining results. Yes, but, but like in North North Carolina ain't going to do it. They expect, they expect sustained success, but

[B]

sometimes you overthink it. I've seen college coaches overthink the situation as well. You get caught up in your own. You trip over your own shoestrings sometimes because it's like, you know what? I'm going to take the kid that commit to us first. I get that. But he might not be the best kid. You can do that at uab, right? At unc, you got to get the best kid.

[A]

You got to get the best kid.

[B]

I don't give a damn how long

[A]

it takes, but I just mean like, like hold. Like sometimes a program can get itself in trou. I think of like, I think of some football programs where it's like, you had a good coach, you were doing pretty well, you were looking to take the next step. Now you have a worse coach and you're getting worse results. But in the case of unc, the fact that they hold themselves to the standard they do and good enough is not good enough has kept them relevant through Duke's glory years, like through everything. And I like this move. I don't want to say I like the firing, but I like the hiring.

[B]

Yeah. They paid him more money than some NBA coaches make.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So if this is going to be the case, you know what's going to happen? Universities are going to start to take away what could be up and coming college coaches.

[A]

Universities.

[B]

I mean, up and coming pro coaches.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

Universities are going to start to take away what could be up and coming pro coaches.

[A]

I'm telling you, the men's college game. I think two things are about to happen. I think the women's college game will decline a little bit because there's more money in the NBA, in the WNBA than there ever before was before. I know they're having changed the rules. I know. But I'm saying over time, all that's going to change.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think the men's college game is about to get better again. Because. Because as you were saying, depending on how your career is going, you might make more money in college.

[B]

You could now. But what's going to happen is if our development of these players don't catch up. Not so much because this.

[A]

Yeah, but it will, because they're going to be in college longer.

[B]

Oh, well, that's a good point. I'm talking about the incoming. I'm talking about the incoming fresh.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But the incoming pool of players because the youth sports is broken.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. But now they're going to get fixed

[B]

at the college level and they're going to spend longer and it's better for the NBA, which creates more awareness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's more stars.

[A]

That's the real thing. In the old days.

[B]

That is the real fix. Starting with the youth. We got to fix that. That is totally broken.

[A]

Sure, if someone had a plan, but

[B]

then being able to stay in college longer is going to be big for the men's game. I agree with that.

[A]

No doubt. So. Oh, actually, I'm looking at the notes. You had a question. This is your question.

[B]

Because we were talking about uncle and I always. Anytime you think about UNC and Duke, I think about what is the true rivalry in college sports. I know what I think it is, but is It Michigan, Ohio State? Is it Duke, North Carolina? Is it Auburn, Alabama? Is it usc, ucla?

[A]

It's. The first two are football, basketball.

[B]

They both. They are football, basketball.

[A]

But I'm saying.

[B]

Oh, you say the number one rivalry.

[A]

The number one rivalry is football. In football, it's Michigan, Ohio State.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And in basketball, it's unc. But I'm saying regardless of sport, because it's more balanced. Those are kind of more balanced rivalries.

[B]

But regardless of sport, what is it?

[A]

It's a good question because Auburn, Alabama, I mean, they have a name for a game that they play. Right. But it's been lopsided through the years.

[B]

Yes, it has been. I think Michigan, Ohio State is the biggest rivalry in college sports, regardless of sport.

[A]

I agree. I think it is because first of all, football is just bigger.

[B]

But I just think those two universities is just.

[A]

They always have great coaches, name coaches. They, they, they're. And then now like they've gone back and forth and.

[B]

But just the size of the stadiums highest level. I mean, before they filled in the horseshoe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was what, 105,000. Whatever it was 102,000. Where Michigan plays is called the Big House. You know, they don't even have a name. It's just called the Big House. And it's big. It's a big house. So it has to, it has to be.

[A]

And it doesn't matter what you did that season. You have to beat that team.

[B]

You have to beat that team. Those two rivalries, but also the Big Ten. Sneaky. There's a sneaky Big Ten thing happening here.

[A]

Of course. I don't think it's sneaky.

[B]

Well, they won the national championship in football, men's basketball.

[A]

Oh, you mean overall and women's basketball. Yeah, I thought you were.

[B]

Then they won a national championship last year in football as well.

[A]

What could have happened in recent years that has led to this? Like, the SEC was kicking everyone's ass for years and years and years. Then something happened and now all of a sudden the Big Ten is running things. I wonder, has there been any.

[B]

They actually set the check on the table. They didn't slide right there. It's like. No, we could put it there.

[A]

All right, I got a five minute max for you, Rich. Ready for this one?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm interested in your reaction to this one. And Dean, you can time this if you want. So there have been two stories in the news, Rich, that got me thinking about this one. I'm riding, I'm driving my car the other day, and I'm Listening to the radio and they're debating Rookie of the Year Concanipple or Cooper Flag. And they were making the case mostly for Concanipple. I didn't think. I think there's a very good case for Concan nipple. I didn't think they were making it. But the best case for him. But I think there is a good case for him. But. So I heard that. And then Wemby got hurt the other day. I got taken out of the game. And that got me thinking. Not about Rookie of the Year and not about Wemby, but about Cooper Flag. I'm going to say it right now. If Wemby is healthy, then everything I say means, except for Wemby because he's going to be in a class by himself. But Wemby's health, he's nine feet tall. We don't know if he's going to stay healthy because the physiology of people that big is different from everyone else. And it's not like he's brolic, like Shaq or something, right? He's a string bean. Cooper Flagg is gonna be the best player in basketball and it's gonna happen soon. It's gonna be the best player on the planet Earth. And it's gonna happen much sooner than people know.

[B]

How soon you think? Put a number of years on it. Is it two?

[A]

Three? Yep. Not two. So two more seasons. By his fourth season, he's gonna be the best player in basketball. And I'll tell you why. And what's crazy is, could you imagine if this tells you in a certain way how far we've come? If I told you when we were kids, let's say I said, you know, there's going to be like a, an American born white player who's, who's going to be like, might wind up being the best player in basketball and no one's going to even be paying attention to him, really. Like, no one's going to care. No one's going to be thinking about it. No one's really thinking about him right now, I don't think. Because maybe because Knipple is so good, maybe because the Mavs suck. Maybe because. And you know, like no one wants to be a tanking, rebuilding team, whatever you want to call it. Maybe because Wemby is from another planet, right? Because he's already went healthy, I think the best player in the world. But Cooper Flagg as a baby walked on in Vegas with Olympians and kind of ran it like he was as good, he absolutely belonged and was better than some of the players on the floor. Like, your eye went to him and said, damn, he's better than these guys already. What was he, 17? He's 6 foot 9. He's athletic. He's a great defender. He's already this good. He kind of can't even shoot the three yet. He doesn't take many of them and he doesn't hit a lot of them. But he's better than an 80% free throw shooter. He is going to be. You know how you said, like, the whole league is looking for Scottie Pippen?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Make Scottie Pippen longer. Make him a baby and he's already playing at this level. And make him a better shooter, because I think eventually Cooper's going to be a really good shooter. What do you call that? Like, that. That dude is like. And no one's thinking about him because of Wemby and because. And maybe a little.

[B]

Not just Wemby. Wemby Shea. There's been a lot of people. Here's what I would say. Yes, yes, and yes. In terms of his trajectory of being really good. I don't want to put that expectation on him because I think it's.

[A]

He's a teenager. He ain't even 20 yet.

[B]

So you're putting the expectation on him.

[A]

Yeah, I expect.

[B]

But if it don't happen.

[A]

No, I'm not even putting expectation. I'm making a prediction. I'm making it. Like, we were talking about this the other day. Like, can a wing player. Can a wing. Like. Like an MJ or a Kobe or a LeBron, and LeBron's not exactly a wing. He's more. He does. Because he's also kind of a point forward.

[B]

He's not a wing. He's in everything.

[A]

He's in everything. Yeah, I agree with that. And. But can that guy still be the best player in basketball? You brought up, especially American Born. Right? You brought up Ant Man. Yes, I would agree with that. Ant man is a touch undersized, though. If you want to be the very best player in the game, he's 6, 4. If he was 6, 6, 6, 7, maybe this dude Cooper Flagg is 6, 9, legit.

[B]

He might be 6, 10. He's legit. He's legit. But the thing that. The thing that I'm more impressed with is. And it's been like this for a while, he just plays the game the right way. He plays the game the right way. His feel for the game is there.

[A]

And his level of. When we talk about a bag and adjustments. Right and there are certain things he can't do. Like. Okay, but, but.

[B]

Well, he's. Well, well, listen, if he came in with a fanny pack, he's going to leave out with Santa's bag because he's. Do you know who he's down there with every day? You got Phil Handy and Kyrie Irving right there.

[A]

Kyrie, yeah.

[B]

Listen, if you don't have a bag, I would have a bag if you give me two months.

[A]

By the way, whenever we talk Scottie Pippen, he's scrimmaging against Michael Jordan. Since he comes in the league, what do you think's going to happen? But, but I wasn't even thinking that. And Kyrie Irving is right there.

[B]

Yeah, but not only right there.

[A]

Willing to help mentor.

[B]

See, it's one thing to be there. Okay, great. It's not like he's flying out the practice facility but willing to stay after and help.

[A]

And Kyrie is doing that. He's staying. He's staying with him.

[B]

I'm sure he is. Yeah. But when you notice when in Cleveland,

[A]

LeBron's ball handling got one when Kyrie showed up.

[B]

Well, Kyrie was already there when he showed back up.

[A]

I'm saying when LeBron showed up.

[B]

Yeah. When he pulled back up and parked just deuce in the quarter in the driveway, he was like, listen, man, his handles got a lot better.

[A]

You know what else about Cooper? And this is something that, like that LeBron has, that Jokic has that like the really, you know, like. So we have the Jordan, LeBron thing all the time. But one thing I'll say about LeBron that is true. And I said about. We talk about Magic, Bird, Jokic, there are some basketball geniuses. Right. And then there are other people, like, I'd say like Jordan and Kobe, I wouldn't say they were basketball geniuses. They were just the best players. Right. But they didn't. It didn't seem to me like Jordan and Kobe were seeing extra dimensionally on the court the way. The way Joker. Joker and Magic and Bird kind of had that point guard vision.

[B]

But whatever.

[A]

But. Right, but whatever position. The reason that MJ and Kobe are really two guards is because they're not. They're not seeing everything the way a point guard sees it, even when they were playing the point necessarily the way the guys would like extra sensory perception do.

[B]

Yeah, well, you have the, you know, you have Blackhawk, right. Then you have. Just like I'm going to make. I'm surveying the radar over this entire scope of things where we're able to and. And strategize and determine and implement and do all these different things.

[A]

And there's some guys. Yeah. I'm not saying Cooper Flagg is one of those genius guys, but I am saying this. His diagnostic ability, meaning this is what they're trying to do to me early in a game, figuring that out and responding is already. As a teenager, is on an absurd level.

[B]

Here's the other thing we forgot. He also has Jason Kidd.

[A]

Yeah, right. That and he's one of those extra perception guys. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. He has two brains.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like maybe three. Basketball.

[A]

I'm just saying, like crazy. To me, it became like. As I'm listening to all. As I'm thinking about Wemby and listening to the Khan and Cooper debates, I realized, wait a minute. No one's talking about the fact that he's doing all this. He's not 20. He's going to be the best player.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Other than Wemby, if Wemby's healthy. That is always the caveat. Otherwise, the best player in the game.

[B]

I like to say there's an opportunity to be. But again, just like I always talk about, it's not on him. The only way to become that number one, you have to win. You have to win because you can't have expectations for one player and then don't have expectations for the other players.

[A]

Win the whole thing, or. What do you mean by win?

[B]

I'm saying just win. You have to win.

[A]

He's going to win. I'm saying if you. There's no such thing as a player that good. I don't care who you're playing with. By the time they get fully developed, they're in the playoffs, they're winning playoff series. All that's going to happen. I'm telling you, that's. That's going to happen. Given the fact that you have to

[B]

put the right pieces around.

[A]

No, I'm saying If you have LeBron James and you don't have the right pieces around, it's glaring. You're going to the playoffs and you're going to win a playoff series at least, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I'm saying Cooper Flag's one of those dudes. No matter what you do, that dude will be in the playoffs.

[B]

Well, healthy this year. They wanted to. We had him as top team in the West.

[A]

If they were healthy.

[B]

If they were healthy.

[A]

I mean, but. And they're obviously not trying.

[B]

But, but, but it don't have to take that long to turn around.

[A]

He's the best. Yeah, he's. Is he Better than Luka at the same age. How old was Luka when he got to the league?

[B]

Probably 19, 20. Yeah.

[A]

I would rather have Cooper Flag than Luka.

[B]

Well, you're saying he does more for your team and wins your team.

[A]

Yes, I like his style of play. Luka has more stuff, but Cooper Flag is taller.

[B]

You may say it looks better. No, I'm saying what's more impactful?

[A]

I think Luke is a better playmaker.

[B]

Yes, but that's style.

[A]

But I'm saying Luke is not a defender. He's an excellent. Cooper Flag's one of these actual. Can defend all five position players. Right. And he's athletic, and he has the kind of style I like and I think is conducive to winning a championship. Right. And could be the best player on a championship team. So I would say he's actually the best teenager since LeBron.

[B]

You didn't name one thing. Yeah, I would agree with that. You would. You. You. You didn't name one thing. Yeah, competitive nature.

[A]

Super competitive.

[B]

He competes on both sides of the floor.

[A]

But just also the moxie. Like the way he's a teenager on the. On the floor with Olympians, and you're like, who? I remember. I forgot what he was dropping. It was like 20 points. He. A lot of times I would watch and I'd be like, he's kind of the best player on the floor.

[B]

But why is it that some players come into the league with expectation, others don't?

[A]

Like.

[B]

So when a guy is really, really good, they're expected to win.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How many guys come into the league and you say, if they don't win by X amount of years, then they're not. They're bus.

[A]

Anyone who you see, who you say can be the best player on a championship team, that guy's got to win. He's got, like. He can't not. It can't be year three and he's not in the playoffs.

[B]

So how many guys have we had that in the last. How many guys did you see like that in the last 15 years?

[A]

15?

[B]

Yeah. Dating back to. What's that? 2010.

[A]

2010. So, I mean, you're taking LeBron and KD and everybody out of it.

[B]

Well, you can go back 30 years then.

[A]

Okay. Obviously, LeBron James. That's the first one.

[B]

You didn't say it for Kobe. You didn't say that for Kobe.

[A]

No, because Kobe was a baby and he was going to the Lakers and he was going to meet Shaq there. You know, so they were all babies.

[B]

They came in right out of high school.

[A]

Yeah, but Kobe was the F. He was the first backcourt player to come in from high school. So it was. He had a longer Runway than. Than LeBron did, for example. Who else has come out? Because Luca, everyone heard about, but I didn't see him much. It's not like I got to watch him play in college.

[B]

Well, there's kind of guys that actually won championships. That was ad.

[A]

AD had high expectations.

[B]

Yes, but you didn't say he had to win a championship by X amount of years.

[A]

But back then, which isn't that long ago, at that point, you had to be a back corporate. I think for that to be the expectation was Shaq. Yeah. Yes. Shaq was going to have to win.

[B]

He was going to have to win. So so far we have Shaq, LeBron, you have LeBron.

[A]

KD not the same expectations.

[B]

No, no. To Zai. I'm just looking at the number one picks.

[A]

Not Zion.

[B]

No, no. Okay. So not many.

[A]

Wembley. Wemby's gonna have to win.

[B]

You say he has to win. So that's three guys in the last.

[A]

If Wemby doesn't win at least a championship, that's like what just happened.

[B]

But in how many years?

[A]

If he's healthy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

He's got two more after this one. He's got to win a championship. Different expectations than Cooper Flag, right? I'm not saying Cooper Flag has to win a championship by his fourth year. Wemby has to.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because he. But partly because he's on a great franchise, on a great team, and he is from another planet.

[B]

Well, it wasn't a great team when he got there, but.

[A]

But it's not just. He's the number one thing. They got a lot. That team's got a lot now.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It wasn't like that when he arrived.

[A]

Well, that's why I'm not saying I think they can do it this year if he's healthy, but he doesn't have to this year.

[B]

The point I'm making is all these guys that you name.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You need the help, of course. You need the decision makers to help you get to that point. Of course. And then if that happens.

[A]

Yeah. This is why. This is why when people make the, you know, I make the Jordan argument, but I don't make this part of it. Jordan got, you know, never had to leave the Bulls. Yeah. Because they put the right stuff around. Right. If, you know, LeBron was supposed to wait in Cleveland and waste his career when. When they wouldn't trade J.J. hickson for. For Amar's D. Of course not. Right. Okay.

[B]

Anyway, I'm surprised you didn't say Garnett, but. No, he wasn't. He wasn't expected to.

[A]

No. Garnett. Yeah. Garnett had to. Okay. Garnett had to win a championship before it was all over.

[B]

Before it was all.

[A]

Before it was all over. He had to win one. And he did.

[B]

But that could be 22 years.

[A]

Yep. Garnett didn't come and you got to win right away, but he had to win one.

[B]

It made me think back of this. This. This McDonald's class, this McDonald's game. I was watching and I was just thinking about all the guys that were in this class. I'm going to name them. Sharif Abdul Rahim. Lewis Bullock. Went to Michigan. Vince Carter, unc. Randell Jackson. I don't remember this guy. Jameson Marbury. Ron Mercer. Sham God.

[A]

God. Sham God.

[B]

I think it's before he changed his name, too. Wayne Turner, Great UK point guard. Sam Oakey. I remember him. Luther Clay. Remember him? Chauncey. Chris Clack, Remember him? Went to Texas. Big guy, he was. Chris Clack. Would have been a really good pro in today's game. He was just Kevin Garnett. Derrick Hood. I think he went to Mississippi. Jelani McCoy. Went to UCLA. Paul Pierce, Ryan Robertson. Don't know where he went. Robert Trailer. Again, Michigan. Albert White. Michigan. BJ McKee. Went to South Carolina. And just so you know, these colleges aren't on here. This is just me.

[A]

I hear you.

[B]

But it just made me think of all those names. Those. That was the McDonald's team. Yeah, that was a very, very, very loaded team.

[A]

And yes, it seems that way.

[B]

Guys became pros, but it reminded me

[A]

some of them became hall of Famers.

[B]

Yeah, it reminded me of something else. I was in 1995. I think I told you this before, at the Soul and Cage Classic. Those guys. Lewis Bullock, kg, tractor trailer. Dane Fife. I don't know if Albert White was on that team. I don't think so. And maybe Mo Taylor was on that team. Maybe. If he was, he was young. But anyway, all those guys were on one AAU team.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

One team.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

It was the Michigan All Stars.

[A]

What, they got a roster with 40 guys?

[B]

It was Lewis.

[A]

They were playing football.

[B]

No, it was Lewis Bullock. It was either Dugan. I think it was Dugan Fife, maybe Dane Fife. Dane Fife, tractor trailer. Mo Taylor. Kevin Garnett. A guy named Brandon. Brandon Hughes. Okay, I want to say. And a couple they Was incredible. They were incredible.

[A]

That is an incredible.

[B]

Incredible.

[A]

That's an incredible roster. By the way, you see, Mendoza is not going to be at the NFL draft.

[B]

That don't surprise me, Max, by the

[A]

way, not only does it. Trevor Lawrence wasn't at his draft, like a lot of guys weren't at their draft, but I think it's actually a good story for the NFL. Like people. I've been hearing a lot of commentary about how. Oh. Huh. About him. Yeah. Him not going. His mother has Ms.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

He says he wants to spend time with his family.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They don't. She doesn't let what she's dealing with stop her from being a part of his whole experience as a. As a player. And I think you could play up that whole angle, the whole family angle with him. Well, here's the way it's more interesting than if he's just sitting at the draft.

[B]

If you're not seeking the picture with the commissioner.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Staying home is probably better. Number one, it costs you less.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The convenience of family. They're not inconvenienced. Where's the draft at this year? Pittsburgh.

[A]

Pittsburgh. Yeah.

[B]

So the NFL draft moves around. The NBA draft is always in New York. So imagine if you have 30 family members wanting to come to New York. You're not going to see the player maybe for one night. Because they're moving around.

[A]

Right?

[B]

They're moving around.

[A]

If you're staying, you don't have a dime yet. You just spent on 50 grand.

[B]

Yeah, but if you're staying at the Big Puff Inn in New York, it's cost you $300 a night.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Right. Plus tickets to the draft. Plus you got to buy clothes. You have to have travel there and back. It's a big. It's a big cost.

[A]

It's a huge expense.

[B]

Yes. But the only thing I would say to that, that if you're going to spend, you can't. You only do this once. You only get drafted one time. I've never saw somebody get drafted twice,

[A]

but maybe he wants to be. He'd rather be. There's nothing.

[B]

Listen, there's nothing in football. This happens more than anything.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Be with your family. I don't mind that. Yeah, I don't mind you being with your family.

[A]

I have one. I just wanted to touch on this because, remember I brought up this team as a potential title team this year if they were healthy. And Van Vliet came back. Van Vliet did not come back. They don't have Steven Adams, but they're playing well. The Rockets haven't lost in like six months. Like, they won eight straight. Yeah, they won eight straight. But it's not just the fact that they're winning, Rich. You see the scores? They're giving them 130 points a night.

[B]

You know, I think sometimes.

[A]

And they're going to have the Lakers in the first round, so that's a win they're going to get. The Rockets are going to wind up in the second round of the playoffs. Let me ask you.

[B]

To play San Antonio?

[A]

Probably not right now.

[B]

No. In the second round.

[A]

In the second round. Yeah.

[B]

Both have to advance.

[A]

So. So this is what I was thinking. Knock wood. This is not the case. If, for whatever reason, Wemby is not available or comp. Or compromised and they somehow, by some miracle, had Van Vliet, which doesn't look like it's in the offing. Correct?

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Okay. Because earlier in the season, you put Van Vliet on the phone on this show.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you guys are trying to make it sound like he was coming back and that.

[B]

No one tried to make it sound

[A]

like, hey, it doesn't sound like he's coming back to me. And you both got on me and now he's.

[B]

No, I just. You never know.

[A]

I just kind of needed the information to make the pick, and so I didn't make the right pick.

[B]

But what are you asking me?

[A]

The. The Rockets, the way they're playing right now, they're going to win a playoff series if they had, you know who. So I was thinking about kd. You know who KD is? Post Warriors. The way he's been hopping around and first Brooklyn with. With James Harden and Kyrie, and then he moved Phoenix, and then it didn't work, and now. You ever see the movie Office Space?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay, so there's a scene in Office Space early on. Funny movie seen in Office Space early on. Dude sitting in traffic. And you know how it is. You're sitting in this one lane, it's not moving. This lane's moving. So you get into that lane and that lane stops and this line. This lane's moving. So he's sitting in traffic, and there's a guy in a walker. He sees, and he keeps jumping into different lanes and getting stopped. And by the end of the scene, the guy in the walker is ahead of him. Right. Because he keeps jumping, switching lanes to get ahead, and then he winds up not moving because of that. That's kd. KD is the dude in traffic who's jumping from lane to lane. And every lane he gets into is the wrong one. Like Brooklyn with Harden and Kyrie.

[B]

No, that wasn't the wrong one. He just.

[A]

No, no, I'm saying I. That lane looked like it was moving like this. Right. By the way, they were. Had they stayed healthy, they would have stomped everyone in basketball. As it was, they. They were about to beat the eventual champs with one guy. Had those three guys been healthy together, it would. That was going to be a. I didn't think this when they, when those three first came together, but watching them just play a little bit together, it's

[B]

like, yeah, that wasn't a regular season roster. That was a. That was a champ.

[A]

That was a championship roster. I'm just telling you, no one was going to take that team seven games if they would have stayed healthy. But still the lane stalled out and everyone else is moving.

[B]

Well, those three guys, okay, but that's made for the playoffs. When it.

[A]

Matt, when no have to go and

[B]

get a bucket, it's hard to find a better three guys you can put on.

[A]

Especially with Harden became such a point guard at that point.

[B]

Well, he is a natural point guard.

[A]

A natural point guard. But I thought if someone said, what's James Harden's prime? I don't care about the MVP numbers that he put up in Houston. His prime to me started with that Brooklyn Harden point guard where he was averaging 22 points. And I thought he was a very winning player at that point. Like I thought that was looked like a championship player to me. At any rate, Phoenix, that looked like that lane was going to go. It did not go. The Rockets, if they were healthy. If the Rockets were healthy, I think they match up kind of with anyone if they're healthy. Maybe not quite as deep as some other teams, but pretty good.

[B]

Yeah. I won't say anything about jumping lanes. I would just say it's good to exercise your flexibility when you can. You have the option to do so and unfortunate things happen. But wherever.

[A]

I'm not saying it's a bad kd. I'm saying he's kind of snake bit like, you look at the lane, it's moving. It looks good. Devin, Booker, whoever Sengun and these guys and Van Vliet. It looks good. Like that's the right spot. It looks like and it doesn't. Then the other guys go and you're stuck.

[B]

Well, there's the expectation they have to win in year one because a name like that arrives.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, see what happens.

[A]

All right.

[B]

And by the way, this. The year is still young.

[A]

This Episode is brought to you by Zip recruiter MVPs always make the game more exciting. You just get such a thrill watching players like Jerry Rice, Jim Brown or Lawrence Taylor, that's my favorite of all time, dominate the field. And no matter how much time passes, it's fun to look back on everything they did and accomplished. There's a reason we continue to remember their names among the hundreds and thousands of other football players. You probably want your own Jerry Rice or Jim Brown for your team too, right? The trick is to find them. It can take days, months to sort through all the resumes and find that perfect fit for your business. Unless you use ZipRecruiter. It's like your own private scouting department. You can even try it [e-mail] GameOver along with its smart matching tech, ZipRecruiter has a new feature to help connect you immediately with qualified candidates who are interested in your role. And they can tell you in their own words about why they're interested, which can tell you a lot more about them as a person. Cut through the standard and get to the standouts with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now you can try it for [e-mail] gameover that's ziprecruiter.com gameover meet your match on ZipRecruiter. You going to the Masters, right?

[B]

I don't know yet. Should I. Should I play in it? Getting really good, Max.

[A]

What's your handicap?

[B]

I don't keep score like that on my handicap. I should though. I should. It's such a hard game though. But if I do go to the Masters, if I go, I only go on the course one, one day when I go to these events.

[A]

The rest you're doing business.

[B]

I mean all the C suite people are there, the brands are there. It's a lot going. Actually, the Masters is probably the best sporting event I've ever been to for

[A]

business,

[B]

just through and through the experience of it. Now maybe because I went last year

[A]

was my first Mike Tyson fight. I mean the best sporting that you ever do is the Masters.

[B]

Yeah, I never.

[A]

Have you ever been to an NBA game? I'm sure I've seen you at NBA game seven. I've seen you talk. There was a guy, Rich, he looked just like you. I'm talking about dead ringer talking to LeBron on the sideline of an NBA game. I swear to God. Finals I'm just. Just all kinds of games. You said you've never been to a better sport. Sporting event. At the freaking Masters.

[B]

I'm telling you, the Masters. I'm talking about the entire event, not just the golf. I'm talking about the entire event.

[A]

That's what I thought you were talking.

[B]

It's a grand experience, but for somebody that doesn't like golf.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then you may not be into it. But it's a great event. It's a great event. Now people say you crazy. You've been to the game seven of the finals. You've been to the Super Bowl. Yes, and yes. But again, see how you turn into

[A]

business when you're thinking about the Masters, you're thinking about brand stuff, and I am all this stuff.

[B]

I really am.

[A]

Right. Shoe deals. It always comes down to you with shoe deals and incentives and shoes.

[B]

But the super bowl is. The super bowl is a lot different than all Star in that regard. The super bowl is just as big in terms of all the. The brands, all the C suite people. Everyone comes in for the Super Bowl.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah. So I would probably say between the Masters in the super bowl in that regard. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. When Tyson fought, wasn't the same thing.

[B]

When Tyson fought who? What fight could I have gone to? When Tyson fought? No, I just saw Tyson at the Forest Hill pool back in 89.

[A]

Yeah. Or Floyd or.

[B]

You know, I've been to several Floyd fights. Yeah, great fights. But yeah, I would pick the Masters,

[A]

I would take Corrales, Castillo, but that's just me over the Mass. Great, great fight. Yeah. I'm just. As a sport, as a sporting.

[B]

Here's the other thing. It's nothing like going to Vegas to a fight.

[A]

Yeah. Come on.

[B]

That. That's.

[A]

You want to do emails?

[B]

Yeah, sure. Let's do it.

[A]

Blake from Florida with the ascension of Wemby and in my opinion, Joker having been the best player in the league for the past few years. I agree. I agree. We could be in a situation where Luca will never be the best player in basketball. I agree. Maybe a list, maybe top five of the best players who at no point in their career. This is a great question. Are the best player in basketball. Keep up the good work. Good question, Blake. And I got. I have some. Ooh. I have someone who. Oh, it's going to make people mad.

[B]

Who.

[A]

As one of my all time favorite players.

[B]

Who.

[A]

Magic Johnson was never the best player in basketball because when he came into the league now he was the best player in game six of the finals in basketball. But that year, Kareem was the best player in basketball. Kareem or Moses Malone was probably the best player in basketball the next year or two. Larry Bird then took over from them. He was better than. Like it was.

[B]

There wasn't one year you think he's the best player.

[A]

He was perceived that way because since MJ hadn't won a championship in like 86, MJ was better than Bird. MJ was better than Bird and Magic in 86. And it was not close. MJ was a lot better than either one of those guys. He was on a team without any other all stars. You know, he wasn't. He. He. He was not a basketball genius like they were, but he was already the most offensive force ever and he was a great defense.

[B]

So you could. So you do qualify for being the best player without having to win it.

[A]

If you have no one on your. Look, LeBron was the best player when he. Some years when he didn't win because he had.

[B]

What year? 07.

[A]

He didn't have enough guys on his team. No. Like. No, I'll tell you when. 2016, 2018. Best player in the world.

[B]

That no one's giving you credit for that genius. No, I'm talking about when everyone else would have said he wasn't.

[A]

Okay. 2007 is a good year.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You could. I mean what he was working with to take them as far as he took them. Yeah.

[B]

Who else you have?

[A]

So Magic would be the one that would be like. Because. Because people mistakenly think he was better than Bird. I used to root for Magic against Bird, of course, because I was a Knicks fan. I hated the Celtics. But let's to be honest at. There's a reason bird won those three MVPs in a row. Okay. Who's got another one for you? Make people mad. SGA MVP champion. Was he the best player in basket? Who was not better than Joker? Joker is better than sga. And you know, like so. So there's two.

[B]

You notice I'm not even saying anything to these comments you have.

[A]

I'll give you. I'll stay with the point. I'll just stay with point guards.

[B]

Who else?

[A]

Steve Nash won Back to back MVPs.

[B]

No one considered him the best player in the league.

[A]

Allen Iverson, the year that he went bananas and won a game from Shaq and Kobe. That's the only game in the playoffs they lost. Was he better than Kobe Bryant? Who's the best player in basketball that year?

[B]

Yeah, Kobe.

[A]

Right. So that means AI wasn't quite.

[B]

Who said he Was.

[A]

There are people who tell you he was for a year. Remember I said, Apologies, AI D. Wade. And there was someone else at Dr. J. Dr. J. It's hard to say. He may have been when he was in the aba.

[B]

AI was who you wanted to see.

[A]

Yeah, no doubt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Charles Barkley. David Robinson.

[B]

Charles Barkley. What year? 93.

[A]

He never spent a year of his life as a basketball player in the world. Yeah, well, that's the thing. It's hard to be the best player in the world. It's hard.

[B]

It is.

[A]

So they're saying. He's saying, make a list of the top five best players ever who were never the number one player.

[B]

So your list was.

[A]

I'd say Magic, sga, AI, Charles Barkley. Who does?

[B]

Who else?

[A]

Oh, David Robinson.

[B]

What about Ewing?

[A]

Yeah, but David Robinson's a little better than Ewing's. My guy, Nick. But David Robinson's a little better than Ewing. And so if David Robinson wasn't. Yeah. Ewing never was.

[B]

Guess what? I'll take that five and win.

[A]

Yeah. Win all day.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Julio from Puerto Rico by way of New York City. Love the show. The last couple seasons have given us the most injured players. The most injured. Do the low tops have an effect? Rich, I want to get your take on this. Should brands try to go back to the high tops? I'm an old head, so to me there's nothing better than the highs.

[B]

Thoughts? There was a purpose for making high top sneakers. I do think it has something to do with it, but less than the high tops. These kids don't tape anymore. These players don't tape.

[A]

You talking about ankle support period?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Some people don't like taping. You got to think guys have orthotics in their shoes. They don't tape on top of wearing low top shoes.

[A]

But it's a. You would say low top shoes are a contributing factor.

[B]

I would imagine so, yes. I mean, what does it say?

[A]

I would think so, too.

[B]

What does the study say?

[A]

I mean, first of all, you just correlate it. You say, when did all the soft tissue stuff. When did everything start happening? Right. Does it predate or post date something? Well, yeah.

[B]

I mean, low top shoes.

[A]

Yeah. Those Kobe's came out though. You had to get them.

[B]

Guys would never play in low top shoes. It took a while. It took a while. I remember probably five to seven years prior to LeBron ever going to a low top. We asked for a low top, but they always made a shoe that specifically was for his performance. Right. And low top just wasn't in the, in the car.

[A]

I mean, you would think with all the stopping and starting and torque, change of direction and everything you need to support. Support your ankle.

[B]

Yes. So I would say, yes, it does have some type of Cody Blakenberg.

[A]

Blackenberg. Rich, I'd love to hear your perspective on the best way to break into the sports agency industry. I'm looking to grow in the sports business space. Your insight would be invaluable.

[B]

Break out.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Why?

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

I would say there's. First of all, there's no. The best way to break in is with a bird in hand, having something to bring to the table. But the game is changing. The game is changing. And I think people see you at a game or they see players announce and everyone think, this is a very easy job to do. It's not easy, but let's say this

[A]

guy is like, I know it's not easy. I'm willing to work hard. I really want to do this. What advice would you give them? Like, for example, I've said this on the show before. People come up to me, I want to get into the broadcasting business. And I didn't go to journalism school or anything. I didn't know I was going to do TV for a living. I was a history major. And what I tell them is the best thing you can do is learn how to write really well, even if you're not doing writing for a living. But it helps you organize the way you think, it educates, you know, all that kind of stuff. So that's the advice.

[B]

The best advice I would give someone trying to. To break into the industry is to go work at a restaurant.

[A]

Because.

[B]

Because ultimately we work in a service industry. And so you should start in the service industry because you have to be able to take the brunt of people's day. That's just what it. I was. I was trained because working in my dad's store every day.

[A]

So let's say someone says, great idea, I start bussing tables. And then they make me a waiter. Now I'm waiting tables. And they do that for a couple years. And now they're like, now I'm ready to get into the industry. What do they do?

[B]

Nope. Then you gotta go into a gym, try to find who you think, quote, unquote, is the best player on the floor. Don't look at no lists or anything like that. Then try to find that person's parents. And then try to cultivate a relationship all in one.

[A]

So that's. That's really the answer kind of scout.

[B]

Yeah, that'll make you an agent. And damn sure just because you got an agent certification don't make you an agent either. Either. There's. There's so many things that go into being an agent, and it never ends. You, you, you, you. You're never just a complete agent because the game changes. Like you would think I was a complete agent. Well, well, now here comes nil. So you got to open it back up. Right? I don't think most agents should do shoe deals. They don't know anything about the brands. They don't know anything about connectivity, feel, culture. Why are you doing a shoe deal? Because if you make it just about the money, and I'm a signature athlete, and you had no feel for the brand. Now you sign with the biggest. You sign with the brand that has the most money. But it may not be the best brand for me and where I. I can build a real business through. But you just made it about the transaction. Why? Because you had no feel.

[A]

Right? The answer you're giving and the reason I eventually came up with the learn how to write thing is cause I got asked the question so much through the years, and I never had a good answer because I didn't get into the business in a traditional way. Neither did you get into your business in a traditional way. So it doesn't sound like you have a cohesive.

[B]

I don't have the bid in the bag answer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which isn't the right answer.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's the business card in our industry.

[A]

So basically, it sounds like you're saying hustle.

[B]

Not just hustle, I'm saying, but go

[A]

to the gym, scout a player, see who you think, talk to his parents, develop.

[B]

Develop is two routes to take. I took the different route. I didn't take the business card route. I don't even carry a business card. I can't tell you that. Last time I had a business card, it said distant replay on it, right? That was in 2001. Who needs a

[A]

business card when every time someone sees you coming, they're, yo, I'm rich.

[B]

No, no, that's, yo, what's up?

[A]

I'm max.

[B]

This is a playoff. This is play on the Movie, man.

[A]

But see this guy saying, this guy's saying, yo, I'm poor. How do I get to be rich?

[B]

No, what I'm saying is it's two ways to do it. You could take the traditional route, which you go to a higher institution, you get a job, you whatever. And that's not a bad route. I mean, I deal with.

[A]

Not your route.

[B]

Every day. It's just not my route.

[A]

Right. See? Same. I didn't have a traditional route, so I'd never know what to say. Over the years, I finally realized, what could I tell people that is true that I really do think would help them that I know about. Right. Because I can't tell you. Journalism school, do whatever. And so that's what I tell them. Learn how to write. If you had to tell them to learn one skill before we get out of here. What's the skill? Well, you said it.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I would say he wants to be an agent.

[A]

Turn him into a waiter.

[B]

The one thing would be cultivate relationships. That's number one.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

But then do those things to actually develop.

[A]

The dude's gonna be sitting there with his. Damn. Why you keep bringing me food? I'm sorry. When I got into the bit, Rich Paul told me to be a waiter now.

[B]

No, seriously. But I want that for my own kids, though. Though. Go and work in the service industry.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It just helps you develop in a different way.

[A]

Because I waited tables. So I'm ready for the next step.

[B]

If you become dependent of the business card. I look at that at one thing about the Great Depression. Right. When I used to read about the Great Depression, obviously I wasn't a part of it. But whenever we went through what we went through in 2008, which was another.

[A]

It was the biggest economic shock since the Great Depression. Depression. The Great Recession.

[B]

The recession in 2008, I didn't feel anything because I, I. Because it's always been a recession from my seat.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I didn't know any different. So I only knew to get up every day and get to it. I didn't have the luxury of understanding what was up and what was down.

[A]

See, to me, the service. It sounds like your advice is get up every day and get to it. When I say hustling, that's what I mean. That sounds like if you. I could distill. What you're saying is you got to figure it out, get up every day and get to it. Yeah.

[B]

You have to. But I'm saying if you want to be in the representation business, one, it's forever changing now. It's moving. It's not standing still. Right. It's a moving target. The representation business is a moving target. If you're in the talent business, you have. You have to understand how to evaluate talent. You have to understand how to cultivate relationships. You have to. You have to pinpoint who is actually the decision maker. Because you may think this person's decision maker because they're the loudest, but they're not calling. They're not even calling the shots.

[A]

Yeah, it's interesting.

[B]

So you have to feel your way through all those things. And it's, it's a never ending thing. It's not a, it's not a, it's not a 9 to 5. The representation business is not a 9 to 5. Your life is someone else's life. You have to sacrifice summers, you have to sacrifice different days. You have to, you have to wear many different hats. If I get a call right now, even in my position, if I get a call right now, it could be something as simple as, I've gotten calls

[A]

from clients in the middle of this show. Show. And I answer and we have to pause it because you have to go out and take it in the hall.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. You're always available to the clients.

[B]

Always, Always, always. So I don't, I don't. I'm not trying to be funny in that regard because a lot of kids ask me about this and I tell them it's not as easy as it looks.

[A]

It's not glamorous.

[B]

In order to want to be in the position I'm in today, you had to be willing to take the step 25 years ago. That's the thing. I told you I was fired twice before the draft. And my first ever draft. I never made it to the draft. I was fired before and after and after. If that's not discouraging, what is? You have to fight through that. Right? You have to.

[A]

By the way, let me find out that, that Google's calls you retain really is like wings and fries, right? Like going out into. No, I don't do that.

[B]

You talking about dummy leg flights. You're talking about again, changing, changing clothes in bathrooms or hotels. Because I'm just doing a quick turnaround. There's no need for me to check in this room. There's no need for me to get a room. I'm in Raleigh, Durham. I'm doing a quick turnaround. I'm driving back.

[A]

But you have to put in the FaceTime. You have to, you got to get on the plane, you got to drive, you got to do whatever you do. Even if it feels like it doesn't, it's not work. So this is, I mean, this is. We could do a whole pot on this. But this is something that I think about sometimes, about how when you play chess, people think that the way it works is this grandmaster, he's going to checkmate me in six moves doesn't work like that. The reason that is a grandmaster is because they accumulate small advantages with every move in position and eventually strangle you. Right. Like it's just the accumulation of small advantages. And what you're saying is sometimes you have to drive all the way across the country to put in a half an hour of FaceTime and it doesn't feel like it's worth it. Right. But that stuff adds up over time.

[B]

Yes. And don't expect a thank you. You're doing what you expected to do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you really have to have the grit for the job. You have to have the grit. And I think people think that I just woke up and someone was like,

[A]

here, LeBron James said, I want that Warren Moon jersey. And then, yeah, here's a million bucks.

[B]

There's so many different. I mean, like you said, we could talk about it for four hours. But, but at some point I will give a lot of the the different, I would say truck stops along the way of the, of the agent highway that I drove.

[A]

Will you whiteboard it?

[B]

I will whiteboard it.

[A]

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[C]

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