Giannis’s Windmill, Holiday Football, and the Spurs’ Dominance Over OKC

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

Episode: Giannis’s Windmill, Holiday Football, and the Spurs’ Dominance Over OKC

Date: December 29, 2025
Podcast Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

Max Kellerman and Rich Paul return post-holidays to dissect the latest in sports and culture, focusing on NFL playoff races, the shifting quarterback hierarchy, NBA regular season storylines, and culture/leadership dynamics in both leagues. The episode blends sharp football talk—especially around playoff contenders and the Giants’ ignominious season—with in-depth NBA conversations on star behavior (Giannis) and team development (OKC and San Antonio).

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Holiday Talk & House Organization (00:33–04:36)

• Rich Paul recounts his meticulous approach to home cleanliness, likening interior design to fashion (“like my eighth job”), and jokes about being OCD.
• Max admires Rich’s discipline:
  • “When you walk in my house, it looks the same way every time.” (Rich, 02:04)
• Light joking about the difference between TV/movie households and real life, and how Rich manages to keep his home clutter-free.

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2. NFL Christmas & Recent Games Breakdown

A. Texans on the Rise (06:56–09:32)

• Max’s Early Super Bowl Prediction:
  • “My way too early Super Bowl pick is the Houston Texans... every 10 or 15 years, you see a front seven like this.”
• Rich echoes praise, describing the defense as fast and overwhelming (“looked like the Texans defense had too many men on the field.” - 08:21).
• Rich shares a personal story from the game, sitting with Will Anderson’s parents, noting the excitement and detailed understanding of football, especially from Will’s mother.

B. QB Leadership and Perceptions (10:07–14:11)

• Max raises how leadership styles are scrutinized, particularly QBs like Herbert, Allen, and Hurts.
• Rich: “You can’t tell somebody how to lead... if you act and it’s not authentic, your troops see that.” (14:02)

C. Jalen Hurts vs. Josh Allen: Winning Ugly (11:19–16:21)

• Detailed comparison between Hurts’ and Allen’s approaches, with Max assessing Hurts:
  • “He’s basically a game manager with wheels. But that’s not an insult...”
• Rich pushes back: “Jalen Hurts, first of all, is a Super Bowl champion MVP... we have to stop trying to determine how we want guys to lead.” (12:23)
• Both hosts agree that authenticity and “winning ugly” are undervalued:
  • “There’s something about having an ugly win.” (Rich, 15:51)

D. Texans, Bills, and AFC Playoff Projections (16:13–19:01)

• Continued support for Texans over the Bills (“The Texans are the matchup problem for everyone.” – Rich, 16:58).
• Max and Rich muse about wearing cowboy hats for every Texans win—Rich playfully insists, “Let’s get you some Luccheses, Max.” (17:27)

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3. Franchise Culture & Fan Agony

A. Browns and Giants Outrage (20:11–40:13)

• The guys debate draft position versus playing to win for teams out of playoff contention:
  • Rich, on Browns: “Any time the Browns beat the Steelers, I'm happy...but also want a worse record because draft position.” (21:00)
  • Max, frustrated with Giants’ Week 17 win, laments lost draft capital and calls for owner John Mara to recuse himself from football operations:
    • “Ever since he really began running the team...they've been a laughingstock, arguably the worst team in football.” (30:36)
• Explores culture clashes between traditional “heritage teams” and modern, ruthless tanking strategies.
• Classic New York sports fan misery:
  • “I want my cake and eat it, too. Why can’t I have it?” (Max, 32:38)
  • “You have to watch what you say on this show...we need a flag, we need a whistle.” (Rich, 33:09)

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4. NBA: Giannis’s Windmill Dunk & Championship Etiquette (41:17–46:07)

A. Giannis’s Windmill & Championship Mindset

• Max references Giannis’ reasoning for the late-game windmill dunk:
  • “He says, we’re not a championship team, so I’m doing something champions don’t do. That’s reversing what most people think...the point is to develop the habits.”
• Rich clarifies:
  • “He’s caught between a rock and a hard place...I think he tries to do things the right way...He’s trying to give off this attitude to spark his teammates.” (45:16)
  • “He’s earned everything he’s gotten in this league...and you’re the Milwaukee Bucks, it’s tough to do.”

B. The Superstar Trade Question (47:24–54:47)

• In-depth riff on superstar agency:
  • Rich: “No player wants to have the blame...I’m making you aware of this and you can give some input, but I have to make my own decision.”
  • Max asks about Giannis’s trade/relocation future; Rich offers cautious realism—Milwaukee wants to keep him, and Giannis’s unique personality means culture matters.
• Debunking the “clutch runs the Lakers” narrative:
  • “If I ran the Lakers, I would have been a part of the deal and got some of that moolah!” (Rich, 49:30)

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5. Team Building: The "Big Two" and Depth Model (54:51–57:35)

• Rich argues against the “Big Three” superstar approach:
  • “I just don’t like it in this NBA...I like a big two and depth.” (54:54)
• Emphasizes importance of culture and development:
  • “Before you can even get into personnel, you have to focus on two things: culture and development. That brings forth consistency.”
  • Warns teams not to get blinded by “names on the back” and to value fit, IQ, and seamless teamwork.

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6. Young Teams, Playoff Matchups, and the Spurs Over OKC (58:43–61:51)

• Discussion on how regular-season matchups might (or might not) translate to playoff success:
  • “San Antonio just matches up so well with OKC.” (Rich, 60:10)
• Max notes the Spurs have beaten OKC three times this year; Rich discusses culture, role acceptance, and high-IQ drafting as keys to San Antonio’s advantage.

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7. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On team leadership:
  • “You can’t tell somebody how to lead...if you act and it’s not authentic, then your troops see that.” —Rich Paul (14:02)
• On Jalen Hurts:
  • “Jalen Hurts, first of all, is a Super Bowl champion MVP...back to your point, we have to stop trying to determine how we want guys to lead.” —Rich Paul (12:23)
• On draft philosophy:
  • “Who cares about style points?...Win the football game, son.” —Rich Paul (24:46)
• On franchise futility:
  • “There are some people who are mush. It’s the opposite of the Midas touch. And Mara is the anti-Midas in terms of the Giants.” —Max Kellerman (36:36)

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Notable Timestamps for Key Segments

• Rich’s OCD & House Management: 00:33–04:36
• Texans as “Super Bowl Dark Horse”: 07:05–09:32
• QBs, Leadership & Authenticity: 10:07–16:21
• NFL Franchise Draft Dilemmas (Browns/Giants): 20:01–40:13
• Giannis, Championship Etiquette, and NBA Culture: 41:17–47:24
• Superstar Trade Dynamics & Big Two vs. Big Three: 47:24–57:35
• Spurs/OKC, Culture, & Playoff Projections: 58:43–61:51

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Tone & Language

• Conversational, candid, occasionally playful.
• Open disagreement, but always respectful and rooted in long-term perspective.
• Sprinkled with humor/self-deprecation, especially around the woes of being a fan.
• Mix of insider perspective (Rich’s experience as an agent) and classic sports radio analysis (Max’s hypotheticals & pathos).

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Closing Note

The episode ends with a teaser for the next show (potential Anthony Davis trade talk) and a tongue-in-cheek debate about sweater gifting for teens.

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Summary prepared for listeners who want sharp, insightful sports conversation with plenty of behind-the-scenes context, locker room psychology, and a dash of sports fan agony.

Transcript

[A]

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[A]

How's your Christmas?

[C]

Good.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Christmas was good, man.

[A]

Had the kids over.

[C]

Kids were over. Yeah. We just watched. Watched games, went to dinner.

[A]

I mean, I saw your house.

[C]

Dinner.

[A]

The way it's set up looks like a movie set for Christmas. It looks like you had a little movie set, movie crew come in.

[C]

You can't say that.

[A]

It looked like. Come on home alone. Very.

[C]

Oh, man.

[A]

It was almost too perfect. It was like, look at this.

[C]

Well, that's. I have. I have ocd. That's how I live.

[A]

Is that you doing that? Come on.

[C]

What do you mean?

[A]

You set it all up like that?

[C]

I mean, I didn't set it all up like that, but I have my hands, pretty much. Yeah. I'm involved. I'm like an interior designer. It's like my eighth job. You think I'm playing. I love to do that.

[A]

I don't know.

[C]

Candles.

[A]

That was actually you. I just figured you had people for that.

[C]

Different types of people.

[A]

You don't have an interior designer come in and set that up at all.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, you work with people, but I still, like. I'm not a type of person to just be like, you just do it. No, I'm not gonna. It's like, I look at interior designing, like, I look at dressing. I've always liked to do that.

[A]

I also noticed you don't have a lot of. No matter how nicely I set up a place, I'll have, like, little magazines or notes around or stuff around, like, too much clutter. And even when it's not me, it's the kids or. And it tries to.

[C]

When you walk in my house, it looks the same way every time you walk.

[A]

Oh, that's like a gift to be able to be that way. What do you do to make for the people out there who need to know how to live at, like, you know. Cause you watch a TV show or a movie, you. And there's never any clutter. Everyone's living very. And then you look at your own house. You're like, come on, what do you do?

[C]

I've just always been interested.

[A]

I just assume you hire people to do that.

[C]

No, I've always been to the details. Now, I do have a great house manager who's like another mom.

[A]

House manager? Why are you playing it off like you've got a house manager?

[C]

No, no. But she's just as OCD as I am. So we're a line. I mean, all the way up to, like, the Twizzlers happen to be fresh in the jar. Like, you can't.

[A]

You ever see Downton Abbey? The show Downton Abbey?

[C]

No, I have not.

[A]

I've watched that now with my daughters, like, a couple times through. Very good show. But, like, they ring a bell. You know, it's in the early 1900s. They ring a bell, and then downstairs, all the servants hear the bell and they. I feel like maybe you have a basement where you pull a thing, you don't hear it, but the servants come.

[C]

Up and do it. Listen. I don't listen. I just. I could never be. I don't like, junk. Me personally, even in my hotel room, I don't like that.

[A]

I unpack it, have it exactly the.

[C]

Way I want it right away, fold my clothes up.

[A]

But how do you stop your kids and your significant other, everyone, from junking it up? Is Adele the same way?

[C]

Now my son's room. Oh, yeah, yeah. Now my son's room. Different story. That's a whole nother world.

[A]

You just closed the door.

[C]

That's another world. But my. My daughters, my sons are different. But again, they only get so much time to be. Cause they know, like, no food in your room. Which is a fight, of course. Yeah. But, you know. Yeah, it's a bad one.

[A]

What about your bedside table? Like.

[C]

Water charger?

[A]

My bedside table looks like I'm an Egyptian pharaoh and I'm going into a sarcophagus or something. I need my water. I need my food. I need the thing. There's 15 things on the side of the.

[C]

You know. No, not mine. Few books.

[A]

Yeah, I got the books.

[C]

Water. Not even really a charger there. Not there.

[A]

I got the charger.

[C]

No, you can't have two. Like, you have to be not so minimal, but, like, clean.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I aspire to this. You ready to do the show?

[C]

Do it.

[A]

Game over is presented by fanduel. Fanduel's got it all. Same game, parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com gameover to get started. 21 and over and present in select states or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut.

[C]

It was a really, really chill Christmas this year.

[A]

I was sick the whole time. Sick the whole time. I'm watching games drifting in and out, you know. I know, but better to be sick when you're off than sick when you're working.

[C]

I agree. I was a little upset we didn't do Friday.

[A]

Yeah, me too.

[C]

Because the Christmas Day games.

[A]

Lot to talk about. Yeah, Christmas Day games were spurs and Thunder especially.

[C]

Great game.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Great game.

[A]

And what came out of that in terms of like the Thunder's position and what the spurs can do and all that?

[C]

I think people get to look, I don't want to ignore any regular season, but I'm also not just going to.

[A]

Get just we have examples of teams dominating other teams in the regular season. Regular season playoffs is different. But. And we talked about before how the NBA had nothing to worry about from the NFL in terms of the quality of the product. They were running out on Christmas, luckily. But I'll tell you what, the NFL kind of made up for it since then. Real quick, last night, the Bears and the Niners, that was a fun game.

[C]

That was a fun game.

[A]

Fun. But these teams do not have the defenses to win the Super Bowl, I don't think. I mean, the Niners, if they, if Warner and Bosa, if they were healthy, yeah, the Niners could win the super bowl this year.

[C]

You can definitely say that defense definitely wins championships in any sport, especially in football. But man, it's something about having that firepower now.

[A]

Okay, so I need to say this because now people are jumping on the bandwagon and I'm mad I didn't come out and say it a couple weeks ago.

[C]

I think I know where you're going.

[A]

Okay, so when a couple weeks ago when Mahomes gets hurt and Josh Allen comes back on the Patriots, maybe it's three weeks ago, Josh Allen comes back on the Patriots and I'm like, okay, KC Era, for the moment anyway, is on pause if it's not over. Josh Allen looks to me like he's on a collision course with Matthew Stafford in the Super Bowl. But the caveat was unless the Texans have something to say about it, I'm ready to come out right now. And my way too early super bowl pick is the Houston Texans every 10 or 15 years, you will see a defense. I will see a defense, a front seven where I'm like, I don't know what they're going to do this year, but I'm always going to remember this group. Like, I bring up Tampa in 02 when they got. Vick had reeled off seven straight wins. Tampa gets them. I'm like, I think Tampa's going to win the Super Bowl. They have a quarterback. C.J. stroud. I know the jury's out. I always believe if that dude's in the game, they have a chance to win. They have a coach and that defense.

[C]

C.J. stroud, right now.

[A]

I like the Texans.

[C]

Listen, I like the Texans, too. I went to the game on Sunday. I was there. I'm telling you.

[A]

Poor Justin Herbert, this guy running for his life.

[C]

Definitely looked at it as if the Texans defense had too many men on the field. Yeah, they're flying. I'm. They're flying everywhere. They're flying everywhere. Demo Ryan, he's.

[A]

He's hyped up 12 men on the field. They should have gotten whistled on every play. It felt like.

[C]

I'm going to tell you the best part about the game. I'm in our suite with Will Anderson's parents, who are the best. Mom knows football. His mom knows football. She can come on the show and talk football 100%. But every defensive play, I think Will had, like, a sack and a half, like, within the first three minutes of the game, whatever it was. Right. But his dad's in the suite, and he's like, don't play with him. Don't play with him. And, you know, Will's flying all over the place.

[A]

He's a beast.

[C]

And it was just a lot of fun being there. And anytime I like to go to Sofi. Cause sofi is like your living room away from your living room in terms.

[A]

Of your box at SoFi. Your suite at SoFi is like a living room away from a box.

[C]

Which I don't mind. Which I don't mind going. But it was just such a fun game. Really good game, by the way.

[A]

Really good. By the way.

[C]

Really good game.

[A]

Justin Herbert. Every time I'm ready to write him off, I look and I go, justin Herbert's a. And I think, like, if he just had this or if he just had that, he. This dude was making plays he should. And receivers were missing balls, and he was making plays he had no business making.

[C]

If Justin Herbert's a football player, and I think that obviously he's a football player, I just think that.

[A]

Yeah, but when you say that about a quarterback, it means something. When you say a quarterback is a football player, it means something.

[C]

Yeah, because. Because I'm tell you something, he took hits in that game.

[A]

He did.

[C]

And bounced right up.

[A]

He did.

[C]

And made a play.

[A]

The knock on him has been, at least in the media, he's not vocal enough. What separates him from dudes like say Josh Allen is. He doesn't have that rah rah thing.

[C]

Here's the thing you can't get into. And I don't believe.

[A]

Cause his deep ball to me is the best in the NFL, but I.

[C]

Don'T believe Josh Allen does. I love Josh Allen, but you can't tell somebody how to lead.

[A]

Neither has Josh Allen been able to rally the troops. Really. I know he's been Superman, but I want to talk about that Bill's Eagles game. Okay. Because so as my late great brother Sam used to say, when Michael Jordan retired the first time, it was like we entered a parallel universe in the NBA. Take Jordan out. Who's the best player in the league? Was it going to be like Karl Malone?

[C]

No, it was a lot of stepping forward.

[A]

Would it be Charles Barkley? It was Hakeem. Hakeem was the dominant player in the league. In the absence of Jordan, they won back to back championship and the rocks. Then Jordan comes back and they reel off another three straight when Mahomes.

[C]

And then after that it was a.

[A]

Dip when Mahomes went down with injury on the same day that Josh Allen comes back on the Patriots.

[C]

It.

[A]

It looks like it's Josh Allen's time. It looks like Josh Allen's the best player in football. Best quarterback in football. The numbers match. The eye test matches. The winning. The Chiefs are gone. Now we're in a parallel universe. Without the Chiefs, what does. Like, here comes Josh Allen and he's got to get it done. In these playoffs, at some point you run well. He doesn't have enough offensive weapons. There's always a reason why, but the question is who. Who was going to ascend? So I bring this up because Jalen Hurts has been criticized a lot this year. I know he's a clutch client, but he's been criticized a lot this year. And oftentimes when he's compared to someone like Josh Allen, people are like, come on, that's a great quarterback. Josh Allen. You don't have to hide him. You don't have to rely on. He'll do everything. But I want to say something about Hertz. Jalen Hurts is Basically, a game manager with wheels. But that's not an insult. A game manager with wheels is a dude who, when he's called upon to make the great throw, he can do it. And otherwise he doesn't mess it up for you.

[C]

Jalen Hurts, first of all, is a Super bowl champion mvp. All I'm saying is, back to your point. We have to stop trying to determine how we want guys to lead. People have an issue because they don't like the way he does something.

[A]

Right?

[C]

The guy.

[A]

Everyone has their own way.

[C]

But saying what?

[A]

Herbert, you're saying hurts, hurts. Yeah, but Herbert hasn't won.

[C]

Yeah, but it's the answer.

[A]

Josh Allen hasn't won in the playoffs.

[C]

I understand what you're saying. Josh Allen got on that podium yesterday and said, I have to make that throw. See, here's the thing that I look at. There's some guys who are who they are, and there's some guys who's acting the part right now. Don't get me wrong. I think there is all entertainment within every sport. But if you just watch and just happens in the NBA, I don't know if it happens as much in the NFL, because I do think these guys are genuine. I think Dak's genuine, I think Josh Allen's genuine. I think Jalen's genuine. A guy like Justin Herbert, Joe Burrow, and it's mainly the quarterback who's getting a lot of the blame and the praise because they play that position. But there's one thing to have leadership, there's another thing to act the part. And if you just watch closely, you see that the authenticity is there in a lot of people. But there's some acting. And don't get me wrong, sometimes you have to act a little bit. But if you act and it's not authentic, then your troops see that.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. There's that and there's also. And this is what I was wondering was happening with Jalen Hurts. If the ballers on the team look at the quarterback and start thinking he's not like us, he's not really on that level, that can be a problem. And I was wondering if that was happening to Hurts this year in Philadelphia. But I'll say this about Hertz versus Allen and Herbert, for example, and especially putting Herbert aside for a second, Josh Allen. Cause he's the anointed one. He's the chosen. He's the one who's supposed to be Patrick Mahomes in Mahomes absence. He was the one that it felt like a lot of people were Rooting for, overtaking Mahomes. Right. But here we are in a game last night where actually Hertz wasn't even good in the second half. The Eagles offense wasn't good in the second half. But Jalen hurts a guy who has been in two Super Bowls and you could argue was the best player in each Super Bowl.

[C]

There's no argument when he.

[A]

When he won and he lost.

[C]

And that's not Mr.

[A]

Bias and is a Super Bowl MVP.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

A guy who game manages until it matters most and then makes the play, was able on a bad day to beat Josh Allen's team, to lead his team past Josh Allen's team. And it makes me wonder. The Eagles have sort of been written off this year, but I have not. I like them and the Rams the most in the nfc. The Bills.

[C]

I'm starting to wonder about the Bills.

[A]

I'm starting to wonder.

[C]

Here's the thing. Like Josh Allen said, he made a. He. He could have made a better throw. I'm not writing Josh Allen off. As far as the Eagles go. And Jalen, there's something about having an ugly win.

[A]

Yeah, they had a lot this year, actually.

[C]

That's fine. That's fine. Because here's the thing. If you ask anybody that has won a championship, especially the focal point, and I want to make sure I say something the found, as long as the foundation is authentic and there's acting within, you have to have that meter right?

[A]

From a leadership perspective, the core is real. And then within that, sometimes you have to play a certain role.

[C]

Yeah, you have to.

[A]

But it's coming from a place of truth.

[C]

You can't go overboard with that. And you can see it, like, every time something happens, you have to pick your spots because then you would kind of get called out on it. But nevertheless, with Josh Allen, I would not be surprised if we're sitting here and the Bills are in the Super Bowl. Now, we did say on our first show, you asked me about the Chiefs, and then we talked about the Texans. I still believe that the Texans are the matchup problem for everyone. For.

[A]

For everyone. That's why I like them in the super bowl this year.

[C]

But especially for the Bills, because when you're talking about what's on the line for Josh versus, you know, getting there, and I also say this.

[A]

Those dudes coming at you are a lot.

[C]

You're picking the Texans, right?

[A]

Yep. Right now. Yep.

[C]

Okay. So every time the Texans win.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

We should come on this show and we have our cowboy hats on because I'm a Texans Fan. I like the Texans, and I own a cowboy hat. And I also own Luc Casey cowboy boots.

[A]

I don't own any.

[C]

You want to get some. Let's get you some lucchesis. I'll wear my coat.

[A]

People associate it with the cowboys, I think.

[C]

No, they won't.

[A]

I don't want anyone to ever think I'm just as big.

[C]

The state of Texas is.

[A]

I know, but the cowboys are the ones like. That's the brand.

[C]

It's his own country.

[A]

I know. It's still. The cowboys are the brand. If you come out in the media with a hat and boots, people think cowboys.

[C]

Okay, where do you think the rodeo is bigger?

[A]

But I'm not saying the reality. I mean, the perception.

[C]

People.

[A]

Perception.

[C]

No, people wear cow. I wore cowboy boots to the millennium in the year 2000. Are you crazy? Gator cowboy boots. Let's get you some. Let's get you some lucchesis, Max.

[A]

All right, we'll talk about it.

[C]

Well, I'm wearing mine.

[A]

Let me consider. I don't want anyone to make a mistake and think I got some cowboys thing.

[C]

You're saying that because, you see, this is the problem. You have to be able to separate church and state. You're saying that because you are a giant fan. No one's going. It's not like you coming in here with a. With a Dak Prescott jersey on.

[A]

Never that. Yeah, right.

[C]

So you can. How about this? I'll call Mitchell and Ness. Yeah, we'll get you. We'll get you lucchese boots, cowboy hat, Lawrence Taylor Mitchell and Ness jersey.

[A]

That's confusing.

[C]

But, yeah, I'm saying if you. Yeah, well, you're not gonna wear a Texans jersey.

[A]

Hell, no.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So what I'm saying is you're not to the Texans.

[A]

Okay. But I still got my LT jersey. You still got your lt. All right. You're making some sense.

[B]

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This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making sense. Something timeless while being a part of legendary nights from Backyard Jams. To sold out arenas. There's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks. Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee. You want to talk about our teams, by the way? Our football teams? Now you talk some NBA.

[C]

I don't really care to talk about our football team.

[A]

Look, you won. You won a game. Both of our teams were in what should have been meaningless games for them. They should have been meaningless games, but.

[C]

There'S never a meaningless game.

[A]

They both won. The Browns won and the Giants won't.

[C]

Be a meaningless game. If you already made the playoffs, you already have your seed position, then it's a meaningless game.

[A]

Maybe. Unless you want to like.

[C]

And still in that.

[A]

Guys in rhythm.

[C]

Yeah, still in that. You look trying to find.

[A]

My point is neither one are in the playoffs and they both won games and there was outrage. I think in both games, I think there's outrage in the Browns game, I think. I think win. And I think there's outrage in the Giants win. You want to start with your team? You want to start with the Browns?

[C]

Yes. Okay, here's the thing. I'll say this. Anytime the Browns beat the Steelers, I'm happy. Although I am a Mike Tomlin fan is my guy. But still, I'm a Browns fan first. But I also want to have a worse record because draft position. Yes, draft position.

[A]

It's not like the NBA where you might have the worst record and not get the number one pick. The worse your record in the NFL, the better your position.

[C]

The draft position is important. The other thing is, if I could have had it my way. No, you know what? I wanted Miles to break the record. Obviously.

[A]

He mentioned. He talked about that after the game.

[C]

Yeah, but you know what? No, forget that. I'm taking the win. Anytime the Browns get a win over the Steelers, I'm taking that.

[A]

Shador gets a win over Aaron Rodgers. But I got to say something about that. We get to the Miles Garrett thing in a second. That was an outrageous non call at the end of the game. Aaron Rodgers. It was Aaron Rodgers throws. That should have been dpi. Obviously defensive pass. It's pass interference. If you tackle a guy, your back is to the quarterback and you tackle a receiver before the ball gets them. That's pass interference.

[C]

Max. Refs miss calls in every game.

[A]

But Rich, you're serious.

[C]

Now that we get a win over the Steelers, you want to talk about it's a passing affair.

[A]

Here's the difference. So Many, I'm sure people come up to you. So many fans. The perception is that the league fixes things so they get certain things they want.

[C]

Oh my God.

[A]

It is hard. Like, let's just look at the outcome of what happened. In plain sight of the whole world, a guy, a defensive back, tackles a receiver with his back to the quarterback on full fourth down. It is highly likely, if that's called correctly, the Steelers win that game. Highly likely. That's in front of. And what is the result? Ultimately the result is that the NFL gets the Steelers and the Ravens, week 18, last game of the season to decide the division.

[C]

Well, that's great. That is fantastic. But two things can be true.

[A]

How do you miss that call?

[C]

That was not a pass interference, number one. And it's great to have the matchup.

[A]

By the way, you're saying it was a pass. You're saying it's not a pass interference.

[C]

Knowing my guy, Mike Tomlin, this is how he wants it. Let's see. And by the way, don't blame pass interference. If you want to blame somebody. If you really want to blame somebody. They was missing a very big piece on their offense.

[A]

No question. Not having Metcalf there. They won't have him next week either because of the two game suspension. That's probably the difference in that game.

[C]

And by the way, when you bring.

[A]

Up like Tomlin, the fact that he never has a losing record, when you talk about like the Eagles win ugly. The Eagles have impressed me with how they've figured out how to win games when they haven't looked good. Tomlin does the exact same thing. The difference this year if they beat the Ravens is he actually has. Yes, he's old as the hills, Aaron Rodgers. But Tomlin has a quarterback this time. He usually doesn't. So if you give Mike Tomlin a quarterback and you put them in the playoffs, you cannot count them out.

[C]

No. Because one, they're going to be prepared.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Two, Aaron Rodgers, as long as he doesn't have to move around too much, he can still deliver that football.

[A]

Yeah, he's like, he's like, he's like he at this point in his career reminds me if you took away the wheels of Jalen Hurts in the sense that Rodgers is a very smart game manager now who two or three times a game is called upon to make absolute like throw a dart and he.

[C]

Does, there'd be no Jalen Hurts disrespect here. Jalen Hurts is more than a game manager. I think that's disrespectful.

[A]

Well, I agree with that, actually. No, no, I agree.

[C]

Jalen Hurts is a premier NFL quarterback and that's not Mr. Bias.

[A]

But he's not the kind of guy who. Who in regular season, you're going to build your offense around to the point where he throws the ball a million times a game.

[C]

Who cares about style points.

[A]

I agree.

[C]

I'm from the old school. Win. Win the football game, son.

[A]

We are on the same page, but you can't deny that that perception is out there about Hurts.

[C]

Every coach I had, and I had some great ones. I'm talking about legendary Muni league, which would be Pop Warner league coaches, Sylvester Sumrall. I can hear him right now. Win the football game, son. Warren Franklin. Win the football games.

[A]

This is what I'm saying to Josh Allen. Win the football games. Like, at a certain point, I'm with you on Hertz. I don't think it's like, for example, Josh Allen's now going to have to go on the road four times to win a Super Bowl.

[C]

Coach Fisher, by the way, Win the football game.

[A]

Eli Manning went on the road twice, four games and won two Super Bowls.

[C]

Coach Hightower, by the way, I had a defensive coach. Coach Hightower.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Win the football game, son. Win the football game. No one's talking about style points. And just listen, just win the football game. Get to the playoffs healthy. Sirianni wants to get to the playoffs, I can guarantee you. And I'm not in their locker room. Get to the playoffs healthy.

[A]

Right.

[C]

They got the same team from last year.

[A]

Yeah. They could easily wind up in the.

[C]

Super bowl for the Steelers. As good as Aaron is, you can't be missing a guy like dk. Max, you need your weapons.

[A]

And MVS wasn't good last night.

[C]

I'm not the type of guy to be like, just keep pouring it. DK's an adult. He's a grown, grown man. He knows what he did. Let's move on.

[A]

But they might not make the playoffs.

[C]

If they don't make the playoffs. He has to own up to that. But they do make the playoffs. Then you should.

[A]

When a receiver. Because receivers had the reputation of being divas and all this stuff and shoots themselves in the foot.

[C]

But here's what I'm saying, Rich.

[A]

It happened with Plexigo Burris. He literally shot himself in the foot and missed the end of the season. And the Giants didn't. Couldn't defend their title. Right. Like, but it's metaphorically. Listen, DK Metcalf just shot himself in the foot.

[C]

But here's the thing. Let's be honest. But if the NFL, like you're proclaiming, wanted to have things set up, then he wouldn't have been suspended for two games, right?

[A]

I'm not. Okay, you're right.

[C]

You can.

[A]

I'm not saying the NFL does. I'm saying the perception of many fans, many fans, is that where they can. They look to have things a certain way. And Rich, all I'm saying is it is hard to argue with a fan who sometimes, in the case of that missed.

[C]

Listen.

[A]

Pass interference call.

[C]

Listen, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. And NFL's lucky in this case. They're lucky.

[A]

Man, that's a bad one. It's a bad one.

[C]

It's afc.

[A]

What do you think about what Garrett said, what Miles Garrett said after the game? They were more concerned about stopping him from getting the sack record than winning the game.

[C]

Look, I wouldn't doubt that that was on the whiteboard. Do not let him break.

[A]

But it seems to me, Rich, that if you want to win the game, that's a pretty good goal to have. Stop. If I'm playing Cleveland with an ancient quarterback, my top priority to beat Cleveland is don't let Miles Garrett get to Aaron Rodgers.

[C]

Well, there's also even more to that. A Browns player breaking the NFL record against the Steelers. There's a lot. There's a lot. There's a lot to that. But, yeah, they go hand in hand. But I don't think Miles was incorrect with what he said.

[A]

Now I want to move on to my Giants. Okay. Can we move on to my Giants?

[C]

Sure.

[A]

They lost the toilet bowl against the Raiders and it was so predictable that they would do this because the Raiders are clearly tanking. And the Giants with Mara never tank. It's against. And I understand where he's coming from with that culture of trying at least to win. But, Rich, this was ridiculous of the Giants to win this game. This is the second time in two years that consecutive years that the Giants win the second to last game of the season to put themselves out of the number one overall draft pick. As I said, this is not the NBA where there's a lottery. You got the worst record, you pick first. The Giants could trade because they have a quarterback and Jackson Dart could trade out of the number one pick. Get all this draft capital they already have. They have a running back who's going to come back, who's excellent. They have a great wide out who's going to come back, who's excellent. Their offensive line is much better. They have a left tackle, they have a ton of defensive guys. They need some help in the secondary. They need help here and there. They could get it all. Instead, they will not have the number one overall pick because they won this Week 17 game just like they just did. And now I'm hearing that they're not sold on Jackson Dart that it's possible they could draft a quarterback. If you wanted to draft the quarterback, take the number one overall pick. What?

[C]

So.

[A]

So anyway, the reason that I'm bringing all this up, Rich, is as a New York sports fan and it's not just a New York sport fan. I don't root for the Jets, I don't root for the Mets. You know, I'm a Yankees Giants and growing up I was a Knicks fan. As a New York sports fan, I look at.

[C]

That's an embarrassment of riches.

[A]

Another embarrassment of riches.

[C]

Yeah, because you have six teams to choose from.

[A]

That's right. But I go for the heritage team.

[C]

Unlike me.

[A]

Yeah. All your teams are the heritage team in Cleveland. In New York you have the heritage team and then a lot of times the clown franchise. And I like the heritage team. Well, usually it's Yankees heritage, Mets. Clowns. I understand Giants heritage. Although they've been clowns. Clowns?

[C]

What do you mean the Mets?

[A]

The jets are a clown franchise. The message is a serious threat.

[C]

I'm not getting into this. Go ahead.

[A]

I like Mara. I think Mara has his heart in the right place and the best interest of the Giants at heart. But Rich, he has to recuse himself from football operations. He has to take a step back. Ever since he really began running the team, they have been except for what he inherited, where they were still good for a minute. But when he really. His decisions affected the team. From then on they've been a laughingstock, arguably the worst team in football. And it doesn't end. And now they're keeping the gm. Bad idea. He's made bad decisions. You're going to keep him to make more bad decisions. They win a week 17 game. Two years they win week 17 games that ruin their draft position. They will get less draft capital to go forward. They're not sure that they want their quarterback to be the quarterback of the future. I like them. Let's keep them. They got rid of their other quarterback, Daniel Jones. He did very well as soon as he left the team. It's time for Mara to look at the one constant again. I'm not anti Mara. I think he loves the Giants and wants to do the right thing. If he does, he has to step back. It's been a disaster. It's been a disaster.

[C]

But let me ask you a question because I think you're being too hard on Mara and the Giants when you are drafting. Right? Yeah. Yes. Jackson dart. He. He looked phenomenal this year. He looked good. He looked pretty good. He looked like someone you could build on. Right. But if I have the opportunity to get another look right at a quarterback, because there is a couple good quarterbacks in this year's draft, you cannot say to a 53 man roster, hey, guys, we're going to go in here and we're going to half ass play football.

[A]

No.

[C]

That's the quickest way for someone to get injured.

[A]

Yep. No, you don't half ass it, but you play certain players. You rest other players. No, you work on certain things.

[C]

But here's the thing. You can't have it both ways.

[A]

I like it both ways. Why not?

[C]

Yeah. Well, wait a minute.

[A]

I would like to have my cake and eat it, too. Why can't I have it? Just buy another cake, Max. Yeah.

[C]

You have to watch what you say on this show because we have people watching the show and this is not our show. Our show is a. Is a different show. Yeah, but there's just some things that you can't get around. Okay, I'll leave it there. Let me listen. Let me keep going. We don't have a flag. We need a whistle. We need something on our show that's for us. I don't want to take.

[A]

If it was Joe and Jay, you throw a flag on that one, I.

[C]

Would have threw every flag I have.

[A]

I get it.

[C]

But here's what I'm saying.

[A]

Shaq would be laughing at that one. I understand.

[C]

Jack would have been laughing.

[A]

I understand what that means.

[C]

Cam and Mace, they would have stopped the whole show.

[A]

That was bad.

[C]

Right? But here's what I'll say.

[A]

But I pivoted to I want my cake and eat it, too.

[C]

Just stop, Max.

[A]

No, that's okay. You want my cake?

[C]

Fine. That's fine. Okay. Let me do this.

[A]

The other thing was maybe. Yeah. You might hear about. You could hear about that one.

[C]

Yeah. Okay. I will hear about it. But nevertheless, it don't matter. We rocking and rolling.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What I would say is I think you're being too harsh on the Giants because as you're going into trying to figure it out going forward. You got neighbors.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Like you said, you have some pretty good pieces on the defense.

[A]

Got a running back. For sure.

[C]

You have a running back. There is some good quarterbacks in this draft. You have the. Here's the thing. You steal what they probably end up falling.

[A]

4, 3, 4, 5, maybe, like, let's see what happens.

[C]

But. But you still have the, the ability sometimes.

[A]

We gave up so much draft capital, Rich. If you trade out of the number one pick and you got a quarterback, Heisman Trophy winning quarterback, people like who's six foot, whatever and the six and has an arm and all that stuff and he wins wherever he goes. You have you quarterback needy teams will give you, not you just to come down a couple slots to come down to the slot where you're likely to pick. Now, you would get another first round pick.

[C]

Yes, you would. No, I listen, you're not wrong about that. But there's also something to be said. Hey, man, sometimes having a number one pick is not the easiest thing because you have to get that right.

[A]

You gotta trade out of that pick. If you're the Giants, Jackson Dart is your guy. Trade out of the pick, you got a lot of holes to fill.

[C]

Yes, you trade out of the pick.

[A]

To where you probably get an extra first round pick. If you go down to, depending on who's there between four and six, you might have a top five pick and have another first round.

[C]

Let me ask you this question. Who do you want the Giants to take? What do you think you need?

[A]

It depends. I think you need help in the secondary. I mean like the Giants need a lot of help. They have good offensive pieces and they have good defensive pieces up front, but they still need a lot of help. They could use help on the line, they could use help in the secondary and they could have gotten everything they needed.

[C]

I understand what you're saying. You're not wrong.

[A]

But more than that, Rich, I just.

[C]

Think it's harder in football.

[A]

It's not just this isolated event. This is just like the latest thing. And I know I kind of. I want my cake and eat it too. You want the kind of culture where you don't tank on purpose. And also I want the drafting. I get all that. You've been in charge, you know.

[C]

Now you are. What, What, a fan? Yes, yes, fans are.

[A]

I'm a Giants fan. Irrational. But Rich, look at Mara's tenure on top of the organization. It has been an unmitigated disaster. And I understand why he would want the position he's in because he loves football. He clearly knows a lot about it. He has passion for the team. He wants them to do it the right way. He comes from a great football family. That's why I don't dislike. I like.

[C]

No.

[A]

But the ultimate thing he can do now, as a Giants fan himself, is to realize he has the. I think you have the Midas touch. I think just about everything you touch winds up very successful. I think there are people like that. You could just look at your life.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

There are some people who are mush. It's the opposite of the Midas touch. And Mara is the anti Midas in terms of the Giants.

[C]

I'm not putting that on Mar.

[A]

He's been awful, but he's the only constant this whole time. He is the constant.

[C]

So are you like saying cuz on Bronx Tale.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The mush, Eddie. Mush.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And they had the. They. They had the horse race.

[A]

Get him out of there.

[C]

And he's like, he bet the horse.

[A]

Everyone rips up their tickets.

[C]

Rip up your tickets. And Kaloda is like, wait. Just like. And he's coming down the steps. He's like, come on, it ain't gonna happen, dude. He just. He's like, yes, he is. I'm not putting that on any one person.

[A]

But he's the only you. At a certain point, you gotta look and say, this is the guy there making the decisions. They cycle through GMs. He doesn't get it right. They cycle through coaches. He doesn't get it right. They ruin their draft position because of his edict that you can't ever try to get a better draft pick.

[C]

45 minutes of the show on your Giants.

[A]

Fine.

[C]

Who do you want them to take?

[A]

I. I dep. It depends who's available.

[C]

That's not what I asked you. Who do you want to take?

[A]

Is there a certain linebacker from. From. There's several Ohio State that you'd like to talk about.

[C]

First of all. First of all, you want to get into my Buckeyes. But. But here's the thing. I'm.

[A]

It never hurts when you take a Buckeye. For sure. When your team drafts. There's certain programs in certain areas.

[C]

Miami. But here's the thing.

[A]

When your team drafts, you're like, all.

[C]

Right, if you want. Depending on what you need. That's why I keep on asking you, do you want another receiver? If you got Carnell, Tate, Neighbors.

[A]

The Giants ideally would pick up. They need more than this from the receiving core. They don't have any receivers. It would ideally pick up.

[C]

What you mean don't have any receiver? They have no league neighbors. Okay.

[A]

So I'm saying. But he's hurt at the moment. He's coming back if you got another like a level receiver, Carnell Tate and the tight end. And you need a corner or two and a safety wouldn't hurt like they. And a linebacker. The Giants need a lot of stuff.

[C]

That's why they need capital.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

If you get this.

[A]

I'm with it. I'm with it.

[C]

You could get. If you have Tate, if you have Arvel Reese, who is. They don't even have a position for him. You can't even say what his position is. You could take a bane on the.

[A]

Other edge, but now we can take fewer of those guys.

[C]

But then you have an embarrassment of riches because you still.

[A]

I would like an embarrassment of riches.

[C]

You still have Thibodeau and by the way, it's Jo.

[A]

And Kayvon's been what he's been.

[C]

Kayvon's rock solid.

[A]

He was supposed to be better than this by now.

[B]

Rich.

[A]

I agree. He's not bad. He's a good player. He was supposed to be better than this.

[C]

But here's what I'm going to say. It's just like this. Do you remember.

[A]

And he turned out better than Evan Neil.

[C]

But, you know, do you remember when they had. When Ohio State had Bosa and Young on the edges?

[A]

Yes, Yes, I do.

[C]

Do you remember the cornerbacks?

[A]

I don't. I. You have to remind me of the year.

[C]

Okay. They looked phenomenal.

[A]

Yeah. Because when that quarterback has no time for phenomenal, corners look pretty good and vice versa.

[C]

Yeah. But when you talk about other, like you're sitting here talking about a team, you still have to let these guys develop. This is why. This is what I'm saying. The Giants have the ability to look at the board holistically and they can say they're the only ones that know the inside.

[A]

Less now than they could have had they lost yesterday, less now. And by the way, they had so much draft capital and. Yeah, okay. I can't take it anymore.

[C]

Listen, they take some Ohio State guys, great. If they take some other guys, great. I think they got. They have. I think they have a good foundation.

[A]

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[A]

One of the best Marvel movies of all time is now streaming on Disney plus.

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Hey, you weren't listening to me.

[A]

I said Thunderbolts, the New Avengers is now streaming on Disney plus.

[C]

Neat.

[A]

The New Avengers. That's cool, man. Marvel Studios Thunderbolts, the New Avengers, rated PG 13. Now streaming on. You guessed it, Disney. I want to ask you about Giannis. Can we talk about NBA a little bit?

[C]

Love Giannis.

[A]

He was quoted as saying something because they got mad because in a win, he does the windmill dunk. And he was saying something about, you know, this made the rounds on social media. Hey, it's not like we're a championship team. I'm trying to. I think I understand what he means. Do you understand what Giannis is talking about? I want to make sure I didn't miss something because it wasn't 100% clear why not being a championship team justifies playing in a way that you don't usually see championship teams playing.

[C]

Okay, so there's an etiquette. Yeah. In every NBA game, or there should be. Of late, it's kind of been a little sporadic. In Giannis's case, he's caught between the Rock and the Hard place because, one, I think he tries to do things the right way in most times. Which show in the locker room, when they talked about him possibly being traded this and that, he said, listen, you guys are being disrespectful. I'm here. I'm in my uniform every day. I think it's disrespectful to the fans, to my teammates and to the coaching staff and to the front office. That's on the.

[A]

Okay, well, that's some really political statement.

[C]

You know, call it whatever you want. It's the right thing to do in that moment.

[A]

Right. For sure. Okay. Yeah.

[C]

Now, when he does the windmill dunk, he's basically like, I don't care what you think or the Bulls think, and I don't care. This is me trying to. We don't have the equity right now to do anything as if we are a championship team if we won a championship last year. And it could be a little confusing.

[A]

That's a little reversed, though, isn't it, Rich?

[C]

Listen, here's some. One is in play.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

One is at the podium. There's also this. He's going to get the benefit of the doubt, I believe, because he didn't grow up in the American culture. And so you can look at it from that perspective. Just like all these things, all these things depend on what lens you looking out of them. Now, I will say this. I don't know. I haven't watched any of the programs. I don't know how much time people are going to spend on that. But the goal posters move for different players. Different players have, you know, they're evaluated differently. And in Giannis's case, I don't think he's going to get much grief about it. I think the Bulls did the right thing and they had the little scuffle or whatnot, but, you know, look, I love Giannis.

[A]

Everyone loves Giannis.

[C]

I don't love it, but I don't hate it.

[A]

He had a Disney movie, like the whole thing, like, everyone loves Giannis. And by the way, it was a little tear jerker. Right. I watched it with my daughters, everyone.

[C]

We had a good time.

[A]

Yeah, it was a nice little movie. Everyone loves Giannis. But when he says we're not a championship team, therefore I'm doing something that champions don't do, that's reversing what most people think of as cause and effect. Or maybe it's just correlation, but it's. Hey, the point is to develop habits that championship teams have.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And when you do something that's like, that's like a little petty at the end of a game, that's not how champion, that's not how you build the culture to. That's so. And he kind of reverses that.

[C]

Yeah. He's talking about attitude. In this case, though, he's. I think he's. I think that's what he. That's what he's. I don't know.

[A]

I haven't meaning attitude. Like, I just don't care about what you think or I think he's from.

[C]

What I got from his quote is that he's trying to give off this attitude to spark his teammates. Not so much as anybody else. I think he was making it about his team.

[A]

Is he gonna get moved, do you think?

[C]

Here's the thing about trades like that. There's a lot of fantasy basketball players out there, and it's good to play fantasy basketball sometimes.

[A]

And you don't mean fantasy basketball with the numbers. You mean just like hot stove, hot.

[C]

Takes, hot, this hot, that. If you in the Milwaukee Bucks position, right. One, you have a guy like Giannis, you drafted him, you developed him, he won there. Ownership has changed, at least half of it.

[A]

Great stories about fans giving him a ride when He's a rookie to the.

[C]

Arena, all of that. I mean, all a of. I remember when he first came in the league, all of that, right. And you talk about drafts.

[A]

He's a champion.

[C]

The Guy was the 15th pick in the draft.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

By the way, he has an infectious personality. He's usually, when he talks, he doesn't.

[C]

Take himself too serious.

[A]

You usually feel like he's in the right when he talks about something.

[C]

Also, he can get away with that, too, because he didn't grow up here. So it's, you know, he's kind of looked at a little bit different. But with that being said, he's earned everything he's gotten in this league. And when you have a guy like that and you're the Milwaukee Bucks, and if I know the Milwaukee Bucks like I think I know them, and I know them very well from ownership down, it's just tough to do. Now there is going to come a time, again, it's all about communication. You sit with a guy like Giannis and you say to Giannis, hey, what do you actually want to do? Most players don't ever want the onus to be on them. Very few guys want that. I don't care what position they're in. I don't care how high on totem pole they are. On the totem pole they are. No player wants to have the blame. Right.

[A]

Take the responsibility of making moves.

[C]

They could be the biggest warrior.

[A]

LeBron is accused of this more than anyone.

[C]

They're just. They just don't. They just don't want that. Right? And LeBron has always played his contracts out, and LeBron was criticized for making a decision that he was allowed to do. I'm a free agent. I can go wherever I want.

[A]

Who in their right mind would have stayed where he was based on the teams they were putting around him, whatever.

[C]

But let's move on from that. So in this case, the way I see it is, no, the Bucks do not want to trade Giannis.

[A]

Do you think they will?

[C]

They would much rather. They would much rather keep rebuilding.

[A]

If you were Giannis's representative, which I'm not, would you want him out of there? Cuz if I was his rep, I would at this point.

[C]

But, see, you say that, but here's what you have to look at, okay? I was drafted here. I got my ownership group, the Haslams and West Edens, pretty deep pockets. They've been willing to pay the tax. We have a new facility, we have a new arena. We have a great fan base. That was Built right. You have to put that on the board. And on top of that, and I do disagree with this. I, I think in the NBA, players are given things in terms of autonomy and some say before they ever earned it. There's very few guys in this league that has earned that.

[A]

He's a champion.

[C]

And if you haven't won a championship, you can't even. You don't get to decide he's a champion.

[A]

He's already done it.

[C]

Right. But he's actually one that's a champion. So am I coming to him, which I asking him for his say no. Am I coming to him saying, hey, we're thinking about doing this? I'm just making you aware of this and you can give some input or insight if you actually know it, but I have to make my own decision. If I'm in that position, I'm making my own decision. And I know a lot of times people thought like, oh, I see people say, oh, you know, they, you know, they don't run the Lakers. We never ran the Lakers. That was never a thing, by the way. If I ran the Lakers, I would have been a part of the deal and got some of that moolah. Right? So I think people just say things just to say it on most platforms.

[A]

No, I understand why people think that, Rich. I understand why. Because if you were the Lakers at the time LeBron got there, it would make a lot of sense. I used to say this on TV when the Lakers would push back. I used to say, guys, if I'm, if I'm running, I say it on the radio in la. If I'm running the Lakers. And I think that clutch can help bring LeBron here. Give them what they want.

[C]

No, but, but see, but it makes.

[A]

Sense from, from a distance.

[C]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, but. But the reality of it is people are more concerned about everything else than, than an actual partnership. And, and, and I, I mean, I have a great relationship. And, and I, and we had a, we had and continue to have a great partnership with the Lakers, but it's not like what you would think, Right.

[A]

You're not calling the shots.

[C]

And by the way, I don't want that responsibility.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Now, for someone in my position, I look at myself as a partner to all teams that I have. You know, it's like playing Monopoly. You land on Boardwalk, you land on Park Place, you want to put a hotel on it.

[A]

Right?

[C]

And so that you look at it from that perspective. So if I'm in that position, and again, I do not represent Giannis. Not looking for that. But you ask me a question, I'm going to answer it. I have to look at all those things. There's also a world where instead of moving right away, you also focus on trying to be a great partner. Now, when you are a great partner, I'm not coming to the team with just my players, and we have a lot of them. No, I'm coming to. And this is how you build that real, authentic relationship and rapport. Right. That's unbiased. If I'm only coming to you with my players. Now, I'm making about a transaction, and that's pretty selfish of me.

[A]

You're also not looking at it, and.

[C]

You'Re not looking at holistic for your.

[A]

Client, because your client's not gonna be in a winning position.

[C]

That's not what that's about. You have to look at it differently. And if you know basketball, which some do, some don't, some look at highlights, some, whatever the case may be, that's their prerogative, you got to look at it and say, how can I help my client and also help the organization? And if you actually have the capabilities of doing that, then yes, I've had conversations with players that I don't represent. I've had conversations with players, agents that I don't represent, and we've worked together. That's there to do.

[A]

What do you mean? Like to help bring them to a certain team that your client's already playing for?

[C]

Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

So you're saying. You're saying you don't know that you would want to move Giannis if you represented him?

[C]

No, I don't know if I. Because, again, where are you going? See, people always think la.

[A]

Like, if I'm the Lakers, I'm looking at the roster, I'm seeing Luka Doncic and nothing else. I think if you start a franchise with Luka, you're in very good shape. Now, how are you going to build around that? Okay, Max, LeBron's old Austin Reeves is a little redundant.

[C]

Here's the thing, Max, you got me in trouble the last time with these type of conversations, because I'm not going to ever get up here and tell a lie. Right. I'm not going to do that.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

There will be times I just decide not to say anything. This won't be one of those times.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Here comes a social media clip.

[C]

When you talk about the education of it all, and I look, I'm gonna be going to games long after my guy retires, and you know, Rich, what.

[A]

Are you doing in the nosebleeds?

[C]

I'm gonna be in the nosebleeds. I'll be where I normally am if I decide. Or I might be there sometimes, but I might like to play. See, I like to play the suite sometimes, especially at the foot at the football game.

[A]

The suite's nice.

[C]

I'd rather play the suite at a basketball game. I prefer feet on wood. But nevertheless, when you talk about where you want to place somebody. And again, we're going into the fantasy basketball of it all, but I think for the viewers, you have to give them some insight. When you're building a team. Right. The one thing you can't do is only focus on names. That's not good. And what I mean by that is. And you can. I remember having this conversation with my guy, David Blitzer, who is part of the Blitzer Harris Group. I mean, you know, Harris Blitzer Group, that own the Sixers. We was having a conversation. We were in Shanghai or Beijing somewhere years ago, and I was talking to Josh and David, and I was telling them, like, I don't like a big three.

[A]

I just don't like it in this NBA. You might.

[C]

In no NBA. I'll tell you why.

[A]

It was pretty good.

[C]

Yeah. But again, I like a big two in depth.

[A]

Yeah. Now, that seems to be preferable.

[C]

Yes. But here's the other thing. Before you can even get into personnel, I think you have to focus on two things, culture and development. Because when you have culture and development, you're able to build consistency within the organization. Right. Now you have those things, culture, development. That brings forth consistency of habits, consistency of character. Right. Now you start to really have this across the group. Now, when you come to evaluating talent, you evaluating talent from a totally different perspective, it's not just about the name on the back. Right.

[A]

So it's how it all functions together. Yeah.

[C]

Yes. And when you're trying to manage a salary cap. Exactly. You know, it's so important to draft not only. Well, from a talent perspective, from a character and IQ perspective. Right. I watch a lot of games, simple stuff like this. If I give you the ball, if we're on a fast break and I give up the ball early, if you touch that ball and take a dribble, that defeats the purpose of me giving you the ball early.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I'm giving it to you early because the defensive guy has to react a certain way, and you give it right back.

[A]

Gotta move it. Yeah.

[C]

You just, you know, but when you watch these games, you see these Things. It's like, oh, that was just so. That's just like a, you know, Coach Thornton, St. Aloysius, we used to do this all the time, but this is the NBA. But, but still, all these players get this, get this criticism. Right. But nevertheless, going back to your point.

[A]

About where this leads to a JJ Reddick conversation real quick.

[C]

But going to your point about where to go. I'm not looking at certain cities or anything like that. That's not what I'm looking at. And obviously if you got those two guys. Yes, but again, you're talking about playing fantasy basketball and when people don't know the rules, people just think anything. People say, oh, well, if LeBron wasn't making 53 million. No, that's not true. That's far from true. Number one, you probably could have been, you know, get a, I don't know, mid level, whatever the case may be. Because it's not like when you can.

[A]

Grandfather in a contract. It's different than acquiring a contract now.

[C]

Letting a contract expire and letting other contracts expire and you have X amount of cap space. That's a timing thing.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

If you have to line it all the way up for that to happen and then that player has to want to be there because they may be. They contract may be longer. They, you know, so it's a. And then you can't give a necessary, like.

[A]

Well, I mean, this can't say what you want to do. It started because the conversation started because you said, where would Giannis go? And the two biggest markets said that the two biggest markets could both use him in New York and la.

[C]

See, but that's again, you focus on big markets.

[A]

I'm not saying that that's where Giannis should go. I'm just saying the fact of the matter is the two biggest markets.

[C]

So here's what happened.

[A]

Could be title contenders.

[C]

When you in. When you in big markets and you focus on names, that's the beginning of the end. Look at the small markets, look at OKC and look at San Antonio. Sure. They don't have that ability to rest on that. So what do they do? They build a culture and develop it.

[A]

Can we switch topics here for a second? Sure. Because you bring up. I want to hit two before we get out of here. Okc, San Antonio. OKC wins a million games. They're on pace to win it earlier this season to win a million games again this year. Oh, my God, who's going to stop them? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Listen, best player on the other team Got hurt in game. In the deciding game last year. It was like tied at halftime. Right. Close game. And OKC goes on to win. Who says they necessarily even win last year without the injury? And then this year they've run into the Spurs.

[C]

The injury was that.

[A]

To Halliburton.

[C]

Oh, oh, I thought you were Aaron Gordon.

[A]

No, no, no, Halliburton. Yeah, because by him. Because Bynum Gordon got injured.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And Aaron Gordon is really the piece on the Nuggets that went from here to here.

[C]

He was having an unbelievable.

[A]

He's had a great effect on that team. Great effect.

[C]

But go ahead.

[A]

So the spurs beat him three times so far this season. Does that. We started early. We talked about does. We were talking earlier today. I remember if it was during the show or not. Does that mean the spurs have OKC's number or that OKC is not so untouchable or does that not translate in the playoffs here?

[C]

No, I mean, listen, anytime you lose to a team three times in a row, and especially in that short span, yeah, there's something there. And I think Shay came out and said it. There's something there. And it's matchups. They just match up. San Antonio just matches up so well with okc.

[A]

And again, they have multiple playmakers. You mentioned it. They have Wemby. Go ahead, answer that.

[C]

Yeah, they have Wemby. They had Fox, Vassell, Cassell, Harper. But then. But again, going to names. Okay. We know who the big name guys are for both of those teams. That's not who's actually putting them over the top. When you ask a guy like Kelton Johnson in the beginning of the year to play a certain role and he buys into that and decides that I'm going to play that role, that's based.

[A]

On culture and drafting high IQ players and developing and developing them.

[C]

And then when you have a guy like Harrison Barnes, Right.

[A]

Who's a true professional, getting the right veteran mix in. Yep.

[C]

This is what I'm saying. So now you can most teams draft a guy. Number two, Dylan Harper. He has to start. He's coming off the bench. This is what I'm saying. So culture development. Same thing with okc. They have an embarrassment of Richards. They got more picks than anybody. They're first round guys. A lot of them were coming off the bench. Right. And so I think it's a matchup we would love to see in the playoffs, obviously. And yes, I think that's something that's building there. But do I think it automatically means that, oh, they just gonna run through okc. No. And I don't think San Antonio believes that is. You know, I don't, I don't get over. Over panicked about the, the, the regular season because there's a lot that comes with it.

[A]

You said it. The NBA, it's getting ready for the playoffs. Playoff.

[C]

Last year, Indiana was not that great. Halberd didn't even make the all star team.

[A]

Yeah, but they, they were, they had an identity all year and they be.

[C]

No, in the beginning it was a little. And then they came on strong at the end and made it to the finals.

[A]

We have two more shows this week. Yeah, Wednesday and Friday. And on Wednesday I'm gonna be wearing.

[C]

Do you know this bear?

[A]

Of course.

[C]

Okay. I just wanted to make sure.

[A]

Yeah. I got my daughter the bear sweater. She didn't want it. She thought it was too fancy.

[C]

The bear?

[A]

Yeah. You know, it's hundreds of dollars for a sweater. You know, she's in high school. She didn't want me to get it. This is for. It was a hanukkah present like 2 years ago. Hard working kid. I wanted to get it for her. She didn't want it. She's like very modest that way. And my daughter surprise her.

[C]

Yeah. In high school too. Yeah, very much so. But no, we have too much.

[A]

But we have too much. So I want to ask you on Wednesday, since you just hit on the Hawks, there's going to be a Giannis sweepstakes. If other teams are going to be interested in Giannis only he's either going to stay where he is or one team will wind up with him. That's not Milwaukee. But that means other teams won't get him. And there's another player and I'm a friend of the guy who represents this other player, Anthony Davis, and I was wondering about your opinion about what the Giannis stuff means for AD But I guess we could talk about that on Wednesday if you're good. It's called the Tease. I'm going to have to ask you about A.D. are you prepared to.

[C]

Well, I love talking about A.D. i'm prepared to talk about Anthony Davis. Who. It's clear any team that you put Anthony Davis on will be better.

[A]

Max Kellerman, Rich Paul. Game over.

[C]

Subscribe Please subscribe. You have to add the. Please, just please subscribe. Why you can't just say please?

[A]

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