Giants Get John Harbaugh and Full NFL Divisional Round Preview

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: Giants Get John Harbaugh and Full NFL Divisional Round Preview
Date: January 16, 2026
Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dig into one of the most significant coaching hires of the NFL offseason—John Harbaugh joining the New York Giants—while offering an in-depth preview of the NFL Divisional Playoff round. They also touch on the dynamics of building a winning culture in both football and basketball, break down player development conundrums like Jonathan Kuminga’s fit with the Warriors, and riff on what separates contenders from pretenders in sports and even life.

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1. Harbaugh Hired by the Giants: Meaning and Impact

[09:49–14:14]

Key Points & Insights

• Max is "thrilled" about the hire and sees Harbaugh as an organizational game-changer.
  • “What it means is that team will compete every week. It will compete. You will be competitive every single week, every single year.” (Max, 10:12)
• The Giants organization has been mired in unsuccessful gambles on young, unproven coaches. Harbaugh signals “culture, respect, and accountability.”
• Rich acknowledges that even if Harbaugh doesn't win a Super Bowl, the Giants' floor is now a perennial playoff threat.
• Max highlights the improved Giants’ O-line and draft capital, and singles out Jackson Dart (QB) as hugely talented:
  • “He has great arm talent, he improvises great… He has everything you want in a quarterback.” (Max, 10:04)
• The cohosts playfully debate Max’s tendency to hype QBs, referencing RG3 as a parallel, and Rich keeps Max accountable.

Notable Quotes

• On John Mara and Giants Ownership:
  • “As much as I criticize when I think it’s deserved, I tip my cap to Mara... they got it right here.” (Max, 14:08)
• On Harbaugh’s Value:
  • “He’s bringing experience, he’s bringing culture, he’s bringing respect from the players... it’s a good day for the Giants.” (Rich, 12:48)

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2. AFC Divisional Playoff Preview

Bills @ Broncos
[14:57–16:54]

Discussion

• Josh Allen carries the most pressure in the playoffs: “He wins the Super Bowl, he’s one of the greatest of all time. He loses... okay, one of these days, you gotta advance.” (Max, 15:14)
• For Broncos, Max names Bo Nix as pivotal, while Rich points to Sean Payton, arguing QB/coach tandem is central.
• Broncos’ defense and home-field advantage acknowledged, but Nix’s poise is the potential swing factor.

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Patriots @ Texans
[17:08–20:25]

Key Insights

• Max believes Texans' generational defense is on the clock (“you get three years with a defense like that before it ages out” – 18:14) so QB performance is under the microscope.
• CJ Stroud freezing up (as versus the Steelers) is a make-or-break indicator; pressure is mounting despite his youth.
• For the Patriots, Rich singles out Stephon Diggs for chain-moving plays against the formidable Texans D.

Notable Quote

• “If you lose this game, you have a problem at quarterback. You’ve wasted an all-time great defense with a quarterback who froze in the playoffs.” (Max, 18:32)

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3. NFC Divisional Playoff Preview

Seahawks @ 49ers & Bears @ Rams
[22:10–25:27]

Takeaways

• Seahawks: Darnold is “boom or bust.” On the Niners, it's Shanahan’s adaptability amid injuries.
• Bears/Rams: Weather is the X-factor—Chicago’s brutal cold could decide outcomes more than players do.
  • “This game Bears and Rams… it should be called ‘fuck around and find out’” (Max, 23:36)
• Chicago’s home-field elements and fourth-quarter heroics are especially dangerous if the Rams “play with their food.”

Notable Quotes

• On Chicago Weather:
  • “I’m not even in this state… I live in LA. You think I’m gonna play in that?” (Rich, 23:23)

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4. Building Winners: Athleticism vs IQ; Youth vs. Experience

[29:28–33:36]

College Football Reflection

• Indiana’s dominance is attributed to roster experience, not just age but “character, habits, willingness, and coachability” cultivated by coach Signetti (Rich, 31:22).
• The lesson: Football and basketball dynasties require both mature talent and high character—a theme revisited in the NBA segment.

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5. (Bonus) NBA Deep Dive: Jonathan Kuminga’s Situation

[35:08–52:09]

Key Discussion Points

• Max asks Podcast Paul (i.e., “not Agent Rich Paul” for legal reasons) for insights into Jonathan Kuminga’s playing time controversy.
• Rich explains team fit, player style vs. system, and the difficulty of switching roles when competing for minutes with stars:
  • “When you’re on a specific team now, you have to kind of dive into that team’s style of play and how it fits.” (Rich, 36:34)
• Debates development paths between Kuminga, Draymond Green, and OG Anunoby—athletic players can lean too much on gifts; IQ, floor game, and willingness to adapt are critical.

Notable Quotes

• “The hardest part about our league… every guy in the NBA was once the best player on their high school team… Once you get to the NBA, you become one of 450.” (Rich, 42:46)
• On excuses vs. growth: “At a certain point, the explanations become excuses. If he’s on a team where he needs to do certain things differently in order to get playing time, that’s what he’s got to do—unless he’s incapable of doing it.” (Max, 51:22)

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6. The “Best Player” Debate: Can a Two-Way Wing Still Be NBA’s Top Dog?

[53:39–66:33]

Main Themes

• Max wonders if the NBA is moving away from the era of the American two-way wing (Jordan, Kobe, LeBron) as #1 player—a role now often filled by international bigs/sharps like Jokic, Giannis, Wemby, Luka.
• Ant Edwards is discussed as a possible heir, but the cohosts agree supporting cast, coaching, and buy-in from talented role-players are absolutely needed.
• Rich argues team context and culture are critical: “I think we put too much on the individual player because they can only bring to the table what they bring.” (Rich, 57:09)
• The Aaron Gordon example: Former stars becoming champions by adapting—“It's more important for me to be a champion than for me to hog the ball.” (Max, 65:11)

Notable Quotes

• “If you get those (Jordan/Pippen-type) wings, I don’t—those are like, you can’t find those wings. Extra crispy, hot sauce, everything.” (Rich, 54:47)
• “There can be an American player that’s a two-way player that could be the best champ… But it takes a lot.” (Rich, 65:33)

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7. Team-Building in Sports & Life: Dodgers, Yankees, Moneyball, and "Buy Nice or Buy Twice"

[68:46–78:57]

Takeaways

• Dodgers’ win-at-all-costs approach with blue-chip signings is lauded; Rich and Max argue this is not “ruining baseball” but setting a blueprint.
  • Lesson: Don’t penny-pinch where it matters—"If you can afford it, buy at the highest level... otherwise, you’ll spend three times as much replacing it.” (Rich, 75:00)
• Comparison to Yankees’ recent habit of bargain hunting and settling.
• The Moneyball parallel: “The richest owner in baseball just hired the smartest GM in the game… they’re playing moneyball with money.” (Max, 78:00)

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8. Closing Segments: Hate Mail, "Happy Place," and NFL Picks

[79:05–85:30]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• The cohosts read and riff on lukewarm “hate mail.”
  • “Rich Paul is a hilariously bad podcaster… and then he mentions that he listens back to every episode. Unreal.” (Max, 80:05)
  • "Used to respect Max Kellerman before this ish… has to be the worst podcast… in history." (Rich, 81:18)
• Rich counsels youth coaches to teach IQ to athletic kids:
  • “If they’re super athletic… start teaching the IQ part of the game, because athletic is like being very pretty. And pretty is what pretty does.” (Rich, 80:35)
• They lightly debate who they are (“I’m not an agent on this hour… just a front-facing media executive”), describe their show as their "happy place," and banter about work-life balance.
• Final Divisional Round picks:
  • Rich: Bears, Seahawks, Texans, Bills
  • Max: Rams, Seahawks, Texans, Bills (only disagrees on Bears/Rams)

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Most Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “What it means is that team will compete every week. It will compete. You will be competitive.” — Max, [10:12]
• “He’s bringing experience, he’s bringing culture, he’s bringing respect from the players... it’s a good day for the Giants.” — Rich, [12:48]
• “If you lose this game, you have a problem at quarterback. You’ve wasted an all-time great defense with a quarterback who froze in the playoffs.” — Max, [18:32]
• “At a certain point, the explanations become excuses. If he’s on a team where he needs to do certain things differently in order to get playing time, that’s what he’s got to do—unless he’s incapable of doing it.” — Max, [51:22]
• “There can be an American player that’s a two-way player that could be the best champ, that could be the best player on a championship team, considered the best player in the league. Yes. But you ask me what does it take for them to get there and I’m telling you, it takes a lot.” — Rich, [65:33]

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Recommended Listening Timestamps

• Harbaugh/Giants Analysis: [09:49–14:14]
• AFC Playoff Breakdown: [14:57–20:25]
• Kuminga/Player Development in NBA: [35:08–52:09]
• Two-Way Wing Debate (Ant Edwards, etc.): [53:39–66:33]
• Team-Building & Moneyball/“Buy Nice or Buy Twice”: [68:46–78:57]
• Hate Mail and Closing Picks: [79:05–85:30]

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Tone and Chemistry

Both hosts blend sports-insider savvy with barbershop banter, ribbing each other about past takes, career paths, and the “happy place” this podcast represents for them. There’s authentic mutual respect and a willingness to challenge ideas—especially when Rich calls out Max’s wild sports predictions, and Max pushes Rich to clarify life-lessons learned from sports for both pros and regular listeners.

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Summary prepared for fans and newcomers alike—perfect if you missed the episode and want all the insights, key discussions, and memorable lines in one place.

Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Peloton Break through the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus. Powered by Peloton iq. With real time guidance and endless ways to move, you can personalize your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your goals in less time. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go explore the new peloton cross training Tread [e-mail]. Max.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I knew you was coming back Ralph. Again today. You can't help yourself. That is a double R.L. ralph.

[B]

You know, I know it's not all Ralph though. Just this.

[A]

It's not all Ralph. But you know why I know? Because I know the stitching, you know the stitching in the pockets.

[B]

You really are a lowlife.

[A]

Very much so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Very much so. So I just switched up on you. I come Jim Kelly on you today. I see that 94 Super Bowl.

[B]

See, that's why it's so when if. Just imagine how we think of Jim Kelly if he just gets one. I know if nor would he get the field goal if he gets one.

[A]

But he may not have won the super bowl, but he's still a champion because what he did in his life battle.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah. And he was an all time great quarterback. I'm just saying like he trumps the super bowl, no question. But went like you think about. That's why I get into these NFL playoffs. The way we perceive of one of these guys is going to completely change 100%.

[A]

But he did all he could. But before we start the show. Yeah. I brought you breakfast today. I'm treating you to breakfast.

[B]

Breakfast?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Look at this.

[A]

Treating you to breakfast. Now this is a special breakfast, by the way, because this is the hottest place in la.

[B]

Oh, this is what this is. This is what all these guys were doing here this morning.

[A]

No, this is the hottest place in la, baby. Listen, I've been so. Just so you know. You've been.

[B]

I've been. I've been with you a couple times.

[A]

You've been to lunch? Yeah, I had the breakfast. Now I only get. What is that? What is rich bowl? Oh, no, you didn't have to bring it.

[B]

They put it in the can.

[A]

Don't worry about that.

[B]

By the way. I've had this. I've had this. I get at Leora.

[A]

Yes, you have. I get one pancake and one piece of turkey bacon.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That I got to eat light. But nevertheless. You brought us some juices too. Okay.

[B]

Look at this.

[A]

It's great. Now we're not going. This is the one thing Chef does.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He gives you too much.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Knowing that you're not going to eat it all. So.

[B]

Well, you. You ran into the wrong guy, if that was the problem. Come on. You know I'm on a diet, Rich.

[A]

He gives you too much. Knowing we're not going to eat all this food. We're not going to eat all this food, though. But that's okay, Chef. We really appreciate you. Thanks for keeping us healthy.

[B]

Yeah, great. Healthy food is great.

[A]

That's why I stay on it.

[B]

Oh, yeah. He's. Every time. If we. If we meet to go to the game or meet to go somewhere, we should meet here.

[A]

There. We're meeting at Leora.

[B]

Yeah, we meet at Leora all the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Mainly because. So people know. Mainly because when you walk into Leora, up on the menu is there. You see Rich, Paul, that's the main reason. He takes people there. And then he acts surprised, like, no, no, no. Yeah. Oh, you didn't know. Yeah. I have a.

[A]

We did that for. We did that for an actual reason. What's that for? A good cause. That was during the fires. That. This. But you're gonna have people thinking that.

[B]

We got plenty of rain this year. I noticed. But it's still up on the menu.

[A]

I try to do something nice for you.

[B]

Yes, you did. That's true.

[A]

And you can't even accept something nice.

[B]

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

[A]

Jesus.

[B]

That's right. You know why? That. You ever hear that expression, don't look a gift horse in the mouth?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. You know what that's about? They tell the age of the horse by the teeth. So they're saying if someone gives you a gift horse, don't look it in the mouth. Oh, but it's an old horse or something like that. You see what I mean? Yeah.

[A]

You learn something new every day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you know what else I learned? This is my happy place.

[B]

This.

[A]

This show.

[B]

No doubt.

[A]

This is my happy place. No doubt. I'm so excited to do the show every. To start my morning. It's weird.

[B]

You having a hard time sleeping before the show?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, it's funny because I am. I gotta be honest. I'm very excited to do the show. And the night before, I'm thinking about what we're gonna be talking about, and I have a hard time sleeping.

[A]

And, you know, it's like, I do a number of things during the day, and it's always for others.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which is. I'm in the service business, that's my business. But this is my happy place.

[B]

You think that's what.

[A]

And I'm happy.

[B]

Do you think that's what this is about?

[A]

What?

[B]

You've repped people for so long that you're always selling them and you have things to say and you, you know, but it's. For once, it can be for you.

[A]

Yeah, but I think not even. I think the hang. We talk sports, just busting it up, you know, having a conversation, might as well get paid for it.

[B]

We're gonna do it anyway. You and I are gonna do this anyway.

[A]

And also I think being able to give insight. Cause I. I like to give that. And people that know me and know us, we talk about things all the time. And so to have a platform to do it, I think it's great. So, yeah, I'm excited. So I'm ready to start the show every day.

[B]

A lot to talk about today, too.

[A]

Yes. Game over.

[B]

Max Kellerman, Rich Paul.

[A]

Please subscribe. I'm still saying please. I'm saying please probably for a whole year.

[B]

A whole year.

[A]

At least. I'm saying our season, the seasonal year.

[B]

Why should you ask please? Shouldn't they be thanking us?

[A]

Now wait a minute, Max.

[B]

Because you can download a podcast, play it in your car. Now think about this for a sec, Rich. You're driving home from work, right? Cause they're gonna download it for the commute back from work.

[A]

You.

[B]

That's the worst part of your day. Oh, my God. I gotta sit in traffic. I'm exhausted. Right, but hold on a second. You hang out with your boys and all of a sudden the worst part of your day is the best part of your day? Boss isn't yelling at you. You're not dealing with any problems you have at home. Or the wife told you to do X, Y and Z and you didn't do it. Or the kids have to. You know, none of that. It's just me time. It's you time. Right? You just you by yourself, listening to your boys. So why are you asking them, please? What they should do is thank us. You can move farther away from work. You don't even have to make your commute longer. You get more time in the car with your boys.

[A]

That's fair. Yeah, I like that. But we got to give something to the women, too.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Can't just be an all male driven show.

[B]

Yeah, but a lot of the industry is consumed by men.

[A]

Yeah, but the women pay for the. They control the checkbook.

[B]

Yeah, and by the way, they're actually.

[A]

Paying for the subscription.

[B]

And there are a lot of female sports fans, by the way, which the sports world is finding out.

[A]

Especially football fans. Yeah, More women watch football than anything.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So women's sports generally, I think when the men's game in college basketball went well down, the women's game exploded. Right. Like women's college basketball, I think blew everything up for. In a way that. And now it's led to the wnba because the WNBA is now getting ready made stars the way the NBA used.

[A]

To get them to close this. The women's game always been there. When I was young, I used to watch Neshima Hillman, Samika Randall, Christie Falcone from Magnifica. These were games that were sold out.

[B]

But the men's college game was producing so many household names before they even got to the NBA that it was crowding everything out.

[A]

And I played.

[B]

When that went away, it gave an opportunity for the women.

[A]

Let me tell you something. I played with a girl named Barbara Turner. Barbara Turner in Cleveland, eighth grade at Thomas Jefferson. We had a little roll away. Our gym was so bad it didn't even have wood. I don't even know what this was. This was like plywood. But it was some pieces missing, some not. So they put a rollaway outside the back door where the food trucks dock.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To bring in the food. And we would play two on two on the rollaway. You know who I'm picking first?

[B]

She's giving you work, huh?

[A]

No, no, no. I'm picking Barbara on my team. And I'm betting. And we're winning hundred percent. Barbara. Barbara Turner, the Terminator. She was unbelievable.

[B]

I think also for years there was no money at the next level. So there was much less incentive for athletic girls to pursue that as a career. And now the women's college game explosion in the popularity of wnba. And now you're going to see more of that, by the way. Same thing in financial incentives, same thing in sports. You know why there are no American heavyweight champions anymore? Because in the 1970s, if you have.

[A]

To get to the show man. The man told us five minutes. You're going on for 15 minutes. He said specifically.

[B]

I'm trying to talk specifically.

[A]

Five minutes. I think you have a clock problem. I think you have an understanding time issue. Five minutes.

[B]

I'm going to time the next story.

[A]

Jesse, five minutes. He said, right.

[B]

Okay. You ready to start the show?

[A]

Let's start the show. Thank you.

[B]

Game over is presented by fanduel. Fanduel's got it all same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on the NFL playoffs all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com gameover to get started. 21 and over in present in select states or 18 and over in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnecticut. It is a happy day.

[A]

Why is it so happy?

[B]

John Harbaugh is gonna be the coach.

[A]

I forgot about this.

[B]

New York Football Giants.

[A]

I'm gonna give you your time.

[B]

Listen, what's so good about this? And remember, even when I've been critical of Marra, I, I expressed. I like John Mara. I believe he tries to do the right thing, but it's been a disaster so far. And I, and, and I think the real disaster is because they want, they wanted to find the next young, great coach and they were unable to do it right. So a guy like John Harbaugh, what that means for your organization, whether or not he eventually wins a Super bowl with your organization. What it means is that team will compete every week. It will compete. You will be competitive every single week, every single year. The fact that he chooses the Giants next, the Giants O line was pretty good this year. First time in, I don't know, 10, 15 years that they didn't suck. They were actually pretty good and they have draft capital. The defensive line is excellent. The quarterback, Jackson Dart, whoever you think your quarterback is, he's so good, the chances are Jackson Dart is better than the quarterback you have. He's more talented, he's tough, he's smart, he diagnoses, plays well. He has great arm talent, he improvises great. He has wheels. I mean, he has everything you want in a quarterback.

[A]

How do you know all this after one year?

[B]

Oh, you. It's obvious, really. Jackson Dart's got it.

[A]

So why wasn't that obvious for I would say RG3. You didn't talk about RG3 like this. What?

[B]

I certainly did his rookie year.

[A]

Okay, well, we're gonna, we're gonna play the tape.

[B]

RG no question. RG 3.

[A]

I'm just making, I'm just holding you accountable.

[B]

I've talked to RG3 through the years, several times about, like, how did you let these guys. Like, he actually was so gung ho that in A playoff game where he's the future of your franchise. The coach let RG3 talk himself back into the game, and it basically ended his career.

[A]

You see how that feels, Max?

[B]

What's that?

[A]

The way you do me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In terms of getting me all riled up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just did the same thing.

[B]

I push my buttons. I'm like a fish on a hook.

[A]

I got you.

[B]

All right. Anyway, you got me off track. Look, Jackson Dart is like that, 100% like that. The real issue with him is, is he too tough for his own good? And he's going to be outside the pocket taking hits, not slides.

[A]

He definitely has to play a different style.

[B]

Malik Neighbors is an absolutely elite wide out.

[A]

Yes, he is.

[B]

Scatter Boo is excellent. You got a running game.

[A]

Yes, he is.

[B]

If you got the line of scrimmage, the quarterback, the. The. The elite wideout and a running back. And now you're talking about draft capital. And you bring in a coach like Harbaugh. This is a happy day in New York Giants history. I'm obviously very excited about that.

[A]

Yeah, it's a good day. Harbaugh's a good coach. He's had how many championships? Just one, right?

[B]

One Super Bowl.

[A]

And I know people say he couldn't get over the hump, but the reality of it is championships are so hard to win. But what he is bringing, he's bringing experience, he's bringing culture, he's bringing respect from the players. He's going to have some accountability in that locker room. It's a good day for the Giants.

[B]

Even if Harbaugh. Let's just say Harbaugh never wins the super bowl with the Giants.

[A]

Senator, you owe my client an apology. You owe Mr. Kefauver Commission an apology. Apologize, Max. To who?

[B]

To who?

[A]

You criticized Mara.

[B]

Yes, well, I think my criticism was legitimate, but I will say this.

[A]

So what about now? He has Harbaugh.

[B]

I give credit where credit's due.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Part of the reason Harbaugh, like. Why do the Giants want Harbaugh? Because. Because even if he never wins the super bowl, he will. He's the type of coach to get your team to the place where they can win a Super Bowl. At least that's the floor for him. Very high floor for Harbaugh.

[A]

All I'm here to do, keep me honest. Keep you honest? That's it.

[B]

So why does Harbaugh choose the Giants, not the quarterback? And the. And the line of scrimmage now and all this stuff, the ownership group, like the fact that I gotta Give credit to Mara. People speak well of their experience with the Giants ownership.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so as much as I criticize when I think it's deserved, I tip my cap to Mara, and I'm appreciative that they've got it right here. They got it right here.

[A]

Great.

[B]

All right.

[A]

That's.

[B]

I had to get that off. Muee. You're. Brown's still looking for a coach.

[A]

Yes, we are, but it's all good. I'm. I'm positive about things. Yeah. I'm very positive.

[B]

Well, the Ravens ain't gonna be as good without Harbaugh, So there's what the Steelers like. The Ravens lose Harbaugh. The Steelers lose Tomlin.

[A]

Tomlin. I know. I feel like everyone's looking for a coach. It's fine.

[B]

It's also careful what you wish for. Like, you want to get to a better level. So you're like, we can do better than Harbaugh and Tomlin. Now the division's wide open.

[A]

There's still some good coaches out there. There's so many good coaches out there.

[B]

Yeah. A ton of good coaches. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, you want to talk. Let's do a little NFL.

[A]

Hey, let's roll. Whatever you want.

[B]

Who is. So let's talk about the AFC playoff games, because that's happening tomorrow. That's happening on Saturday. The Bills are at the Broncos. Right. And Broncos are favored by a point and a half. I see. I see the. Jim Kelly.

[A]

I feel good in this, by the way.

[B]

You and I were talking about how Allen. Josh Allen has the most pressure of anyone in the playoffs. Right. He wins the Super Bowl. He's one of the greatest of all time. He loses. It's like, okay, one of these days, you gotta advance in the playoffs a little bit. But is that like that for the. For the Bills? It's pretty clear who the most important player is. What about for the Broncos, most important player for the Broncos?

[A]

Player or person.

[B]

Person involved in the game?

[A]

I think the most important person involved in the game for the Bills, obviously. Josh Allen. Mm. Yeah. Josh Allen for the Broncos. I would probably say Sean Payton.

[B]

That's a good. I mean, yes, Sean Payton is the. Is like the main character, but I think you could make a real argument for Bo Nix. I mean, you're going coach or quarterback.

[A]

Yes, of course. But I think. And they might be one and the same because you. That's that tandem. Right. But obviously, Bo Nix has to play well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or good enough. I think their defense is strong enough, too.

[B]

And they're at Home. They're at home and they've been really good all year. They've won a lot of close games. The Broncos gave me the sense early in the season that the other team just thought they were in the game, but actually the Broncos were the better team. You know, like they won close, but they demonstrated superiority by the end of the game.

[A]

And I imagine Bo plays a pretty good game being at home.

[B]

But that's the thing. That's why I say it's Bo Nix. Because if he has a bad game, you're looking at the Broncos like they got the coach, they got the defense. A one man band came to your place and knocked you out of the playoffs.

[A]

Yeah, I mean that's. I don't think it's like a standard answer can go either way, but I think they, I do think they're one and the same because. Sean McDermott, Josh Allen, Bo Nix, same.

[B]

Question for Patriots and Texans. Right. Who's the most important person involved in the game for both teams?

[A]

I would say for the Texans it's going to be. For me it's just that defense again, that defense.

[B]

See, I think for the Texans.

[A]

I know who you're going to say already. That's why I didn't say it. You're going to say Stroud, by the.

[B]

Way, let me just pat myself on the back. How long ago did I tell everyone now on this show about the.

[A]

That Week one.

[B]

Yeah, right. Like the Chargers have a good defense. This has a. But I was like, no but the Texans defense is different every 10 years or so. I'll keep saying it. Week one, you see a defense. Cause we were at the game. Week one, they lose to the Rams, but it's like, oh my God. That by the. By the time they beat the Bills later in the season, I was convinced this is a once in a generation type defense. And the reason to me it's CJ Stroud is when you have a defense like that, the shelf life is really only people say three to five years. You got three years with a defense like that before it ages out. Right. And they're no longer this good. You cannot mess around with a quarterback who can't get it done. And they won against Pittsburgh in spite of C.J. stroud, and I'm a C.J. stroud fan. But if you lose this game, you have a problem at quarterback. You've wasted an all time great defense with a quarterback who froze in the.

[A]

Playoffs because he's capable. I'm not quite ready to say that. But to answer your other Question for the Patriots. I'm going to go with Stephon Diggs.

[B]

Diggs, why?

[A]

I think because against that defense, I think Diggs is going to have to really come up with some monstrous, not long, like, important plays, moving the chain type catches against that defense. I think obviously you can say Drake May. He's the quarterback. But that's the obvious one. That's the obvious one. I'll take the obvious, but I'm going to say Diggs just with his experience, what he's known for, and they're going to have to move the chains against that defense.

[B]

Here's the thing about the quarterbacks. While I'll say it is the quarterbacks.

[A]

Yeah, it's always the quarterback, though, if.

[B]

You swap them out. If Drake May was on the Texans right now, then people would be picking them to win the super bowl from weeks ago when I picked them to win the Super Bowl. Right. Because they would. You get a sense that they're in good hands at quarterback. They have everything else. We asked the question last week, or maybe at some point this week, who has the most pressure on them in these playoffs, and we both agree it's Josh Allen.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I think C.J. stroud comes in second there, but C.J.

[A]

I don't think he has. In theory, yeah. We don't look at CJ to have as much to lose as Josh quite yet.

[B]

Yeah, that's why it's Josh 1. Because Josh is the biggest. Most to gain, most to lose. But CJ Stroud has a tremendous amount of gain.

[A]

But I. Because there's a different expectation. You're going to waste different expectations.

[B]

If you're the Texans and you see him freeze in these playoffs because he froze in Pittsburgh, he looked bad. If he has another bad game, then you have to start thinking about the quarterback position because the clock is ticking on the defense.

[A]

I hate a man. Are you crazy? They're not thinking, where are you going to find another C.J. stroud?

[B]

Well, I mean, if he can't win in the playoffs, you can find him anywhere. I don't take any pleasure in saying it, but it's true.

[A]

You're going to find another C.J. stroud anywhere.

[B]

I love C.J. stroud. He cannot play like he played against the Steelers. He will be. Here's why. Here's why. It's clear. This is the downside, though.

[A]

It's clear to me. Your mind is gone. Why? Because you say some of the wildest things.

[B]

What I believe.

[A]

I never thought my hypothetical would do. The numbers. It did.

[B]

What you Said, oh, the Lakers trade stuff.

[A]

What you say, you said a number of things about Doncic. I mean, you just. Back in history. Everything you say, I've studied your takes. Everything you say is just.

[B]

It's just logical. All I was saying about Doncic, as quickly as it was.

[A]

Not even that. No, I don't want to go there. Way back, back in 2015, 2014. There's this thing now with 2016, which we're going to do for our social. But I went back to years. You say, if it's not boxing, you're all over the place.

[B]

I say some wild shit in boxing, too. I told people after I saw Terence Crawford win his first fight on HBO that I suspect he's the best lightweight in the world. And everyone was saying, oh, and it turns out he's one of the greatest fighters of all time.

[A]

But I know what you do that for.

[B]

What's that?

[A]

I think you just say things knowing that if it does happen, you look like a genius.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If it don't happen, people thought it was crazy anyway, so who cares?

[B]

No, it's quite the opposite. If it doesn't happen, I get killed for it. There's a lot of incentive in our.

[A]

Business, but you don't care about that.

[B]

To not go out on a limb. Yeah, but that's true if you want to look smart.

[A]

Seahawks 49ers.

[B]

Seahawks, 49ers. What's the most important thing in the game? That's the question.

[A]

No, what's the match? Who's the most important thing?

[B]

Who's the most important? Okay, clearly on the Seahawks, to me, it is also the quarterback, because that is a boom or bust guy.

[A]

I agree with that.

[B]

Darnold goes, great game, Bad game. Great game, bad game. And now I'll take your coach thing, Shanahan, on the Niners, because the Niners have injuries to their best defensive players all year. They haven't had him available, and they were able to play great defense in the first game of the playoffs anyway. And you got to give Shanahan. You got to give the head coach credit for that. They make adjustments.

[A]

Bears, Rams, where are you on?

[B]

You agree with that? Shanahan, Darnold?

[A]

I agree with Darnold and I agree with Shanahan. Yes, yes, yes.

[B]

You know what the Bears Rams game is?

[A]

I know what it is. What is it for the Bears, I'm picking the weather.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Did you see what the.

[B]

Minus a billion degrees. Yeah.

[A]

There's no way you.

[B]

In Sofi, they would be calling me.

[A]

And say, paul, get out Here, Right? Right.

[B]

Yeah. No. Hell no.

[A]

I'm not even in this state of. I live in la. You think I'm going to play in that? Let's hope we win. And I'll see y' all next week at the Sofi for the whole.

[B]

You know what that game is?

[A]

There's no way I'm playing that.

[B]

You know what that game is? This game? Bears and.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Bears and Rams or Rams at Bears is the game should be called Fuck around and Find Out. That should be the name of the game. Because why. Why the Rams? You and I have been to Rams games. I sat in your suite with you a bunch of times this year. And the Rams early on, what you could see is they were special. They have the super bowl winning quarterback, super bowl winning coach, brilliant coach. They have the receivers, they have a defense that is not only excellent, but excellent on third down on the money down they come to get you. They beat the Texans week one. They beat the Seahawks later on at SoFi. But they've been trending down and in football, Texans right now trending up, Rams trending down. And the reason it's a fuck around or find out game is if the Rams play with their food, which they've been doing, and then they think Stafford.

[A]

And food is gonna be frozen. So I don't know how much playing you could do with your food when it's frozen.

[B]

But the point is they want their quarterback to bail them out. The Bears specialize in winning close games in the fourth quarter because they got a guy who, like Stafford, will make a huge play that only he can make or him and a handful of guys can make with Caleb Williams. If the Rams play around, they will lose to the. To the beast.

[A]

Boots, gloves, warmers, long. This is when you have to bring the long johns out. I can hear my mother now. Put those long johns on.

[B]

So happy you wear them too.

[A]

I'm doubling up. Long johns sweatpants. Then you have to come Carhartt full zip up Speedy and the earmuffs. You gotta. This is the. If you're going to this game, just first just getting out of the car, parking the car.

[B]

I disagree with this, actually. What I think when you go to the freezing game, you're prepared.

[A]

Not everybody.

[B]

The coldest I have ever been was in my whole life was that it was at. It was. It was Bucks at Eagles. Okay. In the playoffs when McNabb beat Vick and it was because it was cold. But you don't think of that game as like being in Chicago in the Middle of the winter. I'm talking about going 20 years. 20 years?

[A]

Yeah. What? Yeah, Michael big. I'm about to say.

[B]

Did I say bucks?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Falcons. Sorry, excuse me.

[A]

See what I'm saying? You're mine.

[B]

Falcons.

[A]

Your mind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is what I'm telling you.

[B]

Yeah. No, no foul. I said bucks because I talked about the Bucs earlier in their defense. This is going back 20 years. Falcons. Eagle. I said Vick. So you know I was talking about the Falcons. Falcons at Eagles last game at the vet. Who's that?

[A]

I'm not saying his name. Because if I say his name.

[B]

That's why I want you to say it.

[A]

No, no, Michael.

[B]

I want to do it.

[A]

I want to do it. You can do it. I want to.

[B]

Michael. Good enough. Listen, anytime you bring up his name, the affiliate team loses. That's good with me.

[A]

No, no, no. The code is event I ever been to actually these were back to back cold all star game in Toronto. When I tell you you have never felt cold like this before. And there was some impressive things happening during this cold. And when I tell you the impression the impressive thing was people were dressed up, going to events. Some had on. You know, I seen women with high heel on which is. I mean that's true warrior style. No question about it. I seen grown men shedding a tear. It was so cold. Then the following year it was in New York City or back, vice versa. It was the other way around. I think it was New York then Toronto. Either way, we're taking off to go home from New York. We're on the plane and we all on the plane like this, right? It's like four of us.

[B]

We like.

[A]

And I'm looking at the liquids on the plane. They're frozen, right this. We didn't start thawing out until we were descending to land back in Cleveland. When I tell that cold.

[B]

My point is when you get into. If you know you're going to a freezing cold game, you got to snorkel parka. You can do all that. It's the games that are cold but where that's not like a feature of the game and you wind up underdressed in the stand is when you are the coldest you've ever been.

[A]

Look at the weather because there's no way you're going to Philadelphia. You could look at.

[B]

But it's not like when you go to. If you're in. If you're going to a Bears, you have that on your mind. You're going to be over.

[A]

This is what I'm telling you, you underestimated the weather in Philly.

[B]

Yeah, but I mean, I'm from the.

[A]

Northeast, you know, this is what I'm telling you. You tried to be cute.

[B]

Yeah, a little bit.

[A]

And you paid for it.

[B]

I did, I did.

[A]

So just tell the truth to the people. You don't have to make this thing up.

[B]

Price of looking good. What can, what can I tell you?

[A]

And by the way, some days I will pay the price to look good. I've done it before. Yeah, but I won't do it Sunday in Chicago, I guarantee you that. And also, it's like life threatening conditions. Please let me be in a suite, please. Right. Just let me be in a suite, please. And I don't mind, I'll sit wherever, but for a game like that, I just want to be in a suite. The suite isn't going to stop the cold. It'll break it up a little bit.

[B]

Big time.

[A]

A little bit.

[B]

No, a lot. You got barriers from the cold.

[A]

I don't know, every time a door opens or something, it just. Trust me, I'm from Cleveland. I know what the.

[B]

There's another football game going on which we don't have to spend a lot of time on because honestly, Rich, it was amazing. The college football playoffs. Except that Indiana's been too dominant.

[A]

Why? Why are they so dominant?

[B]

Well, I mean, why do you think it's the same thing in college basketball? What happened in the men's game in college basketball is with the one and dones and stuff and competition for services overseas and stuff. High school kids going, you didn't get to really. You have teams with the five star recruit. Oh my God. Everyone's after this guy and you have him and he's a one and done. The team doesn't have a chance to bond, to learn each other, to develop as players together. The teams that succeed in college basketball or like Villanova, you might have three or four NBA rotation pieces and maybe they stay for three years at least. Right. And they're more mature, more schooled, more know how to play together better.

[A]

Yeah. Very few teams win a national championship in basketball with all young players. Except for the 2012 Kentucky team. But no, they wasn't. They had young players, but they also had some.

[B]

But they were, but they also had.

[A]

They had, they had, they had older guys too.

[B]

Totally loaded.

[A]

Fab Five didn't win it.

[B]

Right. Because they ran into a team like.

[A]

I'm describing, Kentucky 97 team won it.

[B]

You're going back to the 90s.

[A]

It's almost three I'm saying they were still young.

[B]

I'm just saying those are exceptions. This is the rule. Right. Indiana is like that. Indiana has grown men and they're playing against teenagers.

[A]

Yeah, see, I think I agree with that, but I want to add something to that. Not only they're not playing with teenagers because you can't even come out of college.

[B]

I know, but they are a more mature, older team.

[A]

To me, it's less about their age and it's more about their character. And I think Signetti really does a deep dive on character and on your habits and on your willingness and on your ability to be coachable and your iq. Can you. I think he. I think he does a real deep dive and he might have got some of this from the Saban experience and then put his own twist on it. And I think he sticks to that. And when you do that, one thing about the football game in the NFL, it's a 53 man roster. I don't know how many players on a college football team, but it's a lot. Not too shy of 53. It's 11 guys on each side of the ball. It's a different approach in football when you're trying to win and band together. You know the tackles the guard is pulling, you know you have to. The receiver has to make a downfield block. There has to be a lot of different sacrifices and selflessness that comes from a football player in moments, in key moments during the game.

[B]

So I agree with that, Rich, because what you're identifying, I think now that we're talking about it, is how many coaches are capable or really prioritize that stuff over certain athletic abilities.

[A]

Over skill or talent. Yeah.

[B]

Cause at that age, it's talent more than skill.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because the ones who will develop skill have what you're talking about and the ones who fit into a championship winning team. And so if that's what he covets, if that's his priority, he's going to find certain guys that are overlooked or because they're not as coveted by others. I think you're right. That's what leads to an older team maybe. Right. That's what I think. That's right.

[A]

So you basically. So you have Indiana to win the national championship. Yeah. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. If Miami wins, it'd be great because it'd be not what you're expecting. But I've so enjoyed these college, this, this college playoff. But if anything, Indiana put a little damper on it because they've been so dominant.

[A]

I'm still unsure. I need a few more days. I'll. I'll. I'll pick mine on Monday.

[B]

Game over is brought to you by FanDuel. The divisional round is where the NFL's best takes center stage. And with everything on the line, FanDuel is turning on playoff mode because all customers get a profit boost pack every NFL playoff game day waiting for you in the app. More boosts means more ways to level up your playoff bets. FanDuel makes it fast, easy and fun to get in on the playoff action. And when your bet wins, you'll get paid instantly. So visit FanDuel.com gameover and grab your profit boost pack every NFL playoff game day 21 and over and present in select states or 18 and over and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including any token expiration and max wager amount. See [e-mail] gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincut I want to talk to you about basketball today. I know we have a lot of football.

[A]

Educate me on this.

[B]

I need to know.

[A]

Wait, you're talking to me about basketball? Max, for this segment of us talking about basketball. I'm not an agent. Okay, okay. Because agents can't have podcasts, right?

[B]

Yeah, apparently so.

[A]

I'm not an agent. This is Podcast Paul.

[B]

Podcast Paul. Got it.

[A]

Okay, let's go.

[B]

Rich. As an agent, let me know. Okay. Podcast Paul.

[A]

Or you can, or. Yeah, I'm just Podcast Paul. Got it. Yeah, Podcast Paul.

[B]

I'm asking for some insight. Because of your job, when you're not doing a podcast, you have certain access and insight to things.

[A]

My actual job.

[B]

Your actual job?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I don't fully understand the Kaminga situation. I want you to put me up on game. What's going on?

[A]

What part of it? What don't you understand?

[B]

Well, just tell me about Kaminga and his situation right now.

[A]

I think he's a great young player. Good kid, nice kid. Obviously he was a high lottery pick. A lot of potential there. If you're asking me why isn't he playing or something like that or.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Well, I don't. I mean, I'm not, I'm not on the team. I don't. But here's what I say and I'll give you some insight. I think the player, a player of that caliber has an ability to play on most teams because of his talent.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But when you're on a specific team now, you have to kind of dive into that team's style of play and how it fits, how the coach wants to play the other pieces. Right. And so I can't justify, and I won't get into why somebody isn't playing. That's not my thing. But I imagine that given where things seem to be, maybe it's just not a fit there. But obviously he can play anywhere else. And I think in the event that his style of play was in more of a Draymond type of role, where you can rebound the ball, push, go into a dribble handoff, make the right read, you know, get off of it, go set a screen, roll again, boom, draw two, kick to the corner. That's not his style of play.

[B]

That's what he was advertised when they made the pick, and they have picked poorly.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Since the dynasty. Wiseman and Kaminga didn't turn out to be the players they wanted them to be. But he. I think of two guys who are advertised, they have the potential to do it, and one guy is doing it, OG Anunoby and the other guy, Kaminga, because those were the guys, when you saw them and you heard about them coming out, it was like they had the potential to be a Draymond Green type of player.

[A]

No, but that's. But that's. You're looking at body style, athleticism, all of that, but style of play matters.

[B]

And what people were saying about him.

[A]

Yeah, but they'd never seen him play like that, so I disagree with that. You've never seen him play like that.

[B]

That was the hope, though, that he would develop into that, right?

[A]

Yeah, but, you know, like, the shoe has to fit in a lot of cases.

[B]

So you're saying people were kind of projecting that ideal onto the player without. Without looking at what the player actually is doing.

[A]

Because, you know, his. From when I watched the games, he has a tremendous talent level. We understand that. There's nothing he probably can't do on the floor in terms of. Can he make a three? Yes. Play. No, I'm saying. But that's not his. He don't control that. Right. And it's also. Not. Again, he don't control that part. So the player himself obviously would probably benefit from being in a different situation where he could actually play to his strengths and play the style of basketball. That is, to who he is as a person and as a player. I don't know where that would be. Right. He's a young player. The Beauty of it is he's young. And I don't think it's all negative because I'll say this.

[B]

How old is Kaminga now?

[A]

He was in the 2021 draft.

[B]

So he's five years in already.

[A]

Right. Still young. He come in at 18 or 19, still pretty young, and he got some money, et cetera. I think that. I do think it possibly could have worked there. I don't know what the plan may be going forward, but obviously optics doesn't look like there's any plan going forward. Okay, fine. But as the player, I still think there is some value. Right? You've been in that locker room, you've been on a championship team, you've understood how it works because all locker rooms aren't created equal and all experiences in the NBA aren't created equal. And he's been around a lot of high level, high iq, very professional players. Right. Guys that's going to go into the hall of Fame, that's valuable. And you were able to get what we called a bridge deal, which is also a good thing for you. Now taking that nourishment and going wherever you may go, what the speculation may be will be extremely beneficial for him. I really believe that. And I do think getting into the right system with the right development, not that he don't have it where he's at now, but I'm saying for wherever he goes, if he goes somewhere, because all these things are speculation in the media we see articles written that be kind of off, you know, everything is not fact that's put out there that you read, et cetera. But obviously optics are optics. So a guy like that's not playing, maybe it's come to the end of the road. Okay, fine. But from the team's perspective, they draft a guy seven, they can't just let him walk out the door. So especially when you're over the tax, you don't really want to give up draft capital, whatever draft capital you may have. And so you have to retain a player of that magnitude to be able to trade them out.

[B]

So you get something for them.

[A]

Yeah, so you can get something for him. So you know what always seems to be negative. And I see people always say, you know, and look, I have guys in situations that probably should be playing and aren't playing either. Like that's part of the.

[B]

Let me ask you a question about what you just said, though. You said he does not playing, that's not outside of his control. Not exactly. Because if they want you to play a certain way and you don't play that way. That's in your control.

[A]

That's fair.

[B]

That's fair. Now, if what you're saying is, Max, he's not really capable. That's not like. It's not. In other words, it's not a good idea for him to try to play that way because that's not his game. It's really a situation where it's just a bad fit or. Yes, because from my point of view, it'd be wise for him to try to play that way. Like when you have a very talented player who is also willing to play a role. But that role requires quick thinking and doing all the little things that's just gonna make him a better player.

[A]

But what you just described, Max, is the hardest part about our league. You have to understand something, man. And I think people don't really understand it. Every guy in the NBA was once the best player on their high school team in their neighborhood, probably in their entire state. They were the best player. Any gym they walk in, they're the best player. Once you get to the NBA, you become one of the. But all of this time, you were the best player. Everywhere you went, you were the best player. You were McDonald's All American, you was this, you was that, you was ranked, et cetera. Now you get to the NBA, you become one of 450. Just from a talent perspective, we haven't even gotten into the business part of it. You may get to a team that has someone else on the team that play in your position, that just signed a new contract or that's been there for a while, that may be a legacy player for this organization, there's a.

[B]

Reason to play him.

[A]

The way the draft works is this. Once you get out of the top three, top four, maybe at that point, a team is picking best case, like best. You know, like the best available player. That's why you always see Jay Billis. When it's the draft, it says best available player. So at that point, you're picking the best available player. What do you base that on? Well, things that that player has done. You doing the analytics, you do all the background check, you do all those different things. The draft is exactly what it is. It's a draft. It is you making a bet. And that bet sometimes come not just from a talent perspective, but you're also making the bet that someone could embrace a role, that someone could develop, be.

[B]

The kind of player Sinetti goes after.

[A]

Yeah, that someone could, you know, mature to a level. There's all these different things it's not so much as about Jonathan Kaminga, because I think Jonathan Kaminga is a talent in our league, and he's going to play in our league for a long time. But sometimes in a situation like in that particular draft, I guarantee you, if you went back to every team's board, I don't think they had him seven, so they might have had him much higher. So once he gets to seven, it's like, oh, well, we didn't even know he was going to be here. So we have to take him even.

[B]

If it's not a fit. Because what? Yeah, because, see, when you say you have to understand he was the best on his high school team, so what that tells me is he wants a starring role.

[A]

Maybe. I don't know.

[B]

But there are ways to have a star. Like Draymond Green is a star. Draymond Green's a star without the same athletic ability as Jonathan Kaminga, precisely because of the way he plays. OG Anunoby is developing into a star because he's doing that. If Kaminga has more talent than them and he plays in that style, then he would be a bigger star than them. But wait, Rich, what I'm saying is maybe he's not capable of playing that way because that way requires a very high level of determination to always make the right play and a very high basketball iq. And not everyone has what Draymond Green or OG Anunoby have.

[A]

Here's what I would say to that. You just named two guys, right? And I think. I'm not gonna use the word unfair. I just think that it's hard to not. It's not hard to compare. What I would say is those are three different scenarios. Number one, Draymond was a second round pick. He went to Michigan State.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

He played at Michigan State. And also, Draymond grew up with things that not having, things that Kaminga actually has. One thing about when a player is so athletic, you're gonna lean on that athleticism.

[B]

Curse of the gift.

[A]

That's a very natural thing. That's just a very natural thing. Draymond never had that. So in order for him to become the player that he actually became, he had to become better at a floor game, right? And now you play at Saginaw. Then you play for, you know, the family AAU team. The family AAU team back in those days, you have to play a certain way. Okay? Then you choose to go and be coached by one of the greatest college coaches of all time, Tom Izzo. And not only do you Go there, you go there. And when you get there, there's players better than you, all over, before you, after you, everything. Right. So that's that nourishment from Granny. You're getting that nourishment. In OG's case, he went to Indiana. He was, what, the 17th pick in the draft? I believe he gets drafted to the Toronto Raptors at a time where the Toronto Raptors are gelling. So now you're plugging into a place and Masai team. Yeah, but he was injured coming in. Remember, he had the acl.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

So now you get a whole time to sit back, acclimate to the league. Exactly right. And so that team was going to the Eastern Conference finals or second round of the playoffs. That experience, that's where him and Kaminga are.

[B]

What you're describing is the paths that incentivize that kind of behavior on the court.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. And behind the scenes.

[A]

Yes. But what I'm saying is, because Draymond's floor game, everyone, Draymond thought he was going overseas. He ended up going in the second round. And when he gets to the Golden State warriors, the reason why he can play the way he play is because he's always. So now you put him next to the two of the greatest shooters ever.

[B]

Yeah, right. Situation. It all fit together. Draymond Green is the person second most responsible for changing basketball in this new era. It's Steph one, DRAYMOND two like, more than anyone else, because they. That really allowed that whole thing to happen.

[A]

It allowed it to work. So the last thing I'll say the next thing about Kaminga, so now Kaminga gets drafted to the Golden State Warriors. We don't know what was said to him coming into the draft. We don't know what was said to him his whole journey up, how he was allowed to play. He was bigger, stronger, faster than everybody else. You have to look at the tapes when he played in the G League, how he played. So now if my mindset is I'm going to a team and it's about me scoring the ball, being able to get mine off, et cetera. And then you place me in a place to where not only that, I gotta catch the ball at the nail, I gotta go to a dribble handoff, I gotta be able to read a guy slipping. And, you know, Clay coming this way, Steph going this way. Like, it's not about the capabilities, in my opinion. I think it's more about the willingness of any player to go into an environment and not be able to play the style of play that I'm conducive to or that I always dreamed of playing. The capabilities are there. I won't say that it's just about.

[B]

There's a fine line at that point. There's a fine line between an explanation and an excuse. So what I mean by that is cause and effect exists. No one denies that cause and effect exists. Something happens, and it leads to an effect. And you're describing the causal relationship of how someone like Kaminga maybe develops this way and someone like Draymond develops that way or OG develops that way. I don't deny that cause and effect exists and that situations can and incentives can influence behavior. But as my old radio partner, Marcellus Wiley used to tell me that his grandma, Grandma Blackie used to tell him, don't tell me about the pain, Just show me the baby. Right? Like, in the end, the excuses are for the people who didn't. It didn't work out. Then there are other types who, no matter what you put them into, there's something in them. For example, the reason I'm doing this podcast with you is one thing I noticed about you. But you've never done media before. But you're not built to lose. Like, I have confidence that whatever would happen, Rich is gonna make sure he figures it out. Right? There are people like that who succeed in life, and there are others. And Kaminga's already succeeded in life. Okay, like. But now he has a new comparison. Now you have to succeed compared to the 450 other guys in the league, and he's not doing that. So for whatever reason, cause of cause and effect that you described, OG is Draymond certainly did. Kaminga's not. At a certain point, the explanations become excuses. If he's on a team where he needs to do certain things differently in order to get playing time, then that's what he's got to do. Unless he's incapable of doing it, because that role requires a level of a basketball brain. Not trying to offend Kaminga because not everyone has Draymond Green's basketball. Draymond Green is a very high IQ player, and doing that job requires an extremely high basketball iq.

[A]

There's no question about it. All I wanted to do is paint the picture for you, right? Just paint the picture. You can decide whatever you think.

[B]

If I like the painting right?

[A]

I have a player on the warriors that I talk about all the time, and I talk to all the time. Moses Moody. My conversation with Moses was exactly this. You should be looking to Push Draymond out. Give them a reason to play.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And so we know you can shoot the three, which catch and shoot. He's there. Big, strong, gonna defend everything. What's the areas to get better? What we working on this summer? In my opinion, we have to work on being able to rebound, push going to a dribble handoff read. Because if you can do that, you're.

[B]

Giving them good advice with what you.

[A]

Already are came in here able to doing. Now it's not even about the Warriors. You know what it's about. I can play on any roster in the NBA. Hey, it's Brooklyn Adams, and I'm partnering with Abercrombie to tell you about the newest drop from their active brand. Your personal best YPB leggings are made with buttery soft fabrics that hug you in all the right places. And common Abercrombie's viral curve love fit designed to eliminate waist gap. Paired with sports bras and super soft sweatshirts, it's activewear that supports every part of my busy lifestyle and gives me my best butt ever. Head into the new year feeling your personal best shop Active by Abercrombie in the app, online and in stores.

[B]

So that leads to another conversation rich that I've been. I wanted to talk about this because we talk about it off air time was okay. So I remember when I'm a little kid, watch. I don't know, 10 years old, whatever it is. And the Knicks have Patrick Ewing now, and the Bulls have Michael Jordan early in their careers. And I'm watching the Knicks and the Bulls, and I'm telling my father, michael Jordan's gonna be the best player in basketball. And my father said, you would never trade Patrick Ewing for Michael Jordan. I'm like, watch the game. And he's telling me, you never trade a guard for a center.

[A]

I know Pops is a shrink.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But we might have to check his.

[B]

Mind on that one, because he's coming from an era where the way basketball worked since it began, basically was you get your great big. This is how you win championships. And then you Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, whoever it is, and then you get your point guard to go with him. Right, Right. And the league was changing. And it turns out that the best way to do it, even Magic and Kareem, that was the latest example, the best way to do it was two two way wings, Jordan and Pippen. And you could call them wings or a player, new wing, but not a point guard.

[A]

If you get those wings, I don't those are like. You can't find those wings.

[B]

Extra crispy, hot sauce, everything.

[A]

I don't know, we might have to go down to South Carolina to my. Dude, look at that right there. And get those wings. Because them wings don't exist.

[B]

LeBron and Wade was. Okay, you want to call Wade backcourt, whatever. But a two, two way, two threes, right? A two guard or a three and.

[A]

They both depend if they need right now would be not comparing them to those two. So don't get confused. That would be Jalen and Jason.

[B]

Right. Except. Except Tatum is more of a three, four than a two, three. Right, okay. And okay. It's not.

[A]

I think they like 2, 3, 4.

[B]

Yeah, right, right. You picked your points and LeBron also changed that because LeBron is a 1 through 4, you know, so sometimes, let's be honest. But then it. Then things changed again because Kawhi and Paul George got together two, two way Wings and got blown out the gym by Luka. Luka destroyed them. Right? Who is not that style of player. So the game evolves again. My question is this. We see Jokic as the best player in the game. Wemby is coming. I mean, he's already here, right? We have guys like Giannis, whatever. You know, you have a lot of foreign born players.

[A]

Luka, there's no whatever when you talk about Giannis.

[B]

What's that?

[A]

Put some respect on Giannis name. It's no whatever. It's Giannis.

[B]

What did I say?

[A]

You said Giannis whatever.

[B]

Well, I'm saying whatever. Like you have. There's whomever, okay. Luka's been to a conference finals, you know, he's a dominant offensive player. What would it take nowadays because we're talking about Kaminga for an American born, right? Who comes up in this country, Two Way Wing to be the best player in basketball. I think that's when basketball is at its best like that. To me, that's Michael Jordan, right? That's Kobe Bryant, that's LeBron James. Even though LeBron is multi dimensional in certain other ways. But that is what I'm used to as being the best player in basketball. The guy who comes closest to fitting that bill is Ant Edwards. And Ant Edwards is not nearly the best player in basketball right now. Is he a top three? Is he a top five? What would it take for Anthony Edwards to be the best player in the NBA?

[A]

This is a very loaded question because on any given night, Ant Edwards looks like the best player in the NBA to me.

[B]

I mean, he's great.

[A]

I don't know if you have 4k or not, but I mean I have.

[B]

Is Anthony Edwards the best player in basketball?

[A]

I mean people are going to say Jokic is the best player in basketball. But what you're saying, what does it take? I don't think it's a skill or a talent. I think it takes a lot of. It takes a lot of things. Like the same thing it took for. I think we put too much on the individual player because they can only bring to the table what they bring. And all those guys you name, their bags are packed. They got more luggage than Eddie Murphy and Arsenio hall coming to America. Their bags are packed. Right. But it also takes other things that they don't control. You can name any player. Let's just talk about the Wings. We named Jaden and Jason. Well, you said what could it take for them? A lot. They had two back to back, really good coaches. The one coach they had that was really good in Brad Stevens, he didn't even leave. He went upstairs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then you got Joe Missoula who comes in. Prior to that they had ime. So that's three really good coaches who.

[B]

Didn'T win until they brought in Kristaps Porzingis who stayed mostly healthy on top of everything else.

[A]

But you're saying until.

[B]

And. And Jrue Holiday.

[A]

But you're saying and Teal. But you're not giving the credit that the fact that they made those moves.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Right.

[B]

No, I'm supporting your point.

[A]

Yeah. I'm just saying it takes a lot for an individual player to win. Like we always put this thing, we've fallen in love with this idea of the best player always had to make the last second shot and had to do this and do that. But that's not what wins.

[B]

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about why is it that. What? Okay. The only guy I can think of who said he did it and it was only because of injury on Golden State, let's face it, was Kawhi. Kawhi. You know, I guess you could say kd.

[A]

What you mean is the only guy that did it.

[B]

No, no. In recent years, the two way wing, who is the best player on a championship team? You could say KD. But once you parachute KD onto a 73 win team, you're fixing it.

[A]

Here's the thing. The two way. That two way player has to get the opportunity to have a team to compete in the championship in order to even, you know, accomplish that. You can't just.

[B]

But there have Been two way wings in recent years who have been on loaded teams and they haven't won.

[A]

Who?

[B]

I mentioned Kawhi and Paul George. They made the playoffs. They were hurt, but then they were together in the playoffs healthy. You said championship team and got killed.

[A]

Loaded and championship team is not the same thing.

[B]

It is the same thing. If you have a loaded team with two two way wings and the best player in the game, you're going to win the championship. You're going to win the championship.

[A]

Let me ask you this question. When both of those guys were on the same team, was any one of those guys the best player in the league?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay, so you can't make the point.

[B]

That's what I'm asking. That's what I'm saying. If they were the best player in the league, they would have won. What's it going to take for that guy? Like it's going to take. Are you saying that if Anthony Edwards was on a team with a great coach and a loaded team, et cetera, et cetera, then he would win the championship and be perceived as the best player in the league? Would Rich Paul think that Ant Edwards is better than Nikola Jokic? Does Rich Paul think Ant Edwards is better than Jokic?

[A]

I would think that if any player that's a two way player that you consider the best player in the league was on a championship team that actually won the championship and they were the best player on that team, I think the league grants them the best player because that's what.

[B]

Do you think Ant Edwards is as good as Jokic right now? Because I do not and I think highly of Ant Edwards. I do not. I think that they're probably at least two to three, maybe four players I'll take before Ant right now.

[A]

Here's what I'll say.

[B]

And I love Ant.

[A]

I think that's a. I think again, that's a fantasy basketball question that you love to play fantasy basketball. What I will say is this. If you said to me, I'm starting my team with Jokic, you starting your team with Ant, we're both going to build the best teams possible around.

[B]

It's going to take more for you to build a team than for me. That's what I'm saying.

[A]

That's okay. But here's what I know, here's what I know. It ain't gonna be easy for you because that guy is a warrior on both sides and he's not gonna shy away from the moment.

[B]

So you're saying Ant Edwards could be perceived as the best Player.

[A]

If he gets to the point to where he has the ability to play, and he almost got there to play on that stage, and he actually wins. I think the. We didn't start saying that Jokic was the best player in the league until he actually won.

[B]

No. Why? Because part of the reason they didn't win was he didn't play well enough when Jamal Murray went off in the bubble. Jokic played well. He's a great player. But when the best player is in that situation and he has a chance to win, like I always bring up Michael Jordan, maybe it's an unfair comparison. He never lost when you gave him a shot. He won every time. Know why? He was the best player in basketball.

[A]

Yes, but he also had all the other pieces that fit to actually win. Iq, Pippen, Jackson. Yes, he was the best player, and he was granted that.

[B]

Does Edwards have the IQ to be a getaway?

[A]

Yes, of course. Yeah.

[B]

The highest one. So you're saying we've seen. Listen, are you saying. What I'm trying to figure out is, has basketball changed in a way. Has the NBA changed in a way where the play, the style of play of the great passer with the great shot, you know, whether that's a big. Whether it's a backcourt player, and a lot of that came from international players, South America, Europe, that, that, that, that it's. That doesn't render the guy who used to be the best obsolete, that the guy who used to be the best could still be the best.

[A]

Although Jokic was the best player when they won, who was the most impactful player?

[B]

Jokic. I think that the move they made that put them over the top was Aaron Gordon.

[A]

Okay, then. So now if you.

[B]

But Jokic was easily the best player on the team.

[A]

Yeah, but here's what I'm saying, what you just said. They made a move that brought them.

[B]

Aaron Gordon and made it obvious that Jokic was the best player in basketball.

[A]

And who is Aaron? How tall is Aaron Gordon?

[B]

Six, nine.

[A]

What does he weigh?

[B]

A lot. Like, you know, he's a big guy. He's not a skinny guy.

[A]

Right. What is he capable of doing on the floor?

[B]

He can jump out the gym. And his shot has improved. And he can finish at the rim. He can. And he can roll. He can. He's a high IQ player.

[A]

And he can guard.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

One, two, three, four, some fives. Because he's built strong and because he.

[B]

As I mentioned, first thing he did was literally buy a gym and live in the gym. He literally lives in the gym. In his own gym.

[A]

But going back to your point, know what he did? He changed his mindset.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Coming from Orlando as the fourth pick in the draft, he wanted and decided to play X way. Right when he got to Denver, the fourth pick in the draft. See, one thing about being drafted high, just leave that at draft date. Don't even put that in your luggage.

[B]

So history will remember winners like Aaron Gordon and Andre Iguodala who were drafted high. Michael Thompson, Klay's dad, who were stars, who said, it's more important for me to be a champion than for me to hog the ball.

[A]

Aaron Gordon plays that dunker spot better than anybody and he guards. And then once the jumper's falling, when you add that with Murray and Jokic. And the good thing about Jokic is he gonna give you 40, 10, 10.

[B]

So this ties back into Kaminga and.

[A]

No, but what I'm saying is, my answer is yes, there can be an American player that's a two way player that could be the best champ, that could be the best player on a championship team, considered the best player in the league. Yes. But you ask me what does it take for them to get there and I'm telling you, it takes a lot. Because like you said, styles make fights in that series. In the bubble where Denver lost to the Lakers, how'd they lose? The Lakers happen to have Dwight Howard, who was brolic enough and, and low enough. Low enough. Now you got AD coming on the, on the, you know, on the weak side. Help. Right. That is a, that is a formula that worked at that point. Right. You had Rondo, you had. So that was just a. And it was, and it was one, it was one three pointer at the buzzard away from being probably a six, seven game series. I don't know, I don't remember what it was. Right.

[B]

NBA, usually the best team wins.

[A]

Okay. But they was the best team all year.

[B]

So I want to take this back to Kaminga. So what it seems to me you're saying is yes, an American two way wing can still be the best player in the Sport the way MJ and Kobe and LeBron is not American.

[A]

So why are you taking it back to Kaminga?

[B]

What's that?

[A]

Kaminga's not American?

[B]

No, no. Well, you'll see because we're talking about Ant Edwards. Right? But what that guy needs is enough Kaminga types to buy into the Iguodala Aaron Gordon role, Draymond Green role. He needs excellent players to forget about where they were drafted or what they. And buy into being A championship player. He needs those kind of players with him to do it.

[A]

In addition. Yes. Because let me tell you, I see people all the time and this is what. Do you know how hard it is to build a roster? Yeah, just a roster, let alone a championship roster. And I think obviously I'm in the space, so I understand it a little bit better. But it's so many different factors to it from ownership on down. Right. Like, how many years are you going to sit in the tax? How many years is your owner willing to pay the tax? That matters. The draft picks. Do your draft picks hit? That matters. You know, are you able to make certain trades to fill in the pieces and then does guys stay healthy? That matters. Matchups matters. When a guy is healthy versus when they're not healthy. Sometimes you catch a bad break and a guy. Would you rather a guy go down? Just last year, the Cavs caught a bad break. They were rolling. Darius goes down at a bad time. Right. If he goes down earlier and was able to come back, it's a different dynamic. It's timing. So for all these takes that be on these shows and everyone's saying this person should do this and that person should do that, and even my hypothetical. I get it, we're hypothetically talking about things, but I'm telling you, it's extremely hard to build a championship roster.

[B]

Let's talk about that for a second.

[A]

It's not just based upon a name. Because you could sit here and say, oh, well, if I put this star with that star, I guarantee we're going to win. I guarantee you won't.

[B]

Okay, let's talk about that for a second. Because the question. And we could talk about. I wanted to do a point guard thing, but we can do about that. Next week, the Dodgers signed Kyle Tucker. I saw that. And the question. The right fielder from the Astros and the Cubs picked him up for the one year. And he's kind of like a lot of people in New York thought he'll be the consolation prize eventually for losing. Juan Soto. Kyle Tucker's a very good player. Like, he's a blue chip player, the kind of guy that I'm used to seeing on the old Yankees teams that would win championships. He doesn't, you know, nowadays people don't hit.320, but he ain't hitting.230 either. He hits for power. He can put the ball in play. He can play the outfield. Everyone. The question everyone seems to be asking today is, are the Dodgers ruining baseball?

[A]

No.

[B]

Agreed. But I think that there's a lesson in what the Dodgers are doing. And a couple weeks ago I mentioned about AD and you said eventually he gets hurt and you're like, this is why you don't play in traffic, right? If you're thinking, if you're Dallas and you're thinking about moving ad, you either move him or you don't. But the longer you wait, the higher the chances something can go sideways and you don't play in traffic. But before that happened, before he got hurt, I made the point that whoever's in the Giannis market, like whoever's really seriously considering making a move for Giannis, they ought to consider making a move for ad, because he's going to come for pennies on the dollar in terms of what you have to give up. Cuz he's a little older, he's more injury prone and he's perceived as not being as much in his prime as Giannis, Even though when AD's on the floor, he's a monster. And I thought that was a good idea. But I did mention the caveat was that when you're gonna make a move for a player, sometimes it's better not to look for the bargain because he's older or injury prone or maybe not as good as someone else. But just to go all in on the blue chip guy, this is what like. And I brought up my Yankees because, you know, the Dodgers get Freddie Freeman in the middle of a Hall of Fame career and the Yankees look and they go, what? Oh, Paul Goldschmidt, he's not as good as Friedman, but he used to be good and maybe we can get something out of him. He's almost 40 years old and they're always. The Yankees are looking for the bargain guys. And the Dodgers, on the other hand, yes, they have a ton of resources, but they get the blue chip guy. They went out and got, they didn't mess around. Mookie Betts, obviously you get Shohei, right? Like huge. You get Freddie Freeman, I mentioned. And now they get Kyle Tucker. And while, you know, they make sure that when that guy is available, they're gonna get him. And that is also you just mentioned, it's not just the name. Whatever. Depends on the name if it's a guy that you are convinced about. Like you see Mookie Betts. This dude's going to the hall of Fame one day. He's one of the greatest players of all time. Let's get him. Same thing with Shohei Ohtami. Let everyone else strike out. We're going to land him There's a lesson in that, I think, also, I think it's not, are they ruining baseball? They're showing teams how to do it well.

[A]

I think the most impressive thing with that is they just won number one. They have all the players to. If they wanted to. To trick the fan base and sell like, we're going to be good, and if they come up short, we'll be good next year. They have all of that. What this says to me is they are addicted to winning. They just want to win, win, win, win. And they're not cutting any corners on the field, in the front office, nowhere. And I've been to plenty of Dodgers games. They're not cutting no corners, period. And so that is impressive. I don't think they're ruining baseball. I think that, you know, everyone. Everyone shops different and does things different. Just like I talk to people all the time about flying, right? And I know people say, oh, you know, I actually do fly Delta. I love it. The reason why I fly Delta is because I don't. I just want to. Delta.

[B]

Delta360. What are we doing?

[A]

I am Delta360 already.

[B]

Let's get them on. They should get him free advertising. Let's get him as a sponsor.

[A]

It's not free advertising. Ed's my man. Ed and Annika and Leisha, they all there. That's family. But what I'll say to you is the reason why I fly Delta is because I just want to get there. And sometimes I talk to people and they're like, well, I'm like, where you getting ready to go? I'm going to Atlanta, but I have to stop in Chicago or I have to stop in. And I understand. And I'm like, well, why are you doing that? Well, the flight was $200 more. Just pay it. Because at the end of the day.

[B]

If you got it, if you have. Of course, if you got it, if.

[A]

You have it, just pay it. Because at. Because the time is going to take you. What could happen? It could be a layover. And I would say you're going to Chicago. Do you know how big Chicago o' Hare Airport is? The likeness of you having a delay is very likely rich.

[B]

This gets fly to just opened a can of worms. I'm trying to think of which one first. There's. This goes for all kinds of stuff. If you have it.

[A]

If you have it.

[B]

If you've ever been to, like, if.

[A]

You don't have it, that's a different story.

[B]

London or something. You go into someone's apartment, you See a chair in the kitchen, their grandmother bought that chair and they paid money for it. Right. Even if it's a working class family. But they may have. Because the culture, even though the standard of living is lower, the culture is not disposable culture. Right. Part of the American dynamism and our industry is that we sell, sell, sell, sell, sell. It's maybe not made the greatest, it's not going to last forever, but you just buy another one that we feed the consumerism, which is a good thing in a lot of respects. But you don't always find the same kind of quality stuff that you might. If people have to be a little more considerate about what they're shopping for. Right.

[A]

Furniture is, is a big thing with this topic. Just buy the. If you can afford it, the lane of affordability that you have, buy at the highest level of furniture in that lane. Because when you buy at the lowest level, it's going to break and you're going to end up paying three times. I used to go to Le Ven Furniture when I was like 16, 17 years, and they had these like the living room set and everyone had the lamp with the, with the, with the arms on it. Come all the way across.

[B]

Yeah, the big arcing one.

[A]

Everybody had that. Right. But I'm like, it dawned on me, it's like, why are people buying new dining room sets every year?

[B]

Because if you get. And this goes, you're right again, just buy them. If you. Not everyone has a disposable income. If you can afford it, if you're.

[A]

Gonna shop, we all know that this.

[B]

Goes for the article of clothing, this goes for the food, whatever. What winds up happening. If you don't get what the thing you really wanted is, you will compensate for it by getting the imitation of that three times and wind up spending more and never being satisfied.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So that's part of it. That's part of the dynamic you're talking about when the Yankees go bargain hunting and the Dodgers spend the money. But there's another.

[A]

I tip my hat to the Dodgers.

[B]

This also ties into something you said earlier about, and I said, the curse of the gifted. When you have a really athletic player, they can rely on their athleticism. They don't have to learn their craft as well in order to be successful. When you have the fantastic athlete who's dedicated to learning the craft, that's mj. That's when you get the best.

[A]

Well, this goes back to youth sports.

[B]

Well, hold on, before we go there.

[A]

I don't want to Go there.

[B]

But I'm just saying, right before we go there, I think about the Oakland Athletics, who were playing what's called Moneyball. Billy Beane had read Bill James and the godfather of sabermetrics, who I read when I was like, 13 years old and understood analytics in a different way than others. And so the Athletics, on a tiny payroll, were going to the playoffs every year. Right. But they were doing it on a shoestring budget. They weren't winning the World Series. When the Boston Red Sox hired Bill James, the godfather of sabermetrics, I was on around the horn at the time. This is like 02, 24 years ago. And I predicted the Red Sox would win three of the next 10 World Series. On the 10th year, they won their third because the Red Sox were playing Moneyball with money. The next team to do that was the Dodgers. The Yankees are like the athlete who doesn't have to have the advanced analytics department the way other teams do, because they can win anyway. Win enough.

[A]

Can you play Moneyball without money?

[B]

Yeah, that's, that's the point of Moneyball. The point of Moneyball.

[A]

I know, I, I, I know what.

[B]

The was finding underpriced commodities. Right? And then, and so, so you don't have the money. So you're buying players with warts, but they can get you there.

[A]

But they did have the money. Know where the money was at, huh?

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

But that's where the money was.

[B]

But when, so you're twice paid. If you come in, Walter's group comes in and buys the Dodgers, the first thing they do is go get Andrew Friedman from the Tampa Bay Rays, who was in the playoffs with no money. They bring him in. And when I saw that, I thought, oh, my God, the richest owner in baseball just hired the smartest GM in the game. Who's. If you look at GM trees, like we look at coaching trees and look at Friedman's, it's crazy. They're playing money ball with money. They're not allowing their athletic ability, meaning the money, to stop them from doing the work. Meaning being smart. The Yankees are smart enough to be in the playoffs, but not to win the World Series. The Dodgers are spending, and they're spending smarter. That's the best team in the game.

[A]

Yeah. Well, it's definitely showing. Yeah, they keep winning.

[B]

I think that's, you know, you know, I wanted to do hate mail today. We read each other's hate mail because it's weak. I want to give an example.

[A]

But the hate mail's gonna make us better.

[B]

Just I know, but. No, no, no. The hate mail's not hateful enough.

[A]

I mean, we can't be that hated. Jesus Christ.

[B]

I mean, I'll read one for you, you read one for me. But I wanna tell everybody something, cuz Jimmy Kimmel does this and a lot of people do this. Anyone who thinks, oh, we're riding the trend. I had a show called Imax on Fox SportsNet in 2003, and at the end of the show, if I won the show, they read me my love mail, and if I lost the show, they read me my hate mail.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

2003. I didn't major in math, but it seems to me that was 23 years ago. 23 years ago. Okay.

[A]

Yes, it was.

[B]

So I'm gonna read yours. Go ahead, Rich Paul is a hilariously bad podcaster. This latest episode was incredible. The way he refuses to even try to build a rapport with Max. And then he mentions that he listens back to every episode. Unreal. Here. Well, you read mine and then we'll.

[A]

I don't know who said that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I'm so glad he never saw me play golf.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Boy, oh boy. Yeah, but don't worry, listen, I'm coachable.

[B]

Don't respond to. No, I'm just saying, that's not even hate mail.

[A]

It's like a love hate. No, but I'm just saying I'm coachable. The party. Let me just say this.

[B]

People are not.

[A]

The party won't be like vicious stuff.

[B]

That's nothing.

[A]

The party won't be like the picnic, Max.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Just know that.

[B]

Right?

[A]

The party won't be like the picnic. Okay? And when you see a kid that's athletic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If they're super athletic at that very moment, start teaching the IQ part of the game.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Because athletic is like being very pretty. And pretty is what pretty does. And if pretty ain't doing, then right.

[B]

You find a really pretty girl with a great personality and she's funny, you go, how did that happen? Because all her life she's getting attention without having to be funny and stuff like that.

[A]

Exactly. Wait a minute. Oh, this for you? Yeah, man, it's fun.

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

Wait, you don't have to put this on the floor.

[B]

Yeah. You could see it from space. Yeah.

[A]

You gonna mess up my eyesight.

[B]

Just ring. It's too big.

[A]

Okay. I won't say it's from.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

Used to respect Max Kellerman before this ish. This garbage. Has to be the worst podcast or whatever in sports media history. Damn.

[B]

That is a Little hateful Rich. This is.

[A]

I was expecting people to send him a candle.

[B]

I was expecting people to get savage. This is nothing.

[A]

Well, listen, don't get.

[B]

That's the best you got. Can someone.

[A]

No, no, no, no.

[B]

That's the best you got.

[A]

Don't get too savage. We live in a. No, no, no. Don't get too savage. But, yeah, yeah, all right. Yeah, it's the hate mail.

[B]

I saw some comments that said I'm a clutch client, that this is a LeBron propaganda show and I'm a clutch client. I'm not a clutch client.

[A]

Yeah, I just saw somebody else say that. It was like everything. I'm like, whatever. I'm not even. By the way, I'm not an agent on this show because agents aren't allowed to have podcasts. So I am a media. What am I called? What would I be?

[B]

A pundit? A commentator. Commentator's a horrible word, but that's what it says.

[A]

But I have to be, like a hybrid or something. I'm like a media executive. Whatever you want to call it.

[B]

Front facing media executive.

[A]

Just don't call me an agent for the hour of my day that I start my day on this show, because this is, like my third job. This is not like my. Just like my first job. It's my third job. This is my happy place. Everyone gets to have their happy place but me, apparently. But that's okay, right? I'm happy.

[B]

Do you feel very put upon? Do you feel persecuted?

[A]

I couldn't say what you just said if you said that fast.

[B]

Put upon, Put upon. Yeah. Or do you feel. Do you feel persecuted?

[A]

What?

[B]

Well, I'm saying, Max, this is your happy place.

[A]

I'm from St. Clair.

[B]

Why is it your happy place? I mean, me too. I have fun doing the show, but.

[A]

Just so you know.

[B]

Yeah, but I mean, like. Cause you don't have to be an agent for an hour.

[A]

Yeah, it's like. It's like, you know, just relax. I'm like an agent. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't have to be an agent for an hour.

[B]

Well, you get to be an agent until. Cause I know you work on the weekends. You don't stop working.

[A]

I don't stop working on.

[B]

You get to. You get to be an agent until, like, this time on Monday.

[A]

What day is it?

[B]

Friday.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Well, I'll see you on Monday.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

What are you doing for the weekend?

[B]

I got.

[A]

Besides watching football.

[B]

Full house this weekend.

[A]

Oh, your family's in town?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, nice. Y. I gotta meet the Fam. Can I meet the fam?

[B]

No question. Swing through.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. Girls will be here.

[A]

Yeah, I'll do it.

[B]

For sure. Max Kellerman, Rich Paul. Game over.

[A]

Please subscribe.

[B]

If you want your commute to be the go from the worst part of your day to the best part of your day, subscribe.

[A]

Otherwise, why can't we just stop at. Please subscribe. They heard you. They heard you. You gonna mess up. They might be pressing the button. Did you hear you talking again? And say. You know what? Forget about it.

[B]

Listen, Monday we got a big show. We gotta go over these NFL games. We're gonna have answers. Did Josh Allen get it done?

[A]

I didn't pick who was gonna win. I got. Before we go. I got. Bears.

[B]

Rams.

[A]

I'm going with the Bears.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm going with the Seahawks.

[B]

Me, too.

[A]

I'm going with the. I'm gonna go with the Texans. Me, too. And I'm gonna go with the Bills. That's why I wore this Jim Kelly today. I believe Josh Allen is going on the road and getting it done.

[B]

I thought I was gonna say Broncos. I agree with you. So we're only different on.

[A]

What was it?

[B]

Rams. Bears. I'm taking the Rams.

[A]

Rams. I'm taking the Bears. Yeah. I gotta. You know, my man Kevin Warren, man. And the Rams already won.

[B]

Yeah. I'm picking them based on who I think is gonna win, not what I want to happen.

[A]

Well, here's the thing. It's a win win for me because if the Rams actually win, then we have a game at Sofi.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If the Bears win, then Chicago's good.

[B]

Which is always good for the NFL.

[A]

And we have Montez Sweat and Javon Dexter and other players on. My guy, Kevin Warren is just, you know, it's tough for me.

[B]

Are you the agent, Rich Paul, right now?

[A]

No, no, no, no. I'm the supporter.

[B]

Oh, I see.

[A]

Oh. Because I'm not a football agent. I mean, I just happen to be.

[B]

Own the. Own a company that. Own an agency that has football agents.

[A]

Whatever. Yeah. Good luck, fellas.

[B]

Game over. Tune in on Monday. Must be 21 and over in present and select states for Kansas in affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit RG help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-87-7-8, HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New.