Gilbert Arenas Joins Max and Rich, an NBA Game 7, and the Knicks Await | Game Over

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul | Gilbert Arenas Joins Max and Rich, an NBA Game 7, and the Knicks Await | May 29, 2026

Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul are joined by NBA legend Gilbert Arenas (Agent Zero), diving deep into the state of the NBA during playoff season. The hosts and their guest dissect the significance of NBA Game 7s, analyze the Spurs-Thunder matchup, assess the New York Knicks’ title prospects, and examine evolving basketball culture—both on and off the court. Arenas also opens up about his own career, ring culture, his innovative approach to sports media, and insights on raising elite athlete children. The discussion is candid, irreverent, and rich with basketball IQ and storytelling.

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Gilbert Arenas: Ahead of His Time

Background and Anecdotes

• Rich Paul recalls early days with Gilbert Arenas, marveling at his unpredictability and ability to hang out all night, then drop 40 points the next day (02:27).
• Arenas was "the first one tweeting the real," and his honesty and outspokenness on air are compared to Charles Barkley’s (03:01).
• He was an offensive prototype: “Pre-Steph… he was getting a lot of threes up for that time and a lot of threes from a couple steps over half court” (03:41).
• Noted for his eccentricities, like playing NBA games in Dolce & Gabbana shoes: “One day he’s playing in Dolce and Gabbanas. I’m like, what is he? This guy is crazy.” (04:03)

Arenas on His NBA Influence

• Arenas describes how his unique role in early-2000s Golden State allowed him to pioneer the high-volume, high-range three: “I was fortunate to be drafted to a team that didn’t have a big man you had to throw the ball to... So it became us” (39:13).
• Max observes: “I never think of you as a point guard. I think of you as a scorer.” Arenas: “I was today's guard” (40:46).
• On his legacy: “I think everyone gave their credit to Allen Iverson... but the numbers say it all. How many more zeros are there than any other number?” (41:10)

Memorable Quote

“He will say what he thinks and let the chips fall.” — Max Kellerman on Gilbert Arenas (03:01)

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Game 7 Deep Dive: Spurs vs. Thunder

Breaking Down the Matchup

• Max and Rich focus on the tension and stakes of an NBA Game 7: “Best two words in sports are game seven.” (12:48)
• Rich draws boxing parallels for playoff resiliency: “You may lose a fight, but if your mom’s out there, damn, I can’t lose, man. I got this.” (08:03)
• Discussion centers on youth, culture, and physicality—both franchises as models of draft and development success.

Key Insights

• Both the Spurs and Thunder have built strong cultures; players aren’t worried about individual stats but about winning (13:02).
• Wembanyama’s unique impact is highlighted—his minutes management, fatigue, and defensive presence (15:10, 53:00).
• Game tactics: Gilbert describes how guards like SGA “neutralize” aggressive defenders by drawing fouls strategically to affect matchups and flow (45:12).

Arenas’ Prediction

• Arenas picks the Thunder due to “the experience of understanding tight situations. The experience of OKC is going to win the game” (50:16).
• Max favors the Spurs due to Wembanyama’s rest and overall matchup dynamics (30:41).

Memorable Exchange

Max: “You can’t go out like a punk. You gotta at least leave it all.”
Rich: “That’s why series are odds and not evens. Someone has to win Game 7.” (08:52)

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The Knicks’ Finals Chances

Knicks Roster & Identity

• Max asserts: “This Knicks team starting five is the best starting five of my lifetime.” (31:03)
• Discussion about key injuries (Mitchell Robinson’s broken pinky) and how he impacts the Knicks’ defensive schemes (32:23).
• Both agree this may be the Knicks’ year: “I think the Knicks beat whoever comes out of the West.” — Max (33:35)

Key Stats

• Max reads off Jalen Brunson's playoff fourth quarter points, leading the league for five seasons straight: “Jalen Brunson… has been phenomenal and he is, especially on the Knicks, the focal point of the defense.” (60:41–61:09)

Notable Quote

“He was already good. He’s at a level now where he’s like, he’s—Matt, I can’t even describe it.” — Gilbert on Jalen Brunson’s growth (61:10)

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The Flopping Debate: SGA, Wemby, and Officiating Controversies

The SGA Flopping Narrative

• Max addresses going viral for saying Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (SGA) is the league’s biggest flopper, but puts blame on refs and league incentives: “If the league is going to reward you for doing something and you don’t do it, you’re leaving money on the table.” (26:42–27:26)
• Rich and Gilbert agree flopping is increasingly analytics-driven, and Gilbert breaks down the art of ‘foul baiting’, comparing it to chess (45:10–47:54).
• Consensus: The onus is on officiating to enforce the rules and discourage selling calls.

Discussion on Officiating and Evolution

• Gilbert explains how advanced players study both referees and defender habits to manipulate calls: “Great offensive players started studying referees. All right, you have to be here. You’re here. Baseline guy is here... So if I pull up, which ref sees that?” (47:46)
• Max: “The NBA more than tanking… what—who knows what the solution is?… But this foul merchant thing, they got to address this.” (49:20)

Memorable Quote

“I learned the basketball game from film watching... You started learning techniques of: I cross you, put the hand, I pull up. Look, ref, foul, right?” — Gilbert Arenas (46:44)

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Ring Culture, Player Legacies, and Titles

What Makes a True Superstar?

• Extended debate on “ring culture,” championships, and how to assess NBA greatness.
• Arenas: “Ring culture is not real. It was never real. When you go back into the 80s and 90s, right, there was no ring culture… Jordan only had two rings. He was the best player that ever walked” (69:04–70:01).
• Max distinguishes the “eyeball test” (talent) from the “chip count” (validation), noting “MJ was Wilt and Bill Russell” — both in talent and in collecting titles (70:10).
• Rich and Gilbert discuss “sidekick rings” versus “lead dog” rings, using Scottie Pippen and Steph/KD as case studies (78:05).

On Steph, KD and Superstar Hierarchies

• Max: “Steph Curry in 2022 finally had the year where he was the best player in the world… To me, if you take 2022 away, I don’t think of Steph the same way” (80:52).

Memorable Exchange

“If I said, give me your top 10 movies, you’re not gonna say, oh number nine, or number eight, and then you just throw a whole bunch of negative campaigns.” — Gilbert on negative criticism of all-time greats (94:51)

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Parenting and Player Development

Raising a Hooper: Arenas’ Perspective

• Gilbert shares his philosophy on developing elite-level athletes, emphasizing adversity: “Put them in situations that’s designed for them to fail… Put him on the worst AAU team where he’s gonna purpose to get picked on just cause that” (119:18).
• Reflects on nurturing his son Elijah’s career, noting how top NBA dads (Bron, Carmelo, CP3) often can’t give their kids as much hands-on development because they’re still playing (112:19).

Memorable Moment

“If you have a child who achieves on your level, that might be in the history of sports, I’d say… that you’re competing with Archie Manning with his sons. Right. In the NFL, what other father ever achieved on a certain level… and the son also reached at least that level?” — Max Kellerman (113:44)

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Gilbert Arenas on the Media Game

From Player to New Media Mogul

• Arenas discusses how he carved his own media path, riding early social platforms and player-first unfiltered sports commentary: “I realized that a player talking about what they did unfiltered, had an audience. Right?” (87:54)
• On podcast model and brand building: “When my contract’s up [with Underdog], I own 100% of Gil’s Arena” (124:19).
• On why player-led shows are thriving: “People love the banter of ex-players, and then you need the structure of it” (122:32).

Memorable Quotes

“You have passengers. We call them the fans. Then you have stewardess. We call it media… But you’re not the pilot.” — Gilbert describing ex-players vs. media analysts (88:36)

“If you watch Charles Barkley… you get the sense that he says to you in public what he will say to you behind closed doors… and you give me that same feeling.” — Max to Gilbert (91:38)

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Noteworthy Quotes & Moments (w/Timestamps)

• On Game 7 Resilience:
  “It’s like fighting in front of your mom when you was a kid. You may lose a fight, but if your mom’s out there, damn, I can’t lose, man.” — Rich Paul (08:03)

• On Drafting for Need:
  “But they may say, oh, we can’t take that guy at 7. Why can’t you take that guy 7 if that’s what you need?” — Max Kellerman (19:22)

• On Bench Strength in the Playoffs:
  “It’s the bench that you need where I can sub in... The bench put it up to 20. Sit down.” — Gilbert Arenas (107:57)

• On Ring Culture Illusions:
  “You need a body of work first. Give me your body of work and then if two people are tied, then let’s add rings.” — Gilbert (76:34)

• On Player Honesty:
  “If I don’t like you today because you did something that I don’t like, I will say it. If you do something tomorrow that I like, I’m gonna say it.” — Gilbert (92:19)

• On Father-Son Sports Success:
  “I got to personally train my kids four or five hours a day, every single day.” — Gilbert (113:44)

• On Incentivizing Flopping:
  “If the league is going to reward you for doing something and you don’t do it, you’re leaving money on the table.” — Max Kellerman (27:26)

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Final Thoughts

The episode exemplifies the best of player-driven, open conversation about basketball on and off the court, covering technical analysis, culture, legacy, and the evolution of player media platforms. Gilbert Arenas brings unfiltered player perspective, challenging assumptions about greatness, development, and representation in basketball dialogue—while Max and Rich keep the banter flying and the stakes clear as the NBA’s best prepare to enter history in another Game 7 classic.

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• Gilbert Arenas background/humor: 01:20–04:20
• Spurs-Thunder Game 7 preview: 07:45–19:01
• Knicks Finals prospects/Jalen Brunson: 31:03–34:58; 60:41–62:43
• SGA flopping debate/officiating: 25:19–28:32; 45:03–49:20
• Arenas’ legacy and NBA career: 36:45–43:34
• Ring culture/debates on player greatness: 68:14–78:05
• Parenting athlete children: 109:15–119:49
• Gilbert on new media/sports podcasting: 84:08–126:37

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For basketball diehards or culture-watchers, this episode is both an education and an entertainment essential—whether you root for the Knicks, revere the Spurs, or question who really belongs on the NBA’s Mount Rushmore.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Max. Yes, I'm excited about today's show. Let me tell you why. I'm excited about every show. Yes, but today we have Gilbert Arenas coming on. And we all know Gil. I don't know which Gil we're gonna get. I really don't know which Gil we're gonna get. I've been around this, man. Shit. I've been around Gilbert. I don't know, man. I stopped counting. I'll say this, I've been around him so long, he had no kids. That's how long I've been around.

[A]

What's he up to now?

[B]

Four, I believe. Three or four. One's in the second year in college.

[A]

Yeah, one in college. He's good. One's going to be a high draft pick.

[B]

Exactly. So imagine that. And even then, Gil used to get off the plane in Cleveland and they'll get to the Ritz Carlton. I think they were sent to Ritz then. Yeah, Ritz. Or maybe the Marriott, Whatever, whichever one it was. And he would come to me and Mav's apartment because Mav and I had had a place downtown at the Reserve Square. And he would just stay. It was unbelievable. Like, literally stay all night.

[A]

Go to shoot around and drop 40.

[B]

Yeah, it was unbelievable. There was a few guys that did this. AI would do this, Gilbert would do this. BD would do this. Sometimes. Just depends. I don't know why they like to come to our apartment. Well, I do know why he liked to come to our apartment. It was just like a big hangout and then we would go to dinner, go out from there, whatever. But I'm excited for Gil to come.

[A]

Gil was ahead of his time as

[B]

a player, very ahead of his time as a player and ahead of his time as someone on these platforms.

[A]

Yeah, he's real.

[B]

Remember, he was the first one tweeting the real.

[A]

Yeah. And listen, he. He has what I think all former players who really succeeded on air had have. Like Charles Barkley is the perfect example. He is not scared to tell you what he thinks. Gil will say what he thinks and let the chips fall.

[B]

And I think he also has the ability to speak about anything and all things because, yeah, he didn't win a championship, but he was a real player and he gave everybody 30, 40, 50. He had the respect from all guys. Nobody could talk to him in a matter as if he was not a guy.

[A]

Pre Steph, you know how like I'll always bring up Pitino when it comes to the revolution in basketball because the bomb squad on the Knicks, Pitino's like, yeah, shoot, get those threes up. But Gil was the same thing. Like pre Steph, he was getting a lot of threes up for that time

[B]

and a lot of threes from couple steps over half court.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And the other thing he did, which was crazy, he played in any type of shoe. One day he's playing in Dolce and Gabbanas. I'm like, what is he? This guy is crazy.

[A]

Agent 0.

[B]

Agent 0. So excited for Gil. But Max. Yeah, we got a game seven on our hands.

[A]

We got a game seven between at least who we thought most of the season were the two best teams in basketball. Now we know they're two of the three best teams and we called it

[B]

to be a game seven.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So let's talk about the game seven in front of us. Let's talk about the Knicks.

[A]

And by the way, if you want to leave a voicemail, we're not going to do voicemails and emails today. We got Gil coming up. We're going to do a show and we got Gil coming up. But if we don't have a guest, we take your voicemails and emails. 4242-4083-4124-8341 in game [e-mail] I think the

[B]

voicemails, Max, and the emails because Monday, since there's no game, the finals doesn't start until Wednesday. We're going to recap it's the anniversary of the 2016 finals.

[A]

That, by the way, we should do a show on that.

[B]

We're going to do it on Monday.

[A]

At least. At least a good chunk of it.

[B]

Yes. But the voicemails and the emails should be focused on questions about the 2016 finals.

[A]

Are you going to peel back the curtain?

[C]

I'm going to pull back the curtain.

[A]

You're going to pull back the curtain and tell us what it was like on that journey?

[B]

Yes. I won't take the curtain off the ride.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I.

[A]

Will you take the curtain off the ride? A lot of people are like this.

[B]

No, but I. Yeah, no, grab a towel or something. That was. That was. The more I think about it, that would be a lot to talk about because just every game was such a. A roller coaster ride.

[A]

It was an epic season.

[C]

I mean, forget about it.

[A]

I flew up to both game Sevens in the Western Conference finals and in the finals just as a fan. I didn't want to go as press. I didn't want to press pass and all that. I just wanted to be able to watch it as a fan. You know, bought flew up because I knew both those game Sevens were going to be historic. Like very few that could be cool.

[B]

Let's do that. Let's do that on Monday. And voicemails and emails should be focused on that.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Okay, let's.

[A]

All right, let's start the show. Game over is brought to you by FanDuel. Conference finals are here. Thinking of how it's going to go down. Take your shot with FanDuel and get closer to the action. FanDuel is the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 and over in select states 18 and over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincut. You know what's crazy about this series so far? Rich is and Jacoby said this to me the other day and he's right. It's two different series. It's who the home team is a completely different team. Now I understand that from the spurs point of view because they're a young team. Their best players, 22, they have two other players who are very young. All three taken high in the draft and a young team, you might expect to play differently at home and on the road. But then again, the Thunder are pretty young team too. Not as young as the spurs, but they are also.

[B]

They're still pretty young and. But look, each team won one on the road.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

They won one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes, they did.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Spurs won the first one on the road and the Thunder one game.

[A]

But the last three games have been like, this team looks like Jekyll and Hyde.

[B]

Well, well, when you're in a seven game series like this, think about it from a boxing perspective. You're trying to the resilience that you now have where it's not about being great at home, it's about we cannot lose this game at home. We've already, we've already allowed them to win one here on the Thunder end. The spurs have already won one there. So as each of those two teams go back home, you know, it's like, it's like fighting in front of your mom when you was a kid. You may lose a fight, but if your mom's out there, damn, I can't lose, man. I got this. I got, I got. You know, and you may be fighting somebody twice your size, but it's just that, that, that resilience that you have to have. And I think that's what we're seeing.

[A]

You can't go out like a punk. You gotta at least leave it all.

[B]

Well, guess what? That's why games are series are odds and not evens. Someone has to win game seven. It's not going down even if you lose.

[A]

It's got to be that. Remember the Titans line, Like they got to remember the night that they played you. And when you think about the teams that have lost, like this is the reason for so many years when people were like, Steph is one of these the greatest point guard ever? I was like, oh, until 2022. I need to see you one time, one time be the best player on either team in a finals. You cannot lose a Game 7 at home in the finals. Especially if it's, you know that warriors team in 16 didn't score in the last five minutes of the game. Fourth quarter.

[B]

Yeah, but that was a. You got.

[A]

But what I'm saying, we don't need to. We'll talk about that. But my point is you can't go out like that on your home court in a Game 7 when Harden missed all those threes. And it wasn't just Harden, it was the whole Houston Rockets team when they were down CP3.

[B]

Yeah. Analytics failed that.

[A]

Or you can't, you can't, by the way. Or hit a couple of those shots. You can't. That can't happen on your home court. Like the Thunder are the defending champs. They're more experienced. Yes, they're a little, they're a little more banged up right now than the Spurs. If you, if they lose that game seven, fine. But they got to go out swinging. It can't be like they lost the game seven.

[B]

Oh, I don't, I don't think it will be, do you? Wait, do you think it's going to be a blowout?

[A]

Not a blowout, but what I mean is you can't go five minutes in the, in the fourth quarter on your home court in game seven without scoring a bucket. Can't be, cannot be. Not when and especially well you can.

[B]

If you're trying to go in there and do layups and wimbys in there, you can go without score. Not that you didn't try to score, you just prevented you from scoring.

[A]

But by the way, this is why when we had the game, you had the game on your phone when we were in Miami and the Nuggets were down two possessions with almost two minutes left in the game. And what I say at the time. Okay, Jokic, here it is. Yeah, you think two possessions, the best player in the game can't over. If you're the best player in the game in a deciding game and it's two minutes left, two possessions, go get it done. Didn't come close.

[B]

Yeah, he's same thing with Steph in

[A]

Game 7 at home in 2016. Point guard, more or less of the greatest half court offense in the history of basketball. 73 win season. Your arch rival, really like the two dominant players, LeBron and Steph. What do you got? Zero points, turnovers. I'm not trying to hear it. Here's SGA. He's forget about all the flopping and all that stuff. I get it. That's not really SGA's fault. That's the league and the ref's fault for allowing him to get away with it. He's going to take what you give him. If he flops and you gets the call, why would he stop? He's smart, right? But here it is, here it is. And players like that I'm a little suspicious of. James Harden had games on the road in the playoffs that he could have won and I remember certain examples of him clearly looking for the call instead of trying to hit the shot. So the shot doesn't go in and he doesn't get the call and he's upset, right? Here it is. Sga, you're at home. You're the defending champ. It's a game seven. Everything's on the line. Get it done. Or if you don't get it done, go out swinging in that fourth quarter.

[C]

Right.

[A]

That's all I'm saying.

[B]

No, listen, I think. Point well taken. I don't think it'll be a blowout. I think both teams are. None of them are fully healthy, as we can see. Harper, Fox, you know, Wemby, you said it. You know, it seems to be. You said he was a little tired the other day. It's a series. I think you're going to be winded, you're going to be wounded, you're going to be mentally drained, all those things. But there's no better position to be in than having an opportunity in a game seven. The best two words in sports are game seven.

[A]

No doubt about it.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

Especially in the NBA, because that is the one sport where you really feel like the best team is going to win. In a game seven, you feel like the best team's going to win. It's been the history of the league.

[B]

And what you're seeing is when I watched the game, I saw, like last night, Vassell had a block on Holmgren. You're seeing, you know, box outs. You're seeing physicality. You're seeing. What this series is showing me is the NBA is in a really good place. And let me tell you why. What's starting to happen on NBA teams as they continue to invest in draft picks, development teams like the Thunder and the spurs are two of the greatest examples of what culture looks like. They're building a winning. Well, they've already built. The spurs have always had a winning culture. The Thunder has now built a winning culture. And you're seeing it in. Guys play. Guys aren't worried about how many points they got, how many shot attempts they have. If they missed a shot, if the guy missed them wide open. You're seeing teams go down by 15. Guys are clapping in the huddle. They're not pointing fingers at anybody. We haven't seen that yet on either side.

[A]

I would like to see. Remember last. Last show we did, I mentioned how I want Wemby to be a little more selfish.

[B]

He was selfish yesterday.

[A]

Yeah, a little more. And I want Chet also to be a little more selfish. Chet has the ability.

[B]

I know about that.

[A]

He gets out of he gets out of games with 10 points in the game.

[B]

Well, well, here's the thing.

[A]

His skill set, size. He should have posed himself a little bit.

[B]

There's a difference between Wimby being selfish and Chet being selfish.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What. What you. What I would say that you're saying height. No, no, but what I would say that you're saying is you would like to see Chet utilize, have a more of a higher usage rate.

[A]

Correct?

[B]

Yeah. Not selfish because.

[A]

But. But selfish in the sense that impose yourself a little bit more sometimes there are guys like. Because I said this about Cat, he

[B]

did that in game five. Yeah. Yes, yes. At home, on the road.

[A]

He didn't. Well, he's back at home and he's young. But my point is that's usually a role player. Chad's not a role player. He shouldn't be.

[B]

No, he's not a role player.

[A]

No, he's. He's. He's like.

[B]

He.

[A]

He's a poor man.

[B]

He's an impact player. Yeah, just an impact.

[A]

By the way, Wemby, I wanted to mention this. First of all, it's great he only played 28 minutes, right. Because he's looked tired when he's played more than that, especially in consecutive games. So the fact that it was a blowout and they rested him the whole fourth quarter, good news for the Spurs. Wemby, when he gets fatigued, and I mentioned this the other day, loses coordination in a way, maybe because he's so big, it's more obvious. Every little bit of lost coordination is magnified. Right. Because his limbs are so long, you could just see it a little bit more. But I don't know why he exposes the ball to the defense at the height that he does so often. He'll do a little move in going to the basket, and he's showing the defense the ball the whole time. Right. Where at his height. At his height, he's like. He should not be exposing the ball to shorter defenders. To the extent that he does what

[B]

you want him to do, run with the ball high in the air. He has to dribble at some point, I guess.

[A]

I think a little less than he does, actually. Once he gets close, like one step, he's at the basket.

[B]

Well, I think, again, you have to give the Thunder some credit. Yes, I have to give the spurs some credit. If. If a guy they got defenders is. Is hard driving and he does a counter and that counters a spin and you come with a late double or you, or you, or you, or you go for the Steal and you get you taking a risk first of all, of course. But if you get it, great. I think the thing I was paying more attention to is yesterday Wemby made, you know, he made a point to slow down as he got into the lane because the Thunder were drawing offensive fouls on him.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So he made a point to slow down, which I thought was pretty profound, just to make that adjustment. Like he would come in the lane and then he would Euro and it's kind of slow so he don't get the charge. And it actually allowed him to take a better shot whether it was or make a better pass. In terms of his decision making, I thought that was pretty good there. And then the other thing I saw, you know, yesterday is the spurs, they ran a play where they kind of had Wimby. We talked about this. I would like to see him in the more side pick and roll actions because that do get him in a position to where he is dribbling less and he's right at the basket. I saw them do that a couple times yesterday. And so look, this is going to be one of those situations where you got two really good young coaches. Really good young coaches. These guys will be coaching forever. I mean, today they just don't want to coach anymore. You have two really good, you know, very well structured teams in terms of rosters. And this leads me to the Western Conference now or the rest of the league for that matter. When you are evaluating your roster today, you have to evaluate it with the mindset that these two teams are going to be here. They're not going anywhere for the next seven years. And with all these new rules and

[A]

implements and they reform the reform draft to stop tanking. You can't have multiple picks at a certain level in consecutive years. You can't have the number one pick two years in a row. The bottom three teams only get. They have a lower chance, fewer ping pong balls in there, the whole thing. All right. I think it's a slightly misguided attempt to legislate or to de. Incentivize tanking. I get that. But like it's going to be harder if you're bad, if you're really bad to get good. And it's going to be also harder for teams chasing the spurs and the Thunder to get over the top.

[B]

But this is why it's going to be even more important for you to evaluate talent properly. Like in the draft, sometimes what happens is a team will have like the seventh pick in the draft and they need this type of player. But they may say, oh, we can't take that guy at 7. Why can't you take that guy 7 if that's what you need?

[A]

Oh, we're not getting value. Yeah. You better just take who you need. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Listen, what we're seeing, size, shooting, iq, willingness to play both sides of the ball, right? You look at a guy like Carter Bryant. Carter Bryant, he's come in, the guy you see as Carter Bryant. You didn't see this guy at Arizona like that, Right. You didn't see him.

[A]

And one thing about the spurs is they got a lot of guys who will play very physical defense.

[B]

And here's another thing, Max, think about this. When you talk about the AAU system and how these kids is being basically ushered through and all the stuff that's being done for them. Wrong in the wrong way. Look at a guy like Carter Bryant. We were at a game and Mitch Johnson went crazy on him.

[A]

Right.

[B]

As if. It looked as if that was Tom Izzo or Bobby Knight or somebody over there in college. Because you can do that more in college than you can in the pro.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

What did you see? You saw Carter Bryant take that in. You saw his teammates console him, come on with it. You saw him be passionate about it to where he had tears in his eyes. Right. And now you see him come back the next few games and play and play to a level that. Is that a rookie. You realize he's a rookie, Right? This is what I'm talking about when I talk about culture. This is what I'm talking about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Those things are important.

[A]

Both teams have that.

[B]

Yes. So if you are evaluating talent, don't talk to me about how many points a guy scored. I don't care about that. Are you willing to do the things that ask for you to be done in the moments that they're asking for them to be done at the highest level, that may not even equate to what you're normally evaluating as it pertains to status or stats.

[A]

Like, meaning it may not help you individually, but it helps the team.

[B]

And here's another thing, and we're dealing with this in real time. I keep trying to tell people, just because you score 18 points a game, that don't mean you're going to get a big contract. Most players. Draymond, I were talking about this yesterday. You get. Most players coming into the NBA, you got to hope to get one big contract. Getting two big contracts is. Is few and far in between. Getting three big contracts, forget about it. You are the. The 1%.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

James. Right.

[B]

Or, or all the guys that have gotten. If you just look at the guys that, I mean, some of them have been extremely situational. Sometimes you can get in a situation like Tobias Harris has done.

[A]

He's done very bad.

[B]

One of the most professional guys I know.

[A]

And everyone, everyone loves Tobias. Buy his ass. But he got a lot of money.

[B]

Yeah, but, but again, what attributed to that size, shooting, professionalism. So when you're bringing a guy like that into your, into your locker room. Yeah. When you look at the Detroit Pistons when they paid me last time. You know why? Because we know we're going to get. And, and we're okay with that because he's not going to upset the Apple car. The. That's one. You can put those guys over there. A KCP is like that as well. Those guys made out, but then the other guys, these are like Kawhi KD at 37. LeBron.

[A]

Best players ever.

[B]

Steph AD. You know, I mean, these guys are, they're the, they're the 1% of the 1%. Everybody in between this idea that if I hit it big, if you get 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 million, okay. In order for you to stay there, you can't.

[A]

You got to play the right way,

[B]

play the right way, be in the right situations, play for the right reasons. There's so many different things. And more importantly, you got to look in that mirror. That's what you got to do more than anything. You have to look in that mirror and understand your positioning. But here's the other thing. Be realistic. If I told you, Max, you know what the MBA minimum is depending on your years of service?

[A]

Two or three.

[B]

Yeah. 28293. You know, whatever it is, you could call it, you could round it up and say it's $3 million. $3. 3. Right. Well, if you are not a full, you know what, the full meal, that level is $13 million.

[A]

It's up to 13.

[B]

Up to $13 million. So if you just break that in half and it's six and a half million dollars. Do you know what you have to do in corporate America to make six and a half million dollars annually?

[A]

There's not even a six and a half. That goes from a couple to. If you're the CEO and you're getting stock options, you know.

[B]

Right. But the CEO isn't making $50 million of a salary.

[A]

Right.

[B]

To CEOs making 8 to 10, maybe 12. And based upon the performance of the business, his bonus or her bonus becomes X and Then if you sit in that seat for 10 years and you. And you've got a $50 million bonus for 10 years, that's your wealth.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Right. But you can sit in that seat for 30 years. You cannot play in the NBA for 30 years.

[A]

Unless LeBron does it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But so seems like it might be up to him, so.

[B]

No, so. So. So going back to game seven, kudos to these two teams. What they are exuding is just so good for the NBA, man. It really is.

[A]

Do you know I mentioned something about Shea flopping the other day? It wasn't even the main point of my. Of what I was saying. I really wanted to talk about how it's one thing to play Wemby the way Hartenstein was playing him, which is physical, and getting away with what you can holding him and stuff like that. And the ref should.

[B]

Simon didn't like you saying about Shay flopping.

[A]

Yeah, right. And. But. But Shep was stepping on his foot. I thought that was dirty in a dangerous way, but I met. But the Shay flopping thing, I think, anyway, this clip did a lot of views and I was. I was like, wondering what's going on. Like, sometimes you say stuff you don't know what. When I said I want Iguodal, I had no idea that that would be on my tombstone one day.

[B]

Well, you're not trying to go viral. It just went viral.

[A]

But who knows?

[B]

7 million views is crazy. But that just means people, maybe they agreed or disagreed with you.

[A]

What I'm getting back is that no one in the mainstream media or who was perceived that way at least was saying it. And now everyone's saying it. Right. About Shay flopping. But do you think Shay flopping is like, have the Thunder partly because they're defending champs. Right. They've been there already. The spurs at the upstart. Partly because Wemby is kind of the face of the league or about to be. And he's this very unusual player. And the spurs are kind of easy to root for. Are the Thunder now the heavies. Are they the villains in the story here?

[B]

Yeah, I think the flopping debate has kind of. The Thunder can't really be villains. It's like when the spurs were. It was hard to play the spurs because Tim Duncan was just such a nice guy. Like, you can't.

[A]

But the difference is in this case, they're like, it's not the. It's not the. This. It's the league's fault, not the. I want to be very clear when I. If if it's perceived as me going at Shea for flopping. Oh, he's. He flops, period. He flops, and it's obvious. And he flops more than anyone else. There are other floppers in the league. He flops the most. But that's called being smart. If the league is going to reward you for doing something and you don't do it, you're leaving money on.

[B]

Well, you have to imagine that the Thunder has, I don't know how many people they have in their front office or in their development team. I imagine they probably have 80 people knowing them. And so if you're doing analytics on how to draw files and during the course of a game and different scenarios and situations, and you're doing all the numbers and the data and the research on these things, it could be a part of your development, understanding how to draw files.

[A]

But that's why it's not on the Thunder. It's on the league and the refs. There's a rule on the books. If the ref believes you're flopping, then you get a. It's a technical. It's not an unsportsmanlike technical. Right. The guy's not going to get ejected. But they're supposed to be calling that. And Rich with the naked eye. Nine times out of ten, anyone sitting in their living room knows when someone's flopping immediately in real time. Right? Come on, man. Just, just, just blow the whistle when you. If someone goes like this, that they're flopping aside.

[B]

Flopping aside. Do you think Shay has. Has looked to self lately?

[A]

No, they're defending him very well.

[B]

You think it's because of the defense?

[A]

Yeah. And they got some studs on defense on that team.

[B]

They do. They do.

[A]

Do you think? So you think Shai's been playing up to his standard?

[B]

Well, I. Look, first of all, the man makes the toughest shots. He makes tough shots. He did it. Yes. I mean, he makes tough, tough shots. One on Wemby, but they're also making it tough. So you can't stop a guy like Shay. All you can do is make it tough on him. And I think the spurs have done a phenomenal job of making it tough. And game seven, they have to make it the toughest. But, you know, you don't supposed to look yourself. I was watching, by the way. I was watching the finals game the other day. Or was it the, The. The Eastern conference finals, and MJ didn't look himself. He was like 8 for 24 or something like that. But MJ.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But he's had games. Everyone's had games. Like, of course, never had a bad series. Ever. Yes, listen. And no one in the history of basketball got.

[B]

I don't think Shea is having a bad series.

[A]

I'm not comparing Shade to Michael Jordan. It's not fair. But he's not having a bad series. But I would say he's not dominating

[B]

the series like you would think he normally does. But also, it's about Matt, which is why I keep going back to size. Look what they're doing. If he's not seeing Castle, he's seeing Brian, he's seeing Johnson. And then when he does switch off to a Vassell or a Fox, people don't realize how strong de' Aaron is.

[A]

De' Aaron Fox was.

[B]

And how. And how crafty he is when it comes to.

[A]

He defends his position. You can't put him on a million different positions. But de' Aaron Fox defends his position, and that goes back to college. I always bring this up. The Lonzo ballgame. Not just that De' Aaron almost went for 40. On one side, he held Lonzo to 10, 12 points, whatever it was. On the other, like, he's not just a defender of his position, but a clutch defender. Meaning in the moment of truth, you can rely on him.

[B]

Max, who wins game seven?

[A]

I like the Spurs.

[B]

Like the Spurs.

[A]

I like the spurs on the road.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. I think Wemb. I think the key is Wemby played under 30 minutes. It really helped them that he got to sit that whole fourth quarter. And I like the spurs on the. I like them since the middle of the season.

[B]

Yeah, you did. You've been with the Spurs. Do you feel good about your Knicks?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I. But you know what else I told. I said on. It's either on this show, maybe I said it on Bill's pod. This Knicks team starting five is the best starting five of my lifetime.

[B]

I told you that, Max.

[C]

No, no, I told you that.

[B]

I just said it.

[A]

That's my thing.

[B]

I've been saying. No, I said this Knicks team would beat any.

[A]

I'm not saying. We're saying two different things. I agree with that also, by the way, what I'm saying is this is

[B]

the best starting five.

[A]

The starting five, if you look. Because, like one through five. Because Ewing, by the time they got Houston and Sprewell was in decline. When Ewing was in his prime, the best team they put around him was his second best scorer was John Starks, who. John Starks should have been a fantastic sixth man. And he was, but then he was forced into a starting role because they didn't have Alan Houston at the time. Right. Or Latrell Sprewell at the time. And you know, Charlie Ward, Heisman Trophy winner. Right. He's a good NBA player, but he was not an All Star caliber player. Ewing never played with another All Star scorer. Oakley, you could say, was an all Star caliber player at his position, but was not a scorer. Had an automatic 15 footer, but was not really a scorer.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Um, Anthony Mason could run points, sort of, but from the forward position, but also not a scorer.

[B]

So. So Mitchell Robinson has a broken pinky.

[A]

That's big.

[B]

He plans to play, though.

[A]

Yep. That, no, that's, that's a big shot for the Knicks to take because even though he's actually their sixth man, you don't think of him that way. But he's, he's the guy who should see the most time off the bench.

[B]

He impacts the game. He's the, he, he's the mip. He's the most impactful player on the floor.

[A]

He's unbelievable.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And the fact that he can defend the way he can in all aspects of defense against either team that comes out of the West, Mitch Robinson is going to be incredibly important for them defensively.

[B]

So you're saying the spurs comes out.

[A]

I think so.

[B]

On game seven. Should the Knicks be rooting for the spurs to win game seven?

[A]

Probably. Probably.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Because they've beaten them twice in the regular season, including on a neutral site with something at stake. Because they came within a possession of beating them at San Antonio. Because, because you mentioned even though the Thunder are really down, Jalen Williams, the Spurs are nicked up in certain ways that could help the Knicks. But I got to tell you, I think, I think the Knicks beat whoever comes out of the West.

[B]

You think so?

[A]

I think so. I think so.

[B]

You think this is the next year?

[A]

I think it's the Knicks year.

[B]

Will you go to a game? Kind of have to.

[A]

Yeah. We gotta go. I think we, we gotta go.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you definitely have to go.

[A]

I mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. Like, I, I have very mixed feelings about it.

[B]

How can the Knicks be in the finals and Max Kellerman don't go? Yeah, you were, you were, you were.

[A]

Because I jumped ship. Because I jumped ship when I came out here, you know.

[B]

Jump what ship?

[A]

Knicks ship. I, I, I disavowed the Knicks.

[B]

Everybody did.

[A]

No, but me, differently. I really started, you know, how many

[B]

Knicks fans I'm seeing that has season tickets at other arenas that just, you know, like. But at. At heart, you're a Knicks fan.

[A]

Nothing wrong with that. My brother used to have. My late, great brother Sam used to have a great expression. The time to criticize the fat person is not when they get home from the gym with the sweaty wristbands, right? Like, if the fat person comes back from the gym and they got the sweaty wristbands, you're not like, hey, you're not doing the right thing. Cause they just. They just put in the work. So I know this is not the time, but Knicks fans, as excited as they are, should feel a certain kind of way about the fact that you wait 53 years for one chip. It's like this doesn't make up for 53 years. They gotta be a powerhouse for the next 10, 20 years. They need to win multiple chips to make it up. No, no, no, no, no.

[B]

Max, let's focus on the now, okay?

[A]

See, that's what I'm saying. Let's focus on my brother's express.

[B]

Let's focus on the now. I think Gilbert's here.

[A]

Max, he's here.

[B]

I think so.

[A]

Let's get him.

[B]

Let's get him.

[A]

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[B]

Well, Max.

[A]

Yeah. We got Agent Zero, as I discussed.

[B]

Agent Zero is here.

[A]

I see that.

[B]

And Gil, I was just before you got here, I just kind of was telling him about our relationship. And I said, I've been knowing Gil so long, he had no kids. Like, not one at all. Yeah, I did get an invite to his million dollar birthday party. I don't know if you know about this.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

Yes, Gilbert had a million dollar birthday party at club love in D.C. and I was on the invite list he sent. The invite was a black card, like an American Express black card. And when you get there, normally where you would pull up in front of the. There's no pulling up.

[A]

You got to swipe the car.

[B]

No, no. You couldn't even get down the street. The red carpet was as long as La Cienega. You could not even get down the street. He took the whole club over. But we're talking leading up to this. He's like, rich. You don't even understand what I'm about to do. The guy don't drink. I could even. I'm like, okay, I get here. It's going to be cool. Gil, he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You don't trust me on this. And I'm talking to some of the girls that's kind of doing the sponsorship and all that. They like, this thing is going to be out of control. I'm Johnny on the spot. Get there early, got my look on. I get there, it's already packed, right? So anyway, long story short, I was just telling him how you would come to Cleveland and you would come to our apartment at the Reserve, and he wouldn't leave. And the guy gets to shoot around. I'm like, there's no way Gil gonna play well tonight. The man got 41.

[A]

It's like an MJ thing.

[B]

And, you know, LeBron lived next door. So Mav and I lived on the 23rd floor. Mav and I lived in 23L or whatever. LeBron lived in 23M. And so Gil comes there, we just hanging literally all night, and then the guy goes the next day and. And drop 41.

[C]

I was. I was the Drake rollout.

[A]

Before the Drake rollout, you were. Actually, we were talking about this before you got.

[B]

He was you.

[A]

You were also like. Like, there's some people who get credit for revolutionizing things. Steph deserves it, right? And Mark Jackson gave him the freedom to do that. And all that stuff. But. And I talk about this, like with Rick Pitino, who started with the bomb squad before d' Antoni ever went to seven seconds and less. And then that led to the. But you were kind of ahead of your time. Like you were taking threes and taking them from distance and getting a bunch of them up really. Before other guys were doing that.

[C]

Yes. I was fortunate to be drafted to a team that didn't have a big man you had to throw the ball to. So Antoine Jamerson. Yeah, right. Yeah. So Antoine Jamerson was the star player, which. He was like a hybrid 3, 4, played on the outside.

[B]

Very, very. You know, his game.

[C]

Yeah, it was weird. It was a pick and pop. So it was an extended four. But he didn't play big like a four on defense, but on offense he was. He was a mismatch. So what ends up happening is once I came, then you had Jason Richardson and Troy Murphy, so they kind of like put Troy at the 4, which he extended, and you had Antoine Jameson at the 3. So we had a perimeter game, lot of space, so we didn't have to worry about throwing the ball into the big man. So it became us. So I didn't have to play traditional point guard.

[B]

And it was a run and gun. Run and gun already in Golden State from the previous year. So in Golden State, what seems to be a bad shot everywhere else is a good shot there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So now he's taken. Naturally, he's developed this mentality of I'm taking walk off threes. And when he got to Washington, same thing.

[C]

I got put into the Princeton where there's no guard. Right, Right. So I was the same offense as Sacramento Kings.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So I'm like. Kind of like the Mike Bibby. Right. You know, same coach, Eddie Jordan.

[A]

I never think of you as a point guard.

[B]

No.

[A]

I think of you as a scorer.

[C]

Yeah. So I was. I was today's guard. Yeah, right.

[A]

Averaging about more or less 30 points a tick. Under 30 for at least, what, three seasons.

[C]

And that's.

[B]

Yeah, that's back then in Dolce and Gabbanas.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Do you ever. Do you ever feel like you don't get enough credit or people don't mention the fact that you would. That you were maybe the prototype of the player that came later.

[C]

Yes. I think everyone gave their credit to Allen Iverson, even though they moved him to the two and put a traditional point guard there.

[A]

Right.

[C]

But the number says it all. How many more zeros are there than any other number? Because the idea of Ball hogging didn't apply to me, but for some reason it applied to, like, Marbury and Franchise because they had big men like throw the ball to the big man. Because I didn't have that. I didn't get labeled with that.

[A]

That's interesting.

[B]

That's very.

[C]

So, you know, even though they were more traditional point guards than me, they was considered ball hogging.

[A]

So do you feel like you shot it better, too? You. You shot it better than both of

[B]

those guys, but do you feel like that slowed them down in a sense, having to dump it into the big man because they still scored?

[A]

Iverson didn't really.

[C]

No, Iverson.

[B]

Iverson didn't have that.

[C]

I think Mulberry was. He was. He got the bad press because what he was versus what he had right.

[B]

When he was in Minnesota.

[C]

Was in Minnesota. So you're clashing with a guy you got to pass the ball to. So you kind of got that rap just because you clashed with him.

[A]

But I think. No, I think you're shooting like.

[C]

Yeah, I was a better shooter.

[A]

I don't remember the percentage. I'm going to say you were above 35%, though, for which, for. Back then, you probably were getting up eight, at least threes a game, something like that.

[C]

I was getting half of. So we were shooting 14 a game. I was getting half of them.

[A]

Have them set effortlessly for. Back then, getting up six, seven, eight threes a game and hitting over 35% was a big deal. You shot it well.

[B]

Gil, how are you looking at this final series? I mean, this Western Conference Finals series?

[C]

You have okc, who's young but very experienced for being a young team. And you have a very talented spurs, who. Who's inexperienced. Right. And every game is very inconsistent to what made them win the first game versus how they're losing. So when they've won, the ball is going to Wimby.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Wimby's taken over. Right. Wimby is attacking a basket using his length and height. Every time they lose, the guards seem to think it's their game and they need to match guard for guard. And Wemby is pushed.

[A]

But isn't that partly because Wemby looks tired on the games they've lost? It looks like Wemby when. Because he's so big, when he gets tired, his lack of coordination. You could see it on tv.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And then what are they supposed to do?

[C]

He's not in the best shape of his life. Of course not. Because he was restricted. He was.

[A]

And he's eight feet tall. His body.

[C]

And when you're talking about LeBron shape, Curry's shape, when you're talking about Giannis shape, it takes seasons to understand how to push your body to that level. He doesn't know that yet.

[A]

And you don't want him to do it now anyway because you don't know what's going to happen to his body. You want to take it, build that up slowly.

[B]

When he mentioned the guard play, I think being around a lot of playoff series, I think those guys will come to realize that it's how the game starts, how it feels flows. There should never be a trip down the floor where Wimy's not really in the action, he's on the floor. That comes with you, right? Because some sometimes you can just get caught up in the game and I think, you know, valuing possessions, valuing, especially in a games, we're going to see this tomorrow in a game seven. This is where when you talk about good shot versus great shot value and possessions, you can't. Like guys like Castle, you cannot pick up a foul 40ft from the basket. Being aggressive, these, when these things, when you get, when you're in the bonus as a team, how do I take advantage of that? When they're in the bonus, you know, how do we not, you know, just so many different things you have to think about.

[A]

But at the same time, the spurs have all these young, very aggressive defenders, which helps them, but could also backfire in a situation.

[C]

It will backfire in a game seven.

[B]

In a game seven though, it is

[C]

gonna backfire in a game seven. Castle will get in foul trouble early because you wanna control the game. And the only way SGA can control the game is making sure I'm gonna neutralize your aggression. Which means the beginning of the game, my job as a guard is to get you one foul, right? So I'm not playing the game normal. See, when people talk about foul baiting, it is chess, right? If you are a great defensive guard, I don't want you disaggressive in the fourth quarter. So the beginning of the game, I'm trying to get a foul on you. So that means I'm doing everything I possibly can to get one foul. Once I get this foul, you neutralize a little bit. If I can get a second one

[B]

on you, you got to sit in boxing. It's like going to the body.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

You're just going to the body. I'm just hitting.

[A]

That's why, like the old days, Phil Jackson or Pat Riley would say something in the press to heighten the referee's awareness of that tactic so that maybe they're not so. So maybe they're not so quick to blow a whistle. And by the way, if the game was being officiated properly, because it's in the books about flopping and about selling calls, and you see someone do this and there's barely contact, that should be a tech on them. They're not going to do it, but it should be.

[C]

Yeah, they've tried it and they've tried to call a whistle, give you technicals, but again, you can't penalize a player for tricking you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Easily fooled.

[C]

Yeah. So I learned the basketball game from film watching. So how I learned the game was, you know, like the VHS back in the day, All Star jams and ankle breakers. So I used to rewind, watch how, like, someone like Tim Hardaway can shake someone. Right? So I. So while I'm watching it, I'm understanding foot placement. Natural habits of I cross you. Your natural habit is to put your hand out there to try to slow me down. Right. So you started learning techniques of I cross you put the hand. I pull up. Look, ref, foul, right? Or I hit you. Your natural reactions hit me back. So I hit away. When you come in, I. I flop it. So what happens is great offensive players started studying referees. All right, you have to be here. You're here. Baseline guy is here. Right. So if I cuff it like a Mulberry used to do. Oh, ref can't see that. Right. So if I pull up, which ref sees that? Okay, this ref. This ref.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

All right, so this ref can't see the bump. So if I come in and bounce out, all he sees is the action. Sure. He doesn't see if those are veteran moves.

[A]

I'll just point out that. You know who didn't have to do that? Michael Jordan. Kobe Bryant. They didn't have to do that.

[C]

They did.

[B]

They did.

[A]

But they did here and there. But it wasn't like an epidemic. Like, the difference is their first priority is to score, and then if they get the call, great. But it flipped, I think, with Harden and now with sga, where it's like, I'm going to get the call, and if I score, great.

[B]

But it wasn't as many voices, it wasn't many people voicing their opinion on these things. When those guys played, they sold calls. There's no question.

[C]

It was this. I slapped my hand. So evolution is the same thing we watch. How does Michael Jordan get his calls? How does Kobe get his calls? Right. You got the pump fake, pump fake, pump fake. Right? So what you started realizing is, okay, the stronger you are, referees expect you to play through it. So the stronger players, no question, don't get the benefit of the doubt.

[A]

Shaq.

[C]

LeBron. LeBron. So what ends up happening is. So I asked the ref, I said, hey, how many actually? If you went through the rule book, how many fouls are there? He said, if we actually called every call but you can't play the game. He said, you can't play the game, never file up. So we only called 25% of the. Of the game.

[A]

So then you sell the call. So you can get.

[C]

So you got to sell your. If you're getting filed every single time, you got to sell your calls.

[A]

The. The NBA more than tanking. See, I know they, they trying to address tanking. I don't think they're doing it well, but they're trying. What. Who knows what the solution is? I'm not saying I have it. I don't know that they have it either. But, but this foul merchant thing, they got to address this.

[B]

Yeah, but tanking. Tanking is a different. Tanking is integrity of the game. Right? The foul situation. Yeah, and. And it's just a. It's just a, A bad look, perception wise, it's not.

[A]

It was boring. No one wants to see someone fru shoot free.

[B]

But there's a difference between the integrity of the game and just that. Perception wise.

[A]

Yeah, with the game, with. It gets dramatic at times. If you, if they really deserve to go to the line. But the game slows down, all the fans can see it. Come on, man. That's not enough contact for you to be on the floor for you to, for you to be doing this. Now you go to the line, all that happens is the game stops coming out.

[B]

But you have the Spurs. You said the spurs is going to win. Who do you think wins game seven?

[C]

Okc.

[B]

You think OKC wins?

[C]

OKC wins game seven. Because the experience of understanding tight situations. Who's been in more game sevens? Right. So what happens every other game? Wimby plays a different game. And I think when it comes down to it, just the aggression of spurs is going to get the best of them. Some of the shots they take is going to get the best of them.

[B]

Well, this is where.

[C]

Right, so the experience. So the experience of OKC is going to win the game.

[A]

Is Wemby the best player in the world?

[C]

No.

[A]

Who's the best player in the world?

[C]

Jokic.

[A]

Okay, Gil, I'm surprised at you

[C]

best player.

[A]

Here's the bottom line, though. Jokic is more of an offensive machine, right? But the defense that Wemby plays is game changing. Jokic plays a smart enough defense. He's not a very good defender, but more than that, Gill, there were two possessions, they were down two possessions with two minutes left in the game. Season on the line. Jamal Murray's neutralized because you got a six foot eight guy defending him, which is. I said that's the key matchup of the series going in. And Jamal Murray's usually a clutch player in the playoffs. Now it's really going to be on Jokic. They're not doubling him because they have an all world defender who's doing most of the work on him. Two possessions in two minutes. You can't bring your team like. And that's happened too much in the playoffs where Jokic is not his best

[B]

self when he needs to be.

[C]

But you're talking about moments of high leverage, moments of a year, right? It's like, you know, having. If you're a rapper, you know, you, you put four CDs out and you got two great songs. That's not enough work to say if it's good or not. So when you're talking about Wimby, Wimby's defense is elite, right? Offense is still learning.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. So offensively you won't rank him one. Defensively, where do you rank, where do you rank him? Offensively, he's top 10. Is he?

[A]

Yeah. Just because he, like what he have last night, 28 points in 28 minutes

[C]

if he plays to his offensive ability. Now you're talking about somebody like Giannis. Giannis is going to rank top five in both categories, Right. Shay is going to be both top 10 in both his categories. So as of right now, Wemby's not the best player in the world, but he's trending.

[A]

Look at his plus minus. When he's off the floor, he's off the court. They are not a good team. Okay. Last night notwithstanding, but usually they, you know, they're minus whatever, 15, whatever it is. It's crazy. Throughout the playoffs when he's on the court, they're beating the brakes off because

[C]

that's the defensive side offensively.

[A]

But that's. But it's. But all in all, it counts.

[C]

It counts. It does count.

[B]

We talked about it.

[C]

But when you're talking about the best player, you're talking about both sides of the court. And what Jokic brings offensively is what Wemby brings defensive, right? I Can. You can watch it all.

[A]

But what Wemby brings offensively is not what Jokic brings defensively.

[B]

True.

[A]

And Wemby has this thing so far that I've seen in him where in the moment of truth, he can be his best self. We'll see. I mean, a little early because game seven coming up on the road. These are the moments I've not seen that from Jokic's.

[B]

These are the moments that's going to allow us to see what you guys are arguing. If Wimby comes out of here tomorrow a winner.

[A]

You're right.

[B]

And pushes his team to the finals, obviously he's going to have to have a great defensive game and you're going to have to have a great offensive game. I think the pressure is not on the spurs, but this is where a guy. What he talked about evaluating possessions. This is why you go and get a guy like dear Fox.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm not. You know, obviously we're talking without Fox

[A]

on the floor there a different team.

[B]

But what I'm saying, because he's going to bring that calmness in a game seven, the pressure is not on the spurs. Not at all. And in normally a situation like this, you expect the role players of the home team to actually play better. But in a game seven, it actually goes the other way where those jump shots get a little bit more tense. So this is going to be a very interesting think about the fact, though,

[A]

guys, that they're in a game seven on the road against defending champs. Right. They what? What don't the spurs do well with the Aaron Fox compromised? They have a lot of turnovers because they don't really have a point guard. You think that's important in the playoffs. And they don't shoot it well yet they're in a game seven against the defending champs. Know why Victor Wembanyama, like, if you. He takes. He takes a team with two fundamental flaws that should have had them eliminated a long time ago. And they might. They might be in the finals.

[B]

Here's the thing. It's not. Go ahead.

[C]

No, no. Because defensively what he does great is exactly what OKC does great. They want to rim run. They want to drive. That's.

[A]

He takes that away.

[C]

So he takes away their bread and butter. So now you force them to take jumpers, which that's not what they want to do. They want to do that secondary. I come so into the lane right now you're running to the lane. I get to shoot my jumper. So now when you're guarding Sga I know you don't. I know you can't go there. So I can keep. I can stay on you. I don't have to turn my hips and run with you. I can just keep sliding knowing you're gonna pull up and they got like

[A]

guys like Castle and Harper and guys.

[C]

So I can just keep body on you. And I know I can challenge because Wemby's back there. So I can be so aggressive on your jumper. If you fake me and go under Wemby's back there.

[A]

Gilbert Arenas is setting the odds for. For the Finals. Should the Knicks be favored in the Finals?

[C]

Depending on who they're playing. If they're playing okc, they won't be

[A]

so underdogs against okc. Favorite against Spurs.

[C]

Yes, because. Slightly favored because the problem with them against Knicks is their four or five are shooters. So now Wenby can't protect against Brunson's. You know what Brunson's going to do. So now he's stuck on a perimeter of OG and Cat the whole time

[A]

and they can slow him down and

[C]

they're going to just sit there and run with him. It's going to be. It favors the Knicks a little bit. But again, what you can't factor in is someone who just dominates one side of the court. And because he just dominates defensively, that changes odds. It's like Steph Curry and Clay. You can't predict them coming down, shooting 35 footers randomly and going. Going three in a row. Like you don't predict that.

[B]

That's what used to kill. I mean, they would be down 12 and then they scored nine points in a minute. But these two teams. We were talking about a GIL. These two teams has hit in the draft on their draft pick. Presti hit on Jalen. Jalen, he hit on Wallace and he hit on Holmgren and A.J. mitchell, for that matter. Yeah, the spurs hit on Ca. How Castle went. Come on, man. The spurs hit on Castle. They've hit obviously. Wimby. I think they hit on Wimby.

[A]

Yeah, but you can't. You don't hit on Wemby or Chet because like if they're there, you can go.

[B]

But still they had to pick to pick the guys. They hit on them. Carter, Bryant, they hit on.

[C]

Yeah, that was a good one.

[B]

Harper, how do you get. They trade for de' Aaron and you get the number two pick and you get. But here's the thing. They trade for de' Aaron and they get the number two pick and have the willingness to take Harper Most people in that mindset.

[A]

Oh, we already got that. Yeah.

[C]

Yep, Yep.

[B]

Nuh. So now when you talk about if the Knicks play the spurs, you talk about those. Those. The four or five action. Now, you can take a Carter Bryant, plug him into the starting lineup, because you have this winning culture. If you have to bring someone off the bench that's normally been starting like a Champagne or whatever the case may be, he understands. He's not taking it personal. It doesn't affect your locker room, which you've been in plenty locker rooms, to understand how when you in a coach's meeting and you look up on that board and you've been starting for 90% of the season, and now the coach says, you know what, Gilbert, you're out. Max, you're in. How you react to that could have an effect on this entire series. That's where I believe these two teams, the way they're positioned is a step above because of those little things. It's not going to be.

[A]

The Knicks are kind of like that, too.

[B]

Same thing.

[C]

No, you will hope spurs players don't take that personal.

[B]

I think they won't.

[C]

You'll be surprised, because sometimes, like.

[B]

But here's why I say that. Did you see what happened with Carter Bryant and Mitch Johnson when he had him on the sideline and he was like. He was telling them it was a misassignment on the defensive end, and he was telling them something, and the players consoled him. The young man had tears in his eyes because he cared. The last. The next three games he's played well. You see him. So this is why I'm saying I don't believe so, because I believe that everyone's sacrificing, you know, that going into the spurs, how could you not sacrifice when Ginobili came off the bench?

[C]

Yeah, but a rookie sacrifice versus a guy who's been there and he's been, you know, but you're not. You're not Iguodala.

[B]

But again, Champagne was cut from the Sixers. He said in a press conference, where he said, man, I'm so glad they cut me because I landed to the

[A]

spurs and they got a lot of interchangeable parts. You mentioned the guards, but Champagne, Vassell, Johnson,

[C]

they got a lot of pieces that they can run. But at the end of the day, it's still. You're still playing against a group who understands who they are.

[B]

No, the Knicks have been playing.

[A]

I want to read you guys a stat. I want to read you guys a stat of any team leaders in fourth quarter. Playoff points over the last five years. This is Michael Hoffman. I'm getting this from, I think off Instagram. I took a screen grab.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

2021. This is fourth quarter playoff points. 2021. Jalen Brunson. Of course, 2022 Jalen Brunson.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is the playoffs, not just the Knicks or the Mavs.

[B]

23.

[A]

23 Jalen Brunson. 24. Jalen Brunson. 25. Jalen Brunson. Yeah, he's been phenomenal and he is, especially on the Knicks, the focal point of the defense. And he is leading the league in fourth quarter playoff points.

[C]

Who does?

[B]

Jalen Brunson.

[A]

And by the way, they didn't get to the finals. He has fewer games to do it in.

[B]

Who does he remind you of? Jalen Brunson. The guy has gotten so good. He was already good. He's at a level now where he's like, he's Matt. I can't even describe it.

[C]

When you look at Jalen Brunson, when you look at Shea, they understand old basketball, meaning this is not free flowing. You don't win free flowing basketball. It goes to your stars and they make every play. Brunson in the fourth quarter makes every play. Either I'm going to score or I'm going to get the assist. Same thing with Shea. Right. So they're still playing the old style of Jordan's going to get. We can run all this stuff over here, but we know where the ball is going to at the end of the shot clock and he's going to make every play. So when you're looking at a team like Brunson, you know where it's going. Can you stop it or not?

[A]

But it's amazing that they can't.

[C]

That's what's crazy, because he has human behavior. Just because you know how to play defense don't mean you can play defense.

[A]

I heard Isaiah say, remember what Becky Hammond said? And I agreed with her when she said it. And I've been saying it. Your best player can't be six feet tall and you win a championship. And Isaiah Thomas came out and said, I just saw this this morning. Yeah, he came out and said, well, she's right. She's right.

[B]

She just forgot about Brunson.

[A]

Could be an outlier. The exception proves the rule.

[B]

No, he could be.

[C]

You know, there's been two players in the last Isaiah, 50 years, Isaiah and Steph.

[B]

We talked about that.

[C]

Yes, Isaiah, six, three.

[A]

Y' all like different.

[B]

You can say that. But still.

[C]

But still a guard, a Guard that's under, let's just say under six, four, right. Leading your team. There's only been two and a half. There's only been two. So what she's saying, she's correct because it's just history. So she's just going off stats.

[B]

She's right.

[A]

Stats. That's why she said, I know the same way.

[B]

But that's why she said if he proves me wrong, he proves me wrong. But do you think what you just described with Brunson and again this is not us interviewing, we just having a conversation. I think that's the difference between

[C]

the,

[B]

the maturation of guards in the NBA. What he's saying that Shay and Jayden under. Because you have, you have talented players and then you have players that understand how to win. Right?

[C]

He's a winner.

[B]

He's a winner. So for as many talented guards that we have, you talked about free flowing. Well, I cannot play the first quarter like I played the fourth quarter in any game and I damn sure can't do it in the playoffs. So now am I playing the game or am I reading the game? Then once I'm reading the game, it allows me to now dictate the game. Once I'm able to dictate the game and I, and, and if I can be, I can dictate the game two ways. Jason Kidd dictate the game for others. You, LeBron similar. You dictate the game for himself and others. You was a guy who dictated the game for self. Right. We knew that. You just hope Gil misses.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And, and the only reason why he didn't make it to the Finals, I believe at least one.

[C]

I don't want to got her subject bad. Just we, we lost pieces that I thought we needed that Jerry Jefferson. We lost. We didn't lose Jerry Jefferson.

[B]

And, and I mean you were in the same conference this with LeBron.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I tried to tell you to play with LeBron. You, you didn't listen to me.

[A]

That would have been a great pairing.

[C]

It was perfect. I was, yeah, it was LeBron like, it was perfect. Like, like I remember when I first watched him and it was, it was at your guys house and he was watching, he was watching different games. Right. And I'm sitting like I study people. So I'm watching him and he's just watching and he's like looking over there. Oh, turn that one on. And I went there, I said, yo, he studies everything. So he's consuming all information. Young people don't do that like that. You don't do that. Like, it's like a fucking iPhone here. He's just consuming. Just so he knows a soccer player in high school, he knows this person out of this country.

[B]

And I'm like, max, I tried to

[A]

get these two guys to play together because LeBron's nature. The reason LeBron scored so much is just because it was in the best interest of the team.

[C]

Because.

[A]

Because he's so talented that why wouldn't he take the high percentage shot or do the thing that will help? But that's not his nature. His nature is pass first.

[C]

Yes. And that's perfect for you. And that's what the argument of him makes no sense when people say he's not a score. Like you're saying the pass first guy leads all scoring. Don't even say anymore because that makes no sense. That these are assassins. Their job is to score. And the guy whose job is to

[A]

pass has more score, kind of incidentally has more scoring.

[C]

Like, you can't stop using that as an argument. But remember, we had to scout. We played him in the playoffs three times, right? I mean, the book was the book, right? We're sitting there looking, all right, all right, we got him this year. What are we going to do? All right, you know what? You know what we're going to do? We're going to cut off all of his pass and let him score 50. 50. He scores 50 and still has the same assists.

[A]

12 assists, right?

[C]

He still has the same. Okay, let's just make him a passer. 14 assists and still 30 points. Like, what are we dealing with here? Like, I spotted it early. Like, he's reading us in real time. Like I told him, I told our coach, we got outsmarted by a youngster. I caught a tail. This was playoff three. We already lost two. And he did something. So he started off the game docile, right? Passing, Passing. Okay, cool. And then he looked at the coach and did one of those. And then the big man got subbed out. Agalskis. So we subbed our big. Terminator came knowing there's no big guy down there. Penalties on Terminator. Terminator. Terminator. 12 straight points. Like, what the. So I'm looking at it. So I went back to our game film one, looking for the sign. We sub. They subbed their big. We sub our big. He takes over.

[A]

It's like some Greg Maddox shit.

[C]

And I'm sitting here like he's dictating when he's ready to go. So he's figured out, okay, the game. He figured out like, he's ready. This guy's hot. Like, he's done puzzled everything and he's

[A]

like, during the regular season, by the way, this is. There's a reel that was going around six months ago about Greg Maddox, how he was. I forgot who it was. Very good hitter in the National League. And he. And he threw him a pitch that, that the guy hit a home run, may have lost the game. And it was to set him up. And he. I think he shook off his catcher and his catch.

[B]

Yeah, I heard that before.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And.

[A]

And because he was setting him up, because he knew they'd see him in the playoffs.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I mean, that's some four dimensional chess.

[B]

Gil, how do you feel? Well, not how do you feel? We talk about ring culture all the time, and there's been different approaches to ring culture. And you know, you hear people. I just saw something with D. Wade where he talked about those guys teaming up and people feel like you should have stayed on one team your entire career. You know, as you look back on it, obviously you pretty much played on one team most of your prime, where you were the most impact. Impactful. Did you ever think about, well, I know the answer to this. Because you didn't want to. I told you you should play with LeBron. And it was so competitive that you get caught up into, no, I want to do this myself. But the idea of doing it yourself,

[A]

no one's ever done it by themselves.

[C]

Yes. It's not real.

[B]

So you say it's not real.

[C]

Yeah. So ring culture is not real. It was never real. When you go back into the 80s and 90s, right, there was no ring culture. There was no ideal of ring culture. Right. You have by 90, by the Olympics, when we went to go, we assembled our best unit, brung out Magic Johnson, brung out Bird. Jordan only had two rings. He was the best player that ever walked. He was the goat already on that same team, he got five rings. You got Bird with three rings. You still got Kareem with his rings. Right. You got, you got Wilt. I mean, not Wilt, but you got Bill Russell with his rings. Right? So everyone has their rings already set. Jordan's going on his third. When that season started in the playoffs, Magic Johnson said, he is the goat. He's the best player ever.

[A]

But there's a difference.

[C]

And Isaiah Thomas coined that too. Remember, when he retires, there was no who is the best player ever. Everyone knew who the best player ever was. He only had three rings.

[A]

Yeah, but there's a difference. Which is people, people will say like, well, Bill Russell has all the rings. And he was never. He was considered the goat by many, by the way. But the argument in that era, even though There were only 8, 10, 12 teams in the league, so those rings do get discounted somewhat, right? But the argument in the era was Bill Russell had all the rings, Wilt had the numbers. And the eyeball test said Wilt, right eyeball. So. And this was kind of like in football before Brady went bananas with the, with the score, with the numbers. It was like, Peyton Manning has all the numbers. He's like the Wilt, but Brady is the winner. He's the Bill Russell, right? This was in baseball for a while. A Rod got all the numbers, but Jeter is the winner. The thing about MJ was he was Will. And Bill Russell, the eyeball test said, that's the guy. And then he started winning the championships. So really by the time he had the first one, that validated what everyone thought they'd already seen. And then he got three real quick in a row, three peat, which the Lakers never did, right? Pat Riley, three peat. But it hadn't happened in the modern era. So once he three peated, especially already passed the eyeball test, did all that, it was like, okay, we, you know, we got it.

[C]

But okay, so when you're going by exactly that, right? So at that time on Three Peat, he only had 18,000 points. Right, right. Remember Wilt, Magic Bird, everyone. Sealed by 93. Shit. By 93 he was, he went over Magic as the number. I went through all archives. He's the number one player ever, right? So there's no six rings, there's no six finals yet. So you're saying rings don't matter. The eye test and how it looks validation. And the rings were validation for the

[A]

second part of the argument. Like, put it this way, Jordan's third season, so he's 28 points his rookie year, he gets hurt and then he comes back against Larry Bird and them and scores 63, but they lose a series. Then the third year, he averaged 37 points a game. He was already the best player who ever lived by his third year. But he didn't have championships to validate it. So he wasn't put there yet. Once he got the first one, people are like, okay, and he won a title.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So with that being said, you can't use the argument of you need six rings to be put in when the person who has the crown only needed one or two. Right? Only needed one or two to get the crown. So you can't say that, oh, you need six. You need this, let's put it that way. To be in the archive.

[A]

If a player comes along and the eyeball test says, that's at least Jordan level, right. And maybe more. And then you look at the numbers and they say, yeah, that's better than mj. And then you can have an argument. The problem is, when you look at anything you want to look at per real box, plus, minus. Right. Like all that stuff that you would use to gauge players at their peak. Jordan's number one. Number one. His guy, Jokic, Anyone? Jordan, Ben, all those guys. And for his career average. Right. So that hasn't happened yet. And then he got six rings. But, Gil, it's not just the six. It's that the only time that he had an All Star, one other All Star on his team, and he didn't win the chip, was when he came back that first year, played 23 games, and the Magic beat him. Then he swept them the next year and before that when he had Scottie Pippen in Pippen's first All Star season, when he was pre prime and he got the migraine game seven against the defending champs. Otherwise, give him an All Star and he runs the table.

[C]

No, no.

[A]

It's a lot. But people conflate that with saying, oh, you're just counting chips. No, not just counting chips. It's one of the things you're doing.

[C]

It's like, I don't. That's why I said I don't believe in the ring culture. Because when you do the studies of it, it's really more the eye test. We can see who is the best player. We can gauge it. And I say the difference between LeBron and Jordan is when you say Jordan's name, you feel happy. So back then, there was only positive things being reported on your basketball.

[A]

So nobody knows pre social media, if

[C]

you basically asked anybody, how many championships did Kareem lose, Magic lose, or Bird lose, they wouldn't really know because it wasn't. That wasn't a thing. Right. You only knew Jerry west was losing, right? Yeah, because it was penalized. Yeah. So nobody's really penalized.

[A]

They gave Jerry west an MVP when they lost.

[B]

They gave him the logo.

[C]

They gave him the logo. So basically, when you talk about ring culture, the logo of the NBA says ring culture doesn't exist.

[A]

But it's nine times. But it depends. Like LeBron throughout his career. And this is what drives me crazy when people are like, steph, look at all the rings compared to LeBron should have gotten Finals MVP several years where his team lost, but he was clearly the most valuable player on either team. Right. That's why they gave it to Iguodala, because it was like you couldn't give it to Steph and all right, give it to the guy who guarded LeBron.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[A]

That's how the other guy. Kawhi, same thing. Give it to the guy who guarded LeBron. But he's clearly the best player in the series. So I don't think that counts against LeBron. Oh, he only has this many rings.

[C]

It's the memory. What is the memory that everyone has of mj? No matter what you're going to say about mj, when you think of mj, you just think of winning, you think of just the culture, you think of basketball. It's just a.

[A]

It's also the truth of the matter, Gil. I think people, that's all true.

[C]

It's just a good time, but they

[A]

use that to take credit away. Like that is true. If you're around pre social media, you got a big advantage in terms of what you're. In terms of the endorphins that pump in people's heads. Right. Like when you think. But then also when you peel away the layers and you look at the quality of prime, he's by himself in the quality of prime. The closest guy to me was LeBron in Miami. When he started defending all five positions and going like that was the guy I was like, woo hoo. You know, that's getting close. But so anyway. Yeah, yeah, but ring culture, like they were not exactly counting rings, but that was a big deal in the 80s if you won a championship or not.

[C]

Yeah, that's what they. If you win it as a superstar player. Now this is the problem with ring culture. When you using like rings to me is the cherry on top of the cake. You need a body of work first. Give me your body of work. And then if two people are tied, then let's add rings. But we're not gonna just add a ring. Were you the man when you add this ring? I'm not giving you a ring. Like if Charles Barkley won a ring when he was, you know, when he went to Houston. I'm sorry, bro, it's not the same. What about kd?

[A]

What about the fact that he was the best player? Yeah, but he was the best player on a championship team. It's true. But when you put a player of KD's caliber on a 73 win team, they can't lose. So, yes, he got a ring and yes, he was the best player, but that's not the same thing as proving that you can win a championship as the best player on a team. He got parachuted into something that was ready made, but you can't.

[C]

You can't discredit his ring but give credit for Steph's rings.

[A]

Why?

[C]

Why? This guy was the best player.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, that's why Steph Curry. That's why Steph in 15 only won because Kyrie and Kevin love got hurt. 16, he lost. 17 and 18, they couldn't lose. I wasn't giving Steph all that credit until he won in 22. Then he proved it.

[C]

So what does he got, one ring?

[A]

No, he's got more than one ring. He's got more than one ring. But his rings are not the same as Michael Jordan's or Kobe Bryant's or someone like that.

[C]

See, I. Me and you kind of think the same, right? Because when I go through. Through history and through books, all rings aren't equal the same. Right, Right. They just. They're just not right. Scotty Pippen rings, those six, they're not the same as Michael Jordan's.

[A]

Right.

[C]

They're not the same as LeBron James,

[A]

but they're pretty good.

[C]

But they're good. They're good. If there's some sidekick rings.

[B]

If there's some sidekick rings, I think Scotty's rings are just the same as Michael Jordan's. Why not?

[A]

Because he won the best player on the team.

[B]

Yeah, but he was the most impactful player on the team.

[C]

I get it.

[B]

What do you mean? Listen, I get if you unplug Scottie Pippen off that team, sure, Jordan's 0 for 6. Sure.

[A]

Could be. Who knows? But could be Scotty. But replace Scottie Pippen with another All Star. No one does it without another All Star. No, another All Star. He's going to win more than one.

[B]

You can replace him with another All Star. But just because it's an All Star don't mean it's Scottie Pippen.

[A]

No question. I'm not saying six. I'm saying. But he's going to win some.

[B]

How many All Stars are going to be willing to take a backseat knowing

[A]

100% of every all Star who ever.

[B]

That's not true.

[A]

If you're playing with Jordan, you got no choice.

[B]

No, that's not true. Because again, this is where you got to really dive into the type of player you're talking about. Just All Star okay, remove that All Star. But you talking about a guy that's six, nine, that plays both sides of the ball. That is six, seven, whatever. He got a seven three wingspan. Right. He can initiate the offense the best. You had three guys on that team, Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, that were on the all defensive team. 3.

[C]

Ron Harper should have been on it. Ron Harper.

[B]

And that was after Harp had the knee issue.

[A]

I don't care what anyone says. Dennis Robin, greatest defender I've ever seen. Yeah.

[B]

No one's arguing with Pippen.

[C]

No.

[B]

Well, again, so you had two guys who you can argue that was the greatest defensive players you ever seen.

[A]

No question.

[B]

I'm not discrediting anything. All I'm saying is, I also don't agree with you guys. Kind of saying what Steph Rings isn't. Because again, KD might have been the best player on the team, but you unplugged Steph Curry off of that team.

[A]

No question.

[B]

They're not winning.

[A]

Deserves credit for the fact that he created a climate and an atmosphere and a system because of the distance he could shoot and what he could do that led to a healthy environment and the kind of team that you could plug guys into and win championships. He deserves credit for that.

[B]

Yeah. And I don't agree with anything Max ever says. LeBron's the best ever.

[C]

No, I'm just saying that you can't discredit. My thing is, you can't discredit KD's and give Curry credit for full.

[B]

No, I don't discredit.

[C]

Right. So it's either you give. They both get their credit for the rings, I don't discredit, or they both get penalized.

[B]

I don't just credit anybody.

[A]

Steph Curry in 2022 finally had the year where he was the best player in the world, where throughout the playoffs, he was the best player on either team. He was the MVP of the finals and his team won the championship. To me, if you take 2022 away, I don't think of Steph the same way. He's all time great, but when people talk about top 10, that's hard. But 2022, now we can talk top 10.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

No, I mean longevity gonna give you top 10, but I'm one of those guys. I gotta look at the game. I gotta see how you're playing it. Right. I give you your credit. Right. This was really A1, A1B situation. Right. That was when KD got there, it was. KD was one and Steph was two. But you still have one of the best players in the world. So there's only a certain amount of people that can come to your team and make you number two. Right.

[A]

So.

[C]

So I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna put you as a Paul George.

[A]

If Paul George is on that team, Steph is number one. But they still run the table.

[B]

Yeah, but you look at it different.

[C]

So I look and you can have

[B]

a different opinion because you actually play. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by Weathertech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need Weathertech floor liners in the summer. Unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways. Ketchup goes rogue. Ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. But I want to give Gil his flowers. Because, Gil, you were one we were talking about before you got here. You were one of the first guys that, that matter. I, I imagine that was actually tweeting very interesting things from, from. And I'm just like, people like, oh, he's crazy. I'm like, no, he's not crazy. That's Gil. Like, he will say that to you. Like, everything he's saying on Twitter is exactly what he would say to you. I've seen it done. I've been with him several times. I've seen him. Tell us. Yeah, I'll meet you all there. He's never showing up. After the second time, I'm like, okay, this man is not showing up. I know that. But if you call him at 8 o' clock in the morning, he'll be there. But I want to say, how, how did you go about building your media platform? Because as you know, Max got flacked because of me for wanting to do this show, which neither one of us cared, but he did. But how did you go about. Because you had the hottest show. We think the hottest show. Gills arena, hottest sports show. Like, how did you go about doing. So what made you think, oh, when did you know that this was it? And then where are you now in all of that?

[C]

So I, you know, I'm from la, so I'm growing up in Hollywood, Dad. Dad. You know, aspiring actor. So, you know, I've been around a lot of acting personalities. Showmen, right? So, you know, then getting into basketball, watching Magic, watching Bird. Right. Watching Shaquille o' Neal come in. Right. Looking at his personality, I was a Penny Hardaway fan realizing, okay, he doesn't have the personality. Oh, but the Penny doll does. Right? So. So watching what entertainment was inside of entertainment. So when.

[A]

What do you mean by entertainment inside of entertainment?

[C]

So you have Kawhi Leonard. He's entertaining basketball, but he's not entertaining inside of his job. Right? There's a difference between Shaquille o', Neal, right? Where he falls down, he's shaking the hands, kissing the baby, eating the popcorn. That's the entertainment.

[A]

Muhammad Ali. I just saw a reel yesterday where Muhammad Ali is talking about this while he's still fighting.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That's the showmanship.

[B]

The showmanship, exactly.

[C]

So the Conor McGregor's right? Showmanship, the showman you're selling. You're selling yourself inside of selling yourself. Right? That is a thing. Superstars are selling themselves all the time. That's what made Jordan great. This chewing a gum, pulling like he's showing he's inside. He's making you remember him outside of the points itself, right? So I learned that early. So, like, I remember when it was Dennis Rodman, after he lost, he threw his shirt in the crowd and everybody was, like, damn near fought over that jersey. And I said, if I ever make it to the NBA, that's gotta be my calling.

[A]

Call. Know what Rodman once said when they were giving him shit about when he was on the Bulls? He said, when I was on Detroit, 17 boards a game, $800,000 a year. Now I'm on the Bull, winning championships. Now I'm on The Bulls, same 17 boards, still winning championships. Dyed my hair pink. $8 million a year.

[C]

Yeah, it's just a look. It's just what you do inside of what you do. And that's just the thing.

[A]

But when people say that, like Muhammad Ali's talk, he saw Gorgeous George, this wrestler, and that showed him how to be a villain to half the people. And they'll show up and buy tickets, but I always think, like, or sometimes people will just be real good dudes in business. And they're like, well, it's really good for business. I always think that's a rationalization that you are who you are, and people, like, people use all these explanations in their own minds. Well, this is why I did that. No, you didn't. You did that. Cause that's you, right? Like, that's Gilbert Arenas. You're saying it was conscious. You're like, this is me. And now I'm gonna show everybody.

[C]

Yes, I was quiet.

[A]

Well, that's true.

[C]

Yeah, I was quiet. I really didn't do interviews. And then when I got snubbed from the All Star Game and I said, I'm gonna be the East Coast Assassin, I'm killing everyone. I didn't do nothing different, actually. Averaged less. Second team, all NBA. Oh, he's killing everyone. Like, he said he was a man of his word. Like, I'm not doing anything different, but I put words behind it. That's when Agent Zero was created. Then it moved me back to my younger days. So then, you know, when the NBA came about blogging, I said, I'm gonna take advantage of this. Give me the blog. I know what to do. And then I end up winning a few awards, you know, for blogger of the year, during that. So when I retired, I'm good, you know, let's just chill. And someone said, hey, let's. Let's do a podcast. And I was like, what was the podcast? And then they kind of explained. I was like. Like Howard Stern. They was like, no, that's radio. But, yeah, I was like, well, I'm famous, so you gotta use my face. So it's like, okay, we'll videotape it and then go from there. First three episodes. Ah, I don't want it. I don't want it. I didn't like what it was. They put it out anyway. Start hitting. Then from there, it's like, hmm, might have something here. So I kept doing it. Kept doing it. And I started realizing that a player talking about what they did unfiltered, had an audience, Right? So you're hearing it directly from the source itself. So before, no offense, it's like an airplane. You have passengers. We call them the fans. Then you have stewardess. We call it media.

[A]

At least call us airline attendance. Stewardess. When you said, no offense. I don't take offense. But then you said, stewardess.

[C]

Airlines. So airline attendance, right?

[A]

No, I'm an airliner.

[C]

At the end of the day, the view that you have is the same view as the passengers. The passengers. But you get to talk. Yes, you get to talk to the pilot.

[A]

It's such a racket. It's unbelievable.

[C]

But you're not the pilot.

[B]

Not the pilot. Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[C]

See, so what ended up happening is a pilot comes in and starts talking about little things here and there, and then I have the connection with the player, understanding that we have a code, don't touch certain subjects. So I can sit and have a conversation with Kevin Durant and know not to talk about certain things. Draymond Green. Because there's like this.

[A]

Burners.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So because we play together, so we know what irritates us from the media.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So we're not looking for that deep stuff.

[A]

By the way, the media knows what irritates too. And it's not to irritate you when someone like me asks a question. The point is, and by the way, most people would rather not ask the question because it's uncomfortable. It's just that that's what if people want to be interested, that's what they want to hear. You got to ask the question, the people want to hear the answer.

[B]

As a player, do you feel. How do you do that without an agenda? As a player like you? Because some of these people you might compete against and you might not have liked them on the floor. And so now all you, you have these platforms for everybody. Your opinion is different than others. But we see opinions where it's clearly, clearly an agenda. We can tell you don't like the guy.

[C]

Yeah. And that's a thing that I fight. Like, if I'm doing an interview, if I'm doing an interview, then my job is to protect whoever I'm interviewing.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So it's not about views. Because sometimes if you get someone really comfortable, they say anything. Right. Right. Now I can't take this anything and exploit it. Right. So there's been plenty of times where I interview people and they said some shit.

[A]

I'm like, cut it out.

[C]

I wouldn't want that out against me. Even though I said it being comfortable, I don't want it. Those are not good views.

[A]

So you're creating a safe enough space that people will open up, open up.

[C]

But I can't use what I can do to get numbers. So there's things where, like I did an interview where two hours interview and then the hour and a half of it just went whole different. And I was like, yeah, we're not using none of that. Actually. Erase it off the file. Right. This would be a 30 minute video.

[B]

You're a real one for that.

[C]

Right. So it's those and those relationships.

[A]

Players know they're in good hands. When they come with you, you can get vulnerability out of them and interesting stuff out of them without exposing stuff they don't want to expose.

[C]

Yeah. So I always ask, hey, if there's anything that you think of that you don't want, just let me know. If I see some things that I don't think that I will want out by myself, I will have it cut out.

[A]

But there's something about you too, that when Rich says no agenda. If you watch Charles Barkley, who to me is the best in this business, including everybody since Muhammad Ali, basically the best talker. But he gives you the sense that he says to you in public what he will say to you behind closed doors and whatever. And you give me that same feeling. Like, if I watch Gil, I'm gonna get what he really thinks, right? Like more than you interviewing someone. I don't care what you're getting at it. Like, when I watch you, I'm like, I'm interested in his opinion because I know it's really his opinion. Right.

[C]

I mean, yeah. So, like, when it comes to, like, we have a job to be unbiased to the information.

[A]

Right.

[C]

If I am biased, I should let you know, hey, I'm a Laker fan, right? Right. So I'm biased. You let people know that I am biased to Lakers players in the information with Lakers, everybody else. I'll be neutral. If I don't like you today because you did something that I don't like, I will say it. If you do something tomorrow that I like, I'm gonna say it. I'm not gonna be biased to. It don't matter what you say to me, right? If Jayden Brown says, I hate you, but he has 50 tomorrow, Jalen's my guy. I want your jersey. He's the main MVP voting.

[A]

How many fighters I've had to say, like, early in their careers, I say, great. Let's say I was back. Back in the HBO days. We did fights on hbo and I would say great things about this up and coming fighter and they love me and da, da, da. And I used to have to say we could be friends. Like, I'm good. You love me now because I'm saying great things about you. There's gonna come a time when you're old and you're not as good and I'm gonna be saying different things about you. You're gonna hate me then. No, no, no, no, no. But of course, of course, when you hear someone say that you're slowing down or whatever, they don't like it.

[C]

Yeah. Like, basketball players, the reason that we still have respect and I have respect to them because they know that if I say something bad, if you do something good, I'm gonna praise you just as loud. Right? You know, no matter what I say about Cat, I have his jersey on. I'm gonna be supporting him. I'm gonna be cheering him on. That's just me. Let's go, Knicks. Let's go, Wolves. Like, they know no matter what I say, I'm gonna switch it.

[A]

There's definitely a culture, too, where people see things binary and you understand why they don't have all the time in the world. They see a little reel real quick, so they get an idea. Gilbert Arenas, positive about this or negative about this. And then once you're positive about it or negative, let's say you're negative about it now they're like, now you're not allowed to change your mind. Oh, but you said this. Yeah, because back then, that was the truth. Then it changed. Now I'm saying this.

[C]

Yeah. No, and that's the thing. People don't allow you to change your mind.

[A]

They don't want you to.

[C]

Like, I could change. Like, it was like, Jordan's number one today. Tomorrow's LeBron James. Next week is Jordan. Oh, you know what? He drafted this person. He's number two now, right? I can do that. I have the right. I don't need to pick who I want. Like. Like, I have three goats I have three goals. One goat I watched, one goat I played with, one goat I competed with. Right?

[A]

That.

[C]

That's like. Like, I don't believe in. I have all three. Like, I love greatness, right? So I'm not gonna sit here and say, okay, Jordan's number one, and then I'm gonna talk about LeBron. If he's number two, like, he's fucking 5,000, right? Number two. Like, I. I tell people this, I say, wait, you have them where you have LeBron 2, you have LeBron 5, you have LeBron 9. I never understood how someone's top 10 has negativity talking to it. This is the top 10 of all time of something, and you're talking negative about it. Like, if I said, give me your top 10 movies, you're not gonna say, oh, number nine, or number eight, and then you just throw a whole bunch of negative campaigns.

[A]

But also, if someone has, like, Kobe six or seven or eight and someone else. Some people have them 11. That's disrespectful. Dah, dah, dah, except that. Are you disrespectful? Is it disrespectful to Kareem if you don't to. To. You know, like, there are a lot of great players. Are you disrespectful to Magic, to Bird, to this, to that?

[C]

You know, I tell people this. I said, tell me your list, then tell me your criteria. Because your criteria won't match your list. But also because your. Your. Your what makes you feel good overrides all stats.

[A]

So the thing I said about Iguodala, bring it. I want Iguodala turned into like a gif or. A gif or a meme or something, right? I believed it at the time. Looking back at it, I was right. Open shot. Steph was missing him in the biggest moments. Iggy had ice water in his veins. Obviously he's not the same shooter. I'm talking about that clutch thing. Then I saw 2022, okay? Even before that, when he played, when they lost cause KD got hurt. But throughout that series, Steph was hitting huge threes. Late in the game, in the finals, at home, on the road, winning games, I saw it start to change. So, yeah, now I think, yeah, open shot, give me Steph by 2022. But in 2016, give me a Guodala.

[C]

You're actually right.

[A]

I know I'm right.

[C]

Because what happens was, and it's no knock against Steph. Steph wasn't clutch because he never had to be clutch because he was always sitting the last six minutes of the fourth quarter. Interesting, right? So because he. He was. They were blowing everybody else out. He never really got the exercise of this. So he never really got them to hit the game winner, miss the game winners and get reps on it because he was just always sitting in a third, right? So when it was moments in time where he already won a championship, but this is his third chance at a game winner, that and he misses and. Oh, he's not clutch. Well, this is the refs. He just doesn't have the rest.

[A]

There's always a reason. I look at Peyton and Eli, right, and they do a great show themselves, but Peyton was always the second coming and all this. And he was the best quarterback ever in the numbers. So in the playoffs, I always felt like he underperformed. And I imagine that's because he was facing enormous pressure. Not only did he have a ton of attention on him from the defense, but he's supposed to win all these games, right? Whereas Eli, his little brother, you know, he never. Peyton absorbed all the Pressure. He's loose if he loses the game they were supposed to lose. So in the super bowl, he's the most clutch player ever. Cause he's playing without that same pressure. Right? There's always a reason why you look at a dude like Steph or Peyton or someone like that who's underperforming in those moments. It doesn't mean there's something bad about them, but there's an explanation why you get there.

[C]

And I just. I just. And that's what I do. I just look at the game, look at situations, and then judge what was clutch, what was not. Right? Just trying to understand, like, that's why I said. When you said it, and I started looking back, and then I just realized, oh, he just doesn't have the reps. He's just been sitting for so long that. Right. Like, by his third run at a championship, is the first time he's ever been challenged for game winners. That's why, like, you know, KD and Draymond had the situation. KD's used to getting the ball. The last couple, hey, give me the ball. Let me do my thing. Draymond was like, well, what I usually do is just grab it, go. And we just push it and, you know, pass it. And that's my thing.

[A]

They're both coming from points of view that they've experienced a lot of success, team success, doing it this way. So they can't understand why the other one doesn't understand that.

[C]

And that's all it was just in real time, real emotions. Both of them barked at the same time. That's all that was.

[B]

We have a couple more before you get out of here. Gil, how you feeling about your Lakers?

[C]

Are you telling me something good?

[B]

I'm not telling you anything.

[C]

I'm asking you a question. I mean, Max, we talk about it all the time.

[B]

I mean, listen. You see my hat? What'd that say? Chief Podcast Officer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is not. I'm not who you think I am. This is a totally different guy.

[C]

We have some very big decisions. And just because we have that Laker, that Laker logo doesn't mean we just get to inherit what history just gives us. Right? We get the best players just because we're Lakers. Right. We still have to be smart here, right? You know, we got LeBron up, we got Austin Reeves up, and those are big decisions.

[A]

This is why I suggested. And he got flack for it halfway through the season, they should consider trading Austin Reaves.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Because they talked about it on this show.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Because if you. When you pay the supermax, really the only way to beat the system is if that guy's worth more than the supermax. That is as good as Austin Reaves is. That is not the case. And what other assets do they really have to get better now they're in a position where they either pay them or lose them.

[C]

Yes, it was a time where. But you have to be a basketball mind to understand and look at Austin Reaves, go through his game film and say, is this my second option?

[A]

He's a great six man.

[C]

So I'm so, yeah, so I'm looking at it is, am I going to pay and if I pay him this money, am I going to be able to trade him for the peers that he's in the same market with? Right. He's going to be paid a couple million under Luka. Am I going to be able to make trades for this guy at this number? And the answer would have been no.

[A]

And by the way, I love Austin Reaves because if you go watch a Lakers game, which I do with Rich, and you see in the middle of the season when there's not a lot to play for, who's playing the right way out of everyone on that team? One of the best examples I could give you is Austin Reaves. He is trying to win both ends of the floor to whatever effect. He can affect whatever. You can gauge that, but he's trying to do the right thing. So I love a player like that. But if you have to give him

[C]

a supermax, you know what he is? He is. He. He is Ginobili that got the start where his style of play is controlled chaos, right? He has this thing that he has in his head and it's chaotic, but it's controlled because it's coming through him. So it's not.

[A]

He's a killer mentality.

[C]

It's not fully Jordan Poole, right? It's not fully Jordan Poole, right? But it's like, okay, we can win with this. There's gonna be more good, then there's going to be bad. He's going to take some shots like, come on, what is this? Then he's going to take some shots like, yes, yes. This is what we need right now.

[B]

So

[C]

that is my sixth man that comes in and changes the tempo. Meaning when he comes in the game, the ball is his. Just like Ginobili. Yeah, you're the sixth man, but you're really the number one option. Last five minutes, we got Tim Duncan, but we're going to give you the ball. And let you just change stuff up because everything is locked down, right? You give the ball to Austin Reigns, he's going to get these fouls. You're going to get in there and there's going to be some good things that happens. That frees up, you know, the LeBron and Luka. So you have to be careful with how much you pay him. But the numbers say he deserves this number. So this is one of those things where you have to sit down, you might have to say, hey, you know that Kawhi Leonard. So we're going to, you know, we got 100 million for you, but we got you like Ronaldo Beach. I got about 50 acres of Redondo beach for you. Like, there's going to have to be some.

[A]

Listen, that's what Jalen Brunson did. Brunson did that. Not only did they get him on a deal, but they didn't rework it to where he deserves because he wants to win a chance. It's a messed up position, but the collective bargaining agreements throughout NBA history have put the players in the position where if they want to win, they actually do have to sometimes give up money.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Depending on how good they are.

[C]

I never liked that idea.

[A]

Me neither.

[C]

The reason I don't like it is because it's.

[A]

That's what you're talking about.

[C]

It's your money. It's your money that you want to win a championship to owner. So you want me to sacrifice my millions for a billionaire.

[A]

Right? So. But what it comes down to is based on what you're saying for Austin Reaves, the most rational course of action is that he go gets his supermax somewhere else and now the Lakers get nothing for him.

[C]

But I saved money. I always believe in getting something for you is exactly. What. What am I getting for you? Am I getting back better assets? Because, you know, his value high was early. People was like, okay, now, right now, you know, time went by, playoffs went by. It's like, is he going to get

[A]

the same value back and the Lakers might lose him for nothing?

[C]

No, no, no, no. There's no such thing. Right. I save 40 million a year where I can go pay someone this money, I can go get other assets, right? That like me paying you to go trade you to get back whatever. Yeah, that's. That's. I never understood why people do that.

[A]

Me neither. I'm saying the time to do it was in the middle of the season.

[C]

Yeah. If you were going to trade him, but, you know, you still had hope in the beginning of the season. So, you know, it all depends on, you know, it all depends on what they do with that deal, right. You still got LeBron playing at a high level, right. So, you know, depending on who you bring in, he stays number two option or he goes three. If you can get a Giannis and LeBron is there, you can get a Giannis and Jokic is there. Like you're talking about a very different team, right. Where it's all about moving money around and trying to figure it out. So it's above my pay grade now

[A]

that Walters is in there. Give it a couple years and I think they'll be in a good position.

[C]

I just know this history says that Lakers will win a championship in the next three years because every superstar face that the Lakers has had besides Elgin Mailer has won a championship. That's just what happened. So, you know, it's just pieces. But at the end of the years, you said it's them bench. It's that bench. It's the bench that's important. The starters is the starters. When LeBron lost the first championship in Miami, it wasn't the starters, it's the bench. I can't come off the bench. I got old off the bench, right. I got these young legs and then I got to bring in a bunch of 50 year olds.

[B]

Well, you let the people tell it, you know, he's criticized for that. You couldn't beat. You had JJ Barea guarding you when, if you really watch the film, you had like five people guarding you. And J.J. barrea was like the, the doorknob on the, on the steel door.

[A]

That was. Everyone knows they were figuring it out still. LeBron was being overly respectful to D. Wade and they needed a season to figure it out.

[C]

And you played against the Wizards, Remember the trade? Those are the wizard players who play LeBron how many times.

[B]

Yeah, that's true, that's true.

[A]

They had experience.

[C]

Yeah. So you got, you got desean Karon and Brendan Haywood over there. So now everything we was lacking there, Carlisle did here.

[B]

Carlisle did a great job.

[C]

No, no, but you had.

[A]

They also had height who could play like they had three seven footers with Tyson Chandler. They could all play and they were getting real and that's what it was.

[C]

We're going to stay big, put a guard on him. If you put a guard on them, it kind of changes how he wants to play. Now he wants to play more. Back to the basket where by the time he turns in face, we're here. So close this lane up to the point where he can't get into it. Play Dwyane Wade. If Dwyane Wade gets off, cool. He doesn't have the LeBron effect, where LeBron gets off and everyone gets off. So we're going to. We're going to. We're going to close this. We're going to close it up to the point where he can't breathe. Let him shoot his jumpers right now. Don't let him get no layups. Don't let him get nothing inside.

[A]

And also, this is why the Knicks might win this year. I'm just telling you, some teams in certain years, it's like feeding you into a wood chipper, right? Like they're. They're hitting on all cylinders.

[B]

Are hitting.

[A]

The Knicks are hitting. That year, Dallas was just hitting, right?

[B]

Well, no, they had a great, had a great run.

[C]

They had great nine, 10 players. So that's why I said that Jet bench, it's a bench that you need where I can sub in. Like when you talk about Golden State Barrera, I mean, Barbosa, when I come in and get. Think about it. When you sit, if you sit Barnes, if you sit Steph Curry in the middle of the third quarter and you're up 10 and he can't get back in the game, it's because of the bench. The bench put it up to 20. Sit down.

[B]

Well, that's what we're talking about in this game seven and also in the finals.

[C]

Who has the best bench players?

[A]

The bench players held it down for the spurs last night. If it would have started getting close, they'd have had to put Wemby back in the game.

[C]

Yes. So they had a great bench. Now that, that. Now, now we're going to see who bench performs.

[B]

Who bench performs best. Yes.

[C]

So, Gil, Knicks don't really have.

[B]

Knicks don't have the better bench. No, but Knicks has the worst bench

[A]

out of all three. Who's their sixth man? Really?

[C]

Who?

[A]

Mitch Robinson. It's just. He doesn't really do what a sixth man does.

[B]

But, but that's the only difficult for the Knicks. They does. They do not have the best bench.

[A]

But sham. It's been hot.

[C]

Yeah, it's different when you see what I'm saying, it's very different.

[A]

Things are going to have to fall their way. But they've been falling their way.

[C]

They've been playing. They've been playing great.

[B]

They have. Gil, Gil, also, you know, we talk about just AAU and, and how to develop. I'm big on development. You know how you, you know that For a fact, big on development. And this year, you know, Elijah didn't come out in the draft. The approach of that, you know, what has been your experience as a parent, you know, obviously with your son being a, being an NBA prospect,

[C]

reading the universe, right? Where you know from USA Basketball, right? Hurts his ankle before, so he can't, you know, he can't play in it, right? Then the car accident, then he hurts his knee, then he comes back, right? It's like, okay, you're showing signs. But people didn't realize that he didn't actually get to train with the team or get the 5 on 5. The first 5 on 5 experience was in his first game, so he didn't get to go up and down. So he's playing his first five on five of college basketball in real game.

[A]

That's crazy.

[C]

So he's learning five on five in real game. So it's like, wow, watching, gauging, right? It's like, okay, all right, you understand how to get your shot, you're just not going to have your leg. So understanding the beginning of the game, that's your window. Halftime, the first couple minutes, that's your window after that, right? You better get layups and free throws, right? And you got to understand that. So watching the progression, looking at everybody else is like, well, if you can get into, into individual workouts with these other guards, you have a chance. You're six, seven. You're longer, right? You're more creative, more skilled, right? You have an advantage over them. But if I'm those agents, I'm not gonna work out with you, right? So it's like, where do you get to show that you're a top five, top ten pick? So it's like, let's just get healthy, come back for your second year, which will be your freshman year anyway.

[A]

It's so interesting to see what level your son achieves because I'm always interested in athletes who achieved at a high level and what their kids might do. So, like, so like, if you're Ken Griffey Sr. Who is an all star, maybe your son could be Ken Griffey Jr. He's one of the greatest players of all time. But it usually doesn't work the other way. If your father is at a certain level, like at an MVP level, what son of a player ever had a father at that level where they achieved on that level too, right?

[C]

Hard.

[A]

I'm so curious. Now, you were a 28, 29 point a game guy who was on at least the periphery of those discussions, right? If your son is an all NBA caliber player one day, is that the first time in history? I'm trying to think like Rick Brunson played in the NBA, but it wasn't Jalen Brunson.

[C]

And same thing with Curry.

[A]

Yeah, same Dell Curry, real good, you know, but like not Steph Curry.

[C]

Because what happens is it depended on when we had our kids, right? And you know, Carmelo and you know, Bron, even Chris Paul, right? You're still very high level players when your kids is growing up, but also

[A]

their kids like you're 6 3, your son is 6 7. LeBron's 6 8. His son ain't 6 8.

[C]

But it's not about the height, it's about the attention to detail, right? Bron, Carmelo and Chris Paul can't give the child the detail of the game because they're still in the game at the moment in time. So the reason a lot of athlete kids didn't get to the level is because while they're getting, while they need the information in real time from their parent who's there, that parent is still in the middle of his career doing the same job. So he don't have. I can't sit here with you four or five hours and do this. I got to prepare, prepare for this game.

[A]

So who, who Archie Manning maybe is the closest thing. So in other words, I brought it Ken Griffey Sr. Because he was an All Star. Ken Griffey Jr. Was better, you know, was one of the best players ever. What I'm saying is I'm trying to think of in any sport where the father was as good as Gilbert Arenas and the son also reached at least that level. I can't think of a single example.

[C]

It has to be a short career. See the reason that Elijah can possibly do it because I was 30, 30 when I ended.

[A]

So you were able to devote attention.

[C]

So when I retired and I'm still mobile, I get to give by the time he's only 10. So when I retired he wasn't playing basketball yet. So when he got introduced to basketball, I can sit with him five in the morning, six in the morning and we're going to work and work.

[A]

And as luck would have it, he

[C]

turns out to be a 6, 7. Yeah, so he's so. But that's all my kids. So I got to train. I got to personally train my kids four or five hours a day, every single day.

[A]

If you have a child who achieves on your level, that might be in the history of sports, I'd say That you're competing with. The competition would be Archie Manning with his sons. Right. In the NFL, what other father ever achieved on a certain level.

[B]

And their son Deon and Shador, which we don't know.

[A]

But Dion is. Deion is the best ever at what he did.

[B]

Understand different positions, but I'm. I'm just talking about the father son dynamic. Like you said. Bron and Bronnie. Bronnie, too. Just like Elijah, he didn't get to do anything with the team. He just had to be thrown out there. Obviously, we all know what, what, what?

[A]

And also Bronnie's the height he is. It's just how it wound up.

[B]

Yeah. If he gets six, seven.

[C]

But. But even right now, LeBron's still playing.

[A]

Yes. He's got to worry about his own game.

[B]

So your best case is you get to practice with him. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That's the best case scenario.

[C]

And I always said this when they first got on, I said I wouldn't be practicing with my father because we're not in the same situation. He is in conserving his energy mode, and he has his routine for 20 years.

[B]

And I'm on God, me.

[C]

I'm on go Dog time. So I need to be working out with dogs who don't like me, which

[B]

is why the G League was great.

[C]

If you don't like me, that means you're gonna go at me. That means I get to tested real. So you're going to test me better than I would be tested in practice.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And that's what I said. I said, you're going to. And I said this. I said, you might not see the steps with Bronny in the game because those are still going to be nervous games for him. G League is where you get to really see the jump because he's going to be attacked every moment, and then once he gets attacked, his attributes really kick in. Then you're going to see just natural behavior of jumping ability coming in.

[A]

And you saw something Bronnie. To me, when I watch him, he just needs to assert himself as soon as he steps onto the court. Like, he's, I think he's.

[C]

He.

[A]

He's very much thinking about playing the right way. And I want. I'd like him to be aggressive.

[B]

Well, he's, He's, He's. He's gradually gotten a lot better. Like when you see it and JJ started to give him minutes and started to trust him a little.

[A]

I want to see him start shooting.

[B]

I thought, Bronnie, great job. Up to this point. And obviously when I worked, when I

[C]

worked him out the first time, and then if he was going against Sky Clark. Yeah, right. So Sky Clark, you know, five star. So Elijah's there, we're at ucla. And I had them do. It was one on one on ones, right? Keep. Make it, take it right. And sky wins. 5, 0, right. And I said, brianny, come on, man. Don't, don't, don't. Don't let him do that to you. Fight for the name. And he just went blank. And then the shit. Sorry. That I seen. I was like, yo, I hit bronze. Yeah, he'll be fine. You just gotta trigger him. He did a Euro step, so he wasn't fully dunking yet. So he did a Euro step where he kawaii palmed it and he boom, boom. And then he's at the rim. I'm like, turn it, turn it, turn it. And he laid it five zeroed both. And I was like, that's what he said.

[A]

He said he needs to be triggered.

[C]

He needs to be triggered. And then what happens when he gets triggered? All thought goes out and then his attributes kick in. And when he goes. When he goes to the G League, he's not thinking anymore. No, he's just going. Playing. When he comes into the NBA, every experience is a new experience from him. And he comes in and he, okay, I need to think. All right, we're going to pass it. And I'm like, you're more athletic, you're faster, you're stronger than most of the people that's going to guard. Just go. I think, like, if I'm jj, if I jj and I'm putting him in and I'm going to be like, yo, there's two minutes.

[A]

I need five shots, right?

[C]

Give me five shots.

[A]

Shoot. The first thing, it's like, shoot. And he hesitates and all of a sudden, come on, shoot it.

[C]

Because he doesn't know if he's supposed to take this shot, right? Because there's. You're still a kid watching a role player. You're still a kid, but you're still watching guys you watched. Yeah, these are still guys that are watching plays. And you're not. You're not getting adjusted because you're not playing long enough, Right? So when you're looking at his percentage, it's like, guys, that's not how the percentage works. Yeah, it's 22%, but he's coming in. He's been sitting for 46 minutes, not

[A]

taking a bunch of shots.

[C]

He hasn't shot since the beginning of the game that was at 7:30 in the playoffs.

[A]

He did.

[B]

In moments in the playoffs where you

[C]

say, okay, you have to tell him. It's okay.

[B]

You saying as a coach, as a

[C]

coach, you have to tell him, hey, just go out there and play. Just play. I need you to, like, at the end of the game when I put him in, I'm giving him exactly what I need him to do. Hey, I need 10 points. Give it to me. He's going to give it to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's just him. Right. And you know, some guys are like

[A]

that, but he needs, hey, I need five. You got two.

[C]

He needs, he needs to understand that I'm not judging you. Just go out there like, like, not some people. I'd rather not miss a shot. So I'm not gonna take the shot and I'm good.

[A]

How do you raise kids that are hungry, given like the life that they live as their dad's famous, you know, the money is different. Everything is different for a kid. How do you raise. I mean, you have experience with this. How do you raise a kid to get them to that level when they, you know, when they grow up with a silver spoon.

[C]

Put them in situations that's designed for them to fail. Right. So when you have, you know, if they're playing basketball, you have them. Aau. Don't put them on the best AAU team where they're designed to win every game. Put him on the worst AAU team where he's gonna purpose to get picked on just cause that.

[A]

And you did this.

[C]

Yeah. You're gonna get picked on. You're gonna get picked on the whole time.

[B]

Yeah, I went to the right.

[C]

I want. You're gonna get dogged. Walk now you going home mad every single day. Now you got. Now you don't wanna play the video games today, huh? Yeah. He was talking so much trash. Now you're sitting there.

[B]

But that's who Gilbert is.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, that's. He's gonna do things. Non. Traditionally, his basketball IQ and acumen has always been off the chain. Then you have the talent and then when you have the I want to destroy you mentality, like he would literally come over, we play cards and he's talking, saying, you know what? Don't worry because tomorrow I'm going to destroy you anyway.

[C]

But it's just like. But we all know it, right? We all understand the ideal of if you're going to swim in the ocean, I'm just going to throw you in there. Learn, right? We do. We all understand that, right? If I want to get better at something, I fight the biggest person. And once I adapt to him, everybody below me or my same. I'm good. But we don't always use it right. So sometimes you just have to put the person in. You're by yourself versus five. Go. I don't care about wins or losses. What I want to say, you fight, you fight, you fight, you fight, you fight. You start getting better, you start getting hungry. You start. Because you're getting ate up. And then eventually you start putting on these badges of attributes that you didn't even know was there.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Right. And then. But that's what Jokic is. Jokic has a bunch of attributes that if he gets a point guard that can pass like him, he don't need that attribute anymore.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So he's sitting there with a whole bunch of attributes because of the grind. Same thing with a Westbrook, same thing with LeBron. Right. You have all these things that you're walking around. You have a bag, you have a bag. So when people talk about drafting, I'm drafting the person that has the most attributes because I don't have to be as smart. I can be dumb. Right. So when I'm taking a number one pick and they say, jordan, I'm going to go with LeBron first, who's the coach?

[A]

Who's this?

[C]

But I'm going to go with LeBron because he's a point guard, small.

[A]

Whatever you need, he can do.

[C]

Yeah. So now my second pick, I don't have to be a genius. I don't have to be. So you go.

[B]

Because I've already filled in the blanks.

[C]

Yeah. So give me Jokic, Give me. Yeah.

[A]

All things will tend to favor you.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you got a guy who can do everything.

[C]

Yeah. So give me jokic, Wimby or LeBron James, the number one pick, and then I can go from there.

[A]

Right, right.

[C]

And that's. That's, you know, that's. That's. That's how I draft and how I look at talents and people. I'm going to put your kid in a situation where he can get the most attributes. So when he gets put in a situation and he's a. He's a shooting guard, but he can pass, too. If they bring in a better shooter, he can go into pass mode. Right. And those are the things you gotta look about moving to the next level, like equipping these kids with as much ability as possible.

[B]

Max, we have to do Gil's show next. His new show.

[C]

My new show. Yeah, yeah. You know, part of the business is. And I know y' all talked about it earlier, like, I've watched a lot. I created Inside the NBA as a podcast. Right. Understood that this is what people want. Charles Barkley, Shaq. And then you have your structured, right, the banter.

[B]

Josiah's Ernie.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, you have your banter, and people love the banter of ex players. And then you need the structure of it. So when I created the YouTube, it was the same way. And I, I, I.

[A]

And Kenny. Shout out, Kenny.

[C]

Kenny. Yeah, yeah, Kenny.

[A]

Because he's in that crew. He's a straight man. But it's not like he doesn't have a sense of humor. It's just someone's gotta be normal on that show.

[C]

Yeah. So when I first did my original deal, it was I. I'm looking for structure first because I don't know what this is. So I need the studio. I need to understand how business works. So, you know, I gave up. You, you know, gave up one. I gave him a YouTube channel. Right. So instead of going with Showtime, I said, you know, I convinced, you know, Underdog. Hey, listen, we can partner. You can have YouTube. I don't use this YouTube anymore. So it's like five, five years I didn't use it. So you can have that. That can be the platform. And then we can split 50, 50. All right, cool. Once I understood how everything works, part of my contract is when I'm a free agent. If I'm ever a free agent. If I'm ever a free agent, you know, I just, I get, you know, Gil's arena back. Cause it's mine, you know, my name. You can't do nothing with Gil's Arena. Like, you know what I mean? Like, so, like, you have the channel. Channel's important for you, not the name. So when my contract's up, I own 100% of Gil's arena.

[A]

When's your contract up?

[C]

June 30th. So. So. And I have my studio and I have the platform, and I already had created a channel. So every time I give a channel I'm already creating, I don't mind grinding. So I already have the next platform with the business model, and then from there it's just bringing in sponsors while I keep 100% control. But, you know, understanding the space is understanding what 2020 was. See, 2020 chances change the landscape of all things. Because of COVID Because of COVID So now you have personalities sitting at home doing the same thing. So you're watching TV, you're watching here then you go on YouTube and, man, this guy got 30,000 talking sports. What is this? Really? How, like, how much is this guy getting? Like, what does this show? How many. What is the numbers? And then I'm realizing 230,000. That's equivalent sponsors. If you're a sponsor, it would be cheaper for you to just sponsor these

[A]

shows on YouTube, having a bigger audience,

[C]

bigger audience, like, younger audience.

[A]

And also they went and looked for you. They're a more dedicated audience, too.

[C]

And that's what I understood that. So once I created the show, the algorithm, I understood where everything was going and saying that I don't have to be on espn. If I'm trending, ESPN is going to talk about it. So I'm going to be on ESPN anyway without them paying for me, because the big names is going to. They're going to respond anyway. And then if they respond, I get to respond to them. Right. So we can kind of make it a little war where I have more control because I can just pop up on anytime I want. Right? So then I realized most big names didn't have a backup plan because they wasn't on social media because they had regular. They had espn. You got tv. So you don't need Instagram or social media.

[A]

No, I was very inactive on social media, although I'm still kind of inactive.

[C]

And that's where I said, so I have an advantage over them because I can just attack them here, here, here, here. And then if they respond back, good, kudos for me. So, you know, that's how the business model.

[A]

As Rich always says, don't meet him

[B]

there, beat him there, beat him there, beat him there. Appreciate you, Gil.

[C]

No problem.

[B]

Appreciate you, man. This was just a conversation. Say, gil, pull up. He pulled up. And so we really appreciate that.

[A]

You know, you said, now we got to go do his show. We don't even know if he wants us on it.

[B]

Oh, he wants us on the show.

[C]

Trust me.

[B]

Trust me.

[C]

He wants. Oh, and I. It was you. It was you who said Shay. Shay flopping and Wimby doesn't get his calls. And what you didn't think about is this. Where Wemby is right now is where Shay used to be.

[A]

But Wemby's also not selling him to the point that she is.

[C]

No, because he's not there yet.

[A]

But the league should not reward when the league. It's not on Shay. I'm not mad at Shai. I'm mad at the refs for not calling the game. Just call the game.

[C]

But the Thing about. Do you remember Shay flopping at the Clippers or at the beginning of his career?

[A]

And.

[C]

No, no. What happens is, over time, you're like Wimby. You're getting frustrated. You're sitting there playing hard.

[A]

Sell the call.

[C]

You're playing hard. You're going through these battles.

[B]

He's going to develop it later.

[C]

He's going to develop it later. We all develop it later.

[A]

Hopefully not, but. Yeah, I hear you.

[C]

Because you got to remember, when I run in and this guy, if you look at. If you look at how Wimby's playing, he's fouled 30 times a game.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Right. As soon as he's running, the first thing I'm going to do, going to grab and hold when he starts selling these.

[A]

Right. And that's also on the refs, because you're making him do that because you

[C]

won't call the game.

[B]

I ain't flopping up out of here.

[C]

So.

[A]

By the way, I also. I opened the floodgates with the Shay flopping thing. I did the same thing with Luca. You did Luca arguing the calls.

[B]

You also did.

[A]

You know why Luca argued? Because he didn't want to run back on defense. If you watch him, it's like if you're arguing calls now it's four on five. You don't have to take your ass

[B]

down the call every time Max says something. Guys play better.

[C]

Now you know why. You know where the argument comes from. This is why we. They argue after. Because this time I really got fouled.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, right? Yeah, yeah.

[C]

I really got fouled this time. So now I want to argue.

[A]

Rich. Rich has clicked places to be, obviously.

[B]

Where are you going an hour late?

[A]

Why are you an hour late? All right, Joe and I'll just stay here. No, no, no, it's okay.

[C]

What do you mean, two hours?

[B]

Yes. Game [e-mail] we had Gilbert came over

[A]

with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul. And here's Gilbert Arenas. And now we're gonna go do Gilbert show.

[B]

And now I'm gonna do Gilbert show. The only difference is, Gil, I didn't tell you this, but yesterday's price is in today's price.

[A]

You're right.

[C]

That's. Hey, same thing I said.

[A]

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