Giannis Reaction, NFL Coaching Carousel, and State of the Agent Business

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul — Episode Summary

Episode: Giannis Reaction, NFL Coaching Carousel, and State of the Agent Business
Date: January 28, 2026
Hosts: Max Kellerman & Rich Paul
Produced by: The Ringer

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Overview

In this episode, Max Kellerman and super-agent Rich Paul cover the latest seismic shifts in the NBA and NFL, sharing unfiltered insights on the reported Giannis Antetokounmpo trade talks, NFL coaching changes, and the evolving landscape of the sports agent business. With their trademark blend of candor, humor, and deep industry knowledge, Max and Rich unpack front-office moves, player development trends, and the sometimes-messy world of representation. The conversation swings from 90s nostalgia to serious debate over the meaning of greatness in sports — and what agents and players really owe to each other.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. 90s Inspiration, Gear, and Music (00:39–04:15)

• The episode kicks off with light banter about 90s fashion (Averex/Avirex jackets, Timberland boots, and throwback rap album “Harlem World”).
  • Rich explains his outfit is inspired by the movie Belly and his Cleveland roots:
    • Rich Paul: “These are the 40 belows...we call them super Tims in Cleveland. Tupac rocked these on Juice…” [00:58]
  • They reminisce about shopping at local Cleveland stores and how music and style defined an era.

2. College Basketball and Player Development (04:15–07:28)

• Deep dive into the high quality of this year’s freshman class; focus on differences between “training” and “development.”
  • Rich notes the sophistication and basketball IQ of current prospects, crediting quality development over mere training:
    • Rich Paul: “There’s a difference between training and development...I’m seeing guys play with better pace, make the right pass out of double teams.” [04:43]
  • They mention standouts like Caleb Wilson (UNC), players from Arizona, Arkansas, Michigan, and “sleeper” Isaiah Harwell (Houston).
  • Max Kellerman: “It looks like there are multiple teams with at least NBA rotation pieces.” [06:03]

3. NBA Bombshell: Giannis Trade Rumors (08:26–24:02)

The Trade Deadline Chessboard

• Max introduces news that the Milwaukee Bucks are reportedly open to listening to trade offers for Giannis Antetokounmpo.
  • Rich initially refuses to comment directly, referencing “fake news” and trade deadline chaos:
    • Rich Paul: “I’ve been in enough fake news this week. I don’t want to talk about anything.” [09:55]
• Max analyzes potential suitors for Giannis:
  • Teams named: Atlanta, New York Knicks, Golden State Warriors, Cleveland Cavaliers, LA Lakers, San Antonio Spurs.
  • Detailed breakdown of what a Giannis trade would require: matching contracts, draft capital, young talent, expiring deals.
    • Rich Paul: “If you want a first-team All-NBA level player, you’re going to need assets, multiple firsts, young talent, and expiring contracts.” [20:41]
• Rich explains the impact of the “second apron” (salary cap) rules and why that complicates deals for some teams:
  • Rich Paul: “There’s a lot of second apron teams…now you can’t aggregate contracts. You have to get under the apron.” [14:17]
  • Max pushes for specifics—“Does Giannis make the Knicks, Hawks, or Warriors a real title threat this season?”—but Rich side-steps, citing his professional role.
    • Ongoing friendly tension as Max seeks clarity and Rich guards industry secrets due to the sensitive timing.

Notable Quotes

• Max Kellerman (about trade aggressiveness):
  “Your window of opportunity to actually win a championship…maximum you’re gonna get is three years…if you have the ability to be aggressive, be aggressive.” [19:16]
• Rich Paul (on trade realities):
  “No one wants to lose the trade…there’s a lot that goes into trades. It’s not as simple as, ‘Oh, I’d do it like this.’” [22:08]

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4. NFL Coaching Carousel (24:32–33:54)

Cleveland Browns & New York Giants

• News: Todd Monken hired as head coach by the Cleveland Browns (from Baltimore).
  • Rich (a Browns fan) is optimistic about the culture Monken brings:
    • Rich Paul: “He’s going to bring a calmness to the locker room, a confidence...demand professionalism, practice habits…all the things it takes to be a really good team.” [26:38]
• Max is frustrated Monken didn't join the Giants’ staff but recognizes the move is good for Monken.

Chargers, Steelers & Broader Trends

• Chargers praised for pairing Harbaugh with Mike McDaniels as OC—seen as a “great chess move” [28:58]
• Steelers hire Mike McCarthy as head coach post-Tomlin, sparking debate:
  • Max wonders if fans were too quick to want Tomlin gone, highlighting Tomlin’s ability to overachieve with less.
  • Discuss McCarthy’s Super Bowl with Rodgers, but contrast with underachievement relative to talent.

Notable Quotes

• Rich Paul: “The expectations have changed...losing is not tolerated. There’s going to be some accountability.” [27:22]

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5. Max’s Rant: Belichick, GOAT Status, and the Hall of Fame (34:17–44:06)

• Max launches into a rant about Bill Belichick being snubbed as a first-ballot Hall of Famer:
  • Max Kellerman: “Bill Belichick is not a first ballot hall of Famer. That is ridiculous.” [34:25]
  • Discusses Belichick’s career, Brady vs. Belichick debate, and the effect of post-Brady seasons on Belichick’s “undisputed GOAT” status.
  • Rich maintains that it’s impossible to have an “undisputed” GOAT coach in football, pointing out the team and partner dynamics.
    • Rich Paul: “There is no such thing as an undisputed goat coach. An undisputed heavyweight champion is one thing—you’re bringing boxing into football.” [39:54]
  • Both critique how voting and institutional politics influence Hall of Fame selections, with Rich sharing frustrations from the NBA world too.
    • Rich Paul: “You got somebody voting that I believe shouldn’t have a vote.” [41:06]

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6. State of the Agent Business & College Sports (45:56–68:28)

NIL, Transfers, and Regulating a Chaotic Landscape

• Prompted by a recent high-profile college transfer, Rich is asked how he’d fix the messiness of current college sports.
  • He advocates for recognizing college football/basketball as professional leagues, introducing contracts and transfer fees:
    • Rich Paul: “There should be transfer fees that come with that within the transfer window…because that’s the only thing that really screws it up.” [47:51]
  • Highlights the lack of certification for NIL (Name, Image, Likeness) agents and resulting chaos and lack of business standards.
  • Suggests a structure akin to the European soccer model—or potentially a separate, consolidated league for top Power 5 schools in football.
• Max and Rich lament the historic unfairness for college athletes, recalling the NCAA’s “cream cheese on a bagel” level of regulation.

Agents: Saturation, Skill, and Misconceptions

• Rich details how the agent field is overpopulated (“5,000 agents for 450 NBA players”), leading to undercutting and diluted expertise.
  • Reflects on his own career path—how being close to LeBron created unique opportunities but required proving his skills through hard work outside basketball:
    • Rich Paul: “I did not represent LeBron until his ninth year in the league…because he’d seen me recruit and work in every side of the industry.” [57:44]
  • Emphasizes the difference between “building a book of business” and actually “building a business.”
  • Warns young agents and families against a purely transactional mindset and stresses relationships and real expertise.

The Jerry Maguire Effect

• Debates how movies like Jerry Maguire created unrealistic and theatrical views of sports agents:
  • Rich Paul: “It was a love story—it’s not an agent story. The ‘show me the money’ thing, it’s a magic trick...the reality is, it’s a very hard job.” [61:38]

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7. Closing Banter: Eddie Murphy Movies & More (69:41–End)

• Light-hearted back-and-forth about classic Eddie Murphy films (Trading Places, Coming to America, Harlem Nights), and comedy legends like Jamie Foxx.
  • Plans to bracket best comedians/actors as a future show topic.
  • Playful ribbing about time management and who talks more in each episode.
• Ending tease: Next episode will discuss the shoe business, LeBron/Wemby, and NFL running backs.

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Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• “You decide the weather. Depending on where you want to be — if you can go wherever you want.”
  • — Rich Paul (09:15), waxing philosophical about wealth and mobility.
• On Giannis trade speculation:
  • “Does he make the Knicks a legit championship threat this season? I say yes to that.”
    — Max Kellerman (16:38)
  • [Rich repeatedly declines to comment, citing trade deadline ethics.]
• On leadership hires:
  • “Losing is not tolerated...a loser’s mindset—there’s going to be some accountability.”
    — Rich Paul (27:22)
• On Belichick’s Hall of Fame snub:
  • “He should be a First Ballot Hall of Famer. I don’t care if it was Spygate.”
    — Rich Paul (39:47)
• On the chaos of the NIL/agent world:
  • “Anybody can be an NIL agent. There’s no certification...then what brings forth a proper protocol within that? There’s a lack thereof.”
    — Rich Paul (48:00)
• On agent reality:
  • “Most people think, ‘Oh, LeBron just gave Rich the opportunity.’ I did not represent LeBron until his ninth year in the league…”
    — Rich Paul (57:14)

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Notable Segments (by Timestamp)

• Early banter on fashion/90s nostalgia: 00:39–04:15
• Freshman college hoops & NBA draft prospects: 04:15–07:28
• Giannis trade talk (deep-dive): 08:26–24:02
  • Max’s trade breakdown: 11:34
  • Rich’s trade philosophy & NBA realities: 13:14, 20:41, 22:08
• NFL coaching carousel: 24:32–33:54
  • Browns/Monken: 24:45
  • Chargers/Steelers/McCarthy-Tomlin: 28:58–33:54
• Max’s “Belichick rant”: 34:17–44:06
• State of the agent business/college sports/NIL: 45:56–68:28
  • Concrete suggestions for NIL/college transfers: 47:51, 51:06
• Closing (comedy/movie banter): 69:41–end

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Tone & Style

• Energetic, authentic, and often playful. Rich frequently punctuates industry wisdom with humor and a refusal to give away trade secrets, while Max keeps the conversation moving and challenges his cohost to go deeper.
• Several moments of playful argument (e.g., who talks more, who put whom onto a classic album).

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode is essential for anyone interested in the real business behind headline sports stories:

• Why NBA superstars rarely move — and what it takes if they do
• How the NFL’s new coaching crop will shape teams
• How the agent industry actually works, versus the Hollywood hype
• Why the college sports world is chaos — and what might fix it

With honesty, expertise, and moments of pure comedy, Max and Rich make sense of a fast-shifting landscape, never shying away from the tough questions.

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Next up: LeBron/Wemby, the shoe business, and the hosts’ all-time running back debate—plus more on trading places, in sports and life.

Transcript

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Rich Paul]

Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Sup? Look at you with the. Listen, with the Averex.

[Rich Paul]

I'm gonna tell you something.

[Max Kellerman]

Is this Throwback Wednesday?

[Rich Paul]

I'm gonna tell you what it is. First of all, I'm representing for my family back East.

[Max Kellerman]

What are those?

[Rich Paul]

Arctic blasts?

[Max Kellerman]

I don't mean it like that either. I mean, those are. Those are fresh.

[Rich Paul]

What are those?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

See, these are the 40 belows, but we call them super Tims in Cleveland. Right, but these are the 40 belows. You know, Tupac rocked these on Juice when he was coming down the hill. Yeah. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what I didn't like about Juice? The worst part for me, what is Tupac rolls up on him at one scene and goes and says, partner, like, real West Coast. And it was supposed to be a movie about.

[Rich Paul]

Did they not say that on the east coast, partner?

[Max Kellerman]

No, that's strictly West Coast.

[Rich Paul]

But here's what. But then the Avorex is inspired by, you know, the end of the scene in Belly. I know you didn't never watch Belly. I'm joking, Max. I'm joking. But remember, Belly's one of the. But remember when Nas. Remember when Nas at the end, he get out to cl. And he walk up on the kid. Kid telling my. I just got bagged. He had the white Avorex on. I went crazy in the movie. I went crazy because we had a store on Coventry called Sunshine, and I used to go there every week, cop a new avy. We used to go there all the time. And they all.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich was getting money. Wolves cop a new one every week.

[Rich Paul]

Well, every other week, I got my hands on a.

[Max Kellerman]

If I got my hands on a pelly pelly that was lasting me the whole season.

[Rich Paul]

It felt like everybody. Next season, I went there every week to see which new ones they had. But probably every other week.

[Max Kellerman]

Every other week, Rich.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, because it was a thing, you know, it didn't last for a whole Year. But, you know, you get in that moment where you. In that copping moment.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And they. And they was coming with the flavors all. That's why I was going in. I was going in there so much.

[Max Kellerman]

It's just like colorways with kicks or white teams switch up their jerseys.

[Rich Paul]

These was like the original. Just the plain Averex. And they started coming with the hockey men on the back. They start all different ones.

[Max Kellerman]

And Avarex. See, I say Avarex. Maybe I'm saying it wrong all the time.

[Rich Paul]

No, Avorex. Avorex. It's really Avarex. Same thing. But. But. And then the leather was so soft. Like, the more you wore it, the softer the leather.

[Max Kellerman]

But the collar stood up. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Sometimes the collar would fold, just depending on how long you wore it. But anyway, so that scene. And Nas tell the young kid. He said, man, you know, you got to rise above all this madness, man, all this pettiness. You got to rise above it. So this was inspired. Then I come through bumping that Harlem world that makes Harlem World. Yeah, I was just 90s inspired today. And so my. This whole thing is 90s inspired by the.

[Max Kellerman]

I thought it was gonna be Arctic Blast after Big was killed. I thought, it's Mace's time, right?

[Rich Paul]

Mace was that. That album is a classic.

[Max Kellerman]

Is a classic.

[Rich Paul]

Classic. No Skips.

[Max Kellerman]

I think Jay. I think Jay. Cause he was sort of like Puff and Big rolled up into one. Like, Big had the crown. Jay was his number one contender. And then Jay just took over. Cause he was both guys and one guy.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, he was in a league of his own.

[Max Kellerman]

But Mace, there was a couple years there where.

[Rich Paul]

But that 90s pocket between music and gear.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, it just. It was the golden age. And then I put everything about that.

[Max Kellerman]

Then I was playing the song Mace did on their pod.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I put it on my TikTok, by the way. Did you know that?

[Max Kellerman]

No, I didn't even know.

[Rich Paul]

We edited the fact that we still. And you and I were listening to the music. I put it on my TikTok, but I feel like a freshman. Not my freshman year. That was like, more my sophomore year. But are you paying attention to the freshmen in college basketball right now, by the way?

[Max Kellerman]

A lot of good players. Arizona's stacked with them.

[Rich Paul]

Arizona, Arkansas has a really good one. Nyu, Michigan, North Carolina.

[Max Kellerman]

I know this is, like. Hasn't been this way for a minute.

[Rich Paul]

I tell you something. You know what I'm attributing it to? All these kids look like they're a lot more Focused on their development.

[Max Kellerman]

Why do you think that is?

[Rich Paul]

I think because they are attaching themselves to not just high profile trainers, but they're really being developed. Like there's a difference between training and development. Training, you getting in there with cones or whatever, but like you don't have a plan development. You can see, because I'm seeing guys make the right pass out of double teams. I'm seeing guys play the pick and roll properly. I'm seeing guys play with a better pace, you know, and I'm just looking, you know, I look at Caleb Wilson in North Carolina, who I believe when it's all said and done, you do a redraft is going to be probably the number one pick. You know, in terms. He might not go number one, but he should be. He should probably go number one or be in the conversation for number one. He's like Kevin Durant. I mean, I'm sorry, Kevin Garnett mixed with Chris Bosh.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, when they play the right way, when guys start worrying about that stuff, when they stay in school a little bit longer, that kind of thing. What it does really to me is elevate their floor. Like your ceiling is what it's going to be based on how gifted you are. And then. Yeah, you got to. And of course it'll elevate your ceiling too, if you're training the right way. But the main thing is if the fundamentals are there.

[Rich Paul]

The fundamentals higher. Yeah. You see the kids of Arizona, Burrys and Coape, they'll be. They should be lottery picks, pros for a long time.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Coming off strong. There are teams where you see. There are a lot of. There. It looks like there are multiple teams with multiple. At least rotation. NBA rotation pieces.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, they have a good balance. No, but Burry's is a real. A real guard in the NBA. And Pete is gonna be real.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Acuff is real. Debanced is real.

[Max Kellerman]

It's a great draft.

[Rich Paul]

Peterson's real. Like, you know, these guys are real. And there's a young kid, I think he's. He's not a freshman, but the kid out of Texas Tech Christian. He's real. Just the pace, not up to the playbook.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm not up to the point where I know everyone's name.

[Rich Paul]

I know all of them.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm just coming out of. I'm just coming out of college football. We're not at the super bowl yet. NBA is going. I'm watching games, but I don't know everyone's name.

[Rich Paul]

See, those are the Guys at the top. You got to know guys like that. Sleepers, right? There's a kid at Arizona, he's not. I mean, not Arizona, Illinois. He's not a sleeper no more.

[Max Kellerman]

This is your job to these guys.

[Rich Paul]

I know. You know, but there's a sleeper. There's a real sleeper. All right, who's going to be. I'm going to give you this nugget. Okay, who's going to be really good.

[Max Kellerman]

Ready for the nugget? Show hasn't even started yet. He's giving you names.

[Rich Paul]

His name is Isaiah Harwell. He goes to Houston.

[Max Kellerman]

Isaiah Harwell. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

NBA frame can really shoot it. Not playing that much, but I'm telling you, whenever he decides, could be two years, whatever the case may be.

[Max Kellerman]

Game over. Max Kellerman and Rich Paul, we start right now. Game over is presented by fanduel. Fanduel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick back bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on the NFL playoffs all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com gameover to get started. 21 and over in present in select states or 18 and over in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnecticut. All right, we have really big NBA news and NFL news right off the top of the show. Rich, let's start with the NBA.

[Rich Paul]

The boots.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, I do.

[Rich Paul]

You know why?

[Max Kellerman]

You're standing on business.

[Rich Paul]

That was Monday.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

What?

[Rich Paul]

I gotta get ready for war. J. Deadline is nearing.

[Max Kellerman]

Uh huh.

[Rich Paul]

So you gotta strap up, buckle down. You gotta be ready.

[Max Kellerman]

I see that. You look like you're heading back east too. That's what that looks like.

[Rich Paul]

Well, see, I'm not letting you trick me into something I don't even know what that means. And I'm not commenting on that comment you just made.

[Max Kellerman]

I'd have no ulterior.

[Rich Paul]

I said I'm representing for my people.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm just saying it looks like you. You're heading to New York or Cleveland or somewhere with those. Those are not your typical LA boots. Let's put it that way.

[Rich Paul]

No, but at the end of the day, you know, you decide the weather.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know about that one.

[Rich Paul]

Why not?

[Max Kellerman]

At the end of the day, you decide the weather.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Depending on where you want to be. If you can go wherever you want to go.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, yes.

[Rich Paul]

Then you decide the weather.

[Max Kellerman]

If you're Rich, Paul, you can decide the weather.

[Rich Paul]

No, I didn't say that. I said you decide the weather.

[Max Kellerman]

Joe Six Pack ain't deciding the weather. He's. What are you talking about?

[Rich Paul]

Joe Sixpack can decide a weather if he. If he want to. If he want.

[Max Kellerman]

If it's. If it's raining.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, if he wants to.

[Max Kellerman]

Uhhuh.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, listen. Giannis, the Bucks. It is reported an hour ago that the Bucks are willing to listen to offers for Giannis.

[Rich Paul]

I didn't see that. Huh? I didn't see that.

[Max Kellerman]

You didn't see that? Well, I saw it. You know. You want to talk about that a little bit? You have thoughts about Giannis? Cause I'll give you mine.

[Rich Paul]

No, I don't.

[Max Kellerman]

I'd rather hear your thoughts about Giannis, actually.

[Rich Paul]

I've been in enough fake news this week. I don't want to talk about anything.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, okay, I'll say some things in that case, and you can react or don't react. It's up to you.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, if you want me to educate you on what the trade deadline actually means.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I want to stay with Giannis right now.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not talking about.

[Max Kellerman]

Because, Rich, what do I always say?

[Rich Paul]

Hold on. I had to take this call.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. See that? Giannis is willing to listen. This dude takes a call, has to step off the set, but won't comment on it. Not only that, won't even take the call on the set. Cause we're not mic'd up. These are the mics. So when you step off, that's because you're not trying to let anybody hear what you're saying.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, that was a team.

[Max Kellerman]

That was a team.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. False alarm. That's bro.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, okay.

[Rich Paul]

It's early, but the calls come in early.

[Max Kellerman]

What do I always say? Eastern Conference team or Western Conference team?

[Rich Paul]

Come on, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Does it rhyme with the Hicks? All right, listen, what do I say? Especially when we talk about, like, the Dodgers, right? The Dodgers know when there's a blue chip guy there, and that's like, that's our guy. They don't let anything stop them. They go get that guy Mookie Betts. He's a Shohei Ohtani, Freddie Freeman, even Kyle Tucker this off season. It's like, that guy is going to be great, and. And he's gonna be great for years to come.

[Rich Paul]

Right?

[Max Kellerman]

If you believe that that is Giannis, obviously, Giannis is great if you believe his prime extends several years, Right? He's gonna be an absolutely elite player for several years. You do, and you think you're ready. You do what you have to do, Rich. When I think about teams where, if I were those teams, I'd be pursuing Giannis seriously. So you look at assets that match up in terms of salary and value to contribute to a team now and in the future. I look at Atlanta, I look at New York, I look at the Knicks, I look at who could really use it the way Katt has been kind of scuffling recently, and the chemistry seems off there. I look at Golden State because lacob is always aggressive when there's a star to be had, and he thinks it fits. And Jan, why waste the end of Steph's career? Maybe you could chip up again if you're Steph, right? And also Giannis allows you. If Steph ages out, maybe Giannis is still really, really good. The Cleveland Cavaliers. Cleveland has the pieces, has the salary to match up, has the value in the pieces to match up to. Bring in Giannis. LeBron's contract expires at the end of the season. Justin, Cleveland expires at the end of the season. You could add. LeBron could look at Cleveland and go, oh, like, because Cleveland was knocking at the door last season, they can think, we bring Giannis in, and then LeBron might be like, you know what? I could chip up again back home. Makes it makes a lot of sense for all the teams I just mentioned, and I'm probably leaving some out. Care to comment?

[Rich Paul]

Yes, but I won't comment specifically on any one thing you said. But what I will say is, if I'm running a team right, and I'm looking at the trade deadline, depending on where I'm at as a team, as an organization, if I have an opportunity to add a player in, which gives me or tilts to scale towards actually winning, right, Then I'm looking at my age, my age, time, my timeline based upon age on my team. I'm looking at the holes that need to be filled. Obviously, if you're getting a player that fills three holes, you know, both ends.

[Max Kellerman]

Of the floor, then play pause, by the way. But go ahead.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I'm not playing pause with that one. That fills three. Whatever you want to call it. Okay. Three things that are detrimental to the team that can help the team become better.

[Max Kellerman]

Better.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, great. Yeah, that was kind of wild.

[Max Kellerman]

It was a pausing.

[Rich Paul]

But see, this is. We're being influenced by.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes. By Children, basically we're being influen.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just. We can't do that anyway. So yes, I would look at how do I get my team to that position. And I think everyone wants to be there. But you name some things and some teams that again, when people get on these shows and just throw ideas out there, you have to take other things into consideration. There's a lot of second apron teams. So now you can't do certain things, you can't aggregate contracts and things like that. You have to get under the apron. So that takes a little time. Right. Or maybe you already have it lined up.

[Max Kellerman]

But that doesn't eliminate, I don't think the Knicks, the Hawks, the warriors or the Cavs. Am I missing, does it?

[Rich Paul]

Well, the Cavs are definitely a second.

[Max Kellerman]

Apron, but they can still. The Cavs have enough different moving parts with value that they could maneuver that you would think, right, they could probably.

[Rich Paul]

Get up under the apron. But what I'm saying is that's one aspect of it. Okay, then you have the teams that are buyers to necessarily start to build assets, right? Which draft capital they'll take in salaries and things like that, expirings. But they probably going to want some draft capital back. And if they're giving up a player, they trying to clean their books up. There's a lot of different moving pieces. But for what you're particularly talking about, if you're trying to win, then you make winning moves.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay?

[Rich Paul]

It's just as simple as that.

[Max Kellerman]

Now let's pick your basketball brain. Okay? So you're not CEO, you're not an agent, just basketball rich. Okay?

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Given what you will probably have to. Because when you get Giannis, there's something going the other way. It's not just draft capital because he makes a lot of money. You got to match up the salaries too. Given what you have to give up to get Giannis and here Atlanta may have an advantage because they have Porzingis expiring. They can do certain things that match his salary and then use draft capital so they can keep their valuable pieces largely intact on the team. One would think given what got what teams would have to go, what would be leaving to get Giannis to get there? Does Giannis make the Knicks a legit championship threat this season? I say yes to that.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I won't. Again, not making it about a specific player. I think that you have to evaluate the talent.

[Max Kellerman]

Does he make the Knicks though?

[Rich Paul]

Does he make it players? I think there's players that make every team a legit not every team. Every team that is trending in the direction towards contention.

[Max Kellerman]

And I would love to see him on the spurs, too, by the way, although I don't think that's likely. But I would say if Giannis is on the spurs, they could win the whole thing this year. If Giannis is on the Knicks, they could win the whole thing this year. Forget about going forward where he's going to make you better for several years. If Giannis was on the Hawks, they could win the whole thing this year. And I realize some of this is unlikely because you also have to gel. The stars have to figure out how to play together. Maybe you just make it to the Finals, but you can't get over the top till the following year. But is it possible for those teams to win the whole thing with Giannis right now? I believe so.

[Rich Paul]

I'm going to let you own this topic. It's all you, Cavs.

[Max Kellerman]

Maybe this year, definitely next year if LeBron shows up, too. But what about the Golden State warriors as currently constructed? Given what would have to go the other way, would Giannis make them title threats right now?

[Rich Paul]

Max, I repeat, I'm going to let you own this topic. But what do you think?

[Max Kellerman]

I don't think the Golden State. Golden State warriors are the one team where I think the following season, their title threats. I don't think so this year.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, well, whatever you think.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, if you refuse to comment, if the witness is not going to be cooperative, here's the thing.

[Rich Paul]

It's the trade deadline. I'm not getting into the game.

[Max Kellerman]

Where were you on the night of March 32nd? There was no March 32nd.

[Rich Paul]

I got you. I'm not getting into any of that. But what I will say to all teams that's out there and they feel like they can improve their team, be aggressive. You know, if I'm running a team, I'm just. If I can improve my team, because here's what.

[Max Kellerman]

But don't be stupid. There's a difference between aggressive. Like the Knicks were stupid when they traded for Carmelo. They could, because of course, good to get Carmelo. But what they gave up, they. They did not play poker well enough. Right? So you don't. You want to be aggressive, but you don't want to be taken to the cleaners. The difference is Carmelo was only going to accept it like that. That was their only trade partner. So the Knicks had more leverage than they realized. In this case, there are multiple trade partners. So you really do have to put your best foot forward because there's going to be a lot of competition. And this guy would be willing to, presumably to go to more than one location.

[Rich Paul]

When I say that, it's baked in. So what I'm saying is if you have the ability to be aggressive, be aggressive. You know, if I'm running a team because your window of opportunity to actually win a championship, it's like the maximum you're gonna get is three years. You're not getting five years of opportunity to win a championship. And so if I can make a move that puts me in a position, a better position to actually win and it's real, not none of this fantasy basketball stuff, like, it's real. And I'm telling my fan base, hey, I'm doing this because this really puts us over. Not even over.

[Max Kellerman]

Lakers have enough to get Giannis.

[Rich Paul]

This puts us in position to win. Then I'm doing it.

[Max Kellerman]

Lakers have enough to get Giannis.

[Rich Paul]

Do you think, Max, it's the deadline. I'm not giving you any information because.

[Max Kellerman]

He is still young enough. One would think that if he goes to the right situation, you could be thinking more than a championship. You could be thinking, we can contend this year, if we're lucky, maybe win, but at least contend for a title this year and then next year win. And then how old is Giannis going to be? Is he still going to be good enough to win, you know, another one or two or to contend for another two or three? And I think the answer to all that, given the destinations I discussed, is yes.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I will tell you.

[Max Kellerman]

I therefore agree that teams should be aggressive going after.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I will tell you. If you're looking to acquire a first team all NBA level player, then you're going to need assets, you're going to need multiple first round picks, you're probably going to need young talent and then expiring contracts. Well, which gives the bucks. No, not necessarily.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, if it does give the Bucs flexibility, ideally, if I'm the Bucs, I'd like young talent on team, favorable deals, an expiring or two so they come off the books, plus draft any specific player.

[Rich Paul]

All I'm doing is educating the audience so they don't necessarily listen to all these things that are out there in.

[Max Kellerman]

The vortex of before we move on to NFL. Because there's a big NFL story too, involving both of our teams, by the way. Yes.

[Rich Paul]

What I'm saying is let me educate.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay? So to educate, give people like two or three or four bullet points that will help them understand The Giannis thing.

[Rich Paul]

One, no, I'm not making it about Giannis. This is not about Giannis. This is about specifically if you want to improve your team at the level of getting in return an all NBA first team or second team, all NBA type player, that it's going to take multiple draft picks, more than likely a young player that that team could build around.

[Max Kellerman]

Atlanta.

[Rich Paul]

Atlanta, I don't know what. And you know, some other bells and whistles in there because a lot of times it's about optics. A lot of times, you know, no one wants to lose the trade. You know, it's very hard to unplug players that, you know, are really good and that are proven for those that are still trying to prove themselves, there's a lot that goes into trades and people think, oh, why we can't just trade this player and this salary? And they don't think about all the detail within. So it's not as simple as, oh, if I was in that seat, I would do it like this.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, except not bridge. Except when I think about it, Atlanta is in a good position to make that move for Giannis. Based on what you're saying.

[Rich Paul]

A lot of stuff you're saying, I would disagree with 80% of it, but that's just me.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, well, I'm going based on what you just told me, Golden State's not in as good a position to make that move. And yet I wouldn't rule out Golden State because of who the owner is. Like, when a guy is determined enough, a guy can, like a certain person in a certain position of power can make things happen if they're determined enough.

[Rich Paul]

Ownership matters.

[Max Kellerman]

And all of it strikes me as that kind of guy.

[Rich Paul]

He's a winner.

[Max Kellerman]

He's a winner even though his assets do not match up to me as well as Atlanta, based on what you're saying, or maybe even New York, based.

[Rich Paul]

On what you're saying, he's a winner and he's aggressive.

[Max Kellerman]

Atlanta, New York, Golden State, San Antonio, just because I want to see it. And I would think that LA wouldn't be out of it since they have. No. But Austin Reese is going to have to get paid, so. Yeah, but still. All right, listen, you ready to talk about the NFL?

[Rich Paul]

Sure. In a very positive way.

[Max Kellerman]

Was that positive?

[Rich Paul]

No, that was great.

[Max Kellerman]

No. Ok. You're not saying you had your takes.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not, I'm not getting into that. Okay. My role in that is education.

[Max Kellerman]

He didn't agree with.

[Rich Paul]

80% of what you said, I disagree with. But that's for another day.

[Max Kellerman]

What? 80%? Exactly.

[Rich Paul]

That's for another day. We'll get into it.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, well, once. Once this. All the dust settles, then we'll go over the details. Clip this part, because I want to know. Exactly. Let's. Because what we always do is this happens on every show.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

We're going to. And then no one ever looks back. Right. But I want to know what you.

[Rich Paul]

Were thinking about this, because I don't want to affect anything.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, I get it. I get it. NFL coach and carousel brother. All right, here's the news. Your Cleveland Browns.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Have a head coach.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, we do.

[Max Kellerman]

How are you feeling about it?

[Rich Paul]

I feel really good. You know why?

[Max Kellerman]

Why?

[Rich Paul]

Because he's coming from Todd Monken.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

Todd Monken. He's coming from a great Baltimore Ravens organization. And so I know that he's bringing some of that culture with him, and I look forward to it. I really do.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm not as pleased with this move because this was Harbaugh's guy, the Giants. Harbaugh is the head coach, and I just presume Moncton was going to be.

[Rich Paul]

That's why you should. That's why you think he wants to stay at oc?

[Max Kellerman]

No, of course not. You get a head coaching off Green. Yeah, of course. So that's what we made him mo money. Yeah, yeah, of course.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. You want your Giants to have everything.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, no, no. I'm just saying, they got hardball. I'm happy for Todd Monkin. He gets a head coaching opportunity. Right, I get that. I'm just saying, as a Giants fan, it's like, okay, we got our head coach, we got our O.C. no, we don't have our O.C.

[Rich Paul]

One of my best friends is named Todd. I believe in the Todds.

[Max Kellerman]

You believe in the Todds?

[Rich Paul]

Cause I do.

[Max Kellerman]

That's very loose connection.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, he's a winner. No, he's from Cleveland, too.

[Max Kellerman]

Super loose connection.

[Rich Paul]

No, it's not. I'm telling you.

[Max Kellerman]

Cause you know a Todd from Cleveland who's a winner. I'm just saying this has related to Todd Monken somehow.

[Rich Paul]

Those things, they add up.

[Max Kellerman]

They add up.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, they do.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, listen. So the Browns now have a guy who. And Monket and Harbaugh. I think one of the things you noticed in Baltimore is they work with what personnel they have. Doesn't seem like they're so set in their ways that they try to force a square peg into a round hole. Right. Like, they see what qualities they have, and they work around that. And in Shador they have a very different kind of quarterback than Lamar Jackson. Very different.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But here's what I was saying.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I'm saying that's a good thing. They're not gonna try to make him something he's not. They're gonna work with what he has.

[Rich Paul]

I think Todd is gonna bring a calmness to the locker room, a confidence to the locker room. He's gonna demand that guys execute. He's gonna demand a professionalism, practice habits, all the things that it takes to be a really good team. Now, am I saying he's going to turn them around and go to the super bowl next year? No, that's not what I'm saying. But we have to take baby steps. And the first step is hiring a guy like Todd Monken who's coming from an organization that doesn't take losing for, you know, losing is not something that they allow Lose. Right.

[Max Kellerman]

It's not tolerated.

[Rich Paul]

It's not tolerated.

[Max Kellerman]

Expectations have changed.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. A loser's mindset. There's going to be some accountability. Not saying it wasn't before, because I don't want to say it about Stefanski, but what I'm saying is we know the accountability is either going to be as consistent or increase. And he's been in. He's called plays in meaningful games throughout the years. You had to learn something next to hardball as well. Right.

[Max Kellerman]

About head coaching.

[Rich Paul]

You mean about head coaching. Right. And he may not be coming to Cleveland. That's just the beginning. Who knows who else he's bringing with him. I don't care if he brings the equipment manager with him from Baltimore.

[Max Kellerman]

Anything that someone he's had a good experience with that he sees more close.

[Rich Paul]

In our soil of culture. I want that person for my Browns.

[Max Kellerman]

The OC has become such a thing because a lot of teams nowadays, because of the emphasis on offense, they're thinking, what we want ideally, is an OC who's not. We're not just plucking a head coach from somewhere who's kind of run his course, but an OC who's maybe had a shot at a head coach years ago, didn't work out, whatever it is. But you really like his offensive philosophy or what he can do offensively, and hopefully he can become your head coach for years to come. Not that Monkin is a spring chicken, but that does seem like. You look at. Stefanski is a hot name because of his OC experience. Monkin. Now you see a lot of, obviously, McDaniel who winds up with it. By the way, the Chargers like we haven't even touched on that because that seems like old news already.

[Rich Paul]

No, that was a great move. That was a great chess move by the Chargers.

[Max Kellerman]

You look at the Chargers now, if you had to rank in order of importance, what a team has, do they have a head coach check, they got a quarterback check, they got a defense check, they got an OC check. And with Mahomes coming off injury and everything, that is a lot.

[Rich Paul]

But see, this is going back to Monkin. I believe taking Monkin and making him a head coach right now, when he brings in his oc, I don't think the goal is for him to be the head coach and the oc, but the goal is for him to now put an OC in place. He has a rich history of being an OC that he could develop this oc. Right. So you got belt and suspenders there. And at the same time you're bringing in a non a no nonsense guy that can really rally the troops. Now with the Chargers, you already had that in Harbaugh. Now you bringing in Mike McDaniels, who.

[Max Kellerman]

We know can make the offense go.

[Rich Paul]

Exactly. And I'm pretty sure they're paying him as if he was a head coach. See, that's the key. Are you willing to pay the other guys that really, this is the role they should be in. This is their genius role they should be in. But because that role may not come with an increase in payoff, they don't.

[Max Kellerman]

Want it as much you got.

[Rich Paul]

They don't want it as much.

[Max Kellerman]

But I say about Monkin, that's what we don't know about the head coaching part. Like you ha. You don't know until you see it be successful that an OC can be a head coach. So there's a little bit more of a gamble than let's say, with which is another guy.

[Rich Paul]

We've seen it with defensive coordinators.

[Max Kellerman]

What's that?

[Rich Paul]

We've seen defensive coordinators become head coaches and be extremely successful.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. And unsuccessful though too. Works both ways. The Steelers hire Mike McCarthy.

[Rich Paul]

I love that for Mike McCarthy.

[Max Kellerman]

Mike. I like it for Mike. Look, it's a nice fit in the sense that one thing you know about Mike McCarthy is he is a head coach. Yes, Clock management and all this kind of stuff, whatever. But his teams compete every year and he's from Pittsburgh.

[Rich Paul]

I think it's a great story.

[Max Kellerman]

You go From Tomlin to McCarthy, Tomlin to me, they're both head coach guys. To me, Tomlin's more of the head coach guy. Even than McCarthy. Like, they're both, and they've had similar levels of success, but Tomlin has had the success with much less than McCarthy's had. McCarthy's usually had really talented teams, and I would say they have different conference. Underachieved, a little bit different conference.

[Rich Paul]

Different conference.

[Max Kellerman]

Tomlin's had teams without quarterbacks who have overachieved.

[Rich Paul]

Different conference.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm just saying, if you're in Pittsburgh and you wanted Tomlin gone, careful what you wish for, because you may have a guy now who's more offensive oriented. But.

[Rich Paul]

But who said they wanted him gone?

[Max Kellerman]

But, oh, fans were. I mean, like, it was.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but that's fans. I'm talking about the organization.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, obviously, he's gone, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, he resigned. He was there 19 years. You want to say 99 years.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, if the. If I'm. If I'm the Pittsburgh Steelers, I'm not letting him out of the building. He's not getting out of the building. So the fact that he did get out of the building tells me.

[Rich Paul]

But what about what he wanted to do?

[Max Kellerman]

I'm going to make it worth his while to stay.

[Rich Paul]

If they made the money. I mean. I mean, at the end of the.

[Max Kellerman]

Day, Come on, man. It was a mutual thing. That was a mutual thing.

[Rich Paul]

They had to show him the respect, and he. Yes, of course. But what I'm saying is the Steelers, before we move on, the Steelers brand and culture and legacy will help Mike McCarthy in ways that it didn't have to help Mike Tomlin because he played there and he was that. But when you have that, you can get a coach like Mike McCarthy, that we could just focus on being the head coach. And a lot of other things come with the territory. It's like a bed in the bag with the steelers.

[Max Kellerman]

I like McCarthy in the sense that he, as I said, he's been a successful NFL head coach. It's not easy. I get it.

[Rich Paul]

I think he'll do a good job.

[Max Kellerman]

I thought he underachieved in Green Bay with Aaron Rodgers. Like. Like people will compare him to Harbaugh or to Tomlin and say, look, this is how many games they've won. This is how many championships they've won. Yeah. Doesn't matter how many games.

[Rich Paul]

Does.

[Max Kellerman]

How many championships. Therefore, he's the equivalent of the other guys. You have to look at what's around them. Max, he won a Super bowl with Aaron Rodgers, who after that, they kind of underachieved considering Aaron Rodgers and the talent on the team. They were imperfect teams, but you Thought every year they had a chance to win the whole thing. They didn't. Which is why McCarthy was eventually replaced. He then goes to Dallas, and Dallas, I wouldn't say, achieved more success with him than without him. They kind of stayed the same. And if he thinks Rogers and Dak Prescott wasn't enough to win a Super bowl, wait till he gets to Pittsburgh, you know, like, you know, well, let's see.

[Rich Paul]

Just don't beat my Browns. I don't care what. What happens as long as they lose to the Browns.

[Max Kellerman]

So while we're on the subject, I have a little rant to do. Rich, while we're on the subject.

[Rich Paul]

Wait a minute. Yeah. How long is this rant going to be?

[Max Kellerman]

Five minutes.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, wait, let me put my clock on.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, put the clock on.

[Rich Paul]

Cause you talking about five minutes.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Every time we go through this.

[Max Kellerman]

Good. By the way. Good. Then at the end of five minutes, we could move on.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. You ready?

[Max Kellerman]

I don't get paid overtime.

[Rich Paul]

Are you ready?

[Max Kellerman]

I'm ready.

[Rich Paul]

Go.

[Max Kellerman]

Bill Belichick is not a first ballot hall of Famer. He was not put on the ballot.

[Rich Paul]

Are you saying he's not?

[Max Kellerman]

He's not. He did not make it into the hall of Fame on the first ballot.

[Rich Paul]

That's ridiculous. That is ridiculous.

[Max Kellerman]

Now Belichick at 1. Okay, first of all, I'm not gonna talk about the fact that he's not a first ballot hall of Famer. He's obviously a first ballot hall of Famer. The fact that he's not is a ridiculous political thing. He has some enemies somewhere. Who knows if it's because of Spygate or Deflategate. I know Eagles fans who are very mad because the Patriots in a Super bowl knew what was coming before the Eagles. Okay. And who knows how far taping practice was going back. That's a big thing. Made a lot of people mad. It's cheating. Belichick is a cheater. That's a statement.

[Rich Paul]

They wasn't the only team to do that.

[Max Kellerman]

Of course not. But they got caught. And Belichick is very thorough. So maybe he was cheating better than the other teams. But that is true. That is not enough to keep him out of the hall of Fame. Spy. Deflategate. Not enough to keep him out of the hall of Fame even on the first ballot. It's so ridiculous that he's not on the first ballot. Hall of Famer. I'm not going to even address that part. Of course, of course. He should have been. But I do wanna address this. Rich. At one point, Bill Belichick was the undisputed goat. NFL head coach. He sat on the throne. He had all the belts. Undisputed champ. He's not anymore. He's no longer. He might have a belt. You might even think he's got the best one. He's your number one. But, you know, he ain't the undisputed NFL guy Head coach anymore. That's not. He is not undisputed. There is no undisputed different. You can. There's an argument now is my point. He's in the argument. Maybe he's even winning the argument by a little bit. He's not undisputed.

[Rich Paul]

What did you do?

[Max Kellerman]

And I will tell you why. I'll tell you why.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, tell me.

[Max Kellerman]

He never did anything in Cleveland worth talking about. Really. He didn't. He did. Like how you make a deep playoff run. You get to the AFC championship game with Bill Belichick. No, you didn't. He gets to New England. He wins six Super Bowl. He won six Super Bowls. Which is why it's absurd that he's not a first ballot hall of Famer.

[Rich Paul]

Duh.

[Max Kellerman]

And it's also why he's in the conversation for coach. Head coach. However, he never won it without Tom Brady. And of course. Oh, he gets credit for developing Tom Brady at that. On the defense. Yes, he does. That's why, as I said, he's in the conversation. But the greatest. The two great debates of the 21st century in sports have been Jordan or LeBron Jordan.

[Rich Paul]

And we know the answer to that.

[Max Kellerman]

We do.

[Rich Paul]

And yeah, you're wrong.

[Max Kellerman]

Is it more Belichick or was it more Brady? We had a real life experiment rich with variables and controls and variables. Brady left Belichick. Did he pick a great team to go to? He did. But he didn't just make the playoffs. He won the super bowl six times. Hold on. In his first season without Belichick. Well, then what did Belichick do? He never got back to the playoffs. Never. Never whiffed the playoffs without Brady. Brady went back to the playoffs the following year and almost beat the eventual champs. And took heroics at the end of the game from Stafford to beat Brady the second in instant. And then. And then Brady goes away. Belichick still doesn't win a single playoff game. Doesn't even get back to the point where he loses his job and he goes to college. And they stink in college. Look, I give him all the credit for winning those Super Bowls with Brady. He is absolutely in the goat NFL conversation as head coach. But what has Transpired since Brady left. You cannot seriously argue he is undisputed anymore, Rich, because he's not. He's just not. How much time we got?

[Rich Paul]

I'm not telling you.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, because I don't know if I should start another.

[Rich Paul]

No, you are. Your rant. If this is your rant, well, then.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm gonna go on to the next thing, which is Josh McDaniels. Josh McDaniels is the guy, actually, who is straddling errors right now. Josh McDaniels is the guy. The Patriots were great all through Brady Belichick. But when Josh McDaniels wasn't there, it wasn't like they were known for their offense.

[Rich Paul]

Right?

[Max Kellerman]

When Josh McDaniels was there, they were setting records. Now, they had Randy Moss, and later on they had other stuff. I get it, but. And now he's back. And as soon as Josh McDaniels gets back, the Patriots look like this again. Now, their defense has been excellent throughout the playoffs, but look what's happening with this young quarterback. And that shines a light on the importance of the O.C. you know, like. Yes, it's the coaches league. Coach. Quarterback. What comes after coaching quarterback before maybe even your number one wide receiver or your left tackle or offensive line or your defense. It might be the oc.

[Rich Paul]

The time is up, Max. I did it enough for the rant.

[Max Kellerman]

I hit it right on the. I hit it right. No, you didn't. Be the oc. No, you didn't. That was the end of the point.

[Rich Paul]

Let me tell you something. Who do you want Belichick to win the super bowl with Mugsy Bogues at quarterback? What do you want me to do?

[Max Kellerman]

You want me to answer that?

[Rich Paul]

What do you want the man to do? Who cares if Brady won a championship somewhere else?

[Max Kellerman]

You want me to answer that?

[Rich Paul]

The quarterback was Drew Bledsoe. He got hurt. He won with Tom Brady six times. He should be a First Battle hall of Famer. I don't care if it was Spy Gate.

[Max Kellerman]

Is he the undisputed goat coach or who is he the undisputed goat coach?

[Rich Paul]

Thing is an undisputed coach. He used to be coaching.

[Max Kellerman]

No one made the argument against Belichick.

[Rich Paul]

You. First of all, there is no such thing as an undisputed goat coach. An undisputed heavyweight champion of the world is one thing you bring in boxing into football. He is a first ballot hall of Fame coach. He probably could have been that as a. As an assistant coach to go into the hall of Fame.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. The coordinator for the Giants Was great.

[Rich Paul]

He's damn sure that as a head coach. And I don't care who he spied on. You think Vince Lombardi didn't spy on somebody got the trophy named after him. Everyone's spying. Everyone's trying to gain an edge.

[Max Kellerman]

He may have been spying better than the others.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just telling you. So it's like, come on, man. Like, enough is enough.

[Max Kellerman]

Do you remember?

[Rich Paul]

And I'm gonna tell you another thing. These voting systems. Cause we have the same problem in the NBA when you have people voting for all NBA. And then, you know, we talked about it with the players from a all star perspective. But even more so, that's child's play compared to all NBA votes. Those are different because those could be the difference between 40 and 66.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. $40 million. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So. But you got somebody voting that I believe shouldn't have a vote.

[Max Kellerman]

Because I want to. Okay, you bring up.

[Rich Paul]

For several reasons.

[Max Kellerman]

You brought up two different things I want to address. One, I always defended Belichick. Let's get back to the first ballot stuff in a second. And the votes. Okay, I always. Because we were on the same page. Duh. He's a first ballot hall of Famer. Yes, he is. He's absolutely in the conversation for goat coach. I think he was once undisputed. He's not anymore. We could. But I always defended him about. I'm one of the people who said, of course it's more Belichick than Brady the whole time. This is a coach's league. Look what he did with.

[Rich Paul]

Why does it have to be more than.

[Max Kellerman]

Because that's part of the argument. Like, that's fun. So look what he did with Matt.

[Rich Paul]

It's fun. But what happens is. See, this is the problem. This is why we created this show, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

Because all the fun guys are out there doing fun stuff.

[Max Kellerman]

Can't we both.

[Rich Paul]

And misleading the audience.

[Max Kellerman]

Can't we do both?

[Rich Paul]

No, but you're having too much fun.

[Max Kellerman]

I like having fun.

[Rich Paul]

No, let's move on.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, hold on, hold on. So I always said it was Belichick, and I was proven wrong. Look, you're right. Is there absolute definitive proof? No, but it was as close to a real. A perfect real life experiment as you could ask. Right. Like it's. Nothing could be perfect. Okay, now they're in separate places. What happens now? One guy, I figured at least he'd make a playoff one time. Don't even win a game. Just make it to the playoffs. Couldn't do it. The other guy Wins the Super bowl and gets right back to the playoffs and almost beats the eventual super bowl champs in those play. But I always defended Belichick, because the Matt Castle season, you said, what do you want him to win with when he had Matt castle? They won 11 games. And I know they didn't make the playoffs, but they won 11 games. Oh, my God, that's incredible. Look at that. With Matt Castle. Sorry, Matt, I'm not taking a shot. Listen, but my point is this, Rich. They had won 16 games the year before, had a perfect season, then they lost the Giants in the Super Bowl. So they're coming way off that standard. Number one and number five games a lot in the NFL. Number two, they didn't make the playoffs. And keep in mind, as I pointed out on the show the other day, the AFC east through the 20 years that Belichick and Brady were together, 20 years was the worst quarterback division in the history of football.

[Rich Paul]

Any.

[Max Kellerman]

Literally any division in football right now. Any division. NFC East, NFC West, AFC East, AFC west has more good quarterbacks in it right now than the AFC east did in two decades and 20 years. Where the best you had was. Was Testaverde and Chad Pennington when he was healthy, that was it.

[Rich Paul]

Like this, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

No, but the point is, even the Castle season, which I used as evidence, why Belichick is the goat when you look back at it. Not really.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. You're a music guy, right?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I like music.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. How many great artists you know that are not songwriters, but they're great artists that have great songs? Several, right?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, lots, I would say.

[Rich Paul]

Right. How many had them without a great producer and a great songwriter?

[Max Kellerman]

Exactly.

[Rich Paul]

So Brady and Belichick, let's move on.

[Max Kellerman]

All right. Wait, then there's. You mentioned something else. Oh, I wanted to. It was. I don't need to read. I know it. Do you remember Brooks Mellocure?

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

I remember Sports by Brooks was one of the original, like, sports blogs that blew up. And Brooks was saying something to me yesterday I thought was super interesting. Robert Kraft's going into the hall of Fame, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And Bill Polian was 100% sure he voted for Kraft. 95% sure he voted for Belichick, 95% sure. You don't remember who you voted for for the hall of Fame? However, it doesn't. Brooks analysis is the following. He thinks that there are enough breadcrumbs to suggest that the force pushing against Belichick, obviously, he's gonna get into the hall of Fame. Everyone knows that. But there's a certain honor of getting in on the first ballot. And he was saying the breadcrumbs leave to Kraft because Kraft was unaware of Deflategate or Spygate especially, and was embarrassed by the association and wanted some kind of penalty for Belichick, which is just a delay of his. Or never having the honor of going in on the first ballot. I think that's kind of interesting analysis.

[Rich Paul]

Nothing surprises me today. I've seen so much in sports. I've seen. It don't surprise me. Is it right? No, it's wrong, but nothing surprises me.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, now I've done my rant. I want to talk about.

[Rich Paul]

I don't have a rant.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, you don't have a rant, so.

[Rich Paul]

I don't have a rant to do.

[Max Kellerman]

You don't have a rant. But let me ask.

[Rich Paul]

But I would talk about whatever you want to talk about.

[Max Kellerman]

Let me ask you this.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. Because I'm gonna listen to you for a minute now. Let me think of how to phrase this. Let's talk about the state of the agent business. Okay.

[Rich Paul]

Which agent business? There's like 95 different.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I want to talk about this because linebacker Luke Forelli. Is it Farrelli. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

The kid from Clemson.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Transfers to Clemson.

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

He's enrolled in classes.

[Rich Paul]

We touched on this.

[Max Kellerman]

Ole Miss poaches him. And that leads to what we talked about in the last pod.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Where Dabo Sweeney goes off and had a bar with. It's like having an affair on your honeymoon. Right, Right. So let's. Let's take some time now. I had my time. The floor is.

[Rich Paul]

I won't be as long as you, for sure. We're 45 minutes into the show. Since you said that, you took 40 minutes of it.

[Max Kellerman]

I took five minutes of it. So since. Okay. Since you said that, Rich, how would you fix college sports?

[Rich Paul]

Well, I think the first step is to really gaining the proper perspective on college sports because you have to take the student athlete aspect out of it. It's a professional league now, so the CFL should be the college football league. That probably should come with contracts. If you want to add a little bit of the elements of. I call it football, but most people call it soccer, European football to it, where. Yes. Because it is within the university confinements of a university and kids can transfer, then there should be transfer fees that come with that within the transfer window, because that's the only thing that really screws it up. Right. If I'm paying a kid, if I'm a university, that Goes out and they pay this kid the money and then the very next year the kid transfers. You know, is it fair? Unfair? I don't, you know, I don't get.

[Max Kellerman]

Into it sounds like you're saying it's.

[Rich Paul]

Unfair in business, but there should be some type of, I would say, structure to it. That doesn't necessarily stop the player from benefiting because I am pro benefit for the players. But we gotta add some business elements to it to where it's just not this wild, wild west of people moving around. Because what then that brings forth is the lack thereof, integrity in the space. Right? And the problem from an agent perspective, and I'm not an nil agent, obviously we have nil clients, but from what I see, anybody can be an nil agent. There's no certification for being an nil agent. And so then what brings forth a proper protocol within that or a proper business practice within that? There's a lack thereof, right? And then there's this idea of where you're getting more money and they put everything on the basis of more money. So you're not valuing the relationship. But that's kind of a double edged sword because we've seen the relationship not be valued by coaches as well. So that's a double edged sword.

[Max Kellerman]

That was okay for 100 years, but.

[Rich Paul]

As soon as it flips down. No, that's fair, that's fair. But there has to. Look, I don't have the answers, the right answers. I have suggestions, but I'm also not. This is me playing fantasy. I guess the irony of having a rule, but then I'm playing fantasy. Ncaa, I guess. But I think there will be or there should be some type of structure to it and we have to figure it out because it's just going to be more and more cases of this and it's all over the place. You got one coach talking about how old the players are and then you have another coach saying that, hey, where's the integrity? This guy's here, he's enrolled here, and yet still he's being courted to go somewhere else. I don't know how you fix that, you know, And I think just like we have the committee in determining the playoff committee, you know, you have to have a similar like committee to actually fix it. And look, you know, maybe it never gets fixed. I mean, maybe there's a lot of stories out there, private equity coming into play. Maybe things break off. Maybe you take the top Power 5 conferences and make them one league, who knows? I mean, there's so Many different things you could talk about. But because I don't want to be you and rant for 45 minutes, I'll just stop there.

[Max Kellerman]

Four minutes. Not bad.

[Rich Paul]

Not bad. Yeah, but the. But the agent business of it all is a totally different thing.

[Max Kellerman]

But you said, like, you have certain suggestions. You said you don't have all the answer to certain suggestions.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Do you have specific suggestions?

[Rich Paul]

Well, I mean, from which part? The agent part? Or just.

[Max Kellerman]

No, you said certain rules could be in place to force.

[Rich Paul]

I said that? Yeah. I think there need to be.

[Max Kellerman]

Look, but what could those rules be?

[Rich Paul]

You know, contracts, transfer fees.

[Max Kellerman]

Right, Transfer fees that the student would have to pay on the way out.

[Rich Paul]

No, the other school. If I'm at a school and another school wants me, and this school paid me, but another school wants me, then that school should have to pay this school a transfer fee.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, I see what you're saying.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Because it did seem like Dabo was blaming Golding. The coach at Ole Miss replaced Kiffin. He's just trying to improve his team because he wasn't. But Dabo was not. It seems like he was trying not to go at the kid too much. Not to go at Farrelli too much. He was trying to go at the.

[Rich Paul]

Opposing coach of the opposing school.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

And because they supposed to have some type of honor among. Honor amongst.

[Max Kellerman]

In this case, not thieves, maybe. But, I mean, for decades and decades and decades, the schools were basically thieves. But at this point, there's always been.

[Rich Paul]

A competitive nature there. But, like, I understand what he's saying, and it's hard to go at the kid because, look, the good thing about NIL is you allow kids to make money that we don't know if they're ever gonna make it at the next level. So that is a positive thing about nil. The negative is it's just. It's too many agents with. Too many with too much misleading information. It's a cash grab every which way. And, you know, how do you stop that? I mean, we have too many agents just in basketball. We have. You know, we have.

[Max Kellerman]

They tried to have one less. They tried to go the Rich Paul rule to get you out of representing. I guess. Was it college players?

[Rich Paul]

Well, that was about players testing the water and that. You had to have a higher education to.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, they were clearly targeting you. We talked about it on first take back then.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I know, but. Yeah, but. Yeah, that never made sense to me, but. Because the real issue is, Again, we have 5,000.

[Max Kellerman]

Hold on. You have to take that As a compliment.

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

Because for so long, the schools had it their way with the ncaa. It was ridiculous. If you had cream cheese on a bagel, that was a perk you could get in trouble for. I mean, it was so sweet.

[Rich Paul]

And people just accepted it. And there's people that got in trouble for doing things that was really nothing. But like, now it's.

[Max Kellerman]

Everyone was making money but the players, the schools, me, like the broadcast, whoever was talking about it on tv, the networks, the school, everyone making money hand over fist, except for the actual workers. But you have to take that as a compliment. When they target you, they try to get you out of there. Because the only reason they would want you out of there is if. Since it is a negotiation. Right. So the more you get, the less the school gets, et cetera. That's really them saying, you're too effective as a negotiator. We don't want you in the.

[Rich Paul]

That was before Nil.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

But what that was really about.

[Max Kellerman]

But Nil was. It was coming. It was coming.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what that, for me, what I took from it, what it was really about, it wasn't about me because I was already through. I was already on the other side of the mountain. It was about those coming behind me. Because growing up, you always had this idea that an agent had to be a lawyer. That was everyone's perception, oh, you have to be a lawyer. Well, that was a lie. Right. Because GMs aren't lawyers. They have legal. Right. So that was a lie. But they held that for so long. And then now the flip side of that is, well, not only do they not have to be a lawyer, anybody could be an agent. Then that's the other part of the coin that is a little troubling because we have 5,000 agents. There's only 450 players. Right. So that's a tough part. We don't have a union, so agents are not protected. Right. That's a tough part. At the same time, the agent business has gotten to a place to where. Because I'll do anything to get this client. I'll just saturate what my expertise actually is to be able to get the client. So now you're cutting your fee and cutting your fee and cutting your fee. You get what I'm saying? So now that hurts the business. No one's getting in the room and having these conversations because they so mad at each other about who said this in the room and who said that. Well, they all talk about me. I'm not mad at any of them. I go as far as, if a guy is not going to be with us or is not working out with us, I've seen agents and said, hey, this probably not working out with us. He's probably going to leave.

[Max Kellerman]

Might be a good fit with you.

[Rich Paul]

Might be a good fit with you. Like, that's business. You know, I'm not.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, it's easier to be magnanimous when you're successful.

[Rich Paul]

And then the other. Yeah, that's fair.

[Max Kellerman]

If you're successful, you can do that.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. But then the other part of it is. And now, you know, we had to deal with a lot of things and look, we want to be partnerial, we want to be welcoming to families and things like that. But I always say, like, okay, if you want to be an agent, be an agent. Because you want to build a business and you want to do things the right way and start at a point to where you can actually evolve. Don't wait next to the finish line and be an agent. So like, if, okay, if your son's in the NBA and you want to be his agent, I don't know about that. Because you have to ask him because maybe he just wants you to be the parent. Right, right. And the other thing too is the players are never asked, is this a good idea? Do you want me to do this? Like, we have to start.

[Max Kellerman]

There's just assumptions made.

[Rich Paul]

There's assumptions. And the assumption is anybody can do this job well. Yeah, anybody. That don't happen with the non max guys. It only happens with a guy who's perceivingly to get a max contract. Because no one wants to take the risk.

[Max Kellerman]

If you have LeBron James, every team in the league wants to give him the supermax if they could. Right. They want to give him everything they can.

[Rich Paul]

But let me tell you why.

[Max Kellerman]

Because he's worth more than whatever you could pay.

[Rich Paul]

But let me tell you why this is misleading. See, most people think, oh, LeBron just gave rich the opportunity. And it was so easy for rich to represent LeBron. I did not represent LeBron until his ninth year in the league. The reason being is because. And the only reason why I got that opportunity is because he seen me recruit Johnny Flynn. He's seen me work with OJ Mayo, he's seen me recruit Eric Bledsoe and Tristan Thompson.

[Max Kellerman]

You had to prove yourself.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And I also was able to have real conversations with him and help him understand. He saw me work at the biggest shoe company in the world and add real value in those rooms. He saw Me work with brands like a Coca Cola and a Sprite, which is, you know, within the Coca Cola family, or a McDonald's, or, you know, do deals and things of that nature. So I had. It's not. It's less about a. Is much less about a test to be taken, and it's much more about just the experience. I'm off. Like, I'm never going to be somebody that says, oh, let's stop people from being agents. No. Because I know my position in the business. I know how I affected the business good and bad. Because the bad part of it is everyone thinks it's easy, and it's really not. It's really a very, very, very hard job. It's a hard job just building a book. And there's a difference, Max. Building a book of business is a very hard job. Building a business is an even harder.

[Max Kellerman]

Explain the people. I mean, we have stuff we're going to leave on the table today. We'll get to it. Yeah, we'll get to it on Friday. But explain to people what a book of business is.

[Rich Paul]

Well, a book of business is just like every. Like, you only have to worry about going to get this player. That's your only worry. That's not my only worry during the course of a day, but that's if you're just an agent. I have to worry about just going to get this player and managing that player and servicing that player. But when you're building a business, when you have to grow different verticals within the business, different sport verticals, when you have to grow the business side of that, the commercial business side of it, you have to deal with hr, you have to deal with scaling the business properly. You have to deal with M and A.

[Max Kellerman]

And you can't just do. You don't roll out of bed in doing that. You do that. That's why people start in the mail room in companies. Right? You started and learned every level of the business.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, and I learned in a very untraditional way. I learned from all other areas of the business. Whether I had a deal in the music industry, whether I watched, you know, different people within that industry, in the fashion industry, you know, working in the footwear business, my dad's store, I learned every. Every which way there was to learn. And at the same time, still with all of that, it's not like I had this plethora of examples in front of me that I could really go and intern at. Like, kids can come and intern with us today, but I didn't necessarily have that that I can go and intern at now. I did have a little bit different where I did go and work at a former agency. But even then, it wasn't like that place was saying, let me teach you every element of the business. No, it was saying, you're a cool guy, and you're really cool because you're next to the biggest athlete in the world, and if we keep you happy, we keep him happy. That was the idea.

[Max Kellerman]

So there's an advantage. In other words, you don't deny that there's an advantage to an association with LeBron James. It's just that that's not the whole story.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I think people look at it and say. And I've. Listen, I'm not even trying to prove people wrong. I let people on the Internet say whatever they want to think and say. But I think for the kids that actually want to know or the young people out there that actually want to know about the business and parents and just people in it because we have a great business, I'm blessed for the business, and I welcome all families and. And partnerships and all those things, but it just has to be done the right way. And so when you think about it. And the last thing is. I'll say, the other thing that hurt us was Jerry Maguire. Jerry Maguire. It's a good movie, really, but it was a love story. It's not an agent story.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, it's both, Rich. It's both. It's both.

[Rich Paul]

But what I'm saying is the Jerry Maguire of it hurt us. The most famous scene in Jerry Maguire.

[Max Kellerman]

Hurt the agent, which is the most famous scene.

[Rich Paul]

Show me the money.

[Max Kellerman]

Show me the money. Oh, the most famous line.

[Rich Paul]

Cuba's on the other end. He's saying, say it, Jerry. Say it right. Show me the money. And Jerry's screaming, show me the money. Show me the money. But you know how I look at that? You know what he's saying? Dance. Dance, Jerry, dance. So now you got people thinking, he wants to know.

[Max Kellerman]

He wants to know that. I think the point was that the agent is as invested in the project as he is. He wants to be with his whole heart, you know?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but. But. But that's a theatric. You're not getting that from saying, say it. Show me.

[Max Kellerman]

But he's Will. In other words, he has no shame. He has nothing holding him back. He's. He's gonna jump through the hoop. Yes, he's jumping through a hoop.

[Rich Paul]

That's dancing.

[Max Kellerman]

But. But it is. But it's in a way that's not he wants to know he'll do whatever it takes to get it done.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but you're.

[Max Kellerman]

And the point of Jerry Maguire seems to be that there is a way to do business. I figured you'd like this the right way and to actually care about the clients. Right.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Which.

[Rich Paul]

That's part of it.

[Max Kellerman]

And all the show me the money thing, it really.

[Rich Paul]

He.

[Max Kellerman]

You can't. So how does one say forego in the past tense? Forwent. Can't be forgot. Anyway.

[Rich Paul]

No, he foregoed.

[Max Kellerman]

He foregoed. But he didn't. He was like, okay, I'm not gonna take the easy way.

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

And the kind of soulless way. I'm gonna put my all into it and get it.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, they showed that. But I'm talking about that particular thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Where he's saying, because what happens is oftentimes in sports, people feel as if, again, it's so easy to do your job. Right. It's sports. How hard could it be?

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, my job, Easy.

[Rich Paul]

No, but what I'm saying, it's not coding.

[Max Kellerman]

No, it's not.

[Rich Paul]

It's not real estate.

[Max Kellerman]

People who get so, you know, people who get every reason everyone has a podcast. People who get into the sports talk business, it's because we didn't want to have a job. And everyone. Everyone you see in the sports talk business in front of the camera is getting away with not working. It's a straight hustle, and you definitely want to be in on it if you can be, because it beats working.

[Rich Paul]

For a little bit. But our business is a lot of work.

[Max Kellerman]

Your business is a lot of work.

[Rich Paul]

There's a ton of work.

[Max Kellerman]

100%.

[Rich Paul]

Are you crazy? Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Your business is a lot. Your other business is a lot of work.

[Rich Paul]

The point I was making is this.

[Max Kellerman]

A lot of work.

[Rich Paul]

This is also a lot of work.

[Max Kellerman]

But it doesn't feel like work, does it?

[Rich Paul]

No, because it's. Because also it's things that I'm talking about and I know about and I'm experienced in. And this is my 24th year in the business. Right, Right. And so. But the point I was trying to make is. The point I was trying to make in the. Dan's comment was, yes, you're right about all those things, but you still have to realize the perception of us as representation every step of the way. If you don't have the proper relationship, client relationship, it is based upon how much you can do. Right. And I want you to do more, and I want you to make me feel like you can do more. But that's not really a relationship that you're welcoming. You know, that'd be like you dating a girl, and every time you show up, she wants you to come with an edible arrangement and this many bags and this. And every single time it's like, well, wait a minute. Like, that's not how. How about any single time, too much the relationship goes. So what I'm saying is the point I was trying to make, because people perceive that, oh, all I have to do is dance or scream louder or show that I'll go the extra mile. There's not expertise that comes in. It's exactly what you said. It's a show. So I'm showing you through theatrics that I can do these things. But it's a magic trick, because nothing had. I haven't necessarily built anything. I haven't necessarily had the experience. If you look at. If you go to any job and you look at the resume right, they're looking at your job experience. For me, my job experience was all these things. Plus I was next to the. The. Arguably the best athlete in the world at cc. Came in in addition to that, did these other things. And I always wish I would have.

[Max Kellerman]

Timed this, by the way.

[Rich Paul]

No, that's all.

[Max Kellerman]

I wish I would have timed this.

[Rich Paul]

But this is important. But I always. But you went 45 minutes. But I always say this to young. To young, to young people coming in our business. Don't make it about one transaction. Don't do that. Make it about being able to play every role within the company, because you never know where you gonna settle.

[Max Kellerman]

Relationships are not tit for tat anyway. It's not a relationship should not be even a business relationship should not be purely transactional where you're keeping a running tally. It should be a reciprocal, symbiotic relationship where both parties benefit over the long.

[Rich Paul]

Term and there's an added value. But what I'm saying is when you get into this place of. Because most people want to do what they want to be prioritized. But how does priority. What is prioritizing? Most people would say, well, prioritizing means I'm your only guy, or I don't want to go here because you have too many clients. Okay. But you're not really looking at it holistically, because too many clients at. What is it just.

[Max Kellerman]

I have been with an agent who was great. Who.

[Rich Paul]

How many clients did he have?

[Max Kellerman]

A lot. And famously the chairman who wound up chairman emeritus. I want to say William Morris was asked, like, the first agent when did you know you had a conflict of interest? He said, as soon as I signed my second client. So I realized the best agents do this. They have a lot of pieces on the chessboard, and not every piece, not every move will, in the short term, optimize your position as a client. In fact, sometimes they make a move on the board and you go, man, that move should have been made for me, not that client. I'm better. Like, that would have been a better move for me. However, if the agent is great, but they have to be great.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, your move come back around.

[Max Kellerman]

What they do is a rising tide lifts all boats. So as they're gaining power as an agent and each piece is becoming more valuable, it will come around to you eventually, where the leverage they have through other clients actually helps you in your career, too. It's a complicated game to play, and the agent has to be really good. But the best ones do it like that. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And we have some really good agents in our industry. I'm not the type of person to be like, oh, I'm the best, and everybody else is terrible. I don't do that. It's real. But I can honestly say, and I know the union is trying to figure this out too, there's so many agents. Because you just take this test. There's so many agents. And what happens is when the actual experienced agents get into the living room, for a lot of us, we have to deflect all the things that's been said prior to by. We don't know who's having these conversations. Right. And it could cause a lot of issues. Now, I'm not whining or complaining because I'm good, but I'm just giving you. And I'm giving the listener insight. Right? Because it's just one of those things. But Friday.

[Max Kellerman]

Friday we're gonna get to LeBron Wemby. There's some stuff to talk about, but.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not talking about LeBron. But Friday, what I will talk about is Cleveland. I will talk about, you know, you wanted. You were asking me about the signature shoe business or the shoe business in general, and I will break down for you the shoe business.

[Max Kellerman]

Were you gonna take another 45 minutes doing that?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I might.

[Max Kellerman]

So are you gonna time me for the five minutes and then complain, but then go 45 minutes?

[Rich Paul]

Well, we could do. I just watched this movie the other day, Trading Places. We could just trade places.

[Max Kellerman]

Great movie.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, no problem.

[Max Kellerman]

I believe I could hang out with you fellas for a little while.

[Rich Paul]

When he was putting all this Stuff. He's like, wait a minute. So you said, this is my house. He had the cigars.

[Max Kellerman]

It's all yours.

[Rich Paul]

It was like. It was hilarious. Eddie Adan was hilarious. It was a great, great. And Jamie Lee Curtis was great too. Yeah, I just watched her. I just watched her 60 Minute special.

[Max Kellerman]

I love 60 Minutes. I mean, trading. Eddie Murphy hit you with Trading Places, 48 Hours and Beverly Hills Cop. 1, 2, 3, pieces.

[Rich Paul]

Forget about it.

[Max Kellerman]

Although I don't remember which came first. Maybe 48 hours came before Trading Places. I don't remember.

[Rich Paul]

It don't matter. They're all great. All right, Rich and Coming to America.

[Max Kellerman]

We got. Come on. Coming to America.

[Rich Paul]

I know we'll be here on Best.

[Max Kellerman]

Scene in Coming to America. Oh, no. By the way, what was the Harlem Nights too? Harlem Nights when they're shooting up the place. And who was it? Was it Arsenio who kept just popping one shot after they sprayed the.

[Rich Paul]

No, the best scene in Harlem Nights was you killed my brother Quick.

[Max Kellerman]

Pow. He kept shooting.

[Rich Paul]

It was like, would you put that. Pow.

[Commercial Announcer]

Pow.

[Rich Paul]

That was. That was one of the best scenes. And also the fight, by the way.

[Max Kellerman]

Red Fox and Della Reese at the dice game.

[Rich Paul]

Red Fox, the orange juice. And when her shut off my pinky toe. When her and Quick got into the.

[Max Kellerman]

Eddie Murphy had more movies with classic moments and lines.

[Rich Paul]

But by the way, that lineup in Harlem Nights. Yeah, all of our greats was in that.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, he wanted to really do a movie with Richard. Like Richard Pryor was like the father of what he viewed it comedically as the father.

[Rich Paul]

Della Reese, Redd Fox. I mean, you can't get more comedy in one Eddie Murphy.

[Max Kellerman]

I would say the only other guy I've seen as talented as him overall is Jamie Foxx. Oh, forget about where you said where. Eddie Murphy should have won Academy Award. He had scenes in the clumps like the Nutty professor too.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, my gosh, Rich.

[Max Kellerman]

Where he's playing the father and the mother and they're talking about their problems in the bedroom. Right. And I was thinking that was a more real scene that was more believable and heartfelt. And he's playing both sides. He's playing both than you see in an Academy Award winning. Like he should have been nominated for best actor and best actress.

[Rich Paul]

But he did it also in Coming to America. Yeah, crazy in the barbershop scene. And when we did the LeBron's commercial, we kind of took from that. Right, that's where he played all the little kids.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, of course, of course. And Also did the perfect boxing debate that everyone and every barbershop it was. They got it. Rocky Marciano, it was always Joe Louis or Muhammad Ali. What about Mike Tyson back then Sugar Ray Robinson was best pound for pound. And some white dude in the barbershop would bring up Rocky Marciano and everyone would get mad at him.

[Rich Paul]

That's the scene is sexual chocolate when he was at the fundraiser at the church.

[Max Kellerman]

But by the way, maybe we should do. We could bracket up some stuff for the tournament because the next person I saw as talented as Eddie Murphy, like for the men's tournament or the women's tournament where we could bracket up stuff and have people vote on it. But Jamie Foxx, also like Eddie Murphy is a legitimately. Eddie never got credit for it, but legitimately great actor, by the way.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. There's nothing he cannot do. There's nothing.

[Max Kellerman]

Stand up, whatever you want to do.

[Rich Paul]

Every now and then.

[Max Kellerman]

Are those the two most talented people, like ever? Like Eddie Murphy and Jamie Foxx?

[Rich Paul]

Every now and then I get a call from Jamie and it's non stop laughter for at least 12 minutes on the phone.

[Max Kellerman]

And he's hilarious.

[Rich Paul]

Hilarious, by the way.

[Max Kellerman]

Jamie Foxx, stand up. Underrated.

[Rich Paul]

We also got to talk about our top three running backs. I don't. I'm not letting you.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know if we're going to have time to do it all on Friday.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not letting you off the hook there.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, me off the hook?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you off the hook.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, listen, have a great. Well, Thursday, because we're going to be back on Friday. I thought it was the weekend.

[Rich Paul]

What are you talking about?

[Max Kellerman]

For a second. I got to get up.

[Rich Paul]

Max, you got to get yourself together.

[Max Kellerman]

Like you're all over the place. My schedule is non stop. I mean, coffee, it goes seven days a week.

[Rich Paul]

Whose schedule is it now? You think yours? You think my schedule is.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm saying I'm working on the weekends, like right through the weekends.

[Rich Paul]

You think I don't have a weekend?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, well, that's why we get along.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. One of the reasons I just work. Yeah. All good. Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.

[Rich Paul]

Please subscribe. I gotta go back to that Harlem world, man. I gotta listen to that on my way to the office.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, that's an album I haven't listened to in a long time.

[Rich Paul]

I put you up on it.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. No, you didn't put me up on it. You did not put me.

[Rich Paul]

You didn't listen to it in real time. I just put you up on it just now.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, I'm saying you reminded me of it. Cause you came in listening to it.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, whatever you want.

[Max Kellerman]

Putting someone up on something means they didn't know about it.

[Rich Paul]

What do you want to say? It wasn't even in your. It wasn't even in your archives at all. You wasn't even thinking about it.

[Max Kellerman]

What was the. This is. This is starting to remind me of, like, the end of life. Speaking of Eddie Murphy, it would be like old men bickering about some.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just saying, you know, we'll see you on Friday. Yeah, see you guys on Friday.

[Max Kellerman]

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